Latest / Crime Stories with Nancy Grace / Did daughter murder mom at 5-star resort? Then stuff mom in bloody baggage? Bizarre twist!

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Did daughter murder mom at 5-star resort? Then stuff mom in bloody baggage? Bizarre twist! · Crime Stories with Nancy Grace

0:07
Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace on Serious x M Triumph
0:11
Speaker 1: Channel one two. I made it up in my heart,
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Speaker 1: in my mind, my soul, and my blood and the
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Speaker 1: oxygen running through my body, but I wanted to kill
0:30
Speaker 1: my mother. Her mother loved her apparently more than anything.
0:43
Speaker 1: Her mother, highly educated, a matriarch, and social standing in
0:49
Speaker 1: her community. Somehow ends up dead, not just dead, but
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Speaker 1: butchered and folded up and stuffed in a suitcase. How
1:07
Speaker 1: did that happen? I'm Nancy Grays, this is Crime Stories.
1:11
Speaker 1: Thank you for being with us. We're talking about none
1:14
Speaker 1: other than infamous Heather Mac. Let's start at the beginning
1:20
Speaker 1: with me, Paul Chambers, Crime Stories investigative reporter Karen Stark,
1:25
Speaker 1: renowned New York psychologist and joining me as the director
1:30
Speaker 1: of the Cold Case Research Institute Cheryl McCullum. Paul, I
1:35
Speaker 1: want to start with not necessarily how mommy ends up dead,
1:41
Speaker 1: folded over into a suitcase, but the upbringing of Heather Mac.
1:48
Speaker 1: What do we know about her upbringing? The daughter Nancy.
1:53
Speaker 1: She is the daughter of she Lavonus Mack and James Mack,
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Speaker 1: who is a jazz composer. James m died in two
2:01
Speaker 1: thousand six during a family vacation in Greece. H He
2:06
Speaker 1: left his wife quite a bit of money, and their
2:11
Speaker 1: relationship since the death of her father, had been strained.
2:15
Speaker 1: H This whole trip to Bally, where the murder occurred,
2:19
Speaker 1: was so that the mother and daughter could become a
2:23
Speaker 1: little bit closer to sort of ease that strain in
2:26
Speaker 1: the relationship. And that apparently the strain and the relationship
2:33
Speaker 1: that's certainly putting perfume on the pig. Sheryl McCollum, Cold
2:37
Speaker 1: Case Institute Director, This mother gave her every single thing
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Speaker 1: you could give a child. She gave her love, she
2:48
Speaker 1: gave her the best education she possibly could, a beautiful home.
2:55
Speaker 1: In fact, the mother's friends begged her, don't take other
3:00
Speaker 1: to Bolly, don't do it, don't spend the money for
3:04
Speaker 1: a five star resort. But she wanted so desperately to
3:09
Speaker 1: be close to her daughter that she did it anyway,
3:12
Speaker 1: even though her best friends said, don't do it. Look
3:15
Speaker 1: at Heather max upbringing Sheryl, what do you see, Nancy.
3:21
Speaker 1: The most startling thing to me is the police had
3:25
Speaker 1: responded to the family home after her father's death eighty
3:32
Speaker 1: times for domestic violence and other issues. This child, Heather
3:39
Speaker 1: clearly has some emotional problems, mental problems, anger problems. Um
3:46
Speaker 1: for the police to respond eighty times to me is extraordinary.
3:50
Speaker 1: Eighty times. What do we know about the home where
3:54
Speaker 1: they lived, How Heather Matt was brought up. She had
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Speaker 1: a silver spoon, Nancy. She wanted for nothing. The home
4:02
Speaker 1: was beautiful, She had the best education. She literally has
4:07
Speaker 1: the world by the tail. But she believed that her
4:11
Speaker 1: mother had something to do with her father's death when
4:14
Speaker 1: she was tarn is what she's claimed. Wait a minute.
4:18
Speaker 1: James Mack, Chicago renowned Chicago composer, died in Athens, Greece,
4:24
Speaker 1: from a pulmonary embolism. He was there on vacation with
4:29
Speaker 1: his wife and daughter. But somehow Matt got it into
4:32
Speaker 1: her head or so. She claims that he was murdered,
4:35
Speaker 1: but that that's not what happened. He died of a
4:40
Speaker 1: pulmonary embolism. Cheryl, this is where I go back to.
4:46
Speaker 1: She clearly has some mental health issues. Oh, don't start
4:50
Speaker 1: with me. There was nothing wrong mentally with this girl.
4:53
Speaker 1: She's evil and she planned the murder for some time
4:58
Speaker 1: before she finally did the murder. Please, I mean did
5:02
Speaker 1: you actually just say, Cheryl, that she had mental issues?
5:06
Speaker 1: Did you say that, hasty? I'll tell you this child,
5:09
Speaker 1: it's that problem sause she was in the third grade, mentally, emotional, violent,
5:16
Speaker 1: She's had lots of problems. There's no questions. Well, like
5:20
Speaker 1: name them. I want to hear your so called mental
5:22
Speaker 1: problems Heather matt had. Well, when I say mental again,
5:26
Speaker 1: anybody that could get it in their head that their
5:29
Speaker 1: mother murdered their father in a hotel room in Greece
5:33
Speaker 1: when they were ten, when they're zero evidence of it.
5:37
Speaker 1: They were a lovely, happy couple. They adored each other.
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Speaker 1: There's zero evidence of it. So for her to get
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Speaker 1: this in her head and think that she needs to
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Speaker 1: avenge her father by murdering her mother in a hotel
5:52
Speaker 1: room in Vali, that is total b asked Cheryl. I
5:58
Speaker 1: can't believe she's pulled wool, even on your eyes, of
6:01
Speaker 1: all people, Karen Stark, throw me a bone for Pete's sake,
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Speaker 1: Karen Stark, This girl, Heather mac that murdered her mother
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Speaker 1: got mad at that five star resort in Bali because
6:14
Speaker 1: the mother didn't like the boyfriend. That's what it was about.
6:18
Speaker 1: She made up this b s about Oh, this was
6:22
Speaker 1: a revenge killing because mom killed dad. That's b s yes,
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Speaker 1: and it doesn't sound well. I thought that she was
6:29
Speaker 1: taking some kind of drugs when I would hear that
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Speaker 1: video the YouTube, because she sounds so out of it. Hello, Hello,
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Speaker 1: A one point three million dollar trust to fund. One
6:46
Speaker 1: point three million dollar trust fund. The parents working their
6:52
Speaker 1: fingers to the bone to make a beautiful home for
6:54
Speaker 1: this girl, the daughter of a Chicago socialite. She'll have
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Speaker 1: von We's Mac is accused of brutally murdering her own
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Speaker 1: mother during a five star Bolly vacation. The mother doing
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Speaker 1: anything to get the approval and love of her daughter,
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Speaker 1: Heather Mac, and what does she do. Murders her mother
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Speaker 1: in a violent rampage and along with her lover, stuffs
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Speaker 1: her mom into a suitcase, leaves it out in front
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Speaker 1: of the hotel, and tries to leave in a taxi.
7:35
Speaker 1: That is not a mental illness, Cheryl McCollum. That is
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Speaker 1: a minion from hell. You're absolutely right. I don't want
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Speaker 1: you to misunderstand what I'm saying. Did you say mental illness? Yes,
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Speaker 1: you did. I did not misunderstand that. Listen to what
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Speaker 1: I'm trying. Oh, dear lord, she premeditated the murder of
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Speaker 1: her mother. There's no question participated in hiding her mother's
8:02
Speaker 1: body in a suitcase and stuffing it in a taxing trunk. Absolutely.
8:08
Speaker 1: What I am telling you is there were signs when
8:11
Speaker 1: a bell notices its seeping blood go ahead. Absolutely, when
8:17
Speaker 1: she was ten, when she was eleven, when she was twelve, Nancy,
8:22
Speaker 1: what on earth would have you called the police? Oh,
8:27
Speaker 1: your ten year old twins? How out of control did
8:31
Speaker 1: this girl have to be at such a young age.
8:35
Speaker 1: I'm just telling you there were flags, there were issues.
8:40
Speaker 1: Her mom's friends knew it. I guarantee you this child's
8:44
Speaker 1: teachers knew it. She has had problems for over half
8:48
Speaker 1: of her problems does not equal mental illness. And may
8:53
Speaker 1: I remind you, Cheryl McCollum, courtroom veteran, why am I
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Speaker 1: having to preach to the choir? Means that you're absolutely right,
9:02
Speaker 1: But you're just saying that and you're gritting your teeth
9:05
Speaker 1: because you she's a cold blooded killer. I'm just saying
9:09
Speaker 1: there's a history that people have ignored. She is an absolute,
9:15
Speaker 1: cold bloody killer. She manipulated this boyfriend that got a pregnant.
9:20
Speaker 1: She probably manipulated her mother. She thought she was gonna
9:24
Speaker 1: be able to get away with it by first claiming
9:26
Speaker 1: a gang attack them, then claiming the boyfriend did it
9:30
Speaker 1: while she hit the bathroom. Then can even know I
9:33
Speaker 1: did it myself. Don't hate him, no question about it.
9:37
Speaker 1: She is absolutely where she needs to be, which is present.
9:40
Speaker 1: Have you ever, Sean McCollum, Can I just ask you
9:43
Speaker 1: that I have not? Nancy, Okay, I advise that you
9:47
Speaker 1: go walk through the lobby because when you go through
9:51
Speaker 1: the lobby of a Saint Regis, it smells like some
9:54
Speaker 1: kind of exotic fruit. It smells like you have just
9:58
Speaker 1: died and gone to heaven. Um they were staying and
10:02
Speaker 1: I've only been through the lobby of one Okay, believe me.
10:06
Speaker 1: I was not staying there. Um, somebody else was, and
10:10
Speaker 1: I was going to pick them up and give them
10:12
Speaker 1: a ride down to CNN H O M. And But
10:15
Speaker 1: I still to this day remember that it smelled like
10:19
Speaker 1: some kind of fruit wafting through the air. That is
10:25
Speaker 1: where the mom put up her murderous daughter at the St.
10:29
Speaker 1: Regis resort. They were staying there in Bali, and the
10:33
Speaker 1: state says the lover colluding with the daughter Heather Mac
10:39
Speaker 1: intentionally brings a metal fruit bowl back to the room
10:44
Speaker 1: where Mac and her mom were staying. That he then
10:49
Speaker 1: uses the bowl to beat the mom over the head
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Speaker 1: while Mac stands by cheering. And then Heather Mac folds
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Speaker 1: up her mom's body and stuffs it into a suitcase
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Speaker 1: and sits on the suitcase so the boyfriend can close it.
11:14
Speaker 1: Cheryl McCollum, is that what you mean by mental problems?
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Speaker 1: Sitting on your mom's dead bodies so you can zip
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Speaker 1: it into a suitcase. Yeah, she just she's evil. Karen start,
11:32
Speaker 1: help me, please do something with Cheryl McCollum. But you're
11:35
Speaker 1: describing his psychopathic behavior, right. We're talking about someone who
11:40
Speaker 1: is a murderer and has that kind of mentality, and
11:43
Speaker 1: it does emerge when they're young. There's a lot of
11:47
Speaker 1: oppositional behavior where they're getting in trouble all the time,
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Speaker 1: and she really fits that profile and it started at
11:57
Speaker 1: a very young age. I think that's what Cheryl is
12:00
Speaker 1: trying to say. Well, I agree with her on that
12:04
Speaker 1: that her outbursts and anger towards her mother started at
12:08
Speaker 1: a very young age. The Chicago woman accused of killing
12:13
Speaker 1: her mother and helping her lover stuff, mommy's body in
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Speaker 1: a suitcase, and an exclusive Bolly resort claims. Quote, I
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Speaker 1: love my mom and I'm innocent. I'm innocent, Cheryl. She
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Speaker 1: said she's innocent. Is that more of the so called
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Speaker 1: mental illness that you're referring to. Yes, in a way,
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Speaker 1: because oh come on, I'm having a field day. Don't
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Speaker 1: reel in it for me, Cheryl. Are part of her manipulation,
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Speaker 1: her now trying to tell people, of course I love
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Speaker 1: my mother, I missed my mother, her showing pictures of
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Speaker 1: herself on social media with her baby in prison. It's
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Speaker 1: all part of this six twisted life that I'm telling
13:04
Speaker 1: you started. I guarantee you by the time she was
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Speaker 1: ten or eleven, there was something so bad wrong. She
13:13
Speaker 1: couldn't conform, she couldn't adapt, she couldn't deal with things
13:18
Speaker 1: like another ten or eleven or twelve year old, and
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Speaker 1: it morphed into what you're seeing right now, an adult
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Speaker 1: that cannot do it either. Okay, I want to tell
13:26
Speaker 1: you a story. Cheryl McCollum, Paul Chambers. Please don't think
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Speaker 1: I forgot about you. I've just been enjoying fighting with
13:32
Speaker 1: Cheryl mccollumb. I never get to argue with her because
13:34
Speaker 1: he normally agree. So, uh, I feel like I'm at
13:39
Speaker 1: a buffet. Paul Chambers with me Crime Stories, investigative reporter
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Speaker 1: Care and Start. Renowned New York psychologists and the director
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Speaker 1: of the Cold Case Research Institute Ryl McCollum. You know um.
13:51
Speaker 1: The body of sixty two year old Sheila Wise Mac
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Speaker 1: was found stuffed inside of a suitcase. Now. According to
14:03
Speaker 1: the Chicago Sun Times, she and her late husband had
14:07
Speaker 1: just received a settlement in a lawsuit something to do
14:13
Speaker 1: with Royal Caribbean Cruises for eight hundred thousand dollars and
14:19
Speaker 1: as if they needed the money, they were already extremely wealthy,
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Speaker 1: but Heather Mac was in line to get a multi
14:29
Speaker 1: million dollar estate. Does nobody see that as motive beside me?
14:36
Speaker 1: Paul Chambers, Well, there's some interesting things coming out of
14:41
Speaker 1: this YouTube. Interviewed Nancy. She actually risked doing a more
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Speaker 1: prison time because of her statements made during this video.
14:51
Speaker 1: The Indonesian prosecutors are keenly interested in her comments. You see,
14:57
Speaker 1: she was convicted and received a ten years cent it's
15:00
Speaker 1: for being an accessory, and her boyfriend Schaeffer received eighteen
15:05
Speaker 1: years for actually doing the deed. Now that Heather Max
15:09
Speaker 1: says that she actually committed the murder and that she
15:12
Speaker 1: got her boyfriend involved after the fact. Actually the prosecutors
15:19
Speaker 1: say maybe they can get her more prison time. Now, Wow, wow, wow, wow,
15:23
Speaker 1: her story is changing. Paul Chambers, you are absolutely correct.
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Speaker 1: Take a listen to Heather Max speaking. It's posted on
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Speaker 1: YouTube and we managed to call it out with me
15:36
Speaker 1: Karen Stark, psychologist, Cheryl McCollum, director of the Cold Case
15:41
Speaker 1: Research Institute, and Cheryl Um. I'm still trying to take
15:47
Speaker 1: in the fact that you said she had mental illness
15:49
Speaker 1: issues as opposed to being just outright evil angry outbursts
15:53
Speaker 1: at age starting in age ten do not mental illness
15:56
Speaker 1: make and remind me. I want to tell you a
15:58
Speaker 1: story about a child that went to school with the twins,
16:03
Speaker 1: but I'll get back to that in a moment, because
16:05
Speaker 1: i want to hear Heather matt and her own words
16:09
Speaker 1: straight from the devil's mouth. Listen. Okay, So this is
16:16
Speaker 1: a video that I need to make a lot of
16:23
Speaker 1: the times since I've been a kid, I've heard the
16:27
Speaker 1: truth sets you free, the truth sets you free, and
16:31
Speaker 1: I never understood. But I'm Heather mac and I want
16:41
Speaker 1: to be set free. I don't want to live in
16:45
Speaker 1: a lie anymore. When I was ten, my mother killed
16:53
Speaker 1: my father in a hotel in Athens, Greece, m two
17:02
Speaker 1: weeks before I came to Bali. I found out that
17:07
Speaker 1: she killed my father, and I made it up in
17:11
Speaker 1: my heart, in my mind, my soul, in my blood,
17:17
Speaker 1: and the oxygen running through my body. But I wanted
17:23
Speaker 1: to kill my mother Before I go back to Cheryl
17:27
Speaker 1: Kieren and Paul take a listen to Heather mat and
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Speaker 1: her own words. I wanted to kill my mother. First,
17:35
Speaker 1: I asked Tommy Shaffer to help me find somebody to
17:41
Speaker 1: kill my mom for fifty dollars and he said no.
17:48
Speaker 1: After that, I got this whole new savage idea in
17:53
Speaker 1: my head that I wanted to kill her in the
17:56
Speaker 1: hotel room because she had killed my father in a
18:00
Speaker 1: hotel room. The mom wanted to take her only daughter
18:05
Speaker 1: on a five star vacation. Her friends begged her not
18:11
Speaker 1: to do it because her daughter was so contemptuous of
18:16
Speaker 1: her mother, but she wanted desperately to mend their rift
18:22
Speaker 1: into bond with her daughter. Then the daughter jumps up
18:26
Speaker 1: and says she wants to bring her lover with her
18:29
Speaker 1: when the mother was opposed, she wanted time with her daughter.
18:32
Speaker 1: But in the end, well, the next thing we know,
18:35
Speaker 1: there's a headline a Chicago tourist is found dead in Indonesia,
18:42
Speaker 1: and so many people thought, well, okay, you travel abroad,
18:45
Speaker 1: you're in a high crime area. What did you think
18:48
Speaker 1: was gonna happen? Oh no, oh no, let me tell you.
18:52
Speaker 1: At the st REGI just it's not high crime. Okay.
18:55
Speaker 1: As I mentioned earlier, you smell the scent of jasmine
18:58
Speaker 1: and tanzerines waff through the air. No, that's it was
19:03
Speaker 1: not a high crime area, and the perpetrator turned out
19:06
Speaker 1: to be her own daughter. Indonesian police charging a Chicago
19:12
Speaker 1: area couple with murder after the body of Heather Max,
19:17
Speaker 1: sixty two year old mother is found literally stuffed in
19:22
Speaker 1: a suitcase on the resort island of Bali. And when
19:26
Speaker 1: I say stuffed, I mean stuffed. According to evidence, the
19:31
Speaker 1: lover tries to sit the suitcase, and Heather Max sits
19:34
Speaker 1: on her mother's dead body to make it fit. That's right.
19:40
Speaker 1: Heather Mack and her lover, Tommy Schaefer arrested after the
19:45
Speaker 1: body of Sheila von Wei Smack found inside the trunk
19:50
Speaker 1: of a taxi parked in the front of the St.
19:53
Speaker 1: Regis Bolly Resort. Wow, okay, Cheryl McCollum, I want to go.
20:02
Speaker 1: This is what confounds me when you see parents who
20:06
Speaker 1: bend over backward to raise the daughter, to give her
20:11
Speaker 1: the best education, to sacrifice to send her to the
20:15
Speaker 1: best schools and the best training, to prepare them for
20:20
Speaker 1: a future life, prepare for their life after the parents
20:23
Speaker 1: are gone and can no longer support them. They did everything.
20:28
Speaker 1: They basically lived at the top of knob Hill, which
20:32
Speaker 1: is short for snob Hill, and you know, gave her
20:36
Speaker 1: this luxurious, beautiful lifestyle that other people can only dream of,
20:42
Speaker 1: but the mom ends up stuffed in a suitcase. Cheryl
20:47
Speaker 1: Fancy again, in this case did not start in Indonesia.
20:53
Speaker 1: It started when this child was ten years old. She's
20:58
Speaker 1: basically giving you the road map. She's telling you. When
21:02
Speaker 1: it started the depth of her father, everything changed. Whatever
21:08
Speaker 1: she was able to hide or mass or they ignored,
21:12
Speaker 1: came to the surface to a point nobody could ignore
21:15
Speaker 1: it any longer. Her mother was afraid of her. Her
21:19
Speaker 1: mama would have never called the police. Eight Tom her eighties,
21:28
Speaker 1: six times. Karen start listen to this place. April thirteen,
21:34
Speaker 1: daughter locks mom Sheila in her bedroom to make her
21:38
Speaker 1: mom feel bad for having yelled at her ideal at
21:40
Speaker 1: her two. January nineteen, punched mom was closed fist on
21:46
Speaker 1: broken ankle, resulting in more hospitalization. December fourteen, Heather Matt
21:53
Speaker 1: gets angry and broke household items. January thirty, Mac pushes
21:58
Speaker 1: her mom, Sheila, who calls and breaks her arm. February two,
22:03
Speaker 1: thousand eleven, Mac arrested for domestic violence against her own mother, Sheila.
22:09
Speaker 1: April Mac arrested for biting Sheila's are multiple times over
22:14
Speaker 1: the course of three days and pushing her mother in
22:17
Speaker 1: the chest. The mom reports Max said she would quote
22:23
Speaker 1: stop leaving bruises and just hit her in the head.
22:27
Speaker 1: April pushed Sheila during an argument. June threatens mom after
22:31
Speaker 1: Mac was caught sending pornographic photos of herself on the internet.
22:42
Speaker 1: I just wanted to pause on that Mac sending pornographic
22:47
Speaker 1: photos of herself on the internet. And you all know
22:50
Speaker 1: by now it takes a lot to be determined to
22:53
Speaker 1: be pornographic. In nature, even hustler isn't deemed to be pornography,
22:58
Speaker 1: and a lot of a lot places now, Okay threatens mom.
23:03
Speaker 1: Matt quote out of control, throwing picture frames. Mac threatened Sheila,
23:08
Speaker 1: saying I will hurt you. Mac bite Sheila's left bicet.
23:13
Speaker 1: Sheila tells police the large bruise on her wrist was
23:15
Speaker 1: from Matt because she was in a rage and bit
23:18
Speaker 1: me quote from the mom uh rocky relationship. According to
23:27
Speaker 1: Oak Park Police, Sheilla called police eighty six times. Sheila
23:34
Speaker 1: the mom was struggling how to deal with it and
23:36
Speaker 1: how to help Heather, and she would talk a lot
23:40
Speaker 1: about that. Sheila never gave up hope for Heather. You know,
23:47
Speaker 1: Karen Stark, before I had the twins and Saturly it
23:50
Speaker 1: was late in life. I thought I knew all about love, right, Okay,
23:55
Speaker 1: you know that because we've discussed it many many times
23:59
Speaker 1: before and after the twins came. But I can I
24:02
Speaker 1: can tell you this. I don't know of any power
24:06
Speaker 1: on earth stronger than a mother's love. And when I
24:10
Speaker 1: read Sheila Mack quote told police she would not give
24:14
Speaker 1: up hope on Heather, it breaks my heart. Karen Stark,
24:20
Speaker 1: I can get that, Nancy, but this girl is nothing
24:22
Speaker 1: like your twins. And one of the things I keep
24:26
Speaker 1: thinking about, is that this mother loved her daughter so
24:30
Speaker 1: much that I don't know that she really understood that
24:36
Speaker 1: this girl needed to be put away. Somebody had to
24:40
Speaker 1: deal with the fact that her problems were the kind
24:45
Speaker 1: where she had note, she was violent and she had
24:49
Speaker 1: no remorse, and nothing was going to make that go away.
24:54
Speaker 1: There was nothing that could change somebody who can't feel
24:59
Speaker 1: unfortunate lee that was the case with her daughter, and
25:02
Speaker 1: she doesn't seem what does that means? Someone that can't
25:05
Speaker 1: feel what is that? Isn't there a medical term for that?
25:09
Speaker 1: Someone that cannot feel emotion. That's an antisocial personality, someone
25:14
Speaker 1: who is a psychopath. And you can't make somebody have
25:19
Speaker 1: a conscience. So you hear it, you're telling you know
25:23
Speaker 1: about how this happened over and over and over again,
25:27
Speaker 1: and the mother wouldn't give up on her, And I
25:30
Speaker 1: get that, I get that mother's love. Nevertheless, there was
25:34
Speaker 1: nothing that could be done then, nothing that the mother
25:38
Speaker 1: could do, even though she wouldn't give up on her.
25:40
Speaker 1: And the worst thing that she could have done was
25:43
Speaker 1: to decide she's going to go on a trip with
25:45
Speaker 1: the girl who has tried to harm her repeatedly, who
25:51
Speaker 1: bit her. You know, I'm looking right now, Paul Chambers,
25:57
Speaker 1: Crime Stories investigative reporter. I'm looking right now at the
26:00
Speaker 1: suitcase the mom is stuffed into and she still stuffed
26:03
Speaker 1: in there when this photos taken, and all on the
26:07
Speaker 1: outside of the suitcase is a blood. It's smeared all
26:11
Speaker 1: over at the suitcase. They had used a bedsheet actually
26:16
Speaker 1: to close the luggage. They couldn't get it completely closed,
26:21
Speaker 1: and so they tied it together. Blood was seeping out
26:25
Speaker 1: of the uh, out of the suitcase, and they had
26:30
Speaker 1: actually had to explain to the lobby staff that it
26:34
Speaker 1: was possibly some makeup that they were seeing. They noticed
26:37
Speaker 1: in the lobby that there was some red stains and
26:39
Speaker 1: they just claimed it was makeup. They took it out
26:42
Speaker 1: to the taxi stand. Uh. The Schaefer helped the staff
26:47
Speaker 1: lift the luggage into the taxis trunk because they didn't
26:53
Speaker 1: want to signal that the the luggage was unusually heavy
26:57
Speaker 1: because it had body inside. So uh, it's it's very
27:02
Speaker 1: interesting then, you know. They actually went back inside to
27:07
Speaker 1: ask for their passports and to check out of the hotel,
27:12
Speaker 1: but the staff would not allow them to because they
27:15
Speaker 1: did not own the credit card that was being used
27:19
Speaker 1: to pay for the room. So they said they wanted
27:21
Speaker 1: to actually speak to Sheila. And uh So, once they
27:26
Speaker 1: were thwarted and their passports were in the hotel safe,
27:29
Speaker 1: they couldn't even leave the island. What they did was
27:31
Speaker 1: then they uh went out and escaped across the wall
27:37
Speaker 1: of the resort compound, left the complex, tried to check
27:44
Speaker 1: into another hotel. They found a small hotel that they
27:48
Speaker 1: did check into because sea hotels require that you have
27:51
Speaker 1: a passport and that you surrender them while you're staying
27:54
Speaker 1: at the hotel. But they convinced the small hotel that
27:58
Speaker 1: they just you know, their passport was just out of source.
28:02
Speaker 1: They couldn't get it. They checked into the small hotel
28:06
Speaker 1: and about a day later they were found by police there.
28:09
Speaker 1: You know, of course, once police discovered the body because
28:12
Speaker 1: the suitcase was overflowing with blood at that point, they
28:16
Speaker 1: left the body in the suitcase in the trunk of
28:19
Speaker 1: the taxi at the hotel. This is more of what
28:21
Speaker 1: I've learned about the mother or Sheila. She joined a
28:27
Speaker 1: century old Chicago book club called the Caxton Club. She
28:31
Speaker 1: was in a book club. She had all sorts of interest.
28:34
Speaker 1: She loved Asian literature, and Wagnerian opera. She uh that
28:42
Speaker 1: was in a profile in a publication called The Caxtonian
28:45
Speaker 1: all about her, And I say this in in a
28:51
Speaker 1: good way. She was extremely interested in a variety of
28:58
Speaker 1: pursuits and highly highly educated. She fell in love with
29:06
Speaker 1: a highly regarded jazz and classical composer, James L. Matt
29:10
Speaker 1: from also from Illinois. He died at age seventy. So
29:16
Speaker 1: I'm looking at the way this child was brought up,
29:20
Speaker 1: literally with a silverspoon in her mouth, Cheryl McCullum. And
29:24
Speaker 1: not to say that there is not violence in homes
29:26
Speaker 1: like that, but I look at eighties six police reports
29:32
Speaker 1: where the police were called. Never once would the mother
29:37
Speaker 1: allow the daughter to be actually arrested. She didn't want
29:42
Speaker 1: her daughter to go to jail, right. She tried to
29:46
Speaker 1: save this child. She did not want her to have
29:49
Speaker 1: a record. She did not want her to go to jail.
29:52
Speaker 1: She did not want her life altered in a negative way.
29:56
Speaker 1: She literally believed she could of her in the being well,
30:03
Speaker 1: and Nancy, that's not possible. The mother did not make
30:07
Speaker 1: this child this way. She did not do anything to
30:12
Speaker 1: cause her to be this way. And there's no way
30:15
Speaker 1: to undo it by her. She Love von Wey Smack
30:18
Speaker 1: sixty two of the Chicago suburb Oak Park, was discovered
30:23
Speaker 1: stuffed in a suitcase in the back of a taxi
30:26
Speaker 1: at the luxury St. Regis Hotel. Suspicion quickly turned to
30:30
Speaker 1: her own daughter, Heather mac and her lover. Now the
30:35
Speaker 1: two threatened to commit suicide behind bars. That never happened.
30:42
Speaker 1: Listen to Heather Matt in her own words, we were
30:46
Speaker 1: going to Balley, so I began to plock. I began
30:51
Speaker 1: turning off Tommy's phone, taking Tommy's phone when he was asleep,
30:57
Speaker 1: starting in Chicago, taking Tommy's own, and having conversations between
31:01
Speaker 1: Tommy and myself, texting myself, having fake conversations, and then
31:07
Speaker 1: deleting them before he could see them. I did that
31:12
Speaker 1: because part of me knew that with this plan of
31:15
Speaker 1: killing my mom in a hotel, that she might I
31:22
Speaker 1: might get arrested. I didn't want to get arrested by
31:26
Speaker 1: myself in a different country. So I came to Bali
31:33
Speaker 1: and I told Tommy that he was going to come
31:36
Speaker 1: here for a vacation, call me that he was going
31:40
Speaker 1: to come to Bali for a vacation with me and
31:43
Speaker 1: my mother, and that she knew about it. In all reality,
31:47
Speaker 1: I stole her credit card and brought him a ticket
31:49
Speaker 1: without her knowing about it. I trapped him here, and
31:54
Speaker 1: that is what I regret. I don't regret killing my mother. Yeah,
32:01
Speaker 1: And as evil as that may sound, that's my reality.
32:05
Speaker 1: If somebody killed Stella, I wouldn't regret killing them either.
32:10
Speaker 1: But I regret bringing Tommy into it. I regret being selfish.
32:15
Speaker 1: I regret trapping an innocent person into this because it
32:19
Speaker 1: was my battle. It's my mother, it was my father,
32:29
Speaker 1: it's my mother, it was my father, it was my battle.
32:32
Speaker 1: I'm sorry to Tommy Shaeffer for trapping him. Came to Bolly.
32:39
Speaker 1: My mom found out I killed her myself, and then
32:45
Speaker 1: I told Tommy that if he did not help me
32:48
Speaker 1: clean the room and get rid of the body, that
32:51
Speaker 1: I would tell the police that he did it. I
32:55
Speaker 1: would pay money to get him arrested. So he helped
32:59
Speaker 1: me clean it. He ran with me in the court.
33:04
Speaker 1: The same thing happened my lawyers and I because of
33:07
Speaker 1: the fact that if I get money, if my article
33:13
Speaker 1: that I was charged with was not that I'm the
33:15
Speaker 1: one who killed her, I'm still entitled to the money
33:18
Speaker 1: and therefore I can pay the lawyers. More So, we
33:22
Speaker 1: told Tommy together, my lawyers and I that if he
33:26
Speaker 1: didn't take the blame in the court, but he would
33:30
Speaker 1: get the death penalty. So he lied in the court
33:34
Speaker 1: because of me. My motivation for doing this was myself.
33:43
Speaker 1: It's from inside of me, and it's my battle. It
33:46
Speaker 1: wasn't Tommy's. Tommy's an innocent man. And then even more
33:51
Speaker 1: innocent man is Ryan, Tommy's cousin. I don't even know
33:55
Speaker 1: how he got involved in this or why the FBI
33:58
Speaker 1: involved him, because he had a certainly nothing to do
34:01
Speaker 1: with any of it. He's innocent. I don't know if
34:04
Speaker 1: they wanted to sell a better story or what the
34:07
Speaker 1: FBI was on, But Tommy and Ryan are innocent. I'm not.
34:13
Speaker 1: You know what's amazing to Karen start New York psychologists
34:17
Speaker 1: joining us. None of Sheila's friends were shocked at all. Well,
34:24
Speaker 1: it sounds like everybody wanted her to not go on
34:28
Speaker 1: this trip. They pleaded with her. They were very worried
34:32
Speaker 1: about what was going to happen, and they were more
34:34
Speaker 1: aware of what her daughter was really like than she was.
34:40
Speaker 1: She was in denial. She kept thinking that she could
34:44
Speaker 1: find a way some kind of rappressed monk and have
34:48
Speaker 1: them connect with each other, and as Cheryl said, just
34:51
Speaker 1: love her to be a normal person. And that was
34:55
Speaker 1: never going to happen, because if you don't have a conscience,
35:00
Speaker 1: if you can't love and connect with another person, then
35:04
Speaker 1: you don't care what happens to them. You're just fueled
35:07
Speaker 1: by anger. Take a listen to Heather Max speaking in
35:11
Speaker 1: her own words, and remember this interview, which were lawyers
35:15
Speaker 1: advised against. Maybe the grounds for additional charges. But Tommy
35:20
Speaker 1: and Ryan are innocent. I'm not. And the only thing
35:25
Speaker 1: Tommy is not innocent of is hiding the body. And
35:31
Speaker 1: the only reason he did that is because of me,
35:35
Speaker 1: because it was so burning and so deep in my heart,
35:39
Speaker 1: my plan that I didn't think I involved him, and
35:45
Speaker 1: I hurt him and I heard Stella And I'm sorry,
35:49
Speaker 1: Tommy Shaeffer. I'm sorry. I love you, I really love you,
36:00
Speaker 1: and if I could go back, I would do it myself.
36:05
Speaker 1: And I'm sorry that everyone who ever knew you now
36:09
Speaker 1: thinks you're a murderer when you're not. I'm sorry you
36:13
Speaker 1: won't be able to get a job. I'm sorry everybody
36:17
Speaker 1: thinks that you're some crazy killer. This is the truth,
36:25
Speaker 1: and whoever is watching this, don't hate Tommy. He's innocent.
36:33
Speaker 1: I'm not I love you, Tommy. Paul Chambers explained to
36:38
Speaker 1: me how her own words can be used against her
36:41
Speaker 1: to possibly add charges. Well, prosecutors you know, decided to
36:49
Speaker 1: send her to prison to convict her as an accessory,
36:54
Speaker 1: and they they they successfully prosecuted her Boyfriendmy Schaeffer as
37:01
Speaker 1: the actual doer of the deed. Schaefer is serving an
37:05
Speaker 1: eighteen year prison sentence, but now in the YouTube video,
37:10
Speaker 1: Heather says that she truly loves Tommy, that he had
37:13
Speaker 1: nothing to do with the murder, but only with the
37:16
Speaker 1: clean up afterwards, and that she regrets getting him involved,
37:22
Speaker 1: luring him to Haiti by buying him the airline ticket
37:26
Speaker 1: with her mother's credit card, then secretly getting him a
37:30
Speaker 1: room at the resort, also using her mother's credit card
37:35
Speaker 1: UH and bringing him into this whole situation. She says
37:38
Speaker 1: she is solely responsible. She also says that a cousin,
37:44
Speaker 1: Ryan Bibbs, back in Illinois, who was already pleaded guilty
37:48
Speaker 1: in the United States to being UH an accessory to
37:51
Speaker 1: help plot the murder. She says that he is completely innocent,
37:55
Speaker 1: and she's even more astounded that Ryan Bibb has been
38:00
Speaker 1: brought into this whole mess. Uh So, what she's doing
38:04
Speaker 1: here is she's she's risking more time in prison because
38:09
Speaker 1: the Indonesian prosecutors are saying, hey, uh, you're taking blame
38:14
Speaker 1: for the crime, then we're gonna put you away for
38:16
Speaker 1: actually committing the murder. Uh And she would like in
38:21
Speaker 1: an ideal world, she would like for people to to
38:24
Speaker 1: know that Schaefer did not commit the crime, that she
38:29
Speaker 1: actually contrived evidence to bring him in. She says she
38:35
Speaker 1: put text she got ahold of his cell phone and
38:38
Speaker 1: started texting responses to her text to his phone that
38:44
Speaker 1: implicated him in the crime. So the evidence that prosecutors
38:47
Speaker 1: used during the trial, she said, she was totally responsible
38:51
Speaker 1: for inventing that. Uh So, anyway, she would like Schaeffer.
38:55
Speaker 1: She would like people to know that her boyfriend that
38:58
Speaker 1: she truly loved. She says, Wait a minute, wait aute
39:02
Speaker 1: truly loves. Doesn't she have a female lover behind bars?
39:05
Speaker 1: Well she may that may be the case, but but
39:08
Speaker 1: she's she's sticking up for her boyfriend. Okay, but what
39:12
Speaker 1: about the trial, Well, what about then she truly loves
39:16
Speaker 1: the boyfriend, and why didn't she say all this to
39:19
Speaker 1: prosecutors then so he wouldn't go to jail Because she's
39:22
Speaker 1: changed her story, as you pointed out earlier, Nancy, she's
39:25
Speaker 1: changed her story. Okay, this is what I do know.
39:30
Speaker 1: I don't know what's going on in her hand, but
39:33
Speaker 1: I know the coffin that carried her mother, Sheila Mack,
39:36
Speaker 1: left Bolly on a Korean Air flight to Chicago O'Hare.
39:42
Speaker 1: An autopsy revealed that the mom died of asphyxiation. She
39:47
Speaker 1: couldn't breathe. She had a broken nosebone resulting from a
39:52
Speaker 1: blunt blow. She also suffered from a broken neck. What
40:00
Speaker 1: learn is that the breaks and the mom's neck and
40:04
Speaker 1: nose extended to her upper right and left jaw, causing
40:08
Speaker 1: respiratory disorder. The mother also had extensive hand wounds. That
40:14
Speaker 1: suggests to me she was trying to fight off an attack.
40:17
Speaker 1: Cheryl McCullum. Quite possibly, Nancy. It sounds like she had
40:21
Speaker 1: her hands up like a defensive posture. This woman was
40:25
Speaker 1: beaten to death because violent depiction you could have in
40:31
Speaker 1: your mind with a bowl that had to handle on it,
40:36
Speaker 1: so you start swinging that bowl that has a handle
40:39
Speaker 1: over it as fast as you can, and you literally
40:42
Speaker 1: break somebody's nose and jaw and net. That is terrible
40:47
Speaker 1: for And again I'm going to tell you there's something
40:50
Speaker 1: mentally wrong with this girl. Well, that doesn't mean she's
40:54
Speaker 1: legally insane, Cheryl. You keep saying there's something wrong. There's
40:58
Speaker 1: something wrong with everybody that commits murder. Right, What I'm
41:02
Speaker 1: what I'm saying is it has nothing to do with
41:04
Speaker 1: whether or not she is, you know, legally insane. I
41:09
Speaker 1: am talking about somebody should have recognized this child needed
41:15
Speaker 1: institutionalized help by the time she was fourteen. That's well,
41:20
Speaker 1: she's getting it now. The institution is jail, and that's
41:24
Speaker 1: where she needs to be. When you keep saying there's
41:28
Speaker 1: something wrong with her, it makes me think that you're
41:31
Speaker 1: suggesting she has a legal insanity defense. She planned this thing,
41:35
Speaker 1: and the evidence after the murder can be taken into account.
41:39
Speaker 1: Stuffing your mom's body in the suitcase and running to
41:42
Speaker 1: the next luxury hotel with your lover does not suggest
41:46
Speaker 1: to me a mental illness rising to the level of insanity.
41:50
Speaker 1: And I want you to know one more, one more
41:52
Speaker 1: thing about the autopsy, there was blood aspiration, which means
41:58
Speaker 1: the mom was stay ending when she was beaten, and
42:02
Speaker 1: as she suffocated from lack of oxygen because of the
42:06
Speaker 1: mass influx of blood into her lungs from the broken
42:11
Speaker 1: nose bone that extended to both sides of her jaw,
42:15
Speaker 1: she drowned on her own blood. Cheryl absolutely, Nancy. The
42:24
Speaker 1: legal insanity defense means you don't know right from wrong.
42:29
Speaker 1: This girl absolutely knows what she did was wrong. She
42:32
Speaker 1: tried to cover it up months before the plane and
42:35
Speaker 1: she got rid of tech messages, she changed flight information,
42:40
Speaker 1: she got the hotel room books for the boyfriend. She
42:42
Speaker 1: brought her own accessory to the crime. She knew what
42:46
Speaker 1: she was doing wrong. They hid the body in the suitcase.
42:49
Speaker 1: They hid it in the trunk of a taxi. Then
42:51
Speaker 1: they fled and they tried to leave the island and
42:54
Speaker 1: could not. No question, She's where she needs to be,
42:58
Speaker 1: in prison. I'm just saying, you follow this road map.
43:01
Speaker 1: She should have never been out to be able to
43:03
Speaker 1: do She should have been on in g V jail.
43:06
Speaker 1: Yea at the get go the first time she hit
43:09
Speaker 1: her mother and broke a bone or bit her. Yeah,
43:13
Speaker 1: she should have gone her framework should have been straight
43:16
Speaker 1: and juvenile jail two. Karen Stark, I do not believe
43:22
Speaker 1: one word this woman says. But I want you to listen,
43:25
Speaker 1: Karen along with me, to Heather Matt in her own words,
43:29
Speaker 1: this is just spewing lies. But listen anyway, So I
43:34
Speaker 1: came to Bally and I told Tommy that he was
43:38
Speaker 1: going to come here for a vacation. Well, Tommy that
43:42
Speaker 1: he was going to come to Bali for a vacation
43:45
Speaker 1: with me and my mother, and that she knew about it.
43:48
Speaker 1: In our reality, I stole her credit card and brought
43:51
Speaker 1: him a ticket without her knowing about it. I trapped
43:54
Speaker 1: him here, and that is what I regret. I don't
44:00
Speaker 1: regret killing my mother, and as evil as that may sound,
44:05
Speaker 1: that's my reality. If somebody killed Stilla, I wouldn't regret
44:10
Speaker 1: killing them either. But I regret bringing Tommy into it.
44:15
Speaker 1: I regret being selfish. I regret trumping an innocent person
44:20
Speaker 1: into this because it was my battle. It's my mother,
44:23
Speaker 1: it was my father. Karen, start, what do you make
44:26
Speaker 1: of it? I'll tell you what's most chilling about it, Nancy,
44:29
Speaker 1: is that, if you listen, there is absolutely no remorse
44:36
Speaker 1: about her mother being killed. In a very very calm voice.
44:42
Speaker 1: She's trying to rescue her boyfriend and comes up with
44:48
Speaker 1: this ridiculous story about her mom killing her father, and
44:53
Speaker 1: you do not hear the least bit of regret. She's crying,
44:58
Speaker 1: but not for her moup. She's crying for her boyfriend.
45:02
Speaker 1: Wait wait now to see the charges are going to
45:05
Speaker 1: be altered in any way. Take one more. Listen to
45:08
Speaker 1: Heather mac Nancy. This is Heather mac speaking to Crime
45:12
Speaker 1: Watch Daily from jail. And I just just hugging her
45:20
Speaker 1: and I wouldn't want to go. And you just said,
45:23
Speaker 1: now we have to run, And I said, you were
45:24
Speaker 1: in us. I'm not leaving my mother here. I will
45:27
Speaker 1: not leave her here. They said, what do you want
45:29
Speaker 1: to do? I said, I want to bring her, he said,
45:32
Speaker 1: and what I said in a suitcase. I'm not leaving
45:34
Speaker 1: her here. I just didn't want to what you find
45:37
Speaker 1: with her. I mean, I don't know I was at
45:40
Speaker 1: that moment, but Heather says, she knows precisely where she
45:45
Speaker 1: is now most of the time, especially at night. I'm crying,
45:50
Speaker 1: especially at night. Can I ask you why you cry
45:54
Speaker 1: at not? I I missed my mother. Yeah, I missed
46:02
Speaker 1: my mother, Nancy Grace Crime Stories, signing off goodbye friend. Yeah,