Latest / Crime Stories with Nancy Grace / EERIE LEAKED JAIL VIDEO OF KOHBERGER WITH BRIGHT RED HANDS, "AMERICAN PSYCHO" SHIRTLESS SELFIES

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EERIE LEAKED JAIL VIDEO OF KOHBERGER WITH BRIGHT RED HANDS, "AMERICAN PSYCHO" SHIRTLESS SELFIES · Crime Stories with Nancy Grace

• 0:00
  Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace.
• 0:07
  Speaker 2: Eerie leaked jail videos of Brian Coburger with bright red
• 0:15
  Speaker 2: hands red red compared to the rest of his arm
• 0:21
  Speaker 2: bright red hands as American psycho type shirtless selfies emerged
• 0:29
  Speaker 2: on his phone. I'm Nancy Grace, this is Crime Stories.
• 0:34
  Speaker 2: I want to thank you for being with us.
• 0:36
  Speaker 1: I think it was an insult.
• 0:37
  Speaker 3: Don't ever try to convince yourself you mattered just because
• 0:41
  Speaker 3: someone finally said your name out loud.
• 0:43
  Speaker 4: In Cels hate women because they can't get them, because
• 0:46
  Speaker 4: they got the girl, not him.
• 0:48
  Speaker 3: If you hadn't attached them in their sleep in the
• 0:51
  Speaker 3: middle of the night like a pedophile, Kaylie would have
• 0:55
  Speaker 3: kicked yours.
• 0:57
  Speaker 1: Thank you, incredibly seedy, Lee, envious and jealous.
• 1:02
  Speaker 2: Those last words are from Keilli Gonsolvus's sister speaking at sentencing.
• 1:07
  Speaker 1: You know, drop the my girl. You are awesome.
• 1:11
  Speaker 2: But to Tonight's stunning reveal, these American psychotype shirtless selfies
• 1:20
  Speaker 2: and so much more emerging on Brian Coburger's phone. This
• 1:24
  Speaker 2: as we learn when he leaves the murder scene, and
• 1:29
  Speaker 2: believe it or not, there's still people fighting online saying
• 1:32
  Speaker 2: he's innocent and he was framed who himself he pled guilty.
• 1:36
  Speaker 2: It's emerging now that as he's leaving this horrific.
• 1:40
  Speaker 1: Crime scene, who does he call mommy? That's freaky.
• 1:47
  Speaker 2: But first I've got to get to this leaked sell
• 1:51
  Speaker 2: video joining me in All Star Pound to make sins
• 1:53
  Speaker 2: of what we're learning.
• 1:54
  Speaker 1: Let's look at it, everybody.
• 1:55
  Speaker 2: Let's look at the video together and straight out to
• 1:59
  Speaker 2: any at least joining us creator CEO of tent to Life, Annie,
• 2:03
  Speaker 2: thank you for being with us. Let's look at the Oh,
• 2:06
  Speaker 2: look at the hands. We're looking at it right now.
• 2:09
  Speaker 2: I don't know if you can see it on your monitor.
• 2:11
  Speaker 2: And here he is obsessive, obsessively cleaning the cracks and
• 2:16
  Speaker 2: the little line that goes around the bottom of your shoe.
• 2:21
  Speaker 2: What he got it in muddy behind bars? No, but
• 2:24
  Speaker 2: he's recleaning and re cleaning his shoes and looking around awkwardly,
• 2:33
  Speaker 2: looks very much. You know, this is telling me something else.
• 2:37
  Speaker 2: It's telling me that the way he looked and sentencing
• 2:40
  Speaker 2: and the way he looked in court is how he
• 2:43
  Speaker 2: really looks, kind of a blank, dead stare.
• 2:47
  Speaker 1: Okay, first of all, I want.
• 2:50
  Speaker 2: To analyze everything I can glean from this leaked video,
• 2:55
  Speaker 2: and who leaked it is anybody's guests, you know, Jill's
• 2:58
  Speaker 2: are falling over themselves to say it's not ours, it's
• 3:00
  Speaker 2: not ours, Hey, it's somebody's straight out to any at
• 3:04
  Speaker 2: least any.
• 3:05
  Speaker 1: What do you observe in the video?
• 3:07
  Speaker 5: I think it's so interesting because of course everybody is
• 3:10
  Speaker 5: glued to this trying to analyze it, because it's really
• 3:13
  Speaker 5: the first movements we have seen it for three years
• 3:16
  Speaker 5: of him, and we know we've heard that he has OCD.
• 3:20
  Speaker 5: So he's carefully cleaning the shoe. But I think what
• 3:22
  Speaker 5: strikes everybody as odd is when he's done cleaning it,
• 3:25
  Speaker 5: he puts that tissue up on top of the cage
• 3:28
  Speaker 5: and he just stares there, very still, very intently, looking
• 3:32
  Speaker 5: above the monitor that's in that cage, and almost looks
• 3:36
  Speaker 5: as though he's just thinking or evaluating it. And it's
• 3:40
  Speaker 5: really eerie.
• 3:40
  Speaker 1: I'm taking a look at him now. Now.
• 3:43
  Speaker 2: What was your comment regarding how he would look up
• 3:47
  Speaker 2: at the shelf.
• 3:48
  Speaker 5: Yeah, when he puts it up, you can see a
• 3:50
  Speaker 5: little bit if you look at his eyes, he's looking
• 3:53
  Speaker 5: directly above whatever's inside that cage, whether it's a TV screen,
• 3:57
  Speaker 5: some sort of maybe perhaps a tablet. I don't think
• 3:59
  Speaker 5: it's tablet though, I don't think he has.
• 4:01
  Speaker 1: Access to that.
• 4:02
  Speaker 5: And he's almost staring right above it, just looking at it.
• 4:05
  Speaker 5: I don't know if it's because he's angry at not
• 4:08
  Speaker 5: throwing it away because he doesn't want to contaminate the
• 4:11
  Speaker 5: sel I don't know why he wouldn't throw it away.
• 4:12
  Speaker 5: There's a trash can right there, but it just seems
• 4:16
  Speaker 5: very bizarre that he would use it to clean so intently.
• 4:18
  Speaker 6: Put it in.
• 4:19
  Speaker 1: Any elise any ELISEO.
• 4:22
  Speaker 2: Hold on, Annie, he can put trash in the trash can.
• 4:26
  Speaker 1: It would make the trash can dirty.
• 4:29
  Speaker 2: You're right, you remember, hold on, I got to throw
• 4:31
  Speaker 2: something at you. Hold on just a moment, but I'm
• 4:34
  Speaker 2: going to go very quickly to Chris McDonough joining me.
• 4:38
  Speaker 2: Has worked over three hundred homicide cases. I found him
• 4:41
  Speaker 2: on YouTube on his show The interview Room, former homicide detective.
• 4:47
  Speaker 2: Remember when he was arrested at his parents' place near
• 4:50
  Speaker 2: the Poconas, Remember that, and he was Annie, You've got
• 4:54
  Speaker 2: to remember this. And he was wearing plastic gloves at
• 4:57
  Speaker 2: like three o'clock in the morning, like a surgeon. And
• 5:02
  Speaker 2: we're wearing boxer shorts or shorts, and he was taking
• 5:07
  Speaker 2: trash and putting in plastic bags before the plastic bags
• 5:12
  Speaker 2: would be put into the trash, and then putting that
• 5:15
  Speaker 2: trash in the neighbors trash ban. So this guy is
• 5:20
  Speaker 2: not going to just throw something in the trash can,
• 5:22
  Speaker 2: especially something that might be dirty where he had re
• 5:26
  Speaker 2: cleaned his shoes behind bars.
• 5:28
  Speaker 7: Nancy, If we take a look at this video, there's
• 5:30
  Speaker 7: a couple of things that are pretty obvious here. Number
• 5:33
  Speaker 7: one is it's got to be a medical facility in
• 5:36
  Speaker 7: terms of a cell withinside of the jail or wherever
• 5:40
  Speaker 7: this is from, because there are two windows on the wall.
• 5:43
  Speaker 7: There's one on the door, if you'll notice, and then
• 5:45
  Speaker 7: there's one on the wall, and then inside of the
• 5:48
  Speaker 7: trash can there's a plastic bag and on the wall
• 5:51
  Speaker 7: there's a cord hanging down, and then of course it's
• 5:54
  Speaker 7: a medical bed and then there's railings around the toilet.
• 5:57
  Speaker 7: That means one of two things. A's in observation or
• 6:01
  Speaker 7: B they signed off that he's not a threat to
• 6:04
  Speaker 7: himself because that bag and that cord would not be
• 6:08
  Speaker 7: in that room absolutely.
• 6:10
  Speaker 2: Plus did you see the bedspread? I don't know if
• 6:12
  Speaker 2: you said that, I didn't hear you say. The bedspread
• 6:14
  Speaker 2: doesn't look like a uniform bedspread that you would see
• 6:17
  Speaker 2: in a cell, also in.
• 6:18
  Speaker 1: A regular cell.
• 6:19
  Speaker 2: I mean you remember the disarray in Jeffrey Epstein's cell,
• 6:22
  Speaker 2: which is totally totally not sop here. There's too much
• 6:28
  Speaker 2: stuff in a room if he was on suicide Watch exactly.
• 6:32
  Speaker 7: And that bed is a medical bed.
• 6:34
  Speaker 1: You can see it.
• 6:35
  Speaker 7: I mean even at the top. It's not the railing
• 6:37
  Speaker 7: on it. Still, so I took her observation here, and
• 6:42
  Speaker 7: whoever took this.
• 6:43
  Speaker 2: Show she did with styrofoam cups in his room?
• 6:47
  Speaker 1: Wait a minute, why what is he getting hot coco?
• 6:51
  Speaker 2: See those styrofham cups up there on the shelf.
• 6:56
  Speaker 1: He's not supposed to have that in his room. Where
• 6:58
  Speaker 1: is this place?
• 6:59
  Speaker 2: No, of course, this video is yett to be verified
• 7:02
  Speaker 2: by authorities, and the jails are falling all over themselves saying, hey,
• 7:05
  Speaker 2: we didn't leak it. Somebody leaked it, okay. Why is
• 7:08
  Speaker 2: he having hot cocoa behind bars? Why does he hat
• 7:11
  Speaker 2: starfham cups in there?
• 7:12
  Speaker 7: Well, that tells us he said two meals because he
• 7:16
  Speaker 7: comes with a drink and so he's he's saving those
• 7:21
  Speaker 7: cups for something and the staff is letting them have it.
• 7:24
  Speaker 7: To your point, So yeah, this is a medical situation.
• 7:28
  Speaker 7: I think before they put him into isolation, did.
• 7:31
  Speaker 1: Somebody bring you hot chocolate in bed? Because nobody brings
• 7:35
  Speaker 1: me hot chocolate? Why is he getting his How can he?
• 7:39
  Speaker 1: How is he allowed to keep all that in his room?
• 7:42
  Speaker 2: Is totally completely against the ordnance behind bars only I
• 7:48
  Speaker 2: don't care. But the thing is, he could do something
• 7:52
  Speaker 2: with all of those items, like it's claimed Epstein did.
• 7:55
  Speaker 2: He allegedly hung himself. Okay, that's bs. But that said,
• 7:59
  Speaker 2: that's why inmates are not allowed to have all the
• 8:03
  Speaker 2: accoutrement with them behind bars. So is he getting his
• 8:08
  Speaker 2: food in that room? He never leaves to even eat?
• 8:12
  Speaker 7: Yeah, I mean, and that's why there are three levels
• 8:14
  Speaker 7: of observation.
• 8:15
  Speaker 8: Right.
• 8:15
  Speaker 7: You got the two windows of one on the door,
• 8:18
  Speaker 7: one on the wall, and of course the video observation.
• 8:20
  Speaker 7: You've got eyes on this guy at all times, and
• 8:23
  Speaker 7: maybe this is part of the where docs are looking
• 8:27
  Speaker 7: at him going okay, he's not doing that, doing that
• 8:30
  Speaker 7: and that you know, that's out of my pay grade. Right,
• 8:32
  Speaker 7: But at the same time, maybe this is part of
• 8:35
  Speaker 7: what are we where are we going to put this guy?
• 8:38
  Speaker 7: And how off is she just yet?
• 8:40
  Speaker 2: Well, another issue is some of the shoes look like
• 8:43
  Speaker 2: they may have shoelaces.
• 8:45
  Speaker 1: That's totally disallowed.
• 8:47
  Speaker 2: You put two shoelaces together and suddenly you've got the
• 8:51
  Speaker 2: means when you can strangle yourself or somebody else.
• 8:55
  Speaker 1: Macdona.
• 8:56
  Speaker 7: Yeah, yeah, no, you're one hundred percent right, Nancy. And
• 8:59
  Speaker 7: that's that's why we got to take a fifty to
• 9:02
  Speaker 7: fifty looking at this thing and saying, Okay, could this
• 9:04
  Speaker 7: be AI generated and or if it is belonging to
• 9:08
  Speaker 7: the facility. Those are very legitimate questions that you just
• 9:12
  Speaker 7: are statements that you just made. He shouldn't have those situations.
• 9:16
  Speaker 2: I would not have imagined he would be in a
• 9:19
  Speaker 2: sale of this nature.
• 9:21
  Speaker 1: You know, joining me right now.
• 9:23
  Speaker 2: Karen Start, forensic psychologists, renowned TV radio trauma expert and
• 9:27
  Speaker 2: consultant at Karenstark dot com. Karen, what are you making
• 9:32
  Speaker 2: of what we are seeing?
• 9:34
  Speaker 6: So, Nancy, what we see is somebody who's very, very
• 9:38
  Speaker 6: anxious and think about who he is. He's a person
• 9:41
  Speaker 6: who needs to be isolated. He doesn't have contacts in
• 9:45
  Speaker 6: his phone, only eighteen He keeps himself to except for
• 9:48
  Speaker 6: his family dependency. He's on his own. And what I'm
• 9:52
  Speaker 6: looking at is somebody who's very anxious. We know about
• 9:56
  Speaker 6: the staring, we know about the fact that he has
• 9:59
  Speaker 6: that looking a eyes, and he's a killer and a monster,
• 10:03
  Speaker 6: but here he is just looking ahead, looking at his shoes,
• 10:06
  Speaker 6: very obsessive, compulsive, and I feel like he's extremely anxious
• 10:11
  Speaker 6: because he's being observed and he's not used to anything
• 10:16
  Speaker 6: like that. He keeps to himself. Also, the red, the
• 10:20
  Speaker 6: fact that his hands are red. It's as though you
• 10:23
  Speaker 6: know he's calling out, I'm in distress. I don't know
• 10:27
  Speaker 6: what that red is. If he cut himself and he
• 10:29
  Speaker 6: was bleeding, but he's having a really difficult time. Karen
• 10:33
  Speaker 6: being the air.
• 10:34
  Speaker 2: The red hands say, well, how in the world do
• 10:38
  Speaker 2: having really red hands equal crying out?
• 10:42
  Speaker 1: I'm in distress.
• 10:43
  Speaker 2: I mean, I'm just a trial lawyer, but I don't
• 10:45
  Speaker 2: understand what you just said.
• 10:46
  Speaker 6: Well, to me, it's just it doesn't make any sense.
• 10:49
  Speaker 6: It's very spooky, like why are his hands red and
• 10:53
  Speaker 6: he knows.
• 10:53
  Speaker 1: He's being abl I think I've got a pretty.
• 10:55
  Speaker 2: Good idea because he washes them obsessively. As we have
• 11:00
  Speaker 2: discussed in previous programs. He washes his hands to the
• 11:04
  Speaker 2: point his hands are absolutely cracking open and red.
• 11:09
  Speaker 1: That's why his hands are red.
• 11:12
  Speaker 2: Okay, so again, I'm just a trial lawyer, but as
• 11:15
  Speaker 2: a psychoanalyst, what does that tell you?
• 11:17
  Speaker 6: Well, that tells me he's obsessive compulsive. That's what he does,
• 11:21
  Speaker 6: just the way you see him cleaning his shoes. Nancy,
• 11:24
  Speaker 6: that's exactly what he's doing with his hands. He's doing
• 11:28
  Speaker 6: it over and over again, and that's how he copes
• 11:32
  Speaker 6: with his anxiety. He gets fixated on things. And this
• 11:36
  Speaker 6: is such a great example of somebody who's fixating on
• 11:40
  Speaker 6: a shoe and then staring at that.
• 11:43
  Speaker 1: Shelf whatever is there.
• 11:44
  Speaker 6: And if in fact that's why his hands are red,
• 11:47
  Speaker 6: he just washes them. As you said, over and over
• 11:50
  Speaker 6: and over.
• 11:57
  Speaker 2: Crime Stores with Nancy Gray to any Elise joining us,
• 12:07
  Speaker 2: what's the word on where this.
• 12:09
  Speaker 1: Video came from?
• 12:11
  Speaker 2: Is it like in the Shawn Combs Cassi e Venturia
• 12:14
  Speaker 2: beatdown video where someone is videoing a screen because it
• 12:19
  Speaker 2: appears I don't understand it appears out of the video.
• 12:22
  Speaker 2: You can see that storage shelf.
• 12:24
  Speaker 5: Yes, you can also see at the very start of
• 12:27
  Speaker 5: the video the corner of what looks to be a
• 12:29
  Speaker 5: computer monitor. So I believe that it's somebody who works
• 12:34
  Speaker 5: inside this facility who maybe wanted to show off to
• 12:37
  Speaker 5: their friends or family and say, look who's in our
• 12:39
  Speaker 5: facility who I'm watching? And they're videoing the actual monitor
• 12:44
  Speaker 5: of the recording inside the cell, and then they share
• 12:47
  Speaker 5: it with one person. That of course gets shared, ends
• 12:50
  Speaker 5: up all over the internet and goes viral.
• 12:52
  Speaker 4: See those droplets of blood right there, do you know
• 12:54
  Speaker 4: what that means? He was standing there with a knife
• 12:58
  Speaker 4: in his hand.
• 12:59
  Speaker 7: That is our cur spray where Ethan's throat was cut,
• 13:03
  Speaker 7: and every heartbeat create that pattern of blood.
• 13:08
  Speaker 4: The brutality here that has been exacted on these kids
• 13:11
  Speaker 4: is unimaginable.
• 13:13
  Speaker 1: It's unbelievable.
• 13:15
  Speaker 2: In the newly emerged jail house video linked by investigation pending,
• 13:22
  Speaker 2: the video is infuriating victims' rights advocates who think about
• 13:28
  Speaker 2: the brutality and how these four beautiful young students were murdered.
• 13:34
  Speaker 2: And now he has what a penhouse sweet at the jail,
• 13:39
  Speaker 2: He's got a huge bed by jail house standards as
• 13:43
  Speaker 2: opposed to a bunk. He has look at this plenty
• 13:48
  Speaker 2: of walking around room, shelfs multiple pairs of shoes.
• 13:53
  Speaker 1: He's he's doing fine.
• 13:57
  Speaker 2: The lead video has yet to be verified by authority,
• 14:00
  Speaker 2: but now his selfies, his freaky American psychotype selfies, are emerging.
• 14:07
  Speaker 1: Listen.
• 14:08
  Speaker 9: Besides the chilling selfie he took giving the thumbs up
• 14:11
  Speaker 9: hours after murdering four university students, Coburger's cell phone is
• 14:15
  Speaker 9: filled with creepy selfies posing shirtless and flexing his muscles.
• 14:20
  Speaker 9: Had Coburger gone to trial, experts from Celebright would have
• 14:23
  Speaker 9: testified about Coburger's phone and how he attempted to hide
• 14:27
  Speaker 9: his movements by powering off his phone with one hundred
• 14:30
  Speaker 9: percent battery driving to and from the crime scene, and
• 14:33
  Speaker 9: how his cell phone use would have taken down his alibi,
• 14:36
  Speaker 9: claiming he was driving around in the dark looking at stars.
• 14:40
  Speaker 9: Celebright expert Heather Barnhart says, if you're stargazing and taking
• 14:44
  Speaker 9: pictures of the sky, your phone needs to.
• 14:47
  Speaker 1: Be on and joining us right now. A very special guest.
• 14:50
  Speaker 2: Heather Barnhardt Lee, digital forensic investigator in the Brian Coburger case,
• 14:56
  Speaker 2: SAMs Institute fellow that System Administrative Audit, Network and Security
• 15:02
  Speaker 2: Senior director of forensic research celebrit which we learned way
• 15:08
  Speaker 2: too much about during the Alexan Marlaud double murder case.
• 15:12
  Speaker 2: She is also co author of Practical Mobile Forensics. Heather,
• 15:17
  Speaker 2: thank you so much for being with us. Tell us
• 15:20
  Speaker 2: what you meant by that statement.
• 15:23
  Speaker 1: He had so many selfies on this device. Brian Cooberger
• 15:27
  Speaker 1: loved himself.
• 15:28
  Speaker 10: There was a level of vanity and even if you
• 15:31
  Speaker 10: look at that image right.
• 15:31
  Speaker 1: There, the scrubbing of his knuckles, the redness in his
• 15:34
  Speaker 1: hands in the cell, he was obsessive.
• 15:36
  Speaker 10: He didn't like to be dirty, but he loved to
• 15:39
  Speaker 10: look at himself. We found cashed YouTube images of Christian
• 15:43
  Speaker 10: Bale as American psycho, standing in front of.
• 15:46
  Speaker 1: A mirror with blood spattered on his face.
• 15:49
  Speaker 10: And as you can see in many of these selfies,
• 15:51
  Speaker 10: he has that same look. He has that same dead
• 15:54
  Speaker 10: stare in almost this vain appreciation who he is and
• 15:59
  Speaker 10: what he thinks he is.
• 16:00
  Speaker 1: What else did you observe on Kyberger's phone? Oh my gosh.
• 16:05
  Speaker 1: So he was obsessed with serial killers.
• 16:08
  Speaker 10: He searched for non consensual porn acts.
• 16:14
  Speaker 1: He also was really paranoid.
• 16:16
  Speaker 10: In December, a few days before his arrests, he was
• 16:19
  Speaker 10: searching for ways to detail his car, possibly get rid
• 16:22
  Speaker 10: of his car.
• 16:24
  Speaker 1: So we know when you're searching for.
• 16:27
  Speaker 10: Psychopath paranoia, and I believe I heard he didn't want
• 16:31
  Speaker 10: to be called a psychopath. He knows he is, and
• 16:33
  Speaker 10: he was searching for that. He was extremely paranoid, but
• 16:37
  Speaker 10: also obsessed with just reading the behaviors and lifestyles of
• 16:41
  Speaker 10: serial killers.
• 16:43
  Speaker 2: When you say he would read about the lifestyles of
• 16:45
  Speaker 2: serial killers, what do you mean?
• 16:47
  Speaker 1: What was he looking up? On Christmas night? Right before
• 16:51
  Speaker 1: It's to the twenty six.
• 16:53
  Speaker 10: Brian went to serial killer timelines on Android and he
• 16:57
  Speaker 10: clicked on link after link two times for Danny Rowling,
• 17:03
  Speaker 10: Dennis Raider, Ted Bundy, and so many more. But what
• 17:06
  Speaker 10: he was reading where these serial killers were born, what
• 17:09
  Speaker 10: type of families they came from, what their crime was,
• 17:12
  Speaker 10: how they got called, did they ever hurt any pets?
• 17:16
  Speaker 10: It was extremely creepy. And think about the timeline. It's
• 17:18
  Speaker 10: Christmas night.
• 17:19
  Speaker 1: Most people aren't going to read about serial killers.
• 17:21
  Speaker 2: You know, I was looking at your analysis, Heather Barnhart,
• 17:24
  Speaker 2: and for hours he looked up Betty Lou Beats, Randy Kraft,
• 17:31
  Speaker 2: William Lee, Danny Rowling, Jewel Rifkin, Ted Bundy, John Wayne Gacy,
• 17:38
  Speaker 2: so many others, Rodney el Kowa, Robert Hanson, Gary Ridgeway. Wow,
• 17:46
  Speaker 2: it just Ed Kemper, one of the worst Dennis Raider
• 17:50
  Speaker 2: aka buying torture kill BTK. And that is on is
• 17:55
  Speaker 2: it Christmas night or Christmas Eve night?
• 17:58
  Speaker 10: It's on Christmas Night into the hours of the twenty
• 18:01
  Speaker 10: sixth of December.
• 18:03
  Speaker 2: And you said he had a huge cash of American
• 18:06
  Speaker 2: Psycho saved.
• 18:08
  Speaker 1: What they were they steals? Did he actually download the movie?
• 18:12
  Speaker 10: They were still shots from YouTube, So it's almost as
• 18:15
  Speaker 10: if he either captured it or his android captured it
• 18:18
  Speaker 10: on his behalf as he was watching. He watched Ed
• 18:20
  Speaker 10: Kemper mannerisms on YouTube. So different things that just don't
• 18:26
  Speaker 10: make sense, even if your criminology major do not make sense.
• 18:29
  Speaker 2: Now that's interesting that you said that, because I imagine
• 18:32
  Speaker 2: that the defense would be, well, he's a criminology student,
• 18:36
  Speaker 2: and that's why he's doing this. But you say, and
• 18:38
  Speaker 2: I agree that it doesn't make sense.
• 18:41
  Speaker 1: I have my own reasons, such as he's doing.
• 18:44
  Speaker 2: It on Christmas Night number one, but studying it and
• 18:49
  Speaker 2: getting screen grabs of Christian Bale without a shirt on bail.
• 18:55
  Speaker 1: That's not real. Okay, Christian Bale is not a serial killer.
• 18:59
  Speaker 1: But yet his.
• 18:59
  Speaker 2: Getting these shirtless selfies type shots of bail and saving
• 19:05
  Speaker 2: them and then re enacting them. So that has nothing
• 19:10
  Speaker 2: to do with his criminology degree.
• 19:13
  Speaker 1: But why do you say that, Heather.
• 19:15
  Speaker 10: I majored in forensic science. I majored in bloodstain pattern analysis.
• 19:20
  Speaker 10: You would get research projects. Your research wasn't to research
• 19:24
  Speaker 10: every single one. And repeatedly he visited Danny Rowling twice
• 19:29
  Speaker 10: on Christmas night and once earlier in November, so it
• 19:33
  Speaker 10: was repetitive reading. Almost to me, it felt like bedtime reading,
• 19:38
  Speaker 10: something that would relax him because he was home with
• 19:40
  Speaker 10: mother and father, so he didn't need them to put
• 19:43
  Speaker 10: him to sleep. Instead, he leaned into something like this.
• 19:46
  Speaker 1: Heather, do not move a hair? Joining me now?
• 19:49
  Speaker 2: Is Josh Colesrude, renowned criminal defense attorney, former assistant US attorney,
• 19:57
  Speaker 2: founder of coles Rude Law Offices. Josh, do your clients
• 20:04
  Speaker 2: ever totally scape you out?
• 20:07
  Speaker 8: Yes, of course, But you know I try to remain
• 20:10
  Speaker 8: objective throughout anything. I mean, when I was a prosecutor,
• 20:15
  Speaker 8: you know, we had situations that are very similar to
• 20:18
  Speaker 8: this case. As well, and you know, the most important
• 20:21
  Speaker 8: thing is to remain objective. And when looking at the
• 20:24
  Speaker 8: jail video in particular, the first thing that I think
• 20:27
  Speaker 8: about is that if this video is real, that it's
• 20:33
  Speaker 8: a betrayal of prison security. And if it's not real,
• 20:37
  Speaker 8: or then.
• 20:38
  Speaker 2: You're telling me Brian Coberger had his privacy violated, that's
• 20:44
  Speaker 2: your worry.
• 20:45
  Speaker 1: He's taking screen.
• 20:47
  Speaker 2: Grabs of Christian Bale, who plays American Psycho, and storing them.
• 20:54
  Speaker 2: He's obsessively reading bedtime stories about serial killers on Christmas Night.
• 21:00
  Speaker 2: And the first thing that comes out of your defense
• 21:02
  Speaker 2: attorney mouth is his rights have been violated because somebody's
• 21:07
  Speaker 2: peaked on him as he's shining his shoes.
• 21:09
  Speaker 1: Again, do you said that right?
• 21:13
  Speaker 8: So what's concerning for me is that number one, the
• 21:18
  Speaker 8: victims of this crime, their families don't want to keep
• 21:22
  Speaker 8: seeing Brian Coberger on TV being analyzed and being utalized
• 21:27
  Speaker 8: into a cult like figure. I mean, people aren't watching
• 21:31
  Speaker 8: this to learn, They're watching it to peak at a
• 21:34
  Speaker 8: monster in a cage, and that says more about us
• 21:38
  Speaker 8: than really then it says him.
• 21:40
  Speaker 2: Okay, first you said his rights were violated, and when
• 21:44
  Speaker 2: I got three inches up your tail pot. You went, oh, erase, erase,
• 21:49
  Speaker 2: Jurassic erase. What I meant to say is that I'm
• 21:51
  Speaker 2: all about the victims' families and I don't want them
• 21:55
  Speaker 2: to have to look at Coburger again. So that's your
• 21:58
  Speaker 2: backup argument. I'm asking you about creepy clients. At first,
• 22:04
  Speaker 2: you say Coleburger's rights have been violated because I can
• 22:06
  Speaker 2: watch them in a cell. Now you're saying what you
• 22:10
  Speaker 2: meant to say was you were trying to defend the victims.
• 22:13
  Speaker 8: There are many reasons why this video is disturbing, and
• 22:18
  Speaker 8: it's not just for those two reasons. There's also the
• 22:22
  Speaker 8: idea that even inmates have a right to privacy, and
• 22:27
  Speaker 8: if you just give that up and you strip that away,
• 22:30
  Speaker 8: then we erode the foundation of what our entire system
• 22:33
  Speaker 8: is based on, which is the rule of law, that
• 22:36
  Speaker 8: it's the justice is blind, that we apply the rules
• 22:40
  Speaker 8: equally to everyone. And that's what we're trying to say here.
• 22:44
  Speaker 8: This obsession with seeing Coburger behind bars, it really does
• 22:48
  Speaker 8: risk quadruple murder into somebody that's a cult like figure
• 22:53
  Speaker 8: instead of where he belongs, which is forgotten.
• 22:56
  Speaker 2: Well, maybe that's your interpretation Cole's rude thing, in my mind,
• 23:01
  Speaker 2: is turning him into a cult like figure to be
• 23:04
  Speaker 2: worshiped and admired again. The video has yet to be
• 23:07
  Speaker 2: verified by authorities. A couple of jails are going, oh,
• 23:10
  Speaker 2: it's not us. But as you heard earlier, Chris mcdonoughh
• 23:15
  Speaker 2: was stating, that's not a typical jail cell.
• 23:18
  Speaker 1: This looks like it's on a MED unit.
• 23:20
  Speaker 2: And I don't think it's going to be a typical
• 23:23
  Speaker 2: cell in any of two jailhouses I can think of.
• 23:26
  Speaker 1: So I went to Josh Cole rude to.
• 23:28
  Speaker 2: Ask him would he be schemed out basically by a
• 23:32
  Speaker 2: client who is for enjoyment bedtime reading about all these
• 23:37
  Speaker 2: serial killers and speaking of Ed Kemper as I recall
• 23:41
  Speaker 2: and correct me if I'm wrong, I've got a feeling
• 23:43
  Speaker 2: Heather Barnhart might know the answer to this.
• 23:45
  Speaker 1: His first victim was his own grandmother.
• 23:48
  Speaker 2: He shot her with a rifle and he said, I
• 23:51
  Speaker 2: wanted to see what it feels like to shoot up grandma,
• 23:55
  Speaker 2: words to that effect. So he does have that in
• 23:59
  Speaker 2: simpatico with Brian Coberger, because I believe he committed the
• 24:03
  Speaker 2: merger to quote see what.
• 24:04
  Speaker 1: It felt like.
• 24:06
  Speaker 2: See him reading about Ed Kemper on Christmas Night. That
• 24:12
  Speaker 2: scheves me out totally. And I have been with a
• 24:14
  Speaker 2: lot of killers. I've interviewed them, I've prosecuted them, I've
• 24:19
  Speaker 2: investigated them, I have covered them. I've studied them right
• 24:23
  Speaker 2: down to their DNA. And I got to tell you something, Heather,
• 24:26
  Speaker 2: I don't know what Cole's root is talking about.
• 24:28
  Speaker 1: Now. He's a victim's rights advocate.
• 24:30
  Speaker 2: He is a criminal defense attorney, and a really good
• 24:33
  Speaker 2: one at that. Heather Kemper, Christmas night, ten o'clock. What
• 24:39
  Speaker 2: with his pj's tucked into is now? I put some
• 24:42
  Speaker 2: guys will tuck the shirt into the pants and then
• 24:46
  Speaker 2: the pants get tucked into the socks.
• 24:48
  Speaker 1: I could just totally see that happening.
• 24:50
  Speaker 2: And reading about Kemper, whose first victim with his grandma
• 24:53
  Speaker 2: is own grandma.
• 24:54
  Speaker 10: You know when you say grandma, and the way Brian
• 24:57
  Speaker 10: saved mother and father and even texted where is father?
• 25:03
  Speaker 10: I won't father answer. It's too many similar behaviors.
• 25:08
  Speaker 2: Okay, before you start talking about him, going father, why
• 25:12
  Speaker 2: want mother pick up the phone?
• 25:14
  Speaker 1: That's a whole other can of worms. Can I get?
• 25:17
  Speaker 1: You know? I got to get this bus to steer
• 25:19
  Speaker 1: it back in the middle of the road.
• 25:20
  Speaker 2: I'm talking about Coburger freakily screen grabbing Christian Bale and
• 25:26
  Speaker 2: then making replica shirtless Selfie's flexing his muscles. Tell me
• 25:32
  Speaker 2: about the images ether we found.
• 25:34
  Speaker 1: So my husband worked this case with me, so it
• 25:37
  Speaker 1: was so crazy.
• 25:38
  Speaker 10: Imagine our conversations at home, but pictures not only just
• 25:42
  Speaker 10: forward in the mirror, but.
• 25:43
  Speaker 1: From behind, so he would get the.
• 25:45
  Speaker 10: Mirror reflection back while he was flexing.
• 25:50
  Speaker 11: A location of your emergency? Of the emergency? What is
• 26:06
  Speaker 11: the rest of the address?
• 26:09
  Speaker 6: Oh roads?
• 26:11
  Speaker 11: Okay? And there's a a house for and apartment. It's
• 26:14
  Speaker 11: a house. Can you repeat theadress to make sure that
• 26:17
  Speaker 11: I have it right.
• 26:19
  Speaker 6: I'll talk to you guys were we live at the lights,
• 26:22
  Speaker 6: so we're next to them.
• 26:24
  Speaker 11: I need someone to repeat the address for raification.
• 26:27
  Speaker 1: The address one one to two King Roads.
• 26:31
  Speaker 12: His searches were not limited to violent porn. Coberger's laptop
• 26:35
  Speaker 12: searches reveal his obsession with serial killers, co ed killers,
• 26:39
  Speaker 12: home invasions, burglaries, and psychopaths, and his obsession with the
• 26:43
  Speaker 12: Gainesville Ripper Danny Rowling. Rolling broke into the homes of
• 26:47
  Speaker 12: University of Florida students at night, murdering five, four female
• 26:50
  Speaker 12: and one male, raping the young women, decapitating one of
• 26:53
  Speaker 12: them and posing her head on the mantle in her home.
• 26:56
  Speaker 12: Rolling's murder weapon, just like Coburger A Kay barn Coburger
• 27:01
  Speaker 12: even downloaded a PDF about Rolling on his phone and
• 27:04
  Speaker 12: watched a YouTube video about a k bar knife, and.
• 27:07
  Speaker 2: We wonder where Coburger got his inspiration. Straight back out
• 27:12
  Speaker 2: to Heather Barnhart, joining US lead digital forensic investigator in
• 27:16
  Speaker 2: the Brian Coburger case, Heather, the obsession with serial killers
• 27:24
  Speaker 2: goes much deeper than we were originally led to believe,
• 27:29
  Speaker 2: and I feel confident if this case had been taken
• 27:33
  Speaker 2: to a jury, the jury would agree with everything that
• 27:37
  Speaker 2: you are saying.
• 27:39
  Speaker 1: Now.
• 27:39
  Speaker 2: The shirtless selfies you were describing that earlier, and taken
• 27:45
  Speaker 2: by Coburger at various angles that are eerily similar to
• 27:51
  Speaker 2: screen grabs he had from American Psycho the serial killer,
• 27:55
  Speaker 2: could you describe them, please, Heather.
• 27:58
  Speaker 13: Sure, he would take a sure off and stand in
• 28:01
  Speaker 13: his bathroom mirror and flex his muscles, but kate photos
• 28:05
  Speaker 13: of himself from multiple angles, so head on from behind
• 28:09
  Speaker 13: profile view and it was eerily similar to Christian Bale
• 28:13
  Speaker 13: in American Psycho, which was also present on his phone.
• 28:16
  Speaker 2: Guys, you're saying some of the shots we have a
• 28:19
  Speaker 2: Coburger and his selfies. Heather, what you are telling us
• 28:26
  Speaker 2: is far more extensive than what we have been told
• 28:30
  Speaker 2: about his online searches. I'm curious as to what you
• 28:35
  Speaker 2: learned about searches as it pertains to attacking women when
• 28:42
  Speaker 2: they are passed out, drunk and some type of a stupor.
• 28:47
  Speaker 1: What did you learn?
• 28:48
  Speaker 13: Everything he searched for was non consensual sex acts, so
• 28:51
  Speaker 13: think rape, sleeping, passed out, voyeurism. Nothing was what we
• 28:59
  Speaker 13: would tip in digital forensics called normal porn searches.
• 29:02
  Speaker 2: We also learn of Ciberger's attempt to erase everything digitally.
• 29:08
  Speaker 12: Listen three days after the murders, Coburger runs an eraser
• 29:11
  Speaker 12: software on his laptop which is used to wipe data
• 29:14
  Speaker 12: from the hard drive. The Celebrate team uncovers digital evidence
• 29:18
  Speaker 12: even after Coburger's best effort to scrub anything incriminating from
• 29:21
  Speaker 12: his laptop and cell phone. They even discovered a pattern
• 29:25
  Speaker 12: where Coberger went to extreme lengths to try to delete
• 29:28
  Speaker 12: and hide his digital footprint using VPNs incognito modes and
• 29:34
  Speaker 12: clearing his browsing history.
• 29:35
  Speaker 13: Heather, what does that mean he intended to commit this murder,
• 29:40
  Speaker 13: all these murders. He purposely powered down his own He
• 29:44
  Speaker 13: purposely cleaned up data from the device. And what's interesting
• 29:48
  Speaker 13: is the gap is about a month before the murders
• 29:51
  Speaker 13: even happened. So what was on that computer that he
• 29:53
  Speaker 13: needed to hide? That's what always drives me insane with
• 29:57
  Speaker 13: this investigation.
• 29:58
  Speaker 1: What exactly is incognito?
• 30:00
  Speaker 13: Incognitom mode is something specific to the Chrome browser that
• 30:04
  Speaker 13: lets you remain anonymous. It's not supposed to track any
• 30:07
  Speaker 13: of your browser history. However, just like leading the sheet
• 30:10
  Speaker 13: behind at the crime scene, he made mistakes. He downloaded
• 30:14
  Speaker 13: if you bookmark and autofill, so as you're typing things
• 30:18
  Speaker 13: that you want to see when you're in private browsing
• 30:20
  Speaker 13: or incognito, autofil remembers it because our computers and phones
• 30:25
  Speaker 13: want to please us. They know that we are lazy
• 30:27
  Speaker 13: humans that just want repetitive nature, So it remembers so
• 30:31
  Speaker 13: it can remind you.
• 30:38
  Speaker 1: Crime stores. With Nancy Grace.
• 30:44
  Speaker 2: Joining us, Annie Elise, creator and CEO of Tend to
• 30:48
  Speaker 2: Life and Star Off Seriously, I hit podcasts Annie again,
• 30:53
  Speaker 2: thank you for being with us. It's my understanding that
• 30:58
  Speaker 2: immediately after the murders, as soon as he turned his
• 31:01
  Speaker 2: cellphone back on, he called his mother, explain what you know.
• 31:07
  Speaker 5: So they spoke on and off throughout the entire day,
• 31:10
  Speaker 5: and one of those conversations was around ninety minutes long, which,
• 31:14
  Speaker 5: of course, in hindsight, I would be very curious to
• 31:17
  Speaker 5: know what those conversations looked like. But it's interesting we
• 31:20
  Speaker 5: have heard that he is very socially isolated, that Brian
• 31:24
  Speaker 5: has struggled to form personal pose connections with peers, with partners.
• 31:29
  Speaker 5: So through my case coverage and other cases, what I've
• 31:31
  Speaker 5: learned from that is that people who are like often
• 31:35
  Speaker 5: heavily lean on a parent, usually the mother too. They
• 31:38
  Speaker 5: want that emotional regulation, they want to feel grounded. So
• 31:42
  Speaker 5: I think that it makes sense that after the murders
• 31:45
  Speaker 5: he was trying to find his mom when he couldn't
• 31:47
  Speaker 5: get a hold of her, That's when he texts his
• 31:49
  Speaker 5: dad saying father, why did mother not respond? And I
• 31:52
  Speaker 5: think him calling her repeatedly and just wanting to have
• 31:55
  Speaker 5: those conversations with her, with her throughout the day could
• 31:59
  Speaker 5: reflect his need reassurance for feeling grounded, especially if he
• 32:03
  Speaker 5: was stressed and reeling from these murders.
• 32:06
  Speaker 2: Heyler Barnhart with US lead digital forensics investigator in the
• 32:09
  Speaker 2: Brian Coburger case.
• 32:10
  Speaker 1: Is that true his long, long.
• 32:14
  Speaker 2: Extended conversations with his mother, including immediately after the murders.
• 32:18
  Speaker 13: It's true, and this is typical behavior for Brian Colberger.
• 32:22
  Speaker 13: He every single morning, as early as five am his
• 32:25
  Speaker 13: time up until he would finally go to sleep at night,
• 32:28
  Speaker 13: constantly reaching out to mother and father.
• 32:30
  Speaker 2: Okay, joining me, Karen starked roround forensic psychologist, TV radio
• 32:37
  Speaker 2: trauma expert.
• 32:37
  Speaker 1: What does it mean, Karen well A means.
• 32:39
  Speaker 6: He never let go of his attachment to his parents, Nancy.
• 32:44
  Speaker 6: He really didn't have friends, and he was overly dependent
• 32:47
  Speaker 6: on them, so they were everything to him. When he's anxious,
• 32:52
  Speaker 6: when something happens, he's calling them and only them, and
• 32:56
  Speaker 6: at his age, you never see that development. That's because
• 33:03
  Speaker 6: that's not somebody who's a grown up.
• 33:04
  Speaker 2: You know too, Doctor Prea benergy In joining US board
• 33:07
  Speaker 2: certified forensic pathologist at Anchor Forensics Pathology, Doctor Priya, I'm
• 33:14
  Speaker 2: trying to figure out because I think there's a tie
• 33:17
  Speaker 2: in here. What is your analysis of why his hands
• 33:21
  Speaker 2: are so bright Neon red in that late jailhouse video.
• 33:26
  Speaker 14: Oh yes, I think it's uh, you know, the soap's
• 33:31
  Speaker 14: not the nicest, probably right, And I think that it's
• 33:35
  Speaker 14: a harsh soap and it is repetitive use. You know,
• 33:40
  Speaker 14: he's getting basically, he's scrubbing past the surface with irritation.
• 33:44
  Speaker 14: And I think you can see the repetitive nature of
• 33:48
  Speaker 14: everything he does and he just can't get clean enough.
• 33:51
  Speaker 14: And his anxiety is probably playing into it too that
• 33:55
  Speaker 14: you know, his circumstances are less.
• 33:57
  Speaker 6: Than ideal for him and he just can't get.
• 34:00
  Speaker 13: Up control over it. And he seems to be like
• 34:03
  Speaker 13: a control obsessive control freak, if you will.
• 34:05
  Speaker 14: And that's really you know, the cycle that he's trying
• 34:09
  Speaker 14: to break, but he can't.
• 34:11
  Speaker 13: And I think it's using the same selp and scrubbing
• 34:14
  Speaker 13: nature that's really irritating things.
• 34:16
  Speaker 2: So, Karen Stark, how does the obsessive hand washing fit
• 34:20
  Speaker 2: in with the mommy complex?
• 34:22
  Speaker 6: Got He's got a lot of problems, Matthew. These are
• 34:25
  Speaker 6: all psychologtical issues. He's obsessive composent, that's anxiety. So he
• 34:31
  Speaker 6: spends his time not socially but washing his hands repeatedly
• 34:36
  Speaker 6: doing things like cleaning the shoes that we saw, and
• 34:41
  Speaker 6: his obsession with his mom. As you think about it,
• 34:45
  Speaker 6: it's very eerie because you do not find that when
• 34:49
  Speaker 6: someone is older. So he's not having any kind of
• 34:54
  Speaker 6: a social life. He's isolated, he wants to be isolated,
• 34:58
  Speaker 6: and it's all about his action to his parents. Actually,
• 35:02
  Speaker 6: I'm surprised that he went off to school because he
• 35:06
  Speaker 6: can't connect with other people.
• 35:07
  Speaker 12: Returning to his apartment after killing four people, Ryan Coberger
• 35:11
  Speaker 12: calls his mother. He then decides to return to the
• 35:14
  Speaker 12: scene of the crimes around nine am and has two
• 35:16
  Speaker 12: conversations with his mother around this time. Forensic analysis of
• 35:20
  Speaker 12: his phone reveals Coberger had no text with friends or
• 35:23
  Speaker 12: anyone outside his family other than a single group chat.
• 35:26
  Speaker 12: He's also extremely awkward and texting with his parents, calling
• 35:29
  Speaker 12: them mother and father. He likes communicating with his mother
• 35:32
  Speaker 12: more than his father, and even texted saying why did
• 35:36
  Speaker 12: mother not respond? Why is she not answering the phone?
• 35:39
  Speaker 1: Joining us an all star panel first too.
• 35:41
  Speaker 2: Josh Coles Rude, veteran trial lawyer, joining us out of Phoenix.
• 35:46
  Speaker 2: I find all of the evidence we're learning now to
• 35:50
  Speaker 2: be very probe to specifically as it relates to clearly
• 35:56
  Speaker 2: planning the four murders far in advance.
• 35:59
  Speaker 1: There's detail, planning, a forethought. That's true.
• 36:02
  Speaker 8: However, a prosecutor can lose a case in a variety
• 36:06
  Speaker 8: of ways that have nothing to do with a defendant's guilt.
• 36:11
  Speaker 8: So in this case, the FBI used a controversial technique
• 36:17
  Speaker 8: in order to identify who Brian Koberg is or was,
• 36:22
  Speaker 8: and that's the investigative genetic genealogy technique where they would
• 36:27
  Speaker 8: take his the DNA found on the Knight sheet and
• 36:32
  Speaker 8: they would create a fake profile on a genealogy website
• 36:37
  Speaker 8: that prohibits law enforcement from doing this kind of behavior,
• 36:41
  Speaker 8: and then they would plug it in and then ask
• 36:44
  Speaker 8: the genealogy website if there are any relatives that are
• 36:49
  Speaker 8: related to the fake profile that they created. And that's
• 36:54
  Speaker 8: what they did in this case. But that doesn't just
• 36:56
  Speaker 8: stop there. They gave the information to the local police,
• 36:59
  Speaker 8: and they told them not to tell everybody.
• 37:02
  Speaker 1: They told them.
• 37:03
  Speaker 8: To keep it a secret and to pretend like they
• 37:06
  Speaker 8: had discovered this information on their own.
• 37:08
  Speaker 2: To Heather Barnhart, Heather, what else, if anything, did you
• 37:12
  Speaker 2: find on Coburger's face?
• 37:13
  Speaker 13: Oh, my gosh, we found so much, from paranoia looking
• 37:18
  Speaker 13: for federal wire tapping to even a screenshot of you,
• 37:21
  Speaker 13: Nancy and Crime Stories from YouTube cash to his device.
• 37:25
  Speaker 13: I'm sorry, repeate, yes, you it seems as if you
• 37:27
  Speaker 13: would watch Crime Stories, your show on YouTube and it
• 37:32
  Speaker 13: was cast to his phone.
• 37:33
  Speaker 2: Okay, back to Karen Stark, Oh, what if anything does
• 37:37
  Speaker 2: that mean?
• 37:37
  Speaker 1: Karen?
• 37:38
  Speaker 6: If we look at what he's interested in, what he's
• 37:41
  Speaker 6: obsessed about, when he's Christmas Eve and he's looking at
• 37:46
  Speaker 6: his phone and he's looking at serial killers, then it
• 37:48
  Speaker 6: makes perfect sense that he would be watching you and
• 37:52
  Speaker 6: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. What is a better place?
• 37:56
  Speaker 6: I can't think of any and to go and to
• 37:58
  Speaker 6: watch you look at things, look at people who are analyzing,
• 38:03
  Speaker 6: talk about killers. We talked about serial killers. So it
• 38:07
  Speaker 6: makes perfect sense to me that you would be primary
• 38:11
  Speaker 6: on his phone and he would be wanting to check
• 38:14
  Speaker 6: you out and actually admire you.
• 38:16
  Speaker 2: Heather Barnheart, what did you mean by the Was it
• 38:21
  Speaker 2: a photo or was it our program?
• 38:23
  Speaker 1: What did he have in the cash?
• 38:26
  Speaker 13: It was YouTube for Crime Story specifically, it would be
• 38:29
  Speaker 13: him watching YouTube and the phone is just smart enough
• 38:32
  Speaker 13: and it will take little snippets and snapshots as you're
• 38:36
  Speaker 13: watching something. So he was watching your show and the
• 38:39
  Speaker 13: picture of you and the title of Crime Stories was
• 38:42
  Speaker 13: saved on his device.
• 38:43
  Speaker 2: To Chris mcdonnald joining me, who has worked over three
• 38:46
  Speaker 2: hundred homicides twenty five years in Ellie Star of the
• 38:52
  Speaker 2: Interview Room on YouTube. Okay, it's typical to ISO isolate
• 39:01
  Speaker 2: onto say your prosecutor or a particular witness against you,
• 39:07
  Speaker 2: but that's really freaky.
• 39:11
  Speaker 1: Watching Crime Stories and or me to the point his
• 39:14
  Speaker 1: phone saves it.
• 39:15
  Speaker 7: Yeah, I mean, think about that in its totality here, right,
• 39:19
  Speaker 7: and as I mean, he he's like a scientist who
• 39:21
  Speaker 7: looks at bugs, you know, and of how he sees
• 39:26
  Speaker 7: people and what he does with obviously with observing you know,
• 39:32
  Speaker 7: criminal shows like yourself. Here is he's wanting to learn
• 39:36
  Speaker 7: from you. So he's seeing you a little bit different.
• 39:39
  Speaker 7: I mean, if you look at his contacts in his phone,
• 39:43
  Speaker 7: he set one of his contacts he identifies her as heir. Okay,
• 39:48
  Speaker 7: now think about that. He has he personalized everything life
• 39:53
  Speaker 7: down to a singular word and it's not even a name.
• 39:58
  Speaker 7: So not surprised me at all. You know, we may
• 40:02
  Speaker 7: not understand the why on this day, we definitely understand
• 40:07
  Speaker 7: the what okay, what's in his mind? And then what
• 40:11
  Speaker 7: he did and how he executed it.
• 40:14
  Speaker 2: All of the plotting, the planning, the scheming, the malice
• 40:19
  Speaker 2: of forethought would typically lead a prosecutor to seek the
• 40:24
  Speaker 2: death penalty when four innocent people were savagely murdered.
• 40:30
  Speaker 1: That did not happen.
• 40:32
  Speaker 2: And now when everything's all set and done, we're finding
• 40:37
  Speaker 2: out the truth. Is there any way that fads will
• 40:43
  Speaker 2: step in and seek the federal death penalty? What more
• 40:47
  Speaker 2: will we learn about Brian Koburger and who and why
• 40:53
  Speaker 2: was that video leaked? And Kim Brian Coiberger Get crime
• 40:57
  Speaker 2: stories behind Bars. Nancy Grace signing off goodbye friend,