Latest / C Tolle Run / 451: David Roche - Coaching is the Ultimate Honor
Transcript
- Carrie: David, you're on C Tally Run, thank you so much. C Tolle Run: This episode is supported by Tailwind Nutrition. Big shout out to Tailwind Nutrition for supporting the amazing and awesome women's retreat that I just had with the Berkey. We had over 40 women at Stride to She, and it was so much fun. And they were just spoiled rotten by Tailwind and my fave Adidas. david: ⁓ my god, this is wild. So we were talking for just a minute off camera, and I am a little bit starstruck in like a crazy way. I mean, that still happens to me so much in the roadrunning world where I just feel like I'm venturing into a land with my heroes. So I was telling Carrie how I used to watch your YouTube videos, like ancient C Tolle Run: Also, big shout out to Cavetta who gave everyone an amazing sports bra. We loved all of it. Everyone enjoyed the light but tasty recovery hydration throughout the weekend as it was super hot. And we were getting after it during our runs, our walks, our strength training, our yoga, the drills, hills, all the things. We were doing all of it. So thank you so much, Tailwind. And if you want to try something that's easy on your stomach, gives steady energy, it's an all-in-one fuel that combines calories. david: times ago. And that's how I learned so much about like even now, the core routine I recommend to athletes is an adoption of your core routine. So ⁓ this is so fun. Carrie: That's a good one. I am so excited to have you. And even just like I was telling Sarah before she she's our producer on the show, along with Andrew, but I was saying that you have such a light. Like you are so fun to listen to, to read your interviews, to follow along your journey. Like you just seem to brighten everybody's day. And I also think it's hilarious how you and your wife like always talk about being sexy or always like flirting. And like it's really, really cool to see that you still. C Tolle Run: hydration, carbs, electrolytes, all of it. Tailwind's for you. So whether you're a runner, a cyclist, a skier, whatever, athletes just want to focus on what's ahead of them. david: Ha ha. C Tolle Run: And that's what Tailwind does for you. So I highly recommend it. Check it out. Head on over to TailwindNutrition.com. And all of our listeners will get 20% off if you use the code TOLLY20. That's T-O-L-L-E 20. And thanks again to Tailwind. Head on over to TailwindNutrition.com. Carrie: have that energy with your wife and your kids and your athletes and all the stuff. So we are gonna get into your entire story. And that's I'm I know because you know what else I love? That you were a football player. Like you are a multi-sport athlete. You do all the things. You bike, you run, you can run routes, like you could do all the things. So I just want you to explain like who you are and and how you kind of grew up and became an athlete david: ⁓ my goodness. Yeah. Yeah. So now I'm a running coach in Boulder, Colorado, but that wasn't the way it always was. So I grew up on the eastern shore of Maryland, which anybody who's ever driven through there knows it's just cornfields and flatness. And went from there to play football ⁓ at Columbia and quit pretty quickly when I realized, this isn't Queen Anne's County, Maryland anymore, even though they were not a good football team. I just I was particularly not cut out for it. ⁓ and then C Tolle Run: Hey everyone, I'm Olympian Carrie Tullofson and welcome to the C Tally Run podcast. Today we are chatting with David Roche. David is a coach, an ultra runner, an author. He and his wife Megan have an awesome podcast called Some Work, All Play. He's a father, a husband, as I said already. And actually, you can hear the passion that those two have together. It is so much fun. But speaking of fun, he is fun. He just brings life to the party. And I can't wait for you to meet him and for myself to meet him. He is the Leadville 100 record holder and he won in 2024 and in 2025. He started his career as a football player at Columbia University before turning to the world of ultrarunning and coaching. He now coaches many world-class athletes, whether they're ultrarunners or road racers. ⁓ david: Always w knew I wanted to be an athlete for life. And my dad had been a cyclist when I was young and I had done things like watch the Tour de France. I like, ⁓ I'm gonna get into biking. And then I realized very similar to football. It's like actually not cut out for that either. And and that it was like the nerves part of it of going downhill and things. ⁓ and so found my way to running and you know, it was a long journey to in my own running career, but it was very helpful because nothing was dogma to me. Like Carrie: Yeah. Okay. C Tolle Run: And we get to hear all about it on CTALIRUN this week. in this episode, we just get to know David, his training philosophy, the athletes that he coaches, some of them who have been on CTALIRUN, like Jess McLean, Emily Venters, Amanda Vestry, just to name a few. And we also hear how he and his wife do it all. david: I wanted to learn everything there was to learn, just like I would approach any problem. ⁓ and so had a lot to learn and it took a really long time, but ⁓ basically just involved asking so many questions to find out how to go from, you know, foot quitting football to like where I wanted to go, which is hopefully to see what I was capable of as an athlete. C Tolle Run: With kiddos and endurance lifestyles, plus their careers. It's crazy, you guys, and he's gonna unpack it all for us right here. So let's get after it. Carrie: Yeah, but you also were a lawyer. Like you weren't just in this athlete world, right? Like I love it. We have two I have five people in my family and two of them are lawyers and my dad really wanted me to go to law school and I was like, No thanks, I don't wanna take that the LSAT whatever, what is it called? What's david: ⁓ Yeah. Yeah, the El Al Sad is right and I that's a great decision, honestly. ⁓ Carrie: I did not want to do that. I'm like, no more tests. I'm done with that. But I mean, you you have obviously so many passions, but also like you're a brilliant guy. So how did that law degree and the you know, you become an attorney then just go to the back burner and go all in on endurance sports? C Tolle Run: Thanks so much for joining me today on CTolyron. My guest today was David Roche. You can find him on social media at Mountain Roche ⁓ or at their website, www.swaprunning.com. That's ⁓ S-W-A-P. ⁓ david: Ha ha. C Tolle Run: Running.com. Before we go, a big shout out to Rundot for supporting the show and to Andrew Harley and Sarah Bernie, the amazing producers behind the Try Dot Rundot and C Tolly Run podcasts. Also, thanks to Tailwind Nutrition for supporting this episode as well. If you'd like to try it out, and I promise you you will love it, you can go to tailwindnutrition.com, use the code TOLY20, and you'll get 20% off your order. That's TOLY20 for 20% off at tailwind tailwindnutrition.com. david: So I wanted to well, I studied environmental science, wanted to get into something to, you know, do the old thing that everyone that's 20 years old wants to do to like save the world and got into public interest environmental law. ⁓ and after law school, and I met Megan at law school, which is the biggest life changing thing that could have happened to me, but ⁓ you know, got a a job in that world in the public interest world. And Megan was at med school at Stanford and Carrie: Yeah. C Tolle Run: And if you're a fan of the pod, we'd love your support. Please take a moment to leave a rating and review on Apple Podcasts and share the show with your friends. All you have to do is visit ctolerun.com slash review, and it'll bring you right to our show's page. Hey, we're on Facebook, we're on YouTube, we're on X, we're on Instagram at Ctollirun and at Carrie Tollofson. And you know what? You can find us anytime at visiting ctollyrun.com. david: And you know, she saw how obsessed I was with this world and how curious I was about everything. And I mean, literally like when I say I looked up to you, I mean you're one of those people, like Kara Goucher's another one. Like, there's just so many people like that that I'm like, they were my heroes, you know? And she was working late into the night and she's like, David, you should become a coach. You love this. You talk to everyone about it. You ask everyone questions, you won't stop reading about it. Just try it. ⁓ and so C Tolle Run: Thank you so much for joining us today, and don't forget to get after it. Carrie: Wow. david: Megan's the smartest person I've ever met and like she knows me so well. And if she believed in me, I was like, well, maybe I should take the leap, you know? And so it was all an accident. It it was never the intent. And I think I just got extremely lucky a number of different times, including now, you know, fast forwarding to now, it's like now coaching these road athletes, like that is another stroke of luck that it easily could have turned a different direction. So I think ⁓ yeah, and then eventually realized that this was what I wanna do for with my life, you know, like Carrie: Yeah. Yeah. david: On my tombstone, I wanted to say dad, husband, coach, you know. And so yeah, coaching to me is the absolute all ⁓ ultimate honor ⁓ of a life. And when someone trusts you like that, it's the most meaningful thing. And so I am just so lucky I found it. And and basically, no matter what profession I ended up in, I would hope that people would think of me as a coach, even if it wasn't as like a running coach. Carrie: Yeah. Yeah. I get what you're saying. Yep. I mean, I say this all the time, but I have had really good coaches in my life and they have become family members. And I think that seems to be the way that you coach too. Like these your athletes will forever look up to you, have you give them life advice as well. I mean, if you are truly a good coach and somebody that invests everything into their athletes, you do want to go through life with them. And it's not just the result that you want to get. You wanna make sure you help develop great human beings along with being great athletes. david: Yeah, and I think running in general, like most things we do, is a journey toward hopefully self-acceptance. Right? It's not even a journey towards fulfillment or happiness or or those terms that are amorphous and difficult to reach. It's just being okay with yourself. And I think what's magic about pushing yourself as an athlete, whether it's a professional or someone that's just getting into it, is you are going to be faced with so many ego deaths where you're like, ⁓ my God, I suck. ⁓ over and over and over again. And and you know, I think success as a runner in particular. is a progression of failing on progressively bigger stages. and but as a result, the cool thing is what happens when you hit those moments. Usually it gives you a chance to recontextualize your place as an athlete and as a human. And my hope is that as a coach that celebrates those failures and downtimes as much, if not more, than the successes, it helps just gently nudge an athlete in that direction over time. And so my dream is not that an athlete makes the Olympics. It Carrie: Yeah. david: Though that super cool and like obviously life changing financially for them and that is a huge consideration too. But it's that twenty years from now, even if I coach someone for six months, they look back and say, You know, I have a tool I didn't have before, which is, you know, I am able to cheer for myself like David cheered for me. Carrie: ⁓ David, it's so good. It's so fun. And I get this. Now and I need to know first of all, we're gonna get into your love story with Megan because I wanna hear this. I mean, if anyone is here has heard your podcast, you guys just are so cool together. But ⁓ david: Ha ha ha. Yeah. Carrie: So I wanna hear that. But let's since you're talking about coaching, I wanna get into a little bit of some of the athletes that you're coaching right now, Jess McLean, Emily Venters, Amanda Vestry, Rachel Rudell, like Ali Ostrander, a lot of these people that are in my world, right, that I get to commentate on. Obviously, I know a lot of your alter runners, and that's kind of where it all began. But you really now are one of the biggest coaches, biggest names in the road racing world amongst females too, a lot of female athletes. So let's talk about how that all began. Like who was your first road racer? Do you remember? david: I yeah, so I've been reflecting on this just this week. In fact, I wrote a post on it because I always dreamed of being a road and track coach. Like I I mean, at the core, while I like to talk in these lofty terms of self-actualization and and happiness and things like that, ⁓ you're a performance coach at the end of the day. And that idea, like the pinnacle is road and track. Like, as cool as trails and ultras are, it's just not. Carrie: Okay. david: Playing at the margins in the same way. And so, yeah. It's growing, it's growing. But even then, there's too many variables that essentially you end up getting talent in that world is overwhelming sometimes relative to Rode and Track, where yes, everybody's talented. And so every 0.5% makes a massive difference. And that to me is such a cool question. But so like I always dreamed of it, but imagine that. Carrie: Yet, right? Yeah, it's growing. It's getting there. Yeah. Mm, I see. Okay, okay. david: You're a big fan of basketball and you're like, I want to coach in the NBA. What how do you even do that? It's not gonna happen unless you start at age twenty or have a background in it. And Megan and I never did road racing ourselves. So it always felt like one of those things that, yeah, it's just gonna be an unrealized dream where like I have all these ideas and learn from all these people, but it's just never gonna get a chance. But really lucked out that s the trail and road like crossover athlete became Carrie: Sure. david: a thing. And because our approach to troll running is also focused on speed and power development long term, fueling your body, ⁓ you know, all the stuff that we're known for now. ⁓ I think athletes reached out. So a good example is Grayson Murphy, ⁓ multiple time world champion. Yep. She's the best. And, you know, but she believed in us ⁓ i for the road too, you know? And so that gave some athletes a little bit more confidence, I think. And then Anna Gibson, who Carrie: Yes, Grayson too. She's been on here. david: I mean, gosh, she made the Olympics recently in ski mountaineering, but was doing both. And then I think Alio, you know, was the like real real turning point because she was getting into trails and you know, we started chatting just as friends and ⁓ eventually that became like coaching. And th the coolest part about that is like one, every time an athlete believes in you, it means a lot. But two, this is Allie freaking Ostrander. I mean, she's all you know, she's already a legend, even if she retired tomorrow. Carrie: That is so cool. david: But the thing that I saw in Allie really quickly was that Allie, even though she was moving to trails and had all these things, it's like my role was eventually to see what might be possible for her in roads and track. And what I've told her pretty early on is, look, I know it feels like it's a long way away, but if you just go back to this and stick with it, the sky is the limit. And now, I mean, I w I wouldn't talk to her even much about this one on one, but I can put it out here because You know, I believe in her so much. Like, I think what she's gonna do in the next few years is gonna blow away the sport. Like I think she's you know, she's a two twenty marathoner type athlete. And so, you know, but but basically it was that it was that once she took a leap, then Jess McLean, I think, ⁓ took the next step and because Allie and Jess are the most respected athletes you could ever meet, they're just and and it was just luck, you know. Like I really think the it's one of those I just have endless gratitude towards those two. Carrie: So nice. I mean, and they're such fun women. Like all of the women, they're all kind of goofy. Like they're all, you know, happy, go lucky women that are trying, you know, we know Allie's story. We know Jess's story. She went away from the sport, came back. I mean, it's all of them have their own story, as every athlete does, but they're happy, go lucky people that I can see why you guys mesh. Because you're not gonna let somebody get too too focused where it's not fun anymore. david: Yeah. Carrie: You know, I mean it it really seems like that's the kind of person you are, and also you are s you are very serious about it. But this is this is just a a piece of the pie. david: Yeah, I mean, I I think it's back to what you were joking about, like making it sexy with Megan on the podcast. And I mean, what that is at the core is leaning into authenticity for myself. You know, like everyone's authenticity is different and presents differently. And like mine is very much, you know, trying to make people comfortable, make them laugh, and you know, all the stuff that you might understand if you see me. But the thing is, like, I actually think that's a hurdle at times unless an athlete is already bought into it. Carrie: Mm. Yeah. So good. david: At the start. Like, you know, there's some people who you are for and some people who you are not in life generally. And because I am aggressively authentic with literally everybody I meet, you know, like my job took me to Capitol Hill to work with senators and stuff when I was a lawyer, and as the same guy then I am now. and you know, that and and the thing is like usually people respond to authenticity, but it the, you know, so usually when an athlete starts, they have some like, okay, I see him. Carrie: Sure. Yeah. david: and appreciate where him and Megan are coming from and understand that like underneath that is not just like, ⁓ everybody should be happy. It's actually like, ⁓ we all die and everything's impermanent. So let's try to make the most of the time we have. You know, like those types of ideas. So yeah. Carrie: Mm. Yeah. Make the most. I like that. Make the most out of it. ⁓ you reminded me of my dad so much just then because he was always buttoned up with his, you know, suit and tie on as a lawyer. But then I secretly thought he was like Superman, where he would take that suit and tie off and he'd have his lycra or his spandex on, getting ready to get on the bike or to go for a run, and then we'd be embarrassed because it'd be like, Dad, can you please not wear your spike your bike shorts to the football game? Like, you know, it's just how it was. ⁓ david: Okay. ⁓ my god, that I identify so much with that. So my dad was a lawyer and is the original coach Roach. So he would coach every one of my teams, even though he had no time. I don't literally don't know how he did it, often in Lycra. And he he took these teams of jokers, and I'm including myself in that list. Like they were it made no sense. And every single one of them like overperformed, you know, w Carrie: I love that that Okay. Yeah. Ha ha ha. david: won championships, all of that stuff. And I I look back on it and I'm like, it's because he believed in everybody and saw things in them that were within them all along, but he helped them realize that it was within them. And ⁓ you know, he did that for me too. Like I never considered my own athletics that important once I became a coach. But like my dad kept saying, go for it, do all these things. And like he knew I was going to accomplish things that I I literally couldn't have even dreamed of. Carrie: Yeah. david: after I accomplished them. I remember finishing Leadville the first time and was like, This I don't think this is real. I think this is a dream that didn't just happen. And my dad's like, ⁓ yeah, I've known this would happen since I first saw you run in two thousand six or whatever, you know? Carrie: That is so cool. I mean, I think you nailed it there. Like, just be and it because it was your dad and you could see it, but when you have someone believe in you, there's not enough people that do that in all of our worlds. Like, really, it is so special when you have that connection like that. I really, I really believe I love it when people would say, Hey champ, or you know, how you doing, Rockstar? Like things like that. It just slifts you up and lets you go. Let's talk a little bit about your mentality as a coach that maybe you've learned as an athlete. And I definitely want to hear your athlete. david: Yeah. Carrie: athletic career because you're clearly still very much in it and you're hopefully getting ready to run Mudville. We'll see how the fires are, but we're gonna talk about that too. But let's talk about, you know, how your approach is to coaching all of these great rock star athletes that you have. david: Ha ha. Yeah, I mean, my general approach is so at the end of the day, I want everything to revolve around constantly learning and evolving with both the athletes and the sport. So the hard part about talking about training theory or methodology is that there's not really a system aside from a few principles of building up your power long term, that running is a power sport and we want to have the most powerful athletes possible. And that then connects to how we think about fueling and elements like that. ⁓ but then the fun parts of training theory are let's always pay attention to what's happening at the front end of the sport, not just the outliers, but what's happening below that and then evolve based on how athletes are constantly responding and within that framework be in communication with every athlete every day. So like, you know, I want to hear about not just every workout, but every easy run, and then be responding to that on that day so that I can also learn. This isn't just about supporting the athletes, so that I can learn from them. And so Yeah, it's basically always evolving and ends up being usually, especially for the female athletes overall, a few less workouts than are traditionally given in most systems, not training women like men that, you know, ⁓ in general. ⁓ though some athletes can sustain more. And mostly just trying to how can we adapt to stimuli rather than just stack stress? Because I think sometimes what's celebrated in running and running coaching is This athlete accumulated a lot of stress. And it's like, cool, but like I don't give a shit about that. I want someone to adapt. And and like basically the the huge thing that I wanted to push back against is the approach that, well, if you throw two dozen eggs, two dozen talented eggs at a wall, you know, how many don't break and then they become champions and then everyone's like, ⁓ this is a great coach. I I want to see what what happens if we don't throw any eggs at a wall. Like we don't take that chance. Carrie: Hm. That is brilliant. I mean that is really what a lot of coaches do think. Like more, more, more, harder, harder, harder. Like what can we do to not break you but get you close? You know? Yeah. david: Yeah, well that that horrifies me. So because the problem is, so a lot of running training theory derives from outliers. And I'm acclu including my own biases in that risk list. Like, you know, if I derive training theory from Jess McLean, I'm deriving it from someone that is not similar to almost anybody else on the planet. And that includes, like, you know, the best in the world. So like I gotta be careful with it. But the problem is when you derive training theory from outliers, which is i anyone could go back to their preconceived notions and they're like, ⁓ well, this is what Carrie: Right. david: You know, Ingebritzen does or whatever. And it's like the the hard part is they are specifically selected for the traits to respond to that stimulus. Like that is why they are freakish. So if we could measure them genetically and get down to the nitty-gritty of like what causes this, we would see adaptations that are in, you know, point zero zero zero zero one percent in the population. So the hard part is when training theory gets distilled from outliers and then interpolated down to everybody else, you end up just giving them. way too hard of work and way too much of it. And the the hard part is that is not what determines how good an athlete gets. What determines how good an athlete gets is how can you saturate the adaptation pathways and then let them move forward with that. So saturation points happen at different places and we want to be, you know, really aware of that. And that that ties back not just to background and training theory and things. It also ties back to muscle fiber typology and their fueling history and a number of other like scientific principles. And so just paying attention to that, like I think is the holy grail of running coaching. And the the hard part then becomes you mentioned a lot of female athletes that were coaching. It's like, well, a lot of training theory is distilled from male athletes or women that have anomalous adaptation rates. And so when that's been applied to women in the past, it it just doesn't work. And you see short careers and, you know, underperformance and ⁓ also th most importantly, you see like health trajectories that aren't positive. And, you know, at the end of the day, health is the most important thing. Carrie: Mm-hmm. Yeah. For sure. How much do you emphasize? I mean, I think that I've read and heard that, you know, mileage for you is it's not necessarily a number that you're focusing on all the time. You actually are a little bit on the lower end. And it seems like that from what I've researched with your athletes, the the road racers, even days off, it seems like Jess I think Jess McClain takes every Sunday off or roughly. can can you just elaborate a little bit on that? Because we always talk mileage, right? Everyone talks about it. So tell us a little bit about your philosophy there. david: Yeah, again again I guess mileage is easy to measure. So it becomes like a red herring of measurement that yes, there might be some general contours of mileage correlating with aerobic stimulus, but the body has no concept of what a week is. So if you're playing in that sandbox, you're ultimately trying to stack stress at a time when an athlete probably doesn't need it a hundred percent of the time. So, ⁓ most of our athletes rest weekly, not all. Some do once every two ish weeks, like ⁓ Carrie: Mm-hmm. david: That's what Emily Venters does right now, but most rest every week, ⁓ including Jess and Ally, and many cross-train and and the idea is well, if you think about volume, even as a proxy, the seven day structure is just a random ⁓ quirk of our calendars. There's no reason. Yeah, no. Yeah, I mean, I think a much better framework is something like a single day, two days. So, you know, our athletes will like today, Jess did Carrie: Yeah, like who made that up? I guess it's just cause it's the week. david: 14 mile workout this AM and she's gonna do four miles this PM. So she does low volume relative to other professional athletes, but that's a huge day. And, you know, she's stacking often one to two to three of those a week, depending on where we're at in the cycle. So we're thinking about that type of aerobic stress, but we're not thinking about how can we stack chronic stress. We're sticking th thinking about how does the acute stress lead to adaptation over time. And ⁓ yeah, so basically I think weekly mileage matters. Carrie: Yeah. Okay. david: But it only matters as a proxy for how these acute stresses are accumulating for athletes. And in generally, I mean, you're not when you go beyond ninety minutes, you're not really adding much aerobic stimulus, but you are adding a huge amount of mechanical load and risk. And so we're avoiding that often outside of ⁓ long runs in the road athletes, especially. Carrie: Well and another thing with Jess, at Boston she ran her PR and what did she run? Two twenty? Yeah, two twenty, forty nine. david: Yeah, two twenty forty nine. Even though when I was looking at the pictures, it said two twenty forty seven when she crossed the line, so I don't know how that timing worked. Carrie: ⁓ yeah, I don't get that either. But I mean, she didn't even what was her longest run? It was I think 18. david: Yeah, she I mean we don't we don't do over distance or anything like that. I just don't think Yeah. Carrie: I just think that's awesome though. I love that. And we don't talk about it enough. There we're always talking about, ⁓ the 23, the 24, even the 27 miler. I don't know if it's just as you know, it's got glitz and glamour when you go that far. But we don't talk enough that Jess McLean ran 220 and her long run was 18 miles. david: Yeah, I mean, I think the hard part for the marathon in particular, nowadays especially, is that the entire principle of why everyone's going so fast is the theory of zone compression, like training zone compression. So at the top end of road marathons, we have compressed VO2 and or sorry, critical velocity VO2, so like high end with LT2, so threshold. And then athletes are basically holding threshold the entire race. And if you're doing a twenty five mile long run, great. But that's not gonna help you hold threshold in these races. Like in, you know, the the fueling revolution has been essential to r allow athletes to do that. And so I could see a 25 mile run where you're, you know, getting the mechanical stimulus, maybe doing downhills, things like that. But if you overdo that stress, you're just making it harder for the athlete to do the types of things that allow them to hold threshold, hold Lt2 for, you know, two and a half hours. Like, so I I I think sometimes it's Carrie: Mm. Yeah. david: The marathon's so tricky that we can lean on superstition rather than like an actual why behind something. And that's where having Megan on board and be like my mentor, even though she's my wife and everything is so helpful because she trained me, you know, from her MD PhD background to be like, if you don't know the why for something happening, and we're not talking about studies here, we're talking about, you know, mechanistic theories for why you're doing something and or you see it in the real world. Carrie: Yeah. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. david: and to success and you don't know why it's happening. That's a place to lean on and to make sure you that you do have theories for why. Otherwise, what you might actually just be seeing is the old outlier response we talked about. And that is a scary place to occupy because then you're not going to get generalizability. And the ultimate goal is to like have a approach that would work for, you know, totally different athletes because it's responsive to their needs and the like underlying physiology of it. Carrie: I love it. I love that you two are this team that can just like nerd out on a all of it. I want david: Well, you know, it's it's the best. It's the best because like like I can learn things at a level that is dangerous. Like where I know enough to n know think I know most of it, but not enough to actually like be a doctor, obviously. like Carrie: Yeah. And then you have a doctor as a wife that can actually like back it. ⁓ david: We'll have a doctor as a wife that can like, David, that is bullshit. David, stop. Stop. You're the bullshit artist now, you know? And like having someone Yeah, yeah. Exactly. I'm presenting a case. ⁓ and no, I mean it it's the it's the coolest thing because I I reflect on how my coaching has evolved and it's essentially just evolved with Megan's brilliance as like kind of the guiding principle of it. and it it's been just incredibly helpful because I think like Carrie: That's the attorney in you. That's the attorney in you. You can make anything sound good. david: She's given me the courage. Because she I mean, it wasn't just the beginning. Like at the e later on, when the the road athletes started reaching out, for example, Megan's like, David, do it. Like I was questioning because I'm like, look, I know these are $200,000 decisions for these athletes. Like if you think about or more million dollar decisions in some cases, if you play your cards right. And not that the coach like, I think way too much of running focuses on the coaches. Like, it's more about the athlete, but like at the same time, it does matter. And I'm like, well. Carrie: Sure. Yeah. david: Was this okay? Like I I think I can. ⁓ and Megan's like, David, you're gonna make these athletes so much money. ⁓ and so her saying that to me just gave me the courage that I didn't have in myself. Carrie: So cool. ⁓ I love it. I love it. seeing your athletes. I what I think is so cool, David, about your athletes is it's not just Jess is running a marathon. She actually ran a ⁓ a track mile this year in in January or December, you know, like and then she gets on the track or or on the roads and she'll do a 10K and then she'll go do the marathon and then ⁓ I'm gonna just jump into this half marathon. Like your athletes and that's not just Jess. I just keep talking about Jess. That's Allie O. That is ⁓ Amanda Vestry. Like she jumps on the track although I think that Amanda said she kind of she doesn't really want david: Yeah. Carrie: to go back to the track anymore. Emily Venters, the same, but she just truly loves the road, but she can run everything from the 10K e she can run a sub-15 minute ⁓ 5K. You know, I mean, these athletes have range. david: Yeah. ⁓ And right now, how how fast do you think Emily could go right now? I was thinking about that. Carrie: ⁓ my gosh, she is just flying right now. And her confidence, when her confidence is on, look out. david: I mean I've never seen anybody run like she runs. I mean just the the videos of her on the treadmill, I was like before the 6K, when I was just talking to her, I was like, look, I I know looking at biomechanics via video is not like scientifically vetted, but I'm like look, when this course turns down at mile two, I'm like no one has a shot. I I know that's weird to say to an athlete because I never want to like blow smoke, but it's like I just you can just tell when it's like there's another thirty seconds Carrie: Yeah. She's so sound. Ha ha. david: Per mile in that form and yeah, I'm giddy like the amount that I'm giddy about her future is I mean, it's like the most exciting thing. Like all these athletes Yeah. Carrie: Yeah. Aw. And that's she needed that. She needed she needs that, I think. ⁓ and she was on the podcast saying that. Like she's running happy right now. But she has had her ups and downs in this sport. I think when she has someone like you in her corner, it's a really good combination. So bravo. david: Well, she did eight by five minutes this morning on the uphill treadmill, which is another thing that we incorporate for a lot of these athletes, and just monstrous output. ⁓ even though it's an aerobic session, she's just ⁓ the hardest worker too. I mean, that's one thing about all these athletes is like they are such hard workers and seeing it in practice is like inspiring to me. I'm like when I'm thinking about waking up at five AM just a coach, I'm like, man, if they can do what they're doing, I'd gotta Carrie: It's so fun. Mm. Yeah, you gotta get after it. ⁓ let's talk about you a little bit. So you are getting ready for Leadville. I saw you were on the treadmill. You do all the crazy cross training stuff. You're coming back from major cr what was it? What happened again last winter? You broke your foot? No david: Get my ass in gear. ⁓ no. And so ⁓ I've been lucky with that stuff overall, but ⁓ last year Carrie: Was it not a break what what you're in a boot? What was it again? I can't remember. Tor. That's what it was. david: tore my plantar fascia in a during a hundred mile race last year. So ⁓ it was I mean all this stuff honestly coaching is liberating because every time you go through anything, good or bad, you're like, ⁓ this will make me a better coach. And ⁓ I think it has. I think one reason that we're seeing what we've seen this year with like some of the athletes we get to coach is just going through something I hadn't gone through before has made me more empathetic, more understanding. Carrie: Yeah, for sure. Yep. david: even beyond what I wanted to be. And so yeah, no, I mean it's been it's been a journey athletically like overall. ⁓ but the most fun part of that is that I get to be a guinea pig for everything, you know? ⁓ where I get to test it myself and know what it feels like most of all, even though my physiology is obviously different than everybody else's. But ⁓ that's the most important thing to me is that I never want to give anything to an athlete that I don't understand what I am asking of them, like in terms of their brains especially, but also their bodies. Like Carrie: Yeah. Sure. david: ⁓ that gets back to like the old throwing the eggs against a wall thing. If I can't comfortably understand what I'm doing, then I shouldn't be giving it because that is just like asking for disaster for an athlete sometimes mentally, and that's a place I want to avoid. Carrie: Mm-hmm. I mean, and that's I think that's one of the reasons I ran the marathon, David. I am I mean, you know, when I was racing, it was basically you find your find your lane and you stick to it. So for me it was middle distance, fifteen hundred, three K's, and five Ks. And then after I had children, I was like, ⁓ I'll just run some marathons, more so I can commentate on them and actually know what happens at mile twenty or know that death march and things like that. So you're doing it now as an athlete. I did it as a commentator. ⁓ but I want to hear about your training going david: Mm-hmm. Mm. Hehehe. Carrie: Into, like I said, kind of at the top of the show, hopefully, Leadville. Have you heard any updates? Like, there's fires right around there. How's it going? david: Yeah, I mean, the race is gonna happen this year, which is great. Probably not on the same course, definitely not. ⁓ so we'll see. I mean, I'm thinking that I'm probably not gonna do it this year, that this is gonna be, yeah, you know, the hard part about all this is like I also don't wanna be an idiot ⁓ overall. Just and, you know, I the last two years have been wild for me. And I am thinking of this year a little bit as a red shirt year where I Carrie: Yep. Yeah. Really? Okay. david: work really hard and and get better, but mostly focus on health and hopefully giving it a another chapter in my journey. So I'm 38 years old now. ⁓ and like one part of coaching is being really aware of what aging trajectories look like for different athletes, right? And for different profiles. And I'm like, shoot, if I don't if I don't respect this now, this could be like the end of a career solely because I let it prolong. so now I'm much more thinking about Carrie: Spring chicken. Mm. david: All right, this is Megan's time to shine and ⁓ I'm incredibly excited for her to get that opportunity to now that her heart is healthy to to put herself out there. Carrie: Yeah. So right now you don't have a s a race on the schedule? And when were you in Leadville training? david: Nothing right now. Well, I was trying to g I was gonna see if it was okay to get back and you know, plantar fascia issues are just so complicated and yeah. Oof. ⁓ my goodness. So yeah, you get it. Like I n and I th the hard part is your body's healing is used against it, where you get this like just inadequate healing response, and thickening and things like that. So long story short, I am just trying to pull back the bow a little bit and Carrie: They're terrible. I had it for sixteen months in one foot and eighteen in the other. Yeah. Okay. Okay. david: Set myself up for the future. Carrie: Let's talk about then Megan because yes, you guys have had a lot happen with her. You mentioned just a little bit about her heart, but she is obviously kicking butt and and healthy right now. So can you give us can you give us a little background on on that? But then also I gotta hear your love story because you two are so dang cute. So tell me about her health first, because we were right there. So let's go there first. Ha ha you did. david: Yeah. Okay. Okay, I was gonna start with our love story. It's like I did the mail order bride thing ⁓ from the genius institute. No. ⁓ so no for her health, ⁓ for those that don't know, Megan had her first bout of myocarditis and pericarditis, which is inflammation of the heart muscle and around the heart muscle of the lining of it, ⁓ back in 2021. And that set off a five year process of recurrent ⁓ pericarditis heart issues. Carrie: ⁓ okay, I see. david: And it's so challenging because, you know, Megan is a legend of Charning. Like she she was one of the best ever to do it. ⁓ but then, you know, she had the the heart issues, we had two kids, and so much of her dreams have felt pretty distant. But then this year, as she went through another bout, as she was getting ready for a big race, ⁓ she was able to get access to a new drug that treats recurrent pericarditis. like at shocking levels. So recurrence rates went from 74% to 7% in clinical trials. Like one of the most magical drugs they've ever developed. and it seems like for now she's feeling great and she's training so well. Like right now she's hammering at the elliptical at the gym here in Boulder. And I can't wait to hear how it goes. and so I I'm just having so much fun getting to see her shine. Because like my favorite thing to envision here, and this goes for every athlete Carrie: So cool. ⁓ david: that we're talking about. It's like, you know, if Megan is able to put herself out there, in in whatever story that is, whether it's of success or failure or whatever, the world's gonna get to know Megan outside of our little bubble that listens to our podcast or whatever. And the world's gonna be so much better because they got to know Megan. And that's what I'm pumped about is like I just wanna see her on start lines if she can do it. Because if the world gets to know her, everybody's gonna feel the warmth and the love and Carrie: ⁓ that's so cool. david: It's gonna be so cool. And like I got to do that a little bit via athletics and like yeah, I mean, I'm nothing compared to her, so I just can't wait for that. Carrie: No. So tell me what happens to her when her heart starts to, you know, go the wrong way. david: So initially it was like being shot in the heart ⁓ after a run and and in that first one she couldn't do any exercise for six months. That's when we had our first kid. So Megan's a multitasker, she's like, ⁓ healing from this heart, let's do it. but the hardest part is the follow-up cases usually felt like, ⁓ she just couldn't lie on her chest the right way, she couldn't maybe breathe the right way during running. And you know how when you run, you're aware of things all the time, even if you're not injured. When that's your heart and you've had these these history, so scary but also so uncertain. And so yeah, she was dealing with that basically constantly. And then it got tired to I thought this. Carrie: So like her would her heart rate like sp like go super high or is it just pain? david: Just a little bit of light pain. And I mean, there's a lot of listeners to this podcast that probably have this condition as well. ⁓ it's so common and so sad because once it starts happening, it just keeps happening. It's a inflammation response in the worst place in the body. so in June of this year, I think maybe it was late May, we were in the hospital and ⁓ you know, for three nights and she got a cardiac calf. ⁓ like I mean, the types of things where everybody else on the Carrie: Mm. david: unit was in their eighties, you know, and Megan, this like superstar athlete and coach in person, is out there, you know, in I think it was one of those moments where it was truly rock bottom. And that was the same time she got approved for this medication, which is a weekly injection. And the cost $30,000 a month. So thank God we were able to get it covered. and it's just like s it's miraculous. Like it's the ultimate life changing thing because she's finally able to be unburdened again. Carrie: Okay. Okay. Yeah. david: Where she doesn't have to always be scared. Carrie: And she can be herself. I mean, she that's this whole world of endurance and and I know that she would make it work however, but it's really nice that she can still be herself. david: Yeah, no, exactly. Like you know, we were told by doctors in the hospital there that if any of the tests came back positive, she was never gonna be allowed to run again and probably wouldn't be around to even like walk up hills in a focused way again. It was that scary. And ⁓ like if you had told the doctors we'd be where we are now, ⁓ at that point, they probably would have put that at single digit percentage, maybe even under a percent. Like it was that scary. And so Carrie: Yeah, elevate. Mm-hmm. david: It's one of those moments where I'm like, and this is why like when we talk about my foot or whatever, and just I'm not in a rush because I'm just so grateful. Like to do anything, like and to do like to do the runs I'm able to do with her now. Like that was my only goal is to be able if we could ever do that again. And so we ran 17 miles together on Sunday, and it was just like magical. And so yeah, I'm just incredibly excited. Carrie: Yes. For every day, yeah. Yeah. Okay, tell me how you fell in love. david: Okay. so ⁓ yeah, I mean it's very, very lucky. Again, I feel like a lot of the good things in my life are just so solely luck. So ⁓ w at Columbia there was a woman named Hannah Klingman who ran on the track team and she was trying to qualify for NCAA regionals at Icon Stadium, I believe, actually, where they're doing the USA's. And I wasn't like a track runner or anything, but we had crossed paths in classes, and so Carrie: Okay. Mm, yeah. Where USA's are this weekend. Yep. david: I went just to cheer her on to like scream, even though I wasn't a coach back then, I was very much the same guy. So I was just like screaming on the infield for her. And then on the ride back, she's like, ⁓ you're going to Duke. You should meet my friend. you two are the weirdest people I know. ⁓ and like a and she meant that this is coming from someone who would go on to like she became a wildland firefighter and just like a really smart, eccentric, cool person. ⁓ so then Megan and I Carrie: Uh-huh. david: like connected over Facebook Messenger and then canceled on each other forty seven times. Because we were like, ⁓ well, you know, this isn't good like from this this friend, very cool, but like, we don't got time for this. but then we did meet at over ice cream and closed the ice cream place down and I bought a ring like two weeks later. and then didn't it was honestly a terrible decision and I don't know what I was thinking because there was a lot of water under the bridge between then and actually when we got engaged. via a ring pop when we actually did it. ⁓ but yeah, so it was you know, meeting young and now we're in our late thirties and two kids and a dog that is now fourteen. That might have been the only reason we're together now because like Megan was going to Stanford, I was going to a job in DC, I took the dog and she couldn't she couldn't break up with me. It was great. Carrie: ⁓ this is great. Yeah. She she needed that love of the dog too. david: Yeah, I think I think she was gone gone if I didn't have Addie to say, Hey, you can't get rid of me because I have to take her back across the country and then I you know. So I just yeah, it was ⁓ we've been through a lot together, like everyone has that's in a long term relationship and ⁓ we've grown together in a lot of different ways and you know, s basically she sees the best in me and I hope I see the best in her and like the our whole goal is to be a little bit of a tailwind for the other person. Carrie: Mm. Yeah. You guys are so funny. I was reading, I think it was her happy birthday post or her birthday post. And I mean, I'm just gonna say it. There's young kids that listen to this, but this is a couple that you need to follow. ⁓ it was like david: Yeah. Carrie: Ha she woke up at 4 30 AM to a naked me or something like that. I was like, what is happening right now? So I had to read it a few times. I'm like, David. And I mean that's just how you two are. You kinda just put it out there. You can't have two kids without waking up to a naked me every now and then. david: Yeah. I mean, it gets back to authenticity though. I feel like I don't know. I mean, obviously we are not for everybody, and I validate that. I am barely for myself sometimes. But I think that like we are often way too scared about how we're perceived in like ways that if we actually dug down into it are tied to really weird crap societally, you know? And so the idea that people don't like Carrie: ⁓ my gosh, I love it. Yeah. Yeah. david: And and look, I respect when people don't curse, but like it's just a word. You know, you as long as it's intended well, like, you know, it's fine to draw that boundary, I get it. But like at the same time, it's not an ethical one, it's just your decision. ⁓ same goes for sex, politics, life. Like, everybody lives we all live this stuff, you know, and I understand there's places you want it and places you don't. So don't listen to the swap podcast unless you kinda want it. Carrie: Yeah. Sure. Mm-hmm. Yeah. It's true. Yeah. Yeah. I actually love it. I think it's hilarious and it's good and it's like Carrie, you don't have to be such a prude all the time. Let's go. Just say S E X instead of spelling it. david: Yeah. Well, no, I mean the thing is like that gets back to my point. That's almost always tied to things that like honestly, if we could turn back the clock, we probably would want to, you know? Like of like where the origins of that, not for you, but for like society, actually come from of why we aren't comfortable talking about some stuff. ⁓ so basically our idea is and in this gets for performance too. And I think it's one reason that when an athlete does resonate with us, it works, is because our idea is that whatever's in your head doesn't need to stay there. Carrie: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Sure. Yeah. Mm-hmm. david: Whatever that is. And it can be shameful. Like I I don't care. Like I mean, everybody who knows me knows I am the friend that you tell your deepest, darkest secrets to and the thoughts that you would never share publicly, even on a podcast like ours. Because like I'll just be like, fuck yeah, let's go. I I don't care that there's seven bodies in your basement. I kind of get it. ⁓ But that I mean, basically we're all walking around with brains that are full of stuff that is challenging. I mean, even for like, you know, you think about me, like, my whole thing is. Carrie: Yeah. david: being fulfilled and you're enough no matter what and results don't matter. But like I got a shot at the Western States 100 last year and I had a panic attack at mile 62 of the race thinking I was going to die. And you know why? It's because I didn't actually go to therapy like I told everybody else to and talk through a traumatic bike accident I had had the year before and how I was incorporate. So like long story short, I learned myself too that like Carrie: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Sure. Yeah. Right. david: Just talk about those things. It's so it's so nice sometimes to just understand you're not alone. And like as humans, the main thing I think we want to feel is like that we're not alone. Because like literally anybody listen to this, whatever your thing is, I don't care what it is. I don't like you are not alone. There are other people listening to this podcast right now that are right there with you. And if you can just like understand that, it's unburdens you. Carrie: Exactly. Yeah. Yeah, you did have a tri I mean you had you really have had ups and downs, you guys. Your your bike accident was horrific, and then you came back and then planner and like all the things. ⁓ I love everything about what you two stand for. ⁓ before I let you go, we have a couple more things we gotta do. We gotta talk about this world record in the mile that Josh Kerr said. I wanna hear your thoughts on it. I just saw his splits, and it is so unbelievably consistent. All four laps, they were in like point one. david: Yeah. Mm, mm-hmm. Carrie: Point five, point four of each other. Like it was just amazing. So I wanna hear that. ⁓ Josh Kerr ran three forty two sixty six. The you know, time to beat was Al Garouge's from nineteen ninety nine. Thoughts on it? Go. david: Okay, first controversial thought, I mean, you know, letting it all out of my brain, is records from the late nineties and early two thousands or before, it's like those have often been thought to be unbeatable for not to accuse any individual athlete that hasn't been caught, but like, you know, the EPO era of the sport was scary and terrible. And I think the fact that someone like Josh Kerr is beating it, and not obviously I don't know anything about him individually, but you're seeing that across endurance sports. So to broaden it out. Carrie: Mm-hmm. Yep. Mm-hmm. david: In cycling, you're seeing power numbers that would have been unthinkable three or four years ago, let alone you know twenty years ago, when everybody was cheating in cycling like Lance Armstrong. ⁓ you're seeing that in trail ultr running, ultra running. And now when we mention athletes on coaching, like, you know, they're doing times that would be truly unthinkable not that long ago. But the entire sport is moving like that. And I think, you know, we're always looking for explanations. And the simplest one is Carrie: Right. david: the way training is fueled now is allowing athletes to adapt that it in ways that excels when people were doing like really illicit, dangerous things and cheating ⁓ in the old days. And it's excredibly exciting because if you fuel your body, like I gotta get this in there at some point. If you fuel your body when you're training and when you're recovering and take in your carbs and do all of that, the way the body rewards you is truly insane. The way that like The we we like to frame it as running as a power sport. And if you view your trajectory over longer-term time horizons, the amount that power can increase is wild. But that only happens. Power only expresses itself in abundance. And we're seeing that now across all sports, that like as soon as you stop playing the game of trying to optimize body weight and think about all of these like fasted training and all of that, you are seeing athletes do things that do not compute. Based on past models of training theory. And so Josh Kerr, you know, he represents someone that is doing like everything to try to get better. I'm sure he's taking in sodium bicarbonate and doing all the other little things that are becoming a part of sport. But then also put his goal on the table last year when it seemed almost unthinkable. And then now he's just talks about consistency as a superpower, which, you know, it's that plus insane genetics and all the other good stuff. But the idea being like, Carrie: Yes. It is. Mm-hmm. david: What an aspirational person in accomplishment to like, look, you can just put your goals out there, like, you know, that you can just say the thing that you're wanna do. You don't have to keep that in your head either. Carrie: It is so cool to see and he really like contributes everything to his team. It's not just him that's out there running those four laps. He really talks about his his wife who does PT, his nutritionist, his like chef, his his cameraman. Like all these things. He's like saying it all helped him have this goal and then it it came to fruition. david: Yeah, it's another reason to put yourself out there because, you know, you do that and like I think sometimes, especially in the social media age, when people put themselves out there and you know, if you ever look at the comments, you're gonna see the normal things you see on the internet of just like a bunch of weird stuff. and I think people see that and sometimes they get scared of it because they're like, ⁓ well, if you do it, you're gonna get this. And like I, you know, I got to experience this all as an athlete, which is actually quite interesting because, you know, I got such strange Carrie: Sure. david: messages and emails and things when I did. And I think people saw that and are like, ⁓ qua you know, the haters are out there. I'm like, look, for every hater, there are like a hundred, a thousand people that are just like, wow, it is so cool that someone's out there living their lives and and you know being vulnerable. Like vulnerability is the ultimate power. And so you know if you're out there listening to this, like I don't care if your goal is to, you know, finish your first marathon in 12 hours or whatever. Carrie: That's right. david: It's okay to just put your biggest dream on the table because when you do, that vulnerability will bring people in and then those people will be your tailwind to accomplish the thing. ⁓ or to not accomplish the thing and have a support system on the other side, or just to motivate people to understand that there's nothing to fear with like actually being, you know, authentic as an athlete. And so I don't know, I I love what he did because there was a huge probability. I mean, like if we went back and now that he did it, it's like, ⁓ everybody's like, ⁓ of course that was gonna happen. But Carrie: Mm. david: I mean, I would have put that chance at twenty percent myself, just guessing of it happening. I'm like, w that's everything, right? Like because you know, the more we can see models of people that are just willing to wear it on their sleeve, I think the more we're all willing to try scary things. Carrie: Hmm. Yeah. Yeah, I love it. I mean He is a good guy. He he can talk a big game and he can he can kind of go back and forth with Jakob or whoever. But he is a nice man. And that is what is so fun. Like I've gotten to talk to him on the side of the track and you know he's focused. He's dialed in. He wants to do these things, but he is a really, really cool guy. So I hope one day you get to like hang out with him and and being a Brooks guy, you have some Brooks athletes. I'm sure you'll get to cross paths for sure. david: Let's go. ⁓ that's cool. Yeah. We call it we call it I mean I I don't know if this is like a really good term, but over dinner last night, we were having dinner with an Olympian, ⁓ that I don't coach, ⁓ but maybe ⁓ eventually. and the we were calling it ki kind killers in that you know, kindness is everything, but every one of these athletes has that thing, right? Like and and so saying killer is obviously ex excessive. Carrie: Okay. ⁓ Mm-hmm. david: But like within the arena, you are allowed to play a little bit of a character. You are allowed to bring out that part of yourself. I I think you have to. I don't I don't think you're ever not seeing it. And so I think another toxic thing that we sometimes elevate is humility as a virtue in and of itself. I'm like, look, humility's fine, but like if we're elevating humility, we're essentially telling people not to be their full selves. It's like, yes, that that element to understand you are not everything, you are not the center of the universe, that is key. Otherwise you're like a narcissistic asshole. But Carrie: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah. david: Like everyone that you that every one of your heroes is not humble in some ways. And that's beautiful. That's beautiful. That's that's awesome. That's we're all gonna die. So put yourself out there and like be like celebrate your own self like you would celebrate your friends. Like I think that that's that's kind of at the core of what I'm trying to bring to the sport in general is like celebration doesn't just mean that you put it outward. It it has to go inward first. Carrie: For sure. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah, I agree. Well, I'm gonna do my my quick run dot rapid fire questions, but listen, I wanna have you back on the show because we just barely scratched. I I I mean, I gotta know all the things, so I'm gonna get you back on when you have some time. I know you're getting ready for lots of fall marathons with your athletes and things like that. So I know you're a busy guy, but here we go. david: Yeah. ⁓ that sounds so good. Well, I I'm gonna take people behind the scenes. You messaged me yesterday, I think, and I was like, I'm on whenever you have time. So literally, you don't no no no what I'm saying is what I'm saying is that shows how much you are my hero. This is like truly like awe-inspiring to me. So with that in mind, I'm gonna actually take you up on that. I'm gonna message you back, be like, Look, you said you're gonna have me on, let's do it. Carrie: No I don't. You were so kind. It was awesome. Haha Yes! Okay, we will hold you to it. Alright, so rapid fire, here we go. On the football field, Hail Marys or handoffs? You love those, huh? Okay. What position did you play? Did you tell me? I forgot. david: ⁓ Hail Mary's. Shoot your shot. Yeah, I mean Played like si I was going to college to play defensive back. Carrie: Okay, okay. Mid race P B and Js or Snickers, old school style. david: ⁓ Snickers for sure. Candy. If you're gonna have to do that, I've I mean I'm a gel guy, but ⁓ you know, candy is the closest thing to gels. Carrie: Ha ha figurato. Okay. Mile repeats or long tempos. david: Mile repeats for sure. I think long tempos generally will require athletes to run too hard, will start to activate, you know, like type two fibers and generally are not helpful unless they're bringing together past elements of fitness developed through things like mile repeats. Carrie: Okay. ⁓ I know you are both, so half tights or split shorts? I ask everyone this. david: Split shorts, yeah. I mean, I tried to be a half tights guy at one point and like that's a place where my my humility came out pretty quick. So ⁓ yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. ⁓ yeah, I've been I I I I think it I think I got lucky. I I had one incident of like a a little bit of an anxiety attack last year and crosswinds, but other than that, I I haven't really had issues and I think the biggest thing is I was knocked out the whole time for ⁓ Carrie: ⁓ but obviously on the bike you can have you gotten back on the bike, David? Do you get back on the road bike? Okay. Good for you. david: the bike accident in twenty twenty four. So I feel like my brain just didn't process it like I would have ⁓ anticipated for like being around cars. Carrie: Okay. Yeah, it's wild. Okay. Dinner out and dancing with your wife or pizza and a movie at home with your wife. david: ⁓ pizza in a movie at home. The and the the hard part there is like I'm pretty bad at dancing. I mean, I'm really bad at dancing. Like, we have kids now, and so our three-year-old Leo really likes dance parties. And even when we're dancing with Leo to like Paw Patrol or whatever, I'm like, man, this is embarrassing. I am so bad at this. And I I understand, and that's what I would say to people too, but then I'm like. Carrie: Yeah. Mm-hmm. No, you gotta keep dancing. You have to keep dancing. It's the best. david: Maybe they haven't seen me dance. And w one time in college, one time in college before I met Megan, I went to a Halloween party and I I went with this woman who's older than me and ⁓ th things seemed like they might have been promising for all I knew. And then yeah, I was like, ⁓ you know what, I'm gonna dance because this seems promising. And yeah, she left with somebody else, so And honestly, like I'm I respect that. I'm like you Carrie: Huh? ⁓ huh. Ha ha. ⁓ She was not having that. ⁓ david: This w this is what this is what animals used to do in nature, right? This is what peacocks are doing. This is what the like birds are doing. And I'm like, look, evolutionarily you made the right decision when you saw me dance. Carrie: ⁓ yeah, they're doing the dance. I can't wait to see you dance. We are going dancing sometime. Okay, last one. Would you rather have carbon-plated shoes or bicarb? If you could only pick one. Okay. Sorry. david: Yeah. Yeah, I mean you gotta say carbon plated shoes. That's that's cruel and mean of you to do. ⁓ I I really resent you. But yeah, no, I'd go carbon plated. I the the way the shoes have changed training theory is way more, way more than anything. so you know, I feel like essentially everything we're seeing in performance and running is a carb signal mixed with a shoe signal, and then everything else supports the adaptation that comes from those things. So like bicarb and Carrie: Yeah. Mm-hmm. Okay. david: You know, Nomeo and and all the other advanced stuff that we've we're getting on board now. Like essentially the shoes allow careers to be extended, allows athletes to absorb sessions they never could before. and I really am sorry that you spent s s your parts of your career without these shoes because ⁓ I mean Carrie: None. I had no shoes. I have was running and nothing. david: Yeah, I'm so sorry. I'm so sorry. Because like I it's interesting because like I got to experience it like a little bit slightly later on. But the interesting part is because I was coming from a football background, my my personal talent took a really long time to fully express. Like, I mean, I didn't have my international breakthroughs till I was 36 years old. ⁓ and that whole time I was working my ass off, right? ⁓ but because my body had to change so much over time, it took a really long time. And thankfully, as I started to get Carrie: Uh-huh. Sure. Mm-hmm. david: better and get more endurance, then the shoes came on and allowed me to do things that because I had already, you know, I I wasn't a spring chicken anymore and probably would have had trouble absorbing it otherwise. So yeah, I mean the shoes are just insane. And and from what I understand, the next generation led by, you know, the Puma R3 came in and that shoe is leaps and bounds above some of the with some same generation shoes. And that has required then an evolutionary leap from the other companies. Because now everybody's trying to mimic the design characteristics of that shoe where they used, you know, computer pro programs essentially to design it. And I bet w within the next I bet for twenty twenty eight we see a shoe revolution that is s truly mind blowing. That like it's gonna be crazy. Carrie: ⁓ I gotta get a pair. I'm I'm going that way, not going that way. david: I actually think what they should what they should do. Yeah. What I think they should do, my serious like I think they should ban prototypes and races because I think what we're gonna end up seeing is that in 2028 for the trials and stuff, prototypes are everywhere. ⁓ for the be in all of these companies are essentially having their Puma R four version of a shoe. ⁓ I hate that. I'm like just and people can't buy it. It shouldn't be allowed to be worn in championship racing. Carrie: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I mean that's what happened, right? In twenty six was it twenty sixteen. So it's still happening, right. david: Yeah, but it's still happening. I mean, that's the like, you know, because they they reversed some of the rules in 2020. So they initially said that it had to be on the market, and now it's like, ⁓ it has to be approved, but it doesn't have to be on the market for a substanti some amount of time. And so this is like, I'm rarely an old man yelling at clouds. I'm usually like I pride myself in being like, every new idea is a good one. I want to know my Gen Z slang. I don't want to be the old guy. Sometimes like the other day I was talking to Amanda Vestry and Carrie: I know, I know. Ha ha ha. david: She said something and sh I was like, Man, I am so old. I don't I don't know what this means. But when does that when did that happen? I I used to be too way too young to be in the room. I used to hide my birthday being like, I don't want people to know what age I am. ⁓ because like it might make them think that I I'm not s like r in ⁓ like ready to be in this position yet. So ⁓ yeah, but like the one place that I am a little bit pushing back is I love the way shoes are developing. I just think we need to be more Carrie: Listen, I'm a lot older than you. I know. Yeah. david: We have need to have more control over what athletes are allowed to wear when like careers are on the line. Otherwise, like some of the companies might game that system. Like it's just a very easy game theory equation where like there is a certain way to get your athletes to have, you know, a 1% advantage if you trust your tech. Carrie: Agreed. For sure. I agree. I mean, let's just make it all equal so everyone can just get out there and show us who's who's the best. I love that. So david: Yeah, that being said, you can pry my bicarb from my cold dead hands. Carrie: Ha ha ha I haven't tried that either. I gotta get it going, but I know I just I'm not doing anything important anymore. david: What? What? Come on. ⁓ no, you got to. You know, you got to the the reason, the reason, is it makes things feel better. So like I think one of the pushbacks, and I know you have to go, so I'm just like rambling on, but one of the pushbacks against a lot of advanced elements of training tech. So here we're not talking training theory, but training tech is just saying like, ⁓ we didn't we don't need that, you know, like I'm not going for whatever time. And my whole point is look, this isn't about Carrie: No, I love it. david: times even. This is about making running have ⁓ making runners have that access to the beautiful moments of transcendence that the sport can give, which sometimes involve going fast and sometimes don't. And so if we think about human physiology as this mystery that we're trying to solve, every time we get a little bit closer to a solution, we are also giving people way more of those feelings and experiences, which is why like our biggest principle here is that like Every athlete is an elite athlete. Like, you know, we we don't just coach pros. We also have coached, you know, we coach people that do run walk or whatever. And we are trying to get them to think that same way because once you do, you open yourself up to all the possibilities you get with your body, you know, with this one vessel that you have a chance to experience life with. So, you know, that that's a convoluted way of saying something like bicarb at, you know, low doses or whatever occasionally can just help someone feel more. Carrie: Mm-hmm. Okay. david: like embodied as a person in a way that like every runner understands. But like I think sometimes people think it's random and happens by chance when in reality it is all a science equation that we are trying to solve individually. And some people are just like more incentivized to solve it at the top level because they make money from it. But like for every one of us, solving it's one really, really freaking fun, and two can give you a lot of really special moments. Carrie: All right, David, I'll get the bicarb and I'll get the shoes on. yeah, you sold it. Aww. david: Yes Yes. ⁓ my god, well the shoes. I don't care about the bicarb. You gotta get the shoes. Like I I've already decided if like I'm I'm hopeful ho hopeful that like eventually I'll be one of those athletes that gets like ⁓ you know emeritus clause on a shoe contract or something. And when I do that, when I'm like I'm just only gonna be running in super shoes ⁓ Carrie: I I got some, I got some. Well, I have been th I I do wanna give Adidas a big shout out. They have taken care of me for so long. They'll send me a lot of things. And they did just send me some new super shoes that I haven't tried yet. So I ⁓ no ⁓ I gotta go look at the name of them. I I'm just not the pro wait no. S the tsun I wanna say tsunami. It's not tsunami. What is it? david: The Pro Four Pro Four? Okay. ⁓ no. I'm I'm currently wearing Here am I. So I wore Adidas for all my big races. ⁓ this is not a super shoe. This is a gross I call it the the Adidas dad shoe. ⁓ but like it's the ⁓ hyper boost edge. so in other words, I'm a I I think Adidas still makes the best foam. Like you just I love their foam so much. So we'll give Adidas a plug. Carrie: Yeah. Is that the Eva? ⁓ okay. I think I have that. Yeah. Yeah. No, but I I do have the Adidas like Tukasami or something like that. And you know what I'm talking about? They're one of the they're carbon plated shoes. So I'm gonna try those. ⁓ sorry Adidas, I'm screwing up the name, but you know what I mean. david: Okay. Well no, you want you want a platform that's at least that big. And the the to give me sent you want something that just makes it so that you wouldn't have to think about the ground for years. Now get the and then the Adios Pro Four is a great, great shoe. It's very, very soft, interestingly, like underfoot. ⁓ but it's definitely worth it. I'm actually if I do come back for races this year, I've just decided Carrie: Huh! Okay, okay, I'll go see what I have. Pretty sure I have it. Okay. Cool. Okay. david: I'm gonna start sending it in road super shoes in trail races because we only get one life. I shouldn't be spending it in trail shoes. Carrie: Yeah. Well let's go. Let's get you hooked up with the three stripes. We can do that. david: And then I'm gonna dance. No, I'm actually not gonna do that. Carrie: We are for sure dancing. So next time I see you, maybe Chicago, New York, wherever it is, we'll see you there and we'll be dancing. david: Yeah. I was just heartbroken that you weren't announcing the eight K. I like yeah, it's sad. I know I don't think they had a they didn't have a live stream at all. Carrie: Didn't do that one. But I think I actually couldn't do that one. Yeah, I think they ended up not having it, but I couldn't do that weekend, so but david: Yeah. But I just your your announcing is always so good and the way you bring so much ⁓ you know, light to the the women's fields and the athletes' stories. It's always interesting for me because like, you know, I don't know a lot of the stories of the athletes that are out there and I get to hear them from you. And so thank you because I think, you know, some of the coolest and most wonderful people are in this sport and like like I said, every single one of those athletes has had so many ego deaths that they're like so interesting when you get to know them, right? And like you get to sh you share that with the world. So thank you. Carrie: Hmm, I try. I try my best, but you keep getting after it. And thank you for your time. It was so fun that you were like, I can talk tomorrow or the next day. I was like, yes, let's go. So it's perfect. I appreciate you. And tell that lovely wife of yours and those cute little boys hi from someone they don't know. But you know, I appreciate you posting about them. david: Yeah. That's Well, Ollie, our eighteen month old. He's not yet walking, which is, you know, obviously a little tough. But he's delightful. Yeah, and ⁓ so my message to you and everybody else is what he will not stop saying now, almost compulsively, is I love you. So love you guys. Thank you for having me on. Carrie: He'll run. He'll he'll go from zero to sixty in a second. You'll be there.