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Living as a Sinner-Saint with Luke Kjolhaug · Ministry Minded

• 0:12
  SPEAKER_00: Hello and welcome to a brand new episode of the Ministry Minded Podcast,
• 0:15
  a show that seeks to marvel at the mercy of God that meets us
• 0:18
  in our messy
• 0:18
  SPEAKER_00: ministries.
• 0:19
  SPEAKER_00: I'm, of course, your host, Pastor Brad Gray.
• 0:22
  I serve as the Senior Pastor of Stonington Baptist Church right
• 0:24
  here in Paximus,
• 0:26
  Pennsylvania.
• 0:27
  And today I'm delighted to have on the show a fellow friend and
• 0:31
  brother in ministry,
• 0:33
  SPEAKER_00: Luke Chelog.
• 0:34
  SPEAKER_00: Luke Chelog works for Elam Lutheran Church over in Minnesota.
• 0:39
  SPEAKER_00: And this is actually,
• 0:40
  SPEAKER_00: as we're going to reveal in a few moments,
• 0:42
  this is our second attempt to get this episode recorded and
• 0:48
  mastered and shared.
• 0:49
  SPEAKER_00: The first one did not go quite as well, technical difficulties.
• 0:52
  SPEAKER_00: So in the second attempt,
• 0:54
  SPEAKER_00: though,
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  SPEAKER_00: we have just such a joy talking about pastoral ministry,
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  SPEAKER_00: the call to pastoral ministry,
• 1:01
  SPEAKER_00: and also some of the,
• 1:03
  SPEAKER_00: just the spiritual struggles that sometimes pastors go through,
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  SPEAKER_00: but also how
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  SPEAKER_00: Luke's new book,
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  SPEAKER_00: Sinner Saint,
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  SPEAKER_00: a primer on the Christian life,
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  SPEAKER_00: can be so formative and helpful,
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  SPEAKER_00: not only for pastors,
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  SPEAKER_00: but especially pastors as they preach,
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  SPEAKER_00: and then also to those to whom they preach,
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  how they can understand what it means and what it looks like to
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  live the life of
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  SPEAKER_00: faith,
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  SPEAKER_00: to live a life of sinner and saint.
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  It's that old saying that was first coined by Martin Luther,
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  simul justus et peccator,
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  which is
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  SPEAKER_00: that the paradigm that we are sinners and saints at the same time,
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  SPEAKER_00: we flesh out that reality and how it impacts the life of faith,
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  SPEAKER_00: the Christian life,
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  SPEAKER_00: the life of those who belong to the church.
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  SPEAKER_00: We also kind of explore how that paradigm...
• 1:50
  the sinner saint paradigm informs and shapes preaching and
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  pastoral care and how we
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  talk about sanctification and what it means to live as
• 1:59
  believers on a daily basis.
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  It's a paradigm that I think is so essential for understanding
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  what it means to be
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  SPEAKER_00: a Christian,
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  SPEAKER_00: what it means to be a follower of
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  SPEAKER_00: Christ.
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  SPEAKER_00: So we talk all about that.
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  SPEAKER_00: We talk about some of his history,
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  SPEAKER_00: some of the biblical basis for it,
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  SPEAKER_00: and then we talk about how to bring it into daily life.
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  SPEAKER_00: So I hope you'll enjoy this episode.
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  SPEAKER_00: It was a delight to have Luke on.
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  SPEAKER_00: He's such a great thinker and writer,
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  and I'm really pleased that we were able to get this episode
• 2:33
  finally recorded and
• 2:34
  SPEAKER_00: mastered and shared to you.
• 2:36
  SPEAKER_00: So hopefully you enjoy listening to it
• 2:38
  SPEAKER_00: And so,
• 2:39
  SPEAKER_00: yeah,
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  SPEAKER_00: sit back,
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  SPEAKER_00: relax,
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  SPEAKER_00: and enjoy as Luke and I take off talking about the center saint paradigm.
• 2:46
  Well,
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  thanks for joining us on another episode of the Ministry Minded
• 2:49
  Podcast.
• 2:49
  I'm so glad to have my friend and colleague in ministry in many
• 2:54
  ways,
• 2:54
  Luke Kellogg.
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  SPEAKER_00: I think I got your name right this time.
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  SPEAKER_01: I think you did too.
• 2:58
  I don't really keep track anymore because I've heard every
• 3:00
  possible pronunciation.
• 3:02
  SPEAKER_00: You've heard a lot of different ways, I think, to pronounce that.
• 3:05
  SPEAKER_00: But anyways, I'm so glad we can make this work.
• 3:08
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you for being flexible.
• 3:11
  SPEAKER_00: I'll just let everyone know.
• 3:12
  This is our second attempt,
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  so hopefully we don't have to do a third attempt.
• 3:18
  SPEAKER_00: Technical difficulties on the first one.
• 3:20
  SPEAKER_00: But man, I'm so glad to have you on the podcast today.
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  There's so much that I want to talk about,
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  but I'm so glad that we can sit down and just chat.
• 3:27
  SPEAKER_00: So it's also really good to get to know you better.
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  SPEAKER_00: I've loved reading your writing on 1517 and other places.
• 3:33
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, thanks, man.
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  SPEAKER_00: But let's just start right there.
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  SPEAKER_00: Let's just start by, if you can, just introduce yourself and
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  SPEAKER_00: And kind of where you are,
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  SPEAKER_00: where God has you,
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  and just kind of tell us about your family and your ministry
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  and what's been
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  SPEAKER_00: keeping you busy lately.
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  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, you bet.
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  SPEAKER_01: Happy to.
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  SPEAKER_01: And an honor to be on this podcast.
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  I've benefited from some of your previous interviews and lots
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  of really good stuff
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  SPEAKER_01: you're putting out here.
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  SPEAKER_01: So, yeah.
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  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, you bet.
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  SPEAKER_01: My name is Luke Chelhog,
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  SPEAKER_01: and I'm the pastor at Elam Lutheran Church in Osakis,
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  SPEAKER_01: Minnesota,
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  SPEAKER_01: which is about two hours west of Minneapolis-St.
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  SPEAKER_01: Paul area.
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  SPEAKER_01: You just hop on the interstate, I-94, and head west, our town.
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  SPEAKER_01: If you blink, you might miss it.
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  SPEAKER_01: There's, like, 1,800 people in our town.
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  SPEAKER_01: Over the summertime,
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  it swells up quite a bit because it's sort of one of those lake
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  towns where you
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  SPEAKER_01: get—it's a good-sized lake,
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  SPEAKER_01: so,
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  SPEAKER_01: like,
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  SPEAKER_01: there's lots of cabins pretty much all around the lake,
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  SPEAKER_01: and the population,
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  SPEAKER_01: I don't know,
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  SPEAKER_01: doubles,
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  SPEAKER_01: triples,
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  SPEAKER_01: quadruples over the summer.
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  SPEAKER_01: But—
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  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I am a pastor here at Elam.
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  SPEAKER_01: I've been here four years now.
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  So prior to that,
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  I was in Princeton,
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  New Jersey for four and a half years out there.
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  I'm ordained in a denomination known as the Church of the
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  Lutheran Brethren,
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  SPEAKER_01: which if you haven't heard of it.
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  SPEAKER_01: you are not alone in that.
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  SPEAKER_01: There are about 110 churches throughout the whole United States.
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  SPEAKER_01: So we're not Plymouth Brethren.
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  SPEAKER_01: That's a different thing.
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  SPEAKER_01: We're the Lutheran Brethren.
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  SPEAKER_01: But it is interesting.
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  SPEAKER_01: We're tiny in the United States,
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  SPEAKER_01: but you go over to Africa and it's like,
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  SPEAKER_01: I don't know the numbers,
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  SPEAKER_01: but it's like,
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  SPEAKER_01: I think thousands of churches over there in Cameroon.
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  SPEAKER_01: So kind of like we've had, our denomination has always had a big
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  uh,
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  like mission work has always been in our DNA since the very
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  beginning.
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  SPEAKER_01: So, um, yeah.
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  SPEAKER_01: And the ministry is kind of a second career path for me.
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  SPEAKER_01: I was actually a civil engineer for, uh, four years.
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  SPEAKER_01: So I guess there's something about this four year thing,
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  SPEAKER_01: four years,
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  SPEAKER_01: engineer,
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  SPEAKER_01: four years in Princeton,
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  SPEAKER_01: four years here so far.
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  SPEAKER_01: So, uh, yeah, but just was, was doing all that.
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  SPEAKER_01: Um,
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  SPEAKER_01: but had the sense that God was maybe calling me to something different.
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  SPEAKER_01: And I always just,
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  SPEAKER_01: my step into seminary was more like,
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  SPEAKER_01: you know,
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  I've always just wanted to understand more why it is I believe
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  what I believe.
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  SPEAKER_01: It wasn't so much,
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  SPEAKER_01: oh,
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  SPEAKER_01: you're going to get a lightning strike and be a pastor,
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  SPEAKER_01: that sort of divine revelation that some people will talk about.
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  SPEAKER_01: And I appreciate that, but my story is a little bit different.
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  SPEAKER_01: It was more just like,
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  SPEAKER_01: if I even use this degree to help raise a family,
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  SPEAKER_01: it will have been worth it because
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  SPEAKER_01: man, what a blessing, what a benefit that could be.
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  SPEAKER_01: So yeah, I took my first baby steps into seminary.
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  And then,
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  yeah,
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  just like little by little,
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  I guess God kind of confirmed my call to ministry.
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  He got me plugged into a local country church out there while I
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  was attending seminary.
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  SPEAKER_01: Actually,
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  SPEAKER_01: it's funny that the very first day that I attended this church,
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  SPEAKER_01: they asked me if I would teach Sunday school,
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  SPEAKER_01: which like,
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  SPEAKER_01: You know, as a visitor, you're showing up church first time.
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  You're supposed to,
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  like,
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  give them a little bit of time to warm up,
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  sort of.
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  SPEAKER_01: But they asked me to do that,
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  SPEAKER_01: and I just – from there,
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  it kind of snowballed into leading services and teaching
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  confirmation classes and
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  SPEAKER_01: eventually –
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  SPEAKER_01: Preaching,
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  SPEAKER_01: which used to be,
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  SPEAKER_01: to me,
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  SPEAKER_01: I don't know how it has been for you,
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  SPEAKER_01: but for me,
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  SPEAKER_01: preaching was always like,
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  looking at that microphone was like staring down the barrel of
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  a loaded gun.
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  SPEAKER_01: And it's kind of totally flipped.
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  SPEAKER_01: Like now, if I couldn't preach, I wouldn't want to be a pastor.
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  SPEAKER_01: Not because I just like,
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  SPEAKER_01: you know,
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  SPEAKER_01: love the public speaking aspect,
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  but more I get to go to God's word and discover all these
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  treasures and like
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  put them out in front of you like look what's here so yeah oh i
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  can resonate with
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  that a lot yeah yeah that's that's one of the things like i i
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  would resonate with
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  SPEAKER_00: that just because i enjoy preaching like that's like one of the most
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  SPEAKER_00: comfortable spaces I could be in, which is behind the pulpit.
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  SPEAKER_00: And I,
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  SPEAKER_00: I,
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  SPEAKER_00: yes,
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  SPEAKER_00: if I couldn't do that,
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  SPEAKER_00: I would,
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  SPEAKER_00: it would be very difficult for me to be in this position.
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  SPEAKER_00: And, um, yeah, that's, that's the thing.
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  Like we get to saturate ourselves and all of these great riches
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  and theological truths.
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  SPEAKER_00: And then we get to get to sort of,
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  SPEAKER_00: I always resonate with that,
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  SPEAKER_00: that,
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  SPEAKER_00: that fresco,
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  SPEAKER_00: that painting,
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  SPEAKER_00: out of the Reformation where, you know, it's like Luther pointing.
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  SPEAKER_00: And it looks at first like he's pointing to the congregation,
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  SPEAKER_00: but then in the middle is Christ crucified.
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  SPEAKER_00: And it kind of like that is a great paradigm for pastoral ministry,
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  SPEAKER_00: for preaching ministry,
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  is like always directing the gaze of the people in the pews
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  towards the one who
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  SPEAKER_00: died and rose again for them.
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  SPEAKER_00: So that's really interesting.
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  SPEAKER_00: It's just really profound and powerful that God would,
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  SPEAKER_00: you know,
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  SPEAKER_00: choose people like us to do that.
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  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
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  SPEAKER_01: You were kind of born into it a little bit, right?
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  SPEAKER_01: Like, isn't the pastoral legacy part of your past?
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  SPEAKER_01: Like your dad was a pastor or is a pastor?
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  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
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  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
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  SPEAKER_00: My dad is a pastor.
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  SPEAKER_00: He's been a pastor for about 30 years.
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  SPEAKER_00: And then before that, my granddad, his dad was a pastor too.
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  SPEAKER_00: He passed away in 2016, but he was, he was a pastor for, oh gosh.
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  SPEAKER_00: probably 50 years in a lot of different capacities,
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  SPEAKER_00: a lot of places in the South,
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  SPEAKER_00: Southeast,
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  SPEAKER_00: North Carolina,
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  SPEAKER_00: South Carolina areas.
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  SPEAKER_00: So, yeah, it's kind of like in my DNA.
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  I joke all the time that,
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  you know,
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  as a good Baptist,
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  I grew up in Sunday schools.
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  SPEAKER_00: So you go.
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  But I resonate with your story only because in a lot of other
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  ways,
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  too,
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  just because I was
• 9:36
  SPEAKER_00: in the secular field.
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  SPEAKER_00: Like I knew that ministry would be in my future,
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  SPEAKER_00: but for a long while I was working in the business world,
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  SPEAKER_00: if you will.
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  SPEAKER_00: And so can I just talk about that a little bit,
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  SPEAKER_00: if you can,
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  SPEAKER_00: just like,
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  SPEAKER_00: what was like the juncture?
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  SPEAKER_00: Like what was like where you were at a crossroads?
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  SPEAKER_00: Maybe it was a gradual thing or maybe I think you hinted at it.
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  SPEAKER_00: It could have been a sudden thing,
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  SPEAKER_00: but like what,
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  SPEAKER_00: what kind of like was like,
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  SPEAKER_00: man,
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  SPEAKER_00: this is,
• 10:01
  SPEAKER_00: this is where God is calling me.
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  SPEAKER_00: And it's a totally different direction.
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  SPEAKER_00: Can you kind of talk about that?
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  SPEAKER_01: Yeah,
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  SPEAKER_01: it was funny the way that it came about,
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  SPEAKER_01: too,
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  SPEAKER_01: because I think God,
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  SPEAKER_01: he uses a lot of different ways to get our attention,
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  SPEAKER_01: to point us in different directions.
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  SPEAKER_01: And for me,
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  it was really just a sense of discontent and discomfort with
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  where I was at,
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  like with the work I was doing as an engineer and the way I was
• 10:28
  spending my time.
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  It wasn't that the work wasn't important to me,
• 10:32
  it doesn't matter anymore,
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  but it was more...
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  I don't know,
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  just a general kind of sense of like,
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  I've got something else for you to do.
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  And I know that maybe that sounds a little bit too ethereal or
• 10:47
  whatever,
• 10:47
  but it was that.
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  SPEAKER_01: It was conversations like with a pastor mentor friend that I had.
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  SPEAKER_01: I talked with him and he was like, hey, have you ever considered this?
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  SPEAKER_01: Have you ever thought about going to seminary?
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  SPEAKER_01: And he's like, no, I really haven't.
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  SPEAKER_01: And so it was other people definitely affirming those gifts, but
• 11:06
  I would say,
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  too,
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  I was at a pretty low point mental health-wise in that stage of
• 11:12
  my life.
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  Like,
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  anxiety and depression have been demons that I've certainly
• 11:18
  battled throughout my life.
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  SPEAKER_01: And at that point in my life,
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  SPEAKER_01: it kind of felt like,
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  SPEAKER_01: well,
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  SPEAKER_01: it didn't feel like it was really a low point.
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  SPEAKER_01: And so God,
• 11:29
  SPEAKER_01: like,
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  SPEAKER_01: almost used that as the cross to,
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  SPEAKER_01: like,
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  SPEAKER_01: prod me,
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  SPEAKER_01: I don't know,
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  SPEAKER_01: in this different direction.
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  SPEAKER_01: So yeah, that was kind of how that played out.
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  SPEAKER_00: And what has been some of like, yeah, you're four years into ministry.
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  SPEAKER_00: So I don't want to be like, what's your, your life lesson.
• 11:46
  SPEAKER_00: But if you're talking to other,
• 11:48
  SPEAKER_00: like you're,
• 11:49
  SPEAKER_00: you're,
• 11:49
  you're a little bit older in terms of like how you've gotten
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  into ministry.
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  So if you could talk to like some young guys who are aspiring
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  towards that or that
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  SPEAKER_00: are seeking that out,
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  SPEAKER_00: what,
• 12:00
  SPEAKER_00: what,
• 12:00
  SPEAKER_00: what,
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  SPEAKER_00: what are,
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  SPEAKER_00: what's some,
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  advice or maybe some honest truths that you could give them as
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  they're like going
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  SPEAKER_00: towards that or like aspiring towards that position?
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  SPEAKER_01: Well, no pressure there.
• 12:17
  SPEAKER_01: I'll put you on the spot, Luke.
• 12:19
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I guess so.
• 12:20
  SPEAKER_01: Well, I would say first, I have been in ministry for about 10 years now.
• 12:27
  SPEAKER_01: So it's four years here, four years in my past parish, and then
• 12:30
  SPEAKER_01: Two years while I was in seminary.
• 12:31
  SPEAKER_01: So about 10 years.
• 12:32
  SPEAKER_01: So I'm in the double digits at least.
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  SPEAKER_01: This isn't my first rodeo.
• 12:35
  SPEAKER_01: This isn't my second rodeo.
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  SPEAKER_01: Lessons that I've kind of learned along the way.
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  SPEAKER_01: I think there's no wasted season of life.
• 12:45
  SPEAKER_01: I think it's a myth that there's these kind of liminal spaces.
• 12:51
  I think it's a myth that there is even such a thing as an
• 12:54
  in-between time.
• 12:55
  SPEAKER_01: I think it can certainly feel that way and life can feel
• 13:00
  SPEAKER_01: in certain seasons,
• 13:01
  SPEAKER_01: like you're in the middle of a waiting room and you're waiting for,
• 13:04
  SPEAKER_01: um,
• 13:06
  SPEAKER_01: God to act,
• 13:07
  or you're waiting for the next big thing that's going to happen
• 13:09
  around the corner.
• 13:10
  SPEAKER_01: But I think,
• 13:12
  I think the reality is that God is just as present with us in
• 13:15
  those liminal spaces,
• 13:18
  SPEAKER_01: quote unquote,
• 13:18
  SPEAKER_01: liminal spaces,
• 13:19
  SPEAKER_01: which aren't really that,
• 13:20
  SPEAKER_01: um,
• 13:21
  SPEAKER_01: to work,
• 13:21
  SPEAKER_01: to mold us and to shape us and to,
• 13:23
  SPEAKER_01: um,
• 13:25
  SPEAKER_01: to sanctify us.
• 13:26
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 13:27
  SPEAKER_01: Um,
• 13:28
  SPEAKER_01: So I don't know.
• 13:28
  SPEAKER_01: I get,
• 13:29
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 13:29
  SPEAKER_01: it's,
• 13:29
  SPEAKER_01: it is always,
• 13:30
  it's just easy to be wondering what's the next big thing that's
• 13:35
  going to happen.
• 13:36
  SPEAKER_01: But it's honestly like the more,
• 13:37
  SPEAKER_01: the little things in,
• 13:39
  SPEAKER_01: in the present and just rejecting the lie that God is,
• 13:44
  is not present here or that this season is somehow of lesser
• 13:47
  importance than
• 13:49
  SPEAKER_01: whatever season he's leading me towards.
• 13:50
  SPEAKER_01: So that's more general life advice,
• 13:52
  SPEAKER_01: I guess,
• 13:53
  SPEAKER_01: than like to pastor specifically,
• 13:54
  SPEAKER_01: but I don't know if that makes sense.
• 13:56
  SPEAKER_00: No,
• 13:56
  SPEAKER_00: it does,
• 13:57
  SPEAKER_00: because there are clearly seasons of ministry that people go through,
• 14:01
  SPEAKER_00: not just as ministers,
• 14:03
  SPEAKER_00: but as we could say parishioners,
• 14:05
  SPEAKER_00: but especially ministers going through times of great fulfillment,
• 14:10
  SPEAKER_00: times of tedium,
• 14:11
  SPEAKER_00: and every emotion in between.
• 14:13
  SPEAKER_00: And preparing for that veritable rollercoaster of ministerial emotion or
• 14:20
  SPEAKER_00: expectation is not always one that's easy to navigate,
• 14:23
  SPEAKER_00: number one,
• 14:24
  SPEAKER_00: but it's also not always one that's
• 14:27
  SPEAKER_00: that you feel well prepared for.
• 14:29
  Um,
• 14:30
  and I think I,
• 14:32
  I,
• 14:33
  I just finished my master's and I feel really grateful for
• 14:35
  that.
• 14:36
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm not going to speak ill of seminary training by any stretch of the
• 14:40
  SPEAKER_00: imagination,
• 14:40
  but there's so much of ministry that you don't know or know how
• 14:44
  to handle until
• 14:45
  SPEAKER_00: you're in it.
• 14:46
  SPEAKER_00: You're in the thick of it.
• 14:47
  SPEAKER_00: So there's a lot of like baptism by fire.
• 14:51
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 14:51
  SPEAKER_00: And in so many ways, a hundred percent, but I'm,
• 14:56
  SPEAKER_00: I'm really thankful for it.
• 14:57
  SPEAKER_00: And yeah, it's always great to hear how God uses those situations.
• 15:03
  SPEAKER_00: Like what is,
• 15:04
  what would you say is like a season that you can say that God
• 15:08
  really has used to
• 15:10
  SPEAKER_00: form you or maybe like your,
• 15:13
  SPEAKER_00: like something that you're really inclined to be like,
• 15:17
  SPEAKER_00: this is kind of where I'm going to stake my ministerial bent,
• 15:21
  SPEAKER_00: if you will.
• 15:21
  SPEAKER_00: Cause I think we all have that to some degree,
• 15:23
  SPEAKER_00: but like,
• 15:23
  SPEAKER_00: is there a season of life where you'd be like,
• 15:25
  SPEAKER_00: This is how God was forming me.
• 15:28
  SPEAKER_01: Like more theologically you're talking?
• 15:30
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 15:30
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 15:31
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 15:35
  SPEAKER_01: I would say that that probably happened.
• 15:37
  SPEAKER_01: You talked about trial by fire, my very first call.
• 15:39
  SPEAKER_01: And I think this is the way that it is for most pastors.
• 15:43
  SPEAKER_01: Your first call is like, it's like bootcamp, right?
• 15:46
  SPEAKER_01: Like it's a, it's a wonderful thing.
• 15:48
  SPEAKER_01: It's a, it's a, an exciting time in your life.
• 15:50
  SPEAKER_01: It's an adventure.
• 15:51
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 15:51
  SPEAKER_01: But also boot camp is not something you want to be like,
• 15:54
  SPEAKER_01: oh man,
• 15:55
  SPEAKER_01: I love,
• 15:55
  SPEAKER_01: I just,
• 15:57
  SPEAKER_01: my memories of boot camp,
• 15:58
  SPEAKER_01: like best thing ever.
• 15:59
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 16:02
  SPEAKER_01: So I kind of look at my first calling like that.
• 16:05
  SPEAKER_01: I learned a lot of things,
• 16:07
  but it was during my time there that I was introduced to the
• 16:10
  ministry of 1517 and
• 16:13
  SPEAKER_01: Mockingbird,
• 16:14
  SPEAKER_01: which have become influences in my life,
• 16:18
  SPEAKER_01: not just theologically,
• 16:19
  SPEAKER_01: but pastorally.
• 16:21
  I think they've given me a vocabulary to talk about the
• 16:28
  subjective aspect of my
• 16:32
  SPEAKER_01: life and faith and all that,
• 16:33
  SPEAKER_01: and kind of given me permission to do that.
• 16:39
  SPEAKER_01: I think sometimes in the Reformational traditions,
• 16:42
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 16:44
  SPEAKER_01: Baptist,
• 16:45
  SPEAKER_01: Reformed,
• 16:45
  SPEAKER_01: Presbyterian,
• 16:46
  SPEAKER_01: I'm from Lutheran,
• 16:48
  SPEAKER_01: I think sometimes there is
• 16:51
  um and uneasiness when we talk about feelings emotions things
• 16:56
  like that and i
• 16:57
  understand why and i think that to a degree is rightly so but i
• 17:01
  also don't think
• 17:01
  the alternative is intrinsically looking upon those with
• 17:06
  skepticism um i think
• 17:09
  that's right like when the gospel hits it hits sometimes your
• 17:13
  head sometimes your
• 17:14
  SPEAKER_01: heart sometimes your body like um
• 17:17
  SPEAKER_01: And it's OK and good to affirm that.
• 17:19
  SPEAKER_01: So I think life is right.
• 17:21
  SPEAKER_01: Life is lived subjectively.
• 17:23
  SPEAKER_01: It's not lived objectively.
• 17:25
  The truths of Scripture and the eternal truths of God and his
• 17:30
  word and his grace,
• 17:31
  SPEAKER_01: those are certain objective mainstays.
• 17:34
  But coming to understand,
• 17:35
  man,
• 17:35
  like those have traction in my everyday life.
• 17:39
  SPEAKER_01: So I think during that period,
• 17:40
  I was really introduced to the power of grace in a way that had
• 17:45
  never really hit me
• 17:46
  SPEAKER_01: before.
• 17:49
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah,
• 17:49
  I would echo something similar just because I've benefited from
• 17:51
  so many that are
• 17:53
  SPEAKER_00: within that sphere,
• 17:54
  SPEAKER_00: Mockingbird 1517 sphere,
• 17:56
  SPEAKER_00: and it has a lot of different extensions.
• 17:59
  SPEAKER_00: And growing up in a more Baptistic tradition,
• 18:03
  SPEAKER_00: there was a lot of things that I hadn't grown up with,
• 18:06
  SPEAKER_00: like distinction on long gospel and those sorts of things.
• 18:08
  SPEAKER_00: And so, quote unquote, discovering that was really formative for me.
• 18:13
  SPEAKER_00: And I look back on
• 18:15
  coming across some of those things coming across the writings
• 18:18
  of Robert Capon and
• 18:18
  SPEAKER_00: others and,
• 18:20
  SPEAKER_00: um,
• 18:21
  SPEAKER_00: diving into the theology of Luther,
• 18:23
  SPEAKER_00: not just from,
• 18:25
  SPEAKER_00: or looking at it from a distance.
• 18:26
  SPEAKER_00: Um, all of that was really formative for me.
• 18:29
  SPEAKER_00: So I go back to like those it's,
• 18:32
  SPEAKER_00: it kind of all occurred,
• 18:33
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 18:33
  at that cliche age and era when you're in college and you're
• 18:38
  exploring what you
• 18:39
  SPEAKER_00: believe and all those sorts of things.
• 18:40
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm, I'm really grateful to have been given
• 18:45
  SPEAKER_00: somewhat of like a leash,
• 18:48
  SPEAKER_00: like a longer leash to kind of,
• 18:51
  SPEAKER_00: uh,
• 18:52
  SPEAKER_00: mess up theologically or to like,
• 18:55
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 18:55
  SPEAKER_00: kind of think out loud.
• 18:56
  Like that's initially when I started writing online,
• 18:59
  it was really because of that.
• 19:00
  I didn't have a ministerial outlet and,
• 19:03
  but I w I was diving into all these different things.
• 19:06
  I have to think out loud about this theologically about these
• 19:10
  new things that I'm discovering.
• 19:12
  SPEAKER_00: And so that's kind of what it was and it's just built and built.
• 19:15
  SPEAKER_00: And so I'm really grateful for that.
• 19:17
  SPEAKER_00: And,
• 19:17
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 19:17
  SPEAKER_00: the Lord is just really leading me into,
• 19:19
  SPEAKER_00: yeah,
• 19:21
  SPEAKER_00: I just,
• 19:22
  SPEAKER_00: I'm really happy to wait in the reformational waters and just be like,
• 19:24
  SPEAKER_00: this is where I'm going to be.
• 19:25
  SPEAKER_00: And there's so many things that are offshoots of that.
• 19:28
  SPEAKER_00: So yeah,
• 19:29
  SPEAKER_00: anyways,
• 19:29
  and it brings me to different places and connects me to folks
• 19:33
  like yourself and
• 19:34
  SPEAKER_00: which is just,
• 19:35
  SPEAKER_00: to me,
• 19:35
  SPEAKER_00: it's awesome.
• 19:35
  It's like just building the body of Christ in a way that like,
• 19:38
  it's so encouraging to me.
• 19:40
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 19:41
  SPEAKER_01: How did you first get exposed to some of this?
• 19:42
  Was it like a friend introduced you or you just kind of ran
• 19:45
  across it online?
• 19:46
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 19:47
  So back in the day,
• 19:49
  I used to be on Twitter and,
• 19:52
  you know,
• 19:52
  I'm not on there anymore,
• 19:54
  thankfully.
• 19:56
  SPEAKER_00: But and if you are, it's fine.
• 19:58
  SPEAKER_00: But I used to be on there.
• 20:01
  SPEAKER_00: And I remember one time I'd been doing I'd been,
• 20:05
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 20:05
  SPEAKER_00: writing for a bunch of different other areas and places.
• 20:08
  SPEAKER_00: But Dan Price reached out to me and was like,
• 20:10
  SPEAKER_00: you should do some stuff.
• 20:11
  SPEAKER_00: Back then it was Christ Hold Fast.
• 20:14
  SPEAKER_00: And so back in the day, the OG days.
• 20:17
  SPEAKER_00: And so that was back in 2016.
• 20:19
  SPEAKER_00: So yeah, over nine years ago, I started writing for them.
• 20:25
  And then soon after that,
• 20:26
  Dave's all reached out and asked the same thing for
• 20:29
  Mockingbird.
• 20:30
  SPEAKER_00: So I've been just connected with them.
• 20:31
  SPEAKER_00: And it's just been really great because even though there's
• 20:35
  you know,
• 20:35
  like little differences here and there between myself and
• 20:38
  others.
• 20:38
  SPEAKER_00: It's just,
• 20:39
  I love to wait in these waters and I love to stretch my
• 20:44
  theological horizons and
• 20:45
  SPEAKER_00: then also do so in a way that I can build up the body of Christ.
• 20:48
  SPEAKER_00: Cause that's kind of what I'm all about.
• 20:50
  SPEAKER_00: Like,
• 20:50
  SPEAKER_00: that's what I want to be known for is not just my own little corner,
• 20:54
  SPEAKER_00: but like,
• 20:54
  SPEAKER_00: let's,
• 20:55
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 20:55
  SPEAKER_00: let's,
• 20:56
  SPEAKER_00: uh,
• 20:56
  SPEAKER_00: let's continue encouraging the body together.
• 20:58
  SPEAKER_00: Cause that's, uh, that's who we are.
• 21:00
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 21:00
  SPEAKER_01: That's awesome.
• 21:02
  SPEAKER_00: So, uh,
• 21:04
  SPEAKER_00: Now we can say that you're not only Luke the pastor,
• 21:08
  SPEAKER_00: you are Luke the author,
• 21:09
  SPEAKER_00: which is what I want to talk about.
• 21:10
  SPEAKER_00: Luke the writer, the professional writer now.
• 21:13
  Let's talk about your book,
• 21:15
  Sinner and Saint,
• 21:16
  a surprising primer for the Christian life.
• 21:19
  I'm roughly about three quarters of the way through because I'm
• 21:24
  very undisciplined
• 21:24
  SPEAKER_00: when it comes to reading.
• 21:27
  I just buy new books and then I read those without finishing
• 21:31
  the ones I already have.
• 21:32
  SPEAKER_00: So I'm really bad at that.
• 21:35
  SPEAKER_00: But I've been thrilled by your book.
• 21:37
  SPEAKER_00: I've been really enjoying reading it.
• 21:40
  SPEAKER_00: But let's just kind of talk about Sinner and Sinner Saint,
• 21:44
  SPEAKER_00: talk about what kind of prompted this,
• 21:47
  but also kind of like what the premise is and how do you think
• 21:53
  or how do you hope
• 21:54
  SPEAKER_00: that it is used by the church,
• 21:56
  SPEAKER_00: if you will?
• 21:59
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 21:59
  SPEAKER_01: So the origin story of the book,
• 22:01
  SPEAKER_01: I guess,
• 22:02
  SPEAKER_01: was a talk that I gave at a 1517 book launch event for Gretchen Ranovic,
• 22:10
  who wrote a book called Ragged Spiritual Disciplines for the
• 22:12
  Spiritually Exhausted,
• 22:13
  SPEAKER_01: which everyone should read if you haven't.
• 22:16
  SPEAKER_01: It's a phenomenal book.
• 22:18
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 22:20
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 22:20
  SPEAKER_01: So I got to give a talk at that conference.
• 22:22
  SPEAKER_01: They asked me to speak on sinner saint on this paradigm, which
• 22:27
  SPEAKER_01: is also known as the simul, simul eustis et picator.
• 22:32
  SPEAKER_01: I don't think I'm pronouncing that right, but that's like the Latin.
• 22:36
  SPEAKER_01: That's how the layman pronounce it, I guess, and I am a layman.
• 22:42
  SPEAKER_01: So it basically,
• 22:43
  SPEAKER_01: it's a phrase that came out of the Reformation,
• 22:46
  SPEAKER_01: Luther's commentary on Galatians,
• 22:48
  SPEAKER_01: but then also his commentary on Romans,
• 22:50
  SPEAKER_01: and Jean Hus,
• 22:52
  SPEAKER_01: who 150 years earlier,
• 22:55
  SPEAKER_01: he had used something similar,
• 22:57
  SPEAKER_01: and
• 22:57
  SPEAKER_01: The idea itself has been around since Augustine and Paul and all this.
• 23:01
  SPEAKER_01: It's just more of a formal way of codifying it.
• 23:04
  SPEAKER_01: So what the symbol really is,
• 23:06
  SPEAKER_01: this idea that it says that we are simultaneously sinners and saints or
• 23:13
  SPEAKER_01: simultaneously sinful and righteous.
• 23:17
  SPEAKER_01: I've heard it also said at one and the same time, just and sinful.
• 23:24
  SPEAKER_01: So there's a number of different ways you can kind of talk about it, but
• 23:28
  SPEAKER_01: the idea is that Christians,
• 23:31
  SPEAKER_01: like our identity,
• 23:33
  SPEAKER_01: as we are redeemed by Christ,
• 23:36
  SPEAKER_01: as we come to faith,
• 23:39
  SPEAKER_01: we are made new creations,
• 23:41
  SPEAKER_01: right?
• 23:43
  SPEAKER_01: But the old is gone, the new has come.
• 23:45
  SPEAKER_01: But the old nature is still there with us as well.
• 23:48
  SPEAKER_01: And that old nature is very strong, our old sin nature.
• 23:53
  SPEAKER_01: And so it wants what it wants.
• 23:55
  SPEAKER_01: Our old nature does.
• 23:56
  SPEAKER_01: Our new nature wants us.
• 23:58
  SPEAKER_01: what it wants.
• 23:59
  SPEAKER_01: It seeks after the things of the Lord.
• 24:01
  SPEAKER_01: So the simul and saint sinner,
• 24:05
  SPEAKER_01: this is just a way of expressing that twin reality,
• 24:09
  SPEAKER_01: I think,
• 24:11
  SPEAKER_01: that as Christians,
• 24:13
  SPEAKER_01: we are at the same time completely sinful.
• 24:16
  SPEAKER_01: We're not partial sinners.
• 24:18
  We're not 12% sinful and then 13 or 11,
• 24:22
  hopefully you're going the other way,
• 24:24
  11%
• 24:25
  SPEAKER_01: The next day, it's not a mathematical reality.
• 24:28
  SPEAKER_01: It's just when God forgives,
• 24:31
  SPEAKER_01: which we need forgiveness every day,
• 24:32
  SPEAKER_01: he does so not in part,
• 24:34
  SPEAKER_01: but in whole.
• 24:34
  SPEAKER_01: So it's a way of saying we are completely sinful,
• 24:38
  SPEAKER_01: daily in need of God's grace,
• 24:41
  SPEAKER_01: based on the fact that you look at the way we live our lives,
• 24:45
  and even our best motivations are tainted by mixed motives and
• 24:50
  things like that.
• 24:52
  SPEAKER_01: So that's the sinner side.
• 24:53
  SPEAKER_01: But then the greater reality,
• 24:54
  the reality of the saint is ultimately our final and eternal
• 25:01
  reality because it's
• 25:02
  what God declares to be true about us because of what Christ
• 25:05
  has done for us.
• 25:06
  SPEAKER_01: So when God looks at you,
• 25:08
  SPEAKER_01: Brad,
• 25:08
  SPEAKER_01: when he looks at me,
• 25:11
  SPEAKER_01: his beloved child,
• 25:12
  SPEAKER_01: he declares us to be forgiven.
• 25:15
  He declares us to be perfect and to be clothed in his perfect
• 25:18
  righteousness.
• 25:19
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 25:22
  SPEAKER_01: in a sense,
• 25:22
  SPEAKER_01: that identity is more ultimate,
• 25:25
  SPEAKER_01: it's more lasting,
• 25:25
  SPEAKER_01: and it kind of supersedes the sinner identity,
• 25:29
  SPEAKER_01: even though that sinner is...
• 25:31
  SPEAKER_01: It's still there,
• 25:32
  SPEAKER_01: and it clings to us until our dying day.
• 25:35
  So that's sort of the symbol in a nutshell,
• 25:38
  at one and the same time,
• 25:39
  sinner.
• 25:41
  SPEAKER_00: I think it's such a helpful paradigm because it...
• 25:44
  SPEAKER_00: I think this is maybe what people might be confused at first,
• 25:50
  SPEAKER_00: is that it almost...
• 25:52
  SPEAKER_00: It's an explanation of what is,
• 25:55
  and it kind of reminds me of like what Luther does in the
• 25:57
  Heidelberg Disputation
• 25:59
  SPEAKER_00: where he talks about the theology of the cross,
• 26:00
  SPEAKER_00: which is a theology of the cross allows us to call a thing what it is.
• 26:05
  And I think that that's what the simile is in a lot of ways is
• 26:08
  you're not,
• 26:10
  we're not trying to find excuses for the fact that we keep
• 26:13
  messing up or we're not
• 26:16
  SPEAKER_00: trying to find some other,
• 26:17
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 26:18
  SPEAKER_00: carrot of motivation to make us perform better.
• 26:22
  SPEAKER_00: Actually,
• 26:22
  SPEAKER_00: we are able to call ourselves what we are,
• 26:27
  SPEAKER_00: which is we are simultaneously at the same time just and yet full of sin.
• 26:31
  SPEAKER_00: And as you said,
• 26:33
  SPEAKER_00: and I think rightly so,
• 26:34
  SPEAKER_00: this is not something that we can make mathematical sense of.
• 26:38
  SPEAKER_00: And that's sort of the point.
• 26:40
  We,
• 26:41
  by faith,
• 26:42
  we are brought into the shadow of Christ,
• 26:45
  and thank God that that's...
• 26:47
  SPEAKER_00: where our identity lies,
• 26:49
  SPEAKER_00: but we still feel this pull,
• 26:51
  SPEAKER_00: this nagging draw,
• 26:53
  SPEAKER_00: like a magnet,
• 26:54
  SPEAKER_00: like a fly towards the light.
• 26:56
  We are drawn towards lust,
• 26:59
  towards sin,
• 27:00
  towards vice,
• 27:01
  whatever you want to insert there.
• 27:03
  SPEAKER_00: We are drawn towards that.
• 27:05
  And trying to explain that sometimes I think in other
• 27:09
  traditions that may have not
• 27:11
  SPEAKER_00: have this,
• 27:12
  may not have the symbol as part of their faith or part of their
• 27:15
  tradition,
• 27:16
  SPEAKER_00: they would come up with other reasons why that's the case.
• 27:19
  SPEAKER_00: Well, maybe you're not memorizing the Bible enough.
• 27:21
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe you're not doing this, that, or the other thing enough.
• 27:24
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe you should wake up earlier to have your quiet time with God.
• 27:28
  SPEAKER_00: And again,
• 27:29
  SPEAKER_00: not trying to disparage those disciplines,
• 27:31
  SPEAKER_00: but there is a difference in terms of explaining this nagging poll,
• 27:36
  why it would be so much easier for us to just sit on the couch
• 27:40
  and eat potato chips
• 27:41
  SPEAKER_00: and not read our Bibles.
• 27:43
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 27:44
  SPEAKER_00: So why is that?
• 27:45
  SPEAKER_00: Well,
• 27:45
  it's because there's this sinner side that coexists with who we
• 27:49
  are in Christ,
• 27:50
  SPEAKER_00: which is saints.
• 27:51
  And I think that's why I've found the symbol to be so helpful
• 27:55
  because it is an
• 27:57
  explanatory paradigm of this is who we are right now in this
• 28:04
  already but not yet
• 28:05
  SPEAKER_00: reality that we live in.
• 28:07
  SPEAKER_00: We are already justified, but not fully.
• 28:09
  SPEAKER_00: And we are not fully glorified.
• 28:13
  SPEAKER_00: We are not fully...
• 28:14
  made into the image of Christ,
• 28:16
  but we long and look forward to that day when we are.
• 28:19
  And so that's why I think it's helpful because it's very,
• 28:22
  at its core,
• 28:23
  it's very practical.
• 28:25
  SPEAKER_01: Well, and the symbol too, it's not an excuse to sin.
• 28:29
  SPEAKER_01: It's a confession of sin.
• 28:31
  That's kind of the way that I like to think about it is like,
• 28:34
  people can hear this.
• 28:35
  SPEAKER_01: It's like, well, is this saying, are you giving me permission to sin?
• 28:37
  SPEAKER_01: Are you just like, we're going to throw up our hands and just be these
• 28:41
  spiritual couch potatoes who don't ever seek to improve or
• 28:44
  something like that well
• 28:46
  no it's an acknowledgement like you're saying like to call a
• 28:49
  thing what it is we
• 28:51
  don't have to pretend that we're better than we are we don't
• 28:53
  have to uh airbrush or
• 28:56
  posture or preen or be like you know i mean you got to do
• 28:59
  something with sin either
• 29:00
  you're going to justify it or defend it uh or sweep it under
• 29:03
  the rug but like
• 29:05
  the symbol is the only paradigm that i know of that actually
• 29:09
  like looks it looks in
• 29:10
  the eye names it for what it is and all of its warts and like
• 29:15
  unbridled ugliness
• 29:16
  and and evil for what it is uh and yet still says that doesn't
• 29:22
  get the final word
• 29:22
  about you uh what god declares to be true about you is more
• 29:26
  true uh than that and
• 29:29
  SPEAKER_01: and you look at the the way things are going um
• 29:32
  there's going to come a day when sin won't even be a reality
• 29:36
  and only the saint will remain.
• 29:37
  SPEAKER_01: So, yeah.
• 29:39
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 29:40
  SPEAKER_00: And this kind of brings up this notion.
• 29:42
  SPEAKER_00: And I think this is,
• 29:43
  SPEAKER_00: I think where folks stumble,
• 29:45
  SPEAKER_00: but also where people maybe have misconceptions about what the symbol is,
• 29:51
  SPEAKER_00: is that the symbol itself is sort of this invitation into tension.
• 29:58
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that that's one of the things that we don't like.
• 30:01
  SPEAKER_00: We want to resist that.
• 30:02
  SPEAKER_00: We'd rather not live within the tension of sinner saint.
• 30:05
  SPEAKER_00: We would rather it be a little bit more clear.
• 30:08
  SPEAKER_00: We would rather it be a little bit more defined.
• 30:11
  SPEAKER_00: With clear lines,
• 30:13
  SPEAKER_00: demarcating,
• 30:15
  SPEAKER_00: this person is definitely a sinner and this person is definitely a saint.
• 30:18
  SPEAKER_00: But actually, that window doesn't exist.
• 30:22
  SPEAKER_00: That paradigm doesn't exist.
• 30:23
  The only paradigm that does is kind of living within this
• 30:26
  paradox,
• 30:26
  which is,
• 30:27
  SPEAKER_00: You are fully justified in the eyes of God,
• 30:30
  SPEAKER_00: but you're also just riddled with sin at the same time,
• 30:35
  which I think maybe is—I think this is kind of what Paul is
• 30:38
  getting at when he
• 30:39
  talks about in 2 Corinthians that we are called to live by
• 30:41
  faith because that's
• 30:44
  what I think is so intrinsic and elemental to the symbol in the
• 30:49
  first place.
• 30:51
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah, that's good.
• 30:52
  SPEAKER_01: I think I quoted it in the book,
• 30:53
  SPEAKER_01: and it's a well-known line,
• 30:55
  SPEAKER_01: but it's like the soul's in its end thing where it's like—
• 30:58
  The line between good and evil runs straight through the heart
• 31:00
  of every human being.
• 31:02
  SPEAKER_01: And we will spend our whole lives trying to deny that that is the case.
• 31:06
  SPEAKER_01: So,
• 31:07
  SPEAKER_01: yeah,
• 31:08
  there's something really freeing that happens when you get to
• 31:10
  call a thing what it
• 31:11
  SPEAKER_01: is,
• 31:11
  SPEAKER_01: that you get to say,
• 31:13
  SPEAKER_01: man,
• 31:13
  SPEAKER_01: like,
• 31:14
  SPEAKER_01: I still got these impulses.
• 31:16
  SPEAKER_01: I've still got these desires.
• 31:17
  SPEAKER_01: I'm not doing what I should.
• 31:18
  SPEAKER_01: I'm not living up to the way I should, despite what the army may tell me.
• 31:22
  SPEAKER_01: I'm not being all I can be, you know?
• 31:26
  SPEAKER_01: And...
• 31:27
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah,
• 31:28
  so I think there's freedom there in being able to be honest
• 31:34
  about who we are and
• 31:36
  SPEAKER_01: about who Christ is.
• 31:38
  SPEAKER_00: So when it comes to pastoral ministry,
• 31:41
  SPEAKER_00: how does the symbol influence your preaching,
• 31:45
  SPEAKER_00: the way that you preach or prepare,
• 31:47
  SPEAKER_00: or how you are studying a certain text of Scripture?
• 31:53
  SPEAKER_00: And maybe it's not always explicit, maybe it's this implicit thing, but
• 31:58
  How does that inform the way that you're going to approach or
• 32:01
  write a sermon?
• 32:05
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that's a great question.
• 32:07
  And I think part of what I try to do is resist the impulse to
• 32:15
  jump to the either or
• 32:16
  SPEAKER_01: rather than embracing the both and,
• 32:19
  SPEAKER_01: like you're saying.
• 32:21
  It's not that this morning I'm going to be preaching to some
• 32:24
  saints today.
• 32:26
  SPEAKER_01: And then some sinners.
• 32:27
  SPEAKER_01: No,
• 32:28
  SPEAKER_01: I approach the preaching,
• 32:30
  SPEAKER_01: pastoral care,
• 32:31
  SPEAKER_01: all of that stuff,
• 32:34
  SPEAKER_01: knowing that the person I'm talking to,
• 32:37
  SPEAKER_01: the person I'm speaking to,
• 32:38
  SPEAKER_01: this is a flesh and blood sinner saint.
• 32:41
  Like this is someone who again and again needs to be freed of
• 32:48
  this burden that
• 32:49
  SPEAKER_01: they're carrying around with them.
• 32:51
  SPEAKER_01: And that burden might look like different things.
• 32:53
  SPEAKER_01: It's
• 32:54
  SPEAKER_01: And I think sometimes it is sin in and of itself.
• 32:58
  Like there are people that will show up on a Sunday morning who
• 33:01
  are comfortable in
• 33:03
  SPEAKER_01: their sin and who think,
• 33:05
  SPEAKER_01: man,
• 33:06
  SPEAKER_01: like,
• 33:07
  SPEAKER_01: I'm good here.
• 33:08
  SPEAKER_01: I'm good to go.
• 33:09
  SPEAKER_01: I get my forgiveness.
• 33:10
  SPEAKER_01: I walk out the door.
• 33:11
  SPEAKER_01: Like, I think that's a real thing.
• 33:12
  SPEAKER_01: I think there is that crowd there.
• 33:14
  SPEAKER_01: But I also think that the truth is there are people who are –
• 33:24
  SPEAKER_01: beating themselves bloody,
• 33:27
  beating themselves raw over the head by the time they already
• 33:31
  walk through those
• 33:33
  SPEAKER_01: church doors,
• 33:35
  SPEAKER_01: too.
• 33:35
  And I think you have to find a way to embrace both of those
• 33:38
  things and know both those are true.
• 33:39
  SPEAKER_01: I think sometimes people are affected directly by sin in and of itself,
• 33:46
  SPEAKER_01: and I think sometimes people are affected more by the consequences of sin
• 33:51
  SPEAKER_01: So like you think of somebody struggling with mental health,
• 33:53
  SPEAKER_01: for example,
• 33:56
  SPEAKER_01: like,
• 33:58
  SPEAKER_01: is your anxiety due to the fact that you're personally sinful?
• 34:03
  SPEAKER_01: Well, we would say no.
• 34:05
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, this is the effects of living in a sinful, fallen, broken world.
• 34:10
  SPEAKER_01: So that person doesn't just need to be told to repent.
• 34:12
  That person needs to be reminded that God is making all things
• 34:16
  new,
• 34:16
  that he is healing as well.
• 34:18
  SPEAKER_01: So I think that has to be part of the discussion.
• 34:19
  SPEAKER_01: And then you do get the people that
• 34:21
  SPEAKER_01: Like when you're dealing with just sin directly,
• 34:24
  SPEAKER_01: yeah,
• 34:25
  SPEAKER_01: I think the forgiveness and the preaching of repentance,
• 34:29
  SPEAKER_01: what is it you,
• 34:32
  SPEAKER_01: your job as a teacher is to,
• 34:34
  as a preacher is to comfort the afflicted and afflict those
• 34:41
  comfortable in their
• 34:42
  SPEAKER_01: sin,
• 34:42
  SPEAKER_01: something along those lines.
• 34:45
  SPEAKER_01: So I don't know if that answers your question or not,
• 34:47
  SPEAKER_01: but I think,
• 34:48
  SPEAKER_01: yeah,
• 34:48
  SPEAKER_01: acknowledging like every single one of these people is a sinner saint.
• 34:52
  SPEAKER_01: in wrestling with their own things.
• 34:54
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah,
• 34:54
  SPEAKER_00: I think recognizing that I think allows for,
• 34:58
  SPEAKER_00: I think,
• 34:59
  a little bit less pressure in the pulpit because you're not
• 35:04
  feeling this weight of
• 35:07
  SPEAKER_00: having people change through the course of your sermon.
• 35:10
  SPEAKER_00: Actually, in fact, that's kind of the opposite of the case.
• 35:13
  SPEAKER_00: You're just bringing this word to them,
• 35:15
  SPEAKER_00: a word from outside of them,
• 35:17
  SPEAKER_00: Lord willing,
• 35:17
  SPEAKER_00: that you're bringing the word of promise once again into their
• 35:21
  ears and before their hearts and letting them know that their
• 35:26
  ability to change is
• 35:28
  SPEAKER_00: not dependent upon the quality of their faith.
• 35:32
  SPEAKER_00: Actually,
• 35:32
  SPEAKER_00: it is outside of their capacity to change themselves by this,
• 35:39
  SPEAKER_00: that,
• 35:39
  SPEAKER_00: or the other thing,
• 35:40
  SPEAKER_00: because we are sinner saints.
• 35:42
  SPEAKER_00: And there's only one way in which change, life change, growth, and
• 35:48
  SPEAKER_00: our faith happens.
• 35:49
  SPEAKER_00: And that's by this deepening awareness of who we already are in Christ,
• 35:55
  SPEAKER_00: which is part of what preaching the symbol is.
• 35:57
  SPEAKER_00: And it's not,
• 35:58
  SPEAKER_00: again,
• 35:58
  SPEAKER_00: not,
• 35:59
  SPEAKER_00: not just preaching it explicitly,
• 36:01
  SPEAKER_00: but just having its tenants inform us as preachers,
• 36:05
  SPEAKER_00: as expositors or what have you.
• 36:07
  SPEAKER_00: This lets us be a little bit more free.
• 36:11
  SPEAKER_00: I think also a little bit more honest and a little bit more
• 36:17
  SPEAKER_00: bold with like,
• 36:18
  SPEAKER_00: this is who you are,
• 36:19
  SPEAKER_00: but this is also who Christ is,
• 36:22
  SPEAKER_00: has made you,
• 36:23
  SPEAKER_00: but also has Christ is making you into be,
• 36:26
  SPEAKER_00: which is a really hopeful and relieving word.
• 36:28
  SPEAKER_00: A hundred percent.
• 36:30
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 36:30
  And I'm thinking about,
• 36:32
  you know,
• 36:32
  the,
• 36:32
  the reality of the symbol for the preacher too.
• 36:34
  SPEAKER_01: Like how does that,
• 36:37
  SPEAKER_01: as a sinner,
• 36:38
  SPEAKER_01: I'm,
• 36:38
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 36:39
  I'm subject to whatever competing impulses are going on in my
• 36:43
  heart at the time.
• 36:43
  SPEAKER_01: Even when I'm writing a sermon, for example, like if I sit down to write
• 36:47
  immediately after I have had a disagreement with my wife or
• 36:51
  I've failed to treat
• 36:53
  SPEAKER_01: my,
• 36:54
  SPEAKER_01: my kid the way that,
• 36:55
  SPEAKER_01: that I should,
• 36:56
  you better believe that that's going to go and play into the
• 36:59
  way that I'm,
• 37:01
  the framework I have when I'm studying scripture and the things
• 37:04
  I'm drawn to and
• 37:05
  SPEAKER_01: the things that I'm not.
• 37:06
  So it's just like,
• 37:09
  praise the Lord that God's God's word works in spite of me.
• 37:12
  SPEAKER_01: Sometimes it's like the Holy spirit grabs my sermon is like,
• 37:17
  SPEAKER_01: I'm not going to do what you want me to do with this.
• 37:19
  SPEAKER_01: I'm going to do what I want, and it's going to be so much better.
• 37:23
  SPEAKER_00: That's so good, and I think it's really important.
• 37:25
  As you said,
• 37:28
  the sinner-saint paradigm is,
• 37:30
  I would say,
• 37:31
  really formative for pastors.
• 37:33
  It keeps them humble and honest,
• 37:36
  and it kind of precludes this idea that we are somehow—
• 37:42
  SPEAKER_00: in a different echelon of spiritual reality or truth,
• 37:45
  or like we've been inaugurated into this special elite class of
• 37:49
  people that,
• 37:49
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 37:50
  look at like calling for people to look at us because of what
• 37:54
  we've quote unquote
• 37:55
  SPEAKER_00: figured out.
• 37:55
  SPEAKER_00: And I, there's this temptation for that.
• 37:58
  SPEAKER_00: There's this temptation to be like, I'm a member of clergy.
• 38:01
  SPEAKER_00: So now there's a different way that people ought to treat me,
• 38:05
  SPEAKER_00: but actually,
• 38:06
  SPEAKER_00: no,
• 38:06
  SPEAKER_00: we're just a sinner saints,
• 38:07
  SPEAKER_00: just like everyone else.
• 38:09
  SPEAKER_00: We have a different vocation.
• 38:10
  SPEAKER_00: We do have a different calling.
• 38:12
  But we live within the same realities of being pulled back into
• 38:19
  sin and mistrusting
• 38:22
  SPEAKER_00: or not believing,
• 38:24
  SPEAKER_00: not consciously believing who we already are in Christ all the time,
• 38:28
  SPEAKER_00: which is why I think that it's so profound and insightful to be like,
• 38:33
  SPEAKER_00: this is who you are,
• 38:34
  SPEAKER_00: preacher.
• 38:35
  And so as you're preaching to your people,
• 38:37
  don't forget that this is who you are too.
• 38:40
  SPEAKER_01: So good.
• 38:42
  SPEAKER_00: So where are you?
• 38:43
  Obviously,
• 38:45
  Romans 7 is,
• 38:46
  we could say,
• 38:46
  the titular passage for talking about this paradigm.
• 38:50
  SPEAKER_00: Where else would you want to send someone, so to speak?
• 38:55
  SPEAKER_00: Or where else would you direct someone?
• 38:56
  SPEAKER_00: Obviously, we can unpack Romans 7.
• 38:59
  SPEAKER_00: But where else would you go in Scripture?
• 39:01
  SPEAKER_00: We could say it's all of the Bible.
• 39:04
  SPEAKER_00: But where's a really good place to go in terms of teasing out
• 39:10
  SPEAKER_00: what it looks like to be a sinner saint, if you will.
• 39:12
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
• 39:14
  SPEAKER_01: Well, I think, yeah, you're right.
• 39:15
  The passage that you always go to,
• 39:17
  kind of the seminal passage,
• 39:19
  if you will,
• 39:19
  would be Romans 7.
• 39:21
  SPEAKER_01: where Paul talks about,
• 39:22
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 39:22
  not being able to do the good I want to do and the evil I don't
• 39:26
  want to do,
• 39:27
  SPEAKER_01: that still lies close at hand and I continue to fail.
• 39:31
  SPEAKER_01: So that's the most clear passage I would say.
• 39:37
  SPEAKER_01: Galatians 5 is another place where you go,
• 39:39
  SPEAKER_01: where Paul talks about the battle between the spirit and the flesh.
• 39:44
  SPEAKER_01: The spirit wants what it wants.
• 39:47
  SPEAKER_01: The flesh wants what it wants.
• 39:48
  SPEAKER_01: Then you've got the fruit of the spirit.
• 39:50
  versus uh the works of the flesh um so that's another really
• 39:56
  good place to go i
• 39:57
  think so you can you know scriptures is that's what i love
• 40:00
  about scripture is it's
• 40:01
  like a prism and there's all these different facets to it right
• 40:04
  so there's the
• 40:05
  didactic passages like romans and galatians and those um and i
• 40:09
  think that's the
• 40:10
  place to start but i also feel like um uh there's another place
• 40:15
  you can go to which
• 40:16
  SPEAKER_01: is uh to the old testament specifically um
• 40:20
  SPEAKER_01: where you're,
• 40:21
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 40:21
  SPEAKER_01: you're looking at the lives of God's saints,
• 40:24
  SPEAKER_01: of these great quote unquote heroes of the faith and seeing,
• 40:28
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 40:30
  SPEAKER_01: in flesh and blood,
• 40:31
  SPEAKER_01: like real time,
• 40:32
  SPEAKER_01: how these saints actually live.
• 40:35
  SPEAKER_01: And what you come to discover is that like,
• 40:37
  SPEAKER_01: man,
• 40:38
  SPEAKER_01: some of these dudes were pretty,
• 40:41
  SPEAKER_01: they're pretty messed up.
• 40:42
  SPEAKER_01: They had some issues.
• 40:44
  SPEAKER_01: And I give a number of different examples in the book.
• 40:46
  One of the big ones that came to mind for me,
• 40:49
  and I just discovered this as I was,
• 40:51
  SPEAKER_01: reading through it was Moses.
• 40:53
  SPEAKER_01: And because he,
• 40:56
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 40:56
  SPEAKER_01: he's the thing that was kind of his besetting sin,
• 40:59
  SPEAKER_01: I guess,
• 40:59
  SPEAKER_01: if you will,
• 41:00
  SPEAKER_01: is his anger issues.
• 41:03
  SPEAKER_01: He,
• 41:04
  SPEAKER_01: he kills the Egyptian,
• 41:05
  SPEAKER_01: which we all know happens fairly early on in,
• 41:10
  SPEAKER_01: in his life,
• 41:10
  SPEAKER_01: which also,
• 41:11
  SPEAKER_01: I mean,
• 41:12
  SPEAKER_01: it's like a true crime podcast because like he,
• 41:14
  SPEAKER_01: he,
• 41:14
  SPEAKER_01: he hides the body too.
• 41:16
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 41:16
  SPEAKER_01: And then he flees the scene.
• 41:19
  SPEAKER_01: So it's a, it's,
• 41:20
  SPEAKER_01: we see that as being one example, but you move on through his life too.
• 41:24
  There's the waters of Meribah where he strikes the rock with
• 41:30
  his rod when he's,
• 41:33
  SPEAKER_01: and he's kind of berating the people for that.
• 41:36
  SPEAKER_01: And there's the other instance where he throws down the 10 commandments,
• 41:41
  SPEAKER_01: which in that sense,
• 41:42
  SPEAKER_01: it's kind of a righteous anger.
• 41:44
  SPEAKER_01: But nonetheless,
• 41:44
  SPEAKER_01: there were consequences for that,
• 41:47
  SPEAKER_01: that action,
• 41:47
  SPEAKER_01: the earthly consequences that we see.
• 41:49
  SPEAKER_01: So,
• 41:50
  SPEAKER_01: And what got me,
• 41:51
  SPEAKER_01: what was interesting to me about that in particular was that,
• 41:54
  SPEAKER_01: like,
• 41:54
  SPEAKER_01: those instances happened,
• 41:56
  SPEAKER_01: like,
• 41:57
  SPEAKER_01: throughout his life.
• 41:58
  One of them happened,
• 41:58
  I think,
• 41:59
  when he was 41 at 81,
• 42:00
  and he was at,
• 42:01
  like,
• 42:01
  120.
• 42:01
  And you're kind of like,
• 42:03
  man,
• 42:03
  Moses,
• 42:04
  you've had 120 years to get this right,
• 42:06
  dude.
• 42:07
  SPEAKER_01: Like, is this really the best you can do?
• 42:09
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 42:11
  So his anger was something that he clearly struggled with
• 42:14
  throughout his entire time on earth.
• 42:17
  SPEAKER_01: And I find great comfort in that.
• 42:18
  SPEAKER_01: Not like,
• 42:19
  SPEAKER_01: well,
• 42:19
  SPEAKER_01: this is,
• 42:20
  SPEAKER_01: I should strive to not improve on my anger issues as well,
• 42:23
  SPEAKER_01: but more in this sense,
• 42:24
  SPEAKER_01: like,
• 42:25
  SPEAKER_01: man,
• 42:26
  SPEAKER_01: it is just so true that God uses sinners,
• 42:31
  SPEAKER_01: people who are broken,
• 42:33
  SPEAKER_01: people who are struggling,
• 42:34
  SPEAKER_01: people who are guilty to do his work because there's no such a,
• 42:39
  SPEAKER_01: There's no such thing as a non-sinner saint in the Bible, really.
• 42:43
  SPEAKER_00: That's right.
• 42:45
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 42:46
  SPEAKER_00: I love the example of Moses,
• 42:47
  SPEAKER_00: especially when you think about the fact that,
• 42:49
  SPEAKER_00: as Stephen articulates in Acts 7,
• 42:52
  SPEAKER_00: this was God's chosen deliverer for his people.
• 42:56
  This guy who,
• 42:57
  as you have sort of articulated,
• 43:00
  had anger issues his whole life.
• 43:01
  This was the guy that God had set apart and chosen to deliver
• 43:06
  his people to sort
• 43:07
  SPEAKER_00: of—well,
• 43:08
  SPEAKER_00: not sort of,
• 43:08
  SPEAKER_00: but to,
• 43:09
  SPEAKER_00: in a way—
• 43:10
  typify what christ would do in an ultimate sense and i think
• 43:14
  realizing that that's
• 43:15
  who god chooses is in a lot of ways really relieving but it's
• 43:19
  also it just lets us
• 43:20
  know like this is who god is so he just has a strange choice uh
• 43:25
  yeah about him that
• 43:26
  he's going about picking these types of people another really
• 43:29
  great example because
• 43:31
  i preach it's fresh on my mind because i preached to it i get
• 43:33
  maybe that was last
• 43:34
  SPEAKER_00: year i don't know when i did but um
• 43:36
  SPEAKER_00: all the sermons kind of run together sometimes,
• 43:39
  SPEAKER_00: but you know,
• 43:40
  SPEAKER_00: I preached through the life of Jacob.
• 43:42
  SPEAKER_00: And in many ways,
• 43:43
  I would say that Jacob is like the ultimate example of a sinner
• 43:47
  saint because he's
• 43:49
  SPEAKER_00: chosen by God before he's even born.
• 43:51
  SPEAKER_00: And he has this destiny, if you will, like thrust upon him.
• 43:57
  But as you,
• 43:58
  as you read,
• 43:58
  there's sometimes where it's like,
• 43:59
  man,
• 44:00
  he's,
• 44:00
  he got it.
• 44:01
  SPEAKER_00: He, he gets it.
• 44:02
  SPEAKER_00: And then the next sentence, it's like, yeah, no, he doesn't get it.
• 44:06
  And then when you come to the end of his life and he's sort of
• 44:11
  passing on this
• 44:11
  SPEAKER_00: blessing on to his grandsons and to his other sons,
• 44:15
  SPEAKER_00: you read like in chapter,
• 44:17
  SPEAKER_00: if you read chapter 49 of Genesis and you hear this prayer,
• 44:22
  SPEAKER_00: but also this prophecy from Jacob,
• 44:25
  SPEAKER_00: it's like,
• 44:25
  SPEAKER_00: oh,
• 44:26
  SPEAKER_00: wow,
• 44:26
  SPEAKER_00: he does,
• 44:26
  SPEAKER_00: he does get it.
• 44:28
  SPEAKER_00: And it's so it, that,
• 44:30
  back and forth like Jacob's life is a roller coaster and then
• 44:34
  some it kind of
• 44:36
  brings out the bare honesty of like the trajectory of the life
• 44:41
  of faith is never
• 44:42
  what we think that it is it's never this just like easy gliding
• 44:47
  upward ascent into
• 44:48
  SPEAKER_00: finally one day we're going to be glorified
• 44:51
  It's not always like,
• 44:52
  you know,
• 44:53
  Elijah,
• 44:53
  where we're just taken up in a whirlwind.
• 44:56
  SPEAKER_00: That's an exception, not the rule.
• 45:00
  SPEAKER_00: Sinner saints live in the ups and downs.
• 45:03
  SPEAKER_00: They live within this vacillation between unbelief and belief.
• 45:08
  SPEAKER_00: And it's,
• 45:09
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 45:10
  SPEAKER_00: that cry that comes out in the gospel of Mark,
• 45:14
  SPEAKER_00: Lord,
• 45:15
  SPEAKER_00: I believe,
• 45:15
  SPEAKER_00: help my unbelief.
• 45:16
  SPEAKER_00: That's not just a throwaway sort of sentiment.
• 45:18
  SPEAKER_00: That's very
• 45:20
  intentionally put there to say like this is sort of the cry of
• 45:23
  the sinner saint is
• 45:24
  is that very reality yeah yeah that no that's that's really
• 45:29
  really good i think too
• 45:31
  part of what that does is teach you how to read scripture
• 45:34
  rightly and helps you
• 45:35
  understand yeah you know what jesus says to the disciples on
• 45:39
  the road to emmaus
• 45:40
  SPEAKER_01: that all of these things are there to testify about me um
• 45:45
  Because we tend to,
• 45:46
  as Chad Bird that said,
• 45:48
  like we're spiritual narcissists at heart.
• 45:51
  So whenever we're reading the Bible,
• 45:53
  we see the hero and we think,
• 45:55
  oh,
• 45:55
  well,
• 45:55
  that must be me.
• 45:56
  SPEAKER_01: That's me.
• 45:57
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 45:59
  SPEAKER_01: Versus saying there's one here in the Bible and it's not me.
• 46:03
  SPEAKER_01: In fact, I am not just not the hero, but like I'm kind of the enemy here.
• 46:08
  SPEAKER_01: I'm kind of the bad guy.
• 46:09
  SPEAKER_01: I am the one.
• 46:11
  SPEAKER_01: that while I was still sinful, he died for me.
• 46:15
  SPEAKER_01: So it puts us, I think, in that more accurate light too.
• 46:20
  SPEAKER_01: And yeah, it helps us see the, helps us read scripture rightly, I guess.
• 46:26
  SPEAKER_00: Oh yeah, that's really good.
• 46:27
  SPEAKER_00: And I don't think,
• 46:29
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know if I shared this with you last time,
• 46:30
  SPEAKER_00: but I think I've shared this before somewhere else,
• 46:34
  SPEAKER_00: but I don't remember where,
• 46:35
  SPEAKER_00: but I think what was so helpful for me,
• 46:38
  SPEAKER_00: especially in life,
• 46:40
  SPEAKER_00: recent years is just kind of realizing like I'm the Pharisee.
• 46:44
  SPEAKER_00: So like,
• 46:44
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 46:45
  SPEAKER_00: growing up,
• 46:45
  you hear these stories about Jesus and his interactions with
• 46:48
  the Pharisees and the
• 46:49
  SPEAKER_00: Pharisees are always sort of like painted like these,
• 46:52
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 46:53
  SPEAKER_00: Disney villains.
• 46:53
  SPEAKER_00: Like they're like the dude from Notre Dame,
• 46:56
  SPEAKER_00: the Hunter Patrick of Notre Dame,
• 46:58
  SPEAKER_00: like twirling their mustache.
• 47:00
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 47:01
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 47:01
  Like they're the,
• 47:02
  they're the Disney villains and like,
• 47:04
  don't be like them.
• 47:05
  SPEAKER_00: But then you come to realize, I think I've come to realize like,
• 47:10
  more often than not that that's me i'm the the pharisee in the
• 47:13
  corner it's like why
• 47:15
  aren't your disciples washing their hands why aren't they why
• 47:17
  aren't you guys being
• 47:18
  more clean why aren't you guys you know getting your act
• 47:21
  together and like you're
• 47:23
  not behaving like i'm we're the pharisee in the corner like
• 47:27
  yeah like score keeping
• 47:29
  everyone else's spirituality and and like checking things off
• 47:33
  in our in our little
• 47:34
  notebooks and stuff like that and you know proverbially
• 47:37
  speaking but like that's
• 47:39
  a helpful reality to understand that no,
• 47:42
  there is only one hero and it's Jesus.
• 47:44
  And we are the ones that he has come to sort of remove the
• 47:48
  scales off of our eyes,
• 47:49
  SPEAKER_00: the scales of performances and the scales of like,
• 47:54
  SPEAKER_00: uh,
• 47:54
  SPEAKER_00: try harder,
• 47:55
  SPEAKER_00: do better Christianity as if that's even a reality that exists,
• 47:59
  SPEAKER_00: which it doesn't,
• 48:00
  SPEAKER_00: but that we,
• 48:01
  SPEAKER_00: that's,
• 48:02
  SPEAKER_00: that's who we are.
• 48:02
  And that's humbling,
• 48:04
  but it's also really relieving because then we're like,
• 48:07
  Oh,
• 48:07
  SPEAKER_00: There is only one hero,
• 48:08
  SPEAKER_00: and he's the one that has given him's life for us,
• 48:12
  SPEAKER_00: which is,
• 48:12
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 48:13
  SPEAKER_00: what an awesome piece of good news that is.
• 48:15
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that's awesome.
• 48:17
  SPEAKER_01: Sally Lloyd-Jones,
• 48:18
  SPEAKER_01: her Jesus Storybook Bible,
• 48:19
  SPEAKER_01: she puts something in the very beginning,
• 48:21
  SPEAKER_01: like the introduction,
• 48:22
  SPEAKER_01: where she says that much better than we're trying to here,
• 48:25
  SPEAKER_01: but yeah.
• 48:27
  Yes,
• 48:28
  I've often said that Sally Lloyd-Jones' book is the best book
• 48:31
  on theology that was
• 48:33
  SPEAKER_00: quite honestly ever written.
• 48:35
  SPEAKER_00: It's just so awesome.
• 48:36
  SPEAKER_00: Like just reading that introduction,
• 48:38
  SPEAKER_00: you can just reread it over and over again and just be enamored by it.
• 48:43
  SPEAKER_00: And again, let's talk about this.
• 48:46
  SPEAKER_00: We kind of have hinted at it, this trajectory sort of conversation.
• 48:52
  What would you say as both a pastor,
• 48:54
  but also as just a sinner saint yourself?
• 48:57
  SPEAKER_00: What are some of the ways, or what's sort of the fallout if
• 49:02
  SPEAKER_00: the symbol is not,
• 49:05
  SPEAKER_00: if it's denied or ignored,
• 49:06
  like what are some ways in which it kind of has ripple effects
• 49:11
  on our relationships
• 49:12
  SPEAKER_00: with others or relationship with the church or so on and so forth?
• 49:15
  SPEAKER_01: Hmm.
• 49:17
  SPEAKER_01: Well,
• 49:17
  SPEAKER_01: I think in terms of our relationship with others,
• 49:18
  it's going to end up resulting in a lack of compassion because
• 49:21
  you're going to have
• 49:22
  SPEAKER_01: unrealistic expectations,
• 49:24
  SPEAKER_01: uh,
• 49:25
  SPEAKER_01: of the other Christians in your lives that,
• 49:27
  SPEAKER_01: um,
• 49:27
  SPEAKER_01: they're ultimately going to be on this upward trending trajectory and,
• 49:31
  SPEAKER_01: um,
• 49:32
  SPEAKER_01: they should be expected to continue in this upward trending trajectory.
• 49:37
  So when they're not there,
• 49:39
  it's going to be crushing disappointment slash judgment.
• 49:43
  All of the,
• 49:44
  the life killing relationship,
• 49:46
  destroying stuff that Satan uses to do his work.
• 49:53
  SPEAKER_01: So I think that's a big, definitely a big part of it.
• 49:58
  SPEAKER_01: I would say too, you know, if it's,
• 50:01
  if you're an understandably,
• 50:02
  like this is,
• 50:03
  this is not a logical concept.
• 50:05
  SPEAKER_01: So like,
• 50:06
  SPEAKER_01: if you're hearing this for the first time and you're saying like,
• 50:09
  SPEAKER_01: what in the world,
• 50:10
  SPEAKER_01: like that's totally okay.
• 50:12
  SPEAKER_01: This is not,
• 50:13
  SPEAKER_01: it's,
• 50:13
  it's not something that it is something that seems like it is
• 50:17
  kind of a paradox.
• 50:18
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 50:20
  SPEAKER_01: And that's okay.
• 50:20
  SPEAKER_01: And good to embrace it as such, but I think it is good to consider.
• 50:24
  SPEAKER_01: What is the alternate?
• 50:25
  SPEAKER_01: What's the alternative to a sinner and saint?
• 50:28
  SPEAKER_01: Well, if it's an either or thing,
• 50:31
  SPEAKER_01: then either I'm a sinner only,
• 50:33
  SPEAKER_01: in which case I am dead in my trespasses and sins,
• 50:38
  SPEAKER_01: I am damned to a lost eternity,
• 50:42
  SPEAKER_01: and there's no hope for me.
• 50:46
  SPEAKER_01: Or I am a saint only,
• 50:51
  in which case I have no need for the ongoing forgiveness and
• 50:55
  grace of Jesus Christ
• 50:58
  SPEAKER_01: in my life each and every day.
• 51:01
  SPEAKER_01: it's going to either lead you to a place,
• 51:04
  SPEAKER_01: I think,
• 51:04
  SPEAKER_01: it's going to either lead you to a place of spiritual pride or despair.
• 51:11
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 51:12
  SPEAKER_00: And that has so many ramifications for our life with each other.
• 51:17
  SPEAKER_00: You know,
• 51:18
  SPEAKER_00: Paul talks about this,
• 51:19
  SPEAKER_00: I think,
• 51:20
  SPEAKER_00: in Philippians 2,
• 51:22
  SPEAKER_00: where he talks about,
• 51:22
  SPEAKER_00: let this mind be unto you.
• 51:24
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that this, I think the denial of
• 51:27
  of this interstate reality is in direct opposition to what
• 51:30
  Paul's talking about.
• 51:31
  SPEAKER_00: Like,
• 51:32
  SPEAKER_00: as you have just articulated,
• 51:34
  SPEAKER_00: either it's,
• 51:35
  you're going to go into deep despair over the fact that you
• 51:38
  can't get over this,
• 51:39
  SPEAKER_00: that,
• 51:39
  SPEAKER_00: or the other hurdle,
• 51:41
  or you're going to be puffed up with pride and try to hang your
• 51:44
  hat of merit on
• 51:46
  SPEAKER_00: some sort of spiritual accomplishment or religious discipline or,
• 51:51
  SPEAKER_00: or some sort of pious thing that you've done or achieved or,
• 51:55
  SPEAKER_00: or realized or what have you.
• 51:57
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that that, that's exactly what Paul's writing against.
• 52:02
  Like this mind be in you is this mind of the crucified Christ
• 52:06
  who did not think of
• 52:09
  SPEAKER_00: his own needs before the needs.
• 52:11
  He didn't put his own needs before the needs of others,
• 52:13
  before even the whole world.
• 52:15
  He considered the plight of the whole world before his own,
• 52:19
  before his own glory even.
• 52:21
  SPEAKER_00: And that's what led him to the cross where yes, he glorifies the father.
• 52:25
  SPEAKER_00: by atoning for the world's sins,
• 52:26
  SPEAKER_00: but in that we see the great,
• 52:28
  SPEAKER_00: yes,
• 52:29
  SPEAKER_00: glory of God,
• 52:29
  SPEAKER_00: but also the great humility of God's Son,
• 52:31
  SPEAKER_00: which is what Paul is saying,
• 52:33
  SPEAKER_00: that this is the reality that the gospel instills in us.
• 52:37
  SPEAKER_00: This is what it fills us with.
• 52:39
  This is what we are imbued with when the gospel is continually
• 52:43
  put before us.
• 52:44
  SPEAKER_00: This is what the sinner saint reality looks like.
• 52:50
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, absolutely.
• 52:52
  SPEAKER_00: And I think the other thing that I was thinking of
• 52:55
  SPEAKER_00: you were talking about,
• 52:56
  SPEAKER_00: about,
• 52:56
  SPEAKER_00: about Moses and this continual issue we could say with anger that,
• 53:03
  SPEAKER_00: that he,
• 53:04
  SPEAKER_00: that he had throughout his life,
• 53:06
  SPEAKER_00: which it really reminds me of one of Steve Brown's sermons,
• 53:10
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 53:10
  SPEAKER_00: Steve Brown from the key life network.
• 53:12
  SPEAKER_00: I think you were on his podcast or something.
• 53:16
  SPEAKER_00: Steve Brown's awesome.
• 53:17
  I met him one time,
• 53:17
  but anyways,
• 53:18
  he he said a sermon that,
• 53:21
  you know,
• 53:22
  it's not like,
• 53:23
  he's older now and it's not that he's more sanctified than he
• 53:28
  was when he was younger.
• 53:30
  SPEAKER_00: He's just more tired.
• 53:31
  SPEAKER_00: Um,
• 53:32
  SPEAKER_00: and I think like in typical Steve Brown fashion,
• 53:35
  SPEAKER_00: that's like a really honest way of understanding this truth.
• 53:39
  SPEAKER_00: is that,
• 53:40
  SPEAKER_00: yeah,
• 53:41
  SPEAKER_00: the hope and the intention and the motivation is,
• 53:44
  SPEAKER_00: yes,
• 53:44
  SPEAKER_00: to continually be sanctified in and because of Christ.
• 53:48
  SPEAKER_00: But this goes back to, again, this trajectory.
• 53:51
  If you were to put the Christian life on a graph,
• 53:54
  what would it look like?
• 53:56
  SPEAKER_00: It's probably a lot more up and down than what you think.
• 53:59
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that's a really honest way of putting it.
• 54:03
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
• 54:04
  SPEAKER_01: It's a very nonlinear process.
• 54:06
  SPEAKER_01: Like, if you were to graph out somebody's
• 54:08
  Sanctification,
• 54:09
  theoretically,
• 54:09
  it's not gonna be a nice,
• 54:11
  neat little thing.
• 54:12
  SPEAKER_01: It's gonna feel like one foot forward, two steps back.
• 54:15
  And I think the mistake we make too is that we assume that it's
• 54:22
  something that a
• 54:23
  SPEAKER_01: metric should be applied to.
• 54:24
  SPEAKER_01: We assume it's something that should be measurable in tangible terms.
• 54:31
  SPEAKER_01: And I think, I don't know.
• 54:32
  I don't know what you would say to this,
• 54:34
  but if you actually went your whole life
• 54:37
  SPEAKER_01: and said, like, say you were a Christian your entire life.
• 54:40
  SPEAKER_01: If you actually went your whole life and said,
• 54:41
  SPEAKER_01: okay,
• 54:43
  SPEAKER_01: at 80 years old,
• 54:44
  SPEAKER_01: I never once noticed any change,
• 54:49
  SPEAKER_01: any improvement in my life whatsoever.
• 54:53
  SPEAKER_01: I think if someone actually said that,
• 54:55
  SPEAKER_01: I think that's kind of a,
• 54:56
  SPEAKER_01: that's a straw man I'm setting up.
• 54:57
  But like,
• 54:58
  if someone did say that,
• 55:00
  I would have probably some questions for them,
• 55:03
  definitely.
• 55:03
  SPEAKER_01: Definitely.
• 55:04
  SPEAKER_01: So I'm not trying to make the case that change doesn't happen.
• 55:09
  SPEAKER_01: I just think,
• 55:10
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know,
• 55:11
  SPEAKER_01: in my own life,
• 55:13
  SPEAKER_01: when I talk about change,
• 55:17
  SPEAKER_01: we're not very good judges of ourselves,
• 55:19
  SPEAKER_01: I feel like.
• 55:20
  And so it has to be my wife or my kids saying,
• 55:26
  hey,
• 55:27
  I noticed you did this thing.
• 55:30
  and like encouraging me through that word outside myself right
• 55:35
  because that word is
• 55:36
  more objective and yeah um it's usually not like wow i've
• 55:41
  noticed you have become a
• 55:41
  patient person it's more like hey you put the dishes in the
• 55:45
  dishwasher tonight like
• 55:47
  praise the lord yeah um so yeah you're i i i like it when
• 55:54
  you're talking about how
• 55:55
  SPEAKER_01: it doesn't have to be uh linear and um
• 55:59
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah,
• 55:59
  it's not always tangible because we don't have this spiritual
• 56:03
  x-ray equipment that
• 56:04
  God does to be able to peer into our hearts and see what's
• 56:06
  actually going on,
• 56:07
  SPEAKER_01: right?
• 56:08
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, that's really true.
• 56:10
  SPEAKER_00: That's really good.
• 56:11
  SPEAKER_00: And this is kind of what makes us frustrated as maybe Westerners,
• 56:16
  but just definitely believers in the sense that we like
• 56:19
  measurable results.
• 56:20
  We like to put things in rankings and classes and put things in
• 56:26
  order and have all sorts of
• 56:28
  SPEAKER_00: demographics that we can separate things into.
• 56:31
  And,
• 56:32
  but the center state reality kind of blows that out of the
• 56:34
  water in a lot of ways.
• 56:36
  SPEAKER_00: And like you're saying, like there is change that occurs in us.
• 56:43
  But I,
• 56:44
  we,
• 56:44
  we get that wrong because it doesn't,
• 56:47
  I don't think it ever happens because of us.
• 56:49
  SPEAKER_00: It happens often despite us.
• 56:52
  SPEAKER_00: And that's kind of the point that we're trying to get at is that like,
• 56:55
  SPEAKER_00: yes,
• 56:55
  SPEAKER_00: the gospel is going to produce
• 56:57
  SPEAKER_00: fruit in you.
• 56:57
  SPEAKER_00: That's what the word does through the ministry of the Holy Spirit.
• 57:01
  But it's not really because you've been so good at getting up
• 57:05
  at three in the
• 57:05
  SPEAKER_00: morning and,
• 57:06
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 57:07
  SPEAKER_00: having this amazing Bible study.
• 57:09
  There's often things that occur in us that happen despite us,
• 57:12
  not because of us.
• 57:14
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 57:14
  SPEAKER_01: And I was thinking with preaching too,
• 57:16
  SPEAKER_01: it's like,
• 57:16
  SPEAKER_01: if you preach Jesus,
• 57:17
  SPEAKER_01: you're going to get good works.
• 57:19
  SPEAKER_01: Whereas if you preach good works, you're going to get
• 57:22
  bad works honestly like you're gonna get people doing works for
• 57:25
  the wrong reasons
• 57:26
  um so yes yes that's yeah that's a really good way of thinking
• 57:30
  about it like to
• 57:33
  produce good works you don't preach them you preach grace which
• 57:37
  produces good works
• 57:38
  which bears the fruit that we're talking about it's the fruit
• 57:42
  of the spirit not the
• 57:44
  fruit of our effort which is really the point that we're making
• 57:47
  so um that's so
• 57:50
  SPEAKER_00: good and at
• 57:52
  This is why,
• 57:53
  again,
• 57:53
  I keep coming back to the symbol,
• 57:55
  to this sinner-saint reality.
• 57:57
  SPEAKER_00: And I've used this reality,
• 57:59
  SPEAKER_00: I've talked about this with people in my own church,
• 58:02
  SPEAKER_00: and it's just been so formative because it's like,
• 58:05
  SPEAKER_00: you can see the light bulb go off in an individual's eyes.
• 58:09
  It's like,
• 58:09
  whoa,
• 58:10
  that makes so much sense now for how to understand the
• 58:14
  Christian life that
• 58:16
  SPEAKER_00: And that is just a really freeing thing.
• 58:19
  Again,
• 58:19
  not free to go sin,
• 58:20
  but it's freeing like,
• 58:21
  this is what faith looks like.
• 58:24
  SPEAKER_00: And it's so rewarding and I would say so fulfilling when it's like,
• 58:31
  SPEAKER_00: yeah,
• 58:31
  this is something that's formative for me and I get to share it
• 58:34
  and instill it in
• 58:35
  SPEAKER_00: others.
• 58:35
  SPEAKER_00: And like, what a privilege that is.
• 58:38
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, 100%.
• 58:39
  SPEAKER_01: I think when you talk about the freedom, what does it free us from?
• 58:42
  SPEAKER_01: I think it frees us from
• 58:43
  SPEAKER_01: the law getting to rule in our hearts and in our consciences.
• 58:47
  And I'm pretty much just parodying Luther there,
• 58:48
  I'm sure,
• 58:49
  but it's so true.
• 58:50
  SPEAKER_01: It's not that the law doesn't have its place.
• 58:52
  It's the problem is when that law gets into your heart and
• 58:55
  starts making these
• 58:57
  SPEAKER_01: moral accusations and gets to be the one in charge.
• 59:01
  SPEAKER_01: That's not the jurisdiction of the law anymore as a Christian,
• 59:03
  SPEAKER_01: because you have the gospel,
• 59:05
  SPEAKER_01: we have the good news and Christ reigns there.
• 59:08
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 59:08
  SPEAKER_01: Instead of the law.
• 59:11
  SPEAKER_00: So if,
• 59:13
  people want to read more about this obviously they should pick
• 59:15
  up center saint
• 59:16
  where else would you point people um if you're like hey you
• 59:19
  want to read more about
• 59:20
  this theological paradigm where where would you go um i think
• 59:26
  there's a little book
• 59:28
  oh who wrote this thing i can picture his face and in my mind
• 59:32
  but i don't i don't
• 59:33
  remember the name it's just like a little um tiny little
• 59:36
  booklet i think it's just
• 59:37
  SPEAKER_01: called
• 59:38
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, no, that's – I'm sorry.
• 59:39
  SPEAKER_01: That's law gospel.
• 59:40
  SPEAKER_01: I'm thinking law gospel.
• 59:41
  SPEAKER_01: Sinner saint.
• 59:45
  Probably – I know Mockingbird has put out something – like this
• 59:51
  stream kind of runs
• 59:52
  SPEAKER_01: through a lot of their stuff.
• 59:55
  SPEAKER_01: There's not many book-length treatments of the topic in particular.
• 59:59
  SPEAKER_01: If you want to really get into the meat of it,
• 1:00:03
  I think Luther's commentary on Galatians is probably – we're
• 1:00:06
  going to see that come
• 1:00:06
  SPEAKER_01: through most clearly.
• 1:00:09
  SPEAKER_01: That's a bit of a beast to read through.
• 1:00:13
  Low Anthropology by Dave Zoll gets at this without so much
• 1:00:17
  using the theological
• 1:00:18
  SPEAKER_01: language and terms.
• 1:00:19
  SPEAKER_01: Those are both great places to go, I would say, to start.
• 1:00:26
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I think Galatians is a really great place to start.
• 1:00:29
  SPEAKER_00: Dave Zoll's book,
• 1:00:30
  SPEAKER_00: Low Anthropology,
• 1:00:31
  SPEAKER_00: is sort of this paradigm,
• 1:00:33
  SPEAKER_00: but not necessarily in an overtly doctrinal sense.
• 1:00:37
  SPEAKER_00: sort of sense, um, which I think is really helpful.
• 1:00:41
  SPEAKER_00: Um, you can really understand how does this look in everyday life?
• 1:00:46
  Well,
• 1:00:46
  Dave's all has a lot of comments about that,
• 1:00:49
  which is really helpful.
• 1:00:50
  SPEAKER_00: So, um, where can people find you?
• 1:00:52
  SPEAKER_00: Where can people follow you?
• 1:00:55
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah,
• 1:00:55
  SPEAKER_01: I'm not too active on the socials,
• 1:00:56
  SPEAKER_01: but you can follow me on Facebook or Instagram or,
• 1:01:00
  SPEAKER_01: uh,
• 1:01:00
  SPEAKER_01: TikTok either under my name or,
• 1:01:03
  SPEAKER_01: uh,
• 1:01:03
  SPEAKER_01: the handle foxhole theology.
• 1:01:05
  SPEAKER_01: I also have, uh,
• 1:01:07
  youtube channel that hasn't been updated in a little while um
• 1:01:10
  so if you want to see
• 1:01:10
  old youtube content look at me up there yeah that and then also
• 1:01:16
  make sure to go
• 1:01:17
  over 1517.org and find luke's stuff he has like a lot of great
• 1:01:19
  articles over there
• 1:01:20
  um luke thanks so much for doing this thanks again for giving
• 1:01:23
  me a second chance to
• 1:01:25
  make this podcast right and i'm really glad that we could make
• 1:01:28
  it happen yeah me
• 1:01:29
  SPEAKER_01: too for sure it's been an honor thanks brad
• 1:01:31
  SPEAKER_00: Thanks so much for listening.
• 1:01:32
  SPEAKER_00: I hope you've been blessed by this episode.
• 1:01:35
  Make sure you check out the show notes to see where else you
• 1:01:37
  can find more of
• 1:01:39
  SPEAKER_00: Luke's stuff online,
• 1:01:41
  SPEAKER_00: but also follow him in his ministry and also pick up his book as well.
• 1:01:45
  SPEAKER_00: If you haven't yet, please subscribe to Ministry Minded.
• 1:01:48
  You can find this podcast over on Apple Podcasts or on Spotify
• 1:01:52
  or right here on Substack.
• 1:01:54
  SPEAKER_00: I always appreciate all of your encouragement and support.
• 1:01:57
  SPEAKER_00: as you follow and subscribe in all those places.
• 1:02:00
  SPEAKER_00: But just, again, thank you so much for listening.
• 1:02:03
  SPEAKER_00: Thanks for commenting.
• 1:02:03
  SPEAKER_00: Leave those comments and notes.
• 1:02:05
  SPEAKER_00: Those are always encouraging.
• 1:02:06
  SPEAKER_00: And I will see you on the next episode.