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Episode 4: Band Culture by Design · The Unconducted Curriculum

• Chris: What if the most important thing you teach in your band room isn't found in the music? It's culture. So how do we create a band culture where students want to belong, are willing to work hard, and can bounce back when things don't go as planned? That's what we're exploring today on the unconducted curriculum. so what does band culture really mean? We talk about it a lot in our profession, but what does it really mean? That's what we're gonna talk about today. so first I think we need to kind of define what band culture or define culture in the first place. culture is the unwritten rules, traditions, expectations, and values that shape an organization. I have this debate with a lot of people all the time is what's the difference between culture and character? Well, character is a set of moral and mental qualities unique to an individual. So can those two things affect each other? Yes, I think they can. Yeah. tina: Most definitely, yes. Chris: And so, That's kind of what we're going to talk about in this this first few minutes today is how does culture shape character and how can character shape culture? So Tina, in your experience, how does culture shape someone's character? tina: I really just think it's the expectations we put on ourselves and put on who we hang out with, if it's who you're teaching with or who your friends are, whatever that is, it's just it's how how that's being modeled in that aspect. Chris: so in your experience, Tina, how have you witnessed the culture that is in your programs, how has that shaped someone's character? have you had any experiences where somebody comes back to you and says, the things that I learned in band really helped me do this, do that, have you experienced any of that in your career? tina: Yes, most definitely. just that students because I taught mainly middle school, students would come back and say that I I really helped prepare them for high school and just how band would work, how marching band was. Because I always wanted them to love music and love what they were doing with high expectations on what they were doing and also just supporting their friends and supporting the band that they're in. And I really think that helped them being a freshman going into high school, because it is scary for them. You know, it's it's a it's an unknown, but trying to make them realize it's just being a musician in a different group. And you're now part of a different team, but you still have friends that were on your team from last year. and that a Chris: Mm-hmm. tina: team can have the same culture as the team you just left, but you have to, be a strong leader and help when you're not asked to be helped, and all of that, and ask questions to people that you need to ask questions to so you can be as strong as you possibly can be. Chris: Yeah, I mean the biggest thing about band culture to me is that it starts from day one of their beginning band. you're shaping tina: Yes. Chris: the culture you're letting them learn what the culture of the program is and what the expectations of the program are. tina: Mm-hmm. Chris: And if you don't start that from day one, it's very hard to maintain that culture, not just throughout the program. tina: Mm-hmm. Chris: From year to year, and eventually tina: Right. Chris: that culture is going to change over time. so culture shapes character, the environment and traditions that we grow up in, you know, they strongly influence how tina: Right. Chris: we think about things and our own individual character. and I know for myself, the culture of my high school band program, really taught me a lot of responsibility, taught me a lot of just work ethic and understanding what it meant to be a part of a team and work for something as a unit and it not always being about just yourself. and I think that's that's one of the biggest things that I tried to tina: Yes. Chris: foster as I was teaching as well in my programs, tina: Yeah, I was very fortunate also to have a very strong high school band director that Did we it had a great culture? We were very motivated. We loved what we were doing. We always had goals. He was very positive in what we were doing and pushed us to be our best, pushed us to audition for our region. You know, it just wasn't about like marching band or concert Chris: Mm-hmm. tina: season or whatever. It was about building our musicianship individually and in small groups and then as the big team. And that really stayed with me. And even going into college. college, same thing. I mean it was very much a being the best of the best, And so that also like that's, where I kind of got it all from. And also like starting in beginnering band, like you're saying, I always thought my job was to make sure kids loved being in band, had a great time making music, and that they could go on the internet and be able to read a piece of music that was on the internet by themselves. You know, they Chris: Mm-hmm. tina: were independent learners that they understood what they were doing to be able to go, hey, I want to do this flute part and look it up and they could count it, they could figure it out. They could play it and that would they would love it. So it just Chris: Right. Right. tina: made a world of difference. The enjoyment of it. Chris: It does. It it absolutely does. You know, and and for me, I think that was I think it took me a long time to figure this out. But what really drew me to becoming a teacher, yes, I love music and that was a passion that I had. But I think when I realized that I'm using music as a vehicle to teach teach students to be, tina: Mm-hmm. Yes. Chris: you know Great grown-ups, great human beings. tina: Right. Chris: I think that's when I really tina: Great people, yeah. Chris: yeah, I think that's when it really started to click for me a little bit more. that was always something that I thought was my biggest responsibility was when they left my program, that they were going to be able to be, you know, positive contributors to society, great people, tina: Mm-hmm. Chris: all of those types of things, whether or not music was still. tina: Right. Right. Chris: something they did the rest of their life, wasn't the foremost thing. You know, yes, I want them to have a love of music. I want them to enjoy music. And I think that they did. That that's not an issue. tina: Right. Chris: But just being able to contribute to society and be good people and be able to look back on the program and think about the things that tina: Right. A part of something. Yes. Chris: yeah, and the things that they learned that they didn't expect to learn. You know, and I think so many kids go into band thinking it's just about music. and that's I think that's yes, that's a big part of what we do, but that's not the only part. In fact, for me it was maybe like fifty percent of what I did. and character, we talked about how culture shapes character, how what we do and what we teach can shape somebody's character. give them experiences that shape their future. Same thing the other way, character can shape culture. You know, because people make up cultures. Their collective actions, their values tina: Right. Chris: and leadership of individuals can shift or rewrite cultural norms. we see that in today's world all the time. I mean there's leaders out there that don't have great character, and then you see that in the culture of that society and different things like that. tina: Right. Chris: You know, so we have to be very mindful of that and understanding that, we've got to create culture that we wanna see from our students before we're ever gonna have the musical success or any of that kind of stuff. because that's just part of developing the student as a whole. And we can't just limit ourselves to developing musicians, we have to develop good people. and then develop good musicians, and so I've seen this in the past, where we have we have our rules, we have our expectations, we have them posted in the band hall, and I may go in as a clinician or whatever, and I kinda like to do this just because I'm curious. Kind of goes back to that whole curious thing that we've talked about. I usually get there early and if I have a little bit of time, I just kind of look around the band hall, see what they have on the board, see what's going on in the room, seeing what what expectations are, and I've been in places where I see on the on the board, these are our rehearsal expectations. And then, we get into the clinic and none of those rehearsal expectations are are being, reinforced or there's no expectations. tina: Right. Chris: Nobody's following that. And as a clinician, I'm not afraid to talk about it. What is this behind me on the board here? I see those. What why are we not living up to that? tina: I see those, why yeah, yeah. Right. Chris: and for me, I mean, there's there's definite reasons why they're not living up to it. What do you think contributes to that problem? tina: You know, I think all of us have to have that routine that we're following daily and the expectations have to be the same And sometimes we have to tell ourselves, you know, because it does, it takes a lot of energy to start Chris: Mm-hmm. tina: the room with the positive energy. You need to be presenting that so this the students can feel that energy. and that's kind of tough. and also like having that expectation is that they're following the timer and how they come into the room calm and how they're ready when that timer goes off to go to ready position. And you literally when the timer goes off, no matter what, you start and make them go to ready position. You know, even if it's no. Chris: Yeah, you can't still be in your office and you know tina: No, no. You know, and also like i even if something happens and you need to do something, you still can have them go to ready position when that buzzer goes off and say, okay, we are ready. I have to take care of this. You are now going to practice your scales for, two minutes. But Chris: Yep. Yep. tina: at least you've still done the procedure, and then you've kind of pivoted. We've talked about you have to pivot sometimes. And then when you're ready again for whatever you have to take care of, you get back on that podium, have them go to ready. and start and is every kid sitting right is every stand up you know a lot of times I go into a rehearsal or whatever and I'm walking around pulling stands up higher but you have to make sure that they are ready and if their stands aren't higher you you're on that podium saying everybody raise your stand up higher a few of you are you know whatever and where their stand is positioned you just have to be picky nonstop I was always pink par at the beginning of the school years with my beginners because we'd always have like some name games that we'd play to try to help get to know each other. And I was always pink par and I love pink. And then I became through the year picky par because I was really picky and paying attention Chris: Mm-hmm. tina: to every little detail. But you have to you have to put forth that energy. Chris: Yeah. tina: to remind them because they don't sit like that at home. You know, they don't sit Chris: No. tina: in ready position at home, when they're on the couch or whatever, watching TV or in their room or whatever they're doing on their computers or or in their classes. You know, they're in their math class. They're not sitting up straight with feet both feet file on the floor, shoulders back, doing the the L that I do underneath their chin to their their sternum right there to make sure they're they're tall enough and their posture is good or the chance, feet flat, all that kind of stuff. Yeah. If you're don't Chris: Yeah, all that stuff. Yeah. Well and for me, tina: Yeah. Chris: For me, if they're not following those procedures that are on the wall or are in tina: Right. Chris: your band handbook or whatever, there's there's three reasons why. either they're not communicated. And when I say not communicated, tina: Mm-hmm. Chris: they can be on the wall. But honestly, ask yourself, are they looking at those and following those? they're not. It's just another thing on the wall. tina: Mm-hmm. Chris: you may talk about them in the first week of camp or the first week of school, but do you revisit that when you need to? and are there consequences? Are are you holding them accountable? Those are the three the three things that I see pretty regularly. And I can even ask, a director, it's like, so have you communicated, not just put them on the wall, but have you discussed these expectations? Well, sure. We discuss them on the first day of school. Have you discussed them since? Well, no. Okay. it's like we tina: Yeah. Chris: talk about at the beginning of class, and I would do this until it becomes just a habit. we're talking about at the beginning of class, we talk about our learning goals, what we want to accomplish learning wise. But until it is set in stone, I remind them and we talk about. our behavior goals and and expectations too. and so it's it's not a one time, you're one and done time of th type of thing, and we have to remember that. so the culture that we're building influences things like student motivation, retention, which I have tina: Yes. Chris: a lot of folks ask me, how can I how can my retention be better? And I always say, how's your culture? tina: Yeah, just the culture the consistency. Consistency. Chris: What is your culture? You know, it's the co yeah, it's the consistency, it's all of that. You know, yeah, the positive things, all that. tina: Yes, and the praise and the the teamwork and everybody shuffling, everybody shuffling for everyone, even if they make a mistake. It's it's they they feel like it Chris: Yeah. It's it's tina: they they can make mistakes in the environment that they can you know get better and feel good about themselves. it is it's that confidence building that you're you're doing and and also helping them become leaders. Chris: Yeah, and one of the biggest tells to me, on culture when I walk into a a school or a rehearsal or whatever is the rehearsal environment. if you if you don't have a rehearsal environment that is respectful, if you're having to talk over kids, you're having to yell at them, they're not being respectful to each other yourself, things like that. or it's just kind of chaotic. That's a culture thing. we we say, Yeah, that's classroom management, but it's procedures. tina: Well and it's not just yeah. Chris: That you build into your culture, you know. Same thing with performance. tina: it is. It but it's also yeah, it's also like what does the room look like? I've been in somewhere the front of the room, Chris: Yeah, it's all of that. tina: it it's got stuff everywhere and it's not organized Chris: It's cluttered. tina: or labeled. It's very cluttered and you just throwing stuff and and like when I've had people Chris: And I will tell you that tina: like change that and even like label stuff and it just Chris: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. tina: it makes the whole atmosphere and room feel calmer. They the students even know where to put things back, it makes a huge difference. Chris: And I'll tell you that I don't I can't recall, not to say that it's not possible, but I cannot recall a band hall that I've walked into that was disorganized, cluttered, all that stuff, that the rehearsal wasn't also chaotic and disorganized. it all goes together. It really does. tina: Yes, it really, really does. Chris: so rehearsal environment culture influences performance. Because if we don't rehearse well, we don't do all these other things at the top level, we can't do those things on the field at the top level. and I've even related that back tina: No. Chris: I've been a few contests where right after they perform, early season contests, judges get to come down and give them a little mini clinic, you know, things like that. tina: Mm-hmm. Chris: And maybe their performance was not. up to what they need to be at that point, there was flaws that should be, they they shouldn't be making at October 1st or whatever. well, the first thing I look at when they come up to me is I look at their uniforms. How are they wearing their uniforms? are their shoes scuffed or their bibbers wrinkled tina: Yep. Yep. Chris: and creased and dirty? Are they, you know, because if they're not taking pride in that, are your instruments or yeah. tina: Yes, all of that. Yeah. Or instruments. Are your instruments polished? All of that. It's very important. Chris: Like if you're not taking pride in that, and what I tell tell those bands is, okay, look at your shoes. That's the first thing I say to them. And they're looking looking at me like I'm crazy. And I'll ask them, what do you see? dirty, scuffed. Okay. So is your performance. And I relate it all back to that. it's like if you can't do the simple things really well. than marching backwards at 160 beats a minute on your, front of your foot while you're playing sixteenth note patterns and a hundred degree heat, tina: Right. Chris: that's a lot harder than cleaning your shoes. Yeah, you know. tina: Your shoes, yeah. Yeah, way harder. Chris: So, those little things matter. I mean that's part of the culture. student relationships, if if you have a lot of drama in your program. You know, and we all deal with drama with teenagers, even in the most healthy cultural environments, and I had tina: Hmm. always there. Chris: students at times where, whoo, drama was bad, and we just had to we had to sit down and talk about it and get it to get it worked out, you know. They're gonna have that with with people, not just teenagers, I mean adults too. You've all had that that drama filled parent, tina: no, everybody. Yeah. We have to work through it. Yes. Yeah. Chris: Leadership development, that's part of the culture, How are you developing your leaders? And are you just naming somebody a leader because they're a good player? maybe they're the first tina: No. Chris: chair player, but do they have leadership ability? And are you training them and are you developing them throughout the year? and just the overall student experience. if you're able to retain your students from year to year, you probably have a good culture. But if you're losing lots of kids every year, then that's the first place you need to look. That's the first tina: That's the culture. Yes. Chris: place you need to look. tina: I agree. Chris: So, just a final question on this ask yourself if you, as the leader, don't intentionally build your culture, what or who is building it for you? Because culture doesn't happen by accident. Someone has to lead it. Okay, so just kind of keep that stuff in mind. it has to come from the top down, and you have to model the culture. that you want to build. It's really tina: Yes. Chris: just that simple. tina: And also, you know, we as directors, we sometimes have good and bad days, you know, or it might not be the Chris: Yeah, we do. tina: best day or some things are happening or whatever, but we still can model hey, this isn't my best day, but I'm still gonna give my best, and the kids can see that because they start to really get to know you. And you Chris: yeah. tina: know, they can see that, and and they just they respond to it. They'll respond to, okay, I get it. Okay, we're gonna still do the same things, but just we're all human, but we all have to kind of push ourselves to be that example. Chris: We are. Yeah. tina: And then be honest. It's okay to be honest and vulnerable that way, but you've got to be that example and push yourself to do that. And once you're doing it, it becomes a habit for you, it becomes a habit for all the students. Chris: Right. Right. tina: Discipline is not really an issue, it's just it Chris: No, it's really not. tina: just flows. It's just a very nice, safe environment that kids enjoy being in Chris: Yeah. tina: and a part of. Chris: And when we talk about, leading by example, I mean, there's a ton of things. I mean, you have to arrive prepared. You need to be the first one at the school in the morning. being consistent. And that's probably one of the hardest things is just being consistent, remaining positive and calm under pressure, like you talked about. We're all gonna have bad days. tina: Yes. Yes. Chris: but you know, I would tell my student, my student leaders. when you walk into this band hall, your issues that you have outside of band need to stay outside the band hall because you are in charge of a group of young people. You are affecting a group of young people. And I had to really make sure that I did that as well. I had a job one time where as an assistant director, and and we had another director who was younger than me. And he would show his emotions or his tired whatever he was going through. You you could just you just knew, and he wasn't very good at at being able to do his job effectively in that, and the head director would just tell him a few times during the year, if you can't control your emotion, you can't control your facial expressions, you can't be a good model for the students, then go home. And we'll take care of it. We'll take care of your classes, and and I think that that's something that that too to me is like, well, I don't want to ever get that speech, you know. I don't want to be in that position. tina: Right, right. But Chris: But it's true. Yeah, then take time, then take time. Mm-hmm. Yeah. tina: But if you need to take time for yourself, you need to take that day off. You need to have all that. You really do. Because it's it's your mental health that is, you know, and like like you're saying, y'all you you could see it. And you know, Chris: You could see it. tina: and if you can help, and that also like that other director saying, Hey, you need to go home and whatever, that's I don't think there's anything wrong with that. I think it's like you need to take care of yourself. And if there's anything we can do, yes, anything Chris: You need to take care of yourself. Yeah. tina: we can do to help, we will. And it and if help. Helping you is letting you know that we can take care of everything here for you. for you to have that that day to be able to whatever. I think that's so, so important. So important. Chris: Well, it i it is. It is, and that was kind of the thing was, you because, if you if if you're not in a good place, you can't tear care of all these kids. You know, if you're worried about tina: Right. It's true. Chris: other things, then you're not able to do your job effectively, then yeah, you need that time off, and so i if it's that to that point where that's tina: Yes. Chris: affecting you, then yeah, absolutely. you know. but yeah, leaving leading by example, being consistent, remaining positive, calm under pressure, treating tina: Yes. Mm-hmm. Chris: students with respect. I tina: Yes. Chris: can't emphasize that enough. I and I think that's gotten a whole lot better in recent times than, you know, tina: I do too. Chris: it was maybe when we were growing up, because tina: Mm-hmm. Chris: I, you know, tina: No. Chris: I got chewed out a few times in in words that I wouldn't be able to say these days, you know. Sarcasm, tina: No. And also sarcasm, you know, like it's like Chris: yeah. tina: yeah, it's it's you know, it the more the positive the comments can be. It it just just makes everything Chris: Yeah, absolutely. tina: way, way better. with than the sarcasm. Chris: And I know folks that that have a sarcastic, like that's their funny side, and that's how they tina: Right. Chris: they try to connect with students and things like that. And once they've kind of built a relationship with students and stuff, then it's kind of a give and take. But tina: Right. Yes. Chris: sometimes I've noticed too sarcasm happening where they think that it's funny and they're trying to build a relationship with somebody, but that kid doesn't know you very well and they're taking it not that way, you know. tina: Right. The wrong way. Yeah. Chris: So you to be real careful with that. tina: No, it's true. They do have to. You really do. it just Chris: Yeah, you do. tina: it can and also different personalities respond differently, Chris: Mm-hmm. tina: like you're saying, and they have to know you. I mean, you Chris: They do. tina: know, dad jokes are way better than sarcasm. like do some good dad jokes up there, and it's funny. You know, you can still be funny, but was it your thing? Yeah. Yeah. Chris: Well and that was my that was my way. That was my thing was was bad dad jokes, And kids would kinda go, Ha ha ha ha ha ha you know, it was like, okay you know. tina: They're great. Yep. They're great. yeah, I had some I had some ones that were like that too. They just knew it was coming. You know, it's just it well yeah, they know, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It is. Chris: They just knew it was coming, you know, and that's and that's that's fine, you know, but that's that's cool, whatever, you know. but you know, all of those things, if if we're not doing those things, and then we're up there talking about punctuality and attendance and rehearsal etiquette, preparation, tina: Right. Chris: respect it's like it tina: Mm-hmm. Chris: doesn't resonate because they're not seeing you do those things, you know, and yeah. tina: and even practicing. You're having asking the kids to practice and then and then you're up there and you don't know the score well enough or quick enough or whatever. And they can see that. You know, they can see that and they know, you know, Chris: Right. Right. They know. They know. Yeah. tina: but and I think it's okay also. That brings me to like if someone asks me something and I say something incorrect, like a wrong fingering or something, whatever, and they're like, No, Miss Parno, it's second. I'm like, my gosh, you're right. I'm like, Chris: Right. Yeah. yeah. You hurry win. Sometimes our brains are moving faster than our mouths and yeah, and and and and you do that a lot. tina: I was wrong. You have to admit when you're wrong because you're human and we all make mistakes. Yeah. And so fast. Yes. That's what I'm really, yeah. I do it a lot. I have a lot of good made up words and I know that, you know, but I do. Chris: Yeah, I mean but it but that's I mean, that's okay. It's like tina: Yeah. Chris: we're trying to do things and we're being excited about things and we're trying to, get the kids to understand things. And sometimes tina: Yes. Chris: you're gonna make a mistake or you're gonna say something that it was just wrong. You didn't you know mean to say it that way, but it's how it came out or whatever. But you do have to say, Oops, I'm sorry, I made a mistake. Or if you don't tina: Well, and it's also like Chris: know the answer, don't make up an answer. tina: No, I will say I will find that for you. You know, or or if it's something like kind of really cool or history of an instrument or something like that, you don't know, you just say, I want some I want y'all to give me the answer tomorrow. Y'all look it up. Whoever gives me the answer might get a band ticket or whatever, candy or whatever. You know, have them get involved in researching it too. But but Chris: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. tina: also like about laughing about yourself too, or things like how many times have I tripped tiny bit on the podium? Chris: yeah. Throw my baton. I did that a lot. tina: or I throw my baton by accident. Yes, yes, by accident. You know, and you have to laugh at it. And you know, and even if you do that, because it's okay to laugh at me. It's okay to but in a supportive way, that, are you okay? yes. I said I know that looked funny, so you can laugh, you know. It's Chris: Yes. Yeah, yeah. tina: it's that kind of stuff that, curates that environment too of what's going on. Chris: Yeah, no, I mean I I had a at one point in my career I was I was conducting a a very lyrical piece, slow, and I was making big motions with my baton and all this stuff, and I kept catching it on my podium as in my tina: Mm. Chris: up motion with my hand. And probably after the like the third time of it, losing my hand and flying into the band, you know, and they're all laughing and I'm just like tina: Yep. Like no more baton for you. Do not use one. Nope. No. No. Well, it's really not needed, but yes. Chris: Yeah, I'm like, okay, I'm not using a baton on lyrical pieces anymore. And for the rest of my career I never did, you know. Because even on the stage at Meyerson with a middle school band in nineteen ninety-seven, I think it was, and we're recording for OPS or Honor Band or something, and band's playing really well, and then two-thirds of the way through our final piece, you hear this kaklunk on the s on the floor, and it's my tina: And it's you god. Chris: My baton that had flown out of my hand. So you know, and kids just laugh tina: Yep, it happens. Chris: and I just laugh and we go on, you know. but yeah, you have to go tina: Yeah. Well, you saying that brought up it was like my third or fourth year of teaching. We're on stage playing the March. This is at UIL and the March had, a little craft symbol part. Very repetitive, and the handle broke. Literally broke and fell to the stage, very, very loud. All the kids are looking at me as they're playing. And I can remember the kid just picked up a stick and started playing on the symbol, just like a crass symbol thing. And when we got through with the march, I said, it's okay, everything went great and did thumbs up and whatever. But the judges even commented, that that distraction didn't distract them, that they looked at me, you know, and what was so impressive is that student had the leadership of himself to be able to go, I'm gonna just st still keep playing, but I'm gonna just do Chris: Right. tina: it with a stick. You know, so it's just those kind of things Chris: Well, tina: are gonna happen. Chris: and the way you react to those things is what makes kids tina: Yes. Chris: feel comfortable when things don't go well. tina: Yeah, you just it's okay, it's okay. You can mouth things Chris: It's okay. This episode of the Unconducted Curriculum Podcast is sponsored by Duo Music Clarinet Shop, a family-owned business specializing in clarinet repairs, rentals, and sales. They are a recommended vendor for many schools in Collin County and the Dallas-Fort Worth area and are highly approved by many clarinet instructors and performers. Duo Clarinet Shop is an approved dealer for Buffet, Selmer, Van Doren, Rico, Protec, Korg, and many more. Please visit their website at Duoclarinet Shop dot com for more information. I mean, I've told this this tina: can can have on that. Chris: story to a lot of people, and there's folks out there that were witness to it, that were judges in the room, that I'm friends tina: Mm-hmm. Chris: with and things like that. And every time I see them, they still bring it up. But I had my sub non varsity band at my high school, and we were in the sight reading room, and this particular band hall had no windows or any kind of outside light coming in. tina: Mm. Chris: and it also had the lighting system that after a few minutes of no movement, it would turn off the lights automatically. And so tina: yeah. Mm-hmm. Chris: we're up there, talking through, going through the the procedures, and this was the procedure before we have now where we can play, you know. So I was just they're fingering through and they're sitting very, very still and quietly, and and I'm conducting a little bit, but not. A lot, you know, we're just kind of going through the piece and talking through it and tina: Right. Chris: fingering through it and get to that part, and everything's fine. We start our performance, and we literally get two-thirds of the way through the piece and the lights click off, and it is pitch dark in the room. The only thing you can see is a little exit sign lit up in the corner of the room, you know. tina: Mm-hmm, yeah. Chris: And so the kids played like one more measure, because that's how we did sight reading, is we're always looking ahead one measure and They all stopped, and right about that time, I think one of the judges stood up and waved his hands or something, or the the host came out of the office and started waving their hands or something for the lights to come back on. And the lights came back on, and I just kind of stood there and I turned around, looked at the judges and real calm and I said, Well, that's a first for me, and they were laughing and I was laughing, and tina: Yeah. Chris: then the kids were laughing. because it was like I didn't go, my God, you know, and all this stuff. It's okay. We can't control that. We had to pivot, pivot. Ross Giller. tina: Right. It's okay. Yeah. You had to pivot again. Mm-hmm. I know. Pivot, I know. Chris: but you know, it was like and so they were like, Well, just tell them where you want to start and just start from there. I was like, All right, let's start at letter G or whatever it was, and went off and finished it out, and got a first division. And their whole tina: Right. Chris: thing was what they were so amazed with was this was a sub non varsity band. tina: yeah. Chris: and they were like, if that was my kids, they'd been freaking out. But you just kind tina: Mm-hmm. Chris: of stood there very calmly and then kind of laughed about it, and then they laughed about it. It's like they're gonna tina: Right. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Chris: follow your reaction, you know. So tina: Yes. Chris: kids, kids are watching you, kids will follow your mood they will follow your lead on a lot of those things. And if you're running around with your hair cut off trying to get for ready for rehearsal, rehearsal's not going to start very calmly. You know, it's you you're just you you gotta make the or focused. That's that's the thing. Because you're not and you're demonstrating that. So tina: No. Or fro focused. Yeah. Yeah. Right. Yes. Chris: you gotta you gotta be involved in that. you gotta make sure that you're you're demonstrating that every day. So that leading by example part is is crucial. and like I said, students will often imitate that culture they see rather than the culture they're told to create. I mean, that's that's that's just the way humans are designed. tina: Right. Chris: so Tina, how do we train our student leaders? So we're kind of going into the next section tina: Right. Chris: of building culture because your student leaders are gonna have a large part in that, but how do we train our student leaders? to be prepared for this instead of just giving them the title that they're a leader. What what do you do? What have you witnessed? I know you're working with McKinney High School right now in marching season. tina: Mm. Chris: give me some examples of what you think works in that area. tina: Well, it's developing their team as leaders, getting them together as leaders. I know a lot with like high school marching band things they have clinicians come in and do a leadership camp, even if it's their first day doing some team building with that. But even if you can't do that, you can kind of hold a camp with them, like a day before. everything starts or however you want to schedule that, but really having them understand their individual responsibilities. and also letting those leaders come up with different things together. You know, what Chris: Mm-hmm. tina: are the goals that you have for yourself? What are you or and I could talk about drum majors or section leaders or squad leaders or whatever, but it's like what are your goals for the brass or what are your goals for the Woodwinds or Color Guard? as a drum major team, what are your goals as your team? So having them come up with goals, having them come up with strategies, also like really talking to them about being positive. they are your leaders. Use them. Have them on the field. Have them helping students, constantly and just telling them always be positive. And if there's something that you don't know what to do, go to a director. But to always be positive. But also, it's also you leading by example and them hearing you correct students or help students for them to just follow what you're doing is huge. so I think a lot of that, that's just kind of the basics of it. And I know like within your book, your book has lots of really good tips and things to do for developing leaders. So tell us a little bit about that. Chris: Well In my career, like when I first started being a director of bands, which was when George Strickland retired at Glen Rose and I tina: Right. Chris: moved up from the middle school and took that spot. we started going at the time I think Highland Park High School was hosting Dr. Tim for a leadership workshop and it was like a two, three hour thing on a on a weeknight during summer band time. We started going to that. we did that for a few years, you know, and tina: Right, yes, love those. Chris: and it was great because it got the kids pumped up and understanding a little bit about what was going to be expected of them and things like that. But of course it didn't stop there. I mean, we went into a lot more tina: Mm-hmm. Right. Chris: details after that and things like that. and then later in my career, still at Glenrose, I started bringing in Sassy. we started having some in-house, in-house tina: yeah. Yes. Chris: two-day workshops, things like that. Which were fantastic. And in fact, so fantastic that they taught me a lot about how do we wanna approach leadership with our students? How can we what kind of activities, what kind of things can we do to really make tina: Mm-hmm. Chris: them understand that? Because just talking about it isn't gonna do it. they have to they have to do it, they have to experience it, they have to understand, tina: Right. Chris: from that that side of things. and so after doing that for a few years, then we started doing kind of my own thing, kind of taking taking from this and what that, what I learned from all the different experiences that I had had, and kind tina: Right. What you learn from them. Yes. Yes. Exactly. Yep. Chris: of putting together my own workshop that we did over two days. And honestly, for me, I think that was the best. experience for the kids because we tina: Mm-hmm. Chris: were building something together and it wasn't somebody different coming tina: Right. Chris: in and kind of telling us how to do it, but us tina: Mm-hmm. Chris: experiencing that together as directors and student leaders, which I think made it a little bit more meaningful in the long run. We did things like one year at Glenrose, since Glenlake Camp was right there, the Methodist Church camp, they had a big ropes course and I took the the leaders out there the first day tina: Mm-hmm. Chris: and we did the ropes course together. And I'll tell you what, that was bonding. You had to, tina: Yes, I bet it was. Chris: I mean that that's a that's an experience if you've never done a a ropes course with your leadership team. That that is it was number one, it was very challenging from a physical standpoint, but also from a mental standpoint on several things. and just, you know, physically tiring. but it w it was amazing. and I still have those kids talk about that that ropes course day. but yeah, in in my book, I've got a whole two day planned out, leadership workshop that you can kind of look at and give you some ideas on how to structure it, what kind of activities you can do that that really hit home with the kids and all that stuff. But even after you've done that, we would do weekly leadership meetings. tina: Yeah. You have to yeah. Yes. Chris: And it was Our big week rehearsal each week was our Monday night rehearsal. We rehearsed every morning for an hour before school and then Monday nights from six to eight thirty. And so at five o'clock we had a leadership meeting, and that was not like here's what we're doing in rehearsal today, here's what you know. It was how did last week go? tina: Right. Chris: What issues are you having? How can we help you? it was a check in. And then a little bit of, okay, this week, this is our focus, blah, blah, blah, just so you know. But a lot of that was just time for them to voice their concerns, time for us to check in with them, you know, and make sure that everything's going okay. And if it's not going okay, let's work through it as a group. Because maybe one tina: Right. I Chris: of the other student leaders has experienced that tina: Yes. Chris: and has some insight. tina: Well, it also gives them opportunities to speak and encourage each other, but also feedback. Like let them like say, Well, this is not working. And it's okay if it's something that you're doing too. Like it's okay for them, I don't think that is working here or whatever. all of that and for them to just create it, yes. And they can create a solution too to what Chris: And be open to that. Yeah. Be open to that. Mm-hmm. tina: it could be, Chris: Well, and that kind of goes into the next thing of creating that safe space. tina: Yes. Chris: You know, and you do that with your leaders where they have they feel safe and comfortable being able to tell you those things. This isn't really working. I hear a lot of complaints from the from the sections about this, Is there a different way we could handle this? Whatever it is, and being open to that, because Not everything we do is gonna work, the first time out. Or something that worked last year with this group may not work the same way with this new group, and we need to modify that a little bit. And in getting that feedback is really important. But you can't do that if you don't have those weekly check-ins and you don't have that time where they feel like they can talk to you and tell you what's going on. And then tina: And you know, and also the director saying, I hear you, you know, I hear you. I'm Chris: Yes. tina: seeing it too. Or, I didn't see that. Or, Chris: Right. tina: and like you said, like even if like they're seeing that some people are not getting along or whatever, let's find a solution. Thank you for letting me know that that they're comfortable and feel like you said, like it's a safe space, but you have to have meetings every week or more, Chris: Every week. tina: even during lunch. Even it's during all your leaders come in the band hall and eat lunch, anything like Chris: Well, and that tina: that. Chris: that kind of leads me into that safe space, not just for your leaders, but for your band kids in tina: Yes. Chris: general, because that was one thing that I really enjoyed. my last several years of teaching was my conference period was right at the lunchtime. So I had my lunch period and a conference period back to back. So it was about an hour and a half ish. And so with that I could have All three 30-minute lunch periods, would come in, kids would come into the band hall and eat lunch or study or whatever or practice during lunch. And then a lot of them, just came into the office and ate lunch. And I mean, any given day, we might have 15 to 20 kids sitting in the band hall office because we had a very large office that we all shared. And just we're just talking, you know, tina: Yes. Chris: and Not necessarily about bann stuff, just talking about life, just listening to what they're going through, what they're experiencing, things like that. But that gives you it also a a a a better feel about what's going on in your kids' lives. And they start asking you for advice and they start sharing things with you that you may not get just in the you know normal situation. And so having that space, and I would have You know, it'd be a lot of the same kids every day. and some of them were leaders, some of them not necessarily leaders. but then we would always get that that freshman kid that would come and, and and somebody would invite them, Hey, come on, come and have lunch with us in here, because they'd be sitting out in the hall or something eating lunch, you know, and tina: Right. Yeah. Chris: they'd come in, and they would just be very timid at first, you know. And I had kids tell me this, freshmen. It's like I was terrified to come in. Like they were all tina: Right. Chris: like mostly upperclassmen. Like, why am I coming in there? You know, and it's like, and and I'm a big guy and I'm kind of, I can be intimidating. I've I hear that not just from kids, but other adults at times. I mean, I understand that. that's something I'm well aware of. But then they would always end up like, but you're just a big teddy bear. Like, tina: Mm-hmm. Chris: they have to kind of get to know that, you know, yes, you have high expectations. Yes, you're gonna hold them accountable. But we all make mistakes, and I'm not holding that against you if you if you've made a mistake. We're tina: Right. Chris: gonna talk about it, we're gonna correct it, and then we're gonna move on, And they would just be like, I can't believe I mean, like, my gosh, you you just let me come into your office. And I'm like, Well, of course. You can come in and sit and talk and eat and whatever, and that would just kind of build, you know. But I had a lot of kids tell me that, And then the other thing that I would hear a lot during that lunchtime, is kids would say this, we might be talking about something that happened, that I had to address or this or that, and they'd be like, Mr. McClellan, we you know, if you have to raise your voice, which I very rarely really yelled at anybody, it was always like once a semester. I might get, you know, vocal tina: Mm-hmm. Right. Chris: about something. to make a point or whatever. But I was pretty calm all the time. but they would say, if you, those po those times when you have to raise your voice or yell at us or something, like that didn't upset us. But when you say you're disappointed in us, that hurts, like that really got to us, And to me, that was like, well, that's when you know your culture is going in the right direction. tina: Right. Chris: You know, if they're concerned about you being disappointed in them, then you're teaching them the right things. You're demonstrating the right things. They want to please you, and the first time I heard that, I mean, I even kind of got a little knot in my stomach, because I didn't want them to feel that way because I was disappointed in them. I just wanted them to know tina: Right. Chris: that this isn't your level of, what you normally do. So, but tina: Well I I would see sometimes a new student coming in because it our area is very transient. It's like, you have move ins and from all over and like the I would hear the kids, we just don't do that here. we we don't we don't do that. We don't play our horns like that or we don't, question things or blurt out. We just, it and then that those net this is at a middle school level where, you have those kids say that, Chris: Mm-hmm. tina: So it just, it it it means a lot, like you're saying. It's like, yeah. And I always had the whole they always knew the Miss Par teacher look when I was upset that I'd have that look. And it was like, Chris: yeah. Yeah. Yeah. tina: you know, they knew and they all got still and they all looked Chris: Mm-hmm. tina: and s you know, and got s sat up straighter and everything like that. But then I would go, All right, we're getting back and I'd smile really big and kind of funny. And then we'd get back and it was like Chris: Right. tina: and I've I've had kids come back that were like in high school and things and say, Miss Parry, you know, something would happen and then you would just turn that switch off and you were just back to whatever. I said, Well, I'm not gonna hold a grudge against someone. I'm not gonna like keep it going, but it had to be addressed. And that was my way of them knowing that yeah, you're disappointing me right now without saying those words. You cannot do that. But you're exactly right. But then it's like you just go, Okay, we're back, you know, and it just helped it. Chris: And that's the key, I think. You know, tina: Mm-hmm. Chris: a lot of younger teachers that I talk to, they're afraid to hold kids accountable. They're afraid to to instill this sense of discipline because they're afraid they're gonna quit and I'm like, it's how you tina: Or they're yeah. Chris: it's how you do it. It's not that you're doing it, tina: You approach it. Mm-hmm. Chris: but it's how you approach it, And if you're mean about it and you hold grudges about it and all that kind of stuff, yeah, they're gonna quit. But if you can tina: Yeah, no. Chris: address it. And they still understand that you care about and this is, in the best interest of you and our organization, and you go on from there, then it it works. It's fine, you know. tina: Well and that brings up when a student wants to quit or has quit. You know, my my biggest thing w was always, Are you in something? What are you involved in? Are you playing volleyball? Are you playing basketball? You know, are you in something? And talking to the parents about that also. But then also when you see in the halls, you still are kind and you wave at and how are you doing? and all that. I've had that happen a few times where then the next year they asked to join again. You know, that they missed it. And if Chris: Yeah. Yeah. tina: I wouldn't have taken those opportunities to still keep that relationship going, they may never considered joining back or being a part of it or coming up to me saying how much they missed it. You know, so Chris: Mm-hmm. tina: you have to think that, you know, and also other students see. You know, students come to me, but Miss Parr, they quit band. Yeah, but they're still so-and-so. And I still, care about them and, they're a part of my life. and so other kids see that too. Chris: They do. And I I'll be honest, I struggled with that at times. Mostly when kids would never come talk to me about it and they would just quit. You know, and tina: Mm. Well, yeah. Chris: there was no kind of communication or letting me kind of be able to understand what was going on. that's tina: Yeah, that's difficult. Chris: that's when it was difficult for me. I had tina: Mm-hmm. Chris: a young lady, and this was my final year of teaching, and it was during COVID, and I was out that fall. with my heart condition and couldn't go to school. And then I came back like December 1st and then s taught the rest of the school year. And then I retired at the end of of that year. That was tw spring of 21. And I had a young lady who was my first year clarinet player. She had made the Allstate band. but just for a lot of things that were going on during COVID and the ability for our seniors to be remote and not be on campus and she had this job and she was doing all these things, she ended up basically quitting band without quitting band. She was just went remote, and I still had a lot of kids who even though they were remote for everything else, I was able to convince the tina: They showed up. Chris: the leadership, the school leadership to please let them come first period band. Because, you know, yeah. tina: Yes. It was aw that was awesome. We had that also. It was great. Chris: And and so most kids, a lot of our kids did that, but she wasn't able to do that. tina: Mm-hmm. Chris: And she never came and really talked to me about it because she was afraid I was going to be really disappointed and upset with her. and then tina: Mm-hmm. Chris: we get to graduation. And at the end of graduation ceremony, the band always played at graduation. And after we played our last song after the the recessional. the band's seniors would come over to the band where we were set up where we set up to play for the ceremony, and they would expect me to give them one last dismissal. So a final dismissal. And so we did that that night, and this young lady came over and she was very hesitant, but some of the other seniors said, No, come, come, come, you know, And she came over and I just gave her a hug and she just started bawling. And she's like, I was so afraid. And I said, Why? this is a hard time. We're all going through different things, And she was just so relieved, But it was just like you gotta understand different things about what's going on. And like I said, I had I had a hard time doing that at times with certain kids. but I think I got better at it. I learned from it. I grew from it, and that's what we have to do. Yep. So There's a lot of other things we can talk about on this subject, of course. I mean, and we've actually got an outline here of several things that we haven't hit yet, and we're an hour into this almost. So we're going to kind of skip down a little bit and just talk about just some things to take away from this and some things that you can kind of do going forward that maybe you can try. And On my website, McClellan Band Consulting dot com. if you go to the unconducted curriculum page, there's a document on there that's a free download. And so I've got some reflection questions for you to ask yourself about the culture of your organization. If you're going in the right direction, building that culture, or if you have concerns about the culture of your group, then these are some questions that you can ask yourself and be honest with yourself about that I think will can kind of help you steer you in the right direction. The first one is what are three words you would use to describe your current band culture? The second one is are those the three words you want your students to use? Third one is what behaviors are you currently rewarding? So think back to earlier in the podcast, we're talking are you just rewarding musical achievements or are you rewarding other things as well? What behaviors are you unintentionally allowing? So things that maybe have gotten tina: Yeah. Chris: away from you or things that you've started to just overlook because it takes too much to deal with it. Do students feel that they belong? I think that's a big one. do students have ownership of the organization's goals, or do they feel like everything is dictated from the director? Are your traditions helping connect generations of students? Are you recognizing the behaviors that strengthen your culture? Are you modeling the culture you want to build? And that's another one that we have to really look at ourselves. And sometimes we don't like those answers. I've been through that myself. and then what is one thing you can change this upcoming week in trying to to steer your culture in the way that you want it to go? So those reflection questions will be on the website, McClellan Band Consulting.com. and and then just to kind of finish out today. Closing thought is a resilient band culture isn't created by one rehearsal, one activity, or one motivational speech. It is built through hundreds of small decisions. And a lot of times, those hundreds of small decisions are the things that eat us up. we're not willing to always do what needs to be done in the moment because we're tired or we're frustrated or we're running late. So, you got to think about those things. And those things are like how we treat students, how we communicate, how we respond to mistakes, how we recognize effort, positive reinforcement, how we preserve traditions, how we develop our leaders, how we include new members, how we celebrate each other, how we respond, how we respond when things don't go according to plan. Okay, so Those are just some closing thoughts. Those are the you know, one's a just a few of a hundred decisions we make every day. but those decisions are very important in building that culture. So Tina, you have any final thoughts tina: think the big question to ask is when your students go either to ninth grade into high school or they graduate, what do you hope they remember most about being a part of the band that you're in? You know, what Chris: Mm-hmm. tina: do they remember? What if they what are they taking to help with the whole process of going on to the next thing of their life? Chris: Right. Yeah. What do you hope they remember most about being a member of your band? And that's gonna tell you, yeah. tina: Yeah. Yeah. And what did they learn? Yeah. Chris: You know, and and ask some of your former students that question. tina: Yes. Chris: and ask your current students if if you're trying to build a culture, if you're concerned about your culture, ask your students what's the one thing that makes our band special? What's one part of our culture that you think needs attention? change one small thing. And that can strengthen the band's culture this week. So tina: Yes. Chris: that's why I'm saying just try something new this week. see what works for you. because we all know or ask the students, yeah, get them involved because doing the same thing over tina: Or just ask the students. Ask the students. Yeah. Yeah. Get them involved. Chris: and over again and expecting a different result, Right, right. I mean, and it tina: like to see or what would they like to do, you know? All of that. Chris: it's just I think. from a band director perspective and and standpoint, this could be the the most challenging thing that you do, but it can also be the best thing that you do, the most rewarding thing that you do. And it's going to have so many positive ramifications with everything else your program does when your culture is in the right spot. So I hope this is helpful to anybody out there that's listening and And like I say, go to our our website and check those resources and reach out if you have any questions, concerns, comments. We love to hear all of that.