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Life After Extinction: Bringing Woolly Mammoths Back Via Artificial Wombs · Core Memory

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_01: We have to back up all life.
• 0:03
  SPEAKER_01: You know,
• 0:03
  it's forecasted that we're going to lose up to 50% of all
• 0:05
  biodiversity between now
• 0:06
  SPEAKER_01: and 2050.
• 0:07
  SPEAKER_01: So like current conservation works,
• 0:10
  SPEAKER_01: it just doesn't work at the speed of which we are eradicating things.
• 0:12
  SPEAKER_01: So we have to back up all life.
• 0:28
  Well,
• 0:29
  per usual,
• 0:29
  we're going to get a little weird on this episode,
• 0:34
  maybe extra weird.
• 0:36
  I am going to be joined by Ben Lamb,
• 0:38
  who is the co-founder and CEO of Colossal Biosciences.
• 0:43
  SPEAKER_02: You may have heard of them in the press.
• 0:45
  SPEAKER_02: They want to do nothing less than bring the woolly mammoth,
• 0:49
  SPEAKER_02: the dodo,
• 0:50
  SPEAKER_02: and a bunch of other animals back to
• 0:52
  SPEAKER_02: from extinction.
• 0:53
  SPEAKER_02: No small feat and full of controversy, as you can imagine.
• 1:00
  SPEAKER_02: The company was co-founded by George Church,
• 1:02
  SPEAKER_02: who is a world-famous scientist doing all kinds of weird genetic things.
• 1:07
  We're going to get into that,
• 1:08
  and I promise you,
• 1:10
  you shall be entertained.
• 1:15
  SPEAKER_02: Ben, thank you so much for joining us.
• 1:18
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you so much for having me.
• 1:19
  SPEAKER_01: I'm super excited to be here.
• 1:21
  SPEAKER_02: It's a pleasure, man.
• 1:24
  I've talked to George Church over the years who you co-founded
• 1:29
  this company with,
• 1:31
  SPEAKER_02: but I never had the chance to talk to you.
• 1:32
  SPEAKER_02: So this is exciting.
• 1:34
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, George is the best.
• 1:36
  If you've talked to George,
• 1:37
  you probably know that he's actually just as funny as he is smart.
• 1:40
  SPEAKER_01: So he's great.
• 1:42
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, that man, he's a wild man of science.
• 1:49
  For people who have never heard of Colossal,
• 1:52
  that feels like a very good place to start.
• 1:54
  It's about as ambitious and I'd say weird,
• 1:59
  but in a good and interesting way as you can get.
• 2:04
  SPEAKER_02: Can you explain the basics of what you guys are trying to do?
• 2:07
  Yeah,
• 2:07
  so Colossal is the world's first de-extinction and species
• 2:11
  preservation company.
• 2:12
  SPEAKER_01: So our goal is to use genetics and genetic rescue,
• 2:15
  SPEAKER_01: advanced embryology,
• 2:16
  SPEAKER_01: lasers,
• 2:17
  all these crazy things to essentially bring back extinct
• 2:20
  species or proxies for
• 2:22
  SPEAKER_01: those species
• 2:22
  SPEAKER_01: put them back into the wild in collaboration with governments,
• 2:26
  SPEAKER_01: indigenous people,
• 2:27
  SPEAKER_01: groups,
• 2:27
  SPEAKER_01: and others,
• 2:27
  SPEAKER_01: and then build those technologies,
• 2:29
  take some of those technologies that we build and apply some of
• 2:32
  them to human healthcare,
• 2:33
  SPEAKER_01: but then make the others available for free to conservation.
• 2:36
  SPEAKER_01: So we have this idea of like,
• 2:38
  SPEAKER_01: we can do these cool moonshot projects,
• 2:39
  SPEAKER_01: inspire the next generation,
• 2:41
  SPEAKER_01: help the ecosystems,
• 2:42
  SPEAKER_01: and then hopefully help existing animals as well.
• 2:45
  And so it's a complicated problem that we're trying to solve,
• 2:48
  but it's a pretty big one.
• 2:51
  SPEAKER_02: it's very big and there's a lot, lot to get into.
• 2:54
  I know I'm trying to give,
• 2:57
  I'm trying to bring people to down to earth on this a bit.
• 3:00
  SPEAKER_02: Um,
• 3:01
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 3:01
  the three animals in particular that you guys have called out
• 3:05
  so far that you want
• 3:06
  SPEAKER_02: to focus on first are the woolly mammoth,
• 3:09
  SPEAKER_02: the dodo and the Tasmanian tiger.
• 3:12
  SPEAKER_02: And as a half Australian, I'm, I'm all for the Tasmanian tiger effort.
• 3:17
  SPEAKER_02: Um,
• 3:19
  SPEAKER_02: People are going to have the very most obvious question.
• 3:22
  SPEAKER_02: Why would we want to bring, say, the woolly mammoth back?
• 3:26
  SPEAKER_01: So all these species that we're working on,
• 3:29
  SPEAKER_01: we do it through the lens of a systems model,
• 3:31
  SPEAKER_01: right?
• 3:31
  SPEAKER_01: So kind of like when humanity went to the moon,
• 3:33
  a lot of innovations came from that and inventions came from
• 3:37
  that that have helped humanity.
• 3:38
  Like some of the core tech that was invented on humanity's
• 3:43
  pursuit of the stars
• 3:44
  SPEAKER_01: allows us to have this conversation right now,
• 3:46
  SPEAKER_01: which is amazing.
• 3:47
  SPEAKER_01: And so when you can work on these big,
• 3:48
  SPEAKER_01: hard problems,
• 3:50
  SPEAKER_01: you have to innovate across genetic engineering,
• 3:52
  SPEAKER_01: computational biology,
• 3:53
  SPEAKER_01: in all these different areas.
• 3:55
  And it creates an opportunity just to develop new tools and
• 3:59
  technologies that could
• 4:00
  SPEAKER_01: be radically applied to conservation much,
• 4:03
  SPEAKER_01: much faster.
• 4:04
  SPEAKER_01: In all these species,
• 4:05
  there were anthropologic or human effects that caused these
• 4:08
  species to go extinct,
• 4:09
  SPEAKER_01: right?
• 4:09
  And so,
• 4:10
  you know,
• 4:11
  we thought this is an opportunity to build tech,
• 4:14
  undo the sins of the past.
• 4:15
  SPEAKER_01: But then we also thought,
• 4:16
  SPEAKER_01: well,
• 4:17
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 4:17
  SPEAKER_01: we can have these species if we do enough ecological modeling
• 4:20
  If we can rewild these species,
• 4:22
  maybe they can also help the ecosystem as well.
• 4:25
  And so for us,
• 4:26
  you know,
• 4:26
  these three species kind of made sense to start with.
• 4:29
  SPEAKER_01: And then hopefully over time with these successes,
• 4:32
  SPEAKER_01: we'll even branch into,
• 4:33
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 4:34
  SPEAKER_01: even weirder species.
• 4:36
  SPEAKER_02: Well, okay.
• 4:36
  SPEAKER_02: Something like the Tasmanian tiger, I can get.
• 4:40
  SPEAKER_02: Australia...
• 4:42
  SPEAKER_02: Has this issue where,
• 4:43
  SPEAKER_02: well,
• 4:43
  SPEAKER_02: so it's a natural predator and you have,
• 4:48
  SPEAKER_02: Australia is this crazy case where,
• 4:50
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 4:51
  SPEAKER_02: it's an island.
• 4:51
  And so every time someone brings a rabbit or a camel,
• 4:55
  they're crazy things.
• 4:56
  SPEAKER_02: Or tons of cats.
• 4:58
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 4:58
  SPEAKER_02: Decimating the landscape.
• 5:00
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 5:00
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 5:01
  SPEAKER_02: So let's get specific on that one.
• 5:04
  SPEAKER_02: You bring back the Tasmanian tiger.
• 5:06
  SPEAKER_02: What is that meant to look like?
• 5:08
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah,
• 5:08
  SPEAKER_01: so the goal is,
• 5:09
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 5:10
  SPEAKER_01: the Tasmanian tiger or thylacine here,
• 5:13
  SPEAKER_01: the rest of the world calls it Tasmanian tiger or Tasmanian wolf.
• 5:15
  SPEAKER_01: You probably refer to it more as the thylacine.
• 5:18
  SPEAKER_01: It was the apex predator, right?
• 5:20
  And so it was killed off in 1936 because the Australian
• 5:24
  government put a bounty on
• 5:25
  SPEAKER_01: its head because all of these sheep farmers...
• 5:28
  SPEAKER_01: were saying that the Tasmanian tigers were killing the sheep.
• 5:31
  SPEAKER_01: And in reality, they were stealing each other's sheep.
• 5:33
  SPEAKER_01: There's no proof.
• 5:35
  SPEAKER_01: I've read all the books.
• 5:35
  SPEAKER_01: It's a very Australian thing to do.
• 5:38
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it's a very Australian thing to do, right?
• 5:40
  SPEAKER_01: And now it's become almost like a mythos.
• 5:43
  SPEAKER_01: It's like the Yeti or Bigfoot, right?
• 5:45
  SPEAKER_01: And so...
• 5:47
  SPEAKER_01: And I was warned by Dr.
• 5:48
  SPEAKER_01: Andrew Pask that when we started pursuing the thylacine,
• 5:52
  SPEAKER_01: people would be calling me and saying,
• 5:53
  SPEAKER_01: I just saw one,
• 5:54
  SPEAKER_01: or I have hair from one,
• 5:56
  SPEAKER_01: or I have scat from one.
• 5:58
  SPEAKER_01: And Andrew warned me about this.
• 6:00
  SPEAKER_01: And it's so convincing.
• 6:01
  It's so steeped in the lore there that I get blurry photos and
• 6:06
  camera trap photos all the time.
• 6:08
  SPEAKER_01: And it's almost believable.
• 6:09
  SPEAKER_01: I've even fallen into the trap of saying...
• 6:11
  SPEAKER_01: Maybe they're still there.
• 6:12
  And Andrew Pass,
• 6:13
  who's at the University of Melbourne,
• 6:14
  is one of our partners on it.
• 6:15
  SPEAKER_01: It's like, no, Ben, don't fall into the trap.
• 6:17
  SPEAKER_01: Whatever you do, quit falling into the trap.
• 6:20
  SPEAKER_01: But when it was removed from the ecosystem,
• 6:22
  SPEAKER_01: right,
• 6:23
  SPEAKER_01: nothing has filled the ecological void that it had.
• 6:27
  And what we found is that when you remove a keystone species,
• 6:30
  specifically a large herbivore,
• 6:32
  SPEAKER_01: like a mammoth or an elephant or a keystone predator,
• 6:36
  you have this tropic downgrading effect where you have all
• 6:39
  these other kind of side
• 6:40
  SPEAKER_01: effects in this kind of butterfly effect that people don't think of.
• 6:44
  And so many of these like mezzanine level marsupials,
• 6:47
  like the Tasmanian devil,
• 6:49
  you know,
• 6:49
  um,
• 6:50
  SPEAKER_01: They either overpopulate,
• 6:52
  SPEAKER_01: they overindulge in certain vegetations and whatnot or other species,
• 6:57
  SPEAKER_01: or they,
• 6:58
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 6:58
  SPEAKER_01: it gives rise to certain sicknesses.
• 7:00
  SPEAKER_01: And so predators like the thylacine or like wolves in Yellowstone,
• 7:03
  SPEAKER_01: they have an energy expenditure ratio where...
• 7:08
  where they're only going after kill that they think they can make,
• 7:12
  right?
• 7:12
  SPEAKER_01: And so they're going after the young,
• 7:14
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 7:14
  SPEAKER_01: so that's a survival of the fittest moment,
• 7:17
  SPEAKER_01: the old,
• 7:18
  SPEAKER_01: so that's cleaning out the population,
• 7:19
  SPEAKER_01: or specifically the sick.
• 7:21
  SPEAKER_01: And right now,
• 7:22
  there's this terrible disease in Australia that's plaguing
• 7:26
  Tasmanian devils,
• 7:27
  SPEAKER_01: which is the only transmissible,
• 7:29
  SPEAKER_01: I mean,
• 7:29
  SPEAKER_01: talk about terrifying.
• 7:31
  SPEAKER_01: It's a transmissible facial tumor disease.
• 7:33
  SPEAKER_01: It's transmissible cancer, right?
• 7:35
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I've seen it.
• 7:37
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, these devils can't see, right?
• 7:39
  SPEAKER_01: And then they start transmitting.
• 7:40
  SPEAKER_01: But the devils were probably,
• 7:42
  SPEAKER_01: from everything that we can tell,
• 7:44
  were a large part of the thylacine's diet being right in the
• 7:47
  scale and size that
• 7:48
  SPEAKER_01: they'd eat.
• 7:48
  SPEAKER_01: And so,
• 7:49
  SPEAKER_01: most likely,
• 7:50
  devils that couldn't defend themselves or C-strait would
• 7:53
  probably be the ones
• 7:54
  SPEAKER_01: that'd be picked off.
• 7:55
  SPEAKER_01: And so,
• 7:55
  SPEAKER_01: We've seen this all over the world that when you remove a predator,
• 7:59
  new sicknesses and zoonotic diseases rise in populations that
• 8:03
  are typically the
• 8:04
  SPEAKER_01: prey of those predators.
• 8:05
  SPEAKER_01: So there's a lot of different ecological modeling that shows if we could
• 8:08
  SPEAKER_01: reintroduce the thylacine,
• 8:10
  SPEAKER_01: could it start to balance out that food web that's currently an issue?
• 8:15
  SPEAKER_01: We don't just rely on colossal, right?
• 8:17
  SPEAKER_01: We're the scientists working on the genetic side.
• 8:19
  We really rely on our 48 conservation partners that are in
• 8:22
  Australia and these
• 8:23
  SPEAKER_01: other countries saying,
• 8:24
  SPEAKER_01: yes,
• 8:25
  SPEAKER_01: here's peer-reviewed papers that says this is a good idea.
• 8:27
  SPEAKER_01: So it's not just our ideas on this in terms of rewilding.
• 8:32
  I want to get into the science and some other questions around
• 8:34
  what you talked about.
• 8:35
  SPEAKER_02: But before we do that, let's do the woolly mammoth as well.
• 8:38
  SPEAKER_02: I actually...
• 8:40
  had spent some time reading about and watching this documentary
• 8:44
  on this place
• 8:45
  SPEAKER_02: called Pleistocene Park.
• 8:46
  SPEAKER_02: It's in Siberia.
• 8:48
  There's these interesting Russian scientists who think along
• 8:53
  similar lines as you guys,
• 8:55
  SPEAKER_02: quite the characters.
• 8:56
  SPEAKER_02: Fascinating family up there.
• 8:59
  So they have this idea that you reintroduced these,
• 9:02
  and please correct me if I get this wrong.
• 9:04
  SPEAKER_02: It's been a while since I watched it,
• 9:06
  SPEAKER_02: but they have this idea that you reintroduced these large mammals.
• 9:11
  SPEAKER_02: And they help tamp down these grasslands, I think, right?
• 9:17
  It's all an effort to stop the permafrost from melting as
• 9:20
  climate change takes hold,
• 9:21
  SPEAKER_02: because obviously we're afraid that...
• 9:24
  SPEAKER_02: as that melts,
• 9:25
  SPEAKER_02: all kinds of weird things might be released into the,
• 9:28
  SPEAKER_02: into the environment,
• 9:30
  SPEAKER_02: um,
• 9:30
  SPEAKER_02: viruses and things that have been frozen for many,
• 9:33
  SPEAKER_02: many years.
• 9:33
  SPEAKER_02: Can you, okay.
• 9:34
  SPEAKER_02: So is that.
• 9:35
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 9:35
  SPEAKER_01: So you're totally directionally accurate on all this.
• 9:37
  SPEAKER_01: So it's the Zimovs in, uh, Northern Siberia and they're awesome.
• 9:42
  SPEAKER_01: You know, they're, they're very, I mean, they're very, very Russian.
• 9:45
  SPEAKER_01: I have not visited them yet because of the
• 9:48
  SPEAKER_01: geopolitical world that we currently live in.
• 9:50
  SPEAKER_01: I started this project before,
• 9:52
  SPEAKER_01: but George has visited them and seen Pleistocene Park and talked to them.
• 9:56
  SPEAKER_01: And their whole thesis is if you can do two things,
• 9:59
  if you can remove the carnivorous trees there that are not all
• 10:04
  trees are created equal,
• 10:05
  SPEAKER_01: not all plants are created equal from a carbon sequestration
• 10:07
  SPEAKER_01: carbon sequestration perspective, these trees are heavy, dark bark.
• 10:11
  SPEAKER_01: They almost act like heat lightning rods.
• 10:13
  SPEAKER_01: So they're collecting heat.
• 10:14
  SPEAKER_01: They're not storing a lot of carbon.
• 10:15
  SPEAKER_01: And then that heat's permeating down around the root structure.
• 10:19
  SPEAKER_01: And it's actually releasing, it's actually warming and releasing carbon.
• 10:23
  SPEAKER_01: So generally,
• 10:24
  SPEAKER_01: so if you can,
• 10:25
  SPEAKER_01: and they've been doing this with tractors and other large vehicles,
• 10:28
  but can they remove the carnivorous trees and can they
• 10:31
  introduce large coal
• 10:33
  SPEAKER_01: tolerant megafauna to
• 10:35
  that can eat and increases the nitrogen oxygen through defecation,
• 10:40
  right?
• 10:41
  In areas that you've got bison and oxen and muskox and even
• 10:45
  elephants and rhinos,
• 10:46
  SPEAKER_01: you end up having these grasslands,
• 10:49
  SPEAKER_01: which are also really carbon efficient,
• 10:51
  SPEAKER_01: right?
• 10:51
  SPEAKER_01: They're about six times more carbon efficient.
• 10:54
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, that's where I got it wrong.
• 10:55
  SPEAKER_02: So the idea is all these animals are tamping, they're walking across...
• 10:59
  SPEAKER_02: The grasslands and tamping down the trees from.
• 11:02
  They're trampling down the trees and removing trees and
• 11:05
  elephants do this all the
• 11:06
  SPEAKER_01: time in Africa.
• 11:07
  SPEAKER_01: So you, there's a lot like elephants love to be environmental modifiers.
• 11:11
  SPEAKER_01: They love, they love to knock down trees and whatnot.
• 11:14
  So the idea is that you can have these normal,
• 11:16
  these natural animals knocking down the trees.
• 11:18
  SPEAKER_01: And during the winter months,
• 11:21
  SPEAKER_01: packing the snows and the migratory patterns,
• 11:23
  they've done these scientific studies both in the Arctic as
• 11:25
  well as even in Africa.
• 11:27
  SPEAKER_01: In the areas where there's stampeding patterns,
• 11:31
  it packs it so tight that the night winds are able to permeate
• 11:35
  down into the soil,
• 11:37
  SPEAKER_01: or in this case,
• 11:37
  SPEAKER_01: the permafrost up there,
• 11:39
  SPEAKER_01: and actually make it colder.
• 11:40
  And they've seen that in areas where they've tested this in
• 11:43
  northern Siberia,
• 11:46
  SPEAKER_01: They've been able to lower ground temperatures by up to eight degrees,
• 11:50
  SPEAKER_01: which is great because in the winter months,
• 11:51
  SPEAKER_01: guess what happens?
• 11:52
  It takes a lot longer for those warm temperatures to permeate
• 11:57
  down that much deeper to go.
• 11:59
  SPEAKER_01: You know, we always talk about the 1.5 degree tipping point.
• 12:01
  SPEAKER_01: And so this is all modeled, right?
• 12:03
  SPEAKER_01: And so you've got some scientists,
• 12:05
  SPEAKER_01: there's about eight peer-reviewed papers that say,
• 12:07
  SPEAKER_01: if you reintroduce mammoths or other cold tolerant,
• 12:09
  SPEAKER_01: it will lower ground temperatures,
• 12:11
  SPEAKER_01: which I think generally most scientists agree with,
• 12:14
  and it will help with carbon sequestration because there's more
• 12:16
  carbon and more
• 12:18
  SPEAKER_01: methane stored in the Arctic than anywhere else,
• 12:20
  SPEAKER_01: right?
• 12:21
  SPEAKER_01: Now,
• 12:22
  SPEAKER_01: the other side is,
• 12:22
  and one of the things that Colossal is pretty good at is we've
• 12:26
  got 95 scientific
• 12:26
  SPEAKER_01: advisors and we work with 17 of the top universities,
• 12:29
  SPEAKER_01: not all science,
• 12:30
  SPEAKER_01: believe it or not,
• 12:31
  SPEAKER_01: Not all scientists agree on everything, even this topic, right?
• 12:34
  SPEAKER_01: And so we have other scientists that say, no, it won't do that.
• 12:38
  SPEAKER_01: It's a top-down environment.
• 12:39
  SPEAKER_01: It won't have the same impact, right?
• 12:41
  SPEAKER_01: George falls more on the Zimov side.
• 12:43
  We have other scientists like Lou Vidal and that falls more on
• 12:45
  the other side.
• 12:46
  But what we have found in kind of bringing these scientists
• 12:48
  together is that they
• 12:49
  all generally agree that a more biodiverse ecosystem with both
• 12:54
  predators and
• 12:55
  and large herbivores is more biodiverse and it will lead to
• 13:00
  more ecological
• 13:01
  SPEAKER_01: function in terms of nitrogen,
• 13:03
  SPEAKER_01: oxygen turnover,
• 13:05
  SPEAKER_01: more plants,
• 13:05
  SPEAKER_01: more grasslands and whatnot,
• 13:07
  SPEAKER_01: which will help.
• 13:08
  SPEAKER_01: So there is some debate on
• 13:10
  how big of the impact will be where you've got one side being
• 13:14
  the zoom officer says
• 13:14
  SPEAKER_01: it will save the world.
• 13:16
  SPEAKER_01: And then you've got other side saying it'll do something good,
• 13:19
  SPEAKER_01: but they both generally agree that it will,
• 13:21
  SPEAKER_01: it will help revitalize that ecosystem.
• 13:23
  And we know a revitalized ecosystem is much more efficient at
• 13:26
  carbon sequestration.
• 13:27
  SPEAKER_01: So I think the true data will be when we get there.
• 13:31
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 13:31
  SPEAKER_02: And so is your woolly mammoth effort,
• 13:35
  is that the main driver is to explore that thesis or are there
• 13:41
  other reasons we
• 13:42
  SPEAKER_01: would want woolly mammoths running around?
• 13:44
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 13:44
  So I think there's kind of three core reasons we want,
• 13:47
  you know,
• 13:47
  woolly mammoths running around.
• 13:49
  SPEAKER_01: One, to explore that thesis and to create a lineage of elephants.
• 13:52
  The second,
• 13:55
  the third cause of,
• 13:56
  leading cause of elephant death is human elephant conflict.
• 13:59
  SPEAKER_01: Like we are encroaching their land.
• 14:01
  SPEAKER_01: So
• 14:01
  A population of cold tolerant elephants that can exist in low
• 14:05
  population density areas,
• 14:07
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 14:07
  SPEAKER_01: removes one of the major drivers of elephant extinction.
• 14:12
  SPEAKER_01: So I think that's a kind of a halo effect.
• 14:14
  SPEAKER_01: So you can test the model and you can create...
• 14:17
  SPEAKER_01: more biodiverse ecosystem,
• 14:18
  and you can build an elephant population that can live in an
• 14:22
  area that humans are,
• 14:23
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 14:23
  SPEAKER_01: massively there.
• 14:24
  SPEAKER_01: So I think that's one category.
• 14:26
  SPEAKER_01: You know,
• 14:26
  the second category is it kind of creates an opportunity to
• 14:29
  build technologies to
• 14:30
  SPEAKER_01: save elephants,
• 14:31
  SPEAKER_01: right?
• 14:31
  So the number one cause of elephant death is actually a disease
• 14:35
  called EEHV.
• 14:36
  It kills 20% of baby elephants every year,
• 14:39
  more than poaching,
• 14:40
  more than anything.
• 14:41
  SPEAKER_01: We currently have a vaccine in trials in elephants where
• 14:44
  SPEAKER_01: with Dr.
• 14:45
  Pauling and Baylor College of Medicine and George Church that
• 14:49
  has proven to confer
• 14:50
  SPEAKER_01: resistance to this disease.
• 14:52
  SPEAKER_01: So that one vaccine alone,
• 14:54
  SPEAKER_01: because we don't want our mammoth,
• 14:55
  SPEAKER_01: we don't want 20% of our mammoths to die of EHV,
• 14:58
  SPEAKER_01: that one disease,
• 14:59
  that one vaccine alone could save more elephants than all of
• 15:03
  elephant conservation
• 15:04
  SPEAKER_01: for the last 50 years,
• 15:05
  SPEAKER_01: right?
• 15:06
  SPEAKER_01: If we are successful.
• 15:07
  SPEAKER_01: So I think the tech side of helping elephants is a third, second.
• 15:10
  SPEAKER_01: And then the third is it is cool.
• 15:12
  SPEAKER_01: Like not enough people talk about this.
• 15:15
  SPEAKER_01: No, I'm serious.
• 15:15
  SPEAKER_01: I'm serious.
• 15:19
  SPEAKER_01: Everybody wants to talk about like the conservation aspects.
• 15:22
  SPEAKER_01: You know,
• 15:23
  we've raised $50 million for our foundation and we're doing all
• 15:25
  these things around conservation.
• 15:26
  SPEAKER_01: Like, so we're happy to talk about that.
• 15:28
  People want to talk about the ethics of it and the science of
• 15:31
  it and the Jurassic park of it.
• 15:32
  SPEAKER_01: So everybody wants to talk about that.
• 15:34
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 15:35
  But one thing that came to me recently is like every single
• 15:38
  week we get like kids'
• 15:40
  little drawings of mammoths or dodos and like messages from
• 15:44
  parents saying,
• 15:44
  SPEAKER_01: thank you for what you're doing.
• 15:46
  SPEAKER_01: My kids and I are talking about climate change.
• 15:47
  SPEAKER_01: We're talking about mammoths and biodiversity.
• 15:50
  SPEAKER_01: My kid wants to be a scientist.
• 15:51
  SPEAKER_01: He wants to work at your...
• 15:52
  SPEAKER_01: What does he have to do to,
• 15:53
  SPEAKER_01: what does he have to get a degree in to work at your company one day?
• 15:56
  SPEAKER_01: And so like,
• 15:57
  SPEAKER_01: we can also take a step back and Lou Vidal and all he says,
• 16:00
  SPEAKER_01: it's like,
• 16:00
  SPEAKER_01: why can't we also just tell the world it's also just fucking cool.
• 16:03
  Like we're doing something that's really interesting and it's
• 16:07
  really cool.
• 16:08
  SPEAKER_01: And it seems to be inspiring people to talk about science.
• 16:12
  SPEAKER_02: The, I mean, yeah.
• 16:14
  SPEAKER_02: This is a little more along the Jurassic Park lines,
• 16:17
  but when I read these books about the era when there were all
• 16:20
  these large mammals,
• 16:22
  SPEAKER_02: the big sloths and the tigers,
• 16:25
  SPEAKER_02: I've always wanted some sort of simulation or video.
• 16:29
  For some reason,
• 16:29
  that's my favorite period of time,
• 16:32
  and I would love to...
• 16:34
  SPEAKER_02: I would love to see what that looked like with all these,
• 16:36
  SPEAKER_02: these giant mammals cruising around and,
• 16:39
  SPEAKER_02: and anyway,
• 16:40
  SPEAKER_02: bit of a tangent,
• 16:40
  SPEAKER_02: but I,
• 16:41
  SPEAKER_02: I get it.
• 16:41
  SPEAKER_02: I get the cool part that that would be amazing.
• 16:45
  SPEAKER_02: All right, let's figure out how you actually would do this.
• 16:52
  I know you guys have done things like with the elephant where
• 16:55
  you've done the most
• 16:56
  SPEAKER_02: detailed sequence of the genome,
• 17:00
  SPEAKER_02: which obviously you need to be able to go from...
• 17:04
  I know you do a mix of trying to find tissue from these extinct
• 17:10
  animals and then
• 17:11
  also trying to genetically understand the creatures that we
• 17:15
  have that are similar
• 17:16
  and where the differences between the past and the current lie
• 17:21
  so that you can
• 17:22
  SPEAKER_02: reverse engineer what's going on.
• 17:23
  But let's break down the mammoth and how you would actually go
• 17:28
  about bringing a
• 17:29
  SPEAKER_02: woolly mammoth back.
• 17:31
  SPEAKER_01: Awesome.
• 17:31
  SPEAKER_01: So it's a systems model, right?
• 17:33
  And so one of the things that I think we've done really right
• 17:35
  at Colossal is we
• 17:37
  SPEAKER_01: have said,
• 17:37
  we're not going to do this in a linear fashion because it'll
• 17:39
  take 40 years.
• 17:40
  SPEAKER_01: We're going to do all of it at the exact time.
• 17:42
  So what that means is we have to collect ancient DNA and we
• 17:46
  actually have about 65
• 17:47
  SPEAKER_01: mammoth genomes.
• 17:48
  SPEAKER_01: Many of those are from Luva Dahlin,
• 17:50
  SPEAKER_01: who is one of our biggest critics when we launched the company.
• 17:53
  SPEAKER_01: Now he's one of our best advisors, which is amazing.
• 17:55
  SPEAKER_01: Who is he?
• 17:55
  SPEAKER_02: He's a scientist or?
• 17:56
  So Lou Vidalin is,
• 17:58
  uh,
• 17:58
  arguably the number one mammoth expert in the world.
• 18:00
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 18:01
  SPEAKER_01: He's at the university of Stockholm.
• 18:03
  SPEAKER_01: Uh,
• 18:03
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 18:03
  he's also a member of the explorers club with me and he goes on
• 18:05
  these expeditions
• 18:06
  SPEAKER_01: into the Arctic and gets mammoth samples,
• 18:09
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 18:10
  SPEAKER_01: from bone and tusk and petrous bones and all these places.
• 18:12
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 18:13
  And so what you have to do is you have to collect a lot of
• 18:15
  mammoth DNA because it's highly,
• 18:17
  SPEAKER_01: the longer we go back,
• 18:19
  SPEAKER_01: the more fragmented it is.
• 18:20
  SPEAKER_01: So it gets, it degrades very quickly over time.
• 18:22
  And so we have about 65 mammoth genomes that are ranging from
• 18:27
  about 3,500 years ago,
• 18:29
  SPEAKER_01: all the way back to 700,000 years.
• 18:31
  So while that makes it hard to assemble this reference genome,
• 18:34
  which we've now done,
• 18:35
  uh,
• 18:36
  One of the great things is,
• 18:37
  is it does allow us to see what has been conserved.
• 18:40
  So what are the genes over that evolutionary distance that
• 18:43
  truly were mammoth,
• 18:45
  right?
• 18:45
  Because a mammoth is about 99.6% the same genetically as an
• 18:48
  Asian elephant.
• 18:49
  But what were the genes that really were conserved over that
• 18:52
  period of time?
• 18:53
  SPEAKER_01: So more painful for assembly,
• 18:55
  but better to understand really what genes drive mammoth
• 18:58
  phenotypes or physical,
• 19:00
  SPEAKER_01: like their cold tolerance features,
• 19:01
  SPEAKER_01: right?
• 19:01
  Yeah,
• 19:01
  well,
• 19:01
  like just super quick on that to give people something specific.
• 19:04
  SPEAKER_02: They had a lot more body fat.
• 19:06
  SPEAKER_02: They had smaller ears.
• 19:08
  SPEAKER_01: They had smaller ears.
• 19:10
  SPEAKER_01: They had their iconic curved tusk, dome cranium for heat distribution.
• 19:14
  And then they actually had five different types of hair that
• 19:18
  made them wooly,
• 19:19
  right?
• 19:19
  SPEAKER_01: And so they had this shaggy coat.
• 19:21
  SPEAKER_01: That's probably the most iconic thing ever.
• 19:23
  SPEAKER_01: that people think of, but they did have that subcutaneous layer of fat.
• 19:26
  SPEAKER_01: They also had a different way of handling hemoglobin production.
• 19:31
  SPEAKER_01: So like oxygenation from your blood,
• 19:34
  SPEAKER_01: how that happens at sub-freezing temperatures,
• 19:37
  SPEAKER_01: at temperatures that our blood would crystallize,
• 19:39
  SPEAKER_01: theirs didn't.
• 19:39
  SPEAKER_02: So you could be like in kind of like hypoxic conditions to survive.
• 19:44
  SPEAKER_01: Exactly, exactly.
• 19:45
  SPEAKER_01: And they also had pretty wide variety.
• 19:47
  So,
• 19:48
  you know,
• 19:49
  when people think about the Pleistocene era,
• 19:51
  we're currently the Holocene era,
• 19:53
  But when people think about the Pleistocene era,
• 19:54
  they think,
• 19:55
  oh,
• 19:55
  it was only just negative 40.
• 19:57
  There were these interglacial periods during that time that
• 20:00
  were as warm and even
• 20:01
  SPEAKER_01: warmer than today.
• 20:02
  So you have different distributions of mammoths and different
• 20:05
  types of mammoths
• 20:06
  like Colombian mammoths and boy mammoths that actually were
• 20:08
  able to traverse.
• 20:11
  So there's a lot about the mammoths that's pretty awesome from
• 20:15
  a scientific study perspective.
• 20:17
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, so you get the ancient DNA, right?
• 20:19
  SPEAKER_01: And you have to compare it to its closest living relative,
• 20:22
  SPEAKER_01: which in this case is the Asian elephant.
• 20:24
  Now,
• 20:24
  I come from software and a little bit of space hardware,
• 20:26
  but mostly software.
• 20:28
  SPEAKER_01: So I just thought, oh, we'll just plug it into the GCP of species.
• 20:32
  SPEAKER_01: You know, surely there's the, you know, everyone's got 23 and me.
• 20:34
  SPEAKER_01: Surely we've done that for all animals.
• 20:37
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, turns out we haven't, which is another major issue.
• 20:40
  That's why we're trying to preach biobanking and
• 20:42
  cryopreservation pretty hard right
• 20:44
  SPEAKER_01: now to every government that'll listen to us.
• 20:47
  I was just at the WEF at the World Economic Forum preaching
• 20:50
  about this because it's
• 20:50
  SPEAKER_01: so important.
• 20:51
  SPEAKER_01: So, so we had to then go build a reference genome for Asian elephants and
• 20:55
  SPEAKER_01: and African elephants and forest elephants and Borneo elephants,
• 20:58
  SPEAKER_01: because that just doesn't exist,
• 21:00
  SPEAKER_01: right?
• 21:00
  They like from a conservation and research perspective,
• 21:02
  no one had done that.
• 21:03
  SPEAKER_02: Can I ask a question about that real quick?
• 21:05
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 21:06
  SPEAKER_02: You know, I remember there was, there was this
• 21:09
  company slash research organization in china bgi the beijing
• 21:15
  genomics institute i
• 21:16
  remember after the human genome had been sequenced probably 15
• 21:20
  years after that
• 21:21
  they went on this this big sequencing craze and were trying to
• 21:26
  sequence all kinds
• 21:27
  of different animals and and bank them away and so when i was
• 21:30
  reading about you
• 21:31
  SPEAKER_02: guys and i read that you had by far the most detailed
• 21:35
  elephant sequence and that was the first time somebody had done
• 21:37
  that i believe for
• 21:38
  a large mammal in a long time what where does this fit in with
• 21:43
  what bga i remember
• 21:44
  them sequencing yeah pandas and i remember everything you know
• 21:48
  we you know we're an
• 21:49
  SPEAKER_01: american company so we have different views on some of these
• 21:52
  SPEAKER_01: issues, right?
• 21:54
  SPEAKER_01: As I understand, BGI is sequencing everything.
• 21:56
  They don't share as much,
• 21:58
  I think,
• 21:58
  as...
• 21:59
  Well,
• 22:00
  the CEO had the best quote ever.
• 22:01
  He said,
• 22:02
  if it's cute,
• 22:04
  we'll sequence it,
• 22:05
  and if it tastes good,
• 22:06
  we'll sequence it.
• 22:07
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 22:08
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 22:09
  SPEAKER_01: Someone asked him in the last two years,
• 22:12
  SPEAKER_01: like,
• 22:12
  are you sequencing people to try to figure out what the
• 22:15
  smartest humans are and
• 22:16
  SPEAKER_01: what those genes are?
• 22:17
  SPEAKER_01: And he said, why wouldn't we?
• 22:20
  SPEAKER_02: They might be doing this, but that information is not available.
• 22:22
  SPEAKER_01: That information is not available.
• 22:24
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 22:24
  SPEAKER_01: We think of this more of like the seed vault.
• 22:26
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 22:26
  SPEAKER_01: Where it's like we have to back up.
• 22:30
  SPEAKER_01: all life.
• 22:30
  SPEAKER_01: You know,
• 22:30
  it's forecasted that we're going to lose up to 50% of all
• 22:33
  biodiversity between now
• 22:34
  SPEAKER_01: and 2050.
• 22:35
  SPEAKER_01: So like current conservation works,
• 22:37
  SPEAKER_01: it just doesn't work at the speed of which we are eradicating things.
• 22:40
  SPEAKER_01: So we have to back up all life.
• 22:42
  SPEAKER_01: And so part of that though,
• 22:44
  is we started with the species that we're working on and then
• 22:46
  the clades of animals
• 22:47
  SPEAKER_01: that make sense,
• 22:48
  SPEAKER_01: right?
• 22:48
  SPEAKER_01: So in this case, it's the elephants.
• 22:51
  SPEAKER_01: On the thylacine projects, it's all the carnivorous marsupials.
• 22:54
  And then it's several different pigeon species on the dodo
• 22:57
  because the dodo was
• 22:58
  SPEAKER_01: just a weird looking pigeon.
• 22:59
  SPEAKER_01: So
• 22:59
  SPEAKER_01: So,
• 23:00
  SPEAKER_01: um,
• 23:00
  SPEAKER_01: and so,
• 23:01
  so then you have to build a reference genome and then you have
• 23:03
  to do comparative
• 23:04
  genomics to understand what genes made a mammoth a mammoth and
• 23:08
  what has been lost
• 23:09
  SPEAKER_01: in that elephant lineage over time.
• 23:11
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 23:12
  SPEAKER_01: And most people don't realize this.
• 23:13
  SPEAKER_01: And this is kind of another fun party fact is that,
• 23:16
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 23:16
  Asian elephants are closer related to woolly mammoths than
• 23:20
  Asian elephants are to
• 23:20
  SPEAKER_01: African elephants.
• 23:21
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 23:22
  SPEAKER_01: And so.
• 23:22
  SPEAKER_01: As you do comparative genomics across this,
• 23:25
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 23:25
  SPEAKER_01: of all of these pachyderm species,
• 23:28
  SPEAKER_01: you can then really identify what is truly mammoth.
• 23:31
  And then based on historical literature and doing functional
• 23:35
  tests in labs,
• 23:36
  SPEAKER_01: we can identify,
• 23:37
  SPEAKER_01: okay,
• 23:37
  SPEAKER_01: these are the genes associated with hair.
• 23:39
  SPEAKER_01: And then you can start to edit those into Asian elephant cells.
• 23:42
  So when people think of us and they think of Jurassic Park,
• 23:45
  it's exactly opposite.
• 23:46
  Like in Jurassic Park,
• 23:47
  they're trying to fill in the holes of ancient DNA they got
• 23:50
  from amber.
• 23:51
  SPEAKER_01: Um, side note, Amber is not a good vehicle for storing DNA.
• 23:55
  SPEAKER_01: Not that we've tried.
• 23:56
  SPEAKER_01: Uh,
• 23:56
  SPEAKER_01: it's very porous and you can't get dino DNA from it in case people,
• 24:00
  SPEAKER_01: a listener is curious about it.
• 24:01
  Um,
• 24:02
  but they were filling in with like frog DNA into that of the,
• 24:05
  uh,
• 24:05
  into that of the dino DNA.
• 24:07
  SPEAKER_01: And then they were putting a bunch of other weird stuff in there.
• 24:09
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 24:09
  SPEAKER_01: we're doing an exact opposite, right?
• 24:11
  SPEAKER_01: Like we're looking at the Asian elephant genome and we're like,
• 24:14
  we know these cells made an elephant because we took the blood
• 24:18
  from an elephant,
• 24:18
  SPEAKER_01: right?
• 24:19
  SPEAKER_01: And then we say, okay, what genes made a mammoth a mammoth?
• 24:23
  SPEAKER_01: And then we're engineering those genes in.
• 24:25
  SPEAKER_01: And sometimes that's a small change.
• 24:27
  SPEAKER_01: Sometimes we're synthesizing big pieces of DNA and putting it in.
• 24:31
  SPEAKER_01: So we're using a combination of tools to
• 24:33
  SPEAKER_01: in order to make that possible.
• 24:37
  SPEAKER_01: And then the last step is once you have your edits,
• 24:39
  SPEAKER_01: I'm sure your questions are all on some of these past,
• 24:41
  SPEAKER_01: but once you have your edits,
• 24:43
  SPEAKER_01: you then do a process called somatic cell nuclear transfer,
• 24:47
  SPEAKER_01: most famously known as cloning with Dalek the sheep,
• 24:51
  SPEAKER_01: which was magic.
• 24:51
  SPEAKER_01: Like back then they were like,
• 24:53
  SPEAKER_01: jamming pipe.
• 24:54
  SPEAKER_01: The fact that that worked blows my mind.
• 24:56
  We now use like lasers to drill holes and robotics to remove it
• 24:59
  and computer vision.
• 25:00
  Like it's come a long way since Dolly,
• 25:03
  Dolly's magic that it worked even ever.
• 25:06
  And then we replace that embryo and then you use a very similar
• 25:10
  process to IVF to
• 25:11
  SPEAKER_01: put that into a surrogate elephant.
• 25:13
  Now,
• 25:13
  the last thing I'll say is we have a 17 person team that's
• 25:17
  working on artificial wombs.
• 25:19
  We're expanding that team right now with our most recent
• 25:21
  capital raise and
• 25:22
  SPEAKER_01: And,
• 25:22
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 25:23
  SPEAKER_01: none of our first generation species will be born ex-utero,
• 25:27
  SPEAKER_01: but I think in the next two years,
• 25:29
  SPEAKER_01: based on kind of where we are,
• 25:30
  we'll be able to produce the world's first mammal fully outside
• 25:34
  of the womb that
• 25:35
  SPEAKER_01: grew from a single embryo into an animal.
• 25:37
  SPEAKER_02: So you said the first that you bring back will not be ex-utero.
• 25:44
  SPEAKER_02: They'll be in an elephant, implanted in an elephant.
• 25:48
  SPEAKER_02: Into an elephant, yes.
• 25:49
  SPEAKER_02: And then we get to the artificial womb.
• 25:52
  And I think the artificial womb has the ability to drive scale
• 25:55
  for our projects,
• 25:56
  but also it gives us the opportunity to do bigger and cooler
• 25:59
  stuff that we can't
• 25:59
  SPEAKER_01: currently gestate like the stellar sea cow,
• 26:01
  SPEAKER_01: which is awesome.
• 26:02
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and I think it's also game changing for conservation, right?
• 26:05
  If you can grow 200 Northern white rhinos in a lab and then
• 26:09
  rewild them with
• 26:10
  SPEAKER_01: rewilding partners on the ground,
• 26:12
  SPEAKER_01: that'll gain.
• 26:12
  SPEAKER_01: That's a game changer for both animal welfare and for conservation.
• 26:17
  SPEAKER_02: I'm sure there's people listening now who say,
• 26:20
  I didn't know people were working on artificial looms or even
• 26:23
  thinking about this.
• 26:24
  SPEAKER_02: It is, in fact, I think I know
• 26:27
  SPEAKER_02: probably I would say three,
• 26:28
  SPEAKER_02: four,
• 26:28
  SPEAKER_02: five startups,
• 26:30
  SPEAKER_02: some of whom remain secret for the moment who,
• 26:33
  SPEAKER_02: who are pursuing this and also different directions.
• 26:37
  SPEAKER_02: Um, but this is a real thing.
• 26:38
  SPEAKER_02: People are,
• 26:39
  SPEAKER_02: are looking to build this,
• 26:42
  SPEAKER_02: this container that,
• 26:43
  SPEAKER_02: that you could,
• 26:44
  SPEAKER_02: you could grow humans,
• 26:46
  SPEAKER_02: animals,
• 26:47
  SPEAKER_02: all kinds of things.
• 26:48
  Now we don't focus on humans,
• 26:49
  but it is much harder to grow an elephant and a marsupial
• 26:55
  SPEAKER_01: And a,
• 26:56
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 26:56
  manatee in a artificial womb with the four major placental
• 27:01
  types and kind of the
• 27:02
  SPEAKER_01: sub 12 different subtypes.
• 27:04
  SPEAKER_01: It's much harder to do that than a human.
• 27:07
  So I do think if we are successful,
• 27:08
  most likely our tech could be applied to humans.
• 27:12
  SPEAKER_02: Okay,
• 27:12
  SPEAKER_02: to go backwards on some of the other tech first,
• 27:15
  SPEAKER_02: I love,
• 27:16
  I really do like George Church and the spirit of which he
• 27:21
  approaches synthetic
• 27:23
  SPEAKER_02: biology and these big ideas.
• 27:26
  SPEAKER_02: Sometimes I feel like he...
• 27:29
  SPEAKER_02: is so smart or so ahead of where everybody else is.
• 27:32
  SPEAKER_02: He,
• 27:32
  SPEAKER_02: he makes it seem like things that sound futuristic or not easy,
• 27:37
  SPEAKER_02: but like they're,
• 27:37
  SPEAKER_02: it's a fait accompli.
• 27:38
  I think,
• 27:39
  I think he goes to this place at his head where he can see it
• 27:41
  being done.
• 27:42
  SPEAKER_01: He sees every step.
• 27:43
  SPEAKER_01: And so he's just like, he does think it's easy.
• 27:46
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 27:46
  SPEAKER_01: It's just, it's just focus and funding.
• 27:48
  SPEAKER_02: Right, right.
• 27:49
  SPEAKER_02: But like,
• 27:50
  SPEAKER_02: would you,
• 27:50
  SPEAKER_02: cause you guys are talking about bringing the mammoth back,
• 27:53
  SPEAKER_02: I think by 2028,
• 27:54
  SPEAKER_02: when you're talking about these large DNA sequence,
• 27:59
  SPEAKER_02: um,
• 28:00
  SPEAKER_02: injections or edits.
• 28:03
  SPEAKER_02: It's my understanding,
• 28:05
  SPEAKER_02: and you would know much better that we have not fully solved that puzzle,
• 28:10
  SPEAKER_02: that this stuff remains very hard and that things often go wrong.
• 28:14
  SPEAKER_02: I know everybody hears about CRISPR,
• 28:16
  SPEAKER_02: but then I see startups telling me all the limitations of CRISPR,
• 28:20
  SPEAKER_02: and we're only now getting-
• 28:23
  SPEAKER_01: CRISPR has become the catch-off for genetic engineering, right?
• 28:25
  What I love about CRISPR is it kind of started the art of the possible,
• 28:29
  right?
• 28:30
  SPEAKER_01: And so it's like,
• 28:31
  SPEAKER_01: we can edit,
• 28:32
  SPEAKER_01: we can knock things out,
• 28:34
  SPEAKER_01: we can knock things in,
• 28:35
  SPEAKER_01: but it's a sledgehammer.
• 28:37
  SPEAKER_01: It's not precision editing the way it is.
• 28:40
  We have a couple of proprietary tools and the two areas that
• 28:44
  we're focusing a lot
• 28:44
  SPEAKER_01: of our time is what we call multiplex editing.
• 28:47
  SPEAKER_01: So editing a lot of the genome at the same time.
• 28:50
  SPEAKER_01: So we're not,
• 28:51
  we do use the knockout stuff where we knock out parts of the
• 28:55
  genome and the knock
• 28:56
  SPEAKER_01: in stuff,
• 28:57
  SPEAKER_01: but it's highly disruptive.
• 28:58
  SPEAKER_01: Sometimes it creates double branded.
• 29:00
  SPEAKER_01: So for the audience, you know, with,
• 29:02
  dna you've got kind of two things it uh it it causes sometimes
• 29:06
  more off-target
• 29:07
  effects the double helix sort of phrase or or goes a little
• 29:12
  little funky it's a
• 29:13
  little wonky yeah you got to get really specific so what we've
• 29:17
  done a really good
• 29:18
  job at is coming at it from an ai perspective and a software
• 29:20
  perspective and what i
• 29:21
  can tell you is we've made we announced this in october of last
• 29:24
  year we've made 300
• 29:26
  SPEAKER_01: edits and
• 29:28
  SPEAKER_01: in a Dunart cell that are all over, uh, the low side.
• 29:31
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, they're all over that.
• 29:32
  SPEAKER_01: They're not linear repeats.
• 29:33
  SPEAKER_01: You, you can look at, look at the number of edits people have made.
• 29:37
  SPEAKER_01: And I love George in his very George church.
• 29:39
  The number,
• 29:40
  I think the,
• 29:40
  the,
• 29:41
  the biggest number is 26,000 in a single cell line.
• 29:44
  SPEAKER_01: That's George's record,
• 29:45
  SPEAKER_01: but those are all linear repeats,
• 29:46
  SPEAKER_01: not to take away from George,
• 29:47
  SPEAKER_01: but it's the same edit 26,000 times.
• 29:49
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 29:49
  SPEAKER_01: Um,
• 29:51
  SPEAKER_01: We've made 300 edits in a non-model species being a fat tail donor,
• 29:57
  SPEAKER_01: a marsupial that drive cranial facial shape from the thylacine.
• 30:01
  SPEAKER_01: So it's ancient DNA,
• 30:02
  SPEAKER_01: never been done before,
• 30:04
  SPEAKER_01: into a cell,
• 30:05
  SPEAKER_01: never been done before,
• 30:06
  SPEAKER_01: 300 times,
• 30:08
  SPEAKER_01: never been done before,
• 30:10
  SPEAKER_01: and delivered at over 90% efficiency,
• 30:13
  SPEAKER_01: never been done before.
• 30:13
  SPEAKER_01: Some of the efficiencies that I'd say the general people are using,
• 30:17
  SPEAKER_01: even on the precision editing side,
• 30:19
  SPEAKER_01: is like 15%.
• 30:21
  SPEAKER_01: So we've had to spend a lot of time and,
• 30:23
  SPEAKER_01: and this is a,
• 30:24
  SPEAKER_01: this to George's credit,
• 30:25
  SPEAKER_01: it is a focus and funding issue.
• 30:27
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 30:27
  SPEAKER_01: And so,
• 30:27
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 30:28
  we are not at the point that we can go like do a DNA synthesis
• 30:32
  of an entire
• 30:33
  SPEAKER_01: chromosome and just stick it in a cell and call it a day.
• 30:35
  SPEAKER_01: I think eventually we'll get there,
• 30:37
  SPEAKER_01: but you know,
• 30:38
  SPEAKER_01: we've been able to at Colossal been able to drive,
• 30:40
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 30:40
  30 plus edits from a multi-flex editing perspective at a time
• 30:45
  at near a hundred
• 30:46
  SPEAKER_01: percent efficiency.
• 30:47
  SPEAKER_01: No one's done anything.
• 30:49
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that's why In-Q-Tel and,
• 30:51
  Other investors have invested in us because of the genome
• 30:54
  engineering tools and
• 30:55
  SPEAKER_01: capabilities that we've been doing.
• 30:56
  SPEAKER_01: And then we've been able to synthesize,
• 30:59
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 31:00
  SPEAKER_01: about three times larger than anyone else has been able to synthesize and
• 31:03
  SPEAKER_01: successfully put it into a species.
• 31:05
  SPEAKER_01: So to your point,
• 31:07
  SPEAKER_01: Getting the technologies do exist,
• 31:10
  SPEAKER_01: but if you're getting 15% efficiency and having to do one at a time,
• 31:13
  SPEAKER_01: that's going to take,
• 31:14
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 31:14
  SPEAKER_01: you need like 5,000 people working 24 seven to get there.
• 31:17
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 31:18
  SPEAKER_01: We've been really focusing on creating efficiencies in the tech.
• 31:21
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that's where we shine.
• 31:23
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I think at our core, we're a genome editing company.
• 31:26
  SPEAKER_02: Again, half Australian, but also half Texan.
• 31:30
  SPEAKER_02: I grew up in Houston.
• 31:31
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, me too.
• 31:32
  SPEAKER_02: I'm Texan.
• 31:32
  SPEAKER_02: I know.
• 31:33
  SPEAKER_02: This is where I'm going.
• 31:35
  SPEAKER_02: You guys are based in Dallas,
• 31:37
  SPEAKER_02: and this is not a knock on Texas,
• 31:39
  but you would almost definitely expect for the level of science
• 31:44
  that you guys are
• 31:45
  doing that this company would be in Boston or San Diego or
• 31:48
  Silicon Valley where
• 31:49
  SPEAKER_02: most of this type of talent,
• 31:51
  SPEAKER_02: obviously CRISPR,
• 31:53
  really grew out of Boston or Berkeley,
• 31:57
  depending on which side of the loss you're on.
• 31:59
  SPEAKER_01: You want to be on which side of that argument, yeah.
• 32:01
  SPEAKER_02: But Dallas, how are you finding the scientists to do this type of work?
• 32:09
  SPEAKER_02: It just wouldn't be the obvious place to be.
• 32:11
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and you know, well, I'm from Texas, right?
• 32:13
  SPEAKER_01: And I built five companies in Texas.
• 32:15
  SPEAKER_01: I love Texas.
• 32:16
  SPEAKER_01: You know, it's going to be hard to ever get me out of Texas.
• 32:19
  SPEAKER_01: We do have a lab in Boston.
• 32:20
  SPEAKER_01: We have two in Dallas, and then we have one in Melbourne, Australia.
• 32:24
  SPEAKER_01: But ultimately,
• 32:25
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 32:26
  SPEAKER_01: from a synthetic biology perspective,
• 32:28
  SPEAKER_01: I would argue that this is the coolest synthetic biology is the hardest.
• 32:31
  SPEAKER_01: And it's the coolest synthetic biology project in the world.
• 32:35
  SPEAKER_01: And,
• 32:35
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 32:35
  I think most people have a choice to go work in academia and
• 32:39
  have to work on the
• 32:40
  SPEAKER_01: things that they're getting granted and funded and sponsored research.
• 32:43
  SPEAKER_01: Option A.
• 32:44
  SPEAKER_01: Option B,
• 32:44
  SPEAKER_01: go start a therapeutic that's going to go through phase one,
• 32:46
  SPEAKER_01: phase two,
• 32:47
  SPEAKER_01: phase three clinical trials.
• 32:48
  SPEAKER_01: Or option three, go work on yeast.
• 32:50
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 32:51
  SPEAKER_01: So, so we, we, we are, our group here is very international.
• 32:55
  SPEAKER_01: We have 170 plus scientists.
• 32:57
  Uh,
• 32:57
  most of them are in Texas,
• 32:58
  but most of them have been relocated to Texas.
• 33:00
  SPEAKER_01: So we did have some Texas folks.
• 33:02
  SPEAKER_01: Cause you know,
• 33:03
  SPEAKER_01: we've got in Dallas specifically,
• 33:05
  SPEAKER_01: we've got UT Southwestern,
• 33:06
  SPEAKER_01: which is a top university and top,
• 33:08
  SPEAKER_01: uh,
• 33:08
  SPEAKER_01: sorry,
• 33:09
  SPEAKER_01: top research hospital.
• 33:10
  SPEAKER_01: So we have recruited some out of there, but yeah.
• 33:12
  SPEAKER_01: you know, most of the people we have relocated.
• 33:15
  SPEAKER_01: And,
• 33:15
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 33:15
  SPEAKER_01: I think that,
• 33:16
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 33:17
  SPEAKER_01: we've spent a lot of time and money on our labs,
• 33:19
  SPEAKER_01: arguably one of the most advanced lab,
• 33:21
  SPEAKER_01: our new labs coming online in June of this year,
• 33:23
  SPEAKER_01: and it'll be like nothing else out there.
• 33:25
  I think you give people that environment and you give them the
• 33:28
  ability to work with
• 33:29
  all of these top Nobel laureates and scientists like George and
• 33:33
  Beth and Luva and others.
• 33:35
  SPEAKER_01: And, and I think you create that environment of discovery and,
• 33:37
  SPEAKER_01: That they can't get even in academia and you put it on a timeline that,
• 33:43
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 33:43
  is significantly more aggressive than they ever do in any other
• 33:47
  any other world.
• 33:48
  SPEAKER_01: Well,
• 33:48
  I think you're kind of creating this environment that's
• 33:51
  attracted to the scientists
• 33:53
  SPEAKER_01: that really want to do something that makes history.
• 33:56
  SPEAKER_01: And so recruiting to Texas has been, I think, a huge thing for us.
• 34:00
  SPEAKER_01: And,
• 34:01
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 34:01
  SPEAKER_01: Texas is a pretty diverse,
• 34:03
  SPEAKER_01: interesting place in the major metropolitan cities,
• 34:05
  SPEAKER_01: maybe not so much in the rural cities,
• 34:07
  SPEAKER_01: maybe not as much as Midland as it is in Dallas.
• 34:10
  SPEAKER_02: Yes.
• 34:12
  SPEAKER_01: But it's cool.
• 34:12
  SPEAKER_01: And it's working.
• 34:13
  SPEAKER_01: You know,
• 34:13
  we we aren't people aren't saying we don't want to come to
• 34:16
  Colossal because we
• 34:17
  SPEAKER_01: don't move to Texas.
• 34:19
  SPEAKER_02: Plus you've got queso and breakfast tacos.
• 34:21
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 34:22
  SPEAKER_01: You got the, this is your two food group.
• 34:23
  SPEAKER_01: What else do you need?
• 34:24
  SPEAKER_02: Who could, who could turn it down?
• 34:25
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 34:26
  SPEAKER_02: On the money question,
• 34:26
  you guys have raised a lot of money and you went from being a
• 34:32
  billion dollar
• 34:33
  unicorn to a deck of corn recently in terms of the valuation of
• 34:38
  the company.
• 34:40
  SPEAKER_02: The look, I, you know, as far as like,
• 34:44
  SPEAKER_02: sellable products.
• 34:46
  SPEAKER_02: Even if you get to 2028 with a woolly mammoth,
• 34:48
  it's not like this is an iPhone that's going to start
• 34:53
  generating a lot of revenue.
• 34:56
  SPEAKER_02: It's impressive what you guys have done.
• 34:59
  And I know you've done spinoffs of some of the technology where
• 35:04
  that can become its
• 35:05
  SPEAKER_02: own biotech company.
• 35:06
  SPEAKER_02: But man, I mean, if I'm speaking just really honestly, this seems like a
• 35:11
  SPEAKER_02: Seems like an awesome thing to try and do,
• 35:14
  and that amazing science will come along the way to make every
• 35:19
  close on venture
• 35:21
  SPEAKER_02: capitalist funding this.
• 35:23
  SPEAKER_02: That seems much more difficult to me to actually get to some ends.
• 35:27
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, we were oversubscribed.
• 35:28
  SPEAKER_01: We had one person and one group,
• 35:31
  SPEAKER_01: TWG Global,
• 35:32
  SPEAKER_01: that took the Series C,
• 35:34
  and we have 10 people that I met with in the world in Davos
• 35:39
  that are like...
• 35:40
  SPEAKER_01: can we put in 200, can we put in 100, put in 500?
• 35:43
  SPEAKER_01: So there's that.
• 35:44
  Because they think it's cool or like people see this as a
• 35:48
  revenue generating business.
• 35:51
  SPEAKER_01: It's a combination, right?
• 35:52
  SPEAKER_01: And so I think that, you know, one, it is cool.
• 35:55
  SPEAKER_01: Like let's, we have to always say that, right?
• 35:56
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 35:57
  SPEAKER_01: You know, it's like my first investor I talked to about it.
• 36:00
  SPEAKER_01: I was like, you know, Mark, how many questions, how many deals are you?
• 36:02
  And he said,
• 36:03
  I was like,
• 36:03
  how many of them do you talk about at the golf course?
• 36:05
  SPEAKER_01: The answer was zero.
• 36:06
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 36:07
  SPEAKER_01: And I was like, now you got one.
• 36:08
  So,
• 36:09
  um,
• 36:10
  uh,
• 36:10
  so,
• 36:10
  so different people have different reasons for coming into colossal.
• 36:13
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 36:13
  SPEAKER_01: But when you look at big institutional capital, they do need a return.
• 36:16
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 36:17
  SPEAKER_01: And they are looking at return.
• 36:18
  SPEAKER_01: We have a lot of funds in our deal.
• 36:19
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 36:19
  SPEAKER_01: We don't have just rich humans, right.
• 36:21
  SPEAKER_01: That are passionate about it.
• 36:22
  SPEAKER_01: We do have those two.
• 36:24
  SPEAKER_01: but we also have very big institutional funds that are,
• 36:27
  SPEAKER_01: that are in the dealer expecting returns.
• 36:29
  SPEAKER_01: And,
• 36:29
  SPEAKER_01: and so if you look at the business model,
• 36:32
  SPEAKER_01: um,
• 36:32
  SPEAKER_01: as it exists today and we learn more every day,
• 36:34
  SPEAKER_01: it's quite interesting,
• 36:35
  SPEAKER_01: right?
• 36:35
  So we've got technology spin outs,
• 36:37
  which don't create revenue because we spend them out.
• 36:40
  SPEAKER_01: We distribute the shares, but they create option value.
• 36:42
  SPEAKER_01: Well, we've spun out three companies, two of which we've been outs.
• 36:45
  A third one's valued at,
• 36:47
  you know,
• 36:47
  uh,
• 36:48
  the first one's valued over a hundred million dollars.
• 36:49
  SPEAKER_01: It's computational biology company.
• 36:51
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, the second one isn't, uh,
• 36:53
  SPEAKER_01: We're not valued at that quite yet, but it's in mid-eight figures.
• 36:56
  SPEAKER_01: I think it'll get there.
• 36:57
  SPEAKER_01: We've got 11 pilots on our plastic degradation company,
• 37:00
  SPEAKER_01: another major existential problem that we need to solve.
• 37:03
  SPEAKER_01: Our third one,
• 37:04
  SPEAKER_01: we haven't announced yet,
• 37:05
  SPEAKER_01: but we've raised,
• 37:07
  it's valued over $100 million out of the gate based on what
• 37:09
  it's already achieved scientifically.
• 37:12
  SPEAKER_01: You know,
• 37:12
  SPEAKER_01: our genome engineering tools,
• 37:14
  SPEAKER_01: our technologies for artificial wombs,
• 37:17
  SPEAKER_01: even the subsets,
• 37:18
  SPEAKER_01: right?
• 37:18
  SPEAKER_01: Like, so I'll give you a little tangent, but I think it's interesting.
• 37:23
  SPEAKER_01: You tell me you don't think it's interesting,
• 37:24
  but even the Lego blocks before we get to a full scale
• 37:28
  artificial womb are pretty powerful,
• 37:29
  SPEAKER_01: right?
• 37:29
  So we've actually built a computer vision system that uses like
• 37:35
  this hydrogel model and
• 37:37
  SPEAKER_01: hydrofluidic system,
• 37:39
  SPEAKER_01: where we are able to keep non-model and model,
• 37:42
  SPEAKER_01: so specifically mice,
• 37:45
  SPEAKER_01: and then other non-model species,
• 37:48
  SPEAKER_01: embryos,
• 37:49
  SPEAKER_01: healthier,
• 37:49
  SPEAKER_01: better,
• 37:50
  SPEAKER_01: and do a better morphological grade.
• 37:52
  SPEAKER_01: Well, in IVF, they just do morphological grading.
• 37:55
  SPEAKER_01: It's a pretty bad system, right?
• 37:57
  SPEAKER_01: And so
• 37:58
  If you look at the number of people on the rise that are going
• 38:01
  through IVF,
• 38:02
  SPEAKER_01: I went through IVF for my child,
• 38:03
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 38:04
  SPEAKER_01: the system's kind of broken,
• 38:05
  SPEAKER_01: right?
• 38:05
  SPEAKER_01: And if you could increase more embryo viability and let them,
• 38:10
  some of the embryos that aren't the best morphologically on day
• 38:14
  one are not always
• 38:15
  SPEAKER_01: compatible with life.
• 38:17
  But some of the ones that aren't the best morphologically on
• 38:19
  day one end up being the best one.
• 38:21
  And some women have to go through two or three rounds and it's
• 38:23
  that third embryo
• 38:24
  SPEAKER_01: that worked,
• 38:25
  SPEAKER_01: right?
• 38:25
  But that morphological state at the beginning and how it looked
• 38:28
  wasn't right.
• 38:29
  SPEAKER_01: So we have a system to improve that.
• 38:31
  SPEAKER_01: That could revolutionize efficiencies for IVF across the world.
• 38:35
  SPEAKER_02: And so- Well, I totally get it.
• 38:37
  SPEAKER_02: Look, I was reading up on you guys before this.
• 38:39
  Yeah,
• 38:40
  some of these startups that you've already announced,
• 38:43
  really interesting-
• 38:45
  And you guys are at the cutting edge of pushing this technology
• 38:49
  to its limits.
• 38:50
  So it makes sense that you're going to find things maybe that
• 38:53
  others haven't.
• 38:54
  SPEAKER_02: There was part of me where I'm like,
• 38:56
  SPEAKER_02: oh man,
• 38:57
  SPEAKER_02: this is funding,
• 38:59
  SPEAKER_02: incredibly ambitious,
• 39:01
  SPEAKER_02: semi-nuts,
• 39:02
  SPEAKER_02: totally amazing startup with the promise of other,
• 39:07
  SPEAKER_02: more startups,
• 39:08
  SPEAKER_01: right?
• 39:09
  SPEAKER_01: And it becomes like this...
• 39:10
  SPEAKER_01: The startups are just option value, right?
• 39:12
  SPEAKER_01: Which we think is pretty interesting.
• 39:14
  I do think the option values alone,
• 39:16
  if we do nothing else right,
• 39:18
  is pretty,
• 39:19
  pretty powerful.
• 39:21
  But going on to later stages in the business model,
• 39:23
  and this assumes success,
• 39:25
  right?
• 39:25
  And we have these long term investors is there is a lot of
• 39:28
  money in rewilding.
• 39:29
  SPEAKER_01: Like, I mean, yes, it helps the world.
• 39:30
  SPEAKER_01: It's pretty interesting.
• 39:31
  But if you look at the carbon market that's forecast to be up
• 39:34
  to $2.7 trillion,
• 39:35
  SPEAKER_01: and you now look at this rise of the biodiversity credits market,
• 39:39
  SPEAKER_01: if you look at Lloyd's of London,
• 39:40
  SPEAKER_01: if you look at TPG,
• 39:42
  SPEAKER_01: not TWG,
• 39:43
  SPEAKER_01: and their $8 billion fund,
• 39:44
  SPEAKER_01: if you look at what PwC is doing,
• 39:46
  SPEAKER_01: and you look at all of kind of like where analysts predict,
• 39:50
  SPEAKER_01: generally speaking,
• 39:51
  SPEAKER_01: it's going to probably move towards a nature credit,
• 39:55
  SPEAKER_01: which combines the parts that were broken in the carbon model and
• 40:00
  SPEAKER_01: and applies new models around biodiversity,
• 40:03
  SPEAKER_01: which is highly trackable through eDNA and other things,
• 40:05
  SPEAKER_01: right?
• 40:06
  SPEAKER_01: And so if you look at kind of that market and you look at,
• 40:09
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 40:09
  SPEAKER_01: not just regulatory reasons,
• 40:12
  SPEAKER_01: but social pressures on carbon negative,
• 40:14
  SPEAKER_01: I mean,
• 40:15
  SPEAKER_01: companies and global companies like Sumitomo Corporation,
• 40:17
  SPEAKER_01: Exxon,
• 40:18
  SPEAKER_01: GM,
• 40:19
  SPEAKER_01: they are not going to become carbon negative.
• 40:21
  SPEAKER_01: They're going to become carbon negative, but
• 40:23
  through regulatory issues and social pressures due to buying
• 40:26
  carbon credits.
• 40:27
  SPEAKER_01: And the highest trading credits,
• 40:28
  SPEAKER_01: which we eventually think will be nature credits,
• 40:30
  SPEAKER_01: will be,
• 40:31
  SPEAKER_01: they are annuity-based systems.
• 40:32
  So a lot of these people are selling carbon credit annuity
• 40:36
  systems around the
• 40:38
  SPEAKER_01: coolest stuff and the coolest projects out there.
• 40:40
  SPEAKER_01: And right now, a lot of those are like allergy-based systems.
• 40:43
  SPEAKER_01: I'd argue mammoths are significantly better analogy.
• 40:46
  SPEAKER_02: So Exxon buys like 10,000 woolly mammoths a year or something like that?
• 40:51
  SPEAKER_01: I know it sounds crazy, but that is the world that it currently exists.
• 40:54
  SPEAKER_01: It's not a future that we have to predict.
• 40:56
  SPEAKER_01: It exists today, right?
• 40:58
  SPEAKER_01: And then when you do that in partnership with governments,
• 41:01
  SPEAKER_01: right,
• 41:01
  SPEAKER_01: that are going to be driving ecotourism,
• 41:04
  SPEAKER_01: carbon sequestration,
• 41:05
  SPEAKER_01: improvements to the land,
• 41:07
  you can build these public-private partnerships that are
• 41:09
  actually quite lucrative,
• 41:11
  SPEAKER_01: right?
• 41:11
  SPEAKER_01: So we've got nine-figure...
• 41:13
  opportunities that are annual reoccurring revenue partnerships
• 41:16
  with several
• 41:17
  SPEAKER_01: governments around the world,
• 41:18
  SPEAKER_01: right?
• 41:18
  SPEAKER_01: Like Colossal doesn't spend a trillion dollars a year, right?
• 41:21
  SPEAKER_01: And so we get,
• 41:22
  SPEAKER_01: we go from losing lots of money,
• 41:24
  SPEAKER_01: creating lots of option value,
• 41:26
  SPEAKER_01: being really cool as we both generally agree and inspiring people,
• 41:30
  SPEAKER_01: helping nature to,
• 41:31
  SPEAKER_01: oh,
• 41:31
  SPEAKER_01: wow,
• 41:32
  SPEAKER_01: we're,
• 41:32
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 41:33
  SPEAKER_01: we've got,
• 41:33
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 41:34
  SPEAKER_01: $500 million in ARR, right?
• 41:36
  SPEAKER_01: So I am a capitalist, right?
• 41:39
  SPEAKER_01: I think you can create impact and create value at the same time.
• 41:44
  SPEAKER_01: Now we also want to inspire.
• 41:45
  SPEAKER_01: So we get that magic triangle and this is perfect.
• 41:48
  But I do think that the long-term annuities from those
• 41:52
  government partnerships is
• 41:53
  SPEAKER_01: pretty interesting.
• 41:54
  SPEAKER_01: And then the next thing,
• 41:55
  SPEAKER_01: this is what I spoke about at the World Economic Forum,
• 41:57
  SPEAKER_01: is that countries are now calling as saying,
• 42:01
  SPEAKER_01: hey,
• 42:01
  SPEAKER_01: we're spending...
• 42:03
  SPEAKER_01: $20 million to save this critically endangered species.
• 42:07
  SPEAKER_01: If everything works out,
• 42:08
  SPEAKER_01: it's going to cost us,
• 42:09
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 42:10
  SPEAKER_01: a half,
• 42:10
  SPEAKER_01: a quarter billion to half a billion dollars.
• 42:12
  SPEAKER_01: And it's going to take us 15, 18 years.
• 42:16
  SPEAKER_01: We can come in because they're not self-selecting the sexes, right?
• 42:19
  SPEAKER_01: They need breedable females.
• 42:20
  SPEAKER_01: They can't engineer in genetic diversity, right?
• 42:23
  SPEAKER_01: So they have to just kind of let nature play its course.
• 42:26
  We can come in and we can shorten that 20,
• 42:29
  25 year timeline to three years.
• 42:31
  SPEAKER_01: We can do it for
• 42:32
  SPEAKER_01: $50 million and then get ongoing license fees to the tech.
• 42:38
  SPEAKER_01: And that for us is a pretty interesting business.
• 42:42
  SPEAKER_01: And more importantly,
• 42:43
  SPEAKER_01: it helps save the species,
• 42:44
  SPEAKER_01: helps the country,
• 42:45
  SPEAKER_01: whether that's ecotourism,
• 42:46
  SPEAKER_01: national pride,
• 42:47
  SPEAKER_01: whatever the reason is.
• 42:48
  And it also saves the country hundreds of millions of dollars
• 42:51
  that can go into
• 42:52
  SPEAKER_01: conservation, education, other programs that help that country.
• 42:56
  So,
• 42:57
  you know,
• 42:58
  government contracts is also a new leading component of our model.
• 43:04
  SPEAKER_02: It's like a super fascinating way to think about it.
• 43:08
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, the carbon credit stuff is already.
• 43:11
  SPEAKER_01: But you know about open source, right?
• 43:13
  SPEAKER_01: And so think about applying open source to this, right?
• 43:16
  SPEAKER_01: So open source,
• 43:17
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 43:18
  SPEAKER_01: you make,
• 43:18
  SPEAKER_01: you become the best,
• 43:19
  SPEAKER_01: you build the community and you say it's free for everyone.
• 43:22
  So you can use our,
• 43:23
  any conservationist or government can use our tech for free.
• 43:25
  SPEAKER_01: But just like an open source,
• 43:27
  SPEAKER_01: you have,
• 43:27
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 43:28
  SPEAKER_01: if you're like Microsoft,
• 43:29
  SPEAKER_01: you have people use the open source code.
• 43:31
  You have your developers play around with it and they're like,
• 43:33
  this is great.
• 43:34
  SPEAKER_01: But now we have to go implement this for like Toyota.
• 43:37
  And so we don't want our people tinkering around with the open
• 43:39
  source code.
• 43:40
  We want to call the people that made it like the red hats of
• 43:43
  the world and say,
• 43:44
  SPEAKER_01: we need you to go implement a $5 billion problem for us.
• 43:48
  SPEAKER_01: Even though it's available for free, that's cute.
• 43:51
  SPEAKER_01: We really want the people that did it to do the work.
• 43:53
  SPEAKER_01: And so it's applying that open source model to the tech.
• 43:57
  SPEAKER_01: So anybody can use our tech,
• 43:59
  SPEAKER_01: but if you want us to then go implement resources on it,
• 44:02
  SPEAKER_01: then obviously there's a cost.
• 44:04
  SPEAKER_02: I'm with you on how you're thinking about this.
• 44:07
  SPEAKER_02: My...
• 44:08
  SPEAKER_02: In my experience,
• 44:09
  SPEAKER_02: the two things that seem to take the longest,
• 44:12
  SPEAKER_02: that are my favorite,
• 44:13
  SPEAKER_02: but that seem to take the longest,
• 44:14
  SPEAKER_02: are biotech and aerospace.
• 44:16
  And anytime anyone gives me a date in aerospace,
• 44:20
  I add four or five years onto it.
• 44:22
  SPEAKER_02: I think that's generous.
• 44:24
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 44:25
  SPEAKER_02: When I hear,
• 44:26
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 44:26
  SPEAKER_02: woolly mammoth by 2028,
• 44:29
  SPEAKER_02: I have to be honest,
• 44:30
  SPEAKER_02: in my head,
• 44:30
  SPEAKER_02: I'm thinking not,
• 44:32
  SPEAKER_02: you know...
• 44:33
  SPEAKER_01: And that's okay, right?
• 44:35
  SPEAKER_01: I believe that work...
• 44:37
  SPEAKER_01: A much smarter person than me said that work fills the time allotted,
• 44:40
  SPEAKER_01: right?
• 44:41
  SPEAKER_01: And so we're in the editing.
• 44:42
  SPEAKER_01: We looked at the work.
• 44:43
  SPEAKER_01: We said, how fast can we get there?
• 44:45
  SPEAKER_01: And we're in the editing phase, right?
• 44:49
  SPEAKER_01: So we're in the editing phase.
• 44:51
  SPEAKER_01: We're not in the like, okay...
• 44:53
  SPEAKER_01: Maybe we should figure out how to make a edit, right?
• 44:55
  SPEAKER_01: So we have 65 gene targets.
• 44:58
  SPEAKER_01: We've already made 25 of them.
• 44:59
  SPEAKER_01: They're stably integrated.
• 45:01
  I think by the end of this year,
• 45:02
  we'll have over a thousand edits in the thylacine.
• 45:05
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, so we're making crazy edits.
• 45:06
  SPEAKER_01: What I will tell you though, here's the bet I will make.
• 45:10
  I'll make a bet that says before 2028,
• 45:12
  we will have an extinct animal back.
• 45:15
  SPEAKER_01: Uh,
• 45:15
  SPEAKER_01: it won't be the mammoth,
• 45:16
  SPEAKER_01: but I would bet that,
• 45:18
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 45:18
  SPEAKER_01: where based on where we are before 2028,
• 45:20
  SPEAKER_01: we'll see the world will see his first animal.
• 45:23
  SPEAKER_02: Just a small first mammal.
• 45:26
  SPEAKER_01: First extinct animal.
• 45:27
  SPEAKER_02: Animal.
• 45:27
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 45:28
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 45:28
  SPEAKER_02: So something just with less, less genes to, to deal with.
• 45:32
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 45:33
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 45:33
  SPEAKER_02: Um, how, how much we talked a lot about, about gene editing, um,
• 45:40
  SPEAKER_02: You know, and I, there's this whole field of these things called IPSCs.
• 45:44
  SPEAKER_02: They're these pluripotent stem cells.
• 45:48
  SPEAKER_02: Let me take a crack at explaining it and then you can fix everything.
• 45:51
  SPEAKER_02: But,
• 45:52
  SPEAKER_02: but,
• 45:52
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 45:52
  SPEAKER_02: about 20 years ago or 15 years ago,
• 45:55
  this Japanese researcher named Yamanaka discovered these four
• 46:00
  proteins that they
• 46:01
  SPEAKER_02: called transcription factors that came.
• 46:03
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 46:03
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 46:04
  SPEAKER_02: Take any cell,
• 46:05
  SPEAKER_02: even take like a skin cell off an old animal and you hit it with these
• 46:11
  SPEAKER_02: transcription factors and it gets taken back to a stem cell,
• 46:15
  like the kinds of things people always hear about with
• 46:17
  embryonic stem cells,
• 46:18
  SPEAKER_02: this natural state.
• 46:20
  SPEAKER_02: But you haven't had to get an embryo.
• 46:23
  SPEAKER_02: You've made it in a lab.
• 46:25
  SPEAKER_02: And then you can do all kinds of interesting things with these cells,
• 46:29
  SPEAKER_02: although it's a science that's a work in progress.
• 46:32
  SPEAKER_02: When I was reading...
• 46:34
  SPEAKER_02: about you guys,
• 46:34
  SPEAKER_02: it seemed like at least in,
• 46:36
  SPEAKER_02: in please correct me,
• 46:38
  SPEAKER_02: but it seemed like on the artificial womb part,
• 46:41
  SPEAKER_02: maybe these could come into effect where you're,
• 46:43
  you're having cells and turning them into placenta type cells
• 46:48
  or uterine cells.
• 46:49
  SPEAKER_02: Um, tell me, tell me where iPSCs fit into this.
• 46:52
  SPEAKER_02: Cause that seemed like a second key part of the puzzle.
• 46:56
  So one,
• 46:57
  just cause I always,
• 46:58
  you know,
• 46:58
  I do want to make sure that it's clear that
• 47:00
  SPEAKER_01: we also want to help conservation.
• 47:02
  SPEAKER_01: They're huge for conservation, right?
• 47:03
  SPEAKER_01: So if you bank these induced pluripotent stem cells or iPSCs for them,
• 47:07
  SPEAKER_01: the idea is using those transcription factors,
• 47:09
  SPEAKER_01: you can create any type of cell,
• 47:12
  SPEAKER_01: including gametes,
• 47:13
  SPEAKER_01: so egg and sperm,
• 47:14
  SPEAKER_01: right?
• 47:15
  SPEAKER_01: So a process called gametogenesis.
• 47:16
  SPEAKER_01: Harder than making like skin cells,
• 47:19
  SPEAKER_01: but still,
• 47:20
  SPEAKER_01: if you get the cocktails,
• 47:21
  SPEAKER_01: right,
• 47:21
  SPEAKER_01: of those transcription factors,
• 47:22
  SPEAKER_01: you can make anything including eggs.
• 47:24
  SPEAKER_01: So I think
• 47:25
  SPEAKER_01: to my biobanking,
• 47:26
  SPEAKER_01: um,
• 47:27
  SPEAKER_01: mantra right now,
• 47:28
  SPEAKER_01: uh,
• 47:29
  SPEAKER_01: we need to backup cells and we need to create IPCs for all life.
• 47:33
  SPEAKER_02: So you're saying just to break this down,
• 47:34
  you're saying if you get these cells from different animals and
• 47:39
  we biobank them,
• 47:40
  SPEAKER_02: then we haven't perfected this quite yet,
• 47:43
  SPEAKER_02: but in the future you should be able to create a baby of,
• 47:48
  SPEAKER_02: of any of those animals.
• 47:49
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 47:49
  SPEAKER_01: So I think
• 47:51
  SPEAKER_01: But I think biobanking,
• 47:53
  SPEAKER_01: not just tissue samples and cells in population diversity,
• 47:55
  SPEAKER_01: but also specifically then creating IPSCs for all of them is key,
• 48:00
  SPEAKER_01: right?
• 48:01
  SPEAKER_01: And what it allows us to do is kind of two, is I'd say kind of threefold.
• 48:04
  SPEAKER_01: One, test different tissue types.
• 48:06
  SPEAKER_01: So we actually have hair organoids.
• 48:11
  SPEAKER_01: growing in the lab of mammoth hair, right?
• 48:13
  SPEAKER_01: So we don't have to grow a mammoth to see if the hair is working, right?
• 48:17
  SPEAKER_01: We don't have to go through this whole process and say, it's not hairy.
• 48:20
  SPEAKER_01: What happened, right?
• 48:21
  So we can test the edits that we're making and then
• 48:25
  hyper-localize that by creating
• 48:28
  SPEAKER_01: in a Petri dish,
• 48:29
  SPEAKER_01: these cells,
• 48:30
  SPEAKER_01: and we can test the expression.
• 48:31
  SPEAKER_02: What's a hair organoid?
• 48:33
  SPEAKER_02: It's a bunch of hair cells growing in a Petri dish?
• 48:35
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it's like hair.
• 48:36
  SPEAKER_01: It looks like cells that have hair growing.
• 48:38
  SPEAKER_01: It's kind of gross and weird.
• 48:39
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 48:40
  SPEAKER_01: And, uh, it's exactly as you probably imagine it, right?
• 48:43
  SPEAKER_01: Only probably less fluffy.
• 48:45
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and so, uh, so, so you can do that.
• 48:48
  SPEAKER_01: The other thing you can do to your point is, um, what's great for us.
• 48:51
  SPEAKER_01: Uh,
• 48:52
  my exodev team will hate me saying this because it's a massive oversimplification,
• 48:56
  SPEAKER_01: simplification,
• 48:57
  SPEAKER_01: but the,
• 48:58
  SPEAKER_01: um,
• 48:59
  SPEAKER_01: uh,
• 49:00
  SPEAKER_01: the,
• 49:00
  SPEAKER_01: we,
• 49:00
  SPEAKER_01: we,
• 49:01
  SPEAKER_01: the embryo does so much.
• 49:03
  SPEAKER_01: It creates this awesome thing called the placenta.
• 49:05
  SPEAKER_01: And I've never,
• 49:06
  SPEAKER_01: it's probably my favorite thing in biology is the placenta because it,
• 49:11
  SPEAKER_01: it's like right out of the movie alien,
• 49:12
  SPEAKER_01: right?
• 49:13
  SPEAKER_01: It like burst, it hatches.
• 49:15
  SPEAKER_01: It, they literally call it hatching.
• 49:17
  SPEAKER_01: It hatches out of this process and then it invades and it attaches.
• 49:21
  SPEAKER_01: It's like, it's literally like an alien, right?
• 49:24
  It invades into this like decidualized endometrial,
• 49:27
  like the uterine wall,
• 49:28
  right?
• 49:29
  SPEAKER_01: And then it,
• 49:30
  sucks the nutrients out and pushes the extra amount does all
• 49:33
  the gas and oxygen
• 49:34
  exchange right and and yeah you got amniotic fluid and stuff
• 49:37
  but but but it's all
• 49:38
  of that what's great for us is we don't have to recreate that
• 49:41
  biology does that for
• 49:42
  us and so we this is the oversimplification that people will be
• 49:46
  very frustrated
• 49:46
  about we just have to create that right environment give it all
• 49:50
  the right signaling
• 49:50
  cues at every single stage of the carnegie stages of
• 49:53
  development that's kind of how
• 49:54
  SPEAKER_01: we map the
• 49:55
  uh,
• 49:55
  development of a species or a development of an animal to a,
• 49:58
  from a zygote to an animal.
• 50:00
  SPEAKER_01: And then,
• 50:00
  SPEAKER_01: um,
• 50:01
  SPEAKER_01: uh,
• 50:01
  SPEAKER_01: and then,
• 50:02
  SPEAKER_01: and then give it a uterine wall or synthetic uterine wall that wants to,
• 50:06
  SPEAKER_01: that it wants to join into.
• 50:07
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 50:07
  And so it's,
• 50:08
  we,
• 50:08
  we as humanity have not been very successful yet at,
• 50:12
  um,
• 50:13
  uh,
• 50:13
  SPEAKER_01: at keeping organs alive for long periods of time, right?
• 50:16
  SPEAKER_01: And so you've got,
• 50:18
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 50:18
  SPEAKER_01: Doris Taylor's on our advisory board,
• 50:19
  SPEAKER_01: dude,
• 50:19
  SPEAKER_01: she's done great stuff with ghost hearts and decellularization.
• 50:22
  George is taking a more synthetic biology approach to try to
• 50:26
  create an entire
• 50:27
  SPEAKER_01: closed system with it.
• 50:28
  SPEAKER_01: So you have different approaches and shots on goal on this,
• 50:31
  SPEAKER_01: but we are good at keeping just tissue cell,
• 50:34
  SPEAKER_01: just specific tissue cells alive,
• 50:36
  SPEAKER_01: not the full organ structure.
• 50:37
  So this is where,
• 50:38
  uh,
• 50:38
  the IPSCs can come in handy is that we can make those uterine cells.
• 50:42
  SPEAKER_01: And just like you do heart grafting on like a stent or whatnot,
• 50:45
  SPEAKER_01: we can graft on these very small microtubules that we 3d print.
• 50:50
  SPEAKER_01: So, um, so that's pretty awesome.
• 50:52
  SPEAKER_01: Uh,
• 50:52
  SPEAKER_01: you also can use,
• 50:53
  SPEAKER_01: so outside the growing,
• 50:55
  SPEAKER_01: testing things like in vitro in like cell in,
• 50:58
  SPEAKER_01: uh,
• 50:58
  SPEAKER_01: in,
• 50:59
  SPEAKER_01: in like labs of the,
• 51:00
  SPEAKER_01: uh,
• 51:01
  SPEAKER_01: hair organoids or doing artificial womb type stuff.
• 51:05
  SPEAKER_01: You know, we want to perfect gamenogenesis.
• 51:07
  SPEAKER_01: So like we work on the Northern White Rhino Project.
• 51:09
  Well,
• 51:09
  they've gone in,
• 51:11
  Dr.
• 51:12
  Thomas Hildebrandt and the biorescue team has gone in and
• 51:14
  extracted
• 51:16
  SPEAKER_01: uh,
• 51:17
  SPEAKER_01: 18,
• 51:17
  SPEAKER_01: uh,
• 51:17
  SPEAKER_01: egg cells that they fertilize with the dead,
• 51:19
  SPEAKER_01: uh,
• 51:19
  SPEAKER_01: with Sudan and a dead male,
• 51:21
  SPEAKER_01: the only,
• 51:21
  SPEAKER_01: the last males,
• 51:23
  SPEAKER_01: uh,
• 51:23
  SPEAKER_01: sperm and to create 18 embryos.
• 51:25
  SPEAKER_01: But it's like,
• 51:26
  SPEAKER_01: if we can just take those skin cells from the rhino,
• 51:29
  SPEAKER_01: make IPSCs and then,
• 51:31
  SPEAKER_01: uh,
• 51:32
  SPEAKER_01: derive,
• 51:33
  SPEAKER_01: go through a process of gametogenesis,
• 51:35
  SPEAKER_01: these egg cells,
• 51:36
  SPEAKER_01: guess what?
• 51:37
  We have an endless supply of egg cells for northern white
• 51:41
  rhinos that we can then
• 51:42
  SPEAKER_01: either engineer in genetic diversity,
• 51:45
  SPEAKER_01: we can fertilize,
• 51:46
  SPEAKER_01: you create redundant populations.
• 51:48
  And from an animal welfare perspective,
• 51:50
  you never have to touch the animal.
• 51:51
  You don't have to anesthetize the animal and go in and extract
• 51:55
  egg cells like you do in humans.
• 51:56
  SPEAKER_01: So this gametogenesis has to happen from IPSCs.
• 52:00
  So I think ultimately the biggest thing is for us to make egg
• 52:03
  cells for all of our species.
• 52:05
  SPEAKER_02: So, okay.
• 52:06
  SPEAKER_02: All right.
• 52:07
  SPEAKER_02: And then just a couple more questions for you.
• 52:10
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, it's all so fascinating.
• 52:12
  SPEAKER_00: I love talking about this.
• 52:14
  SPEAKER_00: As much as you ever want to talk about it, I'm always a game.
• 52:16
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you.
• 52:17
  SPEAKER_02: I mean,
• 52:17
  SPEAKER_02: in the big picture,
• 52:18
  SPEAKER_02: you guys must face...
• 52:19
  SPEAKER_02: My head's just...
• 52:20
  SPEAKER_02: You must face weird questions because...
• 52:23
  SPEAKER_02: On the one hand, it's humans who have caused a lot of this harm.
• 52:29
  SPEAKER_02: I can also see that if you talk about what you're trying to do,
• 52:34
  this very same people who might be environmentalists and upset
• 52:38
  about what humans
• 52:39
  have done would then be some of your biggest critics or have
• 52:45
  the most concerns of,
• 52:46
  SPEAKER_02: oh,
• 52:46
  SPEAKER_02: and now you're geoengineering,
• 52:48
  SPEAKER_02: we're just...
• 52:51
  SPEAKER_02: Even if it,
• 52:52
  SPEAKER_02: even if it worked out,
• 52:53
  SPEAKER_02: it's,
• 52:53
  SPEAKER_02: there's something,
• 52:54
  SPEAKER_02: um,
• 52:55
  SPEAKER_02: it's like,
• 52:55
  SPEAKER_02: oh,
• 52:56
  SPEAKER_02: those humans are,
• 52:57
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 52:57
  SPEAKER_02: doing weird stuff again.
• 52:58
  SPEAKER_02: They're just going to complicate things.
• 53:00
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, do you get where I'm going?
• 53:02
  Where we're like,
• 53:03
  even you're trying to fix this problem that we've already made,
• 53:07
  but.
• 53:07
  SPEAKER_02: it's kind of weird.
• 53:08
  SPEAKER_02: And, and maybe you're just a mad scientist.
• 53:11
  SPEAKER_02: It's going to make it all worse.
• 53:12
  SPEAKER_02: I'm sure, I'm sure you've heard something like that.
• 53:14
  SPEAKER_01: We've heard, we've heard playing God word.
• 53:17
  SPEAKER_01: We've heard, why don't you just donate money for conservation?
• 53:19
  SPEAKER_01: We've, we've heard, we've heard every version of it.
• 53:21
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 53:21
  SPEAKER_01: And,
• 53:22
  SPEAKER_01: We have an attitude of, we're transparent about everything we can.
• 53:27
  SPEAKER_01: We have this attitude that it's not our job to persuade anyone.
• 53:31
  SPEAKER_01: It's just our job to educate.
• 53:32
  I think there needs to be a thousand people trying to solve the
• 53:34
  biodiversity crisis.
• 53:35
  SPEAKER_01: This is what we're doing.
• 53:37
  SPEAKER_01: I'm not saying that we're right.
• 53:38
  SPEAKER_01: This is what we're doing.
• 53:39
  SPEAKER_01: It seems to be working.
• 53:41
  And all of the tech that we're making for conservation is being
• 53:44
  applied to the 48
• 53:46
  SPEAKER_01: top conservation partners in the world.
• 53:48
  SPEAKER_01: Right?
• 53:48
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 53:49
  SPEAKER_01: If we were doing things wrong,
• 53:50
  SPEAKER_01: I don't think we would be able to raise capital for conservation.
• 53:53
  SPEAKER_01: We raised $50 million for our foundation.
• 53:55
  I don't think that we would have any conservation partners
• 53:58
  partnering with us,
• 53:59
  SPEAKER_01: let alone some of the top people in the entire world,
• 54:02
  SPEAKER_01: right?
• 54:03
  SPEAKER_01: So I think that we're doing a lot of things right.
• 54:06
  SPEAKER_01: And we're also showing very quick wins like EEHV,
• 54:10
  SPEAKER_01: like engineering marsupials to kill the cane toads in Australia,
• 54:13
  SPEAKER_01: right?
• 54:14
  SPEAKER_01: Um,
• 54:14
  SPEAKER_01: like,
• 54:14
  SPEAKER_01: uh,
• 54:14
  SPEAKER_01: the work we're doing on the induced pluripotent stem cells,
• 54:17
  SPEAKER_01: uh,
• 54:17
  SPEAKER_01: for,
• 54:18
  SPEAKER_01: um,
• 54:18
  SPEAKER_01: and,
• 54:19
  SPEAKER_01: and,
• 54:19
  SPEAKER_01: uh,
• 54:19
  SPEAKER_01: genetic diversity in the Northern white rhinos.
• 54:21
  SPEAKER_01: So they were doing a lot of stuff.
• 54:22
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 54:22
  SPEAKER_01: But the,
• 54:23
  the biggest thing that I think we have done right on the whole
• 54:25
  critic point is that
• 54:26
  SPEAKER_01: we've ran towards critics.
• 54:27
  Like Lou Vidal and hated us when we launched the company and
• 54:30
  he's the number one
• 54:30
  SPEAKER_01: mammoth researcher in the world.
• 54:32
  SPEAKER_01: Now he sits next to me every year at the explorers club dinner.
• 54:36
  SPEAKER_01: We get most of our mammoth genomes from him.
• 54:38
  I talked to him all the time,
• 54:39
  best Shapiro,
• 54:40
  you know,
• 54:41
  national Academy of science award winner.
• 54:43
  SPEAKER_01: HHMI,
• 54:44
  SPEAKER_01: biggest HDNA lab in the world,
• 54:46
  SPEAKER_01: number one person in the world in HDNA,
• 54:47
  SPEAKER_01: left academia and joined us as chief science officer,
• 54:51
  SPEAKER_01: massively bashed us when we launched the company,
• 54:53
  SPEAKER_01: right?
• 54:53
  And so I think the best thing that we've done is we run towards
• 54:57
  those critics and
• 54:57
  SPEAKER_01: we're like,
• 54:58
  SPEAKER_01: how could we do stuff better,
• 54:59
  SPEAKER_01: right?
• 54:59
  Like,
• 55:00
  you know,
• 55:00
  George said that bringing back mammoths will save the world.
• 55:03
  SPEAKER_01: Lou Vidalin said, no, it won't.
• 55:04
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm like, cool, you guys are both smart.
• 55:07
  Let's go to dinner and talk about it because maybe George is
• 55:10
  too far left and maybe
• 55:11
  SPEAKER_01: Lou is too far right.
• 55:12
  SPEAKER_01: And guess what?
• 55:14
  they found a common ground that they agree on that it will be beneficial.
• 55:17
  SPEAKER_01: They just had, they had different metrics of beneficial, right?
• 55:20
  SPEAKER_01: So,
• 55:20
  SPEAKER_01: so I think we've,
• 55:22
  SPEAKER_01: the best thing that Colossal has done,
• 55:23
  SPEAKER_01: I don't think is the stem cell reprogramming or productized,
• 55:26
  SPEAKER_01: trying to productize the process of innovation.
• 55:30
  SPEAKER_01: I think that,
• 55:31
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 55:31
  SPEAKER_01: us really running towards our biggest critics has been our secret sauce,
• 55:35
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 55:35
  SPEAKER_01: like that has been our attitude.
• 55:37
  SPEAKER_01: Now,
• 55:38
  SPEAKER_01: there's always people you can't please.
• 55:40
  SPEAKER_01: And,
• 55:40
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 55:41
  SPEAKER_01: there's people,
• 55:42
  SPEAKER_01: like,
• 55:42
  SPEAKER_01: sometimes we get feedback from,
• 55:44
  SPEAKER_01: like,
• 55:44
  SPEAKER_01: a philosopher that's like,
• 55:45
  SPEAKER_01: well,
• 55:45
  SPEAKER_01: Gina,
• 55:46
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 55:47
  SPEAKER_01: in my doctorate,
• 55:48
  SPEAKER_01: in,
• 55:49
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 55:49
  SPEAKER_01: in the doctorate that I got in,
• 55:50
  SPEAKER_01: like,
• 55:51
  SPEAKER_01: art history,
• 55:52
  SPEAKER_01: genome engineering isn't possible at that scale.
• 55:54
  SPEAKER_01: It's like, okay, well...
• 55:56
  SPEAKER_01: That's not helpful because you don't understand genome engineering.
• 56:00
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 56:00
  SPEAKER_01: But we, we get a lot of museum, uh, curators, right.
• 56:05
  SPEAKER_01: Whose job it is, is like to dust the formaldehyde off dead animals.
• 56:09
  And they say,
• 56:10
  yeah,
• 56:11
  but,
• 56:11
  but you know,
• 56:12
  induced poripodine stem cells don't seem real to me.
• 56:14
  SPEAKER_01: It's like, right.
• 56:15
  SPEAKER_01: Well, that's not helpful feedback, Kevin.
• 56:18
  SPEAKER_02: And the, I would encourage people to, to,
• 56:25
  google you guys and do some of the reading about where you've
• 56:29
  you've found some of
• 56:30
  the cells for things like that the tasmanian tiger it's pretty
• 56:34
  fascinating to see
• 56:35
  see how people actually manage to get some of these samples i
• 56:38
  want to ask a more
• 56:39
  futuristic question though so i would imagine you would if you
• 56:44
  were bringing back
• 56:44
  the woolly mammoth to the arctic you wouldn't why i'm sure you
• 56:48
  want to do this
• 56:50
  animal by animal,
• 56:51
  make sure nothing weird is going on with the first ones you make.
• 56:55
  But at some point,
• 56:56
  you don't want to just put one woolly mammoth up there by itself.
• 57:00
  SPEAKER_02: You want it to have family and friends and go off to thrive.
• 57:06
  SPEAKER_01: And diversity so it can breed anymore.
• 57:08
  Yeah,
• 57:09
  but how do we know that if we drop 100 woolly mammoths in the
• 57:13
  Arctic that...
• 57:15
  SPEAKER_02: they'll even know what to do to survive.
• 57:19
  Yeah,
• 57:19
  so what's great is a lot of that's already programmed into
• 57:21
  their DNA,
• 57:22
  right?
• 57:22
  SPEAKER_01: And so we had the same conversation about,
• 57:25
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 57:25
  SPEAKER_01: a fat-tailed dunard is the size of a mouse and a thylacine,
• 57:29
  SPEAKER_01: as you know,
• 57:29
  SPEAKER_01: is a wolf-sized marsupial.
• 57:31
  SPEAKER_01: And so they're like,
• 57:32
  SPEAKER_01: But how will it know how to eat?
• 57:34
  SPEAKER_01: And it's like, well, you know, they're both carnivores.
• 57:37
  SPEAKER_01: It's actually baseline programmed.
• 57:38
  And there's been tons of studies on rewilding that shows if you
• 57:42
  reintroduce these species,
• 57:43
  SPEAKER_01: they're not going to say,
• 57:44
  SPEAKER_01: well,
• 57:45
  SPEAKER_01: no one taught me how to drink water.
• 57:47
  SPEAKER_01: No one taught me how to kill an animal, right?
• 57:48
  And so there is some of that work that's learned,
• 57:52
  but a lot of it is just rewilding.
• 57:54
  SPEAKER_01: And so we work with, um, so on the elephant specific work, right?
• 57:59
  SPEAKER_01: So we work with a group in Botswana called elephant Havens,
• 58:02
  SPEAKER_01: and we work with a group called save the elephants in Kenya.
• 58:05
  And we're actually using AI and FLIR cameras and a bunch of
• 58:07
  tools to do,
• 58:08
  uh,
• 58:08
  uh,
• 58:09
  uh,
• 58:10
  SPEAKER_01: elephant migratory pattern research and understanding herd dynamics,
• 58:14
  SPEAKER_01: elephant havens actually rescues,
• 58:17
  SPEAKER_01: uh,
• 58:17
  SPEAKER_01: orphaned elephants and,
• 58:19
  SPEAKER_01: uh,
• 58:19
  SPEAKER_01: and,
• 58:19
  SPEAKER_01: and helps reestablish herds.
• 58:21
  SPEAKER_01: And what's great about elephants is they're social animals.
• 58:23
  SPEAKER_01: We would never make just one.
• 58:25
  SPEAKER_01: And so they even adopt,
• 58:26
  sometimes elephants will adopt things like dogs and stuff like
• 58:29
  that into their herds.
• 58:30
  SPEAKER_01: It's quite incredible.
• 58:32
  SPEAKER_01: And so for us,
• 58:33
  SPEAKER_01: before we get to mammoths,
• 58:34
  SPEAKER_01: before we get to thylacines,
• 58:36
  SPEAKER_01: we want to spend that time,
• 58:37
  SPEAKER_01: uh,
• 58:37
  SPEAKER_01: not just on,
• 58:38
  SPEAKER_01: uh,
• 58:39
  SPEAKER_01: the ecological benefits,
• 58:40
  SPEAKER_01: which we've talked about,
• 58:41
  SPEAKER_01: but on the social care of the animals,
• 58:43
  SPEAKER_01: right?
• 58:43
  So we're certified by American Humane,
• 58:45
  which is the oldest humane organization in the world.
• 58:47
  SPEAKER_01: Very hard to get that.
• 58:48
  SPEAKER_01: And so we work with them on how do we do this in the best way.
• 58:51
  We work with the rewilding groups that have done it in like
• 58:53
  Yellowstone with wolves and others.
• 58:55
  SPEAKER_01: But then we also like work on a species by species basis.
• 58:57
  SPEAKER_01: So we go to Botswana,
• 58:59
  SPEAKER_01: we work with them,
• 59:00
  SPEAKER_01: we provide technologies with them,
• 59:01
  SPEAKER_01: our teams work with them and like,
• 59:02
  SPEAKER_01: okay,
• 59:03
  How do we build tech that makes it better for you to understand
• 59:06
  elephant social
• 59:07
  SPEAKER_01: cues and rewilding orphan elephants to rebuild herds?
• 59:11
  SPEAKER_01: And then,
• 59:11
  SPEAKER_01: great,
• 59:12
  SPEAKER_01: that helps elephants today,
• 59:13
  SPEAKER_01: but also selfishly,
• 59:14
  SPEAKER_01: it teaches us how do we engineer those herds inorganically in mammoths.
• 59:20
  So a lot of the conservation work has a dual purpose of helping
• 59:25
  today grow.
• 59:25
  SPEAKER_01: but also applying us insights so that we can be better in the future.
• 59:29
  SPEAKER_01: Like they did this with the California condors.
• 59:31
  They've done it enough,
• 59:32
  much smarter people than us have done it with animals in field.
• 59:36
  And we rely a lot on that expertise and we've gone and
• 59:39
  partnered with those people early.
• 59:40
  So we're not just going to get to elephants and put them
• 59:42
  together and hope for the best.
• 59:45
  SPEAKER_02: I would hope not.
• 59:45
  SPEAKER_02: It would be interesting to see how it plays out.
• 59:48
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 59:49
  SPEAKER_01: Most people don't realize this.
• 59:49
  SPEAKER_01: The work and the science is really hard.
• 59:52
  SPEAKER_01: All of the rewilding stuff,
• 59:54
  all the working with indigenous people groups and private
• 59:56
  landowners and working
• 59:58
  SPEAKER_01: with conservation groups,
• 59:59
  SPEAKER_01: that is just as much work as the science here.
• 1:00:02
  SPEAKER_01: And I think people just think of us as the folks in the lab doing it,
• 1:00:06
  SPEAKER_01: but that's literally half the battle.
• 1:00:09
  SPEAKER_02: All right.
• 1:00:10
  I'm going to let you go in one second,
• 1:00:11
  but not before you tell us about the Explorers Club.
• 1:00:13
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 1:00:14
  SPEAKER_02: It's been around for a long time, all kinds of interesting people in it.
• 1:00:20
  How did you,
• 1:00:21
  well,
• 1:00:21
  please explain what,
• 1:00:23
  what it is and how you got involved and,
• 1:00:25
  and,
• 1:00:26
  SPEAKER_02: You're give me, give me your, your best exploit.
• 1:00:29
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 1:00:29
  SPEAKER_01: So I'm, I'm, I'm the board of trustees of the explorers club.
• 1:00:32
  SPEAKER_01: It's one of the old, it's the oldest exploration club.
• 1:00:34
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, it's very well known for its flag expedition.
• 1:00:37
  SPEAKER_01: So all of the biggest like world exploration moments,
• 1:00:40
  SPEAKER_01: like the bottom of the Marianas trench going to space and the moon,
• 1:00:45
  SPEAKER_01: uh,
• 1:00:45
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 1:00:45
  SPEAKER_01: like buzz,
• 1:00:46
  SPEAKER_01: our Aldrin carried our,
• 1:00:47
  SPEAKER_01: our flag to the moon.
• 1:00:49
  SPEAKER_01: the top of Everest,
• 1:00:51
  SPEAKER_01: North Pole,
• 1:00:51
  SPEAKER_01: South Pole,
• 1:00:53
  SPEAKER_01: all of those exploration feats were made by Explorers Club members.
• 1:00:59
  SPEAKER_01: I got interested in it because I'm very passionate.
• 1:01:01
  I travel a lot,
• 1:01:02
  both personally and professionally for this job and previous jobs.
• 1:01:06
  SPEAKER_01: And I love expeditions.
• 1:01:08
  SPEAKER_01: I love science.
• 1:01:09
  SPEAKER_01: I love nature.
• 1:01:10
  SPEAKER_01: So I
• 1:01:11
  SPEAKER_01: I did some work on,
• 1:01:12
  SPEAKER_01: on,
• 1:01:12
  SPEAKER_01: um,
• 1:01:13
  SPEAKER_01: uh,
• 1:01:13
  SPEAKER_01: uh,
• 1:01:14
  SPEAKER_01: pre-Incan,
• 1:01:15
  SPEAKER_01: um,
• 1:01:15
  SPEAKER_01: civilizations,
• 1:01:16
  SPEAKER_01: uh,
• 1:01:17
  SPEAKER_01: that was very interesting and,
• 1:01:18
  SPEAKER_01: and,
• 1:01:18
  SPEAKER_01: uh,
• 1:01:18
  SPEAKER_01: as not to get into the,
• 1:01:20
  SPEAKER_01: like the Graham Hancock world of interesting,
• 1:01:22
  SPEAKER_01: but like one step closer to reality than that.
• 1:01:24
  SPEAKER_01: I'm pretty into the Graham Hancock world.
• 1:01:26
  SPEAKER_01: No, I am too.
• 1:01:27
  SPEAKER_01: No, I am too.
• 1:01:28
  SPEAKER_01: Look, I love Graham.
• 1:01:29
  But there are some pretty interesting things and some pre-Incan civilizations,
• 1:01:34
  SPEAKER_01: I think,
• 1:01:35
  SPEAKER_01: in the next,
• 1:01:36
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 1:01:36
  SPEAKER_01: hopefully 10 years that will come out that predated them.
• 1:01:39
  SPEAKER_01: I did some work on that, you know, in the field.
• 1:01:42
  SPEAKER_01: And I was sharing that once.
• 1:01:43
  SPEAKER_01: And a friend of mine,
• 1:01:45
  SPEAKER_01: Richard Garriott,
• 1:01:46
  SPEAKER_01: because,
• 1:01:46
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 1:01:46
  SPEAKER_01: I own a gaming company that sold the Zynga.
• 1:01:48
  SPEAKER_01: Super interesting guy.
• 1:01:49
  SPEAKER_01: Or, or origin.
• 1:01:50
  SPEAKER_01: So he started origin systems and,
• 1:01:53
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 1:01:53
  SPEAKER_01: basically invented,
• 1:01:55
  SPEAKER_01: if you don't know Richard,
• 1:01:55
  SPEAKER_01: he invented Lord British,
• 1:01:57
  SPEAKER_01: invented a massive multiplayer gaming,
• 1:01:59
  SPEAKER_01: right?
• 1:01:59
  SPEAKER_01: Like that was him.
• 1:02:01
  SPEAKER_02: And so he's the...
• 1:02:03
  SPEAKER_02: I always think of him as like who Ready Player One was kind of based on.
• 1:02:09
  SPEAKER_01: 100%, right?
• 1:02:09
  SPEAKER_01: And he's the first commercial astronaut and went to the space station.
• 1:02:12
  SPEAKER_01: He's just awesome.
• 1:02:13
  SPEAKER_01: Like everything's just awesome about him.
• 1:02:15
  And so we have a passion for exploration and going on these adventures,
• 1:02:18
  right?
• 1:02:19
  SPEAKER_01: We always say that an expedition is just an adventure with purpose.
• 1:02:22
  And so I was familiar with it and I was talking about this
• 1:02:27
  Incan thing that I did and I was...
• 1:02:30
  SPEAKER_01: very passionate about it.
• 1:02:31
  SPEAKER_01: And I,
• 1:02:31
  SPEAKER_01: and he and I were catching up because we'd both known each other,
• 1:02:34
  SPEAKER_01: both from Austin or having cocktails.
• 1:02:37
  SPEAKER_01: And he's like, you should really get involved.
• 1:02:38
  SPEAKER_01: And I was like, I just don't have time.
• 1:02:40
  SPEAKER_01: I'm on the board of the planetary side and board all this.
• 1:02:42
  SPEAKER_01: I was like, I'm actually trying to get off things.
• 1:02:44
  SPEAKER_01: And he's like, listen, just come to the club.
• 1:02:47
  SPEAKER_01: So I went to the club in New York, the main headquarters and
• 1:02:50
  and sat around the bar hurdle and people were going on these
• 1:02:53
  crazy expeditions.
• 1:02:54
  SPEAKER_01: And I was like, yeah, I do need more of this in my life.
• 1:02:58
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 1:02:59
  SPEAKER_01: It's all about scientific discovery.
• 1:03:00
  SPEAKER_01: It's all about expeditions.
• 1:03:02
  SPEAKER_01: And, um, it's all about adventures.
• 1:03:04
  SPEAKER_01: It's like, it's, it's as close to like Indiana Jones.
• 1:03:07
  It's like the,
• 1:03:08
  if you could create a club of Indiana Jones,
• 1:03:10
  that's what we got here.
• 1:03:11
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 1:03:11
  SPEAKER_01: And so, um, uh, and so I wanted to do it and he asked me to do it.
• 1:03:15
  SPEAKER_01: I got involved.
• 1:03:16
  SPEAKER_01: I got super involved.
• 1:03:18
  SPEAKER_01: And then, um,
• 1:03:19
  SPEAKER_01: They asked me to,
• 1:03:20
  they started the board of trustees to oversee the board and
• 1:03:24
  oversee the general
• 1:03:25
  SPEAKER_01: long-term strategic direction.
• 1:03:27
  Board of trustees don't transition out and asked me to be an
• 1:03:30
  inaugural member.
• 1:03:32
  SPEAKER_01: And yeah, and ever since then, I've just been more and more involved.
• 1:03:37
  SPEAKER_01: And by the way, the club's awesome.
• 1:03:39
  SPEAKER_01: It's for everybody.
• 1:03:41
  SPEAKER_01: It's great.
• 1:03:42
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 1:03:42
  SPEAKER_02: When do we get to come film people telling stories at the bar?
• 1:03:47
  SPEAKER_02: And when do we get to film you and Richard taking me on a expedition?
• 1:03:52
  SPEAKER_01: Wait, I'm serious.
• 1:03:54
  SPEAKER_01: Let's connect offline.
• 1:03:55
  SPEAKER_01: So the ship, do you remember when the Shackleton ship was discovered?
• 1:04:00
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 1:04:02
  SPEAKER_02: Well, and I read the book about that.
• 1:04:04
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 1:04:04
  SPEAKER_01: And so that's, so, so that's Shackleton is Richard's favorite.
• 1:04:07
  So Richard is one of my best friends and Richard,
• 1:04:10
  um,
• 1:04:11
  CEO of the sports club.
• 1:04:12
  SPEAKER_01: Uh,
• 1:04:12
  SPEAKER_01: and,
• 1:04:12
  SPEAKER_01: uh,
• 1:04:13
  SPEAKER_01: Richard is,
• 1:04:14
  SPEAKER_01: uh,
• 1:04:14
  so we were supposed to go on that and then Richard couldn't go
• 1:04:17
  cause of COVID.
• 1:04:19
  I wasn't like,
• 1:04:20
  well,
• 1:04:20
  I don't want to go spend five weeks at sea with complete strangers.
• 1:04:23
  At least I was at Richard there and,
• 1:04:25
  and it was going to be a fun boondoggle.
• 1:04:27
  SPEAKER_01: And so, uh, so I didn't go cause Richard didn't go.
• 1:04:30
  SPEAKER_01: And then we're both sponsors of the trip.
• 1:04:31
  Then,
• 1:04:32
  uh,
• 1:04:32
  they got,
• 1:04:33
  my wife told me,
• 1:04:33
  he's like,
• 1:04:33
  they got stuck in the ice.
• 1:04:35
  SPEAKER_01: She'd be freaking out.
• 1:04:36
  SPEAKER_01: So they had stuck in the ice.
• 1:04:36
  SPEAKER_01: I was like, oh my gosh, I'd be totally freaking out.
• 1:04:39
  SPEAKER_01: Well, then they broke free and then they found it.
• 1:04:41
  SPEAKER_01: And I was like, oh my gosh, I'm so sad.
• 1:04:44
  SPEAKER_02: I, I was FOMO.
• 1:04:45
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 1:04:45
  SPEAKER_01: It's the most,
• 1:04:46
  SPEAKER_01: it's the most FOMO when they found the endurance,
• 1:04:49
  SPEAKER_01: it was like the most FOMO moment ever.
• 1:04:51
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I'm happy for society and the team.
• 1:04:53
  SPEAKER_01: And, but I was like, man, I could have been there.
• 1:04:55
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and so, yeah, so what we should do is, uh,
• 1:04:59
  SPEAKER_01: We should go,
• 1:04:59
  SPEAKER_01: we'll meet for drinks in New York at,
• 1:05:01
  SPEAKER_01: at the club and then we should do some stuff.
• 1:05:04
  SPEAKER_01: It'll be fun.
• 1:05:05
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 1:05:05
  SPEAKER_02: The TV episode was born.
• 1:05:07
  SPEAKER_02: Um, Ben, thank you so much for your time as I'm like a huge animal softy.
• 1:05:12
  SPEAKER_02: I'm sure there's going to be people who listen to this and think,
• 1:05:15
  SPEAKER_02: you know,
• 1:05:15
  SPEAKER_02: it's weird and maybe.
• 1:05:17
  a bad idea or something but i i find you know with climate
• 1:05:20
  change um in particular
• 1:05:22
  well look the long history of what humans have done to animals
• 1:05:26
  and then what we see
• 1:05:27
  happening with climate change with with just species getting
• 1:05:32
  wiped out on such a
• 1:05:33
  massive scale i think it's like the saddest thing because we
• 1:05:36
  can do whatever we
• 1:05:37
  SPEAKER_02: want to ourselves but it's especially sad when um there's this the
• 1:05:42
  collateral uh damage of of things that are alive and and uh
• 1:05:47
  pretty awesome so um
• 1:05:49
  you know this one i don't know this resonated with me because
• 1:05:52
  if nothing else like
• 1:05:53
  you're talking about if we get the tools to make a a seed bank
• 1:05:57
  type thing um
• 1:05:58
  whether we see a woolly mammoth or not i think that would be
• 1:06:00
  cool but i think if
• 1:06:01
  SPEAKER_02: you had the seed bank type idea where
• 1:06:05
  Maybe we become a better species at some point and we can bring
• 1:06:08
  all this stuff back.
• 1:06:09
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, we should put that in place.
• 1:06:11
  SPEAKER_02: And so,
• 1:06:12
  SPEAKER_02: um,
• 1:06:12
  SPEAKER_02: so anyway,
• 1:06:13
  it's cool to see a group that has raised this much money is
• 1:06:18
  like this energetic
• 1:06:20
  SPEAKER_02: about doing this type of science to see what's possible.
• 1:06:22
  SPEAKER_02: And, and, um, yeah, anyway, so thank you.
• 1:06:25
  SPEAKER_02: Thanks for the time.
• 1:06:26
  SPEAKER_02: And, and it's just, you know, fascinating stuff.
• 1:06:29
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, thanks for talking about it.
• 1:06:30
  SPEAKER_01: You ask great questions.
• 1:06:31
  SPEAKER_01: It was fun.
• 1:06:32
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, thanks, man.
• 1:06:33
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, we'll meet again on an adventure.
• 1:06:36
  SPEAKER_01: On an adventure at the Explorers Club.
• 1:06:45
  SPEAKER_02: This episode was hosted by me, Ashley Vance.
• 1:06:48
  SPEAKER_02: Our guest today was Ben Lamb.
• 1:06:51
  SPEAKER_02: Core Memory is produced by me and David Nicholson.
• 1:06:55
  SPEAKER_02: Our theme music is by James Mercer and John Sortland.
• 1:07:00
  SPEAKER_02: And our episodes are edited by John Sortland.