Latest / Bennett Thrasher Presents: Beyond The Ledger / More Than the Law: Mark Melton on Leadership, Entrepreneurship & Impact

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More Than the Law: Mark Melton on Leadership, Entrepreneurship & Impact · Bennett Thrasher Presents: Beyond The Ledger

• 0:09
  SPEAKER_00: Welcome to Beyond the Ledger.
• 0:10
  SPEAKER_00: I'm your host, Sharday Layfield.
• 0:12
  SPEAKER_00: Today's episode is part of the Growth Exchange, our special series featuring entrepreneurs, innovators, and business leaders turning their experiences and expertise into meaningful impact.
• 0:24
  SPEAKER_00: Leading today's conversation is Emily Ackerman, Business Development Director for Bennett Thrasher's Southwest Region.
• 0:29
  SPEAKER_00: Alongside Mark Melton, partner and co-chair of the Tax Executive Compensation and Benefits Practice Group at Holland and Night.
• 0:38
  SPEAKER_00: Mark's story exceeds well beyond his legal career.
• 0:41
  SPEAKER_00: He's an attorney, entrepreneur, and founder of the Dallas Eviction Advocacy Center, combining business leadership with a passion for creating meaningful change.
• 0:50
  SPEAKER_00: Today, Emily and Mark will explore the experiences that shaped his journey, lessons learned along the way, and his perspective on what's ahead.
• 0:59
  SPEAKER_00: Now let's hand it over to Emily.
• 1:03
  SPEAKER_03: Hi.
• 1:04
  SPEAKER_03: Hi.
• 1:05
  SPEAKER_03: This is so exciting.
• 1:07
  SPEAKER_03: Mark, I'm really excited to have you here because I've gotten to know you beyond your impressive resume.
• 1:12
  SPEAKER_03: And I think your story is one that people need to hear.
• 1:14
  SPEAKER_03: And you've built an incredible career in tax law.
• 1:17
  SPEAKER_03: You've taken the entrepreneurial approach to growing and leading.
• 1:21
  SPEAKER_03: And then there's the work you've done with the DEAC, which we will get to.
• 1:25
  SPEAKER_03: Um, but it shows a completely different side of the story and the impact in the community you're making.
• 1:29
  SPEAKER_03: So today we're going to get into all of it, the wins, the challenges, and what has shaped you along the way.
• 1:36
  SPEAKER_03: And knowing you, whatever big idea you're already thinking about next, it's going to be amazing.
• 1:40
  SPEAKER_03: And so welcome to the growth exchange.
• 1:43
  SPEAKER_03: We're going to dive right into it.
• 1:45
  SPEAKER_03: So I already know that your resume is very impressive.
• 1:48
  SPEAKER_03: And I know that there's a much better story behind it.
• 1:51
  SPEAKER_03: Where would you like to start about Mark?
• 1:54
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, well, maybe I'll introduce myself first.
• 1:57
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 1:57
  SPEAKER_01: So I'm Mark Melton.
• 1:59
  SPEAKER_01: Uh I'm the head of tax for Hall in the Night, based here in Dallas.
• 2:03
  SPEAKER_01: Uh so I run a group of about 85 tax lawyers across the country.
• 2:08
  SPEAKER_01: And uh, you know, personally, my practice really focuses on private equity, MA.
• 2:13
  SPEAKER_01: I do a lot of readwork, a lot of real estate joint ventures, a lot of securitization work these days.
• 2:19
  SPEAKER_01: Um I think at this point, anything that's too wild and crazy that no one else wants to touch, I get stuck with that.
• 2:25
  SPEAKER_01: So it keeps things interesting.
• 2:27
  SPEAKER_01: But, you know, background, I think the interesting part you want to hear.
• 2:31
  SPEAKER_01: Uh I did not start off as a lawyer.
• 2:35
  SPEAKER_01: So I would always tell everyone I was uh born just like everyone else, naked and crying.
• 2:39
  SPEAKER_03: Where were you born naked and crying?
• 2:41
  SPEAKER_01: In Tulsa, Oklahoma.
• 2:42
  SPEAKER_01: Tulsa.
• 2:43
  SPEAKER_01: Mm-hmm.
• 2:44
  SPEAKER_01: And uh, you know, I grew up in a nice family and everything was fine.
• 2:47
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but I didn't go to college.
• 2:50
  SPEAKER_01: I got married and had two kids immediately out of high school.
• 2:54
  SPEAKER_01: And um things were going okay, and this company I worked for decided to commit a little bond fraud.
• 3:00
  SPEAKER_02: Oh.
• 3:01
  SPEAKER_01: Um this was this was like pre-Enron, so it was before it was cool.
• 3:05
  SPEAKER_03: Boy.
• 3:06
  SPEAKER_01: And um so they laid off all 4,000 employees, and I found myself suddenly unemployed in a pretty bad place.
• 3:14
  SPEAKER_01: So I uh you know hung on for a couple months until we just finally ran out of money, we got evicted from our home, uh, lost everything, and we just packed up the kids in the one car that didn't get repossessed, and uh we just drove south one day.
• 3:30
  SPEAKER_01: And so uh we just showed up in Dallas with whatever we could carry and didn't have any place to go and no job and no plan.
• 3:38
  SPEAKER_01: I just thought Dallas had big highways and big buildings, and you know, naive young Mark Melton thought that must equate to opportunity.
• 3:47
  SPEAKER_01: Um and that turned out to be true.
• 3:49
  SPEAKER_01: Um so we just kind of arrived on the scene and you know, from there was fortunate to run into some good mentors and people that encouraged me to, you know, make better decisions and to go to school.
• 4:01
  SPEAKER_01: And I started off at the junior college and went to UTA and ended up um going to night school at SOB Infair Law School, and somehow ended up here.
• 4:13
  SPEAKER_01: So it's been an interesting journey.
• 4:15
  SPEAKER_03: Now you mentioned in this story when you arrived in Dallas, you met a few mentors.
• 4:21
  SPEAKER_03: How did you meet these mentors?
• 4:23
  SPEAKER_01: Usually I cold called them.
• 4:25
  SPEAKER_03: Really?
• 4:25
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 4:26
  SPEAKER_01: Um, you know, probably the most impactful scene if my life was a movie.
• 4:33
  SPEAKER_01: Um I I had gotten this job um in North Dallas working for this oil and gas company at a boiler room selling oil and gas investments that in hindsight, um knowing what I know now, may not have been perfectly legit.
• 4:50
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but the statute of limitations is run, so I I feel comfortable talking about it now.
• 4:55
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 4:56
  SPEAKER_01: Um, you know, I was 21 years old, just dialing for dollars.
• 5:00
  SPEAKER_01: Sure.
• 5:01
  SPEAKER_01: My mom calls one day and she said that she had just gone to a network marketing event of all things in Tulsa, and that she had met this guy um from Dallas who she thought seemed kind of wealthy.
• 5:13
  SPEAKER_01: And she was like, You should call this guy and just see if he can help you or give you a better job or you know, whatever whatever rich people do for poor people.
• 5:21
  SPEAKER_01: And uh so I thought, what the hell?
• 5:23
  SPEAKER_01: I'm just cold calling people anyway.
• 5:24
  SPEAKER_01: And so I looked the guy up in the yellow pages and uh called his office and sweet con my way through the receptionists, got him on the phone, and just said, Hey, I'm 21 years old, I've lost my way.
• 5:38
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I understand you've had a lot of success.
• 5:41
  SPEAKER_01: Would you think it's possible I could just come share my story and hear yours?
• 5:44
  SPEAKER_01: Because I'd I'd like to hear how you got where you are.
• 5:47
  SPEAKER_01: And he um actually agreed to the meeting, and so he sets a meeting, and I go to his office, and it's this palatial, like half a floor kind of you know, big office, bigger in my apartment.
• 6:01
  SPEAKER_01: And um so he talks to me for about an hour, and he said, You don't have any college education?
• 6:07
  SPEAKER_01: I said, No.
• 6:08
  SPEAKER_01: And he said, No trade skills, and I was like, No.
• 6:11
  SPEAKER_01: Um he said, Well, son, I'm sorry to tell you, but you know, I don't really have a whole lot of use for you, and there's not much you can do.
• 6:19
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, but what you should do is go enroll yourself in school and educate yourself because you seem like a smart guy, and I bet you could do something with that.
• 6:27
  SPEAKER_01: And so I I left kind of equally, you know, frustrated and pissed off.
• 6:33
  SPEAKER_01: Um But I took what he said to heart.
• 6:36
  SPEAKER_01: And that night had a conversation with my wife, and we decided that we would both go back to school and enroll at the two-year college and started working our way up from there.
• 6:45
  SPEAKER_01: And um, you know, eight years later I called him back.
• 6:49
  SPEAKER_03: Oh my gosh.
• 6:50
  SPEAKER_01: And um actually I sent him an email and I said, I don't know if you remember me, but we had this conversation in your office eight years ago.
• 6:57
  SPEAKER_01: Here's what's happened.
• 6:58
  SPEAKER_01: I've finished law school, I went to work for a big international law firm.
• 7:02
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and he immediately responded and said, I do remember you.
• 7:06
  SPEAKER_02: Wow.
• 7:07
  SPEAKER_01: And um, let's go have lunch at the petroleum club next week and catch up.
• 7:13
  SPEAKER_01: And so we ended up having this relationship that kind of you know moved forward and he hired me to do work for his companies.
• 7:19
  SPEAKER_01: Wow.
• 7:20
  SPEAKER_01: Um and the story gets even better.
• 7:22
  SPEAKER_01: And by the way, the the man's name is Glenn Simmons.
• 7:25
  SPEAKER_01: So you might have heard of Harold Simmons.
• 7:26
  SPEAKER_01: He's kind of a popular guy around town, or at least was before he passed on.
• 7:32
  SPEAKER_01: Um so 20 years later, um, Harold and Glenn have both since died.
• 7:40
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and we'll get into the nonprofit we're gonna do in a little while, but I've had gone to meet with Harold's daughter, Lisa Simmons, who runs their family foundation.
• 7:51
  SPEAKER_01: And uh I go to the office, which is the same office building, and I go up the elevator, and the perception just walks me down the same maze of hallways, and I end up in the exact same room, the office that I had met Glenn Simmons in 20 years earlier.
• 8:04
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, how funny.
• 8:05
  SPEAKER_01: That they have now turned into a library since he passed.
• 8:09
  SPEAKER_01: And so I'm waiting for Lisa to walk in.
• 8:11
  SPEAKER_01: I'm walking around the room, and on the bookshelf is this framed poem that says something about you should make time to mentor people because you never know what they're gonna do with Moan of mentorship.
• 8:26
  SPEAKER_01: And and it was this full circle moment where I was like, man, that that was that was me.
• 8:31
  SPEAKER_01: Like I I was a direct beneficiary of that philosophy in this very room 20 years earlier, mere feet away from where I was standing, right?
• 8:39
  SPEAKER_01: It's like prophetic.
• 8:40
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it was it was a really interesting moment um to reflect on.
• 8:45
  SPEAKER_03: Oh, I bet.
• 8:46
  SPEAKER_03: And the thing about law school too is when you when you graduate and you join law school, there's a bunch of different avenues with law that you could have taken.
• 8:55
  SPEAKER_03: You could have done bankruptcy, you could have done IP, you could have done zoning.
• 9:00
  SPEAKER_03: Why tax law?
• 9:03
  SPEAKER_01: You know, my um trajectory to tax was not intentional.
• 9:06
  SPEAKER_01: Like most things in my life, I just fell into it.
• 9:09
  SPEAKER_01: Um in college, I was going pretty quickly.
• 9:13
  SPEAKER_01: And my wife still had one more year before she would graduate.
• 9:16
  SPEAKER_01: So I had this kind of year before I could go to law school with nothing to do.
• 9:20
  SPEAKER_01: And so I went and talked to the counselor, and she said, well, just get a master's degree while you're here, and we have this program where you can transfer credits, and you so you can either do it in accounting, which was my undergraduate degree, or you could do it in tax.
• 9:33
  SPEAKER_01: And I I didn't know enough to ask any questions, and so I just said, eh, I already have an undergraduate degree in accounting, so I'll do the tax and broaden my horizons.
• 9:43
  SPEAKER_01: And that was the whole thought process, and it took 15 seconds.
• 9:47
  SPEAKER_01: So I ended up getting a master's degree in tax, um, ended up working for a little accounting firm at Fort Worth for one tax season before I went to law school.
• 9:56
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and then I responded to this monster.com ad one day that was one sentence that said interesting position for the right tax person.
• 10:05
  SPEAKER_01: That was it.
• 10:06
  SPEAKER_01: And I thought, what the hell?
• 10:07
  SPEAKER_01: I'm I'm applying everywhere else.
• 10:08
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 10:09
  SPEAKER_01: Um and it turned out to be Lone Star Funds.
• 10:12
  SPEAKER_03: Oh, be Lone Star.
• 10:13
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 10:14
  SPEAKER_01: So I I I get an interview and um and they ended up hiring me at an entry-level tax position.
• 10:21
  SPEAKER_01: Wow.
• 10:22
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, Lone Star.
• 10:23
  SPEAKER_01: And so for the next four years, I worked at Lone Star during the day in their tax department.
• 10:26
  SPEAKER_01: I went to law school at night at SMU.
• 10:28
  SPEAKER_01: And so by the time I graduated law school, I had, you know, five years of actually really sophisticated high-end international tax planning experience.
• 10:38
  SPEAKER_01: Um and I remember having lunch one day with managing partner of the firm that I ended up going to, who he was a tax lawyer.
• 10:46
  SPEAKER_01: And we're having lunch, and I I told him, I said, you know, I've got all this great tax experience, but if I was ever going to switch gears and become a litigator, which I'm also interested in, now seems like the time to do it.
• 10:59
  SPEAKER_01: And he looked straight across the table at me and he said, Mark, any asshole can be a litigator.
• 11:06
  SPEAKER_01: Um, not everyone can be a tax lawyer.
• 11:09
  SPEAKER_01: And that's a quote.
• 11:11
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and so his suggestion was go be a tax lawyer if you ever change your mind.
• 11:15
  SPEAKER_01: You can just switch and become a litigator, that's easy enough.
• 11:18
  SPEAKER_01: But you can't do it the other way.
• 11:19
  SPEAKER_03: No.
• 11:20
  SPEAKER_01: So um, so that's how I became a tax lawyer.
• 11:23
  SPEAKER_03: I love it.
• 11:24
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 11:24
  SPEAKER_03: And so at some point you went from being a great lawyer to an entrepreneur and thinking like a builder.
• 11:32
  SPEAKER_03: When did that entrepreneurial side kick in for you?
• 11:36
  SPEAKER_01: I think I was entrepreneurial or an entrepreneur first.
• 11:40
  SPEAKER_03: Really?
• 11:41
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 11:41
  SPEAKER_01: Um I've always have been kind of entrepreneurial.
• 11:45
  SPEAKER_01: In fact, when I was 15, I went to work at one of those kiosks in the mall selling pagers and cell phones.
• 11:50
  SPEAKER_02: Nice.
• 11:51
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 11:52
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and I started to notice that the company would make all this money, they would sell the pager, and then they would bill the customer eight bucks a month for the service.
• 12:00
  SPEAKER_01: And so you collect a few thousand customers and you got this nice residual income.
• 12:05
  SPEAKER_01: So I I put on my Sunday best and I had my mom drive me to American paging in Tulsa.
• 12:12
  SPEAKER_01: And I walked in at 15 years old, or maybe 16 at the time, uh, uh and said, I'd like a reseller contract.
• 12:21
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and I lied to the guy and told him I was 18 so that I could sign the contract.
• 12:26
  SPEAKER_01: And I bought five pagers with all the money I had in my pocket as my initial inventory.
• 12:31
  SPEAKER_01: And so he gave me the contract.
• 12:33
  SPEAKER_02: Wow.
• 12:33
  SPEAKER_01: And then every day after school, I would cold call people in the yellow pages and sell them pages for their business accounts.
• 12:40
  SPEAKER_01: And I think, you know, after a couple of years, I had more than a thousand customers.
• 12:45
  SPEAKER_03: Wow.
• 12:45
  SPEAKER_01: And so uh, you know, I was putting myself through high school anyway.
• 12:49
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 12:50
  SPEAKER_01: Uh without really needing to work outside of my little business.
• 12:53
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so I've always been kind of entrepreneurial.
• 12:57
  SPEAKER_01: Uh and I think when you become a lawyer, a lot of people think uh you're now a professional and somehow that's something different.
• 13:04
  SPEAKER_01: Sure.
• 13:04
  SPEAKER_01: And and my position on that has always been that that's nonsense, people tell themselves to feel important.
• 13:12
  SPEAKER_01: Uh the reality is I'm just a salesman with a law degree.
• 13:15
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 13:16
  SPEAKER_01: And uh and if I don't treat my profession as a sales job, uh I'm probably not gonna be very busy.
• 13:24
  SPEAKER_01: No.
• 13:24
  SPEAKER_01: Um, because you can take two paths in professional services.
• 13:27
  SPEAKER_01: You could be you can be the sales guy and have a book of business, which brings with it power um and autonomy.
• 13:36
  SPEAKER_01: Or you can be the guy that just works for somebody else and does their busy work.
• 13:39
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 13:40
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and you're at their mercy.
• 13:42
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 13:42
  SPEAKER_01: And so, and you know, and there's a need for both kinds of people.
• 13:45
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I I run this tax group and I tell people all the time you can't you can't discount a person because they're not going to be a great business developer.
• 13:53
  SPEAKER_01: Sure.
• 13:54
  SPEAKER_01: Because I need the business developer people out in the community developing business, and I need someone at the office doing all that work.
• 14:00
  SPEAKER_01: They're technical they're generating.
• 14:03
  SPEAKER_01: Um so there's they're both very important and they're they're symbiotic, and one is not necessarily better than the other, but one pays a lot more than the other.
• 14:12
  SPEAKER_03: Sure.
• 14:12
  SPEAKER_03: Now, a lot of your clients at Hall in the night are CEOs, founders, and investors.
• 14:18
  SPEAKER_03: What are you hearing from them right now?
• 14:20
  SPEAKER_03: Meaning, like what are they worried about?
• 14:22
  SPEAKER_03: What are they coming to you and talking about?
• 14:24
  SPEAKER_03: Are they excited about anything on the horizon?
• 14:27
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, usually when I talk to people, they're pretty happy because they're about to do a transaction.
• 14:34
  SPEAKER_01: Um, they're gonna bring on some new investors or they're gonna sell the company or something big is is about to happen.
• 14:40
  SPEAKER_01: And the thing that they're most worried about is not screwing it up.
• 14:44
  SPEAKER_03: Yes.
• 14:44
  SPEAKER_01: Um they had they can see it, it's right there.
• 14:47
  SPEAKER_03: The golden nugget.
• 14:48
  SPEAKER_01: That's right, and make sure that that it gets to the to the finish line.
• 14:51
  SPEAKER_03: Oh, yeah.
• 14:52
  SPEAKER_01: And so, you know, then that's the biggest thing that I that I really see.
• 14:56
  SPEAKER_01: On the other side of it, you we talked to a lot of founders that are more early in the process.
• 15:00
  SPEAKER_01: And they're trying to set themselves up for success, and we help them structure their business so that you know it's qualified for QSBS or something like that.
• 15:08
  SPEAKER_01: Or whatever issue that their structure requires.
• 15:12
  SPEAKER_01: Um and so you know, they're they're worried about the things they don't know.
• 15:16
  SPEAKER_03: Well, you can't Google.
• 15:18
  SPEAKER_01: That's right.
• 15:18
  SPEAKER_01: And you and you can you can Google a lot now.
• 15:20
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 15:21
  SPEAKER_01: And you know, the AI tools are getting better and better.
• 15:24
  SPEAKER_01: Um, you know, and we use them.
• 15:26
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 15:26
  SPEAKER_01: Right?
• 15:27
  SPEAKER_01: So it's not like this is just something out there on the internet.
• 15:30
  SPEAKER_01: These are important tools.
• 15:31
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 15:32
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but there's still the the thing that AI can't produce is judgment and experience.
• 15:37
  SPEAKER_03: Critical thinking.
• 15:38
  SPEAKER_01: And so yeah, and so you know, it it shortens my work a lot.
• 15:42
  SPEAKER_03: Oh, from a current work and busyness.
• 15:44
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 15:45
  SPEAKER_01: It's great.
• 15:46
  SPEAKER_01: But um anyway, I'm just I I'm there to help them understand the things that they don't know.
• 15:53
  SPEAKER_03: For sure.
• 15:54
  SPEAKER_01: And just shine a light on that.
• 15:55
  SPEAKER_03: Now being great at your craft and actually building a successful practice are two different things.
• 16:00
  SPEAKER_03: And you talked about how there's business developers and there's the technical people.
• 16:04
  SPEAKER_03: But what have you learned about growing a business that law school definitely doesn't prepare you for?
• 16:10
  SPEAKER_01: Most of it.
• 16:12
  SPEAKER_01: Law school, law school gives you a bunch of defined terms and and their meanings.
• 16:17
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 16:17
  SPEAKER_01: Um, it doesn't teach you strategy, it doesn't teach you human nature.
• 16:22
  SPEAKER_01: Um and and those are the important things.
• 16:26
  SPEAKER_01: The life skills.
• 16:27
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, if you look at people that have been very successful, uh, even if you discount some of the things that they were born with, right?
• 16:35
  SPEAKER_01: A lot of people are born with capital or things like that, or just access to people that help them.
• 16:40
  SPEAKER_01: Uh if you get rid of all of that, right, most successful people are risk takers.
• 16:46
  SPEAKER_01: Um and I think, especially in in accounting and tax, right, we're kind of trained to not be risk takers, to be conservative in our approach.
• 16:54
  SPEAKER_01: Uh but I think anytime you're gonna build a business, um, you you have to take appropriate risks.
• 17:01
  SPEAKER_01: Um, you know, and even from my perspective, building a tax practice, you know, that's a national brand.
• 17:06
  SPEAKER_01: Um, you know, there there are still risks that you have to take, right?
• 17:11
  SPEAKER_01: Am I gonna hire this person?
• 17:13
  SPEAKER_01: What if what if they're not as good as I think they are?
• 17:15
  SPEAKER_01: Or they're not as good as they look on paper.
• 17:17
  SPEAKER_01: Sure.
• 17:18
  SPEAKER_01: Um, or what if I hire too many people and there's not enough work to keep them busy?
• 17:22
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 17:23
  SPEAKER_01: Um, you know, there or or the inverse.
• 17:25
  SPEAKER_01: I hire too few people and then there's more work.
• 17:28
  SPEAKER_01: There's always a there's always an issue.
• 17:30
  SPEAKER_01: And um I think a lot of people suffer from a paralysis that comes with overthinking those kind of things.
• 17:38
  SPEAKER_01: And so I have a tendency um to mitigate risk on the backside.
• 17:43
  SPEAKER_01: Um I typically will put the pedal to the metal um and then hit the brakes, sometimes hard later and and reverse the process.
• 17:53
  SPEAKER_01: But but I think you've got to be willing to take smart risks, you've got to be able to move quickly.
• 17:58
  SPEAKER_03: Um have character while you're doing it.
• 18:00
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and you you you do, you know, and if you're managing a business, right, there's two things you're managing.
• 18:05
  SPEAKER_01: One is the process side of a business, the other is the people side of the business.
• 18:10
  SPEAKER_01: Um and they're both very, very important.
• 18:12
  SPEAKER_03: You have to have both.
• 18:13
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, you absolutely do.
• 18:15
  SPEAKER_01: And so, you know, I somebody told me one time if you want your people to respect you, you have to love them.
• 18:22
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and I and I was contrasting that statement.
• 18:26
  SPEAKER_01: I was very young when I heard this, and uh like my early 20s.
• 18:30
  SPEAKER_01: Then this was from a senior management person that I really respected.
• 18:34
  SPEAKER_01: And at the same time, I'm getting feedback from other people in management saying you have to keep professional distance from from your people.
• 18:44
  SPEAKER_01: Um, they're not your friends, they're your subordinates, and they're your employees.
• 18:47
  SPEAKER_03: And they wanted to be feared.
• 18:49
  SPEAKER_01: I don't even know that it was they wanted to be feared as much as they they really thought that in order to effectively manage a person, you can't be too close.
• 18:58
  SPEAKER_01: Um and there's some truth to that.
• 19:00
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, there's obvious lines, right?
• 19:01
  SPEAKER_01: That you you don't you don't want to cross because you need to do maintain some objectivity.
• 19:06
  SPEAKER_01: Um but I I spent a lot of years trying to figure out how to harmonize those two what seemed like completely different philosophies.
• 19:14
  SPEAKER_03: And the classroom rotate you that.
• 19:16
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, no, uh they won't it all, and and it it's definitely a process of trial and error and making some bad choices and you know learning some hard lessons.
• 19:23
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, but I think it's true, you do have to love the people uh and not in some kind of sappy emotional sense.
• 19:29
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 19:30
  SPEAKER_01: But you have to really care about what happens to them and their career development and um how they're seeing themselves progress and checking in with them to see if that's going according to the plan or if you need to make some adjustments.
• 19:43
  SPEAKER_01: Um, you know, even the people in my group that are very successful, um, you know, I still have a regular check-in.
• 19:50
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 19:50
  SPEAKER_01: That is no agenda.
• 19:52
  SPEAKER_01: It's just to say, what how do you think things are going?
• 19:55
  SPEAKER_01: You know, what are the things that that we as a firm need to be focused on to support you?
• 20:00
  SPEAKER_01: Um because I think a lot of people just assume, well, that that person's doing great.
• 20:04
  SPEAKER_01: They don't they don't need anything.
• 20:06
  SPEAKER_01: Um and it's not just to make sure that we're supporting them, right?
• 20:09
  SPEAKER_01: Part of that drill is to is to communicate to that person that that I I do care about them and their success.
• 20:17
  SPEAKER_03: The human side.
• 20:17
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and then I want to hear from them and they should feel comfortable calling if they need anything.
• 20:22
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 20:23
  SPEAKER_01: And you know, they they should, for lack of a word, feel loved.
• 20:26
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 20:27
  SPEAKER_01: Um and I I think you can you can create a very sterile work environment that doesn't engender loyalty.
• 20:34
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but I think to really engender true loyalty from your team, you you have to be loyal to them.
• 20:40
  SPEAKER_03: Oh yeah.
• 20:41
  SPEAKER_03: Amen.
• 20:42
  SPEAKER_03: Now, if only more people were like that in leadership, but you're already a busy guy.
• 20:48
  SPEAKER_03: Tax law keeps you busy.
• 20:50
  SPEAKER_03: But now we have to get into the DEAC because I think that says so much about who you are as a person and your character.
• 20:58
  SPEAKER_03: You already have a full plate, but 2020 happened.
• 21:03
  SPEAKER_03: Give us the background and the story to how DEAC even evolved and how this became a thing for you.
• 21:11
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, so so DEAC is the Dallas Eviction Advocacy Center, um, which is a nonprofit law firm that defends tenants facing eviction here in Dallas and now in Houston as well.
• 21:23
  SPEAKER_01: Uh Wow.
• 21:24
  SPEAKER_01: Houston too.
• 21:25
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, we've expanded into Houston.
• 21:26
  SPEAKER_03: It's a big deal.
• 21:27
  SPEAKER_01: So um and it's one of the largest tenant advocacy organizations in the United States now.
• 21:33
  SPEAKER_03: Wow.
• 21:33
  SPEAKER_03: Were you the first one?
• 21:35
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, legal aid has been around since you know the 1960s or 70s.
• 21:40
  SPEAKER_01: Um so people have been doing you know legal aid work for longer than I've been alive.
• 21:45
  SPEAKER_01: Um but it is one of the first organizations to achieve the kind of scale that's what I mean, yeah.
• 21:51
  SPEAKER_01: So, you know, historically you you have limited resources and you can only help so many people.
• 21:57
  SPEAKER_01: Um we developed this model during COVID.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_01: Where we can help everyone.
• 22:02
  SPEAKER_01: And we do.
• 22:03
  SPEAKER_01: And so we have lawyers in every courtroom in Dallas County every single day.
• 22:07
  SPEAKER_03: Because I think I saw you post this one time.
• 22:10
  SPEAKER_03: It was some massive statistic where most people, if they've gone to trial about being evicted unfairly, most of the times they don't have lawyer representation.
• 22:20
  SPEAKER_03: And the win to lose ratio is astronomically more successful when you have representation.
• 22:26
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 22:26
  SPEAKER_01: Historically, fewer than 1% of tenants have a lawyer.
• 22:29
  SPEAKER_03: That's crazy.
• 22:30
  SPEAKER_01: It's a very, very small number.
• 22:31
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, and it it makes sense, right?
• 22:32
  SPEAKER_01: These are these are poor people that are usually struggling to pay their rent.
• 22:35
  SPEAKER_01: They sure as hell can't afford a lawyer.
• 22:38
  SPEAKER_01: And so that doesn't mean they don't need one.
• 22:41
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 22:42
  SPEAKER_01: You know, and this is kind of like you and your cell phone company, right?
• 22:45
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, you can say all day it's a contract, you entered into it, you agreed, kinda.
• 22:51
  SPEAKER_02: Mm-hmm.
• 22:52
  SPEAKER_01: Right?
• 22:52
  SPEAKER_01: But you'd have no power to negotiate and you have no leverage to later, right?
• 22:57
  SPEAKER_01: And this is the same thing with landlords and tenants, right?
• 22:59
  SPEAKER_01: There's one of the parties has significantly more power than the other one does.
• 23:04
  SPEAKER_01: The other one is at the other's whim.
• 23:06
  SPEAKER_01: Um and what we saw in eviction courts was if the tenant had a lawyer in 2020, they won more than 80% of the time.
• 23:14
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 23:14
  SPEAKER_03: Crazy statistics.
• 23:15
  SPEAKER_01: Um and a lot of people think when an eviction gets filed, there must be a good reason and that person must deserve it.
• 23:21
  SPEAKER_01: Um it turns out that's just not true.
• 23:23
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 23:23
  SPEAKER_01: Um, as evidenced by the results you see when judges actually look at the case.
• 23:28
  SPEAKER_01: Um if they didn't have a lawyer, they only won 10% of the time.
• 23:33
  SPEAKER_03: Um Yeah, that's the crazy stat.
• 23:35
  SPEAKER_01: Well, and what makes it crazier is these eviction courts are in justice of the peace courts.
• 23:40
  SPEAKER_01: They're they're built and intended so that people don't need a lawyer.
• 23:43
  SPEAKER_01: They're supposed to be able to have two lay people go in and find justice.
• 23:46
  SPEAKER_01: That's why they call them justice courts.
• 23:49
  SPEAKER_01: Um but any scenario where you win 80% of the time if you have a lawyer, and you win 10% of the time you don't, that's not a function of just having good lawyers, right?
• 24:00
  SPEAKER_01: That's a systemic problem.
• 24:01
  SPEAKER_03: But what made you feel like put me in, coach?
• 24:06
  SPEAKER_03: I'm the man to help and be the reason that these tenants actually have a fair trial.
• 24:12
  SPEAKER_03: Was it a personal connection to it?
• 24:14
  SPEAKER_03: Was it you knew someone getting evicted unfairly?
• 24:17
  SPEAKER_03: Was it you just reading the news one day and you posted on Facebook?
• 24:21
  SPEAKER_01: It was the it was the last one.
• 24:23
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 24:24
  SPEAKER_01: I I made a Facebook post about an eviction moratorium, among many other things I was posting about in March of 2020.
• 24:31
  SPEAKER_01: And that particular post went viral.
• 24:34
  SPEAKER_01: And before I knew it, I was getting phone calls from everyone across the state, even the country, um, asking for advice.
• 24:43
  SPEAKER_01: And I was spending like 20 hours a day trying to field these calls, and then I knew nothing about eviction law, so I'm trying to learn eviction law in real time to answer the questions.
• 24:51
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and then that led me to ask other lawyers on Facebook again.
• 24:56
  SPEAKER_01: Here's what I'm doing.
• 24:57
  SPEAKER_01: Does anyone want to help?
• 24:59
  SPEAKER_01: Uh within about a week, we had 50 volunteer lawyers.
• 25:02
  SPEAKER_01: Wow.
• 25:02
  SPEAKER_01: You know, over the course of that first 10 months, we recruited about 250 lawyers.
• 25:07
  SPEAKER_02: Oh my gosh.
• 25:08
  SPEAKER_01: And we helped 6,500 families navigate those early pandemic era eviction roles.
• 25:14
  SPEAKER_02: Wow.
• 25:15
  SPEAKER_01: And by the time I got to the end of that, um, you know, everything that I ever believed about American justice had died.
• 25:23
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I I always I I grew up in a very conservative home in Oklahoma.
• 25:29
  SPEAKER_01: And so I I believed in the pull yourself up by your bootstraps and that the rule of law was the the bedrock of our society, and it was the thing that made America work, um, you know, was our legal system.
• 25:44
  SPEAKER_01: Um and it turns out none of that's true at all.
• 25:47
  SPEAKER_01: Um the legal system works for you if you have the resources to go enforce your rights.
• 25:52
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 25:52
  SPEAKER_01: It doesn't work at all for anybody else unless they get a lawyer.
• 25:57
  SPEAKER_01: And so after that first year, I I'd been in so many courtrooms and just watched poor people just unlawfully get railroaded.
• 26:05
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 26:06
  SPEAKER_01: And over and over and over again, it wasn't like it was just an exception.
• 26:09
  SPEAKER_01: It was the rule.
• 26:10
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 26:11
  SPEAKER_01: And it really, really pissed me off.
• 26:14
  SPEAKER_01: Um and so that's why I formed a nonprofit and raised a bunch of money and hired a bunch of lawyers and said, we're just going to go solve this problem at scale.
• 26:22
  SPEAKER_01: We did.
• 26:23
  SPEAKER_03: And you don't see a lot of people using their law licenses to actually do a lot of good in the community.
• 26:29
  SPEAKER_03: Did you feel not just that you could get this done, but did you feel a personal connection?
• 26:37
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I clearly you know had some life experiences, right, that that put me in their shoes.
• 26:43
  SPEAKER_01: Totally.
• 26:43
  SPEAKER_01: And so, you know, I I had innovated with my wife and kids when I was 21.
• 26:48
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so I knew what that felt like.
• 26:50
  SPEAKER_01: And when they they call and you just you hear the the desperation in their voice, you know what that feels like.
• 26:57
  SPEAKER_01: You know, after years of therapy now about this, uh, because it it it's been a very traumatic experience for me to be and doing this work.
• 27:07
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 27:08
  SPEAKER_03: When you see a lot of families and individuals just their yeah, their life is completely.
• 27:14
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, every day.
• 27:15
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, every day the only people you're talking to are people on the worst day of their life.
• 27:18
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 27:19
  SPEAKER_01: And so, and that, you know, it it it gets to you a little bit sometimes.
• 27:24
  SPEAKER_01: How for sure?
• 27:24
  SPEAKER_01: And for me, having been in some of those similar situations, right, there's this kind of somatic memory, right?
• 27:30
  SPEAKER_01: It gets triggered when you are in those kind of situations again.
• 27:34
  SPEAKER_01: And and it was just so constant and so for so long.
• 27:38
  SPEAKER_03: Mm-hmm.
• 27:39
  SPEAKER_01: Um, that it it's been it's been quite an emotional journey.
• 27:43
  SPEAKER_03: And since it's been an emotional journey, have you done it's been years now?
• 27:48
  SPEAKER_03: Have have you decided to document your story?
• 27:51
  SPEAKER_01: And I wrote a book.
• 27:53
  SPEAKER_01: You wrote a book?
• 27:54
  SPEAKER_01: I wrote a book.
• 27:55
  SPEAKER_01: What's it called?
• 27:56
  SPEAKER_01: It's called Injustice of the Peace.
• 27:58
  SPEAKER_01: And uh it's about my experience in the last six years working on a visions.
• 28:03
  SPEAKER_01: And you know, I tell a little bit of my personal backstory, but also you know, tell a lot of stories about the tenants that we've helped.
• 28:10
  SPEAKER_01: And you might think this is like you know, just lawyer courtroom story that it is not that at all.
• 28:15
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I mean, we've had scenarios where landlords hired gang members to come intimidate single moms and their kids into leaving because they couldn't evict them legally.
• 28:24
  SPEAKER_01: Um, you know, there's a story where I tell them we got a call from a single mom like that at midnight, and actually went over there at midnight, walked right through the windows and and pulled her out of that complex in the middle of the night.
• 28:39
  SPEAKER_03: That's crazy.
• 28:40
  SPEAKER_01: Um and we've had apartment complexes that were set on fire um to presumably get people to move out.
• 28:47
  SPEAKER_01: They couldn't get moved out.
• 28:48
  SPEAKER_03: Wow.
• 28:49
  SPEAKER_01: Um there are lots lots of very interesting high drama uh stories.
• 28:55
  SPEAKER_01: I uh I've had a few people pre-read the book, um, which it's published in March.
• 29:02
  SPEAKER_01: And um, yeah, I th the comment that recurs is I I don't think that a fiction writer could have made any of this up.
• 29:09
  SPEAKER_01: It's so crazy.
• 29:10
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 29:11
  SPEAKER_01: Um so it's it's pretty I think a compelling story.
• 29:14
  SPEAKER_01: I think it makes a good point um about the importance of of of lawyers in poor communities.
• 29:21
  SPEAKER_03: So you've got a lot going on.
• 29:25
  SPEAKER_03: And I know you well enough to know that you're probably already thinking about the next thing.
• 29:30
  SPEAKER_03: What is next for Mr.
• 29:33
  SPEAKER_03: Melton?
• 29:34
  SPEAKER_01: Oh my.
• 29:35
  SPEAKER_03: When he decided to build, change, get started.
• 29:38
  SPEAKER_01: You know, right, I'm focused on two things, other than this book getting published.
• 29:43
  SPEAKER_01: So it's a big deal.
• 29:44
  SPEAKER_01: You know, and at this point it's done.
• 29:46
  SPEAKER_01: So I'm I'm just waiting on the publisher and my my publicists will do all the hard work and I'm just waiting.
• 29:51
  SPEAKER_01: Um but the two things that I really am focused on is obviously with the nonprofit, we've recently expanded into Houston.
• 29:59
  SPEAKER_01: Um just two days ago, they the Harris County approved a new contract um that that went up from a million dollars to a million and a half.
• 30:08
  SPEAKER_01: Wow.
• 30:08
  SPEAKER_01: Um so we're gonna be expanding further into Harris County eviction courts.
• 30:13
  SPEAKER_01: Great.
• 30:13
  SPEAKER_01: Uh we're in talks with several other cities and counties around Texas that want us to come there.
• 30:18
  SPEAKER_01: And so there's there's some expansion of this nonprofit work on the one side.
• 30:23
  SPEAKER_01: On the other hand, you know, I'm still very focused on you know building this Holland Knight tax team.
• 30:29
  SPEAKER_01: Um, you know, and the goal is to make it a premier brand uh when it comes to tax professional services in the United States.
• 30:36
  SPEAKER_01: So um, you know, we brought on 15 new lawyers in the last six months.
• 30:41
  SPEAKER_01: And this next year I'm gonna be hiring a whole lot more lawyers, and we are we're we really are building this premier brand um at Hall of the Night.
• 30:50
  SPEAKER_01: And so I'm excited about the building of that.
• 30:54
  SPEAKER_01: Um I I I enjoy the the project piece of that, I I guess.
• 30:58
  SPEAKER_01: But um but those really between those two things, there's not a whole lot of time to think about much else.
• 31:04
  SPEAKER_01: I I have fantasies already of retirement at some point in my life.
• 31:08
  SPEAKER_03: At some point.
• 31:09
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 31:09
  SPEAKER_01: My wife assures me that she knows me well enough to know that will never happen.
• 31:13
  SPEAKER_03: I don't see you fully retiring.
• 31:15
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I still fantasize about it though.
• 31:17
  SPEAKER_03: Yes.
• 31:17
  SPEAKER_01: That's that's all I need.
• 31:18
  SPEAKER_01: It's just the just the fantasy of sitting on a beach doing nothing.
• 31:22
  SPEAKER_01: Because the fantasy lasts 30 seconds.
• 31:24
  SPEAKER_01: If it lasted 31, I would start thinking, now I'm bored, what am I supposed to do on this beach?
• 31:28
  SPEAKER_03: Are you the type that you can relax your body, but your mind doesn't stop working?
• 31:34
  SPEAKER_03: Like you can lay on a beach and chill, not have anything going on except for sipping a little water or something bubbly by the beach.
• 31:44
  SPEAKER_03: But does your mind ever stop?
• 31:46
  SPEAKER_03: Or do you No.
• 31:48
  SPEAKER_03: No.
• 31:49
  SPEAKER_01: No, it never stops.
• 31:50
  SPEAKER_01: And you know, and the only thing that happens to me on a beach is I get a sunburn.
• 31:53
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 31:54
  SPEAKER_01: So I try and avoid that.
• 31:55
  SPEAKER_03: Amen to that.
• 31:56
  SPEAKER_01: Um but yeah, sitting quietly um is is a tough thing to do.
• 32:02
  SPEAKER_01: It is.
• 32:02
  SPEAKER_01: I I just don't find it I I don't find it relaxing because I'm thinking about all the things I could be doing that would either be more productive or or more fun, even.
• 32:12
  SPEAKER_01: So it's uh it's it's probably not great for me.
• 32:16
  SPEAKER_03: No.
• 32:16
  SPEAKER_01: People always ask me about work-life balance and how do you how do you balance everything?
• 32:21
  SPEAKER_01: I'm the worst candidate to be an example on that front.
• 32:25
  SPEAKER_01: Although the older I get, the more front of mind those things get, and the more seriously I find myself taking it.
• 32:31
  SPEAKER_01: Um I certainly have have learned a whole lot.
• 32:34
  SPEAKER_01: Um, especially in the last six years, it's really been an interesting process of learning.
• 32:40
  SPEAKER_01: Um, you know, and the one thing professionally that I do now to try to manage that is I I have a singular goal every single day, and everything else is a subgoal.
• 32:50
  SPEAKER_01: But the the primary objective every day is to delegate literally every task that comes across my desk.
• 32:57
  SPEAKER_01: Um, no matter what it is, even if I could do it, I try to delegate it.
• 33:03
  SPEAKER_01: And I find that I fail at that just enough to stay busy, you know, 12 to 15 hours a day.
• 33:10
  SPEAKER_01: So, but the the difference is now that even though I'm still working 12 to 15 hours, I'm not finishing the day with this huge list of things that are stressing me out.
• 33:19
  SPEAKER_01: Um the things are things that get get done.
• 33:22
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and they get done much more efficiently and they free me up to even if my day dropped to eight hours, I would probably find something to fill the rest of the day.
• 33:31
  SPEAKER_01: Totally.
• 33:32
  SPEAKER_01: Uh but it's something new and it's something expansive as opposed to um constantly being reactive and trying to play catch up.
• 33:39
  SPEAKER_02: Oh yeah.
• 33:40
  SPEAKER_01: And so and that was a hard lesson for me because I always felt like um if I delegated something, whoever I delegate to wouldn't do it the way that I would want to do it.
• 33:49
  SPEAKER_03: Control.
• 33:49
  SPEAKER_01: And yeah, and it wouldn't be as good or as thorough.
• 33:52
  SPEAKER_01: Um and I saw this D magazine cover one day that said, um, if someone else can do something 80% as well as you can, you should let them.
• 34:03
  SPEAKER_01: Um and that that was another kind of inflection point for me when I read that several years ago.
• 34:08
  SPEAKER_01: I thought about it a lot, and I kept the magazine in a place where I saw it every day.
• 34:12
  SPEAKER_01: You can look at it.
• 34:13
  SPEAKER_01: So I just see the cover.
• 34:15
  SPEAKER_01: Um and it turns out that's true.
• 34:18
  SPEAKER_01: Um you should let them do it if they can do it 80% as well as you can.
• 34:22
  SPEAKER_01: Um and if they can't, then you need better friends.
• 34:25
  SPEAKER_02: Yes.
• 34:26
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and so you know, have having a diversity of people around you is so important because people think about things differently than you do, and they have different skill sets.
• 34:36
  SPEAKER_02: Oh yeah.
• 34:37
  SPEAKER_01: And so if I had a bunch of people just like me, like some people always say, We how do we clone you?
• 34:42
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm like, you don't really want to.
• 34:43
  SPEAKER_02: No.
• 34:44
  SPEAKER_01: Um you you need people that fit together like puzzle pieces, not that stack like bricks.
• 34:50
  SPEAKER_01: Totally.
• 34:50
  SPEAKER_01: So um, so I so I value differences of opinion.
• 34:55
  SPEAKER_01: Um the people in those conference rooms that you look at and you go, I'm so annoyed by this person, they always have something stupid to say.
• 35:03
  SPEAKER_01: And I look at that person, and as soon as the initial annoyance reaction passes, I always remind myself, no, no, listen, like even if you think you're annoyed by this, there's there there might still be a little gem there.
• 35:17
  SPEAKER_03: Or a little nugget.
• 35:18
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, just something.
• 35:19
  SPEAKER_01: And so I've learned to value even people that annoy me to a certain degree.
• 35:26
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and sometimes, you know, they do have valuable things to say.
• 35:29
  SPEAKER_01: They do and perspectives.
• 35:31
  SPEAKER_03: Learn something.
• 35:32
  SPEAKER_01: You do.
• 35:32
  SPEAKER_01: That's why I think that's important.
• 35:35
  SPEAKER_03: Well, thank you so much for your time, Mark.
• 35:37
  SPEAKER_03: I think your story's fascinating, and what you've done, currently doing, and will be doing, everyone needs to know about it.
• 35:44
  SPEAKER_01: And so well, I just came to see you, so it was it was great to see you in person.
• 35:48
  SPEAKER_01: It's been a while.
• 35:49
  SPEAKER_03: Been too long.
• 35:50
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 35:51
  SPEAKER_00: That wraps up today's episode of Beyond the Ledgers, the Growth Exchange with Emily Ackerman and Mark Milton.
• 35:57
  SPEAKER_00: Mark's story is a great reminder that success isn't always a straight line.
• 36:01
  SPEAKER_00: From building a distinguished legal career and leading a growing practice to creating meaningful change through DEAC.
• 36:08
  SPEAKER_00: This journey shows what can happen when expertise, entrepreneurship, and purpose come together.
• 36:15
  SPEAKER_00: Thanks for tuning in to Beyond the Ledger.
• 36:17
  SPEAKER_00: For more conversations with business leaders, entrepreneurs, and innovators, visit btcpa.net and explore our latest resources.
• 36:25
  SPEAKER_00: And don't forget to like, follow, share, and subscribe.
• 36:28
  SPEAKER_00: Until next time, I'm Shard A Layfield, and we'll see you for the next conversation.