Latest / ROAR with Danielle Davies: Women, Culture and Impact / Why Women Are Taught to Be Palatable (with Sophie Jane Lee)

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Why Women Are Taught to Be Palatable (with Sophie Jane Lee) · ROAR with Danielle Davies: Women, Culture and Impact

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Women's unpaid labour is a multi trillion dollar industry.
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We literally are. Unpaid labour literally holds up
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the entire system. That's Sophie Jane Lee, and this
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is Roar. Hi, everybody.
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It's Danielle Davies, the host of Roar.
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I'm really excited today on where I'm joined by Sophie Jane
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Lee. She's a journalist, brand
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strategist, founder of Electric Peach, but most recently, she's
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the author of the upcoming book Beyond Palatable, A manifesto
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for unapologetic women, which is obviously perfect for all of us.
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Sophie's work sits at the intersection of voice,
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visibility and nervous system safety.
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She writes about the cost of shrinking ourselves to be
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accepted and what happens when women stop performing
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palatability and start telling the truth.
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Her book isn't just a self help manual, it's a manifesto, a
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challenge to the systems that teach women to dilute
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themselves, and a toolkit for reclaiming authenticity in a
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world that profits from our silence.
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Today we're going to be talking about self-expression,
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conditioning, leadership, and what it actually means to live
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unapologetically. Oh, I have an echo.
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Sophie, welcome to ROAR. Thanks so much for being here.
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Thank you so much for having me. That was really great
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introduction. I was like, oh, it sounds so
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cool. I think I should just do
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introductions because like, I obviously want to talk about the
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book a lot because by the time this podcast come out, it comes
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out, it'll be available. And will it be available in the
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US? Yes.
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So you can buy it on all major bookstores and you can, at the
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moment you have to ship it over to the US, but you can do that
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easily. OK.
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And so we're going to talk about that, but I want to just tell
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you at the outset that at some point I also want to talk about
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your mastermind and the self-expression sessions and be
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like, what are you doing across the pond and how do I get there?
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Yes, OK. Yes, OK.
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We'll talk about. That OK, so first of all, the
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book you're talking, I love that you use the word palatable
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because it's just exactly right. Like our just even before we hit
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record, I was like, sorry if I'm too much and you reassured me
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there is no too much. We're kicking that to the curb.
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So when we talk about the word palatable, what behaviors are we
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talking about? What is a good woman look like
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culturally? It looks like apologizing for
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yourself and bringing as you did this incredible, welcoming,
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beautiful energy and still feeling like, oh, no, maybe I
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went too far. Presumably because at some point
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somebody has said, Danielle, calm down or maybe just tone it
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down a bit, whatever that might be, which is so common.
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I've worked with hundreds of women with that exact same
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experience and story. And it can also look like being
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really quiet. So you have something that you
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want to say, but holding back and not wanting to say the thing
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that that your idea, for example, not wanting to rock the
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boat, saying yes when you mean no, which we all have the
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experience of so many times. It can look like constant
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servitude and the idea that you need to be everything to
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everybody all the time. And usually when you get into
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your midlife, you realise how completely burnt out you are
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because you've been spinning 500 different plates and nobody's
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giving you any energy back again.
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It can look like pretending that you love the PTA.
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I don't know if you have PTA in the US, but it's the Parent
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Teacher Association. Yeah, Yeah.
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So it's like, it looks like saying, yes, that you'll do the
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talk at the PTA this evening when you actually really hate
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all of the mums there and you don't want to be spending your
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evening doing that. It's it's kind of this, this
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ingrained expectation that women have to perform in every element
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of our lives. So we're performing what it
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looks like to be the perfect wife or the perfect mother or
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the bad ass boss bitch or the like, whatever it might be, and
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we just completely disconnect from the truth of who we
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actually are. I have a question.
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So, you know, I've, I've been talking to some, I am in
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midlife. So I've been talking, of course,
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I do a lot of research about women in midlife because it
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benefits myself. But one of the things you know,
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is obviously like stepping back from that and reclaiming that
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and, and you know, hopefully raising the next generation,
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which I think I am successfully doing.
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I must say my daughter is, does not, you know, she's like, no,
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no, no, these are my boundaries and I absolutely will not do
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that. And that's awesome for me.
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I'm unlearning that kind of behavior, right?
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Like, and, and, but sometimes I'm like, Oh my God, will I
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never do anything again? Because it turns out because I'm
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like, I don't want to do any of those things, you know?
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So like, is there, do you advise women or even in your book, are
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you like, Hey, there are some things we have to do and what
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are they like? Where do you say, OK, I have to
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show up for this school thing even though I absolutely hate it
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and I don't want to hang out with these moms and I'm not
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going for drinks afterwards? Or you just say absolutely not
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like I'm not doing it. Is there a point?
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Or do you just always say no? Because right now I'm like
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saying no to everything. And I think that's I'm here for
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that. That's great.
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I think in reality though, it's really unrealistic.
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And it's I talk in the book a lot about all of these Tri
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slogans that we hear. Like if it's not a fuck yes,
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it's a fuck no. I'm guessing I can swear.
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Yeah, yes, absolutely. OK.
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And it's like, if it's not a fuck yes, it's a fuck no like
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that. No, that's not like it's never
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going to be a fuck yes for me to go and do my weekly shop like
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it's it's not, but it has to happen.
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I'm like when I go to the dentist, I'm never like, fuck
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yes, I'm going to the dentist. I hate it.
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But it's an obligation that. Yes, OK, sorry, yeah.
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It's an obligation to yourself and like in the same like my
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stepson, my stepson's mom lives like a 1 1/2 hour round trip
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with traffic. It's never going to be a fuck
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yes for me to go and get him and take him back.
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But we do it because we it's the payoff for that.
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So it might be you absolutely hate the PTA, but you want to
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show up for your kid and you want to be a present mom and you
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want and you really want to be part of influencing the school
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system in whatever way. So then it's a spectrum of
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discernment of, OK, so the experience right now is really
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not what I want, but the reason I'm doing it is good enough and
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big enough and bigger than me and my needs to do it to make it
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worth it. And, and I think that's kind of
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where really more than anything, I want people to, to start to
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tune into the truth of themselves.
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If it's an absolute fuck no, then I think we need to listen
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to that. If it's like a visceral and
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you'll know it because your body will respond, you'll start to
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feel anxious, you'll start to like tense up.
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If you force yourself to do things when you feel like that,
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then that can be when you start to experience other challenges
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related to physical anxiety. But if it's just like, I really
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can't be bothered, but I'm doing it for a bigger reason, then
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it's the discernment piece of OK, well, is this really more
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about why I'm doing it and what I'm showing up for?
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And I think that's a really key part because while I really
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believe in US reclaiming our autonomy and our voice and our
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right to say no when we mean no, I also think that there can be
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this weird therapisation of these are my boundaries and I'm
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protecting my peace that can actually cause harm to other
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people. So there is again, that
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discernment piece in each situation where you look at the
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nuance of the full picture and use that to make a informed
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autonomous decision. And that's a really important
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point, right? Because what we do usually is we
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just say yes on rote or we just go through the motions because
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we think that's what we have to do.
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And that's what I'm trying to encourage us to move away from.
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I love that, but I and I especially love how you do say
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to use discernment because again, like even personally or
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what I watch, you know, for my daughter who's 17.
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So obviously, you know, there's lots of feelings and emotions
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behind like what you will and will not do.
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It is interesting because, because I think that's the part
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that's missing from so much of the dialogue.
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Like, yeah, of course, you know, my husband's like, so because
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there's a lot of talk like midlife people are like
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unhappily married because they've fallen into these
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systems. And he's like, so do we have to
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get divorced? Like, no, no, no.
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It's like, I like you still. I'm like, that's good.
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Like you got to find that middle ground that works for you.
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And I, I think like exposure to the fact that we can say no and
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that we have been conditioned in this way is great.
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But what you're saying is really hits the mark.
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It's sustainable. Yeah.
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And it's not about blowing your whole life up, because I
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actually think that what holds a lot of women back from doing
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this work is the fear that if they start unpicking and start
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examining what's going on, that suddenly they're going to be met
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with the truth of this huge thing.
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That's a huge thing to carry. And then they're going to have
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to change their entire life, which is unrealistic for a lot
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of people. It's terrifying for a lot of
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people, actually. It's more about the incremental
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steps of becoming more aware of who you are and the needs that
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you have as you as a precious being, and making choices for
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your own life based on your own needs, rather than constantly
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abandoning yourself and prioritizing everybody else's
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needs instead. Quick pause because if you're
10:19
listening to Roar, I have a feeling you're exactly the kind
10:22
of person I write for. I send out a sub stack
10:24
newsletter where I go a little deeper, more personal stories,
10:27
behind the scenes thoughts, and honestly, some of the things we
10:30
don't always say out loud here. If you want to stay connected
10:33
between episodes, you can find it at Roar with
10:36
danielledavies.substack.com. I'd love to have you there.
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And now back to your regularly scheduled podcast, back to the
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the systemic issue of palatability.
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Can you, I mean, I, I think I know the answer, but I'd love to
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hear your words describing it. Who benefits from this training
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of women's palatability? If we look at what the outcome
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of that is, so first of all, women's unpaid labour is a multi
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trillion dollar industry. We literally, our unpaid labour
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literally holds up the entire system, not just in the UK, not
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just in the US, if you look at it as a global issue.
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So if we woke up and we were like, do you know what?
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Actually, I'm not going to do all of this unpaid labour, thank
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you. The world would literally stop
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operating because it relies on us to be in servitude.
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That's number one. Number two, the industries that
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profit directly profit from women's insecurities.
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We've got the beauty industry, the Wellness industry, the
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fashion industry, the Pharmaceutical industry,
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actually, because there's a huge market for selling drugs to
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women who are completely burnt out and completely overwhelmed
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to help them calm down. Like Valium as mother's little
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helper. The alcohol.
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I'm like just laughing internally because it's just,
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it's like, so when you say it and you say it so well, but when
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you put it all out, it's like so preposterous.
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But keep going, keep going. I mean, yes, because we're all
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just fed antidepressants and anti anxiety medications because
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of course we're exhausted and of course we're.
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Yeah. Well, autoimmune disorders,
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which have been directly linked to repressed emotion, are
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overwhelmingly impact women, and burnout overwhelmingly impacts
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women. We have this mass exodus from
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the workplace, which is being positioned as a ambition gap,
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like it's just ridiculous. But then again, to go back to
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the industries that profit from women, we've sort of got the
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Pharmaceutical industry. We've got the fact that women
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account for, but I think it's by 20-30 they predict that women
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will account for 96% of household spending.
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So women literally the system relies on us to operate as the
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commodity of it. And also we're the ones that are
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buying it. So we have both the product and
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the buyer. And when you really start to
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understand that if we, if you or I or any of us woke up tomorrow
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and we were like, I don't need any of this stuff to be happy.
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I don't need this new beauty regime.
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I don't need to look like how I've been told I need to look.
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None of that stuff. I actually just need connection
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and rest and community and nature.
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Like all of these things that are fundamental to human
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happiness, our literal biological system has been set
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up for it. And then we just stopped buying
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into the system literally physically like money buying the
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system. Well then the entire system
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would collapse. Which is the reason why there is
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a backlash every single time that there is any kind of female
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empowerment movement because they know that we there is multi
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trillion dollar industries built on the back of women's
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insecurity and they have engineered it.
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So as soon as they start to see women being like, actually, I
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don't need this. And actually whatever it might
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be, there will always be a backlash to that.
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And we see that all the time. And it makes me kind of smile
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when I see the rise of misogyny in a really weird way, because I
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think they must be terrified. If they're going so far down
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this weird misogynistic twisty root, then they must be
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terrified. We must be gaining power because
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otherwise they wouldn't be bothering.
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Do you feel like it's purposeful or like almost habitual on that
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end as well? Do you know what I mean?
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Like we're so ingrained that it's some well, OK, so yesterday
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I was in Manhattan and when we woke up in the morning, somebody
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turned a television on and there was this old movie.
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And of course, I get, I'm like, can't have something on in the
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background. I'm like, who?
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Like, that's it. I'm.
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It's like I'm in a trance. But it was called Adam's Rib.
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And it's from 1939. It's with Katharine Hepburn and
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Spencer Tracy, And in it they're both lawyers.
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I mean, this is 1939. It's almost 100 years ago.
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They're both lawyers. And it's a husband versus a wife
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case and she's representing a woman who shot her husband after
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he basically abused her. And it's sort of, I mean, it's
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sort of comedic the way they're playing it.
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I mean, it is 1939. But interestingly, it wasn't
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dated like like the themes were all the same.
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And I'm like, so it almost seems like, you know, there's this
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movement for women and then misogyny shows its head and
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we're back down. And then there's this movement.
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And I'm just wondering from what you've done in your research and
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talking to people, do you feel like it's purposeful or do you
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feel like it's partially the their own internal patterns?
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I think that it's a bit of both that originally it was certainly
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purposeful. There was the, if you look at,
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and in my book, I do the big, the first part of my book is all
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looking at the history, the literature, the stories that
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have been created, the narratives woven throughout the
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last. Well, I look at right, right
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back at the beginning of where the patriarchy was supposedly
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created and what that means and why that is and how interwoven
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now patriarchy, capitalism and white supremacy are as a system
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of oppression. And a lot of that comes from the
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stories that were told, which on the one hand is that men were
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the ones that told the stories. So there, there was only really
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one narrative and whenever women were in part of that narrative,
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they were being told through the lens of the, the male lens
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anyway. But then equally there is
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evidence all the way back to the Greek times of women having no
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voice and, and how dangerous it was for a woman to have a voice.
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And we've seen throughout history what happens when women
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have a voice or when women connect to their innate power,
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IE our cycles, the cycles of nature are ability to use nature
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for medicinal purposes. All of these things contributed
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to the witch trials. And over and over and over and
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over again, over thousands of years, women have been shown
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not, not even conditioned. It's evidence.
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This is what happens if a woman is seen.
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This is what happens if a woman is heard.
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It is unsafe. We have that programming within
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our biology and within the narratives that we continue to
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be fed. And in the last 100 years,
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things have actually changed at an alarming rate in so, so many
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ways, in a way that's never, ever happened before.
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And we're kind of on this like Jolty roller coaster, Like it's
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it's been less than 50 years since women were allowed to have
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a mortgage on their own, but not, sorry, not even a yeah, a
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mortgage. It's been 50 years since women
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and not that much longer than that since they were allowed to
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have a bank account. Of course, then we've got the
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vote. In the world today, there's
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still a lot of countries where none of those things are
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available to women, where women are still killed for being seen
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and having a voice. And so I, I do think that some
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of it is conditioning and that women ourselves are also
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responsible for it. Because I know actually,
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honestly, as many, if not more misogynistic women than I do
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misogynistic men. So we can talk about that if you
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want. A lot of.
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Feelings about that. And I think that the systems of
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patriarchal oppression impact men as much, just in different
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ways as they impact women because they're so outdated.
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We're looking at 12,000 years. It's, we live in a very weird
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time where roles are really distorted and nobody really
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knows what they're supposed to be doing and it causes confusion
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and anger and we're not always very good at having good
19:25
communication through that. So we blame each other.
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But equally, I do 100% believe that the people who are in power
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know exactly what they're doing, and I absolutely believe that
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they are purposefully creating polarisation and civil unrest to
19:45
distract from the real problem, which is completely insane
19:50
capitalism and the oppressive systems that are actually
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impacting like 99% of us and the 1% who are benefiting from that.
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Oh, you know, it is really too bad that you're ever going to
20:05
have to hang up because I could have you on the phone all day,
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all day, all day. I have, I have so much to say,
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but I, I'm, I'm going to try to not, I want to go back to the
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one thing you said that it's also women who are, you know, I
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look at it as you're holding down other women, right?
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I mean, if there are women who are part of this patriarchy, who
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are the ones shushing you? And in fact, most of the
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shushing that's been done in my life has been from other women
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because we are like you said, it's, it's almost like a fear
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thing. So you can't have one of you,
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you know, speaking out. We have to kind of stay together
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and like be quiet. Can you talk about this?
20:46
And like the idea also of almost self abandonment so that there's
20:52
belonging. Yeah, I think we have been
20:56
conditioned to believe that fitting in equals belonging.
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Fitting in does not equal belonging.
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I'm sure we've all had those experiences where we're
21:05
technically part of the tribe, but we feel so lonely and so
21:10
disconnected and so fractured within ourselves.
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Self abandoned, fitting in, trying to fit in will only ever
21:18
lead to self abandonment. But we have, many of us have
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been taught, especially by if, if we have boomer parents who
21:26
have grown up in a really weird time because they're they've,
21:31
they've been brought up by parents who were either in the
21:34
war or whose parents were probably their, his parents were
21:37
in the First World War. And that's like insanely
21:41
different time to what we have today.
21:44
And they were the first ones as women that were taught that they
21:47
could have it all and that they could have a career and that
21:49
they could go out while at the same time having these really
21:52
traditional roles and expectations drilled into them
21:55
by their parents. It's like this cognitive
21:58
dissonance of how you're supposed to be as a woman.
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So our generation have been taught on the one hand you've
22:04
got to be acceptable and you've got to be palatable, but then at
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the other time you also have to be exceptional and you have to
22:12
be achiever and you have to be an achiever.
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And you can't just be a stay at home mother because that's a
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waste of a life and all of these things.
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And that is a that is a complete like these two things can't
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exist together. You cannot be acceptable and
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exceptional. The two things cancel one
22:29
another out because acceptable is showing the line, doing what
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everybody else does, doing what people expect of you.
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Exceptional by its very nature is being one-of-a-kind shining.
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So it like, of course, we're in this confused, like what the
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hell? And I think women, because we've
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been conditioned to believe we have to fix everything and have
22:52
all of the answers and have it all put together, that cognitive
22:56
dissonance creates so real fracture within us that we don't
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know how to communicate effectively.
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And so then it plays out as you've broken the social
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contract. You behaving in that way is
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unacceptable to the social contract and therefore holding a
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mirror up against me and what I'm supposed to be doing.
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And so I'm going to judge you for it and project all of my
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fears and insecurities onto you and make you pull you down a peg
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or two in response to that. Oh my God, I cannot wait to get
23:28
your book. I can't wait when you another
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thing you talk about too, is that it this isn't just this
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isn't just happening, it's happening internally in our
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body. So it's not just like a mindset
23:39
habit, like I will do these things.
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It's it's a physical you're you're feeling, you're not just
23:44
thinking yourself small. Your body has learned to kind of
23:49
cower, your body has learned to do these things.
23:52
What is shrinking actually feel like in the body and why was it
23:55
important to you? I know there's like somatic
23:57
practices in your work. Why was that important to you?
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How did you even kind of conceptualize this?
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Sorry, that's like 3 questions at the same time, OK.
24:08
Well, they all link together. So like the the experience of
24:13
shrinking actually is so much more physical than it is
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psychological. Like of course we might
24:19
experience it as loneliness or fear or sadness or whatever kind
24:25
of emotion comes up. But physically it feels like
24:30
like having someone putting weight again on your chest, like
24:33
the feeling of being trapped and like your whole body is kind of
24:39
clenching so tightly. And we might say that that's
24:43
anxiety and women are so prone to anxiety, but actually this is
24:51
your body like feeling constantly under threat because
24:54
we're social creatures, we are conditioned, biologically
24:59
conditioned to not be kicked out of the tribe.
25:03
We it's dangerous for our safety to be kicked out of the tribe.
25:08
So when we have that feeling of being ostracized or what have
25:11
you, or the fear of that it, it occurs to us as a, as a physical
25:16
threat. But then the other thing that I
25:19
find really interesting is where we have our response to that.
25:24
So fight, flight, freeze. And then there's the phone
25:27
response, which people refer to as people pleasing, which is
25:31
also now demonised. I'm recovering people pleaser
25:35
and is really interesting again, because there's an expectation
25:39
of you to sacrifice yourself for everyone else.
25:42
But if you're a people pleaser, that's a really bad thing.
25:45
And people pleasing is just your body's response to dysregulated
25:50
nervous system. And so we are taught from a
25:54
really young age the way to keep the peace is just to do what
25:56
everyone, everyone asks us to do.
25:58
The way to make sure that you're safe is just to say yes when you
26:01
really mean no. And all of those things are
26:04
people pleasing, and you can't just think your way out of that
26:07
because it's been ingrained into you since you're so young.
26:11
It's a safety mechanism. It's literally what your body
26:15
has understood to stay alive. It doesn't know the difference
26:18
between dying, potentially dying, and having someone be
26:23
annoyed with you. It registers them as the same
26:25
thing. So you're having this constant
26:28
state of like, who? And it feels so overwhelming
26:31
because your body's reading it like an actual physical threat.
26:36
And I wish people understood that more because it's become so
26:41
thrown around now and demonized. And it's so unfair because we
26:46
live in a society that conditions us into it to just
26:50
expect that you're going to be able to think your way out of
26:53
it. Like, if that worked, my God,
26:54
Like how? How amazing would it be if we
26:56
could just all think our way out of neuroses like you can't think
26:59
your way out of a newer seats? No, you can't, despite many,
27:03
many years of trying. It's interesting too, because I
27:08
feel like, you know, even sometimes some of one of the
27:12
things that I keep reading about different just it just keeps
27:14
coming up. It's not necessarily because I'm
27:16
I'm of course everything you're saying I'm relating to like
27:18
people that I know or this or that and I'm and making
27:22
everything personal. But my sister has always been
27:24
like I'm guilty of being such a people pleaser And and she is,
27:27
I'm more guilty of and guilty. See.
27:30
Look at us. I'm more on it.
27:33
I am more someone who is negotiating the peace of the
27:38
people at the table and like conversations, but how you find
27:43
yourself in these roles and you're just locked in?
27:46
And that's still, that's still a phone response because you're
27:49
trying to manage the emotional state of the people around you.
27:53
Like it comes from the same thing.
27:55
It's just a different manifestation of that thing.
27:58
And you asked me why somatics. So I spent an awful long time
28:04
after many, many, many, many years of self abuse and
28:08
addiction, doing every kind of therapy you could possibly
28:11
imagine. And I found that talk therapy
28:13
did not work for me at all because it just re traumatized.
28:18
I couldn't think my way out of my crazy it's.
28:20
Like thinking your way out of it, right?
28:22
Like I just it like all I I started to intellectize my
28:26
crazy. I had like the language to
28:29
excuse myself from my crazy, but I couldn't shift it and because
28:35
it was rooted in my body. So when I discovered somatics,
28:38
which is all about connecting to the body, understanding how the
28:42
nervous system works, understanding how to regulate
28:45
yourself, and also knowing that whatever you're experiencing is
28:50
a really normal reaction. Because when we psychoanalyze
28:53
ourselves, we make ourselves wrong.
28:55
We're like, I shouldn't be a people pleaser.
28:58
I should try harder. I even like things like I'm
29:01
working hard. I'm not working so hard.
29:05
Yeah, like the shoulds, the shoulds, like I should, I
29:07
should. It's like it's such an
29:09
obligation. It makes you just start off at a
29:11
negative. Yeah.
29:13
And when we realized that actually we live in a completely
29:15
batshit crazy world that is not designed for the way that our
29:20
systems, our physical systems and our social systems were
29:23
supposed to operate, we are in every single way operating
29:27
against what our biology is supposed to be operating.
29:30
Of course we feel like this. Of course we're behaving like
29:34
this. And you start to give yourself
29:36
some more grace. And then those intrusive
29:39
thoughts, which I had real challenges with, can start to
29:43
get quieter because it's not, oh, it's no longer me that's
29:47
default like a defunct. I'm not defunct.
29:50
I'm not broken. The system is defunct and
29:52
broken, though. How do I navigate that with as
29:56
much care and as much grace for myself and others as possible?
30:01
The first thing to do is to regulate my nervous system
30:03
because nobody can function properly when they're in that
30:07
heightened dysregulated state because you're just cortisol.
30:10
You're just living on cortisol all the time.
30:14
And it not only is it terrible for your health, but it's
30:16
terrible for your happiness, for your interrelational dynamics,
30:21
your ability to focus all of these things.
30:23
So when I realized that, and I did my own process with that, I
30:27
then trained as a semantics coach so that I could bring that
30:31
into my work because I work a lot with women who want to use
30:34
their voice and become more visible.
30:35
And I realized again, the idea of like, just get visible is
30:39
rubbish. Because if you haven't got a
30:41
nerve, a regulated nervous system, then you will find a way
30:45
to sabotage yourself. Or someone will come and say
30:48
something horrible because people do, and it will throw you
30:51
off and you'll go back into hiding again.
30:54
And actually, that regulated state is so essential for being
30:58
able to be sustainably visible and well resourced at the same
31:03
time. I love your process of this and
31:09
I love how you came to it when you you know, based on your own
31:13
experience and obviously becoming less palatable,
31:17
although I find you to be quite palatable to me, yes.
31:21
Like, did becoming more visible cost you anything personally or
31:25
surprise you in ways you didn't expect?
31:29
It cost me quite a lot of friendships over the last couple
31:33
of years, particularly last year.
31:35
I had quite a few of who I considered to be really close
31:40
friends break up with me in very dramatic, very upsetting ways.
31:46
And my first thought when multiple things happen and I'm
31:50
the common denominator is to think what I must be the problem
31:52
because I'm the one that's there for all of these different
31:55
things. And I think probably it's true
31:59
actually that I was the, I was that common denominator.
32:03
And really it was because in the past I used to, I used to have a
32:07
bit of a saviour complex. And so my friendships were built
32:10
around me being like, I can save you, I can be there for you.
32:14
And the more that I grew into who I am, the less I felt the
32:20
need to do that. And I was like, it's not my
32:22
place to fix you. It's not my place to run in and
32:25
save you when stuff happens for you.
32:27
And I think that created a real tension in those relationships
32:31
that relied on that dynamic from me.
32:34
And they then mistook my new boundaries for suddenly thinking
32:40
I was better than them or, or something like that.
32:43
They created a whole story around that, and that was really
32:46
painful. But I also expected it because
32:49
when you start to change and you start to grow into yourself, the
32:54
people who were your people pleasing to please are no longer
32:59
pleased. And then they start, then they
33:03
start projecting all of their own shit that they're not
33:06
dealing with themselves back on to you.
33:09
So it does happen, though. I mean like this thing that we
33:12
fear, you know, being left by a friend or a spouse or a child or
33:19
your neighbor. It does happen.
33:20
Like being yourself can be scary, right?
33:25
There are people who what? Why is it still worth it?
33:30
Well, first of all, I would say that honestly, it's not that it
33:33
can happen, it's that it will happen.
33:35
You will find that when you're, especially if you've been
33:39
pretending really, really a lot and you're allowing yourself to
33:42
shed these layers and suddenly you're being your true self will
33:45
feel really confronting to the people who are used to you being
33:48
a different way. That's normal.
33:52
There is a whole chapter in my book called Navigating other
33:54
people, which is because this is like this is, this is definitely
34:00
going to happen. And a lot of people who I work
34:03
with hold themselves back because they don't want to have
34:08
to deal with other people no longer liking them or judging
34:11
them or whatever it might be. And I find that really sad
34:15
because the number one regret of the dying is living life to
34:19
somebody else's expectations. So at the end of it all, when
34:23
you strip it all back and nothing else matters, the number
34:26
one thing that people regret is that they didn't live their own
34:30
lives and nothing, nothing. No Sandra from down the road
34:36
talking about you behind your back, no, your mum being put off
34:40
that you're no longer doing all the things that you were doing
34:43
that she was relying on. Like no thing, no other person
34:48
is worth you getting to the end of your life and looking back
34:52
with that level of regret. You're so good, OK, for thank
34:58
you, thank you. And I and I couldn't agree with
35:01
you more. But I do think like there is
35:04
and, and I guess women can expect, you know, or, or anybody
35:07
who's shedding something that's not authentic or speaking up for
35:11
the first time. And they've maybe not done it
35:13
before or they've, they've seemed to go along to get along
35:16
and, and finally, it's too much. And I think that that's
35:19
happening a lot, by the way, right now politically.
35:22
I mean, it's been happening, but it's like really, really, really
35:25
happening right now in the US And if anybody still likes us
35:30
outside the US, there's. A lot of great things about the
35:34
US, the people. There's a lot of.
35:36
Great, you have some issues. Yeah, so it's like, but and so
35:39
there's so much infighting too, because so many people for so
35:44
long, you know, I mean, the two rules you grew up with, if you
35:47
have boomer parents are you don't talk about politics and
35:50
you don't talk about religion. Those are the 2 things and it's.
35:52
Like you're not allowed to talk about money either, but that
35:55
might be a British thing. Actually, I think Americans love
35:57
talking about money. We talk about money a little bit
36:00
more, but maybe we just don't even talk about how we don't
36:02
talk about money. You know, there is a lot of talk
36:04
about money and how much we have or don't or don't sadly.
36:10
But but now like, you know, it's gotten to the point in so many
36:15
people from what I would like to say, my side of the of the aisle
36:20
or my side of the world view are saying, you know, you must talk
36:25
about politics because everything is political.
36:27
So there's really no way to separate this there.
36:30
Every single thing from where the meat is placed at the
36:33
grocery store to where you get your coffee.
36:37
Everything's food related for me right now, but it's all
36:39
political. So you of course you're talking
36:41
about it, but so there are so many people who for the longest
36:44
time have not said a word. They've literally gone on and
36:46
now they're saying something and people are like, whoa, I don't,
36:50
you know, I used to like you when you weren't like this.
36:53
And it's so it can't, it doesn't can be, you're right.
36:57
It is going to happen even if it's super small and it's going
37:01
to hurt like that's the other part.
37:03
It it is going to hurt like. It's going to hurt, yeah.
37:07
But you can come through on the other end.
37:11
Yeah, and that's, that's what I'm taking away.
37:15
Yeah. And that's why having tools and
37:18
the the book is is really a workbook.
37:21
Every chapter has exercises that build on one another so that
37:26
when we get to the part where so but the first chapter is going
37:30
to make you so angry and wake you up so much to how insane the
37:35
whole situation is and hopefully give you empathy for your own
37:41
ways that you have abandoned yourself and also others.
37:43
Because again, we talked about internalized misogyny in women.
37:47
That's also conditioning. It's not to say women are bad
37:50
and even those who've done some nasty thing, I've been one of
37:54
those nasty people who've tried to pull other people down
37:56
because of my insecurities. I think we we've all been there.
37:59
At some point, you start to have more grace with yourself and
38:02
more compassion. By the time it gets to the part
38:05
of now actually taking some action and like really releasing
38:09
your true self, you're more resourced to do that.
38:13
And I think that resourcing yourself and again, going back
38:15
to the nervous system, regulating that, being prepared
38:20
for the fact that somebody might not like it, but that doesn't
38:24
mean that's your problem. And it doesn't even mean that
38:27
they don't like you even in the moment that it might feel like
38:31
they don't like you because they're having a real extreme
38:34
reaction to something. It always says something much,
38:37
much more about them than it does about you.
38:38
And when you start to understand that I'm not responsible for
38:42
other people's emotions and reactions, but I am responsible
38:46
for how I choose to move through the world.
38:49
And especially in the context of things like religion.
38:52
Like, again, would you rather just be silent and watch all of
38:57
the horrors that are happening in the world and not be somebody
38:59
who uses their one precious life for that?
39:03
Just because you're worried that Uncle Fred will think that
39:07
you've become too political and it's not, it's not acceptable
39:10
behavior. Or would you rather learn how to
39:14
galvanized and rally and use your voice and use your beliefs
39:17
for good? Like that's, that's a that's a
39:21
big thing for in the work that I do is how do we use our voices
39:24
as a chorus to come together to make a difference?
39:28
Because we really need to now that the world needs women
39:31
particularly to wake up. Stop behaving batshit crazy and
39:37
voting for people who are like actual frigging sex offenders
39:41
And like I'm sorry, I shouldn't have got.
39:45
I mean, we're laughing because it's so absurd.
39:47
I actually just asked someone yesterday was like, is there
39:49
still a like, you know, the onion?
39:51
I'm like, is there still the onion?
39:53
Because what do they have? There's no need there anymore.
39:56
Everything is the onion. I know.
39:58
And, and again, I, I, I think it's really important with
40:02
politics because it, it can SAP. There's so much nuance.
40:06
There's like it's like this. Right and wrong, good and bad in
40:11
the general public is to me not very helpful because again, it's
40:15
infighting when nobody, nobody, nobody that you come to in the
40:19
street is the problem. The problem is the people who
40:23
are causing all of this issues and they are manipulating
40:27
people. And some people can see that and
40:31
some people cannot see that. But that is what's happening.
40:33
And I really, really believe that the only way that we can
40:37
actually solve this is to stop blaming one another and start
40:40
coming together to even in our differences, even in our, I
40:45
don't actually agree with what you believe about this, but I
40:49
can see the humanity in you. Let's come together, let's share
40:52
our stories and create a new world that's actually going to
40:57
work for everybody. Because let's be honest, this
40:59
isn't working for anybody. Exactly.
41:03
They're they're doing just fine. They don't need your book, but
41:05
everybody else does because and and you know, even to have that
41:09
conversation to say we're I didn't just raise my flag and
41:12
say, now I believe this. So you're wrong.
41:14
It's not it's now what do you do with that?
41:16
And and say, like, how can you come together and how can you
41:20
communicate? And I think you really do have
41:23
to have these resources that you're providing to kind of do
41:30
that, that to be introspective enough to be able to be
41:34
yourself, you know what I mean? To have those because those are
41:37
really vulnerable conversations. And a lot of people, you know,
41:40
they're good at the fight. Like, you know, it's almost like
41:44
a little performative. Like I'm here now, I'm, I can
41:46
speak up and it's the fight, but there's the next step.
41:49
It's not supposed to just you have to get there.
41:52
And I think that that's something that, I mean, from the
41:55
sounds of it, that's what beyond palatable will help people do in
41:58
the future. So good timing.
42:01
Yeah, I hope so. I mean, it definitely will help
42:04
you to come home to yourself and to navigate tricky dynamics
42:12
better to find your own truth as well.
42:16
Because imagine if you've spent so long pretending that you're
42:20
fine about something that actually deep down is really,
42:23
really not fine for you. How lonely you would feel in
42:27
those situations. And like, yes, you might have to
42:30
lose a few people along the way, but then you, what more can you,
42:33
what more can you gain? Who could you meet?
42:36
If you're being true to yourself, if you're shining your
42:39
light fully, other people can find you.
42:41
And and that can bring a whole nother opportunity in your life.
42:46
And I will always have an undercurrent motivation because
42:50
I believe so strongly that there is no problem that can't be
42:53
resolved through effective communication, that we should be
42:57
using our voices. And I will should on this.
42:59
I do believe we should be using our voices because we have got
43:03
the freedom and privilege as women in the West today and a
43:07
lot of women in the world do not.
43:09
I think we absolutely should be using our voices for justice and
43:13
equality. And I do not think it's
43:15
controversial to say that you stand for justice and equality
43:18
and it's become an insane world that we live in that that is
43:22
seen as some kind of political controversial thing to say.
43:26
And I do believe that we have a responsibility to do that.
43:29
And that's one part of it. But you also have a
43:32
responsibility to yourself to be true to yourself.
43:35
And then you can live in in a joyful and aligned way.
43:40
And it doesn't mean you have to blow up your marriage, it it
43:43
just means taking the steps to find alignment in a way that's
43:48
true to you. Absolutely.
43:50
I'm I'm really excited about this, but you're you're bringing
43:53
me back to the very first thing that I said, which are what are
43:56
some of the other ways that people can work work with you
43:59
and wait, hold on. I have it written down.
44:01
So I'm going to look the self-expression sessions and the
44:04
mastermind. Can we?
44:06
I know you've got to go soon, but can you touch base on what
44:08
each of those are and how people can access you?
44:12
Sure. So the self-expression sessions
44:15
are live events that I run throughout the UK.
44:19
We just had one in Bristol and they were created from belief
44:25
that everything is more joyful when we're true to ourselves.
44:29
And also that business sucks sometimes because there's so
44:33
much bullshit. I'm really really, I'm really,
44:36
really sick of this whole 10X your income, 6 figure boss bitch
44:42
culture that I see and that I, I really think it, it damages
44:46
people so much because we believe we need to look and be a
44:50
certain way to be successful. And I'm living proof that that
44:53
is not true. So I see it as kind of like like
44:58
a variety show of weird and wonderful creative ways to
45:03
connect with yourself. And it depends on the city that
45:07
the city kind of influences how I choose to shape the event.
45:10
But we always have lots of audience participation and
45:15
creativity, always have some level of poetry in there,
45:18
usually some singing and talks around.
45:23
From people who have spent a long time believing that they
45:25
were a weirdo and that they could never make anything of
45:28
their lives to actually the most shining beacons of amazing,
45:32
fabulousness that you've ever met.
45:34
And how they did it and what that means for them, their
45:37
business, their lives. So it's really opportunity for
45:41
people to get creative, explore and experiment and be inspired
45:47
to to be who they are really is my kind of one thing that I hope
45:52
people get from it. OK, real quick, if you're
45:55
listening and thinking more women should be hearing
45:57
conversations like this, the best way to support the show is
46:01
just to follow or subscribe wherever you are.
46:03
It really does help it reach more people.
46:05
Thanks so much. OK, back to the show.
46:07
I know you're going to do a book tour.
46:09
You're doing a book tour. Is that going to be in the US at
46:11
all? Well, the problem is is that I'm
46:14
boycotting the US on account of your president.
46:17
That is, that is a problem. That is a problem.
46:21
I have nothing. I did.
46:24
OK, go ahead. But I to be I probably, I do
46:30
believe it's really, it's really needed and that the US is
46:33
absolutely the perfect place for it.
46:35
And I've got so many people I love very dearly over over on
46:38
your side of the world. So never say never.
46:42
Right now it's kind of shady. I.
46:44
Understand. Never I.
46:46
Understand and well, in your book tour, at least in the UK.
46:49
So they're but they're gonna be separate.
46:51
It's obviously you're not. I was like, if you come to the
46:53
US, you can, you know, back-to-back it do like the,
46:55
the, the, the sessions and the book tour and all this stuff.
47:00
But I'm kind of doing that in the UK, so I'm doing a lot of.
47:03
So I'm doing quite a few of them in bookshop.
47:05
So that'll be more like your average kind of so boring, but
47:09
it will be more like what you'd expect from a book tour.
47:11
And then I'm doing some that are sessions that are more
47:14
outlandish with burlesque and music and protest.
47:18
One of them is going to be like a big protest where we make all
47:20
of our own signs and have a photo shoot.
47:24
And so I've I've got quite a lot of work to do.
47:29
So much fun though, so much fun. So it's like an empowering
47:32
event, it sounds like. Yeah, they are.
47:35
Really, really. Every time I do them I I am
47:39
reminded of why they're important and actually what I
47:41
was planning to do because I'm just one person and I'll be
47:45
going on maternity leave in July anyway.
47:48
So exciting. I was actually planning to turn
47:51
self-expression sessions into a community initiative where I
47:57
create all of the assets and train people on the format, but
48:01
give it to people in different communities to run their own
48:04
with some quality assurance check insurance.
48:08
Because it's for me, it's not like I don't need to be the one
48:10
that owns it. I just think it's a really
48:12
important model and concept that I'd love to see all over the
48:16
world. So maybe you could run a
48:17
self-expression session for me, Danielle.
48:20
And I'm, I'm stuck here anyway in the US So yeah, I mean, I
48:24
don't mean stuck. I don't mean stuck, but you
48:26
know, I mean, in some ways I mean stuck.
48:27
But I'm here anyway, so there's no boycotting myself.
48:31
And that sounds great. And I always love is it like a
48:34
one day event? Is it a couple hours?
48:36
Is it multi day? It depends.
48:39
So most of the ones I've done have been evenings.
48:42
So 6 till 9, I did one that was a full day event, which was more
48:47
like a retreat day around the theme of taking up space, which
48:51
was beautiful. And but the evening ones are
48:53
easier to do. And I think those would be the
48:55
ones that I would send out on little missions around and
48:59
about. Yeah.
49:01
So that would be really phenomenal.
49:03
If you if you wanted to give that a test drive with me, we
49:06
will. Have to talk again.
49:07
I would love to try that because that's just very much up my
49:10
alley. But also, you have a mastermind
49:13
and now are you still going to have this?
49:16
Yes. So the mastermind is currently
49:20
running. I won't be taking any more into
49:25
it until next year, but it runs over a year.
49:27
It's all about voice and visibility.
49:31
And because my my background is in brand, so I also run an
49:35
agency that works with SMEs from non profit organisations to help
49:39
them with their storytelling. So I kind of take all of that
49:43
big business experience and then help founders to build their
49:48
business brand, and I don't like the term, but personal brand and
49:54
get themselves seen. And we do a lot of public
49:58
speaking training and kitchen training.
50:02
And how do you get yourself out there beyond social media?
50:05
So that's the brilliant mastermind.
50:07
And then I also run a program called She's Electric, which is
50:11
specifically public speaking, which I will be running again in
50:17
April through to June. Oh my gosh, you are so busy.
50:21
You are doing a million things. All of them are.
50:24
And I also, I love the names of them all like she's electric,
50:27
electric beach, unpalatable. They're just they're very much
50:31
they're very much in line with my way of thinking.
50:34
So it's all very palatable to me.
50:38
I include after, you know, when this all comes out, I'll include
50:41
all of this in the show notes. Is there anything else that you
50:44
want to share for women like who maybe just today are feeling
50:48
very much very palatable and not loving that feeling?
50:55
Is there one thing all of them today besides obviously get your
50:59
book, that would even prompt them to feel a little bit better
51:04
in their skin? There is a quote that I have in
51:09
my book that I have on my desk, which is I wish I could show you
51:14
when you are lonely or in darkness, the astonishing light
51:18
of your own being. And I wish that women could see
51:25
how phenomenally powerful they are just by being them.
51:31
And that none of those expectations, those desires that
51:38
you need to be a certain way, whether that's how you look or
51:41
how you're supposed to be, none of that actually matters.
51:46
And none of that is real or true.
51:50
And if we were able to see ourselves in the way that other
51:53
people see us, or if we were able to see ourselves in the way
51:55
that we truly are, then it would be, there would be absolutely
52:01
nothing that would stop us. And so that's that's the one
52:05
thing that I really wish that women understood was their
52:07
innate power. And I know that no matter who
52:10
you are, no matter where you were born, no matter what your
52:12
political assertion, I know that you are powerful because you are
52:15
a woman, because you're alive today as a woman.
52:19
And the second one is that I really wish that women would
52:21
stop seeing themselves as like lamps when there's only one
52:25
plug, plug socket. And if one person's shining,
52:29
then they must be using the plug socket.
52:31
And that means that we have to be in the dark because actually
52:34
we're fairy lights. And the more that we all are
52:37
lighting up, the brighter that we shine.
52:39
And I really think we need to realize that even though we have
52:43
been conditioned to see each other as competition, we
52:46
actually need one another and we need one another to shine.
52:49
And it's never been more important to take care of our
52:54
own shine, but also to be fierce, fierce advocate for
52:58
other women shine too. Oh my gosh, I just want to say
53:01
one last thing and then I'm hanging up.
53:04
Thank you for saying that. Because I, you know, I talked to
53:07
women. That's that's all I ever.
53:09
I mean, I have my family, but like all, all, all about women
53:13
and and sometimes I'll talk to women and I'm like, and there
53:17
are some Mean Girls in the club and some of the Mean Girls are
53:23
positioned as women who are lifting up other women.
53:27
But but in always. Seem to be, don't they?
53:31
It's weird. It's so scary because you're
53:33
like, wait a second, I thought we were just supposed to
53:37
automatically be friends. I actually, I'm not going to say
53:39
any names. I don't want to get sued.
53:40
I, there was a very famous woman who supposedly spoke for women
53:46
and was uplifting women and all this stuff.
53:48
And I read a profile from somebody who came to work for
53:52
this woman and was like so excited.
53:54
And she actually said that when she saw her, she actually, she's
53:58
like, I'm so horrified by this now.
54:00
Like in retrospect, because she wasn't this woman who was going
54:03
to, she just was kind of branded as that.
54:08
She hugged her. She just went right up and like
54:10
hugged her. She was so excited.
54:12
And the woman was like, not interested at all.
54:15
Not everybody's a hugger, but it was really that she wasn't
54:18
interested in. She was interested in shining a
54:21
light on herself. And and that's, you know what?
54:25
That's great. Go shine a light on yourself.
54:27
Like all the power to you, but don't don't ring the bell as
54:32
you're shining the light on everybody.
54:34
If that's not really what you want to do, it's OK.
54:37
It's OK to be selfish. Like, if that's what you want to
54:40
do, there's plenty of selfish guys out there and they don't
54:43
get any backlash for it. You know, don't say that that's
54:46
your thing and your platform. Because other women like are
54:50
attracted to that and they want, they want that.
54:52
We're yearning for that. We're yearning for that kind of
54:55
connection that uplifts us all. But thank you for actually being
55:01
that for real. It takes time, honestly.
55:04
Like I find myself regularly having like times of jealousy
55:11
that shows up that doesn't necessarily feel like jealousy.
55:14
It might show up as who does she think she is?
55:16
Like someone might be, yeah, doing really well with something
55:21
that I want to do really well with that I'm scared that I'm
55:24
not going to do really well with.
55:25
And my first thought is, well, it's not that.
55:29
Like, it's not that impressive or like, I'm like, do you know
55:32
what I mean? And then and it's there.
55:34
I feel it. I believe the story that I'm
55:37
telling myself. But then I can go, oh, this is
55:39
really interesting. This is because you're feeling
55:41
insecure and that woman's smashing it and you're comparing
55:45
yourself to her. Let's take a minute.
55:48
Does it mean that the feeling goes away?
55:50
But at least it means I don't act on that feeling.
55:53
I don't then go out and tell other people about how actually
55:56
she's really shit and like she's not really doodle, which is what
55:59
I would have done in the past. It would it would have turned
56:01
into some kind of a campaign. And I think that's what a lot of
56:05
women do without realizing it, is that we compare ourselves.
56:09
We feel really inadequate in response, and then we hurt each
56:14
other as a result of that feeling of inadequacy.
56:18
Well, you've really what you're claiming even just based on our
56:23
conversation, even prior to this conversation, we've interacted
56:26
and I've always gotten the sense that you are actually the real
56:29
deal and like, and so thank you because we need more of that and
56:33
and thank you we. Thank you too, because this
56:35
whole, everything that you're doing is about lifting up
56:38
women's voices. And I think there is no more
56:42
important time really to have platforms to tap for us to tell
56:45
our stories, for us to listen to one another's stories, for us to
56:49
come together as we are biologically meant to be
56:54
together in sisterhood. And we need that.
56:56
We do. Thank you so much for being
56:58
here. I'm going to let everybody go,
57:00
but thank you so much. Thank you.
57:04
I loved this conversation with Sophie.
57:07
I'm reading her book Beyond Palatable right now, and it
57:09
expands on so much of what we talked about here.
57:13
I love how she put language to something that so many of us
57:16
feel like, how so much of our lives can start to feel like
57:19
performance and how easy it is to lose touch with what's
57:22
actually true for us. And next week, we're taking that
57:26
idea out of the internal and into the spaces we move through.
57:30
We're talking about what it looks like when women create
57:32
environments where they don't have to shrink, explain, or
57:36
perform at all. With Siobhan Anderson, if you
57:38
are nodding along to this episode, share it with a friend.
57:41
That's how these conversations keep going.
57:43
See you next week on ROAR.