Latest / Pod Save America / Has the Media Surrendered to Trump? (feat. Chuck Todd)

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Has the Media Surrendered to Trump? (feat. Chuck Todd) · Pod Save America

• 0:20
  Speaker 1: Welcome to Pod Save America, I'm Dan Pfeiffer. Politics and
• 0:22
  Speaker 1: media are inextricably entwined. The politicians who succeed are usually
• 0:26
  Speaker 1: the ones who best understand how the media is changing.
• 0:28
  Speaker 1: If you want to understand what's happening in politics and
• 0:30
  Speaker 1: where it's going, you must understand the media environment. That's
• 0:33
  Speaker 1: why I'm talking to veteran journalist Chuck Todd, the former
• 0:35
  Speaker 1: host of Meet the Press, for our Sunday show this week.
• 0:38
  Speaker 1: Chuck left NBC earlier this year to explore the greener
• 0:41
  Speaker 1: pastures of independent journalism to pursue a new model for
• 0:44
  Speaker 1: saving local news and to host his podcast, The Chuck Toddcast.
• 0:47
  Speaker 1: So he's got a foot in both camps, old media
• 0:50
  Speaker 1: and new media. Chuck is also one of the political
• 0:52
  Speaker 1: press's biggest defenders and detractors when appropriate. Chuck is a
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  Speaker 1: giant political junkie who knows everything that's happening in every
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  Speaker 1: race at every level. Today, we're going to discuss the
• 1:00
  Speaker 1: changing media environment, how the press is covering Trump, and
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  Speaker 1: whether Democrats have figured out how to communicate in this
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  Speaker 1: new era. Chuck Todd, welcome to the show.
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  Speaker 2: Dan Pfeiffer, it's good to see you. I think I
• 1:10
  Speaker 2: was one of your guests in the first month of
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  Speaker 2: your launch, if I'm not mistaken. Yes, you were. You were.
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  Speaker 1: It was a very highly listened to and quite controversial episode,
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  Speaker 1: if I remember correctly.
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  Speaker 2: I don't know. Every episode you guys do is controversial
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  Speaker 2: to somebody. The beauty of social media is if you
• 1:26
  Speaker 2: want to be controversial, somebody will help you be controversial.
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  Speaker 1: Yes, that is true. That is true. That is what
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  Speaker 1: Twitter slash X has done for us. You were the
• 1:35
  Speaker 1: host of Meet the Press. I'm going to do what
• 1:37
  Speaker 1: Chuck Todd would do. I'm going to start with the
• 1:38
  Speaker 1: news of the week here. We are recording this on
• 1:40
  Speaker 1: Donald Trump's 101st day in office. We are coming to
• 1:44
  Speaker 1: the close of a series of media retrospectives looking at
• 1:48
  Speaker 1: his 100th day. There are 100 days in the White House.
• 1:54
  Speaker 1: through this. One is that he has the lowest poll
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  Speaker 1: numbers of almost any president at this 100th day and
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  Speaker 1: is in a big political mess. And the second one
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  Speaker 1: is that he is the most consequential president at this
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  Speaker 1: mark in his presidency. What do you make of those
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  Speaker 1: two assessments?
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  Speaker 2: By the way, I love the word consequential. How often
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  Speaker 2: I now hear this word consequential.
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  Speaker 3: Okay.
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  Speaker 1: Where else are you hearing it?
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  Speaker 2: Well, because Mitch McConnell defenders won't say he was a
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  Speaker 2: great senator. They'll say he's one of the most consequential senators.
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  Speaker 2: The point is the word is such a beautiful word
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  Speaker 2: because it's a way to impart importance without necessarily saying
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  Speaker 2: they were good or bad. Well, they're consequential.
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  Speaker 3: Okay.
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  Speaker 2: Right? The point is that it really is such an
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  Speaker 2: interesting subjective word, and I kind of look at it
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  Speaker 2: as a bit of a weasel word, right? But personally,
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  Speaker 2: because I think the word... And I get it, right?
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  Speaker 2: Because he is consequential.
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  Speaker 1: Sure.
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  Speaker 3: Sure.
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  Speaker 2: And so is a wild animal in my yard consequential
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  Speaker 2: in the moment, right? That's going rabid on us, right?
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  Speaker 2: You're like, yeah, it's consequential at the moment. Anyway, I
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  Speaker 2: don't know if you get the point I'm trying to say,
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  Speaker 2: but I just.
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  Speaker 3: I do.
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  Speaker 4: I do.
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  Speaker 1: It's a way to say that he matters without saying
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  Speaker 1: that he is bad or good.
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  Speaker 2: Right. George W. Bush, I used to say, really consequential president.
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  Speaker 2: Because at the end of the day, at the time,
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  Speaker 2: you were like, well, doesn't look like Iraq's going to
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  Speaker 2: age well. We'll see.
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  Speaker 1: And it hasn't.
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  Speaker 2: And it hasn't. And in fact, the legacy has somehow
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  Speaker 2: led to the Republican Party to no longer even believe
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  Speaker 2: in half the policies they used to believe in the
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  Speaker 2: Bush era. No, I look at the poll that I
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  Speaker 2: sort of been obsessed over of all the polling, even
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  Speaker 2: though they've all been very similar, has been Pew's. Because
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  Speaker 2: Pew had a large enough sample to have some interesting little...
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  Speaker 2: They were able to, I think, correctly find the following, right?
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  Speaker 2: And which you see tidbits up there, which is, people
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  Speaker 2: don't like the execution of Donald Trump, but they're not
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  Speaker 2: yet souring on his goals, right? And I think the
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  Speaker 2: Pew poll did the best job of at least showing
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  Speaker 2: that where, you know, what he's trying to do, there's
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  Speaker 2: still support for out there. His execution, though, is something
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  Speaker 2: that voters don't like at all. And then you see
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  Speaker 2: that when you see, oh, the Democrats are not, it's
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  Speaker 2: not a seesaw, right? Trump goes down, Democrats go up.
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  Speaker 2: You're not seeing that yet, right? Nothing, whatever, the Democrats
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  Speaker 2: haven't penetrated yet. The best way you could say it
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  Speaker 2: is Democratic messaging has yet to penetrate, or they're just
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  Speaker 2: not focused on it, or there is no unified Democratic message,
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  Speaker 2: which is probably closer to being the correct answer. And
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  Speaker 2: then the other thing that I found interesting in the
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  Speaker 2: Pew poll is they did this subset, they did this
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  Speaker 2: subset of non-voters. And what was interesting, because this to
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  Speaker 2: me tells me about the media climate. So at the
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  Speaker 2: start of his presidency in Pew, non-voters from 2024 approved,
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  Speaker 2: gave him a 44% job approval. So skeptical, but 44.
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  Speaker 2: Now he had collapsed down to 31 job approval among
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  Speaker 2: people that didn't vote. What that tells me, because non-voters
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  Speaker 2: are usually lower information voters. And what I mean by
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  Speaker 2: that is they're just not paying attention. It doesn't mean
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  Speaker 2: they're dumb. These are people that are busy or just
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  Speaker 2: aren't as engaged. But what they're getting, they don't like, right?
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  Speaker 2: So It does tell me that it's all bad for
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  Speaker 2: Trump right now, right? His media environment. I mean, Dave
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  Speaker 2: Portnoy is out there complaining about him, right? He doesn't
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  Speaker 2: even have a unified... The right-wing machine is not even
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  Speaker 2: unified in celebrating his first 100 days. So I just
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  Speaker 2: think this has been political malpractice, how they've handled this
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  Speaker 2: first 100 days, because there were ways to make this better.
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  Speaker 2: And they have just... I mean, can you imagine... If
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  Speaker 2: you didn't have George W. Bush to blame for the
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  Speaker 2: economy after the 100 days taking over in the Obama presidency.
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  Speaker 2: And Donald Trump said, yeah, I'm going to make sure
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  Speaker 2: everybody knows this is my economy now. Right? Like, you're like, okay, brother,
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  Speaker 2: it's all yours. You don't get to blame Biden anymore
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  Speaker 2: because you have actually impacted the direction of this economy
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  Speaker 2: and every voter now knows it.
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  Speaker 1: I mean, the Blaine Biden thing is interesting because Trump
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  Speaker 1: did today on Wednesday, he truthed that this was Biden's
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  Speaker 1: stock market. It's the overhang of Biden's economy.
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  Speaker 2: But Dan, I'm old enough to remember when the surge
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  Speaker 2: in the stock market during the transition was supposed to
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  Speaker 2: be Donald Trump's stock market surge. So I'm very confused.
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  Speaker 1: Yes. I mean, he took credit for stock market surges
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  Speaker 1: when Biden was president based on what he said to
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  Speaker 1: be polling that suggested he would win. So no, he's
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  Speaker 1: not consistent on this.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah.
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  Speaker 1: I know.
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  Speaker 2: We're shocked that Donald Trump isn't consistent.
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  Speaker 1: The blaming Biden thing is interesting because as you point out,
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  Speaker 1: for most of Obama's first term, voters in polling blamed
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  Speaker 1: Bush as much or more than Obama for the state
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  Speaker 1: of the economy. Now, there was a certain set of
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  Speaker 1: facts there, which was the economy collapsed before Obama was president.
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  Speaker 2: No, I mean, the facts were on his side, but
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  Speaker 2: in this way, I mean, I really believe that Trump
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  Speaker 2: could have convinced many people that, hey, we're still recovering
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  Speaker 2: from Biden's inflationary mess and all this stuff. And nope,
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  Speaker 2: not anymore.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, there was a failure to manage expectations, for sure.
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  Speaker 1: There's a way in which you could have said, this
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  Speaker 1: is going to take You know, this is like Obama
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  Speaker 1: used to say all the time, we didn't get in
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  Speaker 1: this mess overnight, we're not going to get out overnight,
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  Speaker 1: and it's going to take time. But launching the tariffs
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  Speaker 1: was the thing that, I mean, there was a world
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  Speaker 1: where he could have just not decided to blow up
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  Speaker 1: the economy himself. Like, that's the thing, right? It's not
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  Speaker 1: like he rhetorically messed it up, he substantively messed it up.
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  Speaker 2: Correct. His chief architect, right, with this tariff regime, Oren Kass,
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  Speaker 2: wrote this op-ed in the New York Times that laid
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  Speaker 2: out a much more reasonable way to have tried to
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  Speaker 2: execute this, which is essentially- You put out what you're
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  Speaker 2: gonna do, but you give everybody six months. You actually
• 7:57
  Speaker 2: don't do anything until October, until the fall, and you
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  Speaker 2: give yourself time for both business to prepare itself and
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  Speaker 2: perhaps trade deals to take place. But that's not the
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  Speaker 2: Donald Trump way. And if you actually are an advocate
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  Speaker 2: of this policy, you should be really angry with Donald
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  Speaker 2: Trump because he may tarnish the whole idea for decades.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, as we're recording this, the Senate may pass a–
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  Speaker 1: the Republican Senate may pass a resolution of disapproval on
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  Speaker 1: the Trump tariff. So it's all going to depend on
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  Speaker 1: if enough senators show up.
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  Speaker 2: I didn't expect this to happen until the spring of
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  Speaker 2: next year. I mean, that just shows you– Because people.
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  Speaker 1: Would be– Right, right. Because you think they'd be separating
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  Speaker 1: for the election?
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  Speaker 2: So I do. My three early primary guys that I'm
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  Speaker 2: obsessed with are Tillis, Cassidy, and Cornyn, right? None of
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  Speaker 2: the three are MAGA Republicans. All three are going to
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  Speaker 2: face primary challenges in Senate races. And the assumption right
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  Speaker 2: now is they're going to lose their primaries. You can't
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  Speaker 2: beat MAGA in a primary. I think the evidence so
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  Speaker 2: far has been true. But I'm very curious if one
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  Speaker 2: year from now, is it an asset for Tom Tillis
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  Speaker 2: that he's not MAGA? Is it an asset for John
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  Speaker 2: Cornyn that he's not MAGA in a Republican primary? I'm skeptical,
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  Speaker 2: but now I'm curious to watch to see if voters change.
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  Speaker 1: I mean, that's interesting because it's still in a Republican primary.
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  Speaker 1: You're talking about the highest turnout Republican voters. And there's
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  Speaker 1: one exception. And this could work for Cornyn, perhaps, I guess.
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  Speaker 1: But there's the one exception of someone who beat MAG
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  Speaker 1: in a primary is Brian Kemp, the governor of Georgia.
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  Speaker 3: Yeah.
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  Speaker 1: But he obviously has high approval and 100% name ID.
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  Speaker 1: And he was running against a terrible candidate.
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  Speaker 2: And governors, you want to know the single toughest thing
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  Speaker 2: to do is stop a governor from winning reelection. It
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  Speaker 2: is probably... Harder than anything. I mean, look at, it's
• 9:48
  Speaker 2: one of these things, if you're a true junkie listening
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  Speaker 2: to Dan and I here, go look at the history.
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  Speaker 2: Governors are harder to prevent from their first reelection than
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  Speaker 2: probably any other elected official there.
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  Speaker 4: Is out there.
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  Speaker 1: You know, as you pointed out, we have not had
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  Speaker 1: a seesaw effect. As Trump has gone down, Democrats have
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  Speaker 1: not gone up. Our party's approval rating is still at
• 10:09
  Speaker 1: its lowest level. Although there have been gains for the
• 10:12
  Speaker 1: Democrats in the generic ballot, up three, I think, in
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  Speaker 1: the most recent average I saw, which is Not great,
• 10:18
  Speaker 1: but it is an improvement of where we were six
• 10:20
  Speaker 1: months ago. What do you make of the sort of
• 10:24
  Speaker 1: internal debate within the Democratic Party about whether we– the
• 10:29
  Speaker 1: James Carville play dead, the sort of David Shore focus
• 10:33
  Speaker 1: on the economy and tariffs only, the sort of Chuck
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  Speaker 1: Schumer don't be in charge of the shutdown, the go
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  Speaker 1: after them on everything, or the Bernie Sanders AOC fight
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  Speaker 1: the oligarchy. Just what's your sort of take on– what
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  Speaker 1: Democrats are doing, and perhaps if you have thoughts on
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  Speaker 1: what they should be doing.
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  Speaker 2: Well, can I quote Barack Obama, the don't do stupid shit?
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  Speaker 1: Yeah.
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  Speaker 2: You know, idea two, which is, I think that's the
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  Speaker 2: position I'd be in this early, which is just don't
• 11:00
  Speaker 2: do stupid shit, right? Don't get out of your way.
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  Speaker 2: It's a little bit of carvel, a little bit like,
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  Speaker 2: but I look at it this way. I think a good, loud,
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  Speaker 2: messy debate would be healthy for the party. Now, you
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  Speaker 2: and I are old enough to go back to the
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  Speaker 2: I'm obsessed with the 88 to 92 experience, right? Which was,
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  Speaker 2: you know, 88 was one of those moments where Democrats
• 11:24
  Speaker 2: just couldn't believe they got crushed. It was one thing
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  Speaker 2: to lose, but they got crushed and it became this
• 11:28
  Speaker 2: massive external fight, right? And so you had Bill Clinton
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  Speaker 2: essentially deciding to start almost an alternative party in the
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  Speaker 2: DLC at the time. He picked a fight with the
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  Speaker 2: Jesse Jackson wing of the party purposely, right, to in
• 11:44
  Speaker 2: many ways to differentiate himself. And there was a knockdown,
• 11:49
  Speaker 2: drag out fight at times. Ron Brown was the DNC chair.
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  Speaker 2: And I remember, it's so funny to see how close
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  Speaker 2: Ron Brown and Bill Clinton came once he won the presidency.
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  Speaker 2: But there was a time when Ron Brown was DNC
• 12:00
  Speaker 2: chair where they saw Bill Clinton and the DLC as
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  Speaker 2: an arch enemy, right? As trying to upend what they
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  Speaker 2: were doing. But what's interesting about that experience, and I
• 12:08
  Speaker 2: would argue also the experience you had in 05, 06,
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  Speaker 2: and 07, which was also a similar period of democratic introspection,
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  Speaker 2: that I would argue all of this is what you should,
• 12:21
  Speaker 2: everybody should strike their own path to see what's working.
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  Speaker 2: This is a spaghetti at the wall moment. What's good
• 12:26
  Speaker 2: for AOC may not be good for Wes Moore, but
• 12:29
  Speaker 2: what's good for Wes Moore may not be good for
• 12:31
  Speaker 2: what's Pete Buttigieg. So, and at this point, I think
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  Speaker 2: the party is searching for a way. I think party
• 12:37
  Speaker 2: leaders ought to be trying different things. I think the
• 12:40
  Speaker 2: two people with the hardest job are Jeffries and Schumer, right?
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  Speaker 2: Because they have the titles. So there's this expectation that
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  Speaker 2: they should be the leader, but what are they leading, right?
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  Speaker 2: So I'm empathetic that it's hard for them to play leader,
• 12:56
  Speaker 2: but right now they're the leader because there's nobody else.
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  Speaker 2: So Schumer could be a better communicator. I don't know
• 13:03
  Speaker 2: how Schumer became a bad communicator. He used to be
• 13:05
  Speaker 2: a great communicator. The role changed. And I don't know. Yeah,
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  Speaker 2: it's fair. I mean, and it may be that he
• 13:11
  Speaker 2: was a good communicator in the previous way that communicating
• 13:15
  Speaker 2: took place. He has really struggled because I think he
• 13:18
  Speaker 2: made the right decision. I mean, I don't think the
• 13:20
  Speaker 2: government's open right now, by the way, if they should.
• 13:22
  Speaker 2: I'm convinced that Trump would have just selectively opened certain
• 13:27
  Speaker 2: parts of government. There wouldn't have been, maybe I'm wrong,
• 13:31
  Speaker 2: but I'm a cynic on that one. I do think
• 13:34
  Speaker 2: that there was, that you might've been handing them an opportunity,
• 13:38
  Speaker 2: not a potential loss. So I think his tactic was correct,
• 13:42
  Speaker 2: but how he messaged it, right, absolutely made it seem worse.
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  Speaker 2: So I can't sit here and say any one idea
• 13:50
  Speaker 2: is a bad idea and how everybody's doing because I
• 13:52
  Speaker 2: kind of think this is a– I think there needs
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  Speaker 2: to be a thousand flowers here and let's see which
• 13:58
  Speaker 2: ones bloom.
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  Speaker 1: I would just stay for the record here that while
• 14:01
  Speaker 1: I am quite old, I was in middle school and
• 14:04
  Speaker 1: early high school during the 1988 to 1992. Am I
• 14:06
  Speaker 1: that much older than you? I feel like you're poor.
• 14:09
  Speaker 2: No offense, Dan.
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  Speaker 1: I apologize.
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  Speaker 2: I wish I were your age then. You have an
• 14:12
  Speaker 2: old soul.
• 14:12
  Speaker 1: I'm an old soul, exactly.
• 14:13
  Speaker 2: Fair enough.
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  Speaker 1: But I do know that period. And what is interesting
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  Speaker 1: about that is the idea behind the DLC and Bill
• 14:22
  Speaker 1: Clinton was that the party had gone too far left.
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  Speaker 1: We had defined ourselves out of the mainstream with the
• 14:25
  Speaker 1: American people and we had to change. In order to
• 14:29
  Speaker 1: win election.
• 14:29
  Speaker 2: One big issue, law and order. Yeah.
• 14:31
  Speaker 1: And welfare.
• 14:32
  Speaker 2: And welfare, right. It was government support, but it was
• 14:34
  Speaker 2: law and order, right? And if you think about it,
• 14:37
  Speaker 2: think about the two things Bill Clinton had to do
• 14:40
  Speaker 2: in his 92 campaign, right? He had a mentally questionable
• 14:47
  Speaker 2: person was put to death. He needed to show he
• 14:50
  Speaker 2: was pro-death penalty. And it is still a controversial decision
• 14:56
  Speaker 2: to some people that he made. but not to the voters, right?
• 14:58
  Speaker 2: He was trying to virtue signal, hey, I'm a different
• 15:00
  Speaker 2: type of Democrat. I'm not afraid of the death penalty.
• 15:03
  Speaker 2: I'm not afraid of using these things. And then of course,
• 15:06
  Speaker 2: the so-called sister soldier moment where he sort of had
• 15:09
  Speaker 2: this cultural pushback. But that moment to me is I
• 15:16
  Speaker 2: wonder if somebody's going to try a Bill Clinton playbook, right?
• 15:20
  Speaker 2: I think Gavin Newsom is kind of trying it right now, right?
• 15:22
  Speaker 2: Which is try really hard to almost pick a fight
• 15:28
  Speaker 2: to show you're not a conventional progressive Democrat, at least
• 15:32
  Speaker 2: on cultural issues. I don't know if that's going to
• 15:34
  Speaker 2: be effective this time, but I do expect to see
• 15:38
  Speaker 2: a few candidates try it or a few Democrats try it.
• 15:40
  Speaker 1: I think that there's a flaw in that thinking, in
• 15:45
  Speaker 1: my view, which is in 1988, the vector of American
• 15:49
  Speaker 1: politics was left-right. And in 2025, it's inside, outside. And
• 15:55
  Speaker 1: so I just don't think the voters– Trump is a
• 15:57
  Speaker 1: perfect example of this, right? He is a very heterodoxical politician,
• 16:03
  Speaker 1: at least in the way voters view him, right? They
• 16:06
  Speaker 1: think he is more liberal on social issues than he
• 16:08
  Speaker 1: actually is because he's a billionaire from New York. He
• 16:11
  Speaker 1: talks about protecting Social Security and Medicare, ran to the
• 16:13
  Speaker 1: left on Social Security and Medicare in the Republican primary.
• 16:16
  Speaker 4: Right.
• 16:17
  Speaker 1: And has like these elements of populism within his far
• 16:20
  Speaker 1: right on a whole bunch of other things like immigration.
• 16:22
  Speaker 1: And I just don't know that people will think about,
• 16:25
  Speaker 1: if that is Newsom's plan and I don't know that
• 16:27
  Speaker 1: it is, I think that's a mistake.
• 16:29
  Speaker 2: Well, it's interesting. And so let me throw something else
• 16:31
  Speaker 2: at you. I have the other, my main thesis about
• 16:34
  Speaker 2: 2728 is that the Democratic primary electorate is going to
• 16:38
  Speaker 2: prioritize two things, new and electable. Now the problem with
• 16:42
  Speaker 2: electability is how subjective it is, right? You know, That
• 16:46
  Speaker 2: is sometimes in the eye of the beholder, but some
• 16:48
  Speaker 2: of that can bear out in polling and some of that.
• 16:51
  Speaker 2: And if I were to, new and electable is arguably
• 16:56
  Speaker 2: how Barack Obama won, right? He made the case, hey,
• 17:00
  Speaker 2: I'm new and let me prove to you that I'm electable.
• 17:03
  Speaker 2: And if I recall, the 06 cycle was actually the
• 17:05
  Speaker 2: cycle that proved he was electable because Barack Obama was
• 17:09
  Speaker 2: invited to every red state Democratic, I think you were working,
• 17:12
  Speaker 2: Tim Johnson's? Right?
• 17:14
  Speaker 1: I don't think you guys invited- I was Evan Bayh
• 17:16
  Speaker 1: in the 06 cycle. We were not.
• 17:18
  Speaker 2: Evan Bayh, you were Tim Johnson in 02, right? Okay.
• 17:20
  Speaker 1: 02, yeah.
• 17:20
  Speaker 2: But if I recall, there were a lot of red
• 17:23
  Speaker 2: state Democrats that invited Barack Obama to campaign for him
• 17:26
  Speaker 2: in 06. Not many who invited Hillary Clinton, right? And
• 17:29
  Speaker 2: that was sort of the first piece. So he was
• 17:32
  Speaker 2: able to create this case that, hey, I can go
• 17:37
  Speaker 2: anywhere around the country. Oh, and oh, by the way,
• 17:39
  Speaker 2: I'm also new, right? So- And the reason I assume
• 17:44
  Speaker 2: it's new and electable is I think there'll be a
• 17:46
  Speaker 2: desperation to win, right? Trump just exhausts everybody, just like
• 17:49
  Speaker 2: we saw with Biden with the 2020 race and what
• 17:52
  Speaker 2: happened there. And the Democratic Party always wants new, right?
• 17:56
  Speaker 2: That has been the hallmark of when there's not an
• 17:58
  Speaker 2: incumbent involved. You know, I've always believed the rise of
• 18:02
  Speaker 2: Bernie Sanders had nothing to do with his politics and
• 18:05
  Speaker 2: his ideology and everything to do with Hillary Clinton was
• 18:08
  Speaker 2: the known candidate. Who's the new candidate? All right, we'll
• 18:12
  Speaker 2: try that. I think there were a lot of people
• 18:17
  Speaker 2: who could have been the alternative to Hillary had they run.
• 18:20
  Speaker 2: Most people just didn't run. And he was really the
• 18:23
  Speaker 2: only viable alternative that.
• 18:25
  Speaker 1: Was out there.
• 18:25
  Speaker 2: So I do think new will matter. And what I
• 18:30
  Speaker 2: mean by that is, I don't think there's a name
• 18:32
  Speaker 2: you and I will discuss today that might be that candidate, right?
• 18:39
  Speaker 2: Think about Pete Buttigieg. Pete Buttigieg in 2017, who had
• 18:43
  Speaker 2: him in the finals for the presidential nomination in 2020, right?
• 18:49
  Speaker 2: So I look around it. Maybe it's Abigail Spanberger, right?
• 18:53
  Speaker 2: Maybe it's somebody we haven't thought of, a state senator
• 18:56
  Speaker 2: that goes viral and pulls an upset in Kansas or
• 18:58
  Speaker 2: Nebraska or Iowa, right? That's, to me, just as viable
• 19:03
  Speaker 2: as Cory Booker figuring out a way to win the nomination.
• 19:06
  Speaker 1: I think I would put a– maybe this goes along
• 19:09
  Speaker 1: with Newt. But I think the Democratic activists and donors
• 19:13
  Speaker 1: are going to put a lot of stock in the
• 19:15
  Speaker 1: communications talent. Like, can you get attention? And I think
• 19:18
  Speaker 1: one of the lessons of the people we'll take from
• 19:20
  Speaker 1: the Biden presidency and maybe– and probably unfairly so of
• 19:24
  Speaker 1: Kamala Harris's 106 or whatever it was days is that
• 19:27
  Speaker 1: we got out communicated. And we need someone who can
• 19:31
  Speaker 1: go on the– we'll talk about someone who can go
• 19:34
  Speaker 1: on Joe Rogan until the end of time. But it's
• 19:36
  Speaker 1: something bigger than that.
• 19:37
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 19:37
  Speaker 2: Somebody can go to the Chuck Todd cast.
• 19:40
  Speaker 1: Somebody can go on the Chuck Todd cast. That's where
• 19:42
  Speaker 1: the real metal is made.
• 19:44
  Speaker 2: No, but actually what it really is, is can you
• 19:46
  Speaker 2: go everywhere? Not just specific places, right? Like, you know,
• 19:50
  Speaker 2: I've always thought that that was Donald Trump's secret sauce.
• 19:52
  Speaker 2: He said no to nobody.
• 19:54
  Speaker 1: And it was, I mean, it helped Obama. Obama was
• 19:56
  Speaker 1: on Monday Night Football a month before NASA president.
• 19:58
  Speaker 2: Obama would say no to nobody, right? Like that, you know,
• 20:01
  Speaker 2: I used to think it was Chris Christie's, you know,
• 20:04
  Speaker 2: special powers until he had his own, you know, he
• 20:07
  Speaker 2: cost himself, but- That used to be an advantage for
• 20:10
  Speaker 2: him because he was willing to go anywhere.
• 20:22
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• 21:37
  Speaker 1: Talking about just how various potential 2028 Democrats are approaching this,
• 21:43
  Speaker 1: Gretchen Whitmer, who has sort of brought out an approach,
• 21:46
  Speaker 1: I think, to this that is surprising a lot of people.
• 21:50
  Speaker 2: Whitmer versus Pritzker, right? Like two opposite ways to go.
• 21:54
  Speaker 1: Like Pritzker or Chris Murphy or anyone else who is
• 21:57
  Speaker 1: all full bore anti-Trump all the time. Whitmer was in
• 22:00
  Speaker 1: the White House last month, sort of ended up in
• 22:03
  Speaker 1: an unfortunate situation where she unbeknownst to herself, ended up
• 22:06
  Speaker 1: in an executive order signing targeting individuals for criminal prosecution,
• 22:11
  Speaker 1: was caught by the New York Times hiding her face
• 22:13
  Speaker 1: with binders. But then she was there to talk about
• 22:18
  Speaker 1: an important project for Michigan. That project was announced this week.
• 22:22
  Speaker 1: She was there. She didn't plan to speak at the
• 22:23
  Speaker 1: Trump rally, but Trump did invite her on stage and
• 22:26
  Speaker 1: she went up on stage and didn't– praised Trump, but
• 22:31
  Speaker 1: was grateful for the, but seemed somewhat, she wasn't rude
• 22:34
  Speaker 1: to him for sure. What do you make of her approach,
• 22:38
  Speaker 1: presuming as I do that she plans to run for
• 22:41
  Speaker 1: president when her term as governor is up?
• 22:44
  Speaker 2: Well, look, I think, you know, well, let me throw
• 22:48
  Speaker 2: the question back at you. I was at dinner with
• 22:51
  Speaker 2: a very prominent Democratic donor who then held very prominent
• 22:56
  Speaker 2: ambassadorships in the last two Democratic administrations. which I know
• 23:00
  Speaker 2: actually doesn't give you a lot of clues. Cause that's
• 23:02
  Speaker 2: actually still a pretty reasonably long list.
• 23:04
  Speaker 1: But you know, even if I have a guess, I won't,
• 23:06
  Speaker 1: I won't make it.
• 23:07
  Speaker 2: Don't say it. Cause I don't want to do that,
• 23:08
  Speaker 2: but it's, but it's the type of person. Yep. That's
• 23:11
  Speaker 2: why I'm telling you this. You know who these, this is,
• 23:14
  Speaker 2: I always say these, these people are the conventional wisdom.
• 23:17
  Speaker 2: And I don't say that disparagingly, like, you know, they're
• 23:20
  Speaker 2: moving with where, and this person said to me, oh,
• 23:23
  Speaker 2: that photo op that she's dead. She's never living that down.
• 23:27
  Speaker 2: It's over. And I'm like, really? I thought that was
• 23:30
  Speaker 2: a little extreme, right?
• 23:31
  Speaker 1: That it was over.
• 23:32
  Speaker 2: I will say this. I'm a believer that you got
• 23:35
  Speaker 2: to lean in. I think you're building your presidential campaign.
• 23:39
  Speaker 2: You should do it in the same way that good
• 23:42
  Speaker 2: football teams use the draft, which is you double down
• 23:46
  Speaker 2: on strength. Don't try to be something you're not, okay?
• 23:50
  Speaker 2: Don't try to be something that your team's not built for.
• 23:53
  Speaker 2: Don't try to be a politician that's off the brand, right?
• 23:56
  Speaker 2: So her brand is what? That she is... willing to
• 23:59
  Speaker 2: go talk to red voters and blue voters. So her
• 24:03
  Speaker 2: brand is the swing state person, all of that. So
• 24:07
  Speaker 2: the problem is she got caught apologizing, essentially, for being
• 24:12
  Speaker 2: with Trump, right? The folder is kind of a version of, ooh,
• 24:16
  Speaker 2: I didn't mean, I'm trying to reach out, but oh,
• 24:19
  Speaker 2: I'm embarrassed there. Or even at the National Guard ceremony
• 24:22
  Speaker 2: when her first instinct was, I wasn't planning on speaking.
• 24:25
  Speaker 2: I thought that was a moment of weakness, which is, no.
• 24:28
  Speaker 3: No.
• 24:28
  Speaker 2: You got to be comfortable in your own skin. This
• 24:30
  Speaker 2: is your strength, right? If she's in there, it's because
• 24:33
  Speaker 2: she can win, right? It's because she can govern in
• 24:37
  Speaker 2: a sort of from the middle out. I'm not saying
• 24:39
  Speaker 2: she's a centrist, but that's... So I think that tactically,
• 24:45
  Speaker 2: I think what she's done is right. Her execution though, right?
• 24:49
  Speaker 2: You look at it, her individual performance, it's like Chuck Schumer,
• 24:51
  Speaker 2: he made the right decision. But you stepped on yourself,
• 24:55
  Speaker 2: but because of how poorly you communicated, you know, you
• 24:59
  Speaker 2: kind of communicated a flip-flop there. No, we're going to
• 25:01
  Speaker 2: force a shutdown. No, no, we're not. That's, that's a
• 25:03
  Speaker 2: terrible idea. You know, here's Whitmer. If you're trying to
• 25:07
  Speaker 2: show you're willing to reach across the aisle and you're
• 25:08
  Speaker 2: going to work with whoever you got to work with,
• 25:11
  Speaker 2: then don't act like you're embarrassed when you get caught
• 25:13
  Speaker 2: doing it.
• 25:14
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 25:14
  Speaker 2: So I don't know, you know, you're, you, I think you, you,
• 25:20
  Speaker 2: You're pretty good at identifying problems like that. Do you
• 25:23
  Speaker 2: think that's going to be something that lingers for her,
• 25:25
  Speaker 2: that it becomes, it's sort of like it sits and
• 25:28
  Speaker 2: you're like, well, you did the right thing, but why
• 25:31
  Speaker 2: are you embarrassed about it?
• 25:33
  Speaker 1: I think she has plenty of time to fix it.
• 25:35
  Speaker 1: That picture will linger with the sort of people you
• 25:37
  Speaker 1: had dinner with, the people who will raise donors and
• 25:43
  Speaker 1: the kind of people that you're seeking endorsements from in
• 25:47
  Speaker 1: wherever the primary is going to be this time, South Carolina,
• 25:49
  Speaker 1: I guess, and Nevada. Like when you're sitting down with
• 25:51
  Speaker 1: a state senator.
• 25:52
  Speaker 2: Do we know the primary calendar?
• 25:54
  Speaker 1: We do not. By the way?
• 25:55
  Speaker 3: We do not.
• 25:55
  Speaker 2: That's what I thought.
• 25:56
  Speaker 1: It does not exist because it was a one-year deal.
• 25:59
  Speaker 1: Where's J.B.
• 26:00
  Speaker 2: Pritzker? So he goes to New Hampshire because he didn't
• 26:02
  Speaker 2: know where else to go, did he?
• 26:04
  Speaker 1: Yeah. I mean, it's not on the list, but it's
• 26:06
  Speaker 1: what the press thinks of. I think people assume it
• 26:10
  Speaker 1: will not be Iowa. So it's, you might as well
• 26:12
  Speaker 1: go to New Hampshire. And does Vegas still, like, yes,
• 26:14
  Speaker 1: it'll be very important.
• 26:16
  Speaker 2: But nobody, it's so hard to get an event. in
• 26:19
  Speaker 2: Vegas because people, they're not, it's not a political community
• 26:23
  Speaker 2: that's used to it yet, right? You know, there's an established, right?
• 26:27
  Speaker 2: You know, oh, the five people, hey, I need to
• 26:29
  Speaker 2: get an audience of 50 in a New Hampshire event, right?
• 26:32
  Speaker 1: Oh yeah, I got so-and-so on speed dial. I go
• 26:35
  Speaker 1: to the Puritan back room and I get 50 people
• 26:37
  Speaker 1: from Manchester to do it and we are good to go. Yeah,
• 26:40
  Speaker 1: that's why you do it. So the point on Whitmer is,
• 26:44
  Speaker 1: I think that the, there's plenty of time to fix this,
• 26:47
  Speaker 1: I agree with you that the– like the question it
• 26:50
  Speaker 1: will raise for people if she can't prove otherwise over
• 26:53
  Speaker 1: the coming period of time and she'll have plenty of
• 26:54
  Speaker 1: time to do it is political instincts, right? Did she–
• 26:58
  Speaker 1: the way that she played it did not work for
• 27:02
  Speaker 1: her the way it should have. Like you either got
• 27:04
  Speaker 1: to double down on it. She said lean into it.
• 27:06
  Speaker 1: Find a moment in the oval– I have no problem–
• 27:10
  Speaker 1: like if you want to work with the Trump administration
• 27:12
  Speaker 1: trying to get something for your state, like that is
• 27:14
  Speaker 1: still your job. I get that.
• 27:16
  Speaker 2: That's why you were elected. And by the way, my
• 27:17
  Speaker 2: guess is she promised she'd do that.
• 27:19
  Speaker 4: Right.
• 27:20
  Speaker 1: It's been a big thing she's been working on from
• 27:22
  Speaker 1: the very beginning.
• 27:23
  Speaker 2: That's right.
• 27:23
  Speaker 1: So she should deliver that. And I'm very sympathetic to
• 27:26
  Speaker 1: where the situation Newsom was in after the fires where
• 27:29
  Speaker 1: you have this– capricious, vengeful president who might deny life-saving
• 27:34
  Speaker 1: aid to your state. So you have to do that dance.
• 27:37
  Speaker 1: I get that. I think once you find yourself even
• 27:40
  Speaker 1: accidentally in the Oval Office while the president is targeting
• 27:42
  Speaker 1: two individuals for criminal prosecution because they spoke out against them,
• 27:46
  Speaker 1: you would have to use... Some people say she should
• 27:48
  Speaker 1: have yelled in that moment, but then you got to
• 27:50
  Speaker 1: go to the mics afterwards and condemn that, even if
• 27:53
  Speaker 1: it puts at risk the other project. There's a nimbleness,
• 27:56
  Speaker 1: I think, that there will be.
• 27:57
  Speaker 2: Can you think of a moment? Do you remember a
• 27:59
  Speaker 2: moment during your Your years where a candidate got caught
• 28:03
  Speaker 2: in something and it's like, oh boy, why don't you
• 28:04
  Speaker 2: go clean it up there at the end? I feel
• 28:07
  Speaker 2: like there's one of those happened during the Obama years,
• 28:09
  Speaker 2: but I can't.
• 28:10
  Speaker 1: Oh, there are plenty of them.
• 28:15
  Speaker 2: But you're absolutely right. And that's why it's like, I
• 28:18
  Speaker 2: struggle with the Whitmer because I think, again, her brand
• 28:21
  Speaker 2: is I work with everybody. And I think that's her,
• 28:24
  Speaker 2: if you tell me, I do the coma test. If
• 28:27
  Speaker 2: I'm in a coma- I wake up and you tell
• 28:29
  Speaker 2: me Gretchen Whitmer's the nominee. Oh, well, she must have
• 28:31
  Speaker 2: prioritized this, right? You know what I mean? Like you're just,
• 28:34
  Speaker 2: and the party bought into the idea that, hey, we
• 28:36
  Speaker 2: need somebody who can win and we need somebody who's
• 28:40
  Speaker 2: willing to work with red voters as much as there
• 28:43
  Speaker 2: were blue voters, right? So I get it. And that's
• 28:47
  Speaker 2: why it's just poor execution. That's really what it was
• 28:51
  Speaker 2: on both cases.
• 28:52
  Speaker 1: We should also stipulate that anyone, like I agree with
• 28:55
  Speaker 1: your coma test, but Just we have no idea what
• 28:58
  Speaker 1: voters are actually going to want when the primary even starts.
• 29:01
  Speaker 1: The example I always use is after Bush won in 2004,
• 29:05
  Speaker 1: the entire consensus was we need someone who can win
• 29:09
  Speaker 1: a red state. And in that vision was a white man.
• 29:13
  Speaker 1: People cannot fathom, a lot of our younger listeners and staff,
• 29:17
  Speaker 1: that Mark Warner was the toast of the town in
• 29:19
  Speaker 1: the year 2005. People were clamoring over themselves to work
• 29:23
  Speaker 1: for Mark Warner.
• 29:24
  Speaker 2: That was my first– I think that was my first
• 29:28
  Speaker 2: NBC scoop for them was reporting that Mark Warner wasn't running.
• 29:32
  Speaker 1: Which was a gigantic deal. I was working for Evan
• 29:33
  Speaker 1: Bayh at the time.
• 29:34
  Speaker 2: That was a big deal at the time.
• 29:35
  Speaker 1: We had real visions of being the next Mark Warner.
• 29:37
  Speaker 2: Speaking of Evan Bayh, and look, let's be honest. Why
• 29:40
  Speaker 2: did you go work for Evan Bayh? Because you cared
• 29:42
  Speaker 2: about the state of Indiana's policies?
• 29:43
  Speaker 1: Sure.
• 29:44
  Speaker 2: But you thought maybe that was a presidential campaign.
• 29:48
  Speaker 1: Well, two reasons. One, he told me he was going
• 29:50
  Speaker 1: to run for president. And two, almost as importantly, I
• 29:54
  Speaker 1: had just helped make Tom Daschle the first Senate leader
• 29:57
  Speaker 1: to lose reelection in 50 years. And so if someone's
• 30:00
  Speaker 1: offering me a job, I'm taking that job. So, but yeah,
• 30:03
  Speaker 1: that was a thought was that was the kind of
• 30:04
  Speaker 1: flexible candidate. And then two years later, Barack Hussein Obama
• 30:08
  Speaker 1: from the South side of Chicago via Indonesia and Hawaii
• 30:11
  Speaker 1: wins the nomination and wins the presidency in a landslide.
• 30:14
  Speaker 2: And so like, we don't know by the way, but, but,
• 30:17
  Speaker 2: but it didn't mean that people weren't wrong.
• 30:20
  Speaker 3: Right.
• 30:20
  Speaker 2: They had to figure out how to win some red States. Well,
• 30:22
  Speaker 2: it turns out you needed a better communicator. If you
• 30:25
  Speaker 2: have a good communicator, they can win a red state,
• 30:27
  Speaker 2: you know, and, And frankly, I thought, well, anyway, Obama
• 30:33
  Speaker 2: always knew the limitations of his ideology. He may have believed,
• 30:38
  Speaker 2: which is something that I think is a lost art
• 30:41
  Speaker 2: these days.
• 30:42
  Speaker 1: To know where the public is going to be.
• 30:45
  Speaker 2: Yeah. To sort of be able to balance, look, I
• 30:47
  Speaker 2: have some views. I always say this, I get frustrated.
• 30:51
  Speaker 2: People think they know my political views. I'm like, no,
• 30:52
  Speaker 2: you don't. I said, I just know how things get done.
• 30:56
  Speaker 2: And I just believe you get most things done from
• 30:58
  Speaker 2: the middle out. But on some issues, if I told
• 31:02
  Speaker 2: you my position, you'd think I'm some radical lefty or
• 31:04
  Speaker 2: some radical this or whatever. But the longer you live,
• 31:08
  Speaker 2: the longer you see this town operate, you realize, well,
• 31:10
  Speaker 2: if you want anything to stick, you got to take Obamacare.
• 31:14
  Speaker 2: That was not the way he wanted to pass healthcare,
• 31:17
  Speaker 2: not even structurally necessarily. But he decided, no, I want
• 31:21
  Speaker 2: to do it. So what's the best way to politically
• 31:24
  Speaker 2: get it done, right? And that's all I think voters
• 31:27
  Speaker 2: are looking for. Are you a pragmatist enough to get
• 31:31
  Speaker 2: to your goals? We don't care how you do it
• 31:33
  Speaker 2: as long as you achieve a goal.
• 31:44
  Speaker 3: This show is sponsored by BetterHelp. Therapy can feel like
• 31:46
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• 31:50
  Speaker 1: It's really worth it.
• 31:51
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  Speaker 3: all therapy boys here, especially, you know, just the people
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• 33:02
  Speaker 1: Let's transition a little bit to the state of the
• 33:05
  Speaker 1: media today. You were the editor of The Hotline, which
• 33:10
  Speaker 1: is when you and I first met. A publication that
• 33:13
  Speaker 1: was literally faxed to my office. And every person in
• 33:15
  Speaker 1: Washington ate their lunch while reading the hotline, printed out
• 33:18
  Speaker 1: on a piece of paper.
• 33:20
  Speaker 2: It's pretty much the original newsletter, right?
• 33:23
  Speaker 1: Yeah. It's what Playbook and everything else is based on.
• 33:26
  Speaker 2: It's all derivative. The note was a derivative. All these
• 33:29
  Speaker 2: things were derivative of the original hotline.
• 33:31
  Speaker 1: But actually more valuable than these things because the internet
• 33:34
  Speaker 1: was nascent. And what you would do is it would
• 33:38
  Speaker 1: tell you what was happening in every state and every district.
• 33:40
  Speaker 1: Cause you guys, you pull those episodes.
• 33:42
  Speaker 2: And we went out of our, we had to create
• 33:43
  Speaker 2: a network of people that, I mean, Dan, if I
• 33:46
  Speaker 2: told you, I mean, it's no different than, you know,
• 33:48
  Speaker 2: building volunteers, but I had, you know, all sorts of
• 33:50
  Speaker 2: weird relationships with people who liked clipping papers and faxing
• 33:54
  Speaker 2: them to me for, in exchange for a free subscription
• 33:56
  Speaker 2: to the hotline. And they got up either, they bought
• 33:59
  Speaker 2: the bulldog edition at one o'clock in the morning and
• 34:01
  Speaker 2: sent me stuff or whatever. But yeah, that was our
• 34:04
  Speaker 2: internet that we built.
• 34:05
  Speaker 1: You're at the hotline and then NBC, uh, as political director,
• 34:09
  Speaker 1: then host of Meet the Press, White House correspondent.
• 34:13
  Speaker 2: Ultimate sort of establishment media gig, right?
• 34:15
  Speaker 1: Yes, exactly. That's what I was going to say. And
• 34:16
  Speaker 1: now you have left NBC. You're an independent journalist.
• 34:20
  Speaker 2: How's the water? Tell me.
• 34:23
  Speaker 1: It's great. I'll be honest with you. The more the merrier.
• 34:27
  Speaker 1: I want to ask you about your decision to do
• 34:28
  Speaker 1: it because I think it says something not just about
• 34:30
  Speaker 1: your journey, but maybe how media has changed over the
• 34:33
  Speaker 1: 25 years that you and I have known each other.
• 34:35
  Speaker 1: So just how did you end up hosting a podcast
• 34:38
  Speaker 1: like I do?
• 34:41
  Speaker 2: So, you know, look, it's a good question. I've sort of,
• 34:44
  Speaker 2: you know, I've soured on traditional media because traditional media
• 34:48
  Speaker 2: doesn't want to grow anymore. And it's not that, you know,
• 34:50
  Speaker 2: one of the things I said about leaving NBC is,
• 34:54
  Speaker 2: you know, the last year was hard because it was
• 34:57
  Speaker 2: the first time I worked anywhere where there wasn't an
• 35:00
  Speaker 2: environment to grow. Now, I've had to lay people off.
• 35:04
  Speaker 2: I've been at cuts, but every other sort of time
• 35:10
  Speaker 2: that there was a sort of a media recession, right.
• 35:12
  Speaker 2: Where you had to tighten the belt, but you would
• 35:14
  Speaker 2: tighten the belt on some legacy media project or older
• 35:17
  Speaker 2: media project, but you would double down and invest on
• 35:20
  Speaker 2: what the new was. Right. And there was always, and even,
• 35:23
  Speaker 2: even my last two years of, of meet the press,
• 35:26
  Speaker 2: I was focused on streaming, right. I was focused on
• 35:28
  Speaker 2: getting the show ready for like, it was clear we're
• 35:31
  Speaker 2: headed here, you know, and, and it felt like a,
• 35:34
  Speaker 2: it felt like where, where people were going to recover
• 35:37
  Speaker 2: from cable, right. You know, cable was, it, Cable feels like,
• 35:42
  Speaker 2: I call cable news FM radio for the 90s, right?
• 35:46
  Speaker 2: There's still money to be made, but you can feel
• 35:49
  Speaker 2: that its relevance is slowly receding. FM radio, right? Radio
• 35:53
  Speaker 2: had impact in the 90s, but you knew its relevance
• 35:56
  Speaker 2: was receding, right? Howard Stern or Rush Limbaugh could make
• 35:59
  Speaker 2: some waves, but by the turn of the century, radio
• 36:02
  Speaker 2: was almost irrelevant as a medium. And I don't know
• 36:06
  Speaker 2: if that's 2030 with cable, right? It's going to be it. Um,
• 36:12
  Speaker 2: so I look, I'm, I'm, I'm sort of in, I'm
• 36:16
  Speaker 2: sort of have a split personality here, right? I've got it.
• 36:18
  Speaker 2: I want to, I still feel like I've got something
• 36:20
  Speaker 2: to say in the political analyst space. I, and the
• 36:23
  Speaker 2: one thing I was doing that I enjoyed the most
• 36:25
  Speaker 2: at NBC was the podcast. I do think the Sunday
• 36:29
  Speaker 2: show interview and frankly, the television interview as we know
• 36:32
  Speaker 2: it in traditional media is just useless. I, I, I
• 36:36
  Speaker 2: know that people are trying to make it useful, but
• 36:39
  Speaker 2: there's whether it's whether it's politicians who are trying to
• 36:44
  Speaker 2: use the medium to raise money, or it's journalists trying
• 36:47
  Speaker 2: to use the interview to become influencers, whatever it is, right?
• 36:51
  Speaker 2: The podcast is the one, you know, for political discussions,
• 36:54
  Speaker 2: having the 30 minutes, having the nuance, right? Feels like
• 36:58
  Speaker 2: it's just a more fulfilling time, both for the guest.
• 37:02
  Speaker 2: I mean, every elected official I've interviewed so far, and
• 37:04
  Speaker 2: whether it's in my previous version of the podcast or now, they,
• 37:08
  Speaker 2: you know, it's been easier to book them for this
• 37:10
  Speaker 2: than it was for the Sunday show.
• 37:12
  Speaker 3: Right?
• 37:13
  Speaker 2: Because the Sunday show felt like a stress test, right?
• 37:16
  Speaker 2: And you were worrying about so many other things where this,
• 37:19
  Speaker 2: you feel like you get a... So I just enjoy
• 37:22
  Speaker 2: this format more, right? So just as personal thing. But
• 37:26
  Speaker 2: the other part is, you talk about the hotline. I
• 37:32
  Speaker 2: didn't own the hotline, but I felt like an entrepreneur, right?
• 37:34
  Speaker 2: I felt like I was part of the ownership group.
• 37:36
  Speaker 2: I wasn't, trust me. This newsletter craze happened and we
• 37:39
  Speaker 2: didn't make any money off of it. That's always something
• 37:42
  Speaker 2: I've the late Doug Bailey and I used to laugh
• 37:44
  Speaker 2: at all the time. But I do think we're in
• 37:48
  Speaker 2: a moment of, you know, if you look at the
• 37:50
  Speaker 2: history of, and I just go back to sort of
• 37:53
  Speaker 2: the late 19th century, going through the last sort of
• 37:56
  Speaker 2: 130 years of media, it's been a series of fragmentation
• 38:00
  Speaker 2: and consolidations, right? When we figured out how to reproduce
• 38:04
  Speaker 2: the photograph, magazines proliferated. And we had a slew of
• 38:08
  Speaker 2: magazines in the 10s, the 20s, and the 30s. the
• 38:13
  Speaker 2: initial beginning of radio. Man, there were radio stations all over,
• 38:17
  Speaker 2: all locally owned. But in each case, over time, you
• 38:20
  Speaker 2: got consolidation. And every time a new technology came, there'd
• 38:24
  Speaker 2: be some fragmentation, cables, another one. Over time, it turned
• 38:28
  Speaker 2: into consolidation. We're now at, look, streaming and the ability
• 38:31
  Speaker 2: to sort of instantaneously be anywhere you want to be,
• 38:36
  Speaker 2: interview anywhere you want to interview. I mean, think of this.
• 38:39
  Speaker 2: It wasn't that long ago, Dan, that NBC used to
• 38:42
  Speaker 2: have something called Where in the World is Matt Lauer?
• 38:45
  Speaker 2: And it was a big deal because it was like,
• 38:48
  Speaker 2: we're going to broadcast from the Gobi Desert, you know, right?
• 38:51
  Speaker 2: Or we're going to broadcast from the South Pole. Well,
• 38:55
  Speaker 2: anybody with a phone can do this now, right? Like
• 38:58
  Speaker 2: there is no limits, right? So that is, notice that
• 39:00
  Speaker 2: there's no Where in the World is Al Roker or,
• 39:03
  Speaker 2: you know, I say this because that's, you're like, so what? right?
• 39:07
  Speaker 2: There's some Instagram feed that's probably been doing this for
• 39:10
  Speaker 2: the last 10 years, right? Showing you in all these places.
• 39:13
  Speaker 2: So I do think that I spent a year sort
• 39:18
  Speaker 2: of on this journey to figure out why do they
• 39:20
  Speaker 2: hate us? How did we lose trust? And the ultimate
• 39:23
  Speaker 2: conclusion I came to was the loss of local, that
• 39:26
  Speaker 2: the gutting of local news. I mean, I have this
• 39:29
  Speaker 2: sort of cheap hot take line, which is a guy
• 39:31
  Speaker 2: named Craig thought classifieds ought to be free, yada, yada, yada,
• 39:34
  Speaker 2: Donald Trump became president. And it's, you know, because it
• 39:39
  Speaker 2: turned out any news organization, newspaper that had a circulation
• 39:45
  Speaker 2: of 50,000 or less, a majority of their revenue was classifieds.
• 39:48
  Speaker 2: And so it just gutted It just got it. And
• 39:52
  Speaker 2: I do think that national media has never been fully
• 39:54
  Speaker 2: trusted by people, but local media gave where our character references, right?
• 39:58
  Speaker 2: When local media sort of was reporting what we're reporting, oh, okay.
• 40:02
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 40:02
  Speaker 2: You know, that, yeah, I, you know, I know those
• 40:04
  Speaker 2: guys or, you know, my kid goes to school with
• 40:06
  Speaker 2: that guy's kid, or, you know, there was just a
• 40:09
  Speaker 2: little bit more familiarity. And I think it gave us trust.
• 40:12
  Speaker 2: And I think the loss of, of local is why
• 40:15
  Speaker 2: The farther you are away from a politician or the
• 40:18
  Speaker 2: farther you're away from a media person, the more you
• 40:20
  Speaker 2: assume they don't know how you live. They don't understand
• 40:22
  Speaker 2: your life. So when I'm not making content, that's what
• 40:30
  Speaker 2: I'm focused on is I want to try to scale
• 40:32
  Speaker 2: local news. I want to try to find a revenue
• 40:34
  Speaker 2: stream because I don't think nonprofit's the answer. I think
• 40:37
  Speaker 2: it hasn't worked. It's filled the vacuum. But unfortunately, I
• 40:42
  Speaker 2: think a lot of these nonprofit news organizations are making
• 40:44
  Speaker 2: too much what I call journalism for journalists and not
• 40:47
  Speaker 2: enough service journalism. And I think local news really needs
• 40:51
  Speaker 2: to be in service of the people that live in
• 40:53
  Speaker 2: a community, meaning you're helping them live their lives versus
• 40:57
  Speaker 2: national news, which I think is your civics telling you
• 41:00
  Speaker 2: what the macro view of the world is. And I
• 41:04
  Speaker 2: have a thesis that youth sports and high school sports
• 41:08
  Speaker 2: can be the glue and the revenue stream that could
• 41:12
  Speaker 2: be the future of local news. So in short, that's
• 41:16
  Speaker 2: why this is exciting to me, because I can both
• 41:19
  Speaker 2: create a podcast, independently own it, and pursue this. I
• 41:24
  Speaker 2: enjoy the fact that I don't have to ask permission
• 41:26
  Speaker 2: to some corporate parent to do anything right now.
• 41:29
  Speaker 1: The local thing is really interesting in terms of how
• 41:30
  Speaker 1: it affects our politics. I did an interview with Jon
• 41:33
  Speaker 1: Tester after he lost, and one of the things we
• 41:35
  Speaker 1: talked about was how much the decimation of local news
• 41:38
  Speaker 1: in these red States has hurt Democrats. Like when I
• 41:41
  Speaker 1: worked for Tim Johnson in 2002 center from South Dakota,
• 41:45
  Speaker 1: he only won reelection because we were able to run
• 41:47
  Speaker 1: a campaign where he was within the local press all
• 41:49
  Speaker 1: the time. So people knew who he was and what
• 41:51
  Speaker 1: he did as opposed to the caricature of him. And
• 41:53
  Speaker 1: so like that is like tester was saying, like how
• 41:56
  Speaker 1: much that had changed from when he first won in
• 41:58
  Speaker 1: oh six or whatever it was to now was there
• 42:00
  Speaker 1: just wasn't those people who could tell your story to
• 42:03
  Speaker 1: people like, In a non-polarized way. And so this has
• 42:07
  Speaker 1: a huge, huge impact in what's happening in politics.
• 42:11
  Speaker 2: No, and I think if, and look, this is not
• 42:13
  Speaker 2: just about, you know, starting a local news organization that
• 42:17
  Speaker 2: is only focused on trying to figure out what's happening
• 42:19
  Speaker 2: at city council meetings. It's also just simply about helping people.
• 42:23
  Speaker 2: Where do I find a restaurant I can take my
• 42:25
  Speaker 2: family out tonight that isn't going to be break the bank?
• 42:28
  Speaker 2: And hey, did you know this store's got, you know,
• 42:31
  Speaker 2: the newspaper was an incredible device. And what I think
• 42:38
  Speaker 2: the biggest mistake we all made as journalists was assuming
• 42:40
  Speaker 2: most people subscribe to the paper to pay for news.
• 42:44
  Speaker 1: No.
• 42:45
  Speaker 2: Most people subscribe to the paper not because of the news.
• 42:48
  Speaker 2: It was basically in order to understand what the hell
• 42:51
  Speaker 2: was going on in the community, right? Whether it was
• 42:55
  Speaker 2: movie listings, TV guide, coupons, whatever it is, that that
• 43:00
  Speaker 2: was a bigger part of the purchase than I think
• 43:04
  Speaker 2: we journalists want to admit, right? And so I think
• 43:06
  Speaker 2: that we have to get out of this phase. If
• 43:09
  Speaker 2: we want, what we have, the people that want to
• 43:12
  Speaker 2: be informed will always find a way to be informed.
• 43:15
  Speaker 2: The problem in our politics today is that we don't
• 43:18
  Speaker 2: have a way to accidentally inform people. And, you know,
• 43:23
  Speaker 2: which is the stuff they would catch. There's this great
• 43:25
  Speaker 2: study that I'm obsessed with. It involves newspapers where, and
• 43:29
  Speaker 2: it still worked, which is a couple of college academics
• 43:33
  Speaker 2: did this saw that there's a correlation that if you
• 43:35
  Speaker 2: get a newspaper delivered to your house, you're more likely
• 43:37
  Speaker 2: to vote. So they wanted to say, okay, what if
• 43:40
  Speaker 2: we just force fed a newspaper to people? Would it
• 43:42
  Speaker 2: increase that group of people's voting? And sure enough, it did.
• 43:47
  Speaker 2: They sent the paper to a whole bunch of people
• 43:48
  Speaker 2: that didn't vote in their last election. And just the
• 43:50
  Speaker 2: simple act of throwing away the newspaper at least told
• 43:54
  Speaker 2: them when the election was. And those people came out
• 43:59
  Speaker 2: in bigger numbers than those that did not receive the paper.
• 44:02
  Speaker 2: So there's something to accidentally informing people that we're missing.
• 44:07
  Speaker 1: That's something we've 100% lost. Because on a national political level,
• 44:10
  Speaker 1: for a while there, you could be accidentally informed of
• 44:12
  Speaker 1: something related to politics from Facebook or Twitter, if you
• 44:15
  Speaker 1: were one of those people who engaged with Twitter.
• 44:17
  Speaker 2: But now they've turned off the algorithm.
• 44:19
  Speaker 3: Right.
• 44:19
  Speaker 1: So now you don't get that. I think you had
• 44:21
  Speaker 1: to get the paper to know what the weather, or
• 44:23
  Speaker 1: turn on the local news, to know what the weather
• 44:25
  Speaker 1: was going to be, to know when a movie was,
• 44:27
  Speaker 1: and to know the score of the baseball game.
• 44:29
  Speaker 3: Right.
• 44:31
  Speaker 1: In turning on the newspaper and picking up the paper,
• 44:33
  Speaker 1: you were going to bump into some sort of civic information.
• 44:36
  Speaker 1: You bumped into something. That's why everyone cared about the headlines.
• 44:39
  Speaker 3: Yes.
• 44:39
  Speaker 1: We still fight about headlines all the time, but no
• 44:40
  Speaker 1: one cares about headlines anymore because no one looks– the
• 44:43
  Speaker 1: paper is not sitting on the newsstand.
• 44:44
  Speaker 2: Although now headlines matter for whether you get a YouTube
• 44:47
  Speaker 2: click or not.
• 44:48
  Speaker 1: Well, they also matter in terms of– this is a
• 44:50
  Speaker 1: fight I've– back when I was still fighting with reporters
• 44:52
  Speaker 1: that they matter more in the social era than they
• 44:54
  Speaker 1: do because people are only seeing the clip when they scroll.
• 44:57
  Speaker 1: But the thing that's interesting now is that because the internet,
• 45:01
  Speaker 1: as we commonly understand it, has collapsed– like for a while,
• 45:05
  Speaker 1: then you didn't need this. We could find all those
• 45:06
  Speaker 1: things on the internet. But because Google is such a
• 45:09
  Speaker 1: disaster right now because of AI slop and ads and
• 45:12
  Speaker 1: everything else, the world has become so much more confusing
• 45:15
  Speaker 1: that you need curated information. again, right? Which I think
• 45:19
  Speaker 1: is a lot of what's happening in independent journalism.
• 45:22
  Speaker 2: And I do think that there's a way, and again,
• 45:24
  Speaker 2: I think we know consolidation is coming. I just don't
• 45:26
  Speaker 2: know what it looks like on Substack, right? I don't
• 45:28
  Speaker 2: know what it looks like on YouTube, but it's coming
• 45:31
  Speaker 2: and that's part of, and you guys are in some ways,
• 45:34
  Speaker 2: you're planted a flag and I hope to be a consolidator.
• 45:38
  Speaker 2: That's the bottom line.
• 45:39
  Speaker 1: More of my conversation with Chuck Todd when we come back,
• 45:41
  Speaker 1: but first, if you love Pod Save America, you're fascinated
• 45:44
  Speaker 1: by politics and the media, you'll love my newsletter, The
• 45:47
  Speaker 1: Message Box. I write this newsletter to help explain what's happening,
• 45:50
  Speaker 1: give context, and help you know what you can do
• 45:53
  Speaker 1: about it. I will tell you where to donate money,
• 45:55
  Speaker 1: which campaigns to support, and how to win political arguments
• 46:00
  Speaker 1: with the people in your lives. In the months ahead,
• 46:02
  Speaker 1: I'll unpack the tactics that Democrats need to win from
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  Speaker 1: the national level to grassroots efforts in your local community
• 46:08
  Speaker 1: and offer a perspective that cuts through the chaos. If
• 46:11
  Speaker 1: you want to follow along and be part of the conversation,
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• 47:53
  Speaker 1: Well, now that you're an independent journalist, I assume you
• 47:55
  Speaker 1: can speak even more freely than you have otherwise about
• 47:58
  Speaker 1: how your former colleagues in the traditional press are doing
• 48:00
  Speaker 1: their job. What's your take on how people are covering
• 48:03
  Speaker 1: Trump right now? Are they doing a good job?
• 48:06
  Speaker 2: Well, I think it's difficult because... I just happen to
• 48:12
  Speaker 2: know many of these journalists know they don't have the
• 48:14
  Speaker 2: support of their corporate bosses. That's the big question. It's real.
• 48:20
  Speaker 2: I don't want to get into names for a variety
• 48:25
  Speaker 2: of reasons. It's obvious. We can feel it. The reporters
• 48:32
  Speaker 2: themselves are frustrated because they're not sure. It's one of
• 48:35
  Speaker 2: those moments where they're going to think and they're going
• 48:39
  Speaker 2: to look behind them and nobody's following them. right? You know,
• 48:43
  Speaker 2: I'm just, you know, it's come up quite a bit.
• 48:46
  Speaker 2: The issue when myself and Jake and a few others,
• 48:50
  Speaker 2: you know, were upset when you guys didn't allow Fox
• 48:53
  Speaker 2: into the pool for a Ken Feinberg interview. I don't
• 48:56
  Speaker 2: know if you remember that incident. And I remember one
• 49:00
  Speaker 2: of our motivations was- Oh, I do remember quite well, Chuck.
• 49:01
  Speaker 1: I do.
• 49:01
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 49:02
  Speaker 2: And right. But the point is, you know, this is
• 49:05
  Speaker 2: where it's like, I just like, we were genuine in
• 49:08
  Speaker 2: why we were fighting. It was like, the shoe's going
• 49:09
  Speaker 2: to be on the other foot. It's inevitable. And so
• 49:13
  Speaker 2: the lack of anybody coming to AP's defense has just
• 49:17
  Speaker 2: been heartbreaking to me and watching the... AP have to-
• 49:21
  Speaker 2: And are you.
• 49:22
  Speaker 1: Surprised by that? It's not surprising to me that Fox
• 49:24
  Speaker 1: has to come to their defense, but there's been no
• 49:27
  Speaker 1: attempt at collective action.
• 49:29
  Speaker 2: None. And I think the fear, of course, was that
• 49:31
  Speaker 2: the collective action wouldn't matter. And that's, I think, the
• 49:34
  Speaker 2: difficulty here, right? It's like, I'm haunted by what the
• 49:39
  Speaker 2: managing partner for Paul Weiss said when he said, look,
• 49:41
  Speaker 2: we look for allies and instead they were poaching our clients, right?
• 49:46
  Speaker 2: Look at what certain news organizations are doing. They're virtue
• 49:48
  Speaker 2: signaling on saying, well, all right, we'll call it. We'll
• 49:51
  Speaker 2: call the golf, whatever name you want us to call it.
• 49:54
  Speaker 2: And you're just like, on one hand, I understand that
• 49:58
  Speaker 2: it's your mission, that you're trying to be above this
• 50:01
  Speaker 2: and that you're not trying to get caught into this,
• 50:02
  Speaker 2: but you know, ultimately, the First Amendment's the First Amendment. Look,
• 50:06
  Speaker 2: how they kicked AP out of the pool was the issue. Look,
• 50:10
  Speaker 2: they could do what they want, but the rationale was
• 50:14
  Speaker 2: clearly unconstitutional. If you can't stand up for that basic principle,
• 50:19
  Speaker 2: then get out of journalism, right? What hill do you
• 50:23
  Speaker 2: die on? That hill. Die on that hill. If you
• 50:27
  Speaker 2: die on that hill, then it's done anyway, right? What's
• 50:30
  Speaker 2: the point? So I've been I don't think it's fair.
• 50:33
  Speaker 2: And I'll say this, I certainly think there's been plenty
• 50:37
  Speaker 2: of good individual journalism, but you can feel there's not
• 50:41
  Speaker 2: a comfort level of how do you cover this Trump
• 50:44
  Speaker 2: White House. And covering the Trump White House is hard
• 50:46
  Speaker 2: because you know the public stuff is not true. So
• 50:50
  Speaker 2: the best way to report is behind the scenes, which
• 50:52
  Speaker 2: then in itself becomes, you end up having to litigate
• 50:56
  Speaker 2: your sourcing, litigate all this. And it's like, so it
• 50:59
  Speaker 2: is both a, I think it's both easy to report
• 51:02
  Speaker 2: on Trump because everybody does talk a lot of times
• 51:06
  Speaker 2: off the record or on background or stuff like this,
• 51:08
  Speaker 2: but it is hard because of how aggressive the West
• 51:11
  Speaker 2: Wing is in essentially trying to exploit the unpopularity of
• 51:17
  Speaker 2: the traditional media.
• 51:19
  Speaker 1: Yeah, this is sort of my take on it. I
• 51:23
  Speaker 1: think a lot of individual reporters are doing a lot
• 51:25
  Speaker 1: of very good journalism and they're digging deep and they're
• 51:27
  Speaker 1: telling detailed stories about you know, the deportation plans or
• 51:32
  Speaker 1: that New York Times story that went, or the 60
• 51:34
  Speaker 1: Minutes story that went through all the Venezuelans who were
• 51:36
  Speaker 1: sent to the gulag in El Salvador. Like there's a
• 51:40
  Speaker 1: lot of very good stuff happening. There's three problems, I think,
• 51:44
  Speaker 1: with the overall coverage. One is, and this is unconscionable,
• 51:48
  Speaker 1: is what the corporate parents at like Disney and Paramount
• 51:51
  Speaker 1: are doing to basically pay off Trump for reasons that
• 51:55
  Speaker 1: have nothing to do with the journalism, but because they
• 51:57
  Speaker 1: have other business before the government. It's early stages kleptocracy.
• 52:02
  Speaker 2: I have a guest earlier this week, a specialist in this.
• 52:06
  Speaker 2: I mean, people on the right get upset at me
• 52:09
  Speaker 2: that I'm using the word, but I don't know how else,
• 52:11
  Speaker 2: what else do you call it? That inaugural fund is
• 52:14
  Speaker 2: just that.
• 52:14
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it's pay to play. We're doing pay to play.
• 52:17
  Speaker 1: I mean, essentially 60 minutes, the number one news brand
• 52:22
  Speaker 1: in all of the industry for 50 years is going to,
• 52:24
  Speaker 1: by the end of this period, probably help fund Donald
• 52:27
  Speaker 1: Trump's library so that the owners of the Paramount Corporation
• 52:29
  Speaker 1: can get billions of dollars. Like that is what's going
• 52:31
  Speaker 1: to happen. So that's one.
• 52:32
  Speaker 2: And can I just, I hate interrupting your thought, but
• 52:35
  Speaker 2: just very quick on this. Traditional media, you already have
• 52:39
  Speaker 2: alienated the right. Doing this isn't going to help you
• 52:42
  Speaker 2: with the right. And all you're going to do is
• 52:44
  Speaker 2: alienate the people that still trusted you. And now nobody's
• 52:47
  Speaker 2: going to trust anything out of those major traditional media outlets.
• 52:51
  Speaker 2: It's a huge, and can I just tell you, individual
• 52:55
  Speaker 2: members of those traditional outlets are seething over this and
• 52:58
  Speaker 2: are demoralized and depressed. And it's across the board, Dan. Anyway, sorry.
• 53:05
  Speaker 1: And I don't think the corporate parents care because as
• 53:09
  Speaker 1: the media economics have changed, the amount of money that
• 53:12
  Speaker 1: these media outlets are bringing in for the parent company
• 53:15
  Speaker 1: has gone down. And they know it is going down
• 53:19
  Speaker 1: They're in secular decline.
• 53:20
  Speaker 2: You know why I'm bitter about this? You know why
• 53:21
  Speaker 2: I'm bitter about this? Because during COVID, we were the
• 53:24
  Speaker 2: only revenue they had. And they took our revenue. We
• 53:28
  Speaker 2: all took pay cuts. They took our revenue and applied
• 53:32
  Speaker 2: it elsewhere. And then when elsewhere got, yeah, it's time
• 53:34
  Speaker 2: for media, the news divisions have to put on a raincoat,
• 53:37
  Speaker 2: but where's the pay it forward? We were there when
• 53:40
  Speaker 2: you had no revenue during COVID, brother. No sports, nothing.
• 53:45
  Speaker 2: We were the revenue and it did. The news divisions
• 53:48
  Speaker 2: generated all this sort of, it kept them afloat in
• 53:52
  Speaker 2: certain instances. So some of us individually are very bitter
• 53:56
  Speaker 2: about their behavior because it's like they have a total
• 53:58
  Speaker 2: memory loss that this is the whole reason why you
• 54:01
  Speaker 2: are conglomerate. Some things are down, but you're going to
• 54:03
  Speaker 2: have some things that are up. And then when some
• 54:05
  Speaker 2: things go down, you have other things that are up.
• 54:07
  Speaker 2: I thought that's why you wanted to be a multi-national corporation.
• 54:12
  Speaker 4: Sorry.
• 54:12
  Speaker 1: Right. It's very problematic.
• 54:14
  Speaker 2: Okay.
• 54:14
  Speaker 1: My second issue with the coverage is what you brought up,
• 54:17
  Speaker 1: that they're not sticking with the AP. I understand, and
• 54:20
  Speaker 1: I've talked to some reporters about this, that the fear
• 54:22
  Speaker 1: is that there'll be no objective journalists in anything. It'll
• 54:28
  Speaker 1: just be a bunch of bag of people. And for
• 54:31
  Speaker 1: the individual reporters, this is their livelihood. So I still
• 54:34
  Speaker 1: believe they should stand up, but the calculation is not
• 54:38
  Speaker 1: pure cowardice.
• 54:39
  Speaker 2: You know what I mean? Republican senators have told me well,
• 54:41
  Speaker 2: if I'm not there, you won't imagine who replaces me, right?
• 54:44
  Speaker 2: It's the same mindset.
• 54:45
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 54:46
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 54:46
  Speaker 1: But then they just act like that. That's right. But
• 54:48
  Speaker 1: the third thing I think is still a challenge we
• 54:50
  Speaker 1: have is I'm not sure that much of sort of–
• 54:55
  Speaker 1: I keep using the term traditional because I think mainstream
• 54:57
  Speaker 1: is a sort of a Sarah Palin-esque term that I
• 54:59
  Speaker 1: don't really love.
• 55:00
  Speaker 2: But sort of– Traditional is the fairest you can do.
• 55:03
  Speaker 2: Legacy feels negative too.
• 55:04
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 55:05
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 55:05
  Speaker 1: The traditional political press is incapable of telling– They're very
• 55:10
  Speaker 1: good at identifying the trees in Donald Trump's forest, but
• 55:13
  Speaker 1: they're incapable of describing the forest in appropriate terms. There
• 55:19
  Speaker 1: are exceptions to this. Some people do it very well.
• 55:21
  Speaker 1: Others do it less well. But we are undergoing a
• 55:25
  Speaker 1: fundamental assault on democracy as we know it, and people
• 55:29
  Speaker 1: are really struggling to describe that. in very true ways
• 55:33
  Speaker 1: for whatever reasons. And I, there are cultural reasons, there
• 55:36
  Speaker 1: are professional reasons, the reason of self-interest, but the full source.
• 55:38
  Speaker 2: I think this is the biggest dividing line among the
• 55:40
  Speaker 2: opposition to Trump is this issue that you just identified.
• 55:45
  Speaker 2: Cause I think, you know, I've always said, you know,
• 55:47
  Speaker 2: the biggest riddle we have to solve in America is
• 55:49
  Speaker 2: there's a 60% majority that would like to have an
• 55:52
  Speaker 2: alternative to Donald Trump. It's, it's great. The problem is
• 55:56
  Speaker 2: that 60% can't agree on anything.
• 55:58
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 55:58
  Speaker 2: And you have about half who believe that this is,
• 56:01
  Speaker 2: we are in a, existential moment. And you have half
• 56:04
  Speaker 2: that simply believe that no, the one party has lost
• 56:08
  Speaker 2: their mind and will be able to quote unquote revert back.
• 56:12
  Speaker 2: And I think that's the tension that you, I think
• 56:15
  Speaker 2: that tension bears out in the press. I think you
• 56:17
  Speaker 2: have some in the press that see it as a
• 56:19
  Speaker 2: existential crisis and some that view this as a Republican
• 56:23
  Speaker 2: party crisis that will go away when Trump goes away.
• 56:26
  Speaker 2: I'll be honest, I vacillate on this. I go back
• 56:29
  Speaker 2: and forth. I think the party is a kleptocracy right now.
• 56:32
  Speaker 2: I mean, just look at how Trump and the meme
• 56:34
  Speaker 2: coins and, you know, hey, you know, if you buy
• 56:36
  Speaker 2: this meme coin now, you get money here. So you
• 56:39
  Speaker 2: can't succeed in the Republican Party without paying off Trump.
• 56:42
  Speaker 2: So that is the beginnings of a kleptocracy. Are we Erdogan?
• 56:47
  Speaker 3: No.
• 56:49
  Speaker 2: Are we early stages Orban? Maybe, right? So that's when
• 56:52
  Speaker 2: I say I find myself vacillating back and forth. I
• 56:55
  Speaker 2: do think our democracy isn't going to go away tomorrow
• 56:58
  Speaker 2: because I think our local, it's too... it's too ingrained
• 57:02
  Speaker 2: in so many places, right? So that's, I think you've,
• 57:05
  Speaker 2: I always, I feel like that issue is the real tension,
• 57:10
  Speaker 2: even among those that know we're on the wrong path.
• 57:13
  Speaker 2: The question is, it's sort of.
• 57:15
  Speaker 1: It's in the party.
• 57:16
  Speaker 4: Yes.
• 57:17
  Speaker 1: Do you say you vacillate on, do you lean one
• 57:19
  Speaker 1: way or the other? I mean, it seems to me
• 57:20
  Speaker 1: that we are in a pretty bad place. Doesn't mean
• 57:23
  Speaker 1: we can't get out of it, but the direction we
• 57:25
  Speaker 1: are headed and we are only 100 days in seems
• 57:28
  Speaker 1: quite concerning.
• 57:29
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm like more devastated on an international way than
• 57:33
  Speaker 2: I am domestically. Like I can, we heal politically, we
• 57:36
  Speaker 2: can heal quickly domestically. I think we've created problems that
• 57:40
  Speaker 2: are gonna, internationally, that are gonna take a generation to rebuild.
• 57:44
  Speaker 2: And that is whether it's trust with other countries, what
• 57:50
  Speaker 2: we've done to Canada, I think is something that is
• 57:53
  Speaker 2: gonna be problematic for beyond one, you know, it's gonna
• 57:56
  Speaker 2: take America electing, you know, a Republican president that is
• 58:01
  Speaker 2: a Democratic and a Republican president back to back that
• 58:03
  Speaker 2: is so opposite of Trump. You know what I mean?
• 58:06
  Speaker 2: It's a minimum decade before we earn the trust back
• 58:09
  Speaker 2: of our key allies. I think he has launched a
• 58:14
  Speaker 2: nationalism in a lot of places, right? Nationalism out of survival,
• 58:20
  Speaker 2: the way many countries I think are going to view this.
• 58:22
  Speaker 2: And so I just So that's when I say I vacillate.
• 58:25
  Speaker 2: I think the damage internationally, I don't think people fully
• 58:28
  Speaker 2: appreciate how bad it is and how long that will
• 58:32
  Speaker 2: take to recover trust. I mean, America's been trying to
• 58:36
  Speaker 2: get trust back in Latin America for 50 years, and
• 58:39
  Speaker 2: we set ourselves back quite a... Every time we take
• 58:41
  Speaker 2: one step forward, there's usually something that puts us two
• 58:44
  Speaker 2: steps back. So that's how I vacillate, because I think
• 58:49
  Speaker 2: domestically we'll recover faster than we will internationally.
• 58:53
  Speaker 1: Earlier this month, you were talking to Chris Silliza, a
• 58:57
  Speaker 1: fellow Slipstacker and podcast host, about that. You said that
• 59:00
  Speaker 1: the supposed media cover-up of Biden's decline was a right-wing
• 59:02
  Speaker 1: manufactured right-wing premise in order to stain the media. I
• 59:06
  Speaker 1: think the idea that the media was covering it up
• 59:07
  Speaker 1: is absurd.
• 59:08
  Speaker 2: Well, that's what I get. I am angry about... That's
• 59:11
  Speaker 2: what I'm upset about. It's the idea that the media.
• 59:14
  Speaker 3: The.
• 59:14
  Speaker 2: Media is the reason why the public thought he was
• 59:17
  Speaker 2: too old. Because the media showed you him shuffling every day.
• 59:22
  Speaker 2: And the media didn't have the interviews with him and
• 59:25
  Speaker 2: would tell you. The media would show you that, hey,
• 59:27
  Speaker 2: he's using the short staircase, right? How is it that
• 59:31
  Speaker 2: Fox even had the clips to show, right? It was
• 59:34
  Speaker 2: to me. Now, were there pundits on MSNBC and CNN
• 59:40
  Speaker 2: who essentially tried to shame any member of the press
• 59:44
  Speaker 2: that would bring this up? Yes, that was true. I mean,
• 59:46
  Speaker 2: Joe Scarborough did this, right? He was very aggressive as
• 59:49
  Speaker 2: a defender of Joe Biden whenever it seemed like it
• 59:52
  Speaker 2: was necessary, whenever this would pop up. But this idea
• 59:55
  Speaker 2: that it wasn't an issue, my goodness, Dean Phillips did
• 59:58
  Speaker 2: run for president on this issue. Now, there were certain
• 1:00:02
  Speaker 2: pundits- Reportedly, he did, yes. Well, I mean, but that's,
• 1:00:06
  Speaker 2: and you're right, like, but I would argue it was,
• 1:00:08
  Speaker 2: it's the Democratic Party that's responsible for this. They're the
• 1:00:11
  Speaker 2: ones that did everything they could to, and this is
• 1:00:14
  Speaker 2: the party's fault. It, you know, the media is not
• 1:00:18
  Speaker 2: an organ of the Democratic Party, and there's too many
• 1:00:20
  Speaker 2: Democrats who wish the media was. And there are too
• 1:00:23
  Speaker 2: many people in the media who sometimes think that is
• 1:00:25
  Speaker 2: their job. And my frustration is that, look, it wasn't.
• 1:00:29
  Speaker 2: David Ignatius had a front page column that they put
• 1:00:33
  Speaker 2: on the front page when they did it that he
• 1:00:35
  Speaker 2: shouldn't run again. That column ran in the front page
• 1:00:38
  Speaker 2: of the Washington Post in October of 2023. So the
• 1:00:42
  Speaker 2: idea that somehow the media was all in cahoots is
• 1:00:46
  Speaker 2: just nonsense. Now, I know how this happened. You know
• 1:00:50
  Speaker 2: how this happened. everybody's personal interaction with Biden was good
• 1:00:53
  Speaker 2: enough when you thought the alternative was Donald J. Trump.
• 1:00:58
  Speaker 2: And if everybody had been asked the same question and
• 1:01:03
  Speaker 2: Nikki Haley was the person standing over there, there'd have
• 1:01:06
  Speaker 2: been a chorus of Democrats who would have said he
• 1:01:09
  Speaker 2: can't run for reelection.
• 1:01:12
  Speaker 1: There's a tension in what you just said there. And
• 1:01:14
  Speaker 1: I want to get back to the media coverage. But
• 1:01:15
  Speaker 1: the tension is, did they say that because... Donald Trump
• 1:01:19
  Speaker 1: is so dangerous that we can't possibly talk about how
• 1:01:23
  Speaker 1: old Joe Biden is? Or is it because Democrats thought
• 1:01:25
  Speaker 1: that Joe Biden, that Donald Trump could be beaten and
• 1:01:28
  Speaker 1: Nikki Haley could not?
• 1:01:30
  Speaker 2: You know, it's a good question, whether it's about just
• 1:01:32
  Speaker 2: simply electability or, but I do think that it goes
• 1:01:38
  Speaker 2: to one of Joe Biden's favorite expressions, don't judge me
• 1:01:41
  Speaker 2: by the almighty, judge me by the alternative, right? I
• 1:01:45
  Speaker 2: think there were plenty of Democrats who were assessing Biden's
• 1:01:48
  Speaker 2: situation based on, well, Trump's manic, Biden's slower. Okay, they
• 1:01:56
  Speaker 2: both have issues. You know what I mean? Like it
• 1:02:00
  Speaker 2: became more of a reactionary response. Like my point is,
• 1:02:04
  Speaker 2: I understand the human, you know, look, I don't wanna
• 1:02:07
  Speaker 2: violate an off the record, but Jeff Zients speak to
• 1:02:09
  Speaker 2: my class of kids a couple of weeks ago. And
• 1:02:11
  Speaker 2: of course they all asked and Jeff Zients answer off
• 1:02:14
  Speaker 2: the record was the same answer he's given on the record,
• 1:02:16
  Speaker 2: you know, which is in my dealings with him, Joe
• 1:02:19
  Speaker 2: Biden was fine, right? And if you've noticed, so many
• 1:02:21
  Speaker 2: people from that West Wing usually word it that way. Well,
• 1:02:25
  Speaker 2: in my experience, right, it was fine. Which, by the way,
• 1:02:30
  Speaker 2: both things can be true.
• 1:02:31
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I guess, let's put aside whether the media, like
• 1:02:34
  Speaker 1: there was some rumor like.
• 1:02:36
  Speaker 2: And that's why, the reason I'm upset about this is
• 1:02:38
  Speaker 2: that we know what Fox only wants, the right, they're
• 1:02:41
  Speaker 2: trying desperately to make the media part of the Democratic
• 1:02:44
  Speaker 2: Party to create distrust in legitimate journalists in order to
• 1:02:50
  Speaker 2: get their pablum believed by their viewers. So this is
• 1:02:55
  Speaker 2: why I get my back up about it. Right. This
• 1:02:57
  Speaker 2: is why I get my back up about it. It's
• 1:02:58
  Speaker 2: an intentional business strategy that, so what if the truth
• 1:03:02
  Speaker 2: isn't there? We're just trying to discredit that. And look,
• 1:03:06
  Speaker 2: I take it as a badge of honor. They get
• 1:03:07
  Speaker 2: obsessed with trying to discredit me because I think they
• 1:03:09
  Speaker 2: know I have plenty of legitimacy.
• 1:03:12
  Speaker 1: But there is another sort of conversation around Biden happening.
• 1:03:18
  Speaker 1: Alex Thompson of Axios stood up at the White House
• 1:03:20
  Speaker 1: Correspondents' Dinner this weekend where he won an award for
• 1:03:23
  Speaker 1: his coverage of Biden's age. And he said that essentially
• 1:03:27
  Speaker 1: that the media had sort of failed here, that they
• 1:03:29
  Speaker 1: had not done enough reporting on Joe Biden's mental capacity
• 1:03:36
  Speaker 1: up until prior to the debate.
• 1:03:37
  Speaker 2: Can you define media?
• 1:03:40
  Speaker 1: Well, I mean, I think he meant the people in
• 1:03:41
  Speaker 1: the room.
• 1:03:43
  Speaker 3: Right.
• 1:03:43
  Speaker 2: Look, do I think the people in the White House
• 1:03:45
  Speaker 2: press corps- And that media is my word, not Alex's,
• 1:03:47
  Speaker 2: as I'm paraphrasing. No, and that's the thing. This is
• 1:03:51
  Speaker 2: where I get, you're sort of like, well, what's the
• 1:03:54
  Speaker 2: media these days? How do you define it? Is it
• 1:03:58
  Speaker 2: the White House press corps? Yeah, I could argue that
• 1:04:01
  Speaker 2: the White House press corps didn't make this an issue,
• 1:04:05
  Speaker 2: and they could have. Where's the president today? How come
• 1:04:07
  Speaker 2: he's not doing a public event today? How come he
• 1:04:08
  Speaker 2: hasn't done a press conference today? There wasn't that so
• 1:04:12
  Speaker 2: I will I accept that that that didn't exist in
• 1:04:15
  Speaker 2: that press room and I think this is where the
• 1:04:18
  Speaker 2: Biden White House created a chill among reporters meaning if
• 1:04:22
  Speaker 2: you dared do that good luck getting your interview that
• 1:04:26
  Speaker 2: you were hoping to get with Biden or Harris etc
• 1:04:29
  Speaker 2: so there was a there was a they made it
• 1:04:32
  Speaker 2: clear there was a price to pay I think to
• 1:04:34
  Speaker 2: some reporters so yeah I do think some some pulled
• 1:04:38
  Speaker 2: their punches in that press room because they were daily
• 1:04:41
  Speaker 2: interacting with the Biden press shop.
• 1:04:43
  Speaker 1: Do you think this was, one of the other contentions
• 1:04:45
  Speaker 1: out there is that the Democratic Party covered this up?
• 1:04:49
  Speaker 1: This was like an intentional way to do it.
• 1:04:50
  Speaker 2: Well, what's their cover up? I mean, I say this
• 1:04:53
  Speaker 2: in that, was there a Parkinson's diagnosis that nobody reported on?
• 1:04:57
  Speaker 2: Do you know what I mean? Like, what's the cover up?
• 1:04:59
  Speaker 2: What I would say, forget cover up. It was obvious
• 1:05:04
  Speaker 2: that he could, it wasn't up for a second term.
• 1:05:07
  Speaker 2: He himself promised, I can't tell you how many people
• 1:05:10
  Speaker 2: who I've talked to that were on stage with him
• 1:05:13
  Speaker 2: when he said transitional president and what they all heard
• 1:05:17
  Speaker 2: and what they all believe they heard that were standing
• 1:05:19
  Speaker 2: on that stage with him. They all heard one term.
• 1:05:22
  Speaker 2: And so I think it's the people in the West Wing. Look,
• 1:05:26
  Speaker 2: I had a cabinet secretary and I said this after
• 1:05:30
  Speaker 2: the debacle of the debate because I felt like I
• 1:05:33
  Speaker 2: could share it, but it was an off the record.
• 1:05:34
  Speaker 2: I had a cabinet secretary who asked me at the
• 1:05:37
  Speaker 2: end of 22, he can't run again, right? And this
• 1:05:40
  Speaker 2: cabinet secretary, you know, and said, you know, I said,
• 1:05:43
  Speaker 2: do you ever get any FaceTime with him? He says, nope.
• 1:05:46
  Speaker 2: And it was, you know, and those stories were reported
• 1:05:51
  Speaker 2: about how cabinet secretaries don't get FaceTime with the president, right?
• 1:05:54
  Speaker 2: They limited the interactions because they wanted to limit the conversations, right?
• 1:05:58
  Speaker 2: Nobody had it hard that he wasn't available, right? It
• 1:06:02
  Speaker 2: was always just whispers or, huh, he's not, it was
• 1:06:05
  Speaker 2: what he wasn't doing that turned out to be the evidence, right?
• 1:06:09
  Speaker 2: He wasn't able to do this, or he wasn't able
• 1:06:11
  Speaker 2: to do that, or he wasn't able, I mean, the
• 1:06:12
  Speaker 2: Super Bowl interview, which again, plenty of, this is why
• 1:06:16
  Speaker 2: I'm like, it's not as if it was hidden. This
• 1:06:19
  Speaker 2: is why I take this idea that it's such this
• 1:06:22
  Speaker 2: black and white, that the media was part of the
• 1:06:24
  Speaker 2: coverup versus never, please, all the conversation around this, wow,
• 1:06:28
  Speaker 2: you don't even want to do a Super Bowl interview?
• 1:06:30
  Speaker 2: Is it that difficult? Are you that concerned, right? Like,
• 1:06:34
  Speaker 2: it was all out there in the ether. That's why,
• 1:06:36
  Speaker 2: The fault belongs to the Democratic Party. It's Joe Biden.
• 1:06:39
  Speaker 2: It's Joe Biden. It's Nancy Pelosi. It's Chuck Schumer. It's
• 1:06:42
  Speaker 2: Ron Klain. It's Jeff Zients. It's everybody that was around him. And,
• 1:06:46
  Speaker 2: you know, I do think that it's a weaker defense.
• 1:06:49
  Speaker 2: Like I saw Rahm Emanuel coming out and saying, well,
• 1:06:51
  Speaker 2: I said, I told people. I don't think that's going
• 1:06:54
  Speaker 2: to come across very well, by the way. I don't
• 1:06:57
  Speaker 2: know if you saw those comments that he made.
• 1:06:59
  Speaker 1: There are a lot of people now who are out
• 1:07:00
  Speaker 1: there saying they told me. I did.
• 1:07:02
  Speaker 2: I did.
• 1:07:02
  Speaker 1: A lot of people out there saying that they told people.
• 1:07:04
  Speaker 1: The thing that I try to tell people is, based
• 1:07:07
  Speaker 1: on my many years in Washington, is that Washington, D.C.
• 1:07:09
  Speaker 1: doesn't do conspiracies. It only does collective failures. And there
• 1:07:12
  Speaker 1: was no meeting where people decided to get together and
• 1:07:13
  Speaker 1: do this. It's just a collection of people making the
• 1:07:16
  Speaker 1: wrong decision over and over again.
• 1:07:18
  Speaker 2: Let me ask you. Do you guys feel like you
• 1:07:20
  Speaker 2: guys should have– should you guys have used your voice
• 1:07:23
  Speaker 2: more to drive them out of the race?
• 1:07:25
  Speaker 1: Yeah. We've talked about this. We've talked about this. You know,
• 1:07:28
  Speaker 1: I went– I had not– if I look at myself self-critically,
• 1:07:32
  Speaker 1: I– had not spoken or seen Biden since... He called
• 1:07:37
  Speaker 1: me right before the election. I talked to him for
• 1:07:40
  Speaker 1: like five, 10 minutes. And he was great. And I
• 1:07:42
  Speaker 1: interviewed him before the election. He was totally fine. There
• 1:07:44
  Speaker 1: was not even a question there. And I talked to
• 1:07:46
  Speaker 1: a bunch of people who had gone to work on
• 1:07:48
  Speaker 1: the campaign who had told me, he's great. Then we
• 1:07:50
  Speaker 1: get to the White House and I didn't see him
• 1:07:52
  Speaker 1: again until White House Correspondents Center weekend 2024. And he was...
• 1:07:58
  Speaker 1: I was at a White House reception. And he was... bad.
• 1:08:02
  Speaker 1: He was quite bad in it. And he told the
• 1:08:04
  Speaker 1: same story twice. And he just seemed mostly old. In
• 1:08:08
  Speaker 1: no way did I look at that and say, that
• 1:08:10
  Speaker 1: man cannot do the job of president. I had real
• 1:08:13
  Speaker 1: concerns that he could not do it for four more years.
• 1:08:16
  Speaker 1: But your concern, you look at that, if something with
• 1:08:20
  Speaker 1: my perspective is, man, that's a guy who's going to
• 1:08:21
  Speaker 1: struggle on the campaign trail in a presidential campaign. But
• 1:08:24
  Speaker 1: I also thought to myself, well, it's Friday. This is
• 1:08:26
  Speaker 1: a super bizarre event the night before the White House
• 1:08:28
  Speaker 1: Correspondents' Center. I knew he was coming from speech prep
• 1:08:31
  Speaker 1: and going back to speech prep on a Friday evening.
• 1:08:34
  Speaker 1: Even Barack Obama was not a great communicator on a
• 1:08:37
  Speaker 1: Friday evening. And so I trusted the people who I
• 1:08:42
  Speaker 1: talked to who said he was fine. And I also believed,
• 1:08:45
  Speaker 1: and I said this at the time after the Robert
• 1:08:46
  Speaker 1: Hur report came out, is that if Biden really was
• 1:08:49
  Speaker 1: having these mental lapses all over town, everyone would know it.
• 1:08:53
  Speaker 2: Well, and now you're getting... you know, reporters have to
• 1:08:55
  Speaker 2: have sources to report stuff. Yeah. That's another problem, right?
• 1:08:59
  Speaker 2: Is that you might have a, like, boy, this looks
• 1:09:01
  Speaker 2: one way. And every time you try to report it out,
• 1:09:05
  Speaker 2: you got a different answer, right?
• 1:09:08
  Speaker 1: And because he has obviously had good moments and bad moments. Like,
• 1:09:11
  Speaker 1: do I, you know, I often, my view, we talked
• 1:09:14
  Speaker 1: a lot on this podcast before the debate about how
• 1:09:16
  Speaker 1: his age was a huge problem. I had a lot
• 1:09:18
  Speaker 1: of thoughts that I shared publicly and privately about things
• 1:09:20
  Speaker 1: that he should do to address that. Should I have
• 1:09:22
  Speaker 1: been more concerned that he wasn't doing them? Probably. Right.
• 1:09:25
  Speaker 1: Like I can argue.
• 1:09:26
  Speaker 2: Look, it's all obvious now, you know, and I, and I,
• 1:09:29
  Speaker 2: you know, it's, you know, I, I, I got ridiculed
• 1:09:33
  Speaker 2: for even hosting Dean Phillips for a podcast, you know,
• 1:09:36
  Speaker 2: and yet I was like, oh, great. I guess I've,
• 1:09:37
  Speaker 2: you know, but I was already, look, I was in
• 1:09:39
  Speaker 2: a weird position. I was post meet the press. So
• 1:09:42
  Speaker 2: I was trying not to compete with, with bookings and
• 1:09:45
  Speaker 2: other stuff. So, I was in a weird spot, you know,
• 1:09:47
  Speaker 2: to not, I was sort of a walking ghost, right?
• 1:09:51
  Speaker 2: So I had to be careful, but it was, you know,
• 1:09:55
  Speaker 2: it's one of those things where I think news organizations
• 1:09:58
  Speaker 2: were trying to get interviews with the president. And you
• 1:10:03
  Speaker 2: can't tell me that didn't have an impact on what
• 1:10:05
  Speaker 2: might be said publicly versus what you might know privately.
• 1:10:08
  Speaker 1: Which is so funny because one, Biden wasn't doing very
• 1:10:10
  Speaker 1: many interviews and two, It's not like a Biden interview
• 1:10:13
  Speaker 1: was a giant rating spoon in the way a Trump
• 1:10:15
  Speaker 1: interview in 2017 was or an Obama interview in 2009.
• 1:10:17
  Speaker 2: But can I just tell you, as a journalist, I
• 1:10:21
  Speaker 2: hate– I know you didn't mean it this way. I
• 1:10:24
  Speaker 2: hate the idea that you think that someone tries to
• 1:10:26
  Speaker 2: get an interview because they might think it's good– I
• 1:10:28
  Speaker 2: just want to get an interview with Joe Biden. Well,
• 1:10:29
  Speaker 2: I think your bosses think that. They may think that.
• 1:10:31
  Speaker 2: I just wanted a Joe Biden interview because I'm trying
• 1:10:33
  Speaker 2: to– there's a whole bunch of questions I have for him.
• 1:10:36
  Speaker 2: I really think most journalists think that way. And in fact,
• 1:10:39
  Speaker 2: are disappointed if other viewers aren't as interested, right? Like
• 1:10:42
  Speaker 2: it's more the opposite. They hope viewers are as interested
• 1:10:44
  Speaker 2: in something as they are. But anyway, I just– it
• 1:10:48
  Speaker 2: is– a lot of us don't think of the ratings
• 1:10:51
  Speaker 2: thing first.
• 1:10:51
  Speaker 1: Yeah, that's fair. That's fair.
• 1:10:53
  Speaker 2: I just– I'm not saying there aren't other bookings that
• 1:10:55
  Speaker 2: are that way.
• 1:10:56
  Speaker 1: Your network bosses were thinking that way.
• 1:10:58
  Speaker 2: No, and you're not wrong.
• 1:10:59
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 1:11:00
  Speaker 2: Anyone's boss, not just my network. Yeah.
• 1:11:03
  Speaker 1: Let's– just because you brought that– because we talked about
• 1:11:05
  Speaker 1: presidential interviews. This is him, I thought.
• 1:11:06
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 1:11:07
  Speaker 1: Do you think, I was watching Terry Moran's interview with
• 1:11:10
  Speaker 1: Donald Trump in the Oval Office on Tuesday night about
• 1:11:13
  Speaker 1: the 100th day. Do you think it is possible, and
• 1:11:16
  Speaker 1: you've interviewed him, but do you think it's possible to
• 1:11:17
  Speaker 1: do a good, productive, constructive interview with Donald Trump?
• 1:11:23
  Speaker 2: It all depends on what you're trying to do. I mean,
• 1:11:26
  Speaker 2: I'll tell you the interview that I never got to
• 1:11:28
  Speaker 2: conduct with him that I haven't seen anybody do that
• 1:11:30
  Speaker 2: I actually still want to do with him, which is,
• 1:11:34
  Speaker 2: you know, the problem with him So for instance, the
• 1:11:37
  Speaker 2: third term nonsense. If you ask him, he's going to
• 1:11:41
  Speaker 2: play with the topic, almost the way a cat plays
• 1:11:44
  Speaker 2: with a dead mouse. In fact, I promise you, if
• 1:11:50
  Speaker 2: I phrased a question like the following to Donald Trump,
• 1:11:54
  Speaker 2: why is Japan a country? How come we don't own Japan?
• 1:11:58
  Speaker 2: We bombed them. We beat them in World War II.
• 1:12:01
  Speaker 2: You know what Trump would probably say? You're right. And
• 1:12:05
  Speaker 2: you could create a headline, Donald Trump thinks Japan ought
• 1:12:07
  Speaker 2: to be American territory, right? Is he really serious about it?
• 1:12:11
  Speaker 2: Or is it like the movie Anchorman where he'll accept
• 1:12:14
  Speaker 2: any premise so you can be careful? So I do
• 1:12:16
  Speaker 2: think there's a responsibility as a journalist that, you know,
• 1:12:19
  Speaker 2: be careful asking something that feels like a shiny metal
• 1:12:22
  Speaker 2: object that might make you feel like you get a
• 1:12:24
  Speaker 2: cheap headline that actually isn't really that substantive, like Trump
• 1:12:29
  Speaker 2: third term. I'm sorry. I just, I, you know. I'm
• 1:12:33
  Speaker 2: not there on Trump's third term the way some other
• 1:12:35
  Speaker 2: people are. But here's what I wish would be asked
• 1:12:40
  Speaker 2: to him in the interview, which is, why'd you choke
• 1:12:44
  Speaker 2: on January 6th? So what I would do is, I
• 1:12:48
  Speaker 2: think the trick to interviewing Donald Trump is to hand
• 1:12:51
  Speaker 2: him rope. I think the mistake that I've made and
• 1:12:55
  Speaker 2: many others make is to try to bring him into
• 1:12:59
  Speaker 2: your reality, when maybe you're better off helping the viewer
• 1:13:04
  Speaker 2: see his reality.
• 1:13:05
  Speaker 1: I like that. So you know what this means? Donald Trump,
• 1:13:08
  Speaker 1: come on Chuck Todd cast. I, you.
• 1:13:10
  Speaker 2: Know, I don't think it's a 0% chance. You know
• 1:13:13
  Speaker 2: how they operate. I, you know, I mean, he, he
• 1:13:15
  Speaker 2: believes he can handle any interview and if you get,
• 1:13:19
  Speaker 2: and his staff, if he wants to do something, his
• 1:13:21
  Speaker 2: staff will never stop him.
• 1:13:22
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 1:13:23
  Speaker 1: Well, I think that that is a great place to
• 1:13:25
  Speaker 1: end it. I, I would love to see you do
• 1:13:27
  Speaker 1: that interview with Donald Trump on your podcast. Chuck Todd,
• 1:13:31
  Speaker 1: Thanks for being on Pod Save America. Great to talk
• 1:13:33
  Speaker 1: to you as always.
• 1:13:34
  Speaker 2: It's great to talk to you, Pfeiffer. I love it.
• 1:13:36
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