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Two Hosts in a Shell - Anime Club · Anime Club Podcast

0:00
Hello and welcome to another episode of Anime Club.
0:04
My name is Chris and this. Underneath me, it's Phoebe.
0:11
How you doing? Yeah.
0:12
Why? How did I end up down here?
0:13
Today, it's because we needed to make space for major Christian
0:16
argue. Yeah, that that.
0:19
And I really like this picture and I wanted to use it, so I
0:22
didn't. I'm trying to move A-frame
0:24
about. I have been so excited to talk
0:28
about this film. I love it so much and watching
0:31
it I've forgotten how stunningly beautiful so many of the scenes
0:35
are. It's just gorgeous.
0:39
Do you know before, before we talk about the animation, stuff
0:42
like that, I just want to say this about this film.
0:44
They're not afraid to linger on a scene.
0:47
Like, not in a bad way, No, no. No, in like a really gorgeous
0:52
way. Also, they're not afraid of an
0:54
animator too. I'm just going to get that in
0:57
there real early. I've it, I I will happily say
1:07
that I think Major Kosanagi might be the hottest anime
1:13
character ever to have been drawn.
1:16
But Speaking of snacks, what snacks have you got this week?
1:23
Well, this week I went a little bit different.
1:26
Didn't you like my segue? I did.
1:29
I was just shocked by it. So OK, yeah, so this week I want
1:34
a bit different and I have a little little game.
1:38
What kind of a little game, but what I'm going to let.
1:41
You do is it could be punishment for you.
1:45
Maybe I did try on before and I couldn't tell it was bad or
1:48
good. But what you can do at any any
1:52
point, book up. Think of a phrase, a trigger
1:55
phrase. Well, I think what we should
1:58
have is like a particular phrase that people can put in the chat
2:03
and let's hand over your snacking to the chat, to the
2:07
live chat. So I think like, put a :) in the
2:13
chat if you want to see Chris roll for what could be a
2:17
horrible thing. I'll tell you what it is anyway.
2:19
So the Jelly beans, it's got a little arrow on here and it
2:23
could be nice flavour. Could be a nasty one, like
2:27
there's apple or wasabi or there's strawberry or chili,
2:32
lemon or ginger. I don't think I like that one.
2:35
Watermelon or jalapeno and strawberry chili.
2:40
Yeah, that's it. So what I'll do is if I'll do
2:43
three different types of chili. Yeah, Molly, our first :) pop it
2:48
in. You'll have to keep us in check,
2:50
by the way. And while you're doing that, I'm
2:53
doing that it is apple or wasabi, which is 1.
2:57
I tried before and I couldn't tell if I got good or bad, but
2:59
do you want to explain? Yourself.
3:00
Well, now we'll be able to. Oh yeah, so I was going to have
3:04
a hot chocolate and some pink. They're like strawberry and
3:07
cream chocolate digestives. They're like little pink ones.
3:11
And I had it all laid out on a cute little pink plate with my
3:14
cute little mug for my hot chocolate.
3:16
And the problem was I made it just like 15 minutes too.
3:19
Early because then I ate three of the biscuits and drank all
3:23
the hot chocolate. So now I've got one chocolate
3:25
biscuit left. And Molly's amazingly just just
3:31
did 3 smileys. So yeah, she's just spamming
3:34
him. The first one was Apple earlier.
3:38
This is watermelon Halloween. And the third one, I think there
3:44
should be a limit on the jalapeno.
3:54
Strawberry or chili? This one you know it is.
3:56
These aren't even that bad. It's not punishment, Strawberry.
4:00
There's still a. There's still Jelly beans.
4:03
I remember. These aren't even that bad.
4:13
I did not expect. That did you expect it out?
4:17
What was it? That's chili, but it's actually
4:19
spicy. What's going on here?
4:24
I've got to eat it, though. I haven't I really.
4:25
So funny. Now you got to finish it.
4:29
Munch it down. Oh your face.
4:32
For those listening on Spotify, Chris's face is doing some
4:35
wonderful things. Pause it and go look at the
4:37
YouTube down the Hatch. Fabulous.
4:50
We'll pause there for a moment and carry on.
4:52
But in in, let's say 5 to 10 minutes, we'll reopen the chat
4:56
function of triggering a crisp snack.
5:00
Yeah, or else I'll either go in a diabetic coma or just not be
5:04
able to speak. Speaking of which, it is
5:07
Diabetes Month. So why did we pick this anime?
5:12
Because I do, actually, I said it as a joke first because I've
5:16
got I kept alive by a machine because I've got an insulin
5:19
pump. But a massive theme of this film
5:23
is it's set in 2029, so the distant future.
5:29
And a lot of the a lot of the people on here, Chris is just
5:36
like a youth that would rob me from Paul, not be hard So in in
5:48
this like. Look after your stuff better
5:49
mate. Yeah, your fault asking for it.
5:54
If you don't want to go, if you don't want to get robbed, don't.
5:56
Come to Morpeth, Yeah, the Morpeth lads and the Morpeth
6:05
Massive. I think it's actually called the
6:09
Morpeth Mad Dogs. OK, get it right.
6:16
But sorry in this feature and like people can replace limbs or
6:22
organs with them with with synthetic stuff like you can
6:28
have a robot arm or a limb, both same thing, but like an organ.
6:34
And so I've technically got a an artificial punk race on us so.
6:40
Technically, yeah. You've got a machinery that's
6:43
releasing insulin into your body when you need it.
6:45
Yeah. You are a Cyborg.
6:50
That's kind of fun to think about.
6:52
I am, but do you have some? I don't know, there could, there
6:57
could be heavy questions or there could not be, but before
7:00
those I'm. Into it.
7:02
I'm so into it. Let's go.
7:04
Could you, Well, you can see why not I've I've got, I've got
7:07
quite a few questions. Well, not that many, but.
7:10
Oh yeah? Well, you've actually prepared
7:12
this week. I'm impressed.
7:14
I have, I have, and I've even got the the synopsis stuff if
7:19
you struggle or anything, but could you go through the plot of
7:23
the 1995 film Ghosts in the Shell please?
7:26
Soaks in the shell. Yes, of course I can.
7:28
There's Seminole work that is. So this is before I go into the
7:32
plot, am I allowed to just have like a fangirl moment where I
7:34
say this is one of my favorite anime films of all time?
7:37
And I know I've said that about a couple of anime films, but
7:39
genuinely, I was watching this film and I was like instantly
7:44
like, oh, it's been over 15 years probably since I've
7:50
watched this. No, maybe, maybe a bit less
7:54
since I've last watched it and it was absolutely stunning.
7:57
I loved it. So it is about Major Kusanagi,
8:02
who is an Android operative for a shady government organization
8:08
called Section 6, and the film starts with her taking on some
8:17
interest. There's some interesting crimes
8:19
that have been occurring and humans with augmentations have
8:25
been being hacked by an unknown, an unknown assailant.
8:31
And what Section 6 are trying to do is to track the hack back to
8:36
the person who is hacking them. So they keep getting closer and
8:40
closer. And then just as they think
8:41
they've got the big guy, they realise that that person is
8:45
another person. Like he's another.
8:48
It's another person who's had their ghost.
8:50
So your ghost is like your spirit, your like organic mind
8:57
inside the, your consciousness inside the like either your your
9:03
human body that's then been augmented or inside like fully
9:08
inside an Android body. So they keep following this hack
9:12
and following this hack. And while this is happening,
9:15
you've also got this kind of gorgeous exploration of what
9:18
like, and I think it's there's a deep irony because most when
9:21
sci-fi deals with robots and when it deals with androids,
9:25
what it's actually always examining is what does it mean
9:28
to be human? So a lot of the time you're
9:31
following Major Kusanagi as she, as she goes through her
9:34
investigation and you see the world through her eyes and her
9:38
own contemplation of is she human?
9:40
Is she sentient? Are any of us like really
9:43
sentient? What does it mean to be
9:48
conscious and self aware? And it's fabulous.
9:52
But anyway, so she's they're following the hack and they
9:54
eventually get close, closer and closer.
9:57
There are some fucking amazing robot fights.
10:00
There's some robot on robot violence in this, including a
10:03
massive spider tank, which I think is one of it's one of the
10:06
best bits of the film where she single handedly takes on this
10:10
massive spider tank and for a minute you think it's going to
10:13
be great. And then she just gets
10:14
absolutely like she has to really push her body, like her
10:18
Android body to the like point of breaking she.
10:23
Gets hench. And then they.
10:25
She gets hench. And eventually they managed to
10:28
track down the source of all this hacking and this
10:31
cybercrime. And it turns out to be another
10:33
sentient. Well, it's it's an artificial
10:36
intelligence. It's a sentient computer program
10:40
which following some kind of. So it was like created.
10:45
Is it by section 9? Is it the same?
10:48
People who created the same people who created Major
10:51
Kusanagi and what they've done is that they tried to, when they
10:57
realised that the this computer program had gained sentience,
11:00
they tried to shut it down. So the computer programme goes
11:05
to Major Ksinagi and asks for political asylum.
11:08
So it you then have like this like argument of can a computer
11:12
programme and the sentient life form be can it be a like is, can
11:21
it be a citizen is actually kind of what it's asking.
11:25
I really love how we get around that.
11:28
It's just like, well, actually would.
11:30
You're a criminal anyway, and we don't house criminals, so yeah.
11:35
Yeah. So we don't offer political
11:37
asylum to criminals, but that then also seems to imply that
11:40
they're accepting that actually political asylum would be
11:44
legitimate if this, if this entity wasn't wasn't a.
11:51
Criminal. Right, if they hadn't performed
11:53
like hack an AI thing anyway, so then the AI and Major Kusanagi
11:57
interface together and the AI offers Major Kusanagi a choice,
12:02
which is could we could we commingle and essentially
12:06
produce? Can we smash?
12:08
The code intellect. Can we smash?
12:12
Can we get those ones and zeros together and?
12:18
Create a new life form that's utterly unique and also has not
12:23
been created by humans, but is like its own unique entity.
12:29
And there's a bit of a kind of like psychic battle.
12:31
Major Kristenagi manages to retain her identity but loses
12:38
her body and then is put into. Something that this is the one
12:43
bit of the film where I was like, this is weird, which is
12:47
that she's put into a body of a child version of herself that
12:51
Bato, who is her like right hand guy just happens to have lying
12:57
around. I don't know if that was because
13:01
you watched, because I watched the Japanese version and you
13:04
watched. Yeah, English version.
13:06
So in the version that I watched, he specifically said,
13:09
Kristinagi says, like, why did you get is this body?
13:13
And he was like, it was the only one I could find on the black
13:16
market at short notice. So apparently in this world,
13:20
there's an abundance of child shells.
13:27
Take take making that what you will.
13:28
But yeah. Yeah, so shells in this world
13:31
are like empty Android bodies that you can put a ghost in.
13:36
It's a great, it's an absolutely stunning film.
13:40
If, if nothing else, just go and watch the opening sequence where
13:43
Major Kristinagi is dreaming of her own creation.
13:46
And because it's so, yeah, well, that's this we can move on to.
13:52
It's so, so stunning. They also, they do this like,
13:57
because it's made in the 90s, which is really hard to put for
14:00
me to believe because it's, I think it holds up so well.
14:03
But they have these moments of very still.
14:05
Kind of static shots where they've obviously had to save
14:07
some budget money. But then they also have these
14:10
incredible action shots and these shots where they move
14:14
through the city and with like, there's.
14:16
It's just so rich and reflective and detailed.
14:20
Yeah, a fantastic film. That's my summary.
14:24
I don't know if I agree with the budget part.
14:27
I think having because there is a lot of landscape pictures over
14:32
the this, this cityscape and stuff like that and it has the
14:35
odd version, but I think that kind of adds to the depth of the
14:41
world and as a nice little product of that, it's cheaper.
14:48
Yeah, but there are lots of scenes where they're just
14:50
talking exposition and you'll just see like, But what what
14:55
they do nicely is they do simple movements in those so that even
14:58
though it's quite a static shot where she'll be like in the back
15:01
of a van assembling a gun as they talk through the strategy
15:05
for how they're going to track down, I forget what they call
15:08
him now, the puppet master, because he's like puppeteering
15:15
these other humans. And also there's like a kind of
15:19
thing where he's going in and like altering their memories.
15:22
So at one point, they track one guy down and it's absolutely
15:26
heartbreaking. They track this one guy down and
15:28
they've given him memories of a family that he never had.
15:32
And he thinks that he's just recently divorced, but he's been
15:36
living alone with no family, no friends for 15 years in this
15:41
kind of like fantasy that the puppet master has established.
15:44
So there's also this element of the puppet master has been
15:48
controlling members of the population unknowingly for
15:52
decades, so. Yeah, I thought.
15:56
Section 6. I thought it was just a because
15:59
he's a bin man and he goes around.
16:01
I thought he was a single guy living in a tiny, messy little
16:05
apartment. And I think, yeah, he's been
16:09
hacked by. Is it 2-5 or one that the
16:12
program's called? It's a string of numbers.
16:16
Anyway, that's the pop up master.
16:18
I think that's that's what happened.
16:20
So I think he was living a sad little bit of my life and then
16:24
got hacked, implanted the memories of his wife, kids and
16:29
dog. And then that's what he thought
16:32
his life was as opposed to him having it for 15 years.
16:36
Because I don't think, I don't think he's been made for that
16:39
long because he was 250 one or two.
16:41
So I'll check his name because he's bothering us.
16:44
Yeah. 25 O1 Project 2 Five O 1 is his name.
16:47
He was. He's something like espionage
16:53
and a narrative control for the government and his top program
17:00
and he gained sentience. In the in the English
17:04
translation, they also it's they kind of link it to like some
17:07
civilian control. So there's an element of like
17:11
espionage abroad, but there's also an element of espionage on
17:15
our own people. Like it's very sinister sci-fi
17:18
dystopian kind of computer program.
17:24
But yeah. And it's absolutely like
17:26
heartbreaking. The moment where Major Kosanagi
17:28
and Bato and are like questioning this guy and being
17:33
like, can you tell us the name of your children can And they
17:37
start asking him details and you see the realisation.
17:40
And if this is again another like shout out to the animation
17:43
because it's so emotive in that moment.
17:45
Like you can feel the emotion on the man's face as his like whole
17:49
world falls apart because he realises that all of this, all
17:53
of these memories he thought he had are all completely fake.
17:59
On that he's just been controlled by an unknown, an
18:03
unknown person, creature, entity.
18:07
I think Entity is probably the best.
18:10
Yeah, yeah, I got mad, Yeah. Hey, I got mad.
18:15
Yeah, yeah, I saw Jake in the chat earlier as well, so I was
18:18
like, I feel. Like this is very.
18:21
Like Jake Jake approved film. Oh, we get a spin.
18:26
Get a spin. This one is cooler or cinema
18:30
with a apple or wasabi but while I'm chewing that apple one.
18:40
Oh. Do you think that the body and
18:46
mind are two separate entities and do you?
18:51
Think. Are you asking me about
18:52
Cartesian truelism, Chris? I don't know what that is.
18:57
I'm not. Smart of that so I have a
19:04
running joke with some people that I if given the opportunity
19:08
I would be switched like if if tomorrow if you offered to put
19:12
me in a jar and be like brain in a jar I would 100% say yes right
19:17
like I'm. All for like living in a world
19:20
of my own mind. That is fine.
19:23
However, if I really dig down into what do I honestly believe,
19:27
I think that Cartesian dualism, which is the idea that the mind
19:31
and the body are separate entities, but they do, they have
19:34
integrations and the psychology of integration between mind and
19:39
body and how they affect each other is the kind of like human
19:43
experience. So that's Descartes.
19:45
I think. Therefore, I am so that the mind
19:47
leads the body because it's separate to the body.
19:52
I think that's built on out of date science.
19:55
So I think what we now know is that actually that like our mind
20:02
and body are more intrinsically linked than we probably are
20:06
aware of. And so, for example, you have
20:10
more neurons in your guts than you do in your brain and your
20:17
your guts and your body and your need for fuel.
20:20
Will make decisions for your brain that you are not
20:23
consciously aware of, so you're driven more by your instincts
20:27
than you realise. Whereas Descartes thought that
20:29
he could pinpoint the connection between the body and the mind to
20:33
a single part of the brain. That's just not how neurology
20:38
works these days. We know that there is there is a
20:40
lot more interplay. There's also a lot more
20:42
interplay between the between parts of our mind and this whole
20:46
concept of like neuroplasticity. So the brain being able to
20:51
compensate for damage that happens within itself by
20:55
rebuilding new connections even in adulthood.
21:01
So fundamentally, no, I think, I think our minds and bodies are
21:06
linked and I think, but I think Cartesian dualism still holds a
21:12
very compelling argument for how do we explain our sense of self.
21:16
And I think that's, that's the kind of thing that's explored in
21:20
Ghost in the Shell is like how, how do you describe your own
21:26
identity? Like what defines Chris versus
21:30
someone else who has lived your exact same life?
21:32
If someone were to live every step and every moment that you
21:36
have lived, would they be the same person or would they be a
21:39
different version of you? Like when we look into each
21:43
other's faces, how can I tell that I'm Phoebe and that you're
21:46
Chris? Like, what is it that defines
21:49
human spirit identity? And like, what is it that
21:52
defines the ghost that exists in our shells?
21:55
And I think that is the that's the thing that makes this
22:00
argument appealing because we don't have an answer for that
22:03
yet. Science hasn't been able to
22:04
really explain that in in a huge amount of detail.
22:10
Well, I think. Oh, sorry.
22:14
Carry on. Yeah.
22:15
I was just going to say I think a lot of it is personal.
22:21
So it it's what feels right because I mean, we've said it
22:25
quite a lot before. I say it with the north-south
22:28
divide and we had to link it to this.
22:31
But if so, that feet but you will.
22:32
Link it to anything if you can. Yeah, I'll always bring this up.
22:37
So I think if it, if it feels right, then it is, then that's
22:41
the right answer. Because you can't prove it
22:43
anyway. Because if you're saying that
22:45
the the mind and the body are totally different, can you
22:47
separate them? What's to say that the the empty
22:50
shell is not Chris and the? You know what I mean?
22:54
The mind is something separate. Yeah, yeah.
22:56
The mind is the addition and the and the shell is the is the
23:00
Chris. Yeah, exactly.
23:03
But do you think to Kusanagi in this is has a fully prosthetic
23:09
body? She has, she's got Kusanagi
23:12
brain cells I think, but she's even got an artificial brain.
23:16
It's not fully human and so do you think she is a human or
23:25
could be classed as a person? Yes, so and I think those two
23:31
things are different. I think, I think what this kind
23:35
of sci-fi explores is what is the what is the personhood
23:41
beyond human humanity. So I think a major personality
23:49
in this demonstrates qualities of sentience and qualities of
23:56
personhood in that she, and I think particularly that final
24:01
bit with the puppet Master, her decision not to merge, because
24:05
merging would be a logical choice for a programme, right?
24:10
But her choice is to keep her own identity.
24:14
So she clearly has boundaries to her sense of self, which I think
24:20
is part of what would define her as a human being, part of what
24:23
just finds her as a person. But she's not a human being
24:26
because she is an Android and her experiences are different.
24:31
And a lot of the film, you see it through her eyes or you see
24:34
her life in a reflection like the film is about, is like a
24:39
mirror to humanity. But she is, she is often
24:43
separate from the humans around her, and she chooses to keep
24:46
humans around her very deliberately.
24:48
There's even like a conversation quite early on in the film with
24:52
Togo Sir, who's one of the detectives who's got the world's
24:55
most terrible mullet. I've never seen a police officer
24:58
with a mullet. Each to the own.
25:00
I think it's great. He's my favorite character.
25:02
Whatever. Yeah.
25:06
What, Chris, tell me, what was it that about the, the, the
25:09
middle-aged dad that appealed to you?
25:11
As a character, me because I, I think he's the most reliable
25:16
character in this because he's because he's a human.
25:19
He does. I think he's got augmented parts
25:22
of him, but for the most part he's fully human.
25:25
He's got all these limbs, all these organs and everything.
25:28
He has a wife and a kid. And as in that conversation
25:33
where he's talking to Kusanagi because he's like, why did you
25:39
bring me on this elite Section 9 team when I'm just a normal
25:43
bloke? You've got a battle with these,
25:46
with these super eyes. He's.
25:48
Cool eyes. Yeah, and he's massive and
25:50
strong and he's all this, and then you've got you who's an all
25:54
rounder and then you've got whoever.
25:56
And she's like, well, if everyone works the same way,
26:00
then you'll not be able to come out a problem from a different
26:03
angle. It's it like if all a part of a
26:05
machine work exactly the same way, It's a it's a what you say
26:09
it's a it's a fault in the system.
26:11
So we need to come out from that human element, which which I
26:16
love. I think without him, the story
26:20
in the film would have been less.
26:22
He didn't even have a massive part in it.
26:24
I know he just later on in in other films in the series, but
26:29
yeah, I just like him and he's got a.
26:30
Big 6 shooter and he got a big six shooter.
26:34
We love a big old 6 shooter. There is an element of gun porn
26:37
in this film. And Jackson Wolf Studio is
26:41
telling me don't diss the mullet and Molly's now telling me
26:43
mullets are in. So apparently I'm not on the
26:46
cool train. Molly wants to give our son a
26:49
mullet. I don't agree with that Ginger
26:53
mullet. All right, sorry, the
26:57
complaining that I haven't spun the Jelly Bean, apple or wasabi
27:01
Nobody there. It's oh, it's another chili or
27:05
strawberry or. Chili.
27:06
Oh, is that the one that made you gag?
27:07
Put it in your mouth. Put it in your mouth.
27:10
No, don't sniff it. Just bite down.
27:18
Oh, Strawberry. OK, nice.
27:24
There's not Bob. There's not, Bob.
27:30
Nice, nice, nice. Sorry, yeah, but togas.
27:34
Is a great. Sorry, but it's.
27:36
Cool Togas is great, he's your favorite character.
27:39
I was wanting to talk about your point before where when you were
27:43
saying that people also view view the major as human, kind
27:51
of. Yeah.
27:52
Because as it's weird because a majors got them human brain
27:59
cells inner, I think that makes all the difference to everyone
28:03
else because the the project the puppet master when he's
28:08
inhabited a another shell and at the at the end scene where
28:13
they're connected and they're both talking to each other.
28:16
If you notice, do you know battle only put his clothes over
28:20
major and not the puppet master to save addictively because I
28:25
think he views her as a another human and he sees the puppet
28:30
master who's essentially the same without brain cells in the
28:33
shell. He's just a complete program
28:36
that's been transferred into there.
28:39
There is also in the in the so there's there are there are
28:44
subsequent films to ghosts in the shell.
28:46
So you've got like there's one which is, I can't remember.
28:49
It's the smiling something which is laughing or the laughing man.
28:53
There's the laughing man, there's the the reboot.
28:56
And then there's also the stand alone complex, which is like the
28:58
series of this as well as the manga.
29:00
And in the in some of the later bits of media and in the
29:05
original manga, a Batto like there's almost like a kind of
29:09
vampiric element to Major Kristenagi because she is this
29:13
entity that doesn't age. So she changes as she
29:18
experiences different things in the world.
29:20
But physically, because she's in this Android body, she remains
29:24
kind of young, strong, powerful, beautiful, whereas Bato
29:30
relatable, obviously, whereas Bato is ageing as the series
29:36
goes on. And you see the same with
29:38
Togusa. Like Togusa experiences the
29:41
things that a father of a daughter experiences.
29:44
He experiences like his daughter growing up.
29:46
He experiences challenges with his marriage and like, whereas
29:51
Kusanagi is kind of in this fixed point in time.
29:55
And I there's also this really tragic and I think you get hints
29:59
of it in this film. That and one of the moments I
30:02
think is also that covering her up where you can have Bato has
30:07
clearly as a younger man had feelings for Kusanagi and has
30:11
aged beside her, whereas she hasn't.
30:15
And you see him later kind of like having these moments of
30:18
like, like, I think they even have a conversation in the
30:22
Laughing Man where he talks about the fact that one day he's
30:25
going to die and she's going to carry on.
30:29
But there is he clearly does still see her.
30:34
So even even though he's recognising that she's different
30:38
and ageless, he still sees her very much as a person.
30:42
Like he's it's still someone that he has emotions and a
30:46
relationship with. And I think you're right, that
30:49
kind of contrast between how he treats her versus how he treats
30:54
is a really good way of highlighting that.
30:59
See now. Yeah.
31:00
And I. Think is is that because of him
31:04
growing up with the major instead of the distinction
31:09
because she has an organic matter inside of her head?
31:14
Yeah. But but I think it can be both.
31:17
I think it can be both, because I think that those brain cells
31:20
do make the difference, but I think also Major Kusanagi is
31:25
more interested in humanity than the Puppet Master is.
31:30
So Major Kusanagi is choosing to surround herself with humans.
31:36
She's picking people for her team who contrast her own being,
31:41
whereas the Puppet Master is trying to find the one other
31:45
entity that is like them. So there's I.
31:53
And one of the questions I keep asking myself is, does Major
31:56
Kusanagi see herself as a person or does she see herself as a
32:00
program? And I don't know if I can answer
32:06
that. I think she's trying to work it
32:10
in the film. I think she she's yeah.
32:12
She doesn't have an answer for it.
32:15
Yeah, I think she kind of has something towards the end of the
32:21
film. I think she views herself as as
32:23
not a as an Android and something different to like
32:29
everyone that's on section 9. But yeah, I think I think it was
32:35
a journey. I think it depends on what part
32:37
of the film you're at to what she's thinking.
32:40
Because I mean, even there's some points where she talks to
32:43
her, talks to her ghost as a separate being and in as well,
32:48
even after she's do you want to go is diving and there but it
32:52
was to say why you dive If one of those because obviously
32:57
issues are shells, not a human body.
33:00
It doesn't float, else it's made of what is.
33:05
It begins with T It's made of metal.
33:09
Anyway, titanium. Titanium, yeah, and it'll sink
33:13
like a sink, like a stone. And if one of your flotation
33:19
devices that as you've gone here at the bottom of the sea, you
33:22
kind of get up, we kind of recover here.
33:24
What do you feel there? And then she starts hearing
33:26
voices. And then she sees her own
33:28
reflection. And she's kind of feeling human
33:31
emotion, which is is rare because she gives you a note
33:35
from my face. Yeah, and and she seems to be
33:40
trying to chase that human emotion.
33:42
Jackson has also just. I keep saying Jackson Wolf has
33:48
also just said, yeah, the diving scene might tell more about
33:50
this. Yeah.
33:55
And then Lee's gone back to mullets.
33:57
Look, I'm sorry, mullets are cool.
33:58
I take it back. No, Lee hates mullets.
34:03
Does I fully think that Lee could rock a mullet but not like
34:10
a kind of not like a Togerson mullet.
34:12
I think Lee could rock like a proper 80s Bon Jovi style.
34:20
Nice little burn from Molly there.
34:23
Yeah, yeah. He.
34:26
Must be rightly. You are well known to be right
34:29
at the forefront of fashion trends.
34:33
He's a stylish fella. Yeah, no, I think the diving
34:41
scenes really telling. There's also something and can
34:44
we just talk about the opening sequence as well where you have
34:48
her the kind of creation just going back to the creation
34:52
sequence, because something else that I think comes into this,
34:55
and it's even in the like, so ghost in the shell is obviously
34:58
from like the Deus Ex machina, which is another kind of
35:01
Descartes coined phrase and the kind of French philosophical
35:07
philosophical phrase, which is about this concept of did God
35:12
create man or did man create God?
35:15
And you have this like there's this push pull between science
35:20
and spirituality in the film. And I think some of the imagery
35:24
in the diving scene in that opening sequence, there is a
35:28
almost like a kind of religious reverence to the like.
35:32
It's so beautiful, especially that bit where OK.
35:36
I'm not going to call it, I'm not going to call it the Seaman
35:39
Bath. It's like the wish you'd be
35:40
coming out of that white. We, we called it, well, I, I
35:44
said a phrase that you said you were going to call up for.
35:46
It was a jizz koozie. When she's coming out of the
35:51
jizz koozie at the beginning. Thank you.
35:56
Because you're welcome. I did say that I'd be willing to
35:58
use that phrase, but I didn't want to use semen.
36:01
Bath jizz jizz koozies fine. And when she's coming out the
36:08
jazz koozie at the beginning and then suddenly it kind of like
36:10
the IT kind of almost turns to paper and like rips off her skin
36:15
to reveal like Major Kosanagi's more human like skin underneath
36:22
and her. Boobs.
36:25
If you're in anime for the titties, you will not have to
36:27
wait more than 20 minutes before you get shots of tits.
36:33
But it kind of like rips off and almost looks like kind of a
36:38
flurry of paper or something. And it feels so much like some
36:44
sort of kind of spiritual kind of oops, sorry, I'm knocking my
36:48
mic. Some sort of spiritual like
36:50
awakening type thing. It's absolutely stunning.
36:54
And that kind of like contemplation between are we
36:58
human? Are we animals?
37:00
Are we robots? Like is if you're accepting that
37:07
like, what's the spark of divine in, in like your spirit versus
37:12
my spirit, this idea of like ghosts and, and human identity
37:16
and. They got Oh my God, what have
37:19
you just put in your mouth? Wasabi, but not white.
37:23
Nice wasabi. Weird Jelly Bean Wasabi, Yeah.
37:32
But yeah, it pulls, it does that classic sci-fi thing of like,
37:36
not only examining our existence, but examining like
37:39
the philosophy behind who we are and what does creation mean?
37:45
Like what? Like why are we creating robots
37:48
that look like ourselves? I was actually going to ask you
37:52
why. Why is that?
37:54
Is that why you think that the the shells are human shaped?
37:57
Because if for section 9 or section 6, who created them?
38:02
These are for these are shells built for specific roles.
38:06
So why why don't they have like specific body types?
38:09
Because like you get battle and then you get Kusanagi 2 entirely
38:14
different things. Why don't they have like 3 arms
38:17
or a rocket launcher forehead or something like that or?
38:22
So this, no, I was going to say this leads me on to another
38:26
question for you, but let's answer that one first, or.
38:31
Are we all not born from the Jizz?
38:34
Jacksonville Studio, 2025. Even androids.
38:40
Also, I love that Lee's declaring that he's going to be
38:42
a fashion icon. The fashion icon he was destined
38:45
to be on top grunts. Yeah, so this is the thing that
38:51
you just said it in the chat. So God like did God.
38:54
So we off like in the Bible, whether you're Christian or not,
38:58
there's this kind of idea that man is created in God's image.
39:02
But when you look at some of the French philosophers, which I
39:07
think I think this film is very heavily influenced by like
39:11
French existential philosophy and the early parts of it being
39:17
like Cartesian, Cartesian philosophy.
39:20
There's also this question of did God create?
39:22
Did were we created in God's image or did we create God in
39:26
our image? So if you look at the
39:28
iconography of like Jesus on the cross, Jesus comes down this
39:33
like he's a divine entity, but in human form.
39:37
The same for if you look at even some like Hindu iconography,
39:41
like you might have an extra set of arms.
39:43
You might have, you know, like animal characteristics, but
39:48
fundamentally there is humanity underneath in these divine
39:52
forms. The same for the ancient Greeks,
39:54
the same for the ancient Romans. And actually there are kind of
40:00
very few religions where God, the divine is not depicted in a
40:06
kind of humanly recognisable way.
40:09
And I think there is something in us as a species that when we
40:13
create, we look to create in our own image.
40:16
So whether or not we are created in in someone else, some other
40:20
entity, divine entity's images not.
40:22
A question that I'm willing to answer because I don't know.
40:26
Probably not. Probably.
40:29
No, just doesn't seem. But what I do think we do do is
40:33
great stuff that looks like us. We make statues of ourselves, we
40:37
create paintings of our loved ones.
40:40
So I think it is natural for us to seek out to when we're
40:44
looking to create sentience. We will create it in as closer
40:49
to our own self as we can. Which I think is lazy.
40:58
I would ask. I would.
41:00
That's why I love you, because I'll say something really
41:02
pretentious like that and you'll be like, yeah, and it's lazy.
41:06
And you're right. Yeah, it's just like design
41:09
something better, you know, You know, humans limitations.
41:11
So get rid of that. Even of when you say just before
41:14
Kusanagi comes out the jizz bath, she can see all of our
41:16
muscle structure and everything like that.
41:18
It's exactly the same as a human jacuzzi.
41:21
All right, Jacuzzi, just like just improve it so you can have
41:26
like 360° motion in your arms and.
41:29
OK, so this is back to. The question I wanted to ask
41:32
you, other than an artificial pancreas, what augments in this?
41:37
If we're in 2029, the far distant future, what augments
41:41
and Cyborg cybernetics are you getting?
41:44
And would you go full Android body given the choice?
41:50
I would probably, but if I just had the choice of augments I
41:54
would put more hardiest skin. I'm sick of cutting myself by
42:04
accident, not not on purpose. Can I just say, if you don't
42:07
want to cut yourself, you need to stop scratching with Stanley
42:10
knives. It toughens the skin up.
42:13
I bet I barely cut myself anymore.
42:16
But it'd be so much better. There's so many times where I've
42:20
went to grab a hot bit of metal and bent me hand but like when
42:24
your skin gets thick you don't realise until it's too late as
42:27
well so you'll touch it. And more damage.
42:31
Yeah, so thick, thicker skin, more hardier skin.
42:36
I wouldn't mind a titanium exoskeleton.
42:39
Normal skeleton more like. Oh, OK, So you wouldn't go
42:44
exoskeleton, You wouldn't go like beetle man?
42:47
No. No, no, I'd be like.
42:49
I still want to look human. Androids in disguise?
42:55
Yeah, well, I don't want to change this.
42:58
Transformers. Could I actually have a mullet
43:05
augmentation? Yes, it's all I'll pick.
43:10
Because in this you would also have the hair to do it with.
43:16
What you try to say? But what I think I would do is
43:22
full Android body. I'd be with Molly, Molly's gone
43:25
said yes, go full Android body. I'd be snatched and I think I
43:29
would. I think I would be happy being
43:31
in a like a crazy pet like. I'd.
43:34
Love to be like crazy, like running up walls like Major
43:37
Kristen Argue is to fight a spider robot.
43:40
Giant spider tank. Also, if you want an Android
43:44
body, you would choose to do things like that and you
43:48
wouldn't have it for comfort because you could have like a
43:53
extended norm so you can reach like Pat the Crisp near say the
43:56
room or something. That's a good one.
43:58
Without moving. Also if I had an Android body I
44:01
wouldn't have to worry about like gaining weight from eating
44:03
too many packets of crisps and I could just eat like a whole
44:06
multi pack without any sense of guilt.
44:09
Are we there to does cushion, argue, eat?
44:12
I don't want to live without taste.
44:16
Good question. I imagine she sleeps, which I
44:20
think is interesting. Yeah, yeah, I bet.
44:24
Do you think she dreams of electric?
44:26
She does, she does, she does, she does eat in it.
44:33
But I don't. I can't tell if that's just
44:35
because she's offered food or if because because she needs to eat
44:39
to fuel herself. Do you know what that implies?
44:44
Kusanagi poops. What?
44:52
What? OK, so here's a question.
44:55
The colour of your poop. I know this from cells that
44:59
cells that work. The colour of your poop is brown
45:02
because it's old red blood cells.
45:07
Speak for yourself. What colour is your poop?
45:13
Sorry, what? We said kind.
45:14
Of disturbing mustard colour so it's because it's it's brown
45:19
because it's the it's the it's your body is shedding dead blood
45:24
red blood cells right so that's why it goes that colour is the
45:27
bile is made-up of that if you haven't got red blood cells but
45:33
are still. Consuming food.
45:35
What color is your poop? Is it that she's would she be
45:39
expelling Android liquid? Is she expelling weird jizz
45:43
koozie leftovers? Like what's going on?
45:46
When she is poop like like if we.
45:48
Just follow. This through to its logical
45:50
conclusion. Chris's poop is white, no?
46:01
It's like, you know, the dog poo in the 90s that's.
46:10
A sign of a sick dog if it's white.
46:13
It's a sign that they've had poor quality diet with bones in
46:17
it. I don't eat very well.
46:20
I drink cans of monster and noodles.
46:26
But anyway, who's your favorite character?
46:30
Couldn't argue. I think she's the sexiest anime
46:33
character ever to be drawn and the one of the reasons she's so
46:38
sexy is she's highly competent. Like she's very, very logical.
46:43
She's very she doesn't panic. She also doesn't put other
46:47
people at risk when she can like do the like.
46:49
She's a protector I think at her core and she's a badass and
46:55
she's fit. Fair.
46:59
And at one point she dives off a building and she just, like,
47:03
turns invisible. Yeah, she's amazing.
47:07
And I love her and she's my favorite character.
47:14
There are some teenage notebooks that belong to belong to me
47:18
somewhere. It probably in my mum's attic
47:20
where I've drawn pictures of her in the margins.
47:25
Not in a creepy way, just. Pops their boobs.
47:30
It also her head like that asymmetrical Bob.
47:36
Oh yeah, that's cool for night. Was this 95 as well set in 2029?
47:43
Do you think, do you think we could go that way?
47:47
Would you like genuinely would you think, do you think we could
47:52
live in a world like this? I wonder if I don't think it's
48:00
that far fetched. The idea of at what point does
48:04
computers achieve sentience I find fascinating.
48:09
I don't think we're there yet, but I think we could be on our
48:12
way there. Do I think civilization will
48:15
survive long enough for us to see androids and like us
48:22
transplanting our bodies into other entities?
48:25
I don't know. Part of me is very cynical and
48:28
wonders if we'll just like society, all collapse before we
48:31
get the chance. But the other part of me really
48:33
hopes that we get to a point where we are able to do this and
48:36
maybe that's our salvation. But this is like a film because
48:40
this, this film heavily influenced The Matrix.
48:43
It also heavily influenced the film AI.
48:46
Do you know the one with the kid who sees dead people?
48:49
6th Sense. And at the end, that's The Sixth
48:53
Sense. But he was also at a film called
48:55
AI. Artificial intent, which Jude
48:58
Law is a weird sex robot. Have you seen this film?
49:02
Oh, Chris, great sci-fi. It's a really, it's actually
49:05
really good sci-fi AI and it there's a mass I don't know if I
49:10
want to do. Spoilers of you bison Tenny
49:13
rounds great, but this but AI is influenced by this film
49:17
specifically and particularly the ending.
49:19
The idea of like human if. What if the next stage of human
49:23
evolution isn't organic, but it is in fact artificial?
49:28
I think I'll have to be, but I don't think we've got the
49:31
infrastructure or power resources at the minute to even
49:34
think about doing stuff like that.
49:36
Hence the collapsing of civilization.
49:39
Yeah, well, there is slums in this and like, because when you
49:42
when you look at the world like you follow a bin man through
49:46
some horrible little crowded area, big crowded areas, it
49:50
reminds me of what was that big block called in?
49:54
Is it Taiwan or not Hong Kong? Do you know what's been
49:59
demolished now? Whether had them, whether
50:01
filmed? Oh yes, yeah, yeah, That film
50:05
that we watched for Top Grumps, Yes.
50:08
And The Tower. Something like that, but anyway
50:12
to really? Get in the chat, help us out,
50:14
yeah. Yeah, it's a densely packed and
50:18
slum, basically. It's full of yeah, nothing.
50:22
Like the towers from Judge Dredd and actually in Bicentennial
50:27
Man. So Bicentennial Man is a part of
50:30
the I Robot series by Asimov. And in one of those books called
50:35
Caves of Steel, humans are living in these densely packed,
50:40
like all of human civilization is now in densely packed high
50:43
rises where you've got whole cities in a tower.
50:47
And one of the kind of roles of the police that they have hired
50:51
androids to do is to try and control the population because
50:55
there are like, regular riots because, like, humanity is kind
50:58
of try just like in so tightly packed and and like, there's
51:03
like a kind of like bubbling rage that happens because of the
51:06
living conditions. Yeah.
51:12
We can't in the country. This is the spot like 2000
51:18
people in my village is no near 1 near 1.
51:22
Literally you can walk like 5 minutes and you're out in the
51:25
middle of nowhere. Yeah, yeah.
51:29
You are You live in the least densely populated county in the
51:33
country and you're getting angry with people being too close to
51:36
you. Yeah, yeah, it's never enough
51:39
for me. Give me that desert island.
51:46
There'd be someone within 50 miles.
51:47
I'll complain somehow, but I think, Oh no.
51:52
Last point I want to talk about is the music in this, because I
51:56
think it's amazing that I don't even know what kind of music is
52:00
there. Apparently right I was I saw so
52:05
far. I don't know if it's true or not
52:06
though because I didn't verify performed seeing that Obi mouth
52:10
but it's translated from old Japanese or something I couldn't
52:15
understand. It's definitely, it's definitely
52:18
got the kind of chromatic, tonal, like dissonant harmony of
52:24
traditional, of some like traditional Japanese folk music.
52:28
There's one particular song which is, you know, where she's
52:32
going in. She's like, is it on?
52:34
She's either on a train or on a bus or something going through
52:37
the city, and it's very slow. It's one of the scenes where
52:41
they really indulge in lingering on.
52:44
And at one point she looks out the window and she sees another
52:47
version of herself sitting in a cafe, and they like, lock eyes.
52:51
There's a piece of music. There's a piece of music that
52:54
plays in that in that sequence called Assayeen, which has made
52:59
it onto nearly every every playlist I've ever made since I
53:02
was about 16. Like the the music in this is so
53:07
atmospheric and gorgeous, I love it.
53:10
I know, yeah. I've got my last question, would
53:21
you recommend this to someone who's never seen anime before?
53:25
Yes. Which didn't.
53:27
This would be a good intro. Big beginner anime.
53:31
If someone told me that the kind of films they like are Blade
53:35
Runner and Scythe, are they really into sci-fi?
53:39
This is the anime that I would recommend they watch.
53:45
Yeah, because it's it's cyberpunky.
53:47
It's a mixture between Blade Runner in the Matrix for someone
53:50
who's never seen anime. Correct.
53:55
But yeah, that that's it for me, for my questions.
54:01
This is fun. Thank you so much.
54:03
No, just thank you for letting us do this for Ghost to the
54:07
shell. No, but what are we doing next
54:09
week? I would love to tell you, but I
54:13
don't know. You can't remember, can you?
54:16
That's fine, because I do. And we're going to watch Gatcha
54:19
Kuza. Oh.
54:20
Yes, yes, watching Gatcha Kuza gatcha.
54:23
Kuza. I also just want to see Thanks
54:27
for recommending this as well because I think this was wasted
54:31
on me as a kid when I watched it first because I remember seeing
54:34
it. I remember seeing that animated
54:36
boobs, I remember seeing the robots beating crap of each
54:39
other and shooting guns and this is great.
54:42
This. And as an adult watching it, I'm
54:45
still a bit like that but it's got a good story.
54:47
Amazing. It's.
54:49
A whole another layer, right? And that's why it's such a good
54:53
recommendation for a first anime because it can hit you in that
54:57
fun, action-packed place where there's, like, cool fight
55:00
scenes, there's big explosions. There's like, like, guns and
55:05
gadgets. And then there's also the, like,
55:08
kind of adult thing going along where it's like, thinky
55:12
philosophical, but it kind of lures you into the philosophical
55:15
thinking without you even really realising, which is great.
55:19
You're getting more smiley faces.
55:20
You'll do one more snack before we go, Chris.
55:23
Before before we do that, have you actually I'm going to try
55:26
the only flavour that I haven't, which is lemon or ginger.
55:31
Have you actually watched any Gotcha Cousy yet?
55:35
No, I haven't. Have you?
55:37
Yeah, I'm up to like episode 9. Oh, you've blown past the first?
55:42
Yeah, you've blown past the first 3 episodes.
55:44
OK, good. I'm looking forward to it.
55:45
Then what? Have we got for ginger?
55:48
Yeah, I'm on that cheery note. Yeah, thanks very much for
55:53
watching and I'll see you next week.
55:56
Bye. Bye.