Latest / Identity at the Center / #273 - CHIDO, SAP IAM, and EIC 2024 with Martin Kuppinger of KuppingerCole Analysts

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#273 - CHIDO, SAP IAM, and EIC 2024 with Martin Kuppinger of KuppingerCole Analysts · Identity at the Center

0:05
This is identity at the center. If it has anything to do with
0:10
IAM, this is the go to podcast now your hosts Jim McDonald and
0:17
Jeff Stedman. Welcome to the Identity at the
0:22
Sire Podcast. I'm Jeff and that's Jim.
0:24
Hey, Jim. Hey, Jeff, how are you?
0:26
Not so bad yourself. Good, good.
0:27
I, you know we have Martin Coopinger on the show again,
0:32
fantastic guests and as we were getting ready to hit record, he
0:36
reminded me of a great story. So we will always make sure that
0:39
we have a drink nearby in case we get choked up talking about I
0:43
am. But it reminded me of a story of
0:47
a project that I was doing in, let's just say, in Western
0:50
Europe back around 2006. And we had folks, we had Dutch
0:55
folks, German folks and French folks and Americans.
0:58
And so the Germans were all drinking beer, the French were
1:02
all drinking wine, and the Dutch were all drinking milk.
1:06
No lie. Jeff, I want you to guess what
1:09
were the Americans drinking? Water or coffee?
1:12
Soda. Yeah.
1:13
Oh, I should have guessed that. That's what I would be drinking.
1:15
The soda. Yeah, yeah.
1:17
Yeah, we all had. So I mean it was like 100% all
1:20
across the board and we all had a great laugh over it.
1:23
Yeah, I can see that. Hey, you know, everybody, every
1:26
culture has their beverage. I'm kind of envious of the
1:29
Germans busting out beer in the middle of a meeting.
1:31
That's great. Well, it was, it was kind of
1:34
like a happy hour, kind of end of the day meeting.
1:37
So I think it was quite appropriate.
1:40
It's 5:00 so I. Think for Germans it's it's
1:42
quite appropriate anytime of the day.
1:43
But which I'm just saying. Martin's shaking his head.
1:47
We're gonna get to him in a second, so I'll have to follow
1:48
up on that one and see if if if you're if you're coming out of
1:51
the womb with a beer in your hand or if that's really more of
1:54
an an evening. The treat We have a few
1:57
different conferences that we're gonna be at this year.
2:00
First one coming up here is Identiverse.
2:02
That is May 28th to the 31st. It's at the Aria Resort and
2:05
Casino. Jim, you did convince me to move
2:08
over to the Vadara. We're gonna see how that goes,
2:11
but we have a conference code that we can share 25% off.
2:14
If you use the code IDV 2 four DASH IDAC 25, it rolls right off
2:20
the tongue. So we'll have a link in our show
2:21
notes so people to check it out and hopefully don't have to
2:24
remember that too easily or too hard.
2:27
But you can show support for the show by using that code.
2:29
And it does stack with whatever early bird discounts are out
2:32
there. So you know, use it early and
2:34
often as you like to say right after that 'cause I know there's
2:37
a lot of people who are going to identiverse and then they're
2:39
hopping on a plane from Vegas and going around the world to
2:42
the European Identity and Cloud conference that's put on by a
2:45
community Cole, that's June 4th to the 7th in Berlin.
2:48
And we've been fortunate enough to obtain a discount code
2:50
recently for that one. It is EIC 24, IDAC 25.
2:56
They get you 25% off and we'll have a link in our show notes as
2:59
well where people can go to register and use that code.
3:01
So we'll we'll be talking with Martin here in a in a minute or
3:04
so about that conference. And then Jim, do you want to
3:07
talk about Identity Week? Yeah, Identity Week is is a
3:10
conference that happens on three different continents.
3:13
Identity Week Europe is in Amsterdam June 11th through
3:16
12th, in America in Washington DC September 11th and 12th.
3:21
And the Asia version of Identity Week is in Singapore, October
3:26
22nd through 23rd. We've got the code IDAC 30.
3:30
It gets you 30% off. We'll put a link in the show
3:33
notes so that you can link right to the website and get it
3:36
registered. Fantastic conference.
3:37
You've been there in the past, right, Jeff?
3:39
Yeah. I hosted a panel last year with
3:42
a pretty decent lineup and I hope to do the same again this
3:45
year. And like I said, we'll be doing
3:46
podcasting things at that one too.
3:48
So yeah, looking forward to it. It's a it's an up and coming
3:51
show, so I think people should start to check it out and put it
3:54
on their radar. Bit of a quick intro today
3:56
'cause we want to spend as much time as we can with Martin.
3:59
He's joining us all the way from his home studio in Germany.
4:02
I see a map on the back of his wall there, but if you're not
4:05
familiar with Martin Coop, Martin Coopinger, he's the
4:08
founder and principal analyst at Coopinger Coal Analysts, and
4:11
this is his fourth appearance on the show.
4:13
Goes back all the way to episode 106, so we'll ask if you want
4:17
it. Normally we'd ask you Martin,
4:18
you know, what's your identity origin story?
4:20
We're going to skip that and just say, hey, go listen to
4:22
episode 106, because he already told it once.
4:24
We're not going to make him do it again.
4:26
But what have you been up to since I guess July of last
4:29
year's the last time we had John Martin?
4:30
What have I been up to? I could say the usual stuff in
4:33
some way. So I've been creating research
4:37
around extra control solutions for ISPPN of the line of
4:41
business applications. My leadership compass on
4:44
identity fabrics which is one of our core leadership combust
4:47
documents. Being involved in one other
4:50
advisory project spent some time also more in private life for
4:55
sure, just the week for last week after skiing in
4:59
Switzerland. It was wonderful.
5:01
Overall good, better good snow conditions and and so on.
5:06
So quite a number of different things.
5:08
Doing a lot of research around various identity and
5:11
cybersecurity, seems you also have been writing our error
5:15
Cyber Evolution the first time, which is our cybersecurity
5:18
conference which were conference which were run again in December
5:22
this year. So yeah, many different things.
5:25
It sounds like a very well-rounded life you're living
5:27
now. We were talking about beer and
5:29
meetings and Jim was talking about, you know, beer.
5:33
And I was like, oh, again, you know, beer and a meeting was
5:35
kind of envious of that and you were shaking your head, I guess.
5:37
Why were you shaking your head during that time?
5:39
It's like, is that not like a normal thing to have beers
5:41
during during meetings? No, it is.
5:44
It isn't so. So I remember when I was way
5:47
younger, it was still very common that especially in
5:50
Bavaria when you went to the canteen in a in a firm that they
5:54
still had beer for for lunch. So that has mostly changed
5:59
honestly. So it's really more after 5,
6:02
after six or so. I also remember having been in
6:06
France with customers where they had wine in the canteen for
6:09
lunch, but also that it's really disappearing.
6:14
But it's interesting that some people.
6:18
So I spoke with the private equity firm a while ago from the
6:21
from the Nordics and they said, you know we we focus on the beer
6:24
drinking countries. So they split Europe so to speak
6:26
into beer drinking and wine drinking countries.
6:29
Not sure what what the Netherlands would be when you
6:32
said they were drinking milk, but usually I think the
6:35
Netherlands would qualify as a beer drinking country.
6:38
I remember the my my German Co worker said all the all the
6:43
ducks are drinking milch. And you know that pronunciation.
6:47
It's like it's always stuck in my head from that story.
6:50
Yeah, but, but yeah, I think it's not exactly true, but I
6:53
think there's there's a bit of a history between the Netherlands
6:58
and Germany, which specifically specifically is around soccer,
7:03
as you would call it, football, as I would call it.
7:06
So just yesterday evening, Germany has beaten the
7:10
Netherlands by it was 2 by 1. So it was just that.
7:14
Yeah, The year that I was there was it was 2006 and the World
7:18
Cup was in Germany that year. And I did Germany win that year
7:22
I believe. No, they they they they scored
7:25
third, third place and the game for a third and 4th place.
7:30
That has been taking place in Stuttgart where I live and long
7:35
long long ahead of the tournament.
7:37
I I I bought 2 tickets for that game not knowing who will be in
7:42
that game and it was Germany against Portugal so that was a
7:45
really, really fantastic. I think it was late afternoon or
7:49
so, it was really, really fantastic.
7:52
I was there with my son who was relatively young and he was all
7:57
the game. He was standing on the chair or
7:58
the seat because he was too small and everyone was standing,
8:01
so the only way he could watch the game was standing on the
8:05
seat for for the full 90 minutes, so to speak.
8:09
Well, I'm still short, so I I totally understand standing on
8:12
the chair in that kind of environment, 'cause sometimes
8:14
that's what I need to do, too. Who is your team?
8:18
My my favorite team is Stuttgart, Father Face
8:20
Stuttgart, which currently are on on rank three in the German
8:25
Bundesliga, playing the best season for quite quite a while,
8:28
probably since 2007. So it's it's a lot of fun
8:32
watching these games, yes. It's great when your home team
8:36
is doing well. I think there's like an era of
8:38
excitement and sort of kind of feel the the kind of electricity
8:41
in the air. People don't tune into identity
8:44
at the center. They'll talk about football or
8:46
hand egg or any other versions of of sports and things like
8:50
that. We were talking a couple weeks
8:53
ago with our friend Andy Hindle and Jim Sprung a surprise kind
8:58
of opening on us around this article that you wrote on
9:01
LinkedIn called Who should be in charge of IAM and what's the
9:05
role of the siso. And so we spent about 15 minutes
9:08
I'll if people want to hear that discussion I won't rehash it
9:10
here but it was episode 268 with Andy Hindle and kind of talked
9:14
about the different roles and things like that.
9:16
And I said at the time I had not read the article because it.
9:20
I just wasn't aware of it until we were we're actually hitting
9:23
Jim hit this is how it works. Jim you know we hit record and
9:25
then Jim hits me to something. I have no idea what he's
9:27
bringing up and I hadn't seen it yet.
9:28
So we're kind of reacting in the moment and I've read the article
9:32
now and I guess for folks who aren't familiar, can you give us
9:34
kind of a brief synopsis of who should be in charge of I am and
9:38
what's the role of Seeso from your point of view?
9:40
Yeah, so basically there were two articles.
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So one looked a bit more at who should be in charge of of I am.
9:46
And the second then looked also a bit more about the sort of
9:50
interplay of Seesos and where, where, where the seeso should
9:53
sit in an organization and how these things are linked
9:56
together. And so in the 1st I'll take like
9:57
a bit started with a history of where I am resided.
10:02
So when I started my IMIM career it was more or less about things
10:07
like only network land venture stuff like that.
10:10
And then we had the first media directories, it was a very
10:12
technical administrative thing and then we we saw a bit of the
10:16
uptake of provisioning coming in, single sign on coming in.
10:19
Then we had Cyrus OXLAC, we had excess governments becoming very
10:23
hot and with that also the the responsibility started to to
10:26
shift the latest was that sort of the event of Axis governance.
10:32
It shifted away from from a pure infrastructure and
10:34
administrative area into sort of a different responsibility still
10:40
sometimes and even today sometimes a bit fussy sometimes
10:43
even split in organizations. And from there nowadays we see a
10:47
lot of season to be more precise of the first line of defense
10:52
type of Cesos. So the ones who are really
10:55
active in in in protecting versus the second line of
10:59
defense Caesars which are more on the governance side sort of
11:03
commonly the first line of defense Caesars so to speak are
11:06
the ones who are also in charge of I am this is I think
11:09
currently the most common scenario.
11:10
And what I also done brought up there is that we expect or I
11:14
expect to see also some, some, some impact.
11:17
And this is the know something which I think is highlighted in
11:20
the second article that is that we also see this entire seam of
11:26
digital identity, which is not just security, seeing for sure,
11:29
yes, we need to have security for digital identities, but they
11:33
play a very important role for the way we do digital business
11:36
or if we do business in the digital age.
11:38
So that again means there's potentially another responsible
11:42
or someone else coming in the second article.
11:44
I looked in a bit at this also from a perspective of I am
11:48
versus digital identities versus then also cybersecurity.
11:52
And I think this is an interesting point.
11:54
We had AI had a lot of comments on these articles, a lot of
11:57
discussions following that because I think it's still in
12:00
most organizations, it's a bitter unclear States and and I
12:04
I think there there might be other areas we need to treat
12:07
differently and so, so I also had this discussion a couple of
12:11
times recently around that when you have done the term of
12:14
identity security that this is probably the part where identity
12:18
plays into cybersecurity. It's a foundation for zero
12:21
trust. So zero trust starts with
12:23
identity on the other hand then you have from identity security,
12:27
you have digital identity thing which is really more on the
12:30
business side and there's the cybersecurity part which is then
12:34
sort of that part of cybersecurity which has lesser
12:36
to do maybe with identity. And so there there are various
12:40
ways you can can look at this and this impacts I think also
12:44
who should be in charge. I think most important honesty
12:47
from my perspective is that we have a powerful person in charge
12:50
of I am. That's.
12:51
Kind of. What I've been arguing around
12:53
this point, too, is that whoever's in charge of it needs
12:56
to have enough juice, as we'll call it, to enact change.
13:00
You know, free up resources, assign budget.
13:03
I almost don't care who owns I am as long as want the person
13:07
knows it that they that they own it and two that they've got
13:10
enough authority to actually make it work and and move
13:13
forward with that. The, the conversation point that
13:16
we had a couple weeks ago with Andy and this is the part that I
13:18
think I was stumbling over a little bit, was this, this line
13:22
being drawn between enterprise IAM kind of traditional
13:26
workforce, employees, contractors, etcetera.
13:29
And then the consumer side of IAM where you're more dealing
13:31
with customers. And I think, yeah, and I don't,
13:34
I don't remember exactly what I said.
13:35
So I kind of paraphrase it. But I thought at the time was
13:38
are we are we making too much of a thing or drawing too much of
13:42
an artificial line when we talk about enterprise IM versus
13:46
consumer IM and the role of what we've been referring to as the
13:50
Cheeto, the Chief Identity Officer And does that role shade
13:55
more toward consumer or to enterprise?
13:57
Are they responsible for both? And I guess the, the problem,
14:00
the problem that I've seen is that it's it, it's still not
14:04
well defined because I think some organizations really don't
14:06
have a Consumer Focus and that's fine, right?
14:08
That's not their job. Others are more enterprise
14:10
focused. I guess where do you fall on the
14:13
whole idea of a Cheeto, as we're calling it, Chief Identity
14:16
Officer? Is that the same as what you're
14:18
talking about from like a ACIDO or Chief Information Digital
14:22
Officer or Chief Digital Information and you know, things
14:26
like that, like where do you fall on that on that discussion
14:29
point? Honestly I know a couple of
14:31
people loved this idea of a Chief Identity Officer like Ian
14:34
Glaser. I I never was very convinced.
14:36
I think we have too many Chief whatever officers out there and
14:40
and it's interesting that some of the comments also that so we
14:43
rarely see a Chief Digital Officer even while this is
14:45
probably an even in the brass of organizations a much more
14:49
popular concept than a Chief Identity Officer.
14:52
And so I I also I think in one of the articles I also brought
14:56
up that probably the the CIO should be also the Chief Digital
15:00
Officer potentially or the Chief Digital Officer the CIO.
15:04
When we look at the role of what sort of IT in that sense the
15:10
broader sense place for the digital business it's
15:13
inseparable so from that perspective but then you have
15:16
people who make it work and so that's probably more ahead of I
15:19
am when when we look at the I am stuff and that our that is
15:23
probably a layer below that. So I, I I'm not a not a big a
15:28
believer in the idea of of a Chief Identity Officer.
15:32
Then you ask the question of should we split these roles.
15:35
That's probably also where we may have the need for for for
15:38
segregating between who makes identity work and who consumes
15:42
identity and and maybe that is the better way to look at it.
15:45
So when I look at the idea of the identity fabric which we
15:49
unveiled a couple of years ago which I think is quite popular
15:52
these days, then this is also something which which is a
15:55
service idea, which is an idea to say it provides the services
15:59
you need. And then and that across all the
16:02
types of identities, all the types of systems, not only
16:05
workforce as a consumer but also non human identity silicon
16:09
identities and then we have the consumption of the identities.
16:13
Maybe that is the split we should take.
16:14
And that again would be more a Chief Digital Officer in
16:18
whichever definition role terminology as the consumer for
16:22
that services versus the, yeah, whoever head of I am under the
16:27
CISO, the one who delivers to that, maybe that's than the
16:30
Cido, but as I said, I, I feel that we have too many CX OS out
16:36
there. Too many cooks in the kitchen,
16:37
maybe. I think the I think the role of
16:41
a Chief Identity Officer is something that each organization
16:45
should decide. Are they sufficiently complex
16:48
enough where they really require that type of role?
16:51
Now whether you call it chief or not is almost a separate
16:54
discussion. The, the one thing that I will
16:57
say going for the chief title is the presumed authority that that
17:02
role has, meaning that they do have either enough authority
17:05
themselves or proxy authority to actually, you know, treat this
17:09
as a program. So I can see the benefit of
17:11
having a very, you know, important sounding title purely
17:14
for the optics of it to say, oh, we take identity seriously and
17:19
this is the role that's responsible for that in our
17:22
organization. But I don't think it's, I don't
17:25
think it's the if you're a small organization and you're not, you
17:27
know, you're not sufficiently complex to really kind of
17:29
require that or maybe you're not really consumer focused.
17:32
I think maybe Consumer Focus maybe is a better look at for
17:35
the Chief Identity Officer versus like an enterprise focus.
17:38
But I I I'm still torn between it because I can see it's like,
17:42
yeah, there's too many chief titles, but how do you make sure
17:45
you've got a role in the organization that actually has,
17:48
you know, the the authority and the, you know, the the gravitas
17:52
to move things forward? But, but I think this is exactly
17:55
the point. At the end of the day, I think
17:56
there are there are two, a couple of aspects.
17:58
So you need a holistic perspective on identity
18:01
management, such as in the identity fabric, you need the
18:04
budget and the authority which can be provided by the CISO or
18:09
whoever has the time. And you need also for an
18:11
organization's perspective to get rid of these sort of
18:15
traditional splits you still sometimes find.
18:18
So you have sometimes. Sometimes I even see
18:20
organizations that have identity and access in different
18:24
departments or or yesterday I talked with someone who said
18:27
fortunately he finally sort of became the owner of the Active
18:31
Directory and the enter ID instead of the infrastructure
18:35
team honing them because it's these are identity systems so
18:39
identity people should own them. If we solve these things, the
18:43
titles are probably. Secondary thing, Jim, what do
18:46
you think you've been listening here back and forth.
18:47
Where do you fall on this conversation?
18:49
And I guess just to acknowledge what you said earlier, Martin
18:53
about Ian, yes, he's the one who started this.
18:55
I think at least from my, from my perspective, I can't worry
18:57
about it was last year at Identiverse.
18:58
So we're gonna see at Ian at Identiverse in a in a couple
19:01
weeks, but we can maybe get an update on that.
19:04
He he talked about it since, Yeah, I see.
19:06
I think last year maybe even the year before.
19:09
So. So he's advocating this a bit.
19:11
I think it fits well into ID Pro contacts.
19:14
He had started a longer time ago, very reversed by the way,
19:18
to to work at the ID Pro. Yeah.
19:20
So Martin, I guess I wanted to start with you know I think you,
19:23
I think you're one of the few people who does this where you
19:25
write your blogs directly on LinkedIn, make them super short.
19:30
They're like a one minute read or a two-minute read and man
19:34
that's impactful. I just go to so many blogs where
19:37
it I I turned them into a 2 minute read by skimming them.
19:40
But you put just enough text that I can read it all and not
19:46
get bored And then but even though it's a one or two-minute
19:49
read, obviously we've been talking about this darn blog for
19:52
like weeks now so kudos to you And like you said, it gets a ton
19:57
of people talking about it, right?
20:00
So it's I think it's a a service to people and also it's I think
20:05
you're achieving what you're hoping to achieve.
20:07
Yeah. I think what I hope to achieve
20:10
maybe is really with these articles to provoke discussions
20:13
to to trigger discussions. So I, I sometimes I or I have to
20:18
admit and the like you you you're saying that's a good
20:21
length because sometimes think about do I need to go more into
20:25
all the different details or do I leave it more at that level
20:28
and say, OK, these are things I think about.
20:30
I see and and think about start a discussion and I think when
20:35
you say you like it, that's good feedback.
20:37
Thank you. Yeah, great perspectives that
20:38
you have and great level that you're putting it at.
20:41
So with what you and Jeff were talking about, I I do agree
20:45
there might be too many C levels in the organization.
20:49
I think that's up to the organization to decide to need a
20:51
Chief Privacy Officer, do they need a a Chief XY and Z officer.
20:57
But I kind of I. So I think that's up to the
21:00
organization. Where I think it comes to
21:03
Identity is if Identity is a business differentiator for you
21:08
or something you're doing. I don't think enterprise
21:11
Identity is going to be a differentiator for pretty much
21:14
any organization, how you present yourself out to
21:18
customers, OK. Now if the identity itself is
21:23
the asset or you're doing something that is completely
21:27
cutting edge stuff, I don't think you want to throw that
21:31
back to your traditional IM team.
21:34
So let's take for example if you're running a social media
21:37
company and now that identity becomes the the the hub of the
21:41
wheel of everything that you're doing.
21:43
Or you are a credit card company and or a bank and you're using
21:49
that identity through decentralized identity that
21:52
people can use in multiple places as the basis for you know
21:57
XY and Z but but you know financial transactions and you
22:04
know like to make it more easy credit card transactions like
22:07
you see what MasterCard is doing.
22:08
So to me those are areas where it's different enough that you
22:12
don't put it back to the folks who are experts at running
22:16
identity for an enterprise and this is not to belittle what we
22:20
do. I mean heck I spent my whole
22:21
career doing enterprise identity and customer identity which I
22:26
think is pretty much repeatable. You know, whether it's an
22:29
e-commerce or B2B, there's not a tremendous amount of
22:33
differentiation from company to company.
22:35
But now when you're starting to say, OK, the identity is the the
22:39
hub of the wheel of how we make money, I think having somebody
22:44
focused at the leadership level, a Chief Identity Officer makes
22:48
total sense. What are your thoughts?
22:52
I I disagree a bit because we we probably put too much emphasis
22:58
on identity here. So I I'm an identity person but
23:02
I would say the identity is the real ideal.
23:05
We we say our understanding of the customer and what we enable
23:09
the customer to do a business grosses the business cases.
23:12
This is what we are starting with.
23:14
And the identity in that sense is the enabler to do different,
23:18
to do business differently, to do different things in business,
23:21
to implement new business cases, entire new lines of business,
23:27
etcetera. It's an enabler, but we don't do
23:30
it because you have an identity and want to do something with
23:32
the identity. We do the identity because we
23:35
want to do something in the business.
23:37
And yes, decentralized identity will enable us to do a lot of
23:40
things differently across a huge number of different areas from
23:46
citizens to government to individual things to enterprises
23:50
working with their partners and customers and employees and
23:53
consumers. Everything will be will be
23:55
impacted. But it's at the end, it's an
23:57
enabling technology and and of course the business, the area of
24:02
business, the business case etcetera.
24:04
The trouble of identity then is to ensure that we don't run into
24:07
trouble by having different approaches and identity by by
24:12
having multiple identities for the customer etcetera.
24:14
But that again is so to speak by delivering, by providing the
24:18
service that's for the identities back, Identity Fabric
24:23
APIs which can be consumed from business services, stuff like
24:26
that where where we can unify it and again also into the identity
24:31
behind the identity is then in the suburbs sense usually it's
24:34
still a standard business system.
24:36
There's a system of records where you have the information
24:39
about the person which is not so to speak not just the identity
24:44
and that system is not so the CRMDRP whatever it is, it is not
24:49
in the domain of the identity people because it's on side of
24:52
the business. So I I think but why we all
24:56
laugh identity and why we all understand and feel that
24:59
identity is important and that deserialized identity will be
25:02
extremely impactful for what we do at the end we it's it's not a
25:07
a purpose of itself. Absolutely.
25:09
So I think this is a topic we're not going to solve today.
25:15
Maybe next year, it'll still be something we're talking about.
25:18
Hopefully next year Jeff and I can come to EIC 2025, but before
25:24
that, you're going to have EIC 2024.
25:27
It's coming up, It's in Berlin. Let's take a moment.
25:31
What? What is the?
25:32
What is the city of Berlin like? Oh, you asked someone from
25:35
Stuttgart about what a city of Berlin is like.
25:38
That's a a tricky question. You know I think there's a a bit
25:43
of an anonymity between Berlin and Futkart and so so my my my
25:49
perspective of Berlin might be might be slightly biased so.
25:53
So maybe I refrain from responding to this question.
25:57
I think Berlin is this huge it is vibrant.
26:01
I think it's a very, it's a great place for, for for a
26:05
conference. Me as a Swabian, I probably
26:07
wouldn't, yeah, I I probably wouldn't like to to to live
26:11
there. I like to do events there.
26:14
When is the conference happening?
26:15
What are the dates and what kind of, you know, gosh, you know, I
26:19
jump right into the social stuff.
26:21
I want to know about the city. I want to know the dates and
26:23
what the after hours events are going to be like.
26:26
So you told us about Berlin sounds like it's an
26:30
international kind of city with very vibrant.
26:34
What are the dates of the conference?
26:35
And then in your experience, what are the kind of after of
26:39
our after hour events that that people can expect?
26:43
Yeah. So yes, he runs from May 1st to
26:49
June 4th to June 7th. That is this year We have had to
26:54
shift a bit into June. Usually we do it in in May, but
26:58
due to all the public holidays we have in Germany in in May, we
27:02
needed to shift it a bit back into early June.
27:07
It will be 4 days, starting with a sort of a rock cup morning on
27:13
Tuesday June 1st and then the afternoon as usual.
27:18
A series of keynotes was quite a number of very very interesting
27:22
speakers, so that will be definitely interesting.
27:25
So a lot of people who have been at your podcast will be also
27:29
part of that, like Ian Clay, so Charlie Brown and many many
27:34
others. So that will be it will be the
27:36
first day and then we have two days filled with two days filled
27:41
with the full tracks. In the evening of the first day
27:45
we will have an open ideal anniversary reception and before
27:50
that we will have our European identity and cloud award
27:53
ceremony. And then the the next two days
27:56
will be, as I said, packed with sessions.
27:59
We have morning keynotes, evening keynotes and we have
28:01
done 6 parallel tracks this year, even one more than than
28:05
than the previous year. There will be a A Spree tour, so
28:09
on a boat happy hour I think with with limited seating.
28:13
So book early and book early. Also for the Spree tour.
28:18
Saturday as I've said also to Thursday, we again fully packed
28:22
no specific evening program there.
28:24
So this is your opportunity to visit Berlin.
28:27
Then we run it until the afternoon of Friday when I do
28:33
nuts 3:30 on the Friday sounds, still do my closing keynote, and
28:37
basically that's it. Yeah, I know if I was going I
28:40
would be very interested in seeing the city and also
28:45
spending the weekend there. Yeah, I think a cool thing is
28:48
that the venue is super, super central to Berlin.
28:54
So the venue is at the Alexanderplatz, which it's more
29:00
or less the the centre of the former eastern part of Berlin,
29:04
so really extremely central, a perfect connectivity for public
29:08
transportation. Well, what form of public
29:11
transportation do people use to get around train?
29:13
Is that the most popular? Yes, you have the subway and you
29:17
have the the espan it's called which is the sort of the short
29:22
distance trains both here, but you also have very close.
29:25
You have a railway station then also for for the longer distance
29:29
trains. Plus you have in Berlin quite
29:31
quite a number of bus lines if you like to take the bus.
29:35
Yeah, well, so if this is somebody's first time coming,
29:40
what advice would you have for them?
29:41
I I would say by a four day or depending on how long you stay,
29:45
tickets or at least at least 24 hour.
29:47
Taking something like that you just hop and hop on and off the
29:51
public transport. Public transport is very good
29:53
and in most occasions or in many occasions you're faster down by
29:58
taking a taxi for instance, and much, much cheaper.
30:01
Now as far as the conference goes, if somebody can't attend,
30:05
but they're, I mean, look at the speaker list, It's just
30:08
fantastic. They want to play a part.
30:11
They want to hear some of these presentations or see them.
30:15
Are there any options for those folks?
30:17
Yeah. The conference is fully virtual,
30:19
fully hybrid, So you can buy a Virtual Ticket.
30:21
You can buy a Hybrid ticket. With the Hybrid ticket you can
30:24
also sometimes I heard for people this I don't know.
30:27
In the morning I had two or three calls.
30:29
I stayed in my hotel room. In between I listened to see
30:32
various sessions. Then I moved over to the venue.
30:34
Everything is possible. And so also, if you can't join
30:39
in Berlin, then just go for virtual tickets and you can
30:43
attend all the sessions live or the recordings, etcetera.
30:47
That's great. What are What are some of the
30:49
main themes for the conference this year?
30:52
Not very surprisingly decentralized identity, it's
30:56
surely one of the the key themes.
30:58
So decentralized identity we had just a few weeks ago the EU
31:04
parliament approved the EI does to regulation which then brings
31:07
us an EU decentralized identity wallet.
31:10
So we are really moving from sort of theory and standard
31:13
development and and ideas to more practical use cases,
31:18
practical implementations and that is one of the topics that
31:22
that play a very important very central role at EIC we surely
31:29
also look a lot about the intersection of AI and identity.
31:33
So how will AI impact things and how does identity play in so I I
31:39
sometimes tend to use the term a identity, so AI for identity,
31:44
identities for AI. How will we deal with identities
31:47
of sort of autonomous component systems that act on our behalf.
31:51
So hard digital double s or however you'd like to call it,
31:55
but you also will look at enterprise Digital ID.
31:58
We will have a track which goes into digital ID, deep dives
32:02
where we really look at things that go really deep into it.
32:06
We will have one track that is called Fortress Identity, which
32:10
is really looking at more the the, the, the identity security
32:15
aspects if you like to say. So as usual trends, innovation,
32:19
very important. What is?
32:20
What is happening? So it's everything from sort of
32:23
down to earth things such as a session or if you have SAP
32:28
identity management, what's next was the end of life.
32:31
That will be covered as well as the future of consumer identity
32:35
as decentralized identity has some privacy topics.
32:37
We will have Max Trems as a speaker again.
32:41
That is the one who who fought A lawsuit against the EU regarding
32:47
the privacy regulations and frequently succeeded here.
32:51
It's a very interesting person and from from that perspective.
32:54
So it's it's an interesting mix and I think it's some 250 plus
32:58
speakers we'll have ADIC 230 plus sessions.
33:04
So there's something for everyone and I think it's also
33:07
even if you're there and I hope everyone will be there even then
33:12
you probably will need the the virtual part of your hyper
33:16
ticket to sort of visit some of the sessions after afterwards
33:20
because you because there's so much you can do always in
33:25
parallel. And I hope also that that a lot
33:27
of people were there because I love to talk with all the people
33:30
from the identity industry, the end users, the vendors, the
33:34
consultants etcetera. I think it's always a very, very
33:37
good exchange and it also gives me a lot of thing, a lot of food
33:41
for thought, also me for the next couple of months.
33:44
Absolutely. So thinking about the keynote,
33:47
is the keynote just you up there speaking or do you bring in a
33:50
couple of speakers, kind of talk to us about the keynote and what
33:54
goes into the preparation for the keynote?
33:58
I think it will this year only be me.
34:01
At least it was the latest that I had.
34:04
Yeah, it's only me. Last year I think we had a bit
34:07
of a mix. This year we decided to go back
34:09
more to a traditionally keynote idea.
34:13
So I will talk about Vision 2030 rethinking digital identity in
34:17
the year era of AI and decentralization.
34:20
So what I will do is really look at what do I expect to change
34:25
across the sort of the entire domain of identity.
34:28
So with these identity identity we see AI coming up, we see we
34:34
we we see that this will also impact enterprise identity T
34:38
management in in different ways in consumer identity management
34:41
truly also will be significantly impacted by decentralized
34:44
identity. But we also have other types of
34:48
changes like more policy based access controls, more
34:51
orchestration orchestration I feel is a very hot scene.
34:55
And bringing this all together I'm looking at what do I expect
34:59
so to speak a bit identity management to look like or
35:02
digital ID to look like in a couple of years from now.
35:05
That will be my my topic for the keynote.
35:08
I have a lot of lot of ideas here, but I haven't really
35:12
started yet with building my deck and and creating this
35:16
keynote that will take me take me some time.
35:19
So that presentation definitely is always the one which takes me
35:24
longest of all the presentations I do for.
35:27
You don't seem like the type of person to get nervous, but
35:30
you're going to have a lot of people in the audience.
35:33
Does that even affect you? How many people are in the
35:35
audience? Or do you look at it as another
35:38
day on the job? Usually for the opening keynote
35:40
there are a couple of hundreds in the room overall at the
35:44
venue. We expect to be definitely north
35:46
of 1000 with some peak times sometimes where where where is
35:52
we also that have every a couple of events where we have
35:56
extremely high virtual attendance.
35:58
I think there are a few things you also can watch with a with a
36:03
first peak trust free ticket. So some of the we usually had
36:07
some of the pre session workshops were very selected
36:09
things available and and sometimes this turns up to way
36:13
north of 1000 people listening in live doesn't make me nervous
36:18
I I don't have to say it's probably the only presentation
36:23
throughout the year that really makes me nervous at least a bit
36:26
so so you you you may see me talking a bit more battling a
36:30
bit more walking around things like that.
36:33
So yes, at least under the hoods I'm a bit nervous and who knows,
36:38
we may may observe a difference compared to other occasions.
36:43
I know when I'm up public speaking, the nerves start in
36:46
the beginning, but then once I get into it, I forget, forget
36:51
that I'm even there. You know, I was looking at the
36:53
yeah, you get used to it. I was looking at the the list of
36:56
speakers fantastic. And I don't know if all the
37:00
sessions are outlined yet in the schedule, but you probably know
37:04
them. What sessions do you think
37:06
really jump out that you're excited for?
37:08
Oh, I just really wrote a block on that, by the way, at our
37:14
website where where I looked at some of my favorites.
37:17
Yeah, I see highlights. So it's at the the Queer Co
37:20
website where you go to the block, then there is an EIC
37:23
2024. Don't miss these highlight
37:25
sessions. And so there are really, really
37:29
many different sessions. There will be a deserialized
37:34
identity deployment boot camp with some some very experienced
37:38
people running this. There will be an advisor to the
37:42
drone Federal Ministry of the Interior and Community looking
37:45
at EI DAS, two in Germany experts talking about the latest
37:49
on EI DAS legislation and what it means.
37:53
We will have AI Think a very cool panel on redefining human
37:56
identity in the AI era from digital evolution to AI
37:59
integration with people like Scott, David, Joe, Andrew,
38:03
Johnny Brennan under John, Nick, Mothershaw, Drummond, Reed and
38:08
Iris. And so there are really many,
38:11
but we also, for instance have a best practice presentation from
38:14
IKEA about passkeys in the enterprise.
38:17
So there's something in for for for for everyone down to things
38:21
like best practices for re synchronizing AD and enter ID
38:25
after forest recovery, which has done really motted down to earth
38:30
part. As I've said that there's
38:31
something in for everyone. The agenda is in a pretty
38:35
advanced state already online, so you can look at this.
38:38
It's not 100% ready, but there's I think a pretty good state
38:42
nowadays and you two definitely must not miss.
38:45
Yeah, I see 2025 S I really love to have you there.
38:50
And then we maybe can do a bit of podcast recording, live or
38:54
live things that we, by the way, we'll have a studio again this
38:57
year. So you missed that opportunity,
39:01
but let's look forward to next year.
39:03
Yeah, we definitely have it on our on our list of things we
39:08
want to do. You know, I mentioned I looked
39:10
through the speaker lineup and 22 of the speakers at this
39:14
year's EIC. I've been guests on the Identity
39:17
at the Center podcast and two other folks are going to be on
39:21
within the next two months. And then you've mentioned Joni
39:24
Brennan a couple of times. I've been in communication and
39:27
I'm scheduling time to have her on the podcast.
39:30
And then you mentioned IKEA. I I've reached out to Martin
39:34
from IKEA. He has to go through obviously a
39:38
approval process internally, but assuming he can get approved, I
39:42
like to have him on the show. So I mean, it always comes back
39:45
to identity as such a small circle, you know, it's as big,
39:50
but at the same time, we're all connected one or two degrees
39:53
apart. I wonder who are some of the
39:57
speakers that people might not know of?
40:01
Maybe they're not, as you know, well known that you think we'll
40:06
make a big splash at the conference this year.
40:09
OK. That that's a great question.
40:12
And then so it's just as election as I don't want to
40:15
leave anyone out here. I I think who's definitely very
40:20
interesting as a speaker, that is Emily Vanderlande.
40:24
She will teach you to talk at our our cybersecurity conference
40:28
last year in December. And she is really someone who
40:33
does great presentation, has like great knowledge, She's very
40:36
astute. So she's definitely someone
40:40
worth listening to. I I like Joe Carson.
40:46
He's probably more more popular see so chief security scientist
40:50
at the linear. He's an extremely good speaker.
40:55
I I find and I was like conversations with him which
40:58
really made a lot of a lot of fun or a lot of fun.
41:03
I think there's some who else so, so many of these.
41:06
You know the problem is I know really really very many of these
41:11
say it's relatively difficult for me to judge with maybe not
41:14
not as popular or not as well known.
41:18
Let's phrase it like that. I think Omri gas it might be
41:23
very worse also to to listen to his from a Serco.
41:27
I had some very interesting conversations with him over
41:30
time. We have people from the private
41:33
equity business to look at it more from a market investing
41:36
perspective like Philip from Crawford and and so many more.
41:39
So it's it's really hard to pick pick the people and clearly
41:43
there are some of the let's say usual suspectors here as well
41:48
which which are they're more or less every year, which are just
41:53
very good. So it's a really, really
41:57
incredible line up of speakers again this year.
42:00
And I yeah, trust, trust, go come to ESC and you come and
42:04
listen to whomever you want. Really is like I said, 22 alumni
42:09
of the Identity at the Center podcast.
42:11
You just mentioned Omri. He's one of the two that are
42:13
scheduled in the next two months.
42:16
The others, Patrick Harding from Ping.
42:19
You know we're swimming in the same pool, I guess, is the the
42:22
summary. That was a tough question, Jim.
42:24
It's like asking like what what's your favorite child or.
42:27
I mean, you know Martin, I think he answered it very
42:29
diplomatically and very well. I think it's interesting to to
42:32
go to conferences and listen to new voices because we do hear
42:36
from the same people a lot and there's nothing wrong with that.
42:39
But I I love to see new faces and and new points of view and
42:43
things like that and you know, kind of pass the torch along,
42:46
right. I think at some point we have to
42:47
develop, you know that cycle right within the community I.
42:50
I think it's always about the right mix.
42:53
So there are people who have something really important and
42:57
and well able to tell every year and you also need people who
43:00
come in with new perspectives, new ideas and I think we have
43:04
quite a good mix. I think the good thing is if if
43:05
you have so many speakers at the end, the mix comes a bit
43:09
automatically anyway, and I think this is this is important
43:13
to have. Well, I'm looking forward to
43:14
hopefully attending next year in person.
43:17
It's been on the bucket list item I think for Jim and I for a
43:19
while. I say international travel is a
43:21
little bit difficult sometimes for for stuff like that but we
43:24
will make it a point to try and figure that out.
43:26
I'd love to do podcasty things at conferences as as I like to
43:30
say you wrote another article and want to shift gears away
43:33
from the conference and this was a a A blog post on the Cooper
43:38
near Coal website and we'll have a link in our show notes and it
43:41
talks about SAP and the identity management end of life and and
43:45
what's next. This came out looks like a
43:47
couple weeks ago, March 13th, and I'm curious what are your
43:52
thoughts on sort of that announcement and I know you
43:55
cover it here, but can you kind of summarize that that's blog
43:59
post? Yeah.
43:59
So, so at the end of the day, the point is, is pretty simple.
44:02
SAP announced that they will retire or have an end of life
44:06
for their SAP Identity management solution by the end
44:11
of 2027 seven with an extended maintenance period until 20-30.
44:17
That means that customers need to think about it and I think if
44:22
you're in the identity space for a while as well.
44:24
So if you take a time of three years until or 3 1/2 until the
44:30
end of 2027 or 6 1/2 until the end of 2033 1/2 years, it's not
44:37
much for making the the plan for what is your your future of of
44:42
your IGA. Part of that how does it play
44:45
into your identity fabric, selecting the tool implemented,
44:50
doing the migration, getting everything connected also making
44:53
a step forward even 6 1/2 years are will will become far too too
44:59
too too quickly. And so it's something where
45:02
where where the customers that are affected by this desire.
45:06
This is a really very large group of customers they they
45:10
need to start thinking about this now and there are
45:13
definitely a variety of options. The one thing I I I definitely
45:17
can recommend this not just replacing the one tool by
45:21
another tool don't do it tool centric.
45:24
Start with thinking about how how should your identity
45:26
management look like. We discussed a ton of things
45:28
around what is happening in identity management.
45:31
So this identity Fabric, the perspective on beyond workforce,
45:35
I am the impact these centralized identities may have
45:40
etcetera. And at least what you do should
45:42
be that you prepare for change and then select something that
45:47
works for you not now only but specifically.
45:51
So when we look at 2030, which also works in 2038 or so on.
45:56
So you need to plan ahead and you need to take the time to
45:59
think that through thoroughly to make the right decision.
46:04
And it's not just the tools and there's more around it.
46:07
And I think it's the point is also people frequently refrain
46:12
from this conceptual parts and whatever look at processes and
46:16
policies and doing a sorority tools choice etcetera.
46:19
That costs so little time and money compared to the cost and
46:24
time you spend for the project for the deployment that it
46:27
doesn't make sense to to to to be tied here with the money
46:32
because that also will save you money later on.
46:35
So the best thing you can do is spending the time ahead.
46:37
And you. When you build a house, you have
46:39
an architect first and a couple of other people thinking about
46:42
it, and that saves you money. If you don't do that well, you
46:45
spend money later on more money. And so I just can say everyone
46:50
who is in that situation needs to make the change.
46:53
Step back now. Start with planning.
46:55
Start with talking to the experts, the system integrators,
46:59
the analysts, the others to figure out how your identity
47:02
management, if you'd like to use the term identity fabric should
47:05
look like in the future. What is lacking?
47:08
What do you need to do? How can you make the transition
47:11
as smooth as you can And then you also in the SAP world.
47:15
That means you need to also think about how does this, how
47:17
is the interplay you may have whatever an SAP access control
47:20
on premises. Not today.
47:22
You may think about SAP Cloud IAG as the the sort of the the
47:28
SAS successor of the OR you may may think about maybe past lock
47:33
or so or whatever else. There are a couple of vendors
47:35
and I've been writing leadership compass documents on that.
47:38
Just look it up how to write once or is it someone who does
47:41
both who has this? Is it the IGA tool that is
47:44
strong in the SAP world? What is the right solution that
47:47
needs to be figured out? Well, you may have other things
47:50
in Blaze, Octar or Microsoft Entry ID etcetera for the access
47:53
management piece. How does this work together?
47:56
Only when you do that right, you will make the right decision and
47:59
succeed. Martin, can anything be implied
48:02
from this in terms of Sap's strategy relative to identity as
48:08
a whole? So what I am getting at with
48:11
that question is you don't address it here at all, but what
48:15
about the future of Giga or Customer Identity Cloud?
48:20
Should we be thinking that there's implications here that
48:23
SAP might also be backing out of that market?
48:26
I don't expect this to happen because it's that's this really
48:30
totally different group in within SAP.
48:33
So there are different teams doing different things.
48:38
SAP also will continue to sell the Cloud Identity services and
48:42
Cloud IHG solution as well as access control remains strategic
48:48
products access. The role is that the sort of GRC
48:52
tool quotas for for the the SAP world and IAG is the sort of
48:58
success which also does a bit more And Cloud Identity services
49:01
are sort of a identity management solution which is
49:04
very, very standard focus, supports skin, supports OS
49:07
etcetera. But it doesn't come with
49:09
specialized connectors into the the broader non SAP world.
49:13
So it's that that SAP is is going out of this market
49:17
entirely. It is just that there will be no
49:20
direct success or duty SAP identity management product
49:25
which is an on premise IGA solution.
49:27
And from what I understand the the reason for that is that sort
49:31
of the technology stack that is used by it will be retired and
49:36
due to that actually also the product will be retired and SAP
49:42
decided not to have a sort of a direct successor here.
49:45
But if you're ASAP customer, if you're ASAP shop, you need to
49:48
think about what does it mean in this ecosystem.
49:50
And then then when you're SAP shop, you also probably will
49:53
need to think about how does this impact or how does this fit
49:56
to my transition from which May probably is currently still
50:01
running my transition from the traditional R3 world ECC to
50:06
Esper, HANA and all these things you need to bring together.
50:09
So it's a complex challenge you're facing.
50:12
Do it right, don't just look for a tool, do it.
50:15
Really. Probably.
50:16
I think that's, you know, really good advice because SAP is
50:20
notoriously difficult from an identity standpoint because of
50:23
the complexity of it. And there are lots of options in
50:27
this space and it's probably worth taking the time to
50:31
discover what those are. There might be ones that are
50:32
established players. There might be new ones out
50:34
there that, you know, maybe this is an opportunity for a, you
50:37
know, someone to come out of stealth say, hey, we're going to
50:40
fix this thing, but definitely would encourage people to look
50:43
at that three years to six years, depending on how you want
50:47
to look at it, right. Based on the end of life is not
50:49
a long time. As you mentioned, typically if
50:51
you have SAP, you're probably a larger organization, which means
50:54
you probably have a little bit slower cycle.
50:56
So you probably want to get started now and not get caught,
51:00
you know, later on kind of scrambling at the last minute.
51:02
Martin, you've been very generous with your time and want
51:04
to get things wrapped up here so we can let you get on with your
51:07
evening and and things like that.
51:10
What do you do for fun? Because I I see you're writing
51:13
all the time. You know, you're, you're
51:14
talking, you're at conferences, you're doing analyst work, you
51:17
know, all that kind of stuff. But what do you do when you're
51:20
not doing identity things? Oh, a lot of things.
51:22
So I have a family. It's a family first thing.
51:26
We like to travel a lot, so it's still a lot of spent a lot of
51:30
time on vacation, having also the European advantage of
51:34
probably having a bit more days off for for that purpose I spent
51:39
a lot of time cycling. I've been skiing the week before
51:42
last week. I love cooking and eating
51:45
deliver maybe a bit too much, so that's a constant fight.
51:49
Unfortunately it also interferes a bit with with with the cycling
51:55
part. So overweight, being good on the
51:58
the bike is not not a perfect combination.
52:00
On the other end the bike helps, usually getting the weight again
52:04
a bit down. So a lot of things I read a lot.
52:09
I love watching my favorite football, AKA soccer team.
52:13
And yeah, things like that. So if you had to cook one dish
52:19
to impress somebody, what is the thing that you would prepare for
52:23
whoever that somebody is that you're like, I have to nail
52:25
this, Like this has to be, you know, represent representative
52:29
of of me and how I want to present that.
52:32
My my signature dish, so to speak.
52:34
It depends a bit because I I would say my signature dish is
52:38
saffron risotto with mushrooms usually don't know the English
52:42
term pifoli in it which are relatively small types of
52:46
mushroom. And then on on top of that I I
52:52
usually do filly off from from from beef in in small cubes very
52:59
shortly. Chanterelles by the way is the
53:01
term for for the the type of mushrooms, so very small cubes
53:06
of beef filly shortly in the pan and it was a bit of a very dense
53:12
source based on a good four. If I if I have guests or don't
53:16
want to do a risotto you need to be aluminute then then I
53:22
probably would go for something like a just a cocoa boeuf
53:27
bourguignon with some Qatar from potatoes and stuff like that.
53:32
But yeah, it depends a bit. You you have multiple arrows in
53:37
your quiver, it sounds like, to be able to prepare depending on
53:40
the guests. I mean that sounds that all
53:42
sounds great. My wife makes great risotto and
53:45
is very specific in a good way about making sure that we're
53:50
ready to eat when the risotto is ready.
53:52
You plan your timing around the risotto 'cause there's such a,
53:55
you know, a a very, you know, fine process or finite process
53:58
where you have to like, make sure you're eating at the right
54:00
time. And and it's such a simple dish
54:04
which needs so much experience to to really make it perfect.
54:09
So this is really something which took me quite a while
54:11
until I was where where I'm and then at some point you can.
54:14
It's super easy because you exactly know how to do it.
54:17
You're total experience, but it takes really long until you're
54:20
there. I'm still in the former.
54:22
I have a rice cooker. That's where I'll toss my rice.
54:25
Then I'll leave the heaviest. That's.
54:26
Not really A. Risotto it is not, but it's one
54:30
thing that I can make. I'll leave the heavy lifting to
54:33
my wife. She's an excellent chef, so I I
54:35
take advantage of that. Jim, if you had to cook
54:37
something to impress somebody, what's your go to?
54:42
That's interesting. So I grew up my high school
54:45
years with my single dad, and now he said he could write a
54:49
book called The Bachelor Chef. And it wasn't that any of the
54:53
food sound like really like masterpieces, like what Martin
54:59
was talking about. But he had several dishes he
55:02
could make and he thought them all to me.
55:04
And the the greatest one, and it was very simple, was roast beef
55:09
sandwiches. And he would just get the, the
55:11
roast beef very thinly sliced, get the Auju and kind of like,
55:17
you know, roasted in that fresh Kaiser rolls and lots of
55:23
horseradish. And it sounds super simple,
55:26
right? And it is super simple, but
55:28
everybody who eats them just as well, this is one of the best
55:31
roast beef sandwiches I've ever had.
55:33
So that would be my go to. All right, Simples, there's
55:37
nothing wrong with simple. If you can nail the basics, I
55:39
mean, that's that's great. I can't say that I'm much of A
55:42
chef. It's been a long time since I
55:44
put anything together. But I will just say fast food
55:47
DoorDash is what I do. It's what I would go with.
55:51
We'll go ahead and wrap things up for this week.
55:52
Martin, thank you so much for your time.
55:54
I know you're a busy guy, but always a pleasure to catch up
55:56
with you. We'll have links in our show
55:58
notes to all of the stuff that Martin talked about, the
56:00
conference, discount codes, all that good stuff.
56:03
Jim and I are on the web, idacpodcast.com, Twitter, X,
56:07
whatever it's called when you're listening to this at IDAC
56:09
Podcast, Mastodon at IDAC Podcast, at Infosec dot
56:13
Exchange, and yeah, connect with all of us on LinkedIn.
56:15
Like I said, there'll be links in our show notes.
56:17
And with that, thanks everyone for listening and we'll talk
56:19
with everyone in the next one. You've been listening to
56:24
Identity at the Center. We hope you've enjoyed the show.
56:28
Make sure to like, rate and review and we'll be back soon.
56:32
But in the meantime, hit the website at
56:34
identity@thecenter.com and find us on Twitter at IDAC Podcast.
56:42
See you next time on Identity at the Center.