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Insight- An Introduction To China With Carl Zha · UK Column Radio

0:18
Speaker 1: Hello, and welcome to UK column. Today. I am joined
0:21
Speaker 1: by Carl Za. We think it's time do we start
0:24
Speaker 1: having an adult conversation about China. And this is something
0:27
Speaker 1: that perhaps many people have not received. They've been listening
0:31
Speaker 1: to the words of Donald Trump and they've been listening
0:33
Speaker 1: to the words of Nigel Farage. I thought it was
0:36
Speaker 1: time that we should speak to someone who has lived there,
0:38
Speaker 1: who knows the country and understands a little bit of
0:41
Speaker 1: hard works. So let me welcome you to the program.
0:45
Speaker 2: Carl, it is you, Mike thanking me.
0:47
Speaker 1: It's a pleasure. Now. Just give us a little bit
0:50
Speaker 1: of background, because your family is Chinese and grew up
0:54
Speaker 1: under the mast regime.
0:56
Speaker 2: Yes, actually myself I was born in nineteen seventy six,
1:01
Speaker 2: one month after Mau died, So I'm literally the first
1:04
Speaker 2: generation of Chinese who grew up post Mao and post
1:08
Speaker 2: Cultural Revolution, and I lived through China the entire decade eighties,
1:13
Speaker 2: and then my dad was the first generation of Chinese
1:16
Speaker 2: exchange students were sent to the United States after normalization
1:20
Speaker 2: of relationship between US and China. My dad came to
1:23
Speaker 2: US in nineteen eighty five. I followed in nineteen ninety
1:29
Speaker 2: and this is the result of the Chairmen Square protests.
1:34
Speaker 2: So my dad decided not to return to China but
1:37
Speaker 2: stayed in the US. So he brought me to US
1:40
Speaker 2: in nineteen ninety and I grew up in US, attended
1:43
Speaker 2: the junior high, high school, college, spent almost thirty years
1:48
Speaker 2: in US. But I kept the connection with China because
1:51
Speaker 2: the rest of my extended family is still in China
1:54
Speaker 2: and then go back their visit regularly. I still have
1:58
Speaker 2: friends and family there, and you know, really, China is
2:03
Speaker 2: what I'm passionate about. I try to learn everything i
2:06
Speaker 2: can culture, politics, history.
2:09
Speaker 1: It must have been quite a culture shock to move
2:13
Speaker 1: from China to the United States. I mean, did you
2:15
Speaker 1: go to the US already speaking English or is that
2:17
Speaker 1: something that you had to learn as soon as you arrived.
2:20
Speaker 2: So we when I was growing up in China nineteen eighties,
2:24
Speaker 2: we don't start learning English until we're junior high seventh grade,
2:28
Speaker 2: so I have about one year of English instruction, but
2:32
Speaker 2: those are real textbook English. We learned stuff like this
2:35
Speaker 2: is a chair, Hello, mister Smith. So when I got
2:39
Speaker 2: lost at the Holloluno Airport, I had almost zero language
2:45
Speaker 2: skills to communicate to the airport security that I need
2:50
Speaker 2: to find my airport terminal. But I badger him long
2:53
Speaker 2: enough that he was able to find a Chinese speaking
2:56
Speaker 2: to a guy who guided me to the terminal. So
2:59
Speaker 2: it is a big anguish shops. I have to learn
3:01
Speaker 2: the language from scratch. I felt like, I told my dad.
3:05
Speaker 2: I felt like I made literate and but it took
3:08
Speaker 2: a couple of years, some heart adjustment. But you know,
3:11
Speaker 2: young kids very flexible. They came and blend in. I
3:16
Speaker 2: simulate rather quickly.
3:18
Speaker 1: Tell us about your early life in China. Then that
3:21
Speaker 1: was coming out of the most situation. And how much
3:27
Speaker 1: did that country change in that first years of your life.
3:32
Speaker 2: When I was born in China and when I was
3:35
Speaker 2: growing up, China was desperately poor, emerging out of cultural revolution.
3:39
Speaker 2: You know, personally, I have not experienced it because I
3:42
Speaker 2: was born after Mouth's death, but I grew up with
3:45
Speaker 2: stories told to me by my grandparents, my parents, my
3:49
Speaker 2: neighbors about the hardship they suffer under cultural revolution. And
3:54
Speaker 2: when I when I started school, you know, at that time,
4:01
Speaker 2: China is one of the poorest country in the world.
4:05
Speaker 2: I mean, it's the worst country in its own neighborhood
4:08
Speaker 2: of Asia. There was everybody in nineteen eighties China wanted
4:12
Speaker 2: to get out any by any means possible. They wanted
4:15
Speaker 2: to leave the country. But that have changed since then.
4:21
Speaker 2: I mean I even as I was living in China,
4:24
Speaker 2: I noticed things are getting better. Roads are getting built,
4:28
Speaker 2: more public infrastructures are getting improved. My own school got
4:34
Speaker 2: a facelift. And when I came back to China after
4:39
Speaker 2: stay in US, every time I visit China is like
4:43
Speaker 2: I'm visiting a new country, just because the whole physical
4:47
Speaker 2: landscape of the city has changed so much. They are.
4:50
Speaker 2: When I left China my hometown of sme Gen, the
4:55
Speaker 2: tallest building is a three story tall monument in the
4:58
Speaker 2: downtown area. When when I returned around two thousand, there's
5:04
Speaker 2: a whole new city kind of grow around it. All
5:07
Speaker 2: the new skyscrapers, light rail, everything was built after nineteen
5:13
Speaker 2: ninety after it left. Now, Tonchin is one of the
5:17
Speaker 2: viral city on social media. You know, people have picture
5:21
Speaker 2: posting picture of ton Jin saying it's a cyberpunk city
5:24
Speaker 2: of China. It's you got to completely face live in
5:28
Speaker 2: the last forty years. To me, there has been tremendous
5:31
Speaker 2: change in China.
5:33
Speaker 1: But in terms of people's relationship with the state and
5:37
Speaker 1: with the government, how has that changed, Because you know,
5:42
Speaker 1: we are constantly bombarded with the idea that the Chinese
5:46
Speaker 1: living in China is like living in a totalitarian coming
5:49
Speaker 1: a straight gaim and they're subject to social credit and
5:53
Speaker 1: it's really horrendous. You've got to behave yourself where you're
5:56
Speaker 1: treated very badly, and so on. What is it actually like?
5:59
Speaker 2: So, first of all, I had a happy childhood growing
6:02
Speaker 2: up in China nineteen eighties. You know, China back then
6:05
Speaker 2: was poor, but it was safe, and you know, we
6:08
Speaker 2: had I grew up in a community. My extended family
6:12
Speaker 2: took care of me while my parents were away in
6:15
Speaker 2: the United States, and so I only have happy memories.
6:19
Speaker 2: But when I came to US, I was very hungry
6:22
Speaker 2: for the news of my homeland. So I will scour
6:25
Speaker 2: the page of New York Times, Washington Post, read anything
6:29
Speaker 2: I could find on the reporting about China. But just
6:33
Speaker 2: China I read in their papers. I find it totally
6:37
Speaker 2: unrecognizable from the China I left behind. It as if
6:40
Speaker 2: it's a bizarro world. Because all the year after year
6:44
Speaker 2: they will say the human rights in China has deteriorated.
6:49
Speaker 2: The condition inside in China has deteriorated. And I'm thinking
6:53
Speaker 2: deteriorated compared to what because I was born when Cultural
6:57
Speaker 2: Revolution ended, and my experience in China since the end
7:01
Speaker 2: of the Cultural Revolution is that the life has been
7:04
Speaker 2: getting better and better. People income has been has risen
7:10
Speaker 2: year after year. And when they say the you know,
7:15
Speaker 2: just the conditions in China we're getting worse, I'm really confused,
7:21
Speaker 2: because getting worse compared to what I mean, it's worse
7:24
Speaker 2: than my years. That's ridiculous. I remember, just to give
7:27
Speaker 2: you an idea, how big, how how big a change
7:32
Speaker 2: you know, for little kids growing up in nineteen eighties China.
7:35
Speaker 2: When I was in the first grade, I would talk
7:39
Speaker 2: to our friends because at that time China was experiencing
7:42
Speaker 2: so called opening and reform under Danshall Pain and among
7:48
Speaker 2: our first gray friends were okay, so when we grew up,
7:52
Speaker 2: you know, the the society must have opened so much
7:56
Speaker 2: at that time, maybe g DA will be acceptable, like
8:00
Speaker 2: would you kiss a girl you know in public? At
8:04
Speaker 2: that time, we think that was like so far removed
8:07
Speaker 2: reality back in nineteen eighty two. But I mean the people,
8:12
Speaker 2: young people in China nowadays, they wouldn't think twice about
8:16
Speaker 2: making out in public. I mean, this is just to
8:18
Speaker 2: give you a kind of personal anecdotal story how far
8:22
Speaker 2: China has removed a wham. A famous UK band visited
8:27
Speaker 2: China in nineteen eighty five, one of the first Western
8:30
Speaker 2: band performing in China at that time. The audience were
8:35
Speaker 2: very excited, so they got up, got off their chair
8:39
Speaker 2: and start dancing. But the Chinese security at that time,
8:43
Speaker 2: they were not used to the Western style concert. They
8:46
Speaker 2: told people to sit back down and stop clapping and
8:51
Speaker 2: said quiet, watch this rock concert. And a lot of
8:55
Speaker 2: our spirits were upset. Even protests broke out after that.
8:59
Speaker 2: I mean, this is kind of a change. This is
9:02
Speaker 2: kind of the China that was in nineteen eighties. What
9:06
Speaker 2: was growing up now? You know, now you have people
9:10
Speaker 2: like Taylor Swift go to China giving concert for so
9:14
Speaker 2: China has come a long way and it's China today
9:17
Speaker 2: would be almost unrecognizable in China in nineteen eighties. And
9:22
Speaker 2: for my experience and the experience of most Chinese people
9:26
Speaker 2: grow up after nineteen seventy nineteen eighties, their experience has
9:31
Speaker 2: been that their lives are getting better and better. If
9:34
Speaker 2: you according to public opinion survey across the world, majority
9:38
Speaker 2: of the Chinese population are very optimistic that in the
9:43
Speaker 2: next five to ten years their future will become better
9:45
Speaker 2: and better.
9:46
Speaker 1: Let's take into that a little bit more, because you know,
9:50
Speaker 1: if we look at the West, at the UK, or
9:52
Speaker 1: at the US, the EU, we consider ourselves to be
9:58
Speaker 1: part of a democratic society. We elect our leaders, and
10:03
Speaker 1: we're told that that gives us all kinds of freedoms.
10:07
Speaker 1: Perhaps the reality is somewhat different, a little bit if
10:09
Speaker 1: you look a little bit under the surface. For example,
10:12
Speaker 1: you know, while we're criticizing China for social credit policies
10:16
Speaker 1: and so on, we have pretty much the same policy
10:18
Speaker 1: in the West. It's called your credit score. And if
10:20
Speaker 1: you've got a good credit score, you get a mortgage,
10:23
Speaker 1: and you get access to the loans, and you can
10:25
Speaker 1: buy a car and these kinds of things. And if
10:27
Speaker 1: you don't, then then you don't. So and increasingly, and
10:30
Speaker 1: particularly since the exposure of the Behavioral Insights Team with
10:36
Speaker 1: following the COVID lockdowns in the UK, we're constantly under
10:39
Speaker 1: this propagandizement and this psychological manipulation of behavioral change, behavioral economics,
10:47
Speaker 1: and so on. So it's it's done covertly in the West,
10:50
Speaker 1: and we believe that we're free, but we're told that
10:53
Speaker 1: it's overt in China, and it's it's there in the open,
10:57
Speaker 1: and people are oppressed constantly, and I just want to
11:00
Speaker 1: get a feeling for what the truth of that actually is.
11:03
Speaker 2: Okay, So, first of all, social credit is an urban
11:06
Speaker 2: myth that does not exist in China. Recently, a lot
11:10
Speaker 2: of Americans because the incoming TikTok band, they are fleeing
11:14
Speaker 2: into a Chinese social media app called Redino. So that
11:19
Speaker 2: brought a lot of Americans into very close contact online
11:23
Speaker 2: at least with three hundred million Chinese users of this
11:26
Speaker 2: social media app. And so one of the most frequently
11:30
Speaker 2: asked questions by the Americans to their newly met online
11:35
Speaker 2: Chinese friend is tell us about how the social credit
11:38
Speaker 2: system works in China, and many Chinese were completely bewildered
11:43
Speaker 2: because they did not understand what the social credit credit
11:47
Speaker 2: score is because it's not a thing in China. A
11:51
Speaker 2: lot of times when the West reports about China, it's
11:54
Speaker 2: actually projection. It projects a lot of fears people have
11:59
Speaker 2: about their own sot society, especially government surveillance control onto China,
12:04
Speaker 2: you know, the Great unknown, because many people in the West,
12:08
Speaker 2: they didn't know any better about China. They may never
12:11
Speaker 2: travel to China, live there, and they would just take
12:14
Speaker 2: for granted what their mainstream media hold them. Even even
12:18
Speaker 2: though they knew the mainstream media almost lie to them
12:22
Speaker 2: about everything else, they will still take as uh, you know,
12:26
Speaker 2: as God given truth when mainstream media tell them about China.
12:31
Speaker 2: This is just because people don't have the context to
12:34
Speaker 2: to to properly judge. Think. Now, there are some issues
12:39
Speaker 2: in China. For example, cameras. It's true, cameras are everywhere,
12:45
Speaker 2: just like in the city of London. Cameras are everywhere.
12:50
Speaker 2: But the Chinese people I have come into contact with
12:54
Speaker 2: h they have a bit of a different attitude toward
12:58
Speaker 2: technology and and and and and surveillance, you know, because
13:03
Speaker 2: when I'd ask them about it, they say, oh, that's
13:06
Speaker 2: for physical safety. I mean, the most complete playing I
13:09
Speaker 2: heard about the cameras is about traffic tickets. You know.
13:12
Speaker 2: My cousin she complained that she now gets automatically deducted
13:17
Speaker 2: points when her car gets caught, you know, violating in
13:23
Speaker 2: traffic violation by the camera, so that that's the most
13:27
Speaker 2: negative thing. I heard about cameras while I was in.
13:29
Speaker 1: China, whose social credit is not a thing, then.
13:31
Speaker 2: Social credit is not a thing.
13:33
Speaker 1: One of the stories that we are told in the
13:36
Speaker 1: West in the Hustle Lords China report, or that they
13:41
Speaker 1: sorry the Intelligence Committee China Report, and various other reports
13:44
Speaker 1: from Hussein Lords and other organizations in the UK and
13:47
Speaker 1: in the United States, is that we have needed to
13:51
Speaker 1: ban Huawei equipment from our five gen networks because we
13:56
Speaker 1: are using our five G networks for dual use civilian
14:00
Speaker 1: plus some military use as well, and therefore having any
14:05
Speaker 1: Chinese equipment on that network would be a major security
14:09
Speaker 1: risk because the Chinese are hoovering up all the data
14:12
Speaker 1: and sending it back to Beijing. And you were talking
14:15
Speaker 1: about projection there with respect to social credit, and this,
14:19
Speaker 1: to me is another great example of projection, because if
14:22
Speaker 1: there is any surveillance going on, then we need to
14:25
Speaker 1: look at Jupiter, Juniper Networks, and Cisco and Systems and
14:30
Speaker 1: all these kinds of companies who are directly funded by
14:35
Speaker 1: or have been directly funded by Western intelligence agencies or
14:39
Speaker 1: Unit eighty two hundred in Israel. So to project that
14:44
Speaker 1: criticism on the China seems hypocritical to me, but nonetheless
14:49
Speaker 1: should we be concerned that using Chinese built equipment is
14:55
Speaker 1: a risk to our personal security, our personal privacy.
15:00
Speaker 2: This is a serious issue because if they if they're
15:03
Speaker 2: gonna use use, they're gonna have Huawei in Germany and UK.
15:07
Speaker 2: How is the US Intelligence Service is gonna eve drop
15:10
Speaker 2: on Angelo Merco? Right? I mean, this is a serious issue.
15:14
Speaker 2: They're gonna lose, They're gonna go blind. Uh. You know,
15:18
Speaker 2: how is god United States gonna approach China and demanding
15:23
Speaker 2: to have a backdoor into Huawei networks. The thing I present,
15:28
Speaker 2: the way I've tried to present it, uh to my
15:31
Speaker 2: Western friend is let's suppose let's suppose China do collect
15:36
Speaker 2: your data. What are they gonna do with it? What?
15:39
Speaker 2: They don't have jurisdiction over you. The Chinese government do
15:43
Speaker 2: not have jurisdiction over you unless you are a Chinese citizen. Uh.
15:47
Speaker 2: And and you know this, we can argue, you know
15:50
Speaker 2: what China policy is inside China? The Chinese government policy
15:55
Speaker 2: mostly affect Chinese people living inside China. If you are is,
16:00
Speaker 2: if you're German, if you're American, you should be more
16:04
Speaker 2: worried about your own government who do have jurisdiction over you,
16:08
Speaker 2: and who do have an extensive surveillance system. I mean,
16:12
Speaker 2: in US, we got that fun uh Snowden. We know
16:17
Speaker 2: about the prison system, We know that n Essay is
16:20
Speaker 2: reading our emails. So I for me, I don't care
16:25
Speaker 2: if Chinese government read my emails because the Chinese government
16:29
Speaker 2: there's nothing they can do to me. I'm not a
16:31
Speaker 2: Chinese citizen anymore. So you know, it's fine when I'm
16:36
Speaker 2: on the internet nowadays, I'm just assumed my data is
16:40
Speaker 2: wide open. You know, people are already pilfering my data,
16:44
Speaker 2: selling to the package it and sell to different companies.
16:47
Speaker 2: So I have nothing to hide. But I would be
16:50
Speaker 2: more worried if the US government is keeping paths on
16:54
Speaker 2: me because they do have jurisdiction over me me as
16:58
Speaker 2: a US citizen.
16:59
Speaker 1: I think, Carla, I think that one of the major
17:03
Speaker 1: concerns at the moment is hoovering up data for large
17:08
Speaker 1: language models and what's being described as AI and I
17:11
Speaker 1: think the main concern here is that Chinese companies who
17:15
Speaker 1: are getting into this technological space will be able to
17:18
Speaker 1: compete if they hoover up data from the West. I
17:23
Speaker 1: don't have any view on that. I think the whole
17:26
Speaker 1: large language model AI thing is really not functioning, and
17:32
Speaker 1: it isn't ever going to function the way people expect
17:34
Speaker 1: it to. I think it's a very dangerous direction that
17:36
Speaker 1: we are heading in, and I think you're absolutely right.
17:38
Speaker 1: We need to be considering what our governments are doing
17:40
Speaker 1: and not worrying so much about what the Chinese government
17:43
Speaker 1: is doing in this respect.
17:45
Speaker 2: Oh, since you brought up AI and large language models,
17:50
Speaker 2: this is actually the reason that United States government sided
17:54
Speaker 2: for leveling high tech ship sanction against China. The whole
17:58
Speaker 2: rationale is we got slow down China's tech development, especially
18:02
Speaker 2: in the field of AI, so the United States will
18:06
Speaker 2: have on leg up, will have a lead in creating
18:10
Speaker 2: agis the artificial general intelligence. You know that there's a
18:14
Speaker 2: level of AI that will reach parity with a human
18:17
Speaker 2: mind or even surpass it. The goal is that the
18:20
Speaker 2: US will have to develop the terminator and sky net
18:23
Speaker 2: first and the Chinese will be screwed. But as you
18:27
Speaker 2: already mentioned, I think the AGI is not just around
18:30
Speaker 2: the corner. You know, we're nowhere close to have to
18:33
Speaker 2: create a terminator yet, and this is this is another
18:37
Speaker 2: reason the US ship sanction against China is failing right
18:41
Speaker 2: now because China is finding a workaround. They are coming,
18:45
Speaker 2: They're still advancing in AI. Even the former Google CEO
18:49
Speaker 2: Eric Schmidt admitted in November he said, well, despite all
18:54
Speaker 2: of them to slow down Chinese AI development, they're only
18:57
Speaker 2: a few months behind.
18:58
Speaker 1: One of the other critics has been leveled against China
19:02
Speaker 1: in recent years has been that they have systematically stolen
19:06
Speaker 1: intellectual property from Western companies. And I wanted to get
19:10
Speaker 1: your thoughts on this because my perspective on it is, well,
19:13
Speaker 1: what did you expect We have systematically exported our productive
19:18
Speaker 1: capacity to China because we wanted to take advantage of
19:21
Speaker 1: cheap libor, and so in order for them to produce
19:25
Speaker 1: what we needed them to produce, we had to give
19:28
Speaker 1: them the details of what they're producing. Did we really
19:31
Speaker 1: expect that nobody would learn from that and take advantage
19:35
Speaker 1: of that situation? I think it's it's it's an unfair
19:38
Speaker 1: criticism because we were We went in there with the
19:42
Speaker 1: intention to exploit cheap libor, and what did we think
19:47
Speaker 1: people were going to do?
19:49
Speaker 2: Is in industrial espionage going on? I'm sure you know this.
19:53
Speaker 2: Every country carry out economic industrial espinage since the beginning
19:58
Speaker 2: of the time, and the United States during its rise
20:02
Speaker 2: as an industrial power, has has uh steal plenty of
20:06
Speaker 2: technology for from Great Britain and an American historian opening
20:12
Speaker 2: admit it. What China does is they do it more
20:16
Speaker 2: in an open fash. I mean a lot of people
20:19
Speaker 2: call it stealing. When a Western company goes to China
20:23
Speaker 2: to do business, Chinese governments set them down on a
20:26
Speaker 2: table and says, okay, we we will allow you to
20:30
Speaker 2: come here and set a factory, open up business, sell
20:33
Speaker 2: to the Chinese consumers with conditions. The conditions is that
20:39
Speaker 2: you gotta do tech transfer and you got to train
20:42
Speaker 2: your local Chinese workforce. So this is all about the table.
20:46
Speaker 2: It's in the contract, it's in the term of agreement.
20:50
Speaker 2: It's a price of admission into the Chinese market. If
20:53
Speaker 2: they the price of doing business in China is you
20:56
Speaker 2: have to do tech transfer. I mean the Chinese government
21:00
Speaker 2: is not holding a gun to their head say you
21:03
Speaker 2: must offshore, take your factory from Britain, or take your
21:07
Speaker 2: factory from the United States and move them to China. No, no, no,
21:10
Speaker 2: This is the Wall Street type and the City of
21:12
Speaker 2: London type. We decided, you know what, we will get
21:16
Speaker 2: better margins by by shifting labor intensive production to East
21:23
Speaker 2: Asia where the labor is a lot cheaper. And they
21:25
Speaker 2: have found that before even China even opened up. They
21:29
Speaker 2: did that since nineteen seventies. They moved the factories to
21:33
Speaker 2: first Japan and then Korea and Taiwan, and later when
21:36
Speaker 2: China opened up, they moved those factories to China because
21:39
Speaker 2: the business is always chasing, you know, the highest returns
21:42
Speaker 2: and the lowest labor costs. And this is how China
21:47
Speaker 2: succeeded because China actually had an industrial policy of trying
21:52
Speaker 2: to catch up technologically. You know, why would any nations
21:56
Speaker 2: country could do that? You know, like it should it
21:58
Speaker 2: should be every interest of every government to provide prosperity
22:03
Speaker 2: for their citizens. I mean, China is just doing their
22:06
Speaker 2: best for their own for their own people.
22:09
Speaker 1: Since you mentioned Taiwan, let's move on to the geopolitical situation.
22:14
Speaker 1: And my first question really is what is China's outlook
22:19
Speaker 1: on the international system and does is China thinking in
22:25
Speaker 1: terms of geopolitics or are they trying to do something different?
22:28
Speaker 2: Well, I mean, China exists in the international system, so
22:32
Speaker 2: they have they have to play by the rules. But
22:36
Speaker 2: China has always asserted sovereignty over Taiwan. This did not
22:41
Speaker 2: begin in nineteen forty nine, I mean China. Taiwan has
22:45
Speaker 2: been part of China since the Ching dynasty, and it
22:49
Speaker 2: was taken from China in eighteen ninety eight as a
22:53
Speaker 2: result of eighteen ninety five as a result of First
22:57
Speaker 2: Sino Japanese War. It was returned to China as a
23:01
Speaker 2: result of World War Two. After nineteen forty five, by
23:06
Speaker 2: what happened was the civil war broke out in China
23:09
Speaker 2: and the Nationalist Garment, which had been ruling China, was
23:14
Speaker 2: defeated by the Communists, so that fled to the island
23:16
Speaker 2: of Taiwan, where they you know, their successor still still
23:22
Speaker 2: there today. So this is really the legacy of unresolved
23:27
Speaker 2: Chinese civil war. Now there has been relative peace in
23:33
Speaker 2: the Taiwan straight for the last forty years, I mean
23:37
Speaker 2: as long as I mean since I was born, since
23:40
Speaker 2: I was born. It actually got better because during the
23:43
Speaker 2: Taiwan was born, the whole coastline facing Taiwan was basically
23:48
Speaker 2: still under Taiwan itself was still under martial law. And
23:53
Speaker 2: today people could travel back and forth there are plenty
23:58
Speaker 2: of Taiwanese students, business men who live, work and study
24:03
Speaker 2: in mainland China, and their mainland tourists who go visit
24:07
Speaker 2: Taiwan well before COVID, Before COVID, the linkage was cut
24:11
Speaker 2: during the COVID time. And and the thing about there's
24:16
Speaker 2: a lot of talks in the Western media about, you know,
24:19
Speaker 2: impending Chinese takeover of Taiwan, or according to Pentagon, you know,
24:25
Speaker 2: twenty twenty seven will be the day where China launched
24:28
Speaker 2: the invasion and forcefully take Taiwan. What I like to
24:33
Speaker 2: point out is China just rolled out a whole of
24:37
Speaker 2: grand investment along its coastal cities facing Taiwan straight. You
24:45
Speaker 2: don't do that. You don't pile your money into a
24:48
Speaker 2: potential war zone. If China is investing to build up
24:51
Speaker 2: its cities facing Taiwan straight, that means China is confident
24:55
Speaker 2: that there's no not going to be worn in any
24:58
Speaker 2: immediate future. So I at least from a Chinese perspective,
25:03
Speaker 2: it looks like China is not ready to go to
25:06
Speaker 2: ward over Taiwan in twenty twenty seven. And the fact
25:10
Speaker 2: that the China's relative strength, Chinese relative military strength versus
25:16
Speaker 2: the United States is increasing year over year. They China
25:22
Speaker 2: just launched a prototype of their six generation aircraft, and
25:26
Speaker 2: you know you will take maybe seven years to have
25:31
Speaker 2: turn those aircraft from prototype into into to service. So
25:36
Speaker 2: so why why not wait a few years? Why do
25:39
Speaker 2: they have to do it in twenty twenty seven when
25:41
Speaker 2: they can wait until twenty thirty two when they will
25:44
Speaker 2: have the sixth generation military aircraft ready? And why not
25:49
Speaker 2: wait even a few more years when China even be
25:52
Speaker 2: more powerful. Time is on China's side. China is not
25:54
Speaker 2: in a very force the Taiwan issue.
25:57
Speaker 1: Do you think the Chinese government is recognizing the threat
26:01
Speaker 1: from the West or do they look at the West
26:03
Speaker 1: and say, well, actually, the Western the entire Western system
26:06
Speaker 1: is in a state of collapse, and we only need
26:08
Speaker 1: to wit there as well, because you know, as we're
26:11
Speaker 1: building up ours, their's is systematically collapsing, and so they
26:16
Speaker 1: don't see the West as a threat at all.
26:18
Speaker 2: Well, I'm not on a personal speaking term with Chigimpin,
26:22
Speaker 2: so I don't know exactly how he thinks. However, from
26:26
Speaker 2: the talks on Chinese Chinese media, Chinese social media, it
26:32
Speaker 2: seems like there's a quiet confidence among the Chinese lead
26:36
Speaker 2: I'm talking on both political leaders and economic captains of
26:42
Speaker 2: industry technologies about China's future future development, and they see
26:48
Speaker 2: China is going to is going to grow stronger and stronger,
26:52
Speaker 2: and China will be outcome, be able to all compete,
26:56
Speaker 2: will be able to out compete United States with its
27:00
Speaker 2: economically because the you know, China, we have have seen
27:07
Speaker 2: many predictions about you know, seven twenty thirty, Chinese economy
27:12
Speaker 2: were overtaking United States as the world's largest economy. And
27:15
Speaker 2: some say according to World Bank, according to PPP, the
27:20
Speaker 2: purchase power parity calculation, Chinese economy is already greater than
27:26
Speaker 2: in the United States. There's a they're not in a China
27:32
Speaker 2: is not fundamentally trying to challenge United States for the
27:37
Speaker 2: World Hedge AMOUNGT status. This is kind of a perspective
27:41
Speaker 2: on Pentagon. The Pentagon perspective that US primacy must be
27:46
Speaker 2: maintained at all costs, full spectrum dominants. This is this
27:50
Speaker 2: is written. This is open policy of the United States.
27:55
Speaker 2: The full spectrum dominance must be maintained at all costs.
28:00
Speaker 2: China is just looking to secure the area in its
28:04
Speaker 2: neighborhood You know, China doesn't need to build eleven aircraft
28:08
Speaker 2: carrier floating around the world to act as a as
28:12
Speaker 2: a world least. China is more interested to safeguard it's
28:18
Speaker 2: it's vital sea lanes sailing in South China Sea or
28:22
Speaker 2: East China seed and so so this China have a
28:25
Speaker 2: very different strategic goals than the United States. This is
28:30
Speaker 2: why Pentagon is increasingly realizing that you know, China is
28:35
Speaker 2: trying to build local force superiority in the area around
28:39
Speaker 2: China rather than trying to project power halfway around the
28:44
Speaker 2: world the way United States does.
28:46
Speaker 1: Okay, but China is has launched the Belton Road initiative
28:51
Speaker 1: a number of years ago, and it is building, uh,
28:55
Speaker 1: it's building ports, is building, it's it's moving into two
28:58
Speaker 1: countries and offer infrastructure. They're not doing that for free.
29:03
Speaker 2: No, of course not. I mean, China is looking to
29:06
Speaker 2: do the best for China, and the idea of belden
29:10
Speaker 2: Row initiative is actually very simple. You know, many people
29:14
Speaker 2: know China maintains a large trade surplus in this trade
29:18
Speaker 2: with the West, particular United States. Just this year, China
29:22
Speaker 2: just a register unprecedented one trillion dollars trade surfplus. That
29:28
Speaker 2: is a lot of dollars USD Now, what can China
29:32
Speaker 2: do with those dollars? United States is not is preventing
29:38
Speaker 2: China from cashing those IOUs because when China take those
29:42
Speaker 2: dollars and try to buy high tech chips, so the
29:45
Speaker 2: United States buy, the Administration says, no, China cannot buy
29:49
Speaker 2: import high tech chips. Now, China used to spend more
29:53
Speaker 2: money importing chip than importing oil. China spend about three
29:57
Speaker 2: hundred twenty five billion dollars importing oil, whereas China used
30:02
Speaker 2: to spend four hundred and fifty billion dollars importing chips.
30:06
Speaker 2: Like the United States is now saying, now we can't
30:10
Speaker 2: sell you those chips because you are going to use
30:12
Speaker 2: it or deal use items. You're going to use it
30:15
Speaker 2: to develop AI that could model your nuclear weapons. And
30:20
Speaker 2: so so China is sitting on all these month dollars
30:24
Speaker 2: that they can't spend. You know, the largest US export
30:27
Speaker 2: to China right now is in agricultural commodities horn, soil, bean,
30:33
Speaker 2: and wheat. You know, US in terms of US China trade,
30:37
Speaker 2: US acts like as if it's a serve WORL country,
30:41
Speaker 2: you know, exporting rock commodities to China and receiving manufacturing
30:45
Speaker 2: goods and paying in US dollars which US government can print,
30:50
Speaker 2: and but Chinese cannot spend those dollars to buy the
30:57
Speaker 2: stuff they want from the United States. So the only
30:59
Speaker 2: thing that could do before is they have to buy
31:02
Speaker 2: buy US treasuries. They parked their money into US treasury,
31:07
Speaker 2: which in terms of finance the US government, US military
31:10
Speaker 2: spending US of war around the world. But Chinese government
31:16
Speaker 2: are getting wisen up to the fact. That's why they
31:19
Speaker 2: have been steadily reducing their holding of US treasury. Like
31:22
Speaker 2: at one time, at the peak, Chinese holding of US
31:26
Speaker 2: treasury hold about one point four trillion dollars worth of
31:29
Speaker 2: US treasury now is about seven hundred billions, So China
31:33
Speaker 2: already cut its US treasury holding half. Now where do
31:36
Speaker 2: those extra dollar go? Now China find a better reterm
31:42
Speaker 2: of their investment rather than park their money in hard
31:45
Speaker 2: earned US currency in US treasury, is to invest them
31:50
Speaker 2: to build infrastructure all around the world, to build ports,
31:54
Speaker 2: build railroads, build bridges. And what does that give to China.
32:00
Speaker 2: You give China access increase the global trade connectivity. Because
32:04
Speaker 2: China is now the world's largest trading nations, far surpassing Japan,
32:09
Speaker 2: Germany or United States. Majority countries in the world has
32:13
Speaker 2: China as its largest trading partner. So ports is crucially important,
32:18
Speaker 2: Rails is crucially important, roads are crucially important. And by
32:23
Speaker 2: investing these funds abroad, China is also exporting. It's productive.
32:32
Speaker 2: It's over capacity because China has invested four trillion dollars
32:38
Speaker 2: as a result of the two thousand A financial crisis
32:42
Speaker 2: to build up its own domestic infrastructure. You know this,
32:46
Speaker 2: people already know. China has built thirty thousand kilometers of
32:52
Speaker 2: rail all the all the way across the country, many
32:55
Speaker 2: of them high speed rail. China has the world's longest
32:59
Speaker 2: system of high speed rail. But the problem is, by
33:02
Speaker 2: now China is pretty much built out. You know, they
33:05
Speaker 2: already have high speed rail connecting one end of the
33:09
Speaker 2: country to the other end of the country. There's only
33:11
Speaker 2: so many high speed rails, so many bridges, so many
33:14
Speaker 2: dams you could build inside China. But in doing so,
33:18
Speaker 2: China has built a world leading industries in construction, construction,
33:23
Speaker 2: material equipment. Now, with the Beldi and Road project, these
33:29
Speaker 2: industries can take their expertise, their knowledge, and their capital.
33:34
Speaker 2: They can go work on projects in Africa, in Southeast Asia,
33:40
Speaker 2: in Latin America, and by they they are earning all
33:45
Speaker 2: the money. So all the money that China is investing
33:48
Speaker 2: in into the Spelian Road project, many of them cycled
33:51
Speaker 2: back to China through contract handed over to the Chinese
33:55
Speaker 2: construction companies for example Chinese equipment companies, and also for
34:02
Speaker 2: building these infrastructure China also getting in return often access
34:07
Speaker 2: mining rights. In many countries they used to resources as
34:12
Speaker 2: trade to be able to to trade for for for courts,
34:17
Speaker 2: for railroad, for infrastructure. So China's this is what China
34:21
Speaker 2: caused win win. I'm sure China wins more. But again
34:26
Speaker 2: what China does is providing an alternative to the countries
34:30
Speaker 2: in Africa, South East Asian, Latin America. To I I,
34:34
Speaker 2: m F and World Bank were traditional lenders to these countries.
34:38
Speaker 2: Now these these national government have a choice. They can
34:42
Speaker 2: choose either World Bank, IMF or the Chinese loans.
34:45
Speaker 1: What you just said there is really needs to be
34:50
Speaker 1: thought about by people because we're talking about a country
34:52
Speaker 1: with a you know, over a billion people in it,
34:54
Speaker 1: and you're saying that it's more or less built on
34:56
Speaker 1: you can't build any more bridges. You can't build any
34:59
Speaker 1: more domes you got right now they are I mean,
35:01
Speaker 1: they're still building their energy infrastructure, and they're still building
35:04
Speaker 1: high speed reel and I think, actually I think it
35:07
Speaker 1: was China Daily a couple of weeks ago estimated forty
35:11
Speaker 1: five thousand kilometers of high speed reel. I mean, it's
35:14
Speaker 1: just it is actually incredible the think. I mean, we
35:17
Speaker 1: are living in a country at the moment, Carl, where
35:21
Speaker 1: we cannot drive through a city, any city in the
35:24
Speaker 1: UK without damaging our car in the potholes in the road.
35:28
Speaker 1: And we do not have the money or the interest
35:32
Speaker 1: from government to repair that or to make that. And
35:37
Speaker 1: actually what we're looking at now is a complete renewal
35:40
Speaker 1: of our roads network, our real network. Nothing is functioning properly.
35:44
Speaker 1: And there we have this country with a billion people
35:47
Speaker 1: in the scale of it is huge, and they have
35:50
Speaker 1: done this and so you know, when we look at that,
35:56
Speaker 1: we must feel a certain amount of jealousy. I think
35:58
Speaker 1: about how they have managed to pull this off.
36:00
Speaker 2: Well, I think that's natural because UK and US they're
36:05
Speaker 2: still one of the world's wealth yes nations, I mean
36:07
Speaker 2: compared to the Chinese, the GDP per capita in US
36:12
Speaker 2: and UK is still far higher. I mean, there's no
36:15
Speaker 2: reason why people of UK and US should should not
36:20
Speaker 2: demand their government to do better to provide them with infrastructure.
36:24
Speaker 2: But I mean in case of America, I speak as
36:27
Speaker 2: American because this is what I know best. In terms
36:30
Speaker 2: of US, our governments rather spend all the hundreds of
36:35
Speaker 2: billions of money to promote war around the world, the
36:38
Speaker 2: would rather give like hundreds of billions to Ukraine the
36:41
Speaker 2: finances boxy war against Russia, when the United States is
36:46
Speaker 2: facing also a series of infrastructure failures. We saw that
36:51
Speaker 2: with a result of Hurricane Halling, which hit the state
36:55
Speaker 2: of North Carolina where my parents live, and we just
36:59
Speaker 2: saw the wildfires that hitting la where I used to live.
37:03
Speaker 2: And then the US government response has been abysmal. You know,
37:09
Speaker 2: people in America also asking the question where are the funds?
37:12
Speaker 2: Why is US providing billions of dollars to Israel, to
37:17
Speaker 2: Ukraine when our schools are failing, our roads are that lapidated,
37:24
Speaker 2: our bridges are collapsing, our mountains are burned.
37:28
Speaker 1: Well, I would suggest that a part of this is
37:31
Speaker 1: the whole concept of at least our interpretation of Agenda
37:35
Speaker 1: twenty thirty and net zero and these kinds of things
37:37
Speaker 1: and money should not be being invested in roads when
37:40
Speaker 1: we want to actually get cars off the roads and
37:42
Speaker 1: so on. But which leads me on to the question
37:45
Speaker 1: of what China's attitude is towards the United Nations Sustainable
37:51
Speaker 1: development goals, to the whole net zero climate change policy,
37:56
Speaker 1: because we see the Chinese government using the term sustainable development,
38:02
Speaker 1: for example, and that they say this in public, but
38:05
Speaker 1: what they do seems to imply a different interpretation of
38:09
Speaker 1: that word of that term than perhaps we get from
38:12
Speaker 1: our own governments.
38:13
Speaker 2: So this is very interesting because what China does is
38:16
Speaker 2: actually very important for the climate change because China is
38:21
Speaker 2: now the is a factory of the world.
38:25
Speaker 3: It makes everything, and as a process of offsourcing all
38:31
Speaker 3: the manufacturing to China from United States, Europe, et cetera,
38:36
Speaker 3: we also put our emission.
38:39
Speaker 2: We're also exported our emission to China. So whatever China
38:45
Speaker 2: does will be vitally important if you know, you believe
38:50
Speaker 2: in climate change. And what China has done actually is
38:53
Speaker 2: they have done a remarkable job of building out renewable energy.
39:00
Speaker 2: I'm talking about solar and wind. China's production of solar
39:06
Speaker 2: China made solar panels cost so cheap. Now it's cost
39:12
Speaker 2: effective to build out giant wind, giant solar farms, and
39:18
Speaker 2: that this is what China is doing. Chinese paving over
39:20
Speaker 2: its desert right now with solar panels, and they're building
39:23
Speaker 2: tons of wind power as well. They're China is actually
39:27
Speaker 2: adding more UH new energy, sustainable energy UH power generation
39:36
Speaker 2: every year then the total energy generation of UK and
39:42
Speaker 2: Germany combined. This is I'm talking about on a yearly basis,
39:46
Speaker 2: and and and and people are level and criticism of
39:51
Speaker 2: China is that, yeah, China used a lot of coal,
39:53
Speaker 2: and China is still building out new coal power plants. Now.
39:57
Speaker 2: This is because when and solar power, they are not
40:01
Speaker 2: stable source of power. You know, the solar panels, it
40:06
Speaker 2: turns off at night, and when power you only function
40:09
Speaker 2: when there's when, So in order to maintain a stable
40:12
Speaker 2: electric grid, you'd always need backup power. And that's where
40:15
Speaker 2: the co power plant came from. But China is also
40:21
Speaker 2: in the process of replacing the older generation of cold plants,
40:26
Speaker 2: which caused a lot of emission. The new coal plant
40:30
Speaker 2: they're building is a lot more cleaner than you know,
40:32
Speaker 2: the cold plant they're build in the seventies and eighties,
40:35
Speaker 2: and and so people need to look at the total
40:39
Speaker 2: emission rather than how the number of coal plants have built.
40:44
Speaker 2: There's a total there's some estimate that total emission in
40:49
Speaker 2: China may have peak, and that is very important because
40:52
Speaker 2: China is building out. China is building, is manufacturing for
40:57
Speaker 2: the rest of the world. So so you know, this
40:59
Speaker 2: is what what China does is critical important and they
41:02
Speaker 2: have been. They're not just doing this for UH to
41:05
Speaker 2: say the environment whatever. China is doing this also for
41:07
Speaker 2: very strategic reason because China depends on imported oil fossil
41:13
Speaker 2: fields from South from from Africa, from the Gulf, and
41:20
Speaker 2: by switching to renewable energy, China is trying to achieve
41:25
Speaker 2: energy dependence, energy independence, and they're also trying to cut
41:30
Speaker 2: down pollution because when I went to China in two thousand,
41:34
Speaker 2: two thousand, twenty ten, the pollution in Beijing and Shanghai
41:39
Speaker 2: was horrible. You could cut through the air with a
41:41
Speaker 2: butter knife. And when I would return to Bay China
41:45
Speaker 2: in nineteen and twenty twenty two, the air was a
41:51
Speaker 2: lot more cleaner. And they were able to do that
41:53
Speaker 2: by mandating transition to electric vehicles. According to the latest
42:00
Speaker 2: all those sale numbers in China, more than fifty percent
42:02
Speaker 2: of the new car sold in China are now new
42:05
Speaker 2: energy vehicles or either electric cars or hybrids, and that
42:09
Speaker 2: has done a lot to clean up the air in
42:11
Speaker 2: the cities.
42:12
Speaker 1: Let's just come back onto the Belton Road for a second,
42:15
Speaker 1: because you were talking about the fact that you know,
42:19
Speaker 1: African countries, for example, South American countries reliant in the
42:23
Speaker 1: past on the IMF and the World Bank, and they
42:27
Speaker 1: have discovered to their cost that there is a massive
42:30
Speaker 1: cost and relying on those and the issue of debt
42:34
Speaker 1: dependence on the West has been one that Africa in
42:37
Speaker 1: particular has been fighting for decades. What has how is
42:43
Speaker 1: when China moves into one of these countries and offers
42:46
Speaker 1: a railway or offers a road, or offers a port,
42:49
Speaker 1: how's that financed and what is China's attitude towards the
42:54
Speaker 1: debt afterwards.
42:55
Speaker 2: That's a great question, because there was a Chinese debt
42:59
Speaker 2: tat in circulated online for a long time, or it
43:02
Speaker 2: was actually originated in a in a think bank in
43:06
Speaker 2: a think bank in India, was very quickly adopted by
43:10
Speaker 2: all the Western media as the gospel truth. And and
43:15
Speaker 2: first of all, China is offering loans through its state
43:19
Speaker 2: back banks, and so this is Chinese government is providing
43:25
Speaker 2: the loans. And then they have the Chinese government also
43:29
Speaker 2: of course have the funds because like I said, they
43:32
Speaker 2: build a huge surplus of US dollars through their trade
43:35
Speaker 2: surplus and the loans. When they deployed to Africa, you know,
43:40
Speaker 2: they're often a word, this contract to Chinese construction companies,
43:46
Speaker 2: Chinese construction team. So some of the dollars they spend
43:50
Speaker 2: actually circle cycle back to China. And in terms of
43:58
Speaker 2: the debt trap, you know, that trap is what IMF
44:02
Speaker 2: and World Bank do traditionally to the African countries. Now
44:06
Speaker 2: African countries they have an alternative. And and when people
44:11
Speaker 2: in the West, especially the POUND is talking about how
44:15
Speaker 2: China is that trap in the African countries, they're really
44:18
Speaker 2: dismissive of African agents. What they're really saying, these African
44:22
Speaker 2: national government have don't know what's in their best interest.
44:27
Speaker 2: They're saying the Westerners knows what's best for Africa better
44:32
Speaker 2: than those African leaders themselves. I mean, I think that's insulting,
44:36
Speaker 2: that's insulting people's intelligence.
44:38
Speaker 1: Uh.
44:40
Speaker 2: The there are about the Chinese loans. They are always
44:45
Speaker 2: open for negotiations. So for example, in Kendya, China has
44:50
Speaker 2: constructed uh the standard Gage railway in Kendya, and there
44:55
Speaker 2: have been talks to for China to continue build out
44:59
Speaker 2: the second face, but there were some disagreement over the
45:03
Speaker 2: long term, so they the project was postponed. I mean
45:07
Speaker 2: there are the government, the African government, Latin American governments,
45:12
Speaker 2: also US Asian government. They can go back to China
45:15
Speaker 2: and try to renegotiate the terms. Uh. This the former
45:20
Speaker 2: Greek finance minister uh Yannis Uh have pointed this out
45:25
Speaker 2: that during the Chinese purchase of the of the Poor
45:29
Speaker 2: in Greece that when he became the finance minister, he
45:35
Speaker 2: didn't like the terms, so he went to the h
45:38
Speaker 2: went to the Chinese and asked for better terms and
45:41
Speaker 2: the the Chinese were they were amenable. They they sat
45:47
Speaker 2: down with him until they hammer out a new agreement. Uh,
45:51
Speaker 2: where whereas Yani is find finding more agreeable. So so
45:54
Speaker 2: again this China is not selling its aircraft carrier Battle
45:58
Speaker 2: Group to Act Africa to force the African government to
46:02
Speaker 2: sign any deal on their threat of violence. These are
46:06
Speaker 2: bilateral agreements inter you know inter it's a consensual bilateral
46:14
Speaker 2: agreement from both sides. You know, African leaders they do
46:17
Speaker 2: have a choice. They have a choice to either go
46:19
Speaker 2: to IMF, World Bank or China.
46:22
Speaker 1: Maybe I'm wrong about this, but my understanding is that
46:24
Speaker 1: actually China has forgiven quite a lot of debt over
46:26
Speaker 1: the years.
46:27
Speaker 2: Well they did. This is uh, this is recently when
46:30
Speaker 2: several African nations came to China and say there they
46:34
Speaker 2: will have trouble to repay back the loans. That's a
46:37
Speaker 2: result of dropping commodity prices. A lot of these African economies,
46:41
Speaker 2: they they are depend on commodity exports, especially to China.
46:47
Speaker 2: And it's it's actually to China's advantage to forget these
46:52
Speaker 2: loans to maintain the good wills of this African government,
46:55
Speaker 2: because this allows the continue operation of China Chinese companies
47:01
Speaker 2: on the ground, like China is heavily involved right now
47:04
Speaker 2: in the mining sectors and as well as construction. So
47:09
Speaker 2: so there this is a you know, it's just a
47:13
Speaker 2: good business practice.
47:14
Speaker 1: We're pretty much out of time for today, and this
47:17
Speaker 1: has been a fascinating conversation. We got much more to
47:20
Speaker 1: talk about I'm sure, but we can't really leave with
47:24
Speaker 1: us commenting on the COVID times and what happened in
47:30
Speaker 1: China during COVID.
47:31
Speaker 2: Right, So there's a lot of criticism about how China
47:35
Speaker 2: initially and COVID when the outbreak started high, it's hard
47:41
Speaker 2: to say that, you know, China had this. Uh. Does
47:48
Speaker 2: the criticism originate particularly about a social media post of
47:54
Speaker 2: one one doctor who have worn it's time my social
47:58
Speaker 2: media posts. He posted in we chat group, a chat
48:02
Speaker 2: group among his close friends, that he that people should
48:05
Speaker 2: be watch out there there's a new viral virus going on.
48:10
Speaker 2: It might be stars because he thought he was he
48:13
Speaker 2: was similar to the symptoms of the SARS epidemic back
48:16
Speaker 2: in two thousand and three. And and the One Government,
48:20
Speaker 2: you know, they because they obviously didn't want to create
48:24
Speaker 2: they didn't want to create panic. They also didn't want
48:27
Speaker 2: to uh, the responsibility of having an outbreak on their hand,
48:32
Speaker 2: so they send they sent the police to this doctor
48:39
Speaker 2: and and and just and actually made the doctor to
48:44
Speaker 2: sign an official apology for spreading humor. So this this
48:49
Speaker 2: for this, you know Chin, I think the One Government
48:52
Speaker 2: deserved all the all the criticism of how they handled
48:55
Speaker 2: this this was wrong way and by the way, the
48:59
Speaker 2: entire up echlong of the one government got fired. None
49:04
Speaker 2: of that happened in the United States. I can say
49:06
Speaker 2: that for sure nobody, no public official was fired over
49:10
Speaker 2: how to handle COVID in the United States, but the
49:14
Speaker 2: one government official for their attempt to cover up, they
49:19
Speaker 2: got fired. And but then after two thousand, after the
49:23
Speaker 2: outbreak become widely known China, Chinese government were able to
49:30
Speaker 2: quickly mobilize their resources. You know, people all saw the videos.
49:34
Speaker 2: They built hospitals, and they tried to quarantine the city
49:38
Speaker 2: of Hunt. So for I say, for the two first
49:41
Speaker 2: two years, uh first year and half of COVID, many
49:46
Speaker 2: people in China were actually living quite comfortably. They thought
49:50
Speaker 2: the government actually handle it relatively well, especially when they
49:54
Speaker 2: saw what what happened was what was happening in Europe,
49:57
Speaker 2: in UK and Australia, Canada. You but that changed when
50:03
Speaker 2: the only crown version of little Bit hit and and
50:07
Speaker 2: it was much more contagious. But the Chinese government was
50:10
Speaker 2: still trying to apply the same method they have been
50:14
Speaker 2: employed in the past. In twenty twenty so they did
50:18
Speaker 2: the Shanghai lockdown, and that was very controversial because you know,
50:24
Speaker 2: especially for the Shanghai resident who had to stay in
50:27
Speaker 2: their apartment for three months, I mean that that's hard,
50:29
Speaker 2: that's that's that's very difficult times. My for my contact
50:34
Speaker 2: in Shanghai, you know, who told me personally, they did
50:37
Speaker 2: not like that obviously, and and I think this is
50:41
Speaker 2: what led to the protests against the zero COVID policies
50:46
Speaker 2: in the end of November twenty twenty two, and that
50:52
Speaker 2: led to kind of the very the protests was spreading,
50:57
Speaker 2: but it led to a very abrupt one hundred and
51:01
Speaker 2: eighty degree policy reversal because a few weeks later, Chinese
51:06
Speaker 2: government just completely scrapped its zero COVID policy completely opened
51:12
Speaker 2: up everything. Now there is also people who criticized Chinese
51:16
Speaker 2: government for that, for not preparing the public or opening up.
51:20
Speaker 2: But overall, I think, you know, Chinese people have been
51:26
Speaker 2: through a lot of hardship in the recent history, in
51:30
Speaker 2: the in the in the twentieth century, at least in
51:34
Speaker 2: the twentieth century, so I mean compared to much harder
51:38
Speaker 2: times like like Ultra Revolution or greatly Boward, this just
51:43
Speaker 2: a blip on the radar, but it's COVID was a
51:46
Speaker 2: very controversial time in China. There are many who did
51:50
Speaker 2: not agree or many was handling this, and many who
51:53
Speaker 2: are glad they're putting this period behind them, and and
51:57
Speaker 2: so yeah, so I mean like, but Chinese people they're
52:02
Speaker 2: very resilient. I mean, they're very good at compartmentalizing things
52:06
Speaker 2: and and focusing on the future, moving.
52:09
Speaker 1: Forward where their vaccine mandit no, So.
52:12
Speaker 2: That this is the one area where China is different
52:16
Speaker 2: from the West, where where the West, where the government
52:20
Speaker 2: was very adamant uh pushing the m are in a
52:25
Speaker 2: vaccines on this population, China did not enforce a vaccine
52:30
Speaker 2: Mandy because you know, because the government thought that you
52:33
Speaker 2: had it under control. Actually, well they did for the
52:36
Speaker 2: first couple of years, so there was no back. I mean,
52:38
Speaker 2: the a lot of companies still pushed for their employee
52:42
Speaker 2: to get vaccinated. But if you're self employeed, of you're retired,
52:46
Speaker 2: nobody is asking you to get vaccinated. So many people
52:49
Speaker 2: didn't you know. In fact, one of the concerns at
52:53
Speaker 2: the about opening up in China, at least in terms
52:56
Speaker 2: of policy debate, was like there's still far too many
52:59
Speaker 2: out early who had not had vaccines. You know, what
53:02
Speaker 2: would happen to them if the zero COVID policy were lifted,
53:07
Speaker 2: but there was never at any point a man of
53:11
Speaker 2: vaccine mandating for China.
53:13
Speaker 1: I think we have barely scratched the surface here and
53:16
Speaker 1: this is really just an introduction. I'm really keen to
53:19
Speaker 1: speak to you again and hopefully we'll see you on
53:22
Speaker 1: UK called News from time to time as well to
53:25
Speaker 1: discuss uh ITS perspectives from China and from from the
53:29
Speaker 1: Far East in particular. Thank you very much for joining
53:32
Speaker 1: me today, Carl. It has been a fascinating conversation and
53:35
Speaker 1: we will do this again if you're happy to do
53:37
Speaker 1: it very very soon.
53:38
Speaker 2: Thank you very much. Mi