Latest / Career Clarity with Athletes: A 2ndwind Podcast with Ryan Gonsalves / 198: Dr Misia Gervis - “Football Is What You Do. It’s Not Who You Are”

Transcript

198: Dr Misia Gervis - “Football Is What You Do. It’s Not Who You Are” · Career Clarity with Athletes: A 2ndwind Podcast with Ryan Gonsalves

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_00: when you look at parent-child relationships where they the kids are belittled, they're humiliated, they're shouted at, they're isolated, they're ignored, all of these things, that is trauma for the child, right?
• 0:14
  SPEAKER_00: And so my research was trying to go, well, hey, does this happen in sport?
• 0:18
  SPEAKER_00: And of course it does.
• 0:19
  SPEAKER_00: And it happens in space.
• 0:22
  SPEAKER_00: And what happens is that the coaches were previous athletes.
• 0:27
  SPEAKER_00: So they coach the way they were coached.
• 0:30
  SPEAKER_00: And so sometimes it's so insular and they don't listen to voices outside of their sport because it's like, well, what do you know?
• 0:38
  SPEAKER_00: You're not a footballer, you're not of this, you're not of that.
• 0:41
  SPEAKER_00: And so in a sense this becomes a kind of intergenerational problem.
• 0:45
  SPEAKER_00: And we now understand better.
• 0:48
  SPEAKER_00: Well I mean as I said it was it was over 20 years ago I went, hello, excuse me.
• 0:53
  SPEAKER_00: We need to pay attention to this.
• 0:55
  SPEAKER_00: It's taken a while, but we're getting there slowly this idea that if you treat people like this, this is inherently damaging.
• 1:04
  SPEAKER_00: Because if parents treat kids like that, we call it child abuse.
• 1:12
  SPEAKER_02: Who are you beyond the game?
• 1:14
  SPEAKER_02: I'm Ryan Gonzalez.
• 1:16
  SPEAKER_02: I became a professional footballer at 16 and eventually had to answer that myself.
• 1:21
  SPEAKER_02: This is Career Cloud with Athletes from Techwind Academy.
• 1:25
  SPEAKER_02: A show about career transition to the length and lives of elite athletes.
• 1:31
  SPEAKER_02: 15 I'm sitting down with athletes competing athletes years out and the sport psychology coaches and practical guys.
• 1:41
  SPEAKER_02: We get into the identity and the practical work of building what comes next athletes hit it earlier than most people but what they learn works for anybody.
• 1:55
  SPEAKER_02: Each episode a story and where it goes from there.
• 1:58
  SPEAKER_02: Let's be inspired by the stories of others.
• 2:04
  SPEAKER_02: Misha, thank you for joining me on the Second Win Academy podcast today.
• 2:09
  SPEAKER_01: You're welcome it's lovely to see you.
• 2:11
  SPEAKER_02: Likewise and I am definitely looking forward to the conversation mainly because it failed last time but um also because I know then for me it was quite interesting having someone like yourself on the show because you bring in a different perspective.
• 2:27
  SPEAKER_02: You bring in the perspective of um I guess a a sports psychologist um looking at some of the I guess a a different perspective on the challenges that athletes certainly face as they come through transition.
• 2:40
  SPEAKER_02: So I look forward to delving into that with you a little bit more.
• 2:43
  SPEAKER_02: And what I would say is please excuse any silly questions but um as you will see I'm literally going to be learning as we talk so I will just uh I will just go for it.
• 2:54
  SPEAKER_01: Um now yourself enjoy the process it'll be it'll be interesting whatever happens it will be interesting.
• 3:02
  SPEAKER_02: It will thank you thank you I've I've got the permission I am definitely going to follow that now um well look we're gonna we're gonna start with what for me might seem like a very simple and open question would that is what is sports psychology?
• 3:17
  SPEAKER_00: Yes that that seemingly innocuous simple question which of course is huge and I would say having been a sports psychologist for many many years now um how we understand sports psychology has changed drastically over the years in its simplest terms I would say sports psychology grew from the place of understanding that performance is not simply what your body does that we have to engage mind you don't leave your mind on the white line as you cross over that would be so easy right um unfortunately you take it with you and often what happens is that um our mind trips us up and sends confusing messages to the body and sends the alert alarm watch out be careful or sends uncertainty or sends fear can send or sends you're great you're fabulous all of those things.
• 4:21
  SPEAKER_00: So the mind is always involved in in our sporting performance and I guess originally that wasn't properly understood and so therefore there was no understanding about when you were coaching so listen I I was a coach for a while a long time and in the kind of coaching circles it wasn't like oh well we have to think about how we work with the mind as well as the body it was like train the body train the body train the body more more training of body body train right that way excellence lies I think now we understand that actually work with mind and body and that is where excellence lies and if we can kind of coalesce the two then actually we will be in better shape.
• 5:06
  SPEAKER_00: So sports psychology long answer to a simple question right but sports psychology grew from trying to understand these things better and try to support athletes and it's kind of expanded to include things now about understanding athlete wellbeing understanding more complex things like the uh sometimes the environments that we set up in sport are inherently problematic and understanding how hard it is sometimes to navigate that world particularly elite sport particularly when you're under scrutiny from you know media and social media don't get me started um that cessp that exists to damage people as far as I can see I'm not sitting on the fence on that one at all but there you go.
• 5:57
  SPEAKER_02: Straight in there.
• 5:58
  SPEAKER_00: Well someone's got to right yeah but I think that those things now we we we understand that the athlete needs to have a voice the athlete needs to have have a better relationship with themselves and need support and also they don't exist in the vacuum.
• 6:14
  SPEAKER_00: You know it's not like they are athlete and they are not I don't know brother partner do you know what I mean?
• 6:22
  SPEAKER_00: It's like i it's not you don't have this one dimensional existence but I think sometimes in for athletes that kind of is imposed upon them and they learn those lessons very young and that becomes a problem obviously when they leave.
• 6:40
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah it it it does and come to that you've you've mentioned a few bits that were already fascinating for me especially around the environment and what's imp imposed perhaps on the on the individual.
• 6:54
  SPEAKER_02: Talk to me about that because I I've been I've been seeing a lot recently for me in terms of how the environment sort of shapes some of their behaviours and some of and it it sort of gives them the norms on well this is what you're supposed to do.
• 7:10
  SPEAKER_02: So as an athlete you should be focusing on your physical health and your physical performance and focus and anything psychology perhaps is also focused on performance and less then about that holistic side that you brought in brother sister all those different roles so when you talk about environment and the impact that has on on the athlete especially elite athletes can you just share a bit more about that perspective so environments for elite athletes can be really problematic.
• 7:46
  SPEAKER_00: So my PhD a long time ago now was on emotional abuse of athletes by their coaches.
• 7:54
  SPEAKER_00: And I wrote a paper 20 odd years ago and it's still the same in a lot of places.
• 8:01
  SPEAKER_00: So what we understand what I was trying to look at was to try and look at understanding coach athlete relationships through a different lens.
• 8:11
  SPEAKER_00: And when you look at parent-child relationships where they the kids are belittled they're humiliated they're shouted at they're isolated they're ignored all of these things that is trauma for the child right and so my research was trying to go well hey does this happen in sport and of course it does and it happens in space and what happens is that the coaches were previous athletes so they coached the way they were coached and so sometimes it's so insular and they don't listen to voices outside of their sport because it's like well what do you know you're not a footballer you're not of this you're not of that and um and so in a sense this becomes a kind of intergenerational problem and we now understand better well I mean as I said it was it was over 20 years ago I went hello excuse me we need to pay attention to this um so it's taken a while but we're getting there slowly um this idea that if you treat people like this this is inherently damaging because if parents treat kids like that we call it child abuse.
• 9:24
  SPEAKER_00: So I call it abuse.
• 9:26
  SPEAKER_02: And it must have been a a very divisive use I don't know if divisive is actually the word use of that word of abuse in this context must have riled a lot of people must have pushed a lot of people to well not want to listen not like what you were saying.
• 9:43
  SPEAKER_00: Quite possibly um you know a and I stand i in a sense that's what sometimes research does right research is there to uncover things to find the evidence to to look for these things.
• 9:57
  SPEAKER_00: I was involved in a in a project with uh which was about is emotional abuse in um masquerading as mental toughness in coaches so you go and you ask coaches do you think mental toughness is important and they go yes yes yes it's really important it's really this and then you go okay brilliant how do you instill that in your athletes what kind of things do you do?
• 10:24
  SPEAKER_00: How do you develop it?
• 10:25
  SPEAKER_00: And they tell you the things that they do and then you look at the things that they do and you cross-reference it with a with emotional abuse and it's the same.
• 10:35
  SPEAKER_00: So you go hmm this is a problem because coaches who think that the way to make people tougher is to belittle them.
• 10:44
  SPEAKER_00: The way to make people tougher is to humiliate them the way to make people tougher is to shout at them make them feel small.
• 10:51
  SPEAKER_00: Yes that'll make them tough and if you can't survive it well you're out so it's not that they're inherently doing it to damage absolutely not I would say that often they're a product of the same system so we just go rinse repeat rinse repeat right and it's like this is normal so this is fine and also and here's the real caveat this is what is successful because hey I won X number of medals so great.
• 11:19
  SPEAKER_00: And then the coaches who are able to produce winning athletes um a lot of the times that they just replicate those methods and so it kind of goes on from there.
• 11:29
  SPEAKER_02: Now it's probably a good a good time just for me to really say because you are one of the one of the guiding lights founding lights in terms of sports psychology I I'll say hopefully I'm not stating it too large but globally um with with your roles through Olympics but also through other sports.
• 11:49
  SPEAKER_02: So can you just to give some context about your history and some of that path the types of clubs the types of associations that you've been involved in over the let's say 20 something years.
• 12:03
  SPEAKER_00: Yes I am I am ancient I will own it it's okay we'll call that we'll call that pioneer shall we?
• 12:10
  SPEAKER_00: Pioneer there we go pioneer I can roll with that and yes it's like you know so many years ago the British Olympic Association decided it needed a psychology advisory group.
• 12:21
  SPEAKER_00: And there were eight of us and I and I was one of them and you know so it's like oh gosh there were only eight people in the UK doing this probably probably there were not very many.
• 12:32
  SPEAKER_00: You couldn't do a master's degree in it there was no accreditation process there was no professionalization of it.
• 12:40
  SPEAKER_00: If you compare that to now where there are professional programs there are master's degrees because I wrote one of the first master's degrees in sports psychology because it didn't exist.
• 12:51
  SPEAKER_00: So when I was wanting to do sports psychology I couldn't study at postgrad in the UK I had to go to America so these things now have changed drastically and which is a good thing because now we understand that you need people who who are properly supervised, who understand what they're doing who call themselves psychologists and have appropriate training to actually be able to deliver and understand you know the psychological domain and not just kind of do you know some sort of superficial tinkering around the edges.
• 13:24
  SPEAKER_00: So the profession has changed hugely and it hasn't been easy.
• 13:30
  SPEAKER_00: It has been a long road and I I remember one instance when I was delivering some stuff on sports psychology primarily for um youth coaches and there were me and 80 football coaches they were all men by the way and and me and uh someone stood up at the back and said I don't know who the F you are and what are you what are you going to teach me about football?
• 13:56
  SPEAKER_00: Like okay great I've got three days with these people so um fabulous let's take it from there and you know and I said oh okay this is gonna be fun but basically I said okay that's an interesting perspective why don't you just wait until the end of these three days and then come back to me and see if you have the same viewpoint and we can discuss it.
• 14:20
  SPEAKER_00: Credit to him at the end he did put his hand up and go yeah okay so I got that wrong but that was what I was you know pushing up against.
• 14:28
  SPEAKER_02: So it what do you think was the instigator to the Olympic British Olympic Committee wanting that advisory group to come together?
• 14:37
  SPEAKER_00: I think because they were realizing that you know maybe other countries were starting to use sports psychologists and you know sports psychology was starting to emerge in other places and so maybe they didn't want to be left behind.
• 14:49
  SPEAKER_00: And actually you know to date our sports uh the professionalized training of our sports psychologists is up there in the best in the world.
• 14:58
  SPEAKER_00: You know it's it's really outstanding now.
• 15:01
  SPEAKER_02: And and going perhaps just using that your example of that gentleman who um gentleman I thought I'd be polite I thought I'd put it across him yeah very good very good yes yes um but the thought that him standing up and saying that I mean how do you respond so over those three days and I'm perhaps things have moved on from there but I'm trying to understand what you had to take him from towards in order for him to believe or at least even there admit he was he was wrong.
• 15:35
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah I had to you know a lot of the that particular program was looking at children child child development stuff understanding how kids think understanding how their brains are wired differently understanding how stuff in psychology can be helpful to them and coaches you know how that if they change their behavior towards the kids maybe they'll get better better results from them how to how to work effectively I guess in different kinds of coaching environments and also to understand what happens on the pitch psychologically it's like listen wake up and smell the coffee you know it's not that these players suddenly you know they they have no knowledge of how to you know do a I don't know a cross with their left foot their body knows how to do it what's stopping them is mmm unfortunately it's between these ears so you have to kind of connect with their experiences and go ha have you lived that have you been in a situation where you know you played a game and you you just everything went wrong and you couldn't control anything and it's like yeah and it's like well okay so was that a technical problem physical problem no well then hello we're talking psychological here so you have to you know you have to find the ability to come to them with their lived experiences.
• 16:59
  SPEAKER_00: I'm not gonna preach to you because that's just stupid right um but I'm gonna try and help you maybe think about things that you've you've done and how maybe if you put a psychological lens on that or even some psychological knowledge on that how that helps you become a better coach because you go, oh I get it.
• 17:21
  SPEAKER_00: So you kind of want to create those aha penny drop moments and then people will understand the you know the the value of it.
• 17:31
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 17:31
  SPEAKER_02: Even I'm listening now and I'm thinking that's a that's a really good a good way of thinking about it because I I I come a lot we speak about the this this fallacy of confidence this you know it's behaviour it's understanding the emotions coming through and the more we learn about that the the the you know the better the individual can become but I suppose it it is really simple when you think in sport that we put all that effort into training and especially in a I guess a team sport where you can repeat a kick a lot of times but it doesn't mean the game's over so it's not like running a hundred meters.
• 18:08
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah it's more than just the physical side of it.
• 18:10
  SPEAKER_02: So you have to look a bit different.
• 18:12
  SPEAKER_00: Completely yeah completely yeah and and and it's also uh understanding how how as humans we work together you know and giving time to that so I'll share an example with a with a team that I work with and we were in a final um we were at Wembley actually and the prior to this we'd be doing a lot of understanding that our nervous systems are connected and understanding that if I'm oh like this I'm just gonna share it with you right and how can we anchor ourselves how can we create that kind of power of connection but also of being of of calmness so you know the kind of classic example is you know if you imagine a herd of I don't know antelope and one one antelope goes lion right all of the herd goes lion and and and again it's like and then they and then they leg it right because it's like that's the response it's a survival response right so that we share those kind of alert alarm fear responses.
• 19:12
  SPEAKER_00: But sometimes they're not so helpful.
• 19:14
  SPEAKER_00: You know you kind of walk into a dressing room and you've got someone in the space who is just leaking anxiety everyone is getting is catching it everyone is sharing it.
• 19:25
  SPEAKER_00: So we talked about how we connect how we anchor how we manage those moments and um there was a moment in a game where the opposition scored and the team I was working with they came together one of them led it and I saw that they just anchored they just but they they were they were connected with each other because generally what happens is that you see when the opposition scores everyone scatters to the full winds and so actually we we're not using the power of connection to help each other we're just going well I'm dealing with it like this and I'm not looking at you and you're which is like oh but what happens if we can come together after failure not just success that's easy right that's easy we're all good there and so they did and and this moment was so powerful for me and they and they scored literally five minutes after they'd done that and for me that was like I was you know after the we didn't actually win the game but that moment for for me was really precious and I said and I said to them after I said what moment do you think I was so proud of you they all went yeah we know Misha it's that one I was like yes it was great um but you know it's that level of understanding as well that can be really really powerful you know how do we how you know that kind of emotional contagion if you like yeah if I'm terrified I'm sh I'm sharing it with you I'm not careful.
• 20:56
  SPEAKER_02: And do you think that needs the coach?
• 20:59
  SPEAKER_02: Does it need the players the players need to buy into it as much as the the the coaching or the supporting staff as well to for something like that to to have such an impact.
• 21:09
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah of course but it's like I I think on many levels we know it because we feel it you know we we we we feel it yeah so I mean there was another situation with another team that I was with and there was a a member of staff who was sports scientists but their energy was so and I said to the manager we we we need to get them out of the dressing room.
• 21:33
  SPEAKER_00: Do not let the don't have them in the dressing room because they are not helping.
• 21:37
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 21:38
  SPEAKER_00: Because they are just they're just dumping their anxiety and all the people that they interact with.
• 21:43
  SPEAKER_00: You know, listen some coaches they do the same right by the way they also share their uncertainty.
• 21:49
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah I mean that does it's true and I I can't help but think today I was not in a sporting environment I was in a business environment and I kind of got the sense of the same thing.
• 21:59
  SPEAKER_02: We were You know, I'm taking people to a workshop, it's they're talking, but someone was extremely nervous about what we were going through simply because they felt um as I debriefed with them part way through to try and understand what was going on, they felt they were at risk, that their role and things were at risk.
• 22:17
  SPEAKER_02: So they had this uh heightened anxiety as, oh my gosh, the reason why we're doing this work is because we're about to lose our our jobs.
• 22:25
  SPEAKER_02: And yeah, it was they were fearful.
• 22:27
  SPEAKER_02: Yes, yeah, that's right.
• 22:28
  SPEAKER_02: They were fearful, and it started to I don't know, just agitate other people about, oh, why are you asking that?
• 22:33
  SPEAKER_02: Why are we working these types of things out?
• 22:35
  SPEAKER_02: And it was simply just to break down their process and try and help them do something better.
• 22:40
  SPEAKER_02: But there was uh fear that came through her, and I haven't yeah, I I didn't I didn't piece that together about what I was perhaps feeling versus what you've just described.
• 22:54
  SPEAKER_00: You might see something differently now.
• 22:55
  SPEAKER_02: Yes, yeah, I know.
• 22:56
  SPEAKER_02: Now I'm looking back, I'm like, oh my goodness me, what uh but no no that anyway, that's us going off on a tangent.
• 23:02
  SPEAKER_00: That's just uh again, me being selfish and uh and taking the lesson, but it but I think it's that that thing, you know, again, it's like it's how how do you use sports psychology?
• 23:12
  SPEAKER_00: Why is sports psychology helpful?
• 23:14
  SPEAKER_00: Well, you know, it's helpful for people to understand these things about about us as as people and and understand, you know, we play best when we're in that calm space.
• 23:27
  SPEAKER_00: And um it was interesting, I was listening to some of the athletes that the European Championships have just been on, and uh there was a woman who won gold, and she was sort of saying, Yeah, I was talking to myself and I was saying, Yeah, I just need to be calm.
• 23:40
  SPEAKER_00: It's like I just need to kind of find this space of calmness.
• 23:44
  SPEAKER_00: Because actually that's when the body just is able to flow, able to do the things.
• 23:51
  SPEAKER_00: And if you're in sports where the environment's changing, if we come with kind of heightened, if we're in a threat state, if we're in that anxiety, then we have perceptual narrowing that walks alongside it.
• 24:02
  SPEAKER_00: Oh tell me.
• 24:03
  SPEAKER_02: So you can imagine perception what did you just say?
• 24:06
  SPEAKER_00: Perceptual narrowing.
• 24:08
  SPEAKER_00: So it's kind of like this.
• 24:09
  SPEAKER_00: If I'm on a football pitch, right?
• 24:11
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm really like this, and I'm I'm only seeing what's really in front of me.
• 24:17
  SPEAKER_00: Whereas what I need to see is to step away and go, oh, okay, he's free over there, or I can make this run here, there's space there.
• 24:25
  SPEAKER_00: But if I'm really stuck with this perceptual narrowing, I'm not gonna see that.
• 24:30
  SPEAKER_00: I'm not gonna see that because my mind is just kind of in that it and it's that kind of survival instinct, which is like when we're in threat, we do this.
• 24:40
  SPEAKER_00: It's fine if you're a sprinter and you don't have to look at anything else, right?
• 24:43
  SPEAKER_00: Me sprint, one lane, bang, fine, no problem.
• 24:47
  SPEAKER_00: Not great if you're an 800-meter runner who's got to go, oh, hang on, I need awareness of what's happening behind me, or I need to track this, or I'm a rugby player or a netball player.
• 24:56
  SPEAKER_00: Do you know what I mean?
• 24:57
  SPEAKER_00: So um, for those sports where you need to make decisions based on changing environments, you need to actually be able to go to scan, to see, to understand, and to move out perceptual narrowing.
• 25:11
  SPEAKER_00: So, you know, those things again are useful for coaches to understand and also maybe to recognize when when the athletes that they work with might be fearful, yeah, might be in that threat state.
• 25:26
  SPEAKER_02: And recognize that and recognize then the impact, especially in a team environment where it might then permeate across the rest of the the rest of the group as well.
• 25:35
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and of and often you'll have players who'll go, who get furious with another one going, I was free, why don't you part, you know, what uh and it and it's like didn't you see me?
• 25:44
  SPEAKER_00: And the answer is, yeah, no, I didn't, actually.
• 25:48
  SPEAKER_00: Because I'm like this.
• 25:49
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, yeah, very, very true.
• 25:51
  SPEAKER_02: Maybe I'll believe them next time they say that now.
• 25:54
  SPEAKER_02: Through on goal, they should have passed that to me.
• 25:57
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly.
• 26:00
  SPEAKER_01: But even though they're not doing it on purpose.
• 26:02
  SPEAKER_02: Well well, that's one of the things, and uh you know, again as a a bit of an aside, when as I coached my boys or as I coached them when they were younger, and you will have parents um often screaming from the sidelines, you know, telling them where to go to play and things, and and it's it's funny, I guess for the young boys are recognized now they they don't have that sort of vision yet at 10.
• 26:26
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 26:27
  SPEAKER_02: It's like the Yeah, yeah, they can't see it.
• 26:29
  SPEAKER_02: They they you know, the children, they they um they don't have that sort of vision.
• 26:34
  SPEAKER_02: But as adults, sometimes we don't recognise that.
• 26:36
  SPEAKER_02: So you I guess you know what you're talking there isn't perspective for all of them.
• 26:40
  SPEAKER_00: Well, that kind of comes full circle to what I was trying to do with these coaches, you know.
• 26:45
  SPEAKER_00: I was talking about child development and mind development.
• 26:48
  SPEAKER_00: So for example, I talk to coaches about when they give feedback.
• 26:52
  SPEAKER_00: So um, if you if you call someone's name as they're about to strike the ball, let's say football, right, they're gonna be distracted because they're gonna go name and they will they will look towards it.
• 27:07
  SPEAKER_00: Because we are hardwired to do that.
• 27:09
  SPEAKER_00: And then they might mess up what's happening at their feet, and then the kid gets blamed, but it's your fault as the coach, because your intervention was poorly timed.
• 27:18
  SPEAKER_00: Just saying.
• 27:19
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, that's gonna be hard to accept.
• 27:21
  SPEAKER_02: I I can think of several coach several loud coaches who would uh find it hard to accept.
• 27:26
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 27:29
  SPEAKER_02: There are too many stories of bankruptcies, mental health issues, and unfortunately.
• 27:35
  SPEAKER_02: And so I think it's time for it.
• 27:37
  SPEAKER_02: Every year, we see thousands of athletes that reach a point where they need to consider their life activities.
• 27:44
  SPEAKER_02: It might be a time, injury, or they need to juggle your careers between sport and a job.
• 27:50
  SPEAKER_02: As a former team is professional footballer, I have to have my tech of sport, interfacing, strategy, innovation, and now life coach career practitioner and founder of the Second Wind Academy.
• 28:03
  SPEAKER_02: So I have to help those around me find their career technical.
• 28:08
  SPEAKER_02: Find me on Insta or through my new Facebook group, Second Wind Academy, where I'd love to know your thoughts and suggestions.
• 28:18
  SPEAKER_00: And you know, and when kids are young, it's even more powerful with their parents' voice because they are literally hardwired to respond to the voices of their parents calling their next because that that that that's what they've been taught to do.
• 28:30
  SPEAKER_00: And then sometimes if you if you if you talk to players, older players, they just go, Yeah, I j uh uh I I ignore what's happening on the side, I just switch off from it because it's not helpful.
• 28:41
  SPEAKER_00: So they just tune it out.
• 28:42
  unknown: Yeah.
• 28:44
  SPEAKER_02: So this tuning in, tuning out the environment, I'm interested in the implications of that because you know, we talk about this elite athletes, they're in that zone, they're getting, you know, having to be really focused or extremely focused in on on what they're doing from a performance perspective.
• 29:03
  SPEAKER_02: Um when it comes then to that career, that transition out, the I guess the athletic uh retirement to an extent, or at least dropping out of that elite pathway.
• 29:16
  SPEAKER_02: How do you describe or how do you frame then the implications of that high-intensity environment that they're coming through and what challenges does that or might that pose for them as they start to look outside of sport?
• 29:28
  SPEAKER_00: I think it's less about the high intensity of the environment, right?
• 29:33
  SPEAKER_00: And because there are many, many work environments that you could describe as being intense, right?
• 29:39
  SPEAKER_00: But I think it's more about how they see themselves.
• 29:43
  SPEAKER_00: If I'm not a rugby player, who am I?
• 29:46
  SPEAKER_00: If I'm not a footballer, who am I?
• 29:49
  SPEAKER_00: I have been all of my kind of um affirmation of self, people going, yeah, you're great, you're this, yes, you're the athlete, you're the footballer, you're the baller, you're the netballer, you're it's your identity, it's who you are.
• 30:06
  SPEAKER_00: And because in order to be, you know, playing at a high level, you you've had this drilled into you from when you're tiny.
• 30:15
  SPEAKER_00: Six, seven, eight, you know, I mean, it's ridiculous.
• 30:18
  SPEAKER_00: Academies, you know, getting babies through the door.
• 30:22
  SPEAKER_00: Um so um, and and and even now, you know, you get a kind of branding of 10 and 11-year-olds um in academies worrying about their social media brand.
• 30:35
  SPEAKER_00: They're 10, they're a baby.
• 30:38
  SPEAKER_00: But the other thing is is that this is all that they have been rewarded for.
• 30:43
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I did a session with parents and I said, okay, I want you to do, I want you to identify, this was in an academy, football academy.
• 30:50
  SPEAKER_00: I want you to identify your kids' strengths, and they can't be anything to do with football.
• 30:55
  SPEAKER_00: And some of them really struggled.
• 30:58
  SPEAKER_00: I'm going, well, here's the thing.
• 31:00
  SPEAKER_00: You're only acknowledging their football, but that is never gonna last forever.
• 31:07
  SPEAKER_00: What else about them do you value, do you treasure, do you think is important?
• 31:13
  SPEAKER_00: And that was an old moment.
• 31:17
  SPEAKER_00: Um but but these identities are are so firmly fixed that when you when you can't do it anymore, you you get lost.
• 31:28
  SPEAKER_00: Who am I?
• 31:29
  SPEAKER_00: I'm not sure.
• 31:30
  SPEAKER_00: And we know that most people retire from sport with the majority of their life left to live.
• 31:35
  SPEAKER_00: And we know that people struggle with retirement, you know, in their 60s and 70s.
• 31:41
  SPEAKER_00: And and it's the thing then, but you're retiring and oh yes, you're 23.
• 31:47
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, God, but who am I now?
• 31:50
  SPEAKER_00: Who am I now?
• 31:52
  SPEAKER_00: And and I think it's that that is the problem, and that's why people get lost, because they've been just rewarded for being the footballer.
• 32:00
  SPEAKER_00: So valuing the whole person i is important, and something that we're understanding now is the loss of identity um that causes the the the psychological problems, if you like.
• 32:15
  SPEAKER_02: I agree with you actually wholeheartedly that that loss of identity is so huge, and it is you know very difficult to deal with amongst the social group, you know, family groups, you know, many athletes been on here talk about shifting from being the main breadwinner to not being the main breadwinner, and that shifts the whole dynamic uh in the household.
• 32:39
  SPEAKER_02: Um, never mind what your job is, you know, that type that sort of career identity.
• 32:45
  SPEAKER_02: But to to thrive in this sporting environment, do you need to commit, or to what extent do you need to commit your identity to that sport?
• 32:57
  SPEAKER_02: And so it's a it's uh you know, collateral damage to trying to get to to be the best.
• 33:05
  SPEAKER_00: Can't it be and can't it be and and and and what do I mean by that?
• 33:10
  SPEAKER_00: I mean the the things that you value about yourself that allows you to be really focused, that allows you to um work hard, that allows you to be working really well in a team if you're in a team sport, to be able to communicate effectively, to be able to support your teammates when you're having a dodgy season.
• 33:33
  SPEAKER_00: All of these things are nothing to do with you as an athlete, they're all to do with you as a person.
• 33:39
  SPEAKER_00: So it's like it's not either or.
• 33:41
  SPEAKER_00: I think it's and.
• 33:43
  SPEAKER_00: And then I think that these qualities about you need to be celebrated.
• 33:49
  SPEAKER_00: And these are also the things that are going to allow you to be able to flourish in in different worlds because they're you and you walk with them, regardless of whether you've got, you know, football boots on or not, if you see what I mean.
• 34:06
  SPEAKER_00: But I think what happens is that athletes don't value that about themselves.
• 34:10
  SPEAKER_00: They're not kind of taught that, they're not, they're not celebrated in an explicit way.
• 34:16
  SPEAKER_00: Does that make sense?
• 34:17
  SPEAKER_00: And and so that transition then becomes they they think it's only because they're a footballer or a sprinter or a whatever, but it's not, it's it's who you are as a person.
• 34:29
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, and interesting when you said they've not learned that they've so they haven't learned sometimes, they might not have learned to celebrate to celebrate those points about themselves.
• 34:40
  SPEAKER_02: And that's a whole learning piece about recognising these other parts of your of yourself, of your your being that you've just never really perhaps allowed to look at and say, No, no, I I'm good at that.
• 34:54
  SPEAKER_02: That you know, and and it isn't kicking or it isn't just because I'm really fast.
• 34:58
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 34:59
  SPEAKER_02: Or or something like it's like.
• 35:01
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, absolutely.
• 35:02
  SPEAKER_00: There's more to me than that, right?
• 35:04
  SPEAKER_00: So I have I have qualities about me that are that are important to my family, you know.
• 35:11
  SPEAKER_00: It's like to to maybe to my children, maybe to my parents, maybe to but also the other thing about athletes is that they're really exceptionally good at working with each other and working when things are difficult.
• 35:26
  SPEAKER_00: And uh again, it's just because it happened to be on last night, I was fortunately Euros.
• 35:31
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 35:31
  SPEAKER_00: And um uh 1500 metre gold gold medalist, and she was talking about the athletes that she trained with, and she was talking about how the they got me here.
• 35:42
  SPEAKER_00: It was everyone helping, you know, athletes are really, really good at understanding that elite performance isn't something they just achieved all by themselves.
• 35:53
  SPEAKER_00: They they know it.
• 35:55
  SPEAKER_00: But then it's like but they then they and they're quick to celebrate the people that helped them, but they then haven't been able to turn around to themselves and go, actually, what is it about me that makes me able to work with other people really, really well and communicate and share stuff and support people when it's difficult?
• 36:13
  SPEAKER_00: My teammate who's got, I don't know, an ACL blowout.
• 36:16
  SPEAKER_00: Actually, yeah, it was Jasmine Sawyers who was talking about her um she's a long jumper and she she won um the silver and she's had an uh Achilles that had blown up.
• 36:27
  SPEAKER_00: So a year ago she was out with an Achilles, I mean huge injury.
• 36:30
  SPEAKER_00: And again, it's like, but what is it about you that means people want to work with you?
• 36:35
  SPEAKER_00: But so I think in terms of transition and preparing people to to move out, um we have to get them to start thinking about themselves in very, very different ways.
• 36:47
  SPEAKER_00: You know, I I often say to people, generally footballers, football is what you do, it's not who you are.
• 36:55
  SPEAKER_02: That's really hard, isn't it?
• 36:56
  SPEAKER_02: For athletes who well actually you know, it's anybody.
• 37:00
  SPEAKER_02: Anyone who is praised for one thing and does well at it, especially if it's proven, um, then they're gonna attach themselves to that as well.
• 37:10
  SPEAKER_02: So how of course So what are the steps?
• 37:13
  SPEAKER_02: How do you how does one help um in this sense?
• 37:18
  SPEAKER_02: How does one help athletes?
• 37:20
  SPEAKER_02: You know, is it environment, is it speaking with them, is it, you know, what what what are the types of things certainly in in your experience that you've seen have helped individuals have a more successful career transition?
• 37:33
  SPEAKER_00: I think there are a couple of things.
• 37:36
  SPEAKER_00: One is where coaches appreciate them for who they are as people and they talk about it and they celebrate that.
• 37:44
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and they're very open about it, you know.
• 37:47
  SPEAKER_00: Which means that they are still those people, whether they're having a good game or a bad game.
• 37:53
  SPEAKER_00: That do you know what I mean?
• 37:54
  SPEAKER_00: It's like that hasn't changed.
• 37:55
  SPEAKER_00: You're not suddenly a terrible person because you had a rubbish game on Saturday.
• 37:59
  SPEAKER_00: You are still the lovely person who supports your teammates, who is a great communicator.
• 38:05
  SPEAKER_00: That hasn't changed.
• 38:06
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so that's important.
• 38:09
  SPEAKER_00: I think in terms of transition, start doing it early.
• 38:13
  SPEAKER_00: Um and have difficult conversations about it.
• 38:17
  SPEAKER_00: I was in a club and there were three players who were all about to retire at the end of the season.
• 38:22
  SPEAKER_00: So I started it the year before with all three of them, and we're sitting down and we're having conversations about it.
• 38:29
  SPEAKER_00: What does it look like?
• 38:30
  SPEAKER_00: Who are you?
• 38:31
  SPEAKER_00: What do you bring?
• 38:32
  SPEAKER_00: Having a sense of self, all all all of those things are and and because there were three of them, they kind of helped each other out, you know, as well, which was really nice.
• 38:41
  SPEAKER_00: And and all three of them have made really good transitions, but you there's lots of evidence that says planning for it is better.
• 38:51
  SPEAKER_00: The the athletes that go think about it, they're in denial, is like it's never gonna happen.
• 38:56
  SPEAKER_00: Ah they fall off the edge of the cliff.
• 38:59
  SPEAKER_00: And and sometimes, you know, retirement is forced upon us in terms of injury, and and that can be very, very difficult.
• 39:06
  SPEAKER_00: But it's like you have to kind of have the conversation, you have to start thinking about who you are in that world, what are you gonna bring to it, what what might that look like?
• 39:16
  SPEAKER_00: What how can how can you navigate that that change and have a sense of self?
• 39:21
  SPEAKER_00: And even then it's difficult it's difficult.
• 39:23
  SPEAKER_00: One of my um one of my trainees, a guy called David Wheeler, who wrote a beautiful article for The Guardian about retirement and about the transition, and he was retiring from football, he was a pro footballer.
• 39:36
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and he wrote about it and very openly about the difficulties and how and what the challenges were.
• 39:43
  SPEAKER_00: And that was with me talking about it with him a lot.
• 39:47
  SPEAKER_00: Do you know what I mean?
• 39:48
  SPEAKER_00: So it and it is still difficult.
• 39:50
  SPEAKER_00: And I think again, it's like sometimes the families of people don't quite understand this sense of loss, and maybe people can't articulate it in meaningful ways, and then that causes fractions in the family, and and we know that a lot of you know splits happen, particularly when athletes, you know, change, um, because maybe they're not able to talk about that.
• 40:12
  SPEAKER_00: And so, you know, families go, What's the matter with you?
• 40:14
  SPEAKER_00: What's what was your problem?
• 40:16
  SPEAKER_00: And they don't get the fact that they are just grieving that loss of who they are and and what they stood for, and it's and it's really difficult.
• 40:25
  SPEAKER_00: So that's the other bit of education is like to have compassion for this, to understand and to go, yeah, it might be hard.
• 40:33
  SPEAKER_00: Stuff's gonna show up and to kind of normalize it and also to find you find ways for having having those conversations.
• 40:41
  SPEAKER_00: But it begins further back with if you've got families who just don't think the most you know, I only love you because you're a great footballer, that's also helpful.
• 40:54
  SPEAKER_00: So, you know, that can start early as well.
• 40:57
  SPEAKER_02: And so you've I mean that's interesting, right, for me, because you you talk about the the coach.
• 41:05
  SPEAKER_02: So the coach valuing and I I I guess just about all sports there's a coach.
• 41:11
  SPEAKER_02: Some there's that support team that's there somewhere, right?
• 41:14
  SPEAKER_02: Um yeah, but there's the coach who values them more than just their athletic attributes or things related just to the sport.
• 41:20
  SPEAKER_02: You've got the person themselves who should start sooner, you know, whatever time scale it is, start sooner, right?
• 41:29
  SPEAKER_02: But sort of begin with the end in mind.
• 41:32
  SPEAKER_02: But you have also mentioned I guess at least two others there.
• 41:37
  SPEAKER_02: One is either I suppose the team the teammates and you know, we mentioned before about borrow borrowing uh one another's energy or you know, getting that sense of of yeah, that that sense of shared emotion sort of helps to calm.
• 41:54
  SPEAKER_02: And you mentioned that group of of three players there coming together.
• 41:58
  SPEAKER_02: And then you've mentioned this education of family so that they can understand the grief that somebody close to them is is is going through.
• 42:09
  SPEAKER_02: I mean those two additional bits that that brings back in this this group or this community feel as well, right?
• 42:15
  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely, because it's not it's not ever going to be a journey you go on alone.
• 42:19
  SPEAKER_00: There are gonna be people around you who are on it, and and if they understand it, and I guess you know, my job in a sense is to encourage the athletes to be able to have these conversations, you know, and and to be able to share, you know, because people pe people also think, oh well, nobody's died, you know, loss isn't about you know death, but actually, yeah, a bit of me is not not there in the same way that it has been for years, and I could rely upon it for years.
• 42:52
  SPEAKER_00: So people who haven't been athletes, they don't get it.
• 42:55
  SPEAKER_00: They don't understand it.
• 42:57
  SPEAKER_00: And how it's huge.
• 43:00
  SPEAKER_00: It's really and it's really difficult.
• 43:02
  SPEAKER_00: So we have to kind of normalize it and validate those feelings and also encourage, you know, partners to be able to understand it and and expect it to be a bit bumpy.
• 43:16
  SPEAKER_02: Yes.
• 43:17
  SPEAKER_00: Because it's gonna be a bit bumpy and that's right.
• 43:20
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 43:20
  SPEAKER_00: And that and that's all right.
• 43:21
  SPEAKER_02: That's it.
• 43:22
  SPEAKER_02: That's gonna be the quote I use.
• 43:23
  SPEAKER_02: It's going to be a bit bumpy.
• 43:25
  SPEAKER_02: And that's it.
• 43:26
  SPEAKER_02: Because it it just it breaks it down, it makes it very simple.
• 43:30
  SPEAKER_02: You'll get there, but you're gonna probably be bouncing along for but a period of time.
• 43:34
  SPEAKER_02: A period of time.
• 43:35
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 43:36
  SPEAKER_03: What do you Absolutely?
• 43:38
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, but when when you think of certainly when you started, where we are today, there's been a huge shift.
• 43:45
  SPEAKER_02: We've spoken about this this initial resistance from the gentleman uh early on due to it now being accepted, or at least adopted.
• 43:54
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, it's it it's accepted.
• 43:56
  SPEAKER_02: Sports I call it, it is a part of high performance.
• 43:59
  SPEAKER_02: It is Sort of recognising recognizing that part of things for us.
• 44:03
  SPEAKER_02: What then is what's next?
• 44:05
  SPEAKER_02: What what do you see as this next I'll say frontier to make it grandiose?
• 44:11
  SPEAKER_00: Well, we ain't there yet, my friend.
• 44:13
  SPEAKER_00: We are not there yet.
• 44:15
  SPEAKER_00: So I would look at some of, you know, some of sports psychologists that I know, particularly in football, whereby if you're in an academy, you have to kind of have a sports psychology program.
• 44:28
  SPEAKER_00: But in many situations, there will be one sports psychologist looking after 200 players.
• 44:33
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, you're having a giraffe.
• 44:35
  SPEAKER_00: It's like, how can you do that work, right?
• 44:38
  SPEAKER_00: So um it's it's not I speak about the fact that the quality of my work is dependent upon the quality of the relationships I can create.
• 44:50
  SPEAKER_00: I cannot create meaningful relationships with 200 people.
• 44:54
  SPEAKER_00: I'm gonna be a bit rubbish.
• 44:56
  SPEAKER_00: So but then we we get blamed for not being able to do the job, whatever the job is.
• 45:04
  SPEAKER_00: So I think that there's a lack of understanding about that.
• 45:07
  SPEAKER_00: I think the other thing is there's professional issues for us as practitioners because sports, you know, the way I practice sports psychology might be very different from the way other people practice sports psychology.
• 45:19
  SPEAKER_00: And so there isn't one way to do it.
• 45:22
  SPEAKER_00: And I think sometimes the people who employ us, they're not really sure what they think they want us to do.
• 45:30
  SPEAKER_00: And so maybe there's a mismatch between what I can offer and what you think you want.
• 45:36
  SPEAKER_00: I still think in some instances it's tick box.
• 45:39
  SPEAKER_00: I still think that in some instances, as professionals, we have to be we have to be better trained, we have to be better able to deliver appropriate care and and understanding.
• 45:53
  SPEAKER_00: And, you know, we're very different from other psychological professions because at the end of the day, someone is asking me whether I've made a difference to performance.
• 46:04
  SPEAKER_00: Whereas if you're a psychotherapist, no one's asking you that question.
• 46:08
  SPEAKER_00: You know, but but if things, you know, I I literally remember this when I was um when I was with England, someone sort of said to me, so if we lose, I know who to blame then.
• 46:18
  SPEAKER_00: It's like oh right, okay, then fine, I'm I'm now the scapegoat.
• 46:22
  SPEAKER_00: But do you see what I mean?
• 46:22
  SPEAKER_00: It's like there's an expectation that somehow I'm responsible for the performance in the way that maybe other people are.
• 46:30
  SPEAKER_00: It it's tricky because the work that I do is often invisible.
• 46:35
  SPEAKER_00: So I kind of talk about it as being like the glue that holds people together, but you don't see it.
• 46:42
  SPEAKER_00: So then people go, Well, what are you doing?
• 46:45
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I mean, uh, she's in the gym, what's she doing?
• 46:48
  SPEAKER_00: Hmm.
• 46:49
  SPEAKER_00: I'm just observing people's behaviour.
• 46:51
  SPEAKER_00: I'm just coming into the gym on a Monday morning after the game or Saturday and going, Yeah, what am I feeling?
• 46:59
  SPEAKER_00: Who's talking?
• 47:01
  SPEAKER_00: Who is how did this impact over there?
• 47:04
  SPEAKER_00: What's showing up?
• 47:05
  SPEAKER_00: I'm working really hard doing that.
• 47:08
  SPEAKER_00: Um so but I think again, so I think that there's responsibilities from us as a profession and professionals, and I think there's there's work to be done on the part of sport, and you know, a lot of my experiences are in are in football.
• 47:23
  SPEAKER_00: So obviously I have a kind of bias towards understanding that.
• 47:26
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe it's different in in other places.
• 47:29
  SPEAKER_00: So I think it's again asking asking realistic demands of us as practitioners.
• 47:35
  SPEAKER_00: And and the other thing that's hard for practitioners is sometimes we're the only psychologist in the room.
• 47:41
  SPEAKER_00: By that I mean there'll be many coaches, there'll be many physios, there'll be many video analysts and one psychologist.
• 47:47
  SPEAKER_00: So who the hell am I talking to?
• 47:50
  SPEAKER_00: Who's helping me?
• 47:51
  SPEAKER_00: You know, where coaches will chat, everyone else will chat, and I'm going, I'm Billy No Mate.
• 47:57
  SPEAKER_00: So it's like, oh, oh, no one to talk to.
• 47:59
  SPEAKER_00: So that is a really hard, that's a really hard path to walk to tread as a practitioner as well.
• 48:05
  unknown: Yeah.
• 48:05
  SPEAKER_00: So figuring out how we kind of get supported as practitioners through supervision, through kind of um through communities that we're we're part of is also really, really important, I think.
• 48:17
  SPEAKER_02: And this thank you for that, because it's interesting to hear that your perspective, which is comes from both yourselves as practitioners in how do you how do you better yourselves, how do you get the right well, not standardized, but give a make it really good, easy for training.
• 48:36
  SPEAKER_02: Just getting everybody to that to that level playing field is just as important as the acceptance and being invited perhaps by coaches to be in in the room.
• 48:48
  SPEAKER_02: Um, like you say, if you've been questioned why are you in the gym, but it's been invited to be in those places so you can establish those relationships.
• 48:55
  SPEAKER_02: That's that's what's going to help make a big a big difference, a big change.
• 49:00
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 49:01
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, absolutely.
• 49:03
  SPEAKER_00: And you know, I ha I have been in situations where I have called out things, um, called out challenges where I thought mental health was being compromised by some of the practices, and the response was to sack me.
• 49:15
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, okay.
• 49:16
  SPEAKER_00: This wasn't that long ago.
• 49:18
  SPEAKER_02: I was gonna say, tell me that was 20 odd years ago, and then I'm like, okay.
• 49:22
  SPEAKER_00: No, literally a couple of years ago.
• 49:24
  SPEAKER_00: So, you know, again, it's if you're you how can I maintain my my professional integrity, raise issues where I think that people are vulnerable, where I think that practices are harming people, and then the response is to to get rid of me.
• 49:40
  SPEAKER_00: It's like uh uh okay, great, yeah.
• 49:43
  SPEAKER_00: So we've still a long way to go.
• 49:45
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, absolutely.
• 49:47
  SPEAKER_02: Um listen, Misha, thank you for joining me.
• 49:50
  SPEAKER_02: Simple as that.
• 49:51
  SPEAKER_02: I just want to I appreciate you sharing a bit of the history, bringing your perspective, and certainly taking me taking us all through some key phases and key points of sports psychology in action as well.
• 50:04
  SPEAKER_02: And there are gonna be people who are watching, listening, who are gonna want to follow your story, maybe even get in touch.
• 50:11
  SPEAKER_02: Where's the best place to find you and to get in touch?
• 50:14
  SPEAKER_00: I am on LinkedIn, so you can find me at LinkedIn.
• 50:18
  SPEAKER_00: That's probably the easiest way to find me.
• 50:21
  SPEAKER_02: Wonderful.
• 50:22
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, listen, and we will put links and get your details in the show notes.
• 50:27
  SPEAKER_02: So I want to say thank you very much for joining and sharing your story today.
• 50:32
  SPEAKER_00: You're welcome.
• 50:33
  SPEAKER_00: My pleasure.
• 50:38
  SPEAKER_02: Thanks for listening to this week's episode.
• 50:41
  SPEAKER_02: Reshaping a career is a team sport.
• 50:43
  SPEAKER_02: Don't do it alone.
• 50:45
  SPEAKER_02: If you want help working out your next step, it's all at secondwindadvisory.com forward slash academy.
• 50:51
  SPEAKER_02: Book a conversation with me there, and the link is also in the show notes.
• 50:55
  SPEAKER_02: Now, a couple more things.
• 51:03
  SPEAKER_02: I'm Ryan Gun Salvis, take it easy, and I'll see you next time.
• 51:07
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, before I do go, I want to drop a short thanks to Claire at Betty Book Design, Nancy at Sabic Podcast Solutions, and Therese at copying content by load.
• 51:18
  SPEAKER_02: Without them, this show would never have got together.
• 51:20
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you.