Latest / Play Therapy Podcast: A Master-Class in Child-Centered Play Therapy / 433 | What Do You Say When a Child Asks If You Actually Like Them?

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433 | What Do You Say When a Child Asks If You Actually Like Them? · Play Therapy Podcast: A Master-Class in Child-Centered Play Therapy

• 0:00
  You're listening to the Play Therapy Podcast with Dr.
• 0:03
  Brenna Hicks,
• 0:04
  your source for centered and focused play therapy coaching.
• 0:08
  Hi,
• 0:08
  I'm Dr.
• 0:09
  Brenna Hicks,
• 0:09
  The Kid Counselor.
• 0:11
  This is the Play Therapy Podcast where you get
• 0:13
  a master class in child-centered play therapy
• 0:15
  and practical support and application for your
• 0:17
  work with children and their families.
• 0:20
  Today's episode,
• 0:21
  we are going to talk about
• 0:24
  A kid who continually says in the playroom
• 0:28
  that
• 0:29
  the therapist does not want to be with them.
• 0:31
  And
• 0:32
  if you've been doing this any length of time,
• 0:33
  you will have some version of this conversation.
• 0:36
  So,
• 0:36
  I'm actually really excited about this,
• 0:38
  Dovi.
• 0:38
  Thank you for the
• 0:39
  email.
• 0:40
  Before we dive in,
• 0:41
  y'all,
• 0:41
  there's so much going on in,
• 0:43
  in The Hicks Group world,
• 0:44
  let me tell you.
• 0:47
  I,
• 0:47
  I'll give like a very fast cliff's notes and then
• 0:49
  I'm gonna direct you to playtherapynow.com because
• 0:52
  that's where all of this will live.
• 0:54
  So,
• 0:55
  playtherapynow.com,
• 0:56
  the one-stop shop for all things related to The Kid Counselor and The Hicks Group.
• 1:01
  But
• 1:02
  honestly,
• 1:02
  y'all need to be signed up for my newsletter too.
• 1:05
  So you can do that on playtherapynow.com and
• 1:07
  that will be my main channel of communication.
• 1:10
  And I know there's people that like have one but not the other.
• 1:12
  So,
• 1:12
  like,
• 1:13
  you listen to podcasts,
• 1:14
  but you're not a newsletter person,
• 1:15
  you're a newsletter person,
• 1:16
  but you
• 1:16
  aren't part of the Collective,
• 1:17
  whatever.
• 1:18
  So,
• 1:18
  all these different camps of connection.
• 1:22
  I'm trying to make sure that everyone is unified and playtherapynow.com is
• 1:26
  where you'll go and the newsletter is gonna be the way that I communicate.
• 1:29
  So,
• 1:30
  make sure you do that.
• 1:31
  But let me hit some highlights.
• 1:33
  As y'all know,
• 1:33
  we just went to Indiana.
• 1:35
  We are duplicating that exact same conference
• 1:38
  content.
• 1:39
  In New Jersey and that is going to be the middle of October,
• 1:42
  which means you have like a month and a half.
• 1:45
  So if you have been thinking about coming to a live event with me,
• 1:48
  if you've been thinking about getting deeper CCPT coaching,
• 1:52
  if you have been thinking about
• 1:54
  getting CEs.
• 1:56
  New Jersey is going to be your next opportunity
• 1:58
  and we still have early bird pricing going.
• 2:01
  Y'all,
• 2:01
  the Indiana event,
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  I've already mentioned it,
• 2:03
  but it was so
• 2:05
  full and rich of
• 2:07
  connection and community,
• 2:08
  and I mean you really feel like you're around your people and it was just
• 2:13
  such an incredible time to be together and do CCPT for a weekend,
• 2:17
  so.
• 2:17
  I would love to have you and you might as well save money and do the early bird stuff.
• 2:21
  So make sure that you check that out.
• 2:23
  You can again,
• 2:24
  playtherapynow.com is where you can find out about that.
• 2:27
  My husband just released a book.
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  I know.
• 2:32
  He's not the author of the family,
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  but he is now.
• 2:35
  So,
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  I'm ready to launch my 3rd book,
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  by the way.
• 2:37
  Uh,
• 2:37
  details to follow on that.
• 2:38
  We're like actually
• 2:40
  getting proof copies of my 3rd book that's gonna be launching soon.
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  So,
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  we'll,
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  we'll update you as that becomes available,
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  but seriously,
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  my husband just published a book
• 2:50
  called Happily Ever Asperger,
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  and I will talk more about this in a later episode,
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  but I just wanna let you all know.
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  If you are working with children and their families on the spectrum,
• 2:59
  specifically very high functioning
• 3:02
  neurodivergent children,
• 3:04
  this is a window into
• 3:07
  the mind and the way of thinking and the neurodivergence
• 3:11
  in a child with Asperger's slash high functioning autism.
• 3:14
  I know technically they've done away with that diagnosis,
• 3:17
  but
• 3:17
  it's
• 3:18
  very relevant because it is distinct and different from
• 3:22
  other types of autism.
• 3:23
  So,
• 3:24
  It is
• 3:25
  a really helpful book for parents.
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  It is a helpful book for us as therapists because I think sometimes we even struggle
• 3:31
  to relate to children on the spectrum from a neurotypical standpoint.
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  So,
• 3:37
  you and or your parents,
• 3:39
  if you would like a little peek into the
• 3:42
  brain of a high functioning child with autism.
• 3:45
  Happily Ever Asperger is the title of it.
• 3:47
  A huge nod to my dad because
• 3:49
  he made a pun and that
• 3:51
  titled the book.
• 3:52
  So,
• 3:53
  Happily Ever Asperger,
• 3:54
  it is.
• 3:55
  It is on Amazon.
• 3:56
  If you want to order it,
• 3:57
  if you wanna talk to us or ask us questions,
• 4:00
  please reach out
• 4:01
  and Eric and I are happy to communicate about the book,
• 4:04
  but
• 4:04
  I'm very,
• 4:05
  very proud of that book.
• 4:06
  It is so helpful.
• 4:08
  Several people have read it and talked about how
• 4:10
  much insight and perspective it gave them.
• 4:13
  So that's been really exciting.
• 4:15
  And then finally,
• 4:17
  if you all have been sitting around thinking about coaching,
• 4:20
  I've been harping on coaching lately and I try to keep the podcast very
• 4:24
  teaching and,
• 4:25
  and valuable in content that I put out.
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  But y'all,
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  I've just been bombarded lately with people
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  asking questions and feeling confused and,
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  and doubting and not understanding and what should I do and how does this work?
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  And I have no idea if I'm on track and
• 4:41
  Please do not struggle
• 4:42
  without putting yourself in a position where you have
• 4:44
  a mentor to help you know what to do.
• 4:47
  If you have confidence and competence,
• 4:50
  you will be effective at child-centered play therapy.
• 4:53
  So if you've been wondering what the next step is,
• 4:55
  it might be coaching.
• 4:55
  I have a Play Therapy Pro group starting.
• 4:57
  I have a Six-Figure group starting.
• 4:59
  One is for private practice business and then one is just clinical.
• 5:03
  If you're kind of on the fence and you don't really know what your next step is,
• 5:06
  please again reach out.
• 5:07
  Go to playtherapynow.com.
• 5:08
  There's all kinds of stuff about it on there too.
• 5:11
  I don't want y'all to feel like you're out there by yourselves,
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  floundering in the sea and you just have no life rafts around you.
• 5:20
  There are all kinds of life rafts.
• 5:21
  You just have to find the right connections.
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  So,
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  please don't feel like this is too hard to do on your own.
• 5:28
  It is too hard to do on your own,
• 5:30
  but you don't have to do it alone.
• 5:31
  So,
• 5:32
  make sure that you're putting yourself in touch
• 5:34
  with people that can support and help you.
• 5:36
  And if coaching might be one of those steps,
• 5:38
  I've got a group starting real soon for PT Pro and another one starting in a few weeks
• 5:42
  for Six-Figure.
• 5:44
  So,
• 5:44
  let me know if I can help you.
• 5:45
  That's why I coach.
• 5:47
  And that's what this is all about.
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  It's bringing together CCPTs from all over the world
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  so that we can support and grow together.
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  That's the vision.
• 5:55
  So,
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  That those are my housekeeping updates for now.
• 5:59
  More to come,
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  I'm sure,
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  but
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  all right,
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  let me read you parts of Dovi's email and then we will dive in together.
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  I'm working with an 11 year old boy who keeps making remarks to the effect
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  that I surely don't want to spend time with him.
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  I'd rather be doing something else.
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  I'm only in it for the money.
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  My compliments are meaningless because I probably give them to all of my clients,
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  etc.
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  He's a smart kid and can carry a rational conversation,
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  and I think would also get especially annoyed
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  if I did tracking or reflecting for everything
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  without responding directly to the content.
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  How would you deal with this from a CCPT perspective?
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  All right.
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  I'm excited about this because
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  this is
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  a very common dilemma.
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  So let's start with
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  the comments.
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  We know that kids are not verbal
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  nor rational,
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  don't have abstract reasoning.
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  Not cognitively wired.
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  So if an 11 year old
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  is saying something,
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  We need to note that it's important.
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  Actually,
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  anytime any age child says something,
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  we know that it's important,
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  but we recognize that like 13 and up,
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  they're going to naturally be more conversational.
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  They're going to naturally be more verbal.
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  12 and under,
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  they're not.
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  So when a child says something.
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  There is substance there.
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  There is significance.
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  A child doesn't bring something up verbally
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  when they can play it out
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  unless they absolutely feel like it's necessary.
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  So when you get comments like that,
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  you don't want to spend time with me,
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  you probably would rather be doing something else.
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  You're just in this for the money.
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  You don't actually mean your compliments because you
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  give them to all of your clients.
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  OK,
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  we recognize
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  those sentences as charged
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  and loaded,
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  and there's more to the story.
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  Let's be very clear.
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  I've been talking about this a lot lately to y'all.
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  My whole life goes in waves.
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  I'm just,
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  I'm just riding one wave after another of the consistency of what comes into
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  my world.
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  So right now what's been coming into my world
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  is
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  the focus on.
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  There's always more.
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  Than what is
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  at first glance
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  evident
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  in a play session.
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  In other words,
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  when a kid says something like that,
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  there's more,
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  and you want to know what the more almost always is,
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  like 95% of the time,
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  the more is their junk.
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  So Dovi,
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  when this kid is saying this to you,
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  you don't want to spend time with me.
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  Let's
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  unpack that.
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  Why would a child say that
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  when it's their junk?
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  It's very easy to
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  see low self-esteem,
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  very easy to see
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  lack of identity,
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  low self-concept,
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  low self-worth,
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  probably ideal versus actual.
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  I ideally,
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  I want you to
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  want to spend time with me,
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  but actually,
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  you might not.
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  So,
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  all kinds of wrestling,
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  you did not say how many sessions you've had.
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  This might be early on in the process.
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  In fact,
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  my gut tells me it probably is early on in the process.
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  Why?
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  Because that kind of statement can also be the junk related to relational
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  connection.
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  If this kid barely knows you.
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  And is trying to build connection and relationship with you.
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  They're going to question.
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  Is this real?
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  Is this relationship valid?
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  Does this person actually care about me?
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  Those are all questions that we naturally process when we meet someone and
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  determine if we want to have any kind of relationship with them.
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  So that also aligns to the junk and the why.
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  I want to believe this is true,
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  but can I actually,
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  I want to trust you,
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  but can I actually?
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  I want to think that you actually like me,
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  but I don't really think that I'm that likable,
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  so can those things coexist?
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  So these kinds of statements,
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  while we can get caught up in
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  answering them or not answering them or trying to avoid
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  what the question,
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  uh,
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  I mean,
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  there's all kinds of CCPT oh,
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  you're wondering if I'd rather spend time with someone else or,
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  oh,
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  you think that I give these
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  compliments to everybody.
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  We can do the dance
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  of the CCPT skills
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  of not answering questions and reflecting content and,
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  you know,
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  acknowledging what's going on,
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  narrative summary,
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  all that.
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  But
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  at the core of what this is,
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  it's the kid's junk.
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  So it's actually more helpful for us to identify it for what it is,
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  recognize it as the work that the child needs to do.
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  And then rest and trust the process.
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  Because Joy,
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  your response to that,
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  so the kid says,
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  I know you'd rather be doing something else than,
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  than being here with me.
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  Oh,
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  you think that I'd rather be somewhere else.
• 10:46
  OK,
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  we're gonna reflect the content.
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  And then
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  statement of fact.
• 10:53
  But I'm here playing with you.
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  If you want to
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  acknowledge your own experience,
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  oh,
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  you think that I'd rather be somewhere else,
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  but I'd actually rather be right here.
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  So,
• 11:08
  we couple what the content is with statement of fact.
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  We're not trying to dissuade the child from thinking or feeling that.
• 11:14
  We're not trying to
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  argue.
• 11:16
  We're not trying to have any kind of confrontation
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  about it because we don't believe that it's true.
• 11:21
  We reflect content and then we make a statement of fact.
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  As far as
• 11:27
  you think this child can carry on a rational conversation.
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  Unlikely
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  The child's 11
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  And
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  just because the child presents as verbal,
• 11:38
  just because the child presents as articulate,
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  just because the child presents as articulate,
• 11:41
  just because the child presents as rational,
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  He's 11,
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  so
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  developmentally
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  it is
• 11:49
  cognitively impossible for him to have abstract reasoning yet.
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  So
• 11:54
  I doubt that he's carrying on a rational conversation,
• 11:57
  although it probably presents like it,
• 12:00
  which is actually probably maladaptive coping.
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  So here's another layer
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  we see his junk in the comments that he's making
• 12:07
  now.
• 12:07
  We see his junk in the fact that he's presenting
• 12:10
  as so much more mature
• 12:12
  and logical and rational than he actually is even capable of being.
• 12:16
  Also,
• 12:17
  maladaptive coping,
• 12:19
  also probably faking good,
• 12:21
  also probably presenting differently to not be vulnerable.
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  OK,
• 12:26
  so there's all kinds of junk there too.
• 12:29
  And then Dovey,
• 12:30
  your response,
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  I think that he would get annoyed if I tracked
• 12:33
  and reflected everything without responding directly to the content.
• 12:36
  I agree.
• 12:37
  A child that's going to argue with you and confront
• 12:40
  and
• 12:41
  have some pessimism or
• 12:43
  some lack of trust in the process.
• 12:47
  Absolutely.
• 12:48
  There's going to be a desire to have an actual conversation.
• 12:51
  I mean,
• 12:52
  let's quote D Ray for a second.
• 12:54
  Don't be weird in the playroom.
• 12:57
  So it is weird
• 12:58
  for a kid to say,
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  I know you don't want to spend time with me.
• 13:03
  Oh,
• 13:04
  you don't
• 13:05
  think that I want to spend time with you.
• 13:08
  Yeah,
• 13:08
  you don't,
• 13:08
  do you?
• 13:09
  Oh,
• 13:10
  you're wondering.
• 13:11
  Yeah,
• 13:12
  well,
• 13:12
  why aren't you answering my question?
• 13:13
  You're really curious.
• 13:15
  Yeah,
• 13:15
  and see,
• 13:16
  this is just proving it because you won't answer,
• 13:17
  oh,
• 13:18
  you think that you're proving that I don't wanna spend.
• 13:20
  I mean,
• 13:20
  that's weird.
• 13:21
  That is a weird conversation.
• 13:24
  So
• 13:25
  there's absolutely a component of finding the balance
• 13:29
  between being adherent to the model,
• 13:31
  but also recognizing
• 13:33
  that kids are often unsatisfied
• 13:36
  when we just don't give them any kind of response to what they're saying.
• 13:42
  So often if a kid
• 13:44
  is asking questions or wanting to have conversation,
• 13:48
  we respond appropriately.
• 13:50
  We don't bogart the conversation.
• 13:52
  We don't take over.
• 13:53
  We don't insert content.
• 13:55
  We don't make it about what we think or feel.
• 13:58
  We're very much still allowing the child to lead,
• 14:01
  but if a child asks a direct question,
• 14:03
  it's important to figure out where is it coming from.
• 14:06
  Is it rooted in the child's junk?
• 14:08
  That's totally different than if it's
• 14:10
  relational.
• 14:12
  For example,
• 14:13
  kid says,
• 14:15
  Why do you even
• 14:16
  play with me?
• 14:18
  It's a valid question.
• 14:20
  Why do you play with me?
• 14:23
  We have a couple of options.
• 14:25
  We can say,
• 14:26
  oh,
• 14:27
  you're wondering why I play with you.
• 14:29
  But
• 14:30
  I love to play with kids.
• 14:33
  OK.
• 14:34
  Reflection of content,
• 14:36
  fact,
• 14:37
  statement.
• 14:40
  The other option is
• 14:41
  reflect content
• 14:43
  and see if that satisfies the child.
• 14:46
  Oh,
• 14:46
  you're wondering why I play with kids.
• 14:49
  Some kids are not going to push anymore.
• 14:51
  This kid 100% will,
• 14:53
  but some kids won't.
• 14:55
  So sometimes that's enough.
• 14:57
  Another option is we realize that it's the child's junk.
• 15:00
  He's not actually asking why you play with kids.
• 15:03
  He's saying,
• 15:03
  do you actually enjoy being here with me?
• 15:05
  Is there anything redeeming about me?
• 15:07
  Because I don't really think so.
• 15:09
  And I don't think anyone wants to spend time with me.
• 15:11
  So the fact that you act like you want to spend time with me,
• 15:13
  I think this is crazy,
• 15:14
  and I think this is all made up and fake
• 15:16
  because this is my own junk that I'm carrying around.
• 15:20
  Ah,
• 15:20
  well,
• 15:20
  now we understand the motivation is much deeper.
• 15:24
  So then we're going to change our response a little bit because we,
• 15:26
  we recognize that this is the child's work.
• 15:30
  Oh
• 15:32
  You wonder
• 15:33
  why I play with you.
• 15:35
  But I enjoy when you come and play with me.
• 15:40
  I like spending time with you.
• 15:47
  Those are very powerful statements of truth
• 15:50
  to a child.
• 15:51
  We're not helping them to.
• 15:54
  Change their opinion,
• 15:56
  they're still going to think it's weird.
• 15:59
  But it's also their junk.
• 16:01
  And the beauty of this is because this happens all the time.
• 16:04
  This is not an outlier kind of scenario.
• 16:06
  Kids are going to say this all the time.
• 16:08
  I had a kid,
• 16:10
  5 year old twin,
• 16:11
  the girl,
• 16:12
  it was fraternal twins.
• 16:13
  I had the girl in my playroom.
• 16:15
  I'm in on my stool,
• 16:17
  she's on the floor right in front of me,
• 16:18
  and she's playing with stuff and she just kind of looks up out of the blue
• 16:21
  and says,
• 16:23
  Is this like your job?
• 16:26
  And I said,
• 16:27
  oh,
• 16:27
  you're curious if this is what I do for my job.
• 16:30
  And she's like,
• 16:30
  yeah,
• 16:30
  like I mean,
• 16:31
  do you like play with kids for a job?
• 16:34
  And I was like,
• 16:34
  oh man,
• 16:35
  you're really curious if this is actually my job.
• 16:37
  I play with kids all day long.
• 16:40
  Notice that I gave a statement of fact without answering the question.
• 16:42
  I didn't say whether it was my job or not.
• 16:45
  I just said I play with kids all day long.
• 16:48
  And then she kind of looks down for a second and then looks back up and says,
• 16:51
  Oh,
• 16:51
  I feel so bad for you.
• 16:54
  And
• 16:55
  I did not expect that response.
• 16:56
  And so I actually laughed like before I could even
• 17:00
  register what she said.
• 17:01
  It just was an organic laugh.
• 17:02
  So I kind of went
• 17:04
  and she says,
• 17:05
  you just have to sit and watch kids play.
• 17:08
  That's so boring.
• 17:11
  Now,
• 17:12
  notice that she said I feel so bad for you and
• 17:14
  it was actually like she thought I must hate it.
• 17:18
  So the accusation wasn't that I was fake or that I was in it for the money or whatever.
• 17:22
  She actually had empathy for me.
• 17:23
  Like,
• 17:24
  what an awful reality that you must have that you just have to sit and watch kids.
• 17:28
  It's so boring for you.
• 17:30
  And I'm sitting in my head going,
• 17:31
  Sweetie,
• 17:31
  you have no idea.
• 17:32
  This is the best job in the world.
• 17:34
  But
• 17:34
  notice that I just said,
• 17:36
  I play with kids all day.
• 17:37
  That was enough of an answer
• 17:39
  without actually answering the question.
• 17:41
  Then it got to what she wanted to say,
• 17:43
  which was essentially,
• 17:45
  Man,
• 17:45
  sucks for you.
• 17:48
  And then I just said,
• 17:49
  oh,
• 17:49
  you think it would be so boring to just watch kids play every day,
• 17:53
  and then she moved on.
• 17:56
  So we engage enough
• 17:58
  is kind of the moral of this.
• 17:59
  We engage enough.
• 18:00
  We don't take over.
• 18:02
  We don't make the content ours.
• 18:05
  We don't lead,
• 18:06
  we don't push.
• 18:07
  We just follow where the child is.
• 18:09
  We give enough information so that it doesn't feel awkward to the child,
• 18:13
  but
• 18:14
  the caveat to that statement is
• 18:16
  we do not cave and share information just to rescue the kid from their feelings.
• 18:21
  So if the kid is demanding an answer,
• 18:24
  I mean,
• 18:25
  will not give in,
• 18:27
  will not let up,
• 18:28
  you have to tell me,
• 18:30
  insistent demand,
• 18:31
  that's their junk,
• 18:33
  you're never gonna answer that question.
• 18:37
  Because we have to recognize what is the root
• 18:41
  of what's going on for the child.
• 18:42
  And in this case,
• 18:43
  it's very,
• 18:44
  very low self-esteem,
• 18:45
  very low self-worth.
• 18:47
  So
• 18:48
  that's going to be
• 18:49
  the lens through which we interact and we use our skills.
• 18:54
  We can really highlight encouragement and esteem
• 18:56
  building and choice giving with this child
• 18:58
  because we recognize this 11 year old boy really does not think highly of himself.
• 19:03
  So we can use skills in child-centered play therapy that will help build those
• 19:08
  concepts for that little boy.
• 19:10
  So Dovi,
• 19:11
  thank you so much for the email.
• 19:12
  I hope that that was helpful to all of you,
• 19:14
  and I hope that you will go to playtherapynow.com and
• 19:16
  check out all the stuff that I mentioned at the beginning.
• 19:18
  I love y'all.
• 19:19
  We'll talk again soon.
• 19:20
  Bye.
• 19:21
  Thank you for listening to the Play Therapy Podcast with Dr.
• 19:24
  Brenna Hicks.
• 19:25
  For more episodes and resources,
• 19:27
  please go to www.playtherapypodcast.com.