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When Harry Met Sally with Naomi Ekperigin · The Bechdel Cast

• 0:00
  Speaker 1: On the Beck Dol Cast. The questions asked if movies
• 0:03
  Speaker 1: have women in them, are all their discussions just boyfriends
• 0:07
  Speaker 1: and husbands, or do they have individualism? The patriarchy? Zef
• 0:11
  Speaker 1: invest start changing it with the Beck Del Cast. Hello
• 0:16
  Speaker 1: and welcome to the Beck Dol Cast. My name is
• 0:20
  Speaker 1: Caitlin Jamie, and we are here to talk about movies
• 0:25
  Speaker 1: and how women are portrayed in movies per usual. As
• 0:30
  Speaker 1: per usual, we are inspired, were so inspired by the
• 0:35
  Speaker 1: Bechdel test, which requires that a movie has two women,
• 0:39
  Speaker 1: they have to have names, they have to have a conversation.
• 0:41
  Speaker 1: Their conversation has to be about something other than a man.
• 0:45
  Speaker 1: Does it ever happen? Almost never. We tried. We tried
• 0:49
  Speaker 1: to crunch the numbers of episodes we've done so far,
• 0:51
  Speaker 1: not too long ago, and we get too frustrated, and
• 0:55
  Speaker 1: especially because so many of them I couldn't even remember. Forthcoming. Yeah,
• 1:01
  Speaker 1: we should shell out some hot stats. Love a love
• 1:05
  Speaker 1: a good chart, Give me a graph, give me the data,
• 1:09
  Speaker 1: give me the meta data. So this is about to
• 1:15
  Speaker 1: be an interesting episode. It's my fault because don't worry.
• 1:19
  Speaker 1: I'm not here to shame you. Don't shame yourself. I
• 1:22
  Speaker 1: am but why I was born. We were recording this
• 1:27
  Speaker 1: intro post the recording of the episode post certainly, so
• 1:35
  Speaker 1: we're recording this intro post recording of the episode because
• 1:39
  Speaker 1: we had a situation, yeah, where Jamie had to be
• 1:44
  Speaker 1: somewhere else that I have a bunch of pictures of
• 1:47
  Speaker 1: me dancing with a redheaded child, honestly evidence of how
• 1:51
  Speaker 1: I spent my time. So we had to record without you.
• 1:55
  Speaker 1: So the episode you were about to hear is just
• 1:57
  Speaker 1: a hero's journey, right. It's me Caitlin, and it's our guest.
• 2:03
  Speaker 1: But we still have things to say. You and I.
• 2:07
  Speaker 1: We have unfinished. We have unfinished. So yeah, Jamie and
• 2:11
  Speaker 1: I will check back in towards the end, but for now,
• 2:13
  Speaker 1: enjoy this episode with Caitlin. And she has a Comedy
• 2:18
  Speaker 1: Central half hour. She's been on Late Night with Seth Myers.
• 2:21
  Speaker 1: She was a writer for a broad City and currently
• 2:24
  Speaker 1: writes on Great News. Naomiic Paragan, Hi, thank you so
• 2:31
  Speaker 1: much for being here. Yeah, so we're pretending right now
• 2:36
  Speaker 1: as though Jamie's here. She's not surprised. Why did you
• 2:40
  Speaker 1: go blow up the spot? Because I was like totally no,
• 2:44
  Speaker 1: But then people would notice because she is not chiming in.
• 2:49
  Speaker 1: People will be like, well, why isn't Jamie saying anything?
• 2:52
  Speaker 1: What if it was just like, oh, we tied her up,
• 2:54
  Speaker 1: but we wanted her to be here. Would we do
• 2:59
  Speaker 1: tie people up? It's only the men guests we have
• 3:01
  Speaker 1: on the show, because, of course, you know, we're here
• 3:05
  Speaker 1: to talk about women in movies. If a man dares
• 3:09
  Speaker 1: to enter our podcast, premises they can, but they have
• 3:14
  Speaker 1: to pay a price, and we do have to tie
• 3:15
  Speaker 1: them up. I do notice that your producer is a submissive,
• 3:18
  Speaker 1: so that does make a lot of sense, you know.
• 3:21
  Speaker 1: Shout out to Aristotle, the most wonderful man in the world.
• 3:23
  Speaker 1: He's so sweet and he's the greatest. He's sitting blushing
• 3:28
  Speaker 1: in the corner, shaking his head like a real power Battom,
• 3:32
  Speaker 1: there we go. Oh man, anyway, thank you so much
• 3:37
  Speaker 1: for being here. We're here to talk about the movie
• 3:41
  Speaker 1: When Harry met Sally. Yes, so you said, this is
• 3:45
  Speaker 1: a movie you've seen dozens of times, a bunch of times,
• 3:49
  Speaker 1: so many own it on DVD, love it nice. When
• 3:52
  Speaker 1: did you first see it? I was probably in eighth
• 3:56
  Speaker 1: or ninth grade. I saw it, so, you know, like
• 4:00
  Speaker 1: I was like, I feel like I just found I
• 4:03
  Speaker 1: need to Franco. I was having a lot of feelings.
• 4:05
  Speaker 1: I was like a very naturally romantic child, you know,
• 4:09
  Speaker 1: really into all the bron Jay sisters and just like
• 4:12
  Speaker 1: longing as a concept. Emily, We've got Charlotte, Charlotte, We've
• 4:19
  Speaker 1: got Samantha, We've got carry a sorry wrong group of women.
• 4:26
  Speaker 1: We've got Raphael, We've got Michaelendelo. Oh no, that's not
• 4:29
  Speaker 1: even women or humans. Fuck anyway, So you saw it
• 4:35
  Speaker 1: early on, and you've seen it is one of your
• 4:37
  Speaker 1: favorite movies. It's definitely like a comfort movie, you know.
• 4:39
  Speaker 1: I think as I've gotten older, of course it is dated.
• 4:43
  Speaker 1: You know, it feels a little cheesy, but I really
• 4:45
  Speaker 1: love it. What I also love you know, I'm from
• 4:46
  Speaker 1: New York and it's a New York movie. You know,
• 4:48
  Speaker 1: the settings are really shoot New York really well, and
• 4:51
  Speaker 1: it's so pretty and stuff like that, you know, when
• 4:53
  Speaker 1: it kind of captures New York on all four seasons,
• 4:55
  Speaker 1: like the lovely Moan of Them in the Fall and
• 4:57
  Speaker 1: fucking Central Park and it's just like Foliage, Hello, the
• 5:03
  Speaker 1: Foliage alone, The Follige alone is worth rewinding. Yeah, So
• 5:09
  Speaker 1: I think I saw this movie for the first time,
• 5:11
  Speaker 1: probably in college. I was a bit older when I
• 5:15
  Speaker 1: saw most of the movies I saw because surprised. I
• 5:18
  Speaker 1: went to film school, and then I went and got
• 5:21
  Speaker 1: a master's degree in screenwriting from Boston University. Crag, I
• 5:27
  Speaker 1: love it. I almost want to get I was going
• 5:28
  Speaker 1: to do a PhD in film studies. I majored in
• 5:30
  Speaker 1: film in English and my thesis was a screenplay. But
• 5:34
  Speaker 1: then yeah, and then I was like, oh, maybe I'll
• 5:37
  Speaker 1: be like a professor or like, you know, like an academic,
• 5:40
  Speaker 1: you know, and really like race and fail and get
• 5:42
  Speaker 1: really gritty. And then like after a couple of years
• 5:44
  Speaker 1: of college, I was like, I don't want to go
• 5:45
  Speaker 1: back to homework. And there goes that life. Joe, Hey,
• 5:49
  Speaker 1: there's still time girl plays. I am too old to
• 5:54
  Speaker 1: be listening to anybody, true, I mean no, what did
• 5:57
  Speaker 1: I say? I just feel like I would just reach
• 5:59
  Speaker 1: the age like you want me to do? What I mean? Why? Exactly?
• 6:02
  Speaker 1: I have cats to feed. You know? What I mean
• 6:04
  Speaker 1: is you don't have to listen to anyone. You're not
• 6:07
  Speaker 1: too old to do anything, Thank you so much. That's wait,
• 6:10
  Speaker 1: do you have cats? I do have two cat children.
• 6:12
  Speaker 1: Oh my god, I just flew them here. Just oh
• 6:15
  Speaker 1: my god, you should come by. We just flew them
• 6:17
  Speaker 1: here from New York. It was the first time with
• 6:18
  Speaker 1: them in a plane. Who it was very stressful that
• 6:21
  Speaker 1: they made it through. I would like to remind everyone
• 6:23
  Speaker 1: that cats do have eight nipples and they can see ghosts,
• 6:28
  Speaker 1: as we learned from the movie Ghost. Do they have eight?
• 6:33
  Speaker 1: I mean, do boys have eight? I have male cats
• 6:38
  Speaker 1: and I'm never feeling you will never felt eight. Count
• 6:41
  Speaker 1: them there there. They might not be as prominent. They're not.
• 6:45
  Speaker 1: But are you maybe you only seeing pregnant cats? No?
• 6:48
  Speaker 1: I mean, I'm not like investigating every cat. But if
• 6:52
  Speaker 1: you google how many nipples does a cat have? The
• 6:55
  Speaker 1: answers eight with both men and women cats, men and women,
• 7:00
  Speaker 1: men and women, game male and male cats, they all
• 7:04
  Speaker 1: have eight nips, even the boycats, even the males. Wow.
• 7:08
  Speaker 1: So this has been another episode of Facts, Cat Facts
• 7:13
  Speaker 1: with Caitlin. Anyway, So let's talk about the movie. So
• 7:18
  Speaker 1: you went to film schooling or you major film in English, right,
• 7:22
  Speaker 1: So you're a great guest to have on you know
• 7:24
  Speaker 1: all about all the stuff. Um, I'll go into my recap.
• 7:31
  Speaker 1: When Harry met Sally is the story of Harry and Sally.
• 7:35
  Speaker 1: They meet on a drive a road trip from Chicago
• 7:39
  Speaker 1: to New York when they're I think I've both graduated
• 7:43
  Speaker 1: college and they don't like each other. Their personalities just
• 7:47
  Speaker 1: like don't mesh very well. In their trip, they have
• 7:51
  Speaker 1: a discussion. Harry's like, men and women can't be friends
• 7:55
  Speaker 1: because the sex always gets in the way. Men are
• 7:57
  Speaker 1: always gonna want to fuck no woman, even if he
• 8:00
  Speaker 1: doesn't think she's hot, he's still gonna want to fucker.
• 8:03
  Speaker 1: And she's like, well that's pish posh, and well that's
• 8:07
  Speaker 1: pitch posh. Correct. They had that conversation and he kind
• 8:12
  Speaker 1: of He's like, well, you're attractive. She's like, you can't
• 8:14
  Speaker 1: come on to me. I'm uptight and I'm delicate and
• 8:18
  Speaker 1: I like to spend forty minutes ordering apple pie, which,
• 8:22
  Speaker 1: by the way, what monster orders strawberry ice cream on
• 8:27
  Speaker 1: apple pie pie. I know she's disgusting, it's disgusting, truly awful,
• 8:34
  Speaker 1: truly awful. I'm with you on that. So he's like, oh, man,
• 8:37
  Speaker 1: you're you're kind of cute, and she's like, you're dating
• 8:40
  Speaker 1: my friend. You can't come on to me. And then
• 8:41
  Speaker 1: they had the whole discussion where men and women can't
• 8:44
  Speaker 1: be friends, and then they kind of part ways. Can
• 8:47
  Speaker 1: we fast forward? Fast forward five years? Five years they
• 8:50
  Speaker 1: meet again on an airplane. She's got a new guy.
• 8:53
  Speaker 1: He's like supposed to be eighties hot, but it's pretty basics,
• 8:59
  Speaker 1: like a very deep part and it's like the eighties
• 9:01
  Speaker 1: there are certain guys where was like, did you do
• 9:03
  Speaker 1: too much cocaine? Like you could be four to you
• 9:05
  Speaker 1: could be twenty two. And he's kind of in that world,
• 9:07
  Speaker 1: you know what I mean. But he's supposed to be
• 9:09
  Speaker 1: the perfect guy. His name is Joe, Joe these one
• 9:13
  Speaker 1: syllable names. No thanks Joe anyway, So stands Caitlin coming
• 9:20
  Speaker 1: out here. So they reconnect on an airplane and they
• 9:23
  Speaker 1: have the conversation again ken men and women be friends
• 9:27
  Speaker 1: because at this point they're now in relationships both of them,
• 9:29
  Speaker 1: and maybe we can. And then I'm like, I don't know,
• 9:33
  Speaker 1: And then they part ways again, and then flash forward
• 9:37
  Speaker 1: another five years. They meet up again. I'm blinking on where.
• 9:41
  Speaker 1: They meet at a bookstore. Yes, they're in the bookstore.
• 9:44
  Speaker 1: He's now going through a divorce. She's still with the
• 9:48
  Speaker 1: guy with the blond side prod. She has broken up
• 9:50
  Speaker 1: with him as well. They broke and broke up. Oh right,
• 9:53
  Speaker 1: because then they start okay, now, yes they Right now
• 9:55
  Speaker 1: they're both saying like, let's be friends. We both have
• 9:57
  Speaker 1: broken hearts that are both feeling bad for ourselves, so
• 10:00
  Speaker 1: let's be friends. Alongside all of this, you have Debbie Reynolds.
• 10:07
  Speaker 1: No that's not her name. Harry Fisher, thank you so
• 10:10
  Speaker 1: much for that. I was literally thinking Carrie Fisher, and
• 10:13
  Speaker 1: then I was like, that's wrong. I love this movie
• 10:16
  Speaker 1: and you probably don't think so, based on the bed
• 10:18
  Speaker 1: that I can't remember anyone's names because all I all
• 10:20
  Speaker 1: I think of is like short hair girl, because it's
• 10:22
  Speaker 1: like for me, I don't know, I I think I'm
• 10:24
  Speaker 1: thirteen in my mind whenever I watched that movie, and
• 10:26
  Speaker 1: it doesn't carry Fisher. Her character's name is Marie. Marie
• 10:29
  Speaker 1: is like again, she's kind of like a runner along
• 10:32
  Speaker 1: the whole movie, Like she's thirsty. She's with this married
• 10:34
  Speaker 1: man that she cannot let go of. So Sally and
• 10:37
  Speaker 1: Marie are in the bookstore. They spot Harry and like,
• 10:40
  Speaker 1: I love the world in which Billy crystals like hot,
• 10:43
  Speaker 1: you know, so like I love Marie's Like, oh, who's
• 10:46
  Speaker 1: he like by the self help books and it's like, Crystal,
• 10:51
  Speaker 1: did you write this for yourself? But they reconnect in
• 10:55
  Speaker 1: the bookstore and then they are like, maybe it's time
• 10:57
  Speaker 1: that we can be friends. And they developed this close bond.
• 11:02
  Speaker 1: It's a very tender bond. I'm like, I'm obsessed with
• 11:05
  Speaker 1: their bond. It's a lot of just like long shots
• 11:08
  Speaker 1: of them walking through New York and he's basically telling
• 11:11
  Speaker 1: her to loosen up, and she's telling him to have
• 11:13
  Speaker 1: emotions and you're just like a Christmas tree, Christmas tree shop.
• 11:19
  Speaker 1: I love it, do you know? I know that tree shop?
• 11:22
  Speaker 1: And right next to it was a pet store. It
• 11:23
  Speaker 1: was like the plant shed and the pet shed. And
• 11:25
  Speaker 1: I would always go to the pet shed to pick
• 11:27
  Speaker 1: up gold feed or fish for my turtles. You've got
• 11:30
  Speaker 1: turtles back. This is back in my youth. It you know,
• 11:35
  Speaker 1: I'm a real turtle head. I'm glad to hear it.
• 11:41
  Speaker 1: Turtles don't have any nipples. Agree. I agree with that
• 11:45
  Speaker 1: scientific fact. I'm like the fact that you just like
• 11:48
  Speaker 1: I was like, I have cats and she's like, they
• 11:50
  Speaker 1: have eight nipples, and I was like, what are you
• 11:51
  Speaker 1: talking about? I want you to go home tonight. And
• 11:53
  Speaker 1: count your male cat. Will not do it, will not
• 11:56
  Speaker 1: do it. I cannot feel like I've only felt too
• 11:59
  Speaker 1: and that's all I need to feel well. For listeners
• 12:04
  Speaker 1: out there at home who have cats, male or female,
• 12:07
  Speaker 1: please count the nipples at us. Nipples play a prominent
• 12:12
  Speaker 1: role in this podcast because we rate every movie on
• 12:15
  Speaker 1: our nipple scale. Nipples we towards the end, okay, so
• 12:21
  Speaker 1: get ready for that, but until then, we have a
• 12:25
  Speaker 1: lot more important cat nipples to talk about. Just kidding,
• 12:29
  Speaker 1: we're talking about when Harry met Sally. So I'm still
• 12:32
  Speaker 1: halfway through this right, okay. So then so they're like friends.
• 12:37
  Speaker 1: He there's a big moment when Sally finds out the
• 12:40
  Speaker 1: Joe blonde side part is engaged. Yes, now their whole relationship.
• 12:45
  Speaker 1: He was like, I don't want to be married. Lie.
• 12:48
  Speaker 1: He then called her to tell her. He's like, I
• 12:50
  Speaker 1: started seeing someone else and we're getting married. Sally can't
• 12:54
  Speaker 1: even okay, she cannot even, she cannot even. What I
• 12:58
  Speaker 1: love is that she like listen to or Ashley dream Home.
• 13:01
  Speaker 1: It's like all you know, like like flower prints, and
• 13:04
  Speaker 1: even though she's been sobbing, her hair is perfectly coiled
• 13:07
  Speaker 1: and she calls Harry, because you know, they have a
• 13:10
  Speaker 1: lot of phone calls late at night. They're very they're
• 13:12
  Speaker 1: always watching Casablanca. Is it the only thing on TV
• 13:15
  Speaker 1: late at night? And when you're lonely and cancelate, you
• 13:19
  Speaker 1: turn on Casablanca. So she calls him to come over.
• 13:22
  Speaker 1: Am My running is like, this is your something you're
• 13:24
  Speaker 1: supposed to do, Like I'm a guest when he took
• 13:25
  Speaker 1: over the podcast, but it's because I'm like, let us
• 13:28
  Speaker 1: gets in a part because we're about to hit the
• 13:29
  Speaker 1: turn turn. So he comes over because she's like, I'm
• 13:34
  Speaker 1: Zoza Jo's getting married, throwing around tissues everywhere all willie nilly.
• 13:39
  Speaker 1: She's throwing around tissues, she's hiccuping, she can't even she
• 13:43
  Speaker 1: can't take anything, like the most beautiful crier I've ever seen.
• 13:48
  Speaker 1: And then, in her sadness, her loneliness, she doesn't for
• 13:52
  Speaker 1: a kiss. She goes in for a kiss, and Harry's
• 13:55
  Speaker 1: male thirst he accepts this kiss and they have the
• 13:59
  Speaker 1: set I've heard of it, are you familiar? I hear
• 14:03
  Speaker 1: about it every now and then, but I don't like
• 14:05
  Speaker 1: to get into details. So they have it the next morning.
• 14:08
  Speaker 1: Now it's two people who've been friends at this point
• 14:10
  Speaker 1: where like who've known each other for fifteen years, who've
• 14:12
  Speaker 1: been friends for years, you naturally assume that once you
• 14:15
  Speaker 1: engage in the coit is, it's going to be like
• 14:18
  Speaker 1: on like Donkey Kong, like we're about to be a thing. Now,
• 14:20
  Speaker 1: I don't Harry miss Sally. The next day he fucking
• 14:23
  Speaker 1: ghosts her Ala swazy, and it's like, I gotta go.
• 14:27
  Speaker 1: You're familiar with the concept of ghosting from the movie Ghost,
• 14:32
  Speaker 1: you know, when you disappear and then come back and
• 14:33
  Speaker 1: stalk someone, right, And so he like kind of like
• 14:36
  Speaker 1: not blows her off, but he really he treats her
• 14:39
  Speaker 1: like he treats it like a random like very withholding
• 14:42
  Speaker 1: that's your homegirl, y'all was sitting and watched Cassa Blanc
• 14:44
  Speaker 1: over the phone together And now you guys feel like
• 14:47
  Speaker 1: you don't know nobody. Now as this all happens, Thirsty
• 14:50
  Speaker 1: Marie has finally left the Merry Guy and is now
• 14:53
  Speaker 1: in a relationship with Harry's best friend. And so of
• 14:57
  Speaker 1: course Harry and Sally can't get rid of each other
• 14:59
  Speaker 1: their best ends or a couple, you know, So they
• 15:02
  Speaker 1: go to into they like meet up later to game
• 15:05
  Speaker 1: night they're well seeing new people. They're trying to act
• 15:07
  Speaker 1: like they don't care about the new people, but they
• 15:09
  Speaker 1: totally do. And then it is New Year's Eve. That's
• 15:14
  Speaker 1: when it really comes because basically he's been trying to
• 15:16
  Speaker 1: call her. There's a one ful montage of him just
• 15:18
  Speaker 1: constantly loving messages that she's not picking up because she's
• 15:20
  Speaker 1: like girl bye. Finally they're at this fancy New Year's
• 15:23
  Speaker 1: Eve party. She's dolled up in like a perfect eighties
• 15:27
  Speaker 1: like Emerald Green with a giant bow, like her best life,
• 15:31
  Speaker 1: and he's at home alone. And then finally one of
• 15:34
  Speaker 1: the greatest running scenes of any movie, he runs through
• 15:38
  Speaker 1: the streets of New York to get to this New
• 15:41
  Speaker 1: Year's Eve party and he finds her. He's like, why
• 15:44
  Speaker 1: did you come here here? And he's like, because when
• 15:46
  Speaker 1: you know you want to spend the rest of your
• 15:48
  Speaker 1: life with someone, you want the rest of your life
• 15:49
  Speaker 1: to start as soon as boss one of the best.
• 15:54
  Speaker 1: And then Meg Ryan does the lip quiver that is
• 15:58
  Speaker 1: just really her claim to fame in the and she's like,
• 16:02
  Speaker 1: this is why you, Harry. I can't stay mad at you. Hello.
• 16:07
  Speaker 1: Cut to them being married, because the second best part
• 16:10
  Speaker 1: of this movie is that the interstitials of old couples.
• 16:13
  Speaker 1: There's like these standalone interstitials of old couples who have
• 16:16
  Speaker 1: been together, you know, for years, like probably one two
• 16:19
  Speaker 1: minute vignette of them just talking about like how they
• 16:21
  Speaker 1: met or when they got married, and they're all like
• 16:23
  Speaker 1: old and hilarious and my mostly white but mostly why.
• 16:27
  Speaker 1: But then my favorite is the Asian couple where the
• 16:29
  Speaker 1: where the Asian lady doesn't say a word, right, she
• 16:32
  Speaker 1: does not speak sound. I almost don't even know if
• 16:34
  Speaker 1: she's paying attention. And he's telling this story being like
• 16:37
  Speaker 1: she was beautifult so I decided to marry her, and
• 16:39
  Speaker 1: she's just like I'll co sign that. So that's like
• 16:42
  Speaker 1: my favorite. So the end you see that they're married,
• 16:44
  Speaker 1: and so it's like really really tender, and it's like
• 16:46
  Speaker 1: all I ever wanted when I was little. And like Sally,
• 16:49
  Speaker 1: I'm a very difficult orderer. Oh are you? I would
• 16:53
  Speaker 1: never put ice cream and apple pie. But like, here's
• 16:55
  Speaker 1: my thing about restaurants. I considered a menu to be
• 16:59
  Speaker 1: a jumping off point for negotiations. Okay, I'm looking at
• 17:02
  Speaker 1: that menu. That's basically you telling me what's in the kitchen.
• 17:04
  Speaker 1: Huh okay. So most of the time to see what
• 17:07
  Speaker 1: you got, and I'm like, let's see how we can
• 17:08
  Speaker 1: juge it up. Let's say we can make it my thing.
• 17:11
  Speaker 1: I just am very difficult. So like when you know,
• 17:13
  Speaker 1: and I wonder sometimes if I got that from Sally,
• 17:15
  Speaker 1: maybe I wonder if I got from Marins. You're like,
• 17:17
  Speaker 1: she can do it? Why can't I? Why can't I?
• 17:20
  Speaker 1: And it's funny because get away I do have my
• 17:23
  Speaker 1: my hairy you know, my juwbu he did he does say,
• 17:25
  Speaker 1: He's like, it's cute the way you order, and I
• 17:28
  Speaker 1: was like, I did it. I found someone to brainwash.
• 17:30
  Speaker 1: I thought this was acceptable. But the thing is, I'm
• 17:33
  Speaker 1: really nice about it, Caitlin. When the server comes like
• 17:35
  Speaker 1: a hey girl, I'm about to be a pain and
• 17:37
  Speaker 1: ass I try to set it up so they're not
• 17:40
  Speaker 1: so angry at me. That's very considerate you. I want
• 17:43
  Speaker 1: to point out that in the scene where we first
• 17:45
  Speaker 1: see her ordering, when she does the Devil's work and
• 17:49
  Speaker 1: orders strawberry ice cream on an apple pie. Towards the
• 17:53
  Speaker 1: end of that scene, she's like doing the math to
• 17:55
  Speaker 1: figure out the tip and you find out that she's
• 17:57
  Speaker 1: only tipping really, this makes my share six ninety or
• 18:03
  Speaker 1: something like that, And it's like, uh, what, you were
• 18:06
  Speaker 1: a pain in the fucking asshole. You need to tip
• 18:09
  Speaker 1: at least twenty standard. But because she's so annoying about it,
• 18:17
  Speaker 1: she should have gone the extra mile. But she totally
• 18:22
  Speaker 1: cheaped out on that pre waitress. Well, one of the
• 18:26
  Speaker 1: few people in the whole movie that's said in New York,
• 18:31
  Speaker 1: I guess one of those fun versions of New York
• 18:34
  Speaker 1: where there's I guess only white people live here, But
• 18:36
  Speaker 1: there are a lot of people who live in that
• 18:38
  Speaker 1: version of New York true, like in real life, you know,
• 18:40
  Speaker 1: Like I went to private school in the Upper East
• 18:42
  Speaker 1: Side and it was like unreal, Like, oh, the only
• 18:44
  Speaker 1: brown person you know is you're nanny. That's weird. But
• 18:48
  Speaker 1: it's doable if you, like, don't leave Park Avenue, you
• 18:52
  Speaker 1: can make it work good for you. I used to
• 18:55
  Speaker 1: live in Spanish Harlem and was one of only a
• 18:59
  Speaker 1: few white people my neighborhood. So were you proud of yourself?
• 19:02
  Speaker 1: I wouldn't go so far as well. You have come
• 19:06
  Speaker 1: from Boston, right, I didn't grow up there. I grew
• 19:09
  Speaker 1: up in rural western Pennsylvania, which is a very White
• 19:13
  Speaker 1: clan country, right, kind of like the grand Wizard of
• 19:18
  Speaker 1: the clan sector. I don't know how it works. I
• 19:23
  Speaker 1: am proud to not know. I am proud of that.
• 19:27
  Speaker 1: But he lived in the next town over cool, so cool, yep,
• 19:33
  Speaker 1: and I was like, hey, maybe I shouldn't live here anymore.
• 19:35
  Speaker 1: And I got the funk out as soon as I could. Yeah, yeah, Katagata.
• 19:40
  Speaker 1: But yeah, so when Harry met Sally, Very White movie,
• 19:44
  Speaker 1: it's true. It's funny because again, looking back, I think
• 19:46
  Speaker 1: for me it was so eighties. It really exemplifies the
• 19:49
  Speaker 1: eighties to me, you know what I mean, between their
• 19:51
  Speaker 1: style and then like just that kind of romantic comedy
• 19:54
  Speaker 1: because really the way it's made, you know, it's I'm like, oh,
• 19:56
  Speaker 1: this could be a play, do you know what I mean?
• 19:58
  Speaker 1: Because it's really just a serious talking head series of conversations,
• 20:01
  Speaker 1: just a series of conversations against backdrops. And they do
• 20:04
  Speaker 1: well to like make New York like it does look
• 20:06
  Speaker 1: pretty at times, but so much of it is just
• 20:09
  Speaker 1: like Okay, now we're gonna go talk over here, now
• 20:11
  Speaker 1: we're gonna talk in here. And it's really a movie
• 20:13
  Speaker 1: that relies on timing and like that, like witty banter
• 20:18
  Speaker 1: like I feel like you couldn't make that movie now,
• 20:20
  Speaker 1: but if you did it, we would not be in
• 20:22
  Speaker 1: many theaters at all, you know what I mean? You
• 20:24
  Speaker 1: know in movies how you need so many set pieces
• 20:27
  Speaker 1: and big dance sequence at the end, I'll train wreckord
• 20:31
  Speaker 1: stuff like that. But um, I'm going to take this
• 20:33
  Speaker 1: opportunity now to say that I don't think I like
• 20:36
  Speaker 1: this movie very much. It is annoying to me. How
• 20:42
  Speaker 1: sure it's about like interpersonal relationships and stuff like that,
• 20:45
  Speaker 1: I find it kind of boring. I think for rom
• 20:49
  Speaker 1: com there's not that much column comedy in it. And
• 20:53
  Speaker 1: you know, Billy Crystal, I suppose, is a charming slash
• 20:57
  Speaker 1: annoying character, and you know there's always charming annoying. But
• 21:06
  Speaker 1: she I don't find her an inherently funny person, right.
• 21:09
  Speaker 1: She might have funny lines that she tries to deliver
• 21:13
  Speaker 1: in a funny way. That's the problem. I won't get
• 21:17
  Speaker 1: into it how they should cast female comics in comedy
• 21:21
  Speaker 1: movies and not actresses who don't know how to But
• 21:23
  Speaker 1: that's only you actually want the woman to be funny.
• 21:26
  Speaker 1: Mag RAN's character is pretty much like a shrew or
• 21:30
  Speaker 1: she's like this uptight, frigid woman, right, Like she's not
• 21:33
  Speaker 1: really funny the whole idea or not whole idea, but
• 21:36
  Speaker 1: it feels like what happens is Billy Crystals supposed to
• 21:38
  Speaker 1: loosen her up, right, Like he gets to be the
• 21:41
  Speaker 1: funny one, and she's like, but that's such an annoying
• 21:45
  Speaker 1: trope that keeps happening in rom comes, Like why can't
• 21:47
  Speaker 1: a woman be one of the funny people in the movie.
• 21:50
  Speaker 1: It's so that's what bothers me about a lot of
• 21:53
  Speaker 1: wrong coms where it's like this uptight woman and she
• 21:56
  Speaker 1: has to be kind of broken down by this guy
• 21:59
  Speaker 1: who comes in and I'd rather And I think this
• 22:02
  Speaker 1: is a symptom of one of the things we talked
• 22:04
  Speaker 1: about on this podcast, where women are just often pigeonholed
• 22:07
  Speaker 1: into these like specific roles or troops or archetypes where
• 22:11
  Speaker 1: they're like, I'm not this type of person. So I
• 22:14
  Speaker 1: really like in a movie where a woman character is
• 22:17
  Speaker 1: funny and like has funny lines to say and makes
• 22:21
  Speaker 1: me laugh, because you don't see that that often. Yeah, no, definitely,
• 22:25
  Speaker 1: but sorry to go on a rant, No that was
• 22:27
  Speaker 1: not right. You keep you know, no it's not a
• 22:31
  Speaker 1: rant if you talk for more than thirty seconds. It's
• 22:34
  Speaker 1: a rant if you yell for more than five minutes.
• 22:37
  Speaker 1: Should you see the difference? I see. I think ranting
• 22:40
  Speaker 1: really requires a level of yelling and intensity. I can
• 22:43
  Speaker 1: all yell because I feel like we say we're ranting
• 22:47
  Speaker 1: like to apologize for having an opinion that we want
• 22:49
  Speaker 1: to explain. Now, you're fine, I get it. I have
• 22:52
  Speaker 1: a problem with manic pixie dream girls. I can't take
• 22:55
  Speaker 1: a white girl with a bang running around like I
• 22:59
  Speaker 1: can't and especially like it can only be like white
• 23:01
  Speaker 1: women who get to have whimsy in general. And then
• 23:04
  Speaker 1: also just the idea of that woman who's just like
• 23:07
  Speaker 1: I am so free coming to my world and it's like, bitch,
• 23:10
  Speaker 1: how do you pay bills? You know what I'm saying,
• 23:12
  Speaker 1: and like, and that's one of the I I feel like
• 23:14
  Speaker 1: that's a newer one. That's like I feel like it's
• 23:17
  Speaker 1: of the two thousands. Yes, if you think about like
• 23:18
  Speaker 1: a lot of nineties route, he tended to be a
• 23:20
  Speaker 1: woman who was more like tough or it was like
• 23:22
  Speaker 1: ten things I hate about you know, it's a tough
• 23:24
  Speaker 1: girl and like and then some guy comes along and
• 23:26
  Speaker 1: teaches her to let love in, you know, and then
• 23:28
  Speaker 1: it became an uptight guy and then like a whimsical
• 23:32
  Speaker 1: girl who like sleeps on angels wing right. Yes, I
• 23:37
  Speaker 1: find that troupe very annoying. Would you like some we're
• 23:40
  Speaker 1: examining the wine that I brought. Let me point out
• 23:44
  Speaker 1: that it is in a plastic bottle. Yep, I am
• 23:48
  Speaker 1: drinking crane like chardon Ay. Except it's not crane like
• 23:51
  Speaker 1: chardon Ay. This is Trader Joe's Tubuck Chuck that I
• 23:55
  Speaker 1: put inside the classic bottle that I saved because it's
• 23:58
  Speaker 1: a great amount for a podcast Get drunk? Oh man,
• 24:07
  Speaker 1: what were we talking about? Let's yeah. So I don't
• 24:13
  Speaker 1: think it's terrible. I'd like that a woman wrote it.
• 24:15
  Speaker 1: Nor Efron, she's always having a good time. But I
• 24:19
  Speaker 1: think the problem with this movie for me is that
• 24:23
  Speaker 1: it's for starters, very heteronormative to the point where like,
• 24:29
  Speaker 1: which of course most romcoms are, but this movie is
• 24:31
  Speaker 1: heteronormative to the point where it's like, men and women
• 24:34
  Speaker 1: can't be friends because I've never heard of a gay person,
• 24:38
  Speaker 1: and there's no such thing as relationships between a gay
• 24:40
  Speaker 1: man and a straight woman or vice versa, like discounting
• 24:44
  Speaker 1: that relationship dynamic entirely. Also just the idea that even
• 24:51
  Speaker 1: two hetero people, a hetero guy and girl, can't be friends,
• 24:57
  Speaker 1: because this movie is sort of at least popularized the
• 25:00
  Speaker 1: idea that men and women can't have a platonic relationship
• 25:03
  Speaker 1: because they're just gonna want to funk each other, which
• 25:06
  Speaker 1: I don't know, maybe I'm being naive, but also I
• 25:09
  Speaker 1: have no a bunch of platonic It's just like a
• 25:13
  Speaker 1: very and maybe it was like, well it is a
• 25:15
  Speaker 1: thing of nine when this movie came out, But I just,
• 25:19
  Speaker 1: I mean, it is very dated, and I think, I
• 25:21
  Speaker 1: mean definitely you know, dated conservative. I think it was
• 25:25
  Speaker 1: of its time in that sense of like what can
• 25:28
  Speaker 1: you think of any mainstream movie that didn't take like
• 25:32
  Speaker 1: a really basic hard ciss that ere not mainstream? No,
• 25:40
  Speaker 1: you know exactly. I feel like, well, this is gonna
• 25:42
  Speaker 1: get made. And again I'm like, did it start as
• 25:44
  Speaker 1: a play down in the West village? You know? I
• 25:46
  Speaker 1: mean it's also it's also a movie to me where
• 25:48
  Speaker 1: the audience is the characters the audience are white people,
• 25:51
  Speaker 1: and they're like thirties or forties who are upwardly mobile,
• 25:56
  Speaker 1: liberal issue, you know what I mean, Like it is
• 25:58
  Speaker 1: with that tribe and yet like I've like when I
• 26:00
  Speaker 1: was like thirteen or four team, when I couldn't be
• 26:03
  Speaker 1: friends with boys like any guy I was like near,
• 26:05
  Speaker 1: I was like, oh, I want, I want you to
• 26:06
  Speaker 1: be my boyfriend like that. It made sense to me
• 26:08
  Speaker 1: at the time, definitely, do you know what I mean,
• 26:10
  Speaker 1: Because it was like I just crushes all the time.
• 26:13
  Speaker 1: I was so thirsty and this is like a movie
• 26:16
  Speaker 1: about thirst, you know, And it really spoke to me
• 26:18
  Speaker 1: as a team. That's funny because I watched it recently
• 26:20
  Speaker 1: with my fiance who had never seen it, and we
• 26:23
  Speaker 1: watched it and I was just like, god, a lot
• 26:25
  Speaker 1: of it. I was just like, it is so cheesy,
• 26:28
  Speaker 1: but it takes me back to this time in my
• 26:30
  Speaker 1: life where like it was the most romantic, cutest, sweetest thing,
• 26:34
  Speaker 1: you know what I mean. It's one of the quintessential
• 26:38
  Speaker 1: rom coms to this day. It's got some witty, it's
• 26:41
  Speaker 1: got some pithy banter. Like they do have a good
• 26:43
  Speaker 1: rhythm because again, it is a stage play, so like
• 26:47
  Speaker 1: the only way it's gonna work is if they kind
• 26:49
  Speaker 1: of have a little something going. And I think they
• 26:51
  Speaker 1: do to keep you going. There's a moment you know,
• 26:53
  Speaker 1: it's like, but it's very I did find when I
• 26:56
  Speaker 1: was watching it this last time it did feel like
• 26:58
  Speaker 1: it didn't nothing happen, Like, okay, so what are they
• 27:02
  Speaker 1: going to get together? So when is it gonna happen?
• 27:05
  Speaker 1: And maybe it's just because we live in two thousand
• 27:08
  Speaker 1: seventeen right now as we are recording this, I know
• 27:11
  Speaker 1: listeners are going to keep going back to this right now.
• 27:16
  Speaker 1: It might be two thousand, might be twenty one sixty
• 27:22
  Speaker 1: eight right now, and this podcast has stood the test
• 27:26
  Speaker 1: of time. It's survived the singularity certainly. Right, So, all
• 27:30
  Speaker 1: of you machine slash robots who have human consciousness uploaded
• 27:35
  Speaker 1: into your micro chip in your all of you guys
• 27:39
  Speaker 1: listening out there, things were a bit different in nineteen
• 27:42
  Speaker 1: eighty nine, right right right. There were genders, they weren't fluid,
• 27:46
  Speaker 1: There was no spectrum. Everything was very binary, very binary.
• 27:51
  Speaker 1: So yeah, like we mentioned, this movie is not necessarily aging, well,
• 27:57
  Speaker 1: but I think it's also I think it's also for
• 27:59
  Speaker 1: me to I think it's the New York with me, right,
• 28:01
  Speaker 1: Like those cute little like pretty shots and what were like,
• 28:03
  Speaker 1: I know that place I know that place, you know
• 28:05
  Speaker 1: what I mean, Like, Oh, I can't wait till I'm
• 28:07
  Speaker 1: in adult New York and I'm working around with my
• 28:09
  Speaker 1: boyfriend and then we're doing Edish and dad the other
• 28:12
  Speaker 1: you know, and then I have had a Jewish man
• 28:13
  Speaker 1: who won't bring a Christmas tree into our house so
• 28:16
  Speaker 1: that you dreamed. Let's talk about the fake orgasm scene,
• 28:23
  Speaker 1: the famous fake orgasm. Yeah, maybe it's because Meg Ryan
• 28:27
  Speaker 1: isn't particularly sexualized that much throughout this movie, which is
• 28:31
  Speaker 1: a thing that I like about it. You know, a
• 28:33
  Speaker 1: lot of movies are like, oh, we have a woman
• 28:36
  Speaker 1: character in this better put her in a middrift top
• 28:41
  Speaker 1: and make sure she's got giant tits and have her
• 28:45
  Speaker 1: not say anything. Um So, at least they didn't do
• 28:48
  Speaker 1: that to our little Meg Ryan. But for her to
• 28:52
  Speaker 1: like fake an orgasm in a diner in like a
• 28:54
  Speaker 1: pretty non sexy way, like she's just like I feel
• 28:59
  Speaker 1: like she has there's something like weird guttural like yes,
• 29:07
  Speaker 1: well it's so funny to me. Well to me? What
• 29:10
  Speaker 1: also made no sense that her character would do that
• 29:12
  Speaker 1: total uptight woman like her, who like I'm like, suddenly
• 29:16
  Speaker 1: you're making orgasm sounds in public. That's the type of
• 29:19
  Speaker 1: thing a manic pixie dream girl would do, but not
• 29:21
  Speaker 1: like uptight, no, not her, no, Sally alright, wuld never Yeah.
• 29:26
  Speaker 1: So I was kind of like, what are you doing?
• 29:28
  Speaker 1: What's become of you? And then the way she just
• 29:30
  Speaker 1: goes back to eating all smug, I'll have it cheese
• 29:33
  Speaker 1: having And wasn't that Rob Browner's mom? Oh was it?
• 29:38
  Speaker 1: And it's like the most famous line in the movie,
• 29:40
  Speaker 1: Like apparently overseas it was the most popular thing to
• 29:44
  Speaker 1: ever happen. So okay, so we have a few female
• 29:47
  Speaker 1: characters to talk about. By the way, Jamie's still not here.
• 29:52
  Speaker 1: We've been talking for a good how long has it
• 29:55
  Speaker 1: been Aristotle forty minutes. Jamie, for some reason double book
• 30:00
  Speaker 1: a thing where I think she's it's not a photo shoot,
• 30:04
  Speaker 1: but she needs to have photos taken of her. I'm
• 30:07
  Speaker 1: not sure she's helping out a friend. Great for her.
• 30:10
  Speaker 1: I'm having a great time with you so far. In fact,
• 30:12
  Speaker 1: if Jamie comes in, I'm going to be like, you
• 30:14
  Speaker 1: know what, stay out, stay out. You missed it. We
• 30:18
  Speaker 1: don't need Jamie, although I missed you feel like you
• 30:21
  Speaker 1: need Jamie? Do you feel like because she's really protesting
• 30:26
  Speaker 1: too much. You know, she's really saying how she doesn't
• 30:28
  Speaker 1: need Jamie, which leads me to believe she needs ja Hey,
• 30:30
  Speaker 1: there's some subtext there maybe, But so we've got Marie,
• 30:34
  Speaker 1: which is Carrie Fisher, not mother. What did you do?
• 30:39
  Speaker 1: The Internet is going to rip me apart. No, it's okay.
• 30:42
  Speaker 1: So in terms of like the portrayal of the women
• 30:45
  Speaker 1: characters in this movie, they're only ever. I mean, we'll
• 30:49
  Speaker 1: get into this later about whether or not the movie
• 30:50
  Speaker 1: passes the Bechtel test, but there are a number of
• 30:53
  Speaker 1: women characters, and they do talk to each other. That's great,
• 30:57
  Speaker 1: But the whole thing, and this is a out this
• 31:00
  Speaker 1: what this movie is about. It's about romance. It's about
• 31:03
  Speaker 1: hetero romantic relationships, specifically between Harry and Sally. So it
• 31:09
  Speaker 1: makes sense that they would be talking like if women
• 31:11
  Speaker 1: are talking, that they'd be talking about men, but only
• 31:16
  Speaker 1: but right, and even when Sally and like her friend
• 31:21
  Speaker 1: Marie or her friend Alice are talking every every single thing,
• 31:27
  Speaker 1: it's just frustrating to have a portrayal of women where
• 31:31
  Speaker 1: basically the only thing that's important to them, at least
• 31:34
  Speaker 1: as far as we can tell, is their relationship to men,
• 31:38
  Speaker 1: like what does Sally do for to live? Exactly? Like
• 31:41
  Speaker 1: we see her in what looks? At one point, I'm like,
• 31:42
  Speaker 1: are you a stewardess? She hasn't like this outfit with
• 31:44
  Speaker 1: like a like an ask and an ascot and not
• 31:47
  Speaker 1: a time scarf. I was like, are you a stewardess?
• 31:51
  Speaker 1: Is like no, like you're some a business lady. She's
• 31:54
  Speaker 1: a very nice apartments like what do you do? Right? Okay,
• 31:56
  Speaker 1: so she is a journalist. She says she is a journalists,
• 32:00
  Speaker 1: but we don't We don't know what kind what sort
• 32:03
  Speaker 1: of things she covers. She did in the opening scene,
• 32:07
  Speaker 1: she's like, I'm gonna go be a journy journalist. And
• 32:12
  Speaker 1: then when they meet again on the plane, he's like,
• 32:14
  Speaker 1: did you oh, you're going to be a gymnast and
• 32:16
  Speaker 1: she said she's like a journalists and he's like, yeah,
• 32:18
  Speaker 1: that's what I said, which is I guess a funny joke,
• 32:21
  Speaker 1: but no, it's not sorry nor ever. But she, I guess,
• 32:26
  Speaker 1: had a goal and set out to do it and
• 32:27
  Speaker 1: did it. But then we don't know anything about her job. Granted,
• 32:30
  Speaker 1: we don't know anything about the other guy, Like Harry
• 32:33
  Speaker 1: is a political analyst or consultant or something like. I
• 32:39
  Speaker 1: would have loved to just see anyone at their job. Right.
• 32:43
  Speaker 1: We have Marie and Jess talk about writing, right like
• 32:47
  Speaker 1: he gets like we talked about his work, and then
• 32:49
  Speaker 1: of course that she loves his work. But talk you know,
• 32:54
  Speaker 1: But then what else is anyone ever doing? Are you
• 32:57
  Speaker 1: pursuing anything with your time? Right? It's all about getting
• 33:02
  Speaker 1: that d'e about thirst? Yeah, totally. That scene where they're
• 33:08
  Speaker 1: on like the double date, when they're trying to set
• 33:09
  Speaker 1: each other up with Sally trying to set up Harry
• 33:11
  Speaker 1: with Marie and Harry is trying to set up Sally
• 33:14
  Speaker 1: with Jess. But Marie and Jess have it. They've got
• 33:19
  Speaker 1: the same haircut, they can share all sorts of product.
• 33:21
  Speaker 1: It makes sense they do have and Jamie isn't here
• 33:25
  Speaker 1: to corroborate this. But Jamie loftist has the loftiest test
• 33:30
  Speaker 1: or the loftest rule where the baldest woman is in charge.
• 33:37
  Speaker 1: Carrie Fisher in this movie is thea She has the
• 33:39
  Speaker 1: shortest hair, but I wouldn't say she's in charge. So
• 33:43
  Speaker 1: this movie does not pass the loftest test. But that
• 33:48
  Speaker 1: scene drives me crazy, where she's like, first of all,
• 33:50
  Speaker 1: she says a quote that makes no sense at least
• 33:52
  Speaker 1: to me, where she's like, restaurants are in the eighties,
• 33:55
  Speaker 1: what to what theater is in the sixties or something right,
• 33:58
  Speaker 1: And I'm like, what do you mean by that? She's like,
• 34:01
  Speaker 1: I read that in at least have her be like,
• 34:05
  Speaker 1: that's a thing that I thought on my own. And
• 34:07
  Speaker 1: then if they have parallel thinking, then it's not so
• 34:10
  Speaker 1: much of like a jerk off moment for him. And
• 34:12
  Speaker 1: he's like, I wrote that and you liked what. I've
• 34:16
  Speaker 1: never had someone quote back to me article before, oh love,
• 34:22
  Speaker 1: So just a moment like that where like it could
• 34:23
  Speaker 1: be more like they just have the same opinion about something,
• 34:26
  Speaker 1: where it's actually her regurgitating and he's just like, well,
• 34:31
  Speaker 1: I'm coming. It's so annoying that like that dynamic isn't
• 34:37
  Speaker 1: more equal where they just like, oh, I'm a woman
• 34:40
  Speaker 1: with my own thoughts and here's the thing that I think,
• 34:42
  Speaker 1: and I'm a man with my own thoughts and we
• 34:45
  Speaker 1: happen to agree on this. It's just annoying to me.
• 34:48
  Speaker 1: And then it's just like, what does Marie do? We
• 34:50
  Speaker 1: have no fucking idea. What does Alice do? No clue.
• 34:54
  Speaker 1: This is what I'm talking about. What they do is
• 34:57
  Speaker 1: thirst for men. They sit around out. My favorite Marie
• 35:01
  Speaker 1: has a Rollo deck, which I was like, again, it's
• 35:04
  Speaker 1: like so eighties, like the fact that there was even
• 35:05
  Speaker 1: a physical rolodex. And then when it was like he's married,
• 35:10
  Speaker 1: she like takes the name and just folds the corner down,
• 35:13
  Speaker 1: like married, he's not gone from the rolodex. She believes
• 35:17
  Speaker 1: he will be a viable option later because she's all
• 35:20
  Speaker 1: into married men. Yeah, she's just like I gotta she probably, Yeah,
• 35:23
  Speaker 1: she's got that system, fold the corner down. This one
• 35:26
  Speaker 1: will just be a little harder HERX just carrying a
• 35:31
  Speaker 1: rollods into your purse with just all your information. I
• 35:34
  Speaker 1: just thought that was so funny. It was again of
• 35:37
  Speaker 1: a time when that was what you did. She could
• 35:39
  Speaker 1: have just had a date book, No, she had a
• 35:41
  Speaker 1: physical giants that she is so funny because it lasts
• 35:49
  Speaker 1: probably five minutes and they literally only talk about four
• 35:54
  Speaker 1: or five different men right in the scene. But kind
• 35:57
  Speaker 1: of harkening back to the conversation about what are these
• 35:59
  Speaker 1: people do for a living? Specifically, it just would have
• 36:03
  Speaker 1: been nice to have them. I mean, sure, the movie
• 36:06
  Speaker 1: is about their relationship, but throwing a fucking few subplots
• 36:10
  Speaker 1: about anything a career aspiration she has, or a relationship
• 36:16
  Speaker 1: with her mom or something like that, just something where
• 36:19
  Speaker 1: it's just not all about thirsty people trying to fuck.
• 36:25
  Speaker 1: I want to see her or them be good at something.
• 36:28
  Speaker 1: That's That's the other thing too, because it feels like
• 36:31
  Speaker 1: she is like an uptight woman. They only pretty much,
• 36:35
  Speaker 1: I don't know, they're very interior and it's kind of like,
• 36:37
  Speaker 1: do you do anything for anybody else? Do you have
• 36:39
  Speaker 1: any interest? Are you good at anything? Because to me,
• 36:43
  Speaker 1: she is so type A that I need to see
• 36:46
  Speaker 1: where that helps her anywhere? Do you know what I mean?
• 36:49
  Speaker 1: Because I'm like, you're just like this is not serving
• 36:51
  Speaker 1: you in life, and then you somehow then just like
• 36:53
  Speaker 1: do a fake orgasm and a diner. So what right,
• 36:58
  Speaker 1: Like is she an investigative journalists where she has to
• 37:01
  Speaker 1: like go and really sort of be like, yeah, that
• 37:05
  Speaker 1: would make sense for her character and then also like
• 37:08
  Speaker 1: show a different side of her, show a little dimension
• 37:10
  Speaker 1: for her. But we really only see these pretty one
• 37:14
  Speaker 1: dimensional characters. To be fair, both the men and the
• 37:18
  Speaker 1: women are presented is pretty yeah, So that's just sort
• 37:23
  Speaker 1: of a problem with your writing in general. Again, sorry
• 37:26
  Speaker 1: Nora Efron, But am I gonna write it script with
• 37:31
  Speaker 1: my master's degree in screenwriting that shows people with a
• 37:35
  Speaker 1: little more dimension? Yes, yes, I am excellent. I just
• 37:39
  Speaker 1: have to get the motivation to do that. It's hard.
• 37:43
  Speaker 1: If you can save a crane Lake bottle and refill
• 37:48
  Speaker 1: it with three buck chuck for later, you can sit
• 37:52
  Speaker 1: down and write in this screen like you're a motivated woman.
• 37:55
  Speaker 1: Thank you. I really needed that, pep talk. Do you
• 38:00
  Speaker 1: have any final thoughts about the movie, how it portrays women,
• 38:05
  Speaker 1: anything at all? You know, as you said, though, you know,
• 38:08
  Speaker 1: everyone is pretty much like two dimensional. They really are archetypes.
• 38:11
  Speaker 1: For me is like comfort is the wrong word. But
• 38:14
  Speaker 1: it's like one of those things you can always have
• 38:16
  Speaker 1: on the background, you know what I mean, Like movies
• 38:18
  Speaker 1: or TV shows where you're like, oh, yeah, that's happening,
• 38:20
  Speaker 1: and then you just turn around, you're like, oh, foliage
• 38:22
  Speaker 1: and they were like fun chunky sweaters and then you're done,
• 38:26
  Speaker 1: you know. And those little interstitials with the couples are
• 38:29
  Speaker 1: like my favorite thing. Someone told me recently that they're
• 38:31
  Speaker 1: not real. They were actors, and I thought they were
• 38:34
  Speaker 1: real couples that they interviewed, and like, if that's true
• 38:37
  Speaker 1: that their actors, like the movies did to me so
• 38:42
  Speaker 1: listeners they were actors. See, I assumed that she, like,
• 38:44
  Speaker 1: you know, put out an give me old couples with
• 38:46
  Speaker 1: fun stories. Well like none of them. Half of the couples,
• 38:50
  Speaker 1: Like again, the woman's not talking or like they're not
• 38:52
  Speaker 1: looking at people, Like they look so regular that I
• 38:58
  Speaker 1: just could just be because there were eighty years old,
• 39:01
  Speaker 1: and like if they at one point were hot, they're
• 39:05
  Speaker 1: now eighty. No, but I'm just slight anyway. If they're actors,
• 39:11
  Speaker 1: then I think that I mean, I think their stories,
• 39:13
  Speaker 1: their scenes were a little too rehearsed and tidy to
• 39:18
  Speaker 1: have been real people actually recounting real stories. Maybe the
• 39:22
  Speaker 1: stories were real, maybe like you just roll it a
• 39:25
  Speaker 1: few times and you edit. I mean, because Laura knows
• 39:28
  Speaker 1: an old person knows how to repeat themselves. You know
• 39:29
  Speaker 1: what I'm saying. They don't tell a story from like
• 39:32
  Speaker 1: fifty years ago, sure the same way every time and
• 39:35
  Speaker 1: tell it to you like you've never heard it before. Yeah,
• 39:38
  Speaker 1: that is true. Not to say that all old people
• 39:41
  Speaker 1: have hashtag people. It's not about Demendra. I'm just look,
• 39:46
  Speaker 1: Oh my god, you can't say a word. You can't
• 39:48
  Speaker 1: say a word anymore less dementia, more dimension. How about
• 39:52
  Speaker 1: that Hollywood that makes no sense? I loved it. I
• 39:56
  Speaker 1: loved it. It was great. You know, it's like restaurants
• 39:59
  Speaker 1: are the people in the eighties with eater exactly. I
• 40:01
  Speaker 1: know exactly what you mean when you say that. So
• 40:05
  Speaker 1: we've checked in with Jamie. Doesn't appear as though she
• 40:07
  Speaker 1: will make it in time to do the things we
• 40:11
  Speaker 1: do on this episode, which is to determine whether or
• 40:13
  Speaker 1: not it passes the Bechdel test. Rate the movie, So well,
• 40:18
  Speaker 1: do those things without her. So let's talk about whether
• 40:21
  Speaker 1: or not the movie passes the Bechdel test. We've already
• 40:23
  Speaker 1: sort of hinted at a number of scenes where women
• 40:27
  Speaker 1: are talking. I have detailed every single one. I went
• 40:31
  Speaker 1: through and made notes about every scene where a woman
• 40:35
  Speaker 1: talks to another woman. So I'm just gonna kind of
• 40:38
  Speaker 1: go through each one and we'll be like, Hey, does
• 40:40
  Speaker 1: this pass or no. So it happens right away when
• 40:43
  Speaker 1: uh Sally talks to her friend, who we later learned
• 40:47
  Speaker 1: is named Amanda. She's like the college friend whenever they
• 40:50
  Speaker 1: were about to embark on their road trip. She's making
• 40:53
  Speaker 1: out with Harry. Sally sitting in the car and she's
• 40:56
  Speaker 1: just like and then Amanda goes, oh, hi, Sally, Sally,
• 41:00
  Speaker 1: this is Harry Burns Harry, this is Sally. All right.
• 41:03
  Speaker 1: That does not pass. The test's introducing a man, introducing
• 41:07
  Speaker 1: a man, and Sally doesn't really respond to that or
• 41:10
  Speaker 1: say anything. That's not a conversation. That one does not pass.
• 41:14
  Speaker 1: Then the next scene is they're like on the road trip,
• 41:17
  Speaker 1: they stop at a diner. This is when Sally orders
• 41:21
  Speaker 1: disgusting bullshit strawberry ice cream on her again, vomiting, I'm
• 41:29
  Speaker 1: frothing at the mouth in disgust. But you know she's
• 41:35
  Speaker 1: being a chef salad and ambled pie on the monin
• 41:38
  Speaker 1: I'm in privileged piggy betchles everything my way. So she's
• 41:43
  Speaker 1: talking to the waitress ordering this, but that waitress does
• 41:48
  Speaker 1: not have a name, and she just says, okay, yeah,
• 41:52
  Speaker 1: he's just like they're talking about food. So if we
• 41:55
  Speaker 1: knew the waitress's name, because they have an exchange, but
• 41:59
  Speaker 1: because we don't the waitress's name, and that's one of
• 42:01
  Speaker 1: the caveats of the version of the backtel test that
• 42:04
  Speaker 1: we adhere to on the Bechtel cast. I say, it
• 42:07
  Speaker 1: does not pass, right. So next one, the airplane scene,
• 42:12
  Speaker 1: Sally is ordering again from a flight attendant and she's like,
• 42:17
  Speaker 1: bloody Mary mix, do you have it? Just kidding? I
• 42:19
  Speaker 1: barely want any of it. I went mostly tomato, like
• 42:24
  Speaker 1: a raw tomato, muddled with a slash of soda. Get
• 42:29
  Speaker 1: a mortar and pistol and crash up the tomato and
• 42:33
  Speaker 1: then put some vodka in it. And that's the bloody
• 42:36
  Speaker 1: Mary I want. So that obviously does not pass because
• 42:39
  Speaker 1: we don't know the flight attendant's name, even though there's
• 42:41
  Speaker 1: a tiny little bit of an interaction there. Next scene,
• 42:43
  Speaker 1: the hilarious scene where they're at lunched Sally, Marie and Alice,
• 42:48
  Speaker 1: And that's the one we already talked about where they
• 42:50
  Speaker 1: talked about like six different men, literally nothing else. They
• 42:55
  Speaker 1: don't talk about a single other. There's no other conversation topics.
• 42:59
  Speaker 1: But Joe, the guy that Marie is trying to funk
• 43:04
  Speaker 1: even though he's married. Alice says, some ship, it's about men,
• 43:09
  Speaker 1: and then Marie pulls on her roll index for more men,
• 43:13
  Speaker 1: for more men, So obviously does not pass. At least
• 43:17
  Speaker 1: we know those characters names, I guess. And then the
• 43:21
  Speaker 1: next scene is Sally Marie in the bookstore when Harry
• 43:24
  Speaker 1: comes into her life again. Marie's like, my married boyfriend
• 43:29
  Speaker 1: just but a nighty again talking about him, and then
• 43:32
  Speaker 1: they talk about Harry and then Marie immediately runs out
• 43:36
  Speaker 1: of the scene. Than the scene where they're on the
• 43:40
  Speaker 1: double date. Even before that, Marie's talking about the dude
• 43:43
  Speaker 1: who won't leave his wife, talking about a man. Then
• 43:46
  Speaker 1: on the date they don't even talk to each other,
• 43:50
  Speaker 1: and after the day they talk about whether or not
• 43:52
  Speaker 1: to go home with the men. Yeah, Maria, do you
• 43:54
  Speaker 1: mind if I do? Kind of like that scene because
• 43:57
  Speaker 1: they're both like Harry and Sally are both like are
• 44:00
  Speaker 1: He's in a fragile place and Sally is sad about
• 44:03
  Speaker 1: her breakup and so maybe you don't reject them right now.
• 44:06
  Speaker 1: And then Jess is like, I'm gonna get a cab
• 44:09
  Speaker 1: and She's like, I'm coming with you. So that's funny
• 44:13
  Speaker 1: that one attempted a joke. I like, Caitly will allow it,
• 44:16
  Speaker 1: will allow it. I permit it. That we've got the
• 44:18
  Speaker 1: wagon wheel table scene, Marie asks Sally if she likes
• 44:22
  Speaker 1: the table. Sally does not respond she shakes her head,
• 44:28
  Speaker 1: so there's no verbal communication there. So far we're at
• 44:33
  Speaker 1: none of these scenes passed the test. Let's there's a
• 44:35
  Speaker 1: few more fingers crossed. Let's see there's the party where
• 44:40
  Speaker 1: they play pictionary. Sally's apparently not good at anything, because
• 44:45
  Speaker 1: she sucks at drawing. Someone says, we don't know who
• 44:48
  Speaker 1: it is, but someone's like, where's the bathroom? And Marie says,
• 44:51
  Speaker 1: down the hall. I love these recreets. But we don't
• 44:57
  Speaker 1: know who says that because we don't even and see
• 45:00
  Speaker 1: her speak on screen. And then afterwards, Sally and Marie
• 45:04
  Speaker 1: are talking about Harry's date, which, okay, right, it's not
• 45:07
  Speaker 1: about a man. It's not about a man, but it's
• 45:09
  Speaker 1: about the man's new girlfriend. So I'm not really sure
• 45:14
  Speaker 1: how to handle this because she's like Emily, she's young,
• 45:18
  Speaker 1: she makes desserts. She's Emily that Emily's famous for her
• 45:23
  Speaker 1: dessert so you know what she does for a living,
• 45:25
  Speaker 1: and she's successful. I didn't say anything, right, so I'm
• 45:29
  Speaker 1: not really sure this one might be a pass because
• 45:31
  Speaker 1: they talk about a woman. But again, if you really
• 45:36
  Speaker 1: dig deeper, they're only talking about her because they're talking
• 45:40
  Speaker 1: about what Harry's up to and who he's dating, so
• 45:43
  Speaker 1: it's still sort of about him, So that one's a
• 45:48
  Speaker 1: shrug hard to say. Let's go back to it, because
• 45:51
  Speaker 1: this happens a few more times where Sally is at
• 45:55
  Speaker 1: Marie's wedding dress fitting hideous, adis dress so bad? And
• 46:02
  Speaker 1: they're talking about Harry, and then they're talking about another
• 46:06
  Speaker 1: of Harry's new girlfriends, and then Marie says, oh, she's thin,
• 46:10
  Speaker 1: pretty big tits basic nightmare, which, okay, why do you
• 46:16
  Speaker 1: have to shame her for how she looks? For no reason?
• 46:19
  Speaker 1: Why do we need to talk about women that way?
• 46:22
  Speaker 1: We don't. I'm yelling now, it's a rant. And then
• 46:28
  Speaker 1: they talk about her dress and she's like do you
• 46:31
  Speaker 1: think and she's like, oh, Marie, she's so beautiful. She
• 46:36
  Speaker 1: cries and it's literally one of the ugly and she's like,
• 46:40
  Speaker 1: tell the truth, it's just beautiful. So I guess we'll
• 46:43
  Speaker 1: give that one a pass, although we're talking about the
• 46:47
  Speaker 1: dress that she's going to get married to a man
• 46:50
  Speaker 1: in Okay, Well, I don't know about all this, but
• 46:54
  Speaker 1: I'm gonna say that it seems like why they don't
• 46:56
  Speaker 1: pass though, for both the like girlfriend Emily thing in
• 46:59
  Speaker 1: the dress, thing that they're those are just moments in
• 47:01
  Speaker 1: a larger conversation, Like so they're never having one single
• 47:06
  Speaker 1: scene that does not include the guy is subject. Yep,
• 47:11
  Speaker 1: that's a good point. There's a few after this. At
• 47:15
  Speaker 1: Marie's wedding, Sally and Alice are talking and they're talking
• 47:19
  Speaker 1: about Marie. I've never seen her so happy. Oh yeah,
• 47:22
  Speaker 1: she's so happy. It's great. And then well, what are
• 47:25
  Speaker 1: you going to do about you? And that's a conversation,
• 47:28
  Speaker 1: and then a guy immediately comes and pulls Alice away,
• 47:31
  Speaker 1: like let's dance. So I suppose again because they're talking
• 47:35
  Speaker 1: about Marie and no men are mentioned in that comment,
• 47:38
  Speaker 1: a man does swoop in and literally drag Alice away.
• 47:44
  Speaker 1: Alice's husband one sort of dance says that one's also
• 47:49
  Speaker 1: a pass question mark. Then there at the New Year's
• 47:53
  Speaker 1: Eve party, Sally says to Marie, I'm going home, and
• 47:57
  Speaker 1: Marie says, you'll never get a taxi, And then she
• 47:59
  Speaker 1: turns back her conversation she's having with a dude and
• 48:02
  Speaker 1: keeps fake laughing at his stupid joke. Take a scheduling class,
• 48:07
  Speaker 1: Learn how to tell a fucking joke. Dude. And then
• 48:12
  Speaker 1: later on Sally's like, I'm going to go and where
• 48:14
  Speaker 1: He's like, but it's almost midnight, and she's like, but
• 48:17
  Speaker 1: the thought of not kissing someone is just that to me,
• 48:21
  Speaker 1: does not pass because she's like, I'm leaving because there's
• 48:24
  Speaker 1: no one for me to kiss, there's no man for
• 48:26
  Speaker 1: me to kiss. Here a failure. So of these what
• 48:31
  Speaker 1: did I say, eight or more conversations throughout the movie
• 48:35
  Speaker 1: between women, only like one of them is one or
• 48:39
  Speaker 1: two of them is just like a sort of maybe
• 48:41
  Speaker 1: kind of question mark. It's upsetting that they couldn't have
• 48:46
  Speaker 1: done a better job with this or made it more
• 48:49
  Speaker 1: as it was written by a woman, right, So I
• 48:51
  Speaker 1: think that's the other issue. Although who knows how many
• 48:55
  Speaker 1: writers out there are writing movies with the Bechdel test
• 48:58
  Speaker 1: in mind? Well, in ninety eight nine, probably no one,
• 49:01
  Speaker 1: because this was barely a thing back then. It's not surprising.
• 49:06
  Speaker 1: It's just frustrating that there were so there were a
• 49:09
  Speaker 1: bunch of conversations between women, but because they almost exclusively
• 49:14
  Speaker 1: talk about men, or if their conversation is about a woman,
• 49:17
  Speaker 1: it's in the context of right, So I'm gonna give
• 49:22
  Speaker 1: it a like a barely pass. I'm gonna say no,
• 49:26
  Speaker 1: but okayon, let's go with no, let's do it. This
• 49:33
  Speaker 1: movie does not pass the Bechdel test the end. You
• 49:36
  Speaker 1: heard it here first. I think we've made a good
• 49:39
  Speaker 1: case for it not passing. So I think you really
• 49:42
  Speaker 1: broke it down. Thank you. So let's rate the movie
• 49:45
  Speaker 1: on our nipple scale. All right, we rate the movie
• 49:48
  Speaker 1: on a scale of zero to five nipples. They are
• 49:51
  Speaker 1: generally human nipples, but if you want them to be
• 49:53
  Speaker 1: cat nipples, that's okay, to the right. We rate it
• 49:58
  Speaker 1: based on the portrayal of men. I'm gonna give it
• 50:02
  Speaker 1: a one. Yeah, Yeah, I mean I get it, I
• 50:07
  Speaker 1: get it. I think I'm gonna have to agree with
• 50:10
  Speaker 1: you for going back a portrayal. Yeah one, because and again,
• 50:15
  Speaker 1: like this is what this movie is about. But also,
• 50:18
  Speaker 1: there are plenty of rom coms out there where the
• 50:22
  Speaker 1: pursuit of a romantic interest or a romantic relationship is
• 50:26
  Speaker 1: the main plot. But there's still other things. There's other
• 50:29
  Speaker 1: things a steak, there's subplots where the character has a
• 50:32
  Speaker 1: career thing, a career goal, or a friendship where they
• 50:36
  Speaker 1: don't just talk about the man like it's just because
• 50:39
  Speaker 1: every single moment in this movie is sort of framed
• 50:43
  Speaker 1: in how a woman is gonna try to suck a
• 50:47
  Speaker 1: man and a man's gonna try to suck a woman
• 50:49
  Speaker 1: and can they be friends? And no, because that's not
• 50:51
  Speaker 1: the thing according to this movie. Even though I could
• 50:55
  Speaker 1: name twenty men who my friends with who I don't
• 51:00
  Speaker 1: want to have sex with, and I don't know whether
• 51:03
  Speaker 1: or not they want to have sex with me, but
• 51:04
  Speaker 1: probably not. I'm a wretched person, okay, lind but I
• 51:12
  Speaker 1: think that this movie made up a rule that is
• 51:15
  Speaker 1: horseshit and it's problematic. But anyway, do you have any
• 51:21
  Speaker 1: final thoughts about the movie? Anything you wanna say? I mean, no,
• 51:24
  Speaker 1: it's definitely like ruined, like a great part of my
• 51:26
  Speaker 1: childhood for me, So I appreciate that. Thank you very much.
• 51:29
  Speaker 1: Um really sobering, you know, but it is. It's just
• 51:34
  Speaker 1: really great to know this there's someone else who's also
• 51:36
  Speaker 1: disgusted by a strawberr ice cream and apple pie, So
• 51:38
  Speaker 1: thank you for that. I cannot get over it. But Naomi,
• 51:41
  Speaker 1: thank you so much for being here. Thank you. Where
• 51:43
  Speaker 1: can people follow you online? Holler at me on Twitter
• 51:47
  Speaker 1: at black dress? Hell yeah, thanks for taking the time
• 51:52
  Speaker 1: to be here. It was such a treasure to talk
• 51:54
  Speaker 1: to you about When Harry met Sally. Our whole conversation
• 51:58
  Speaker 1: pretty much past the actal test here today. So for us,
• 52:03
  Speaker 1: you're talking about a movie we did. All right, thank you,
• 52:07
  Speaker 1: Bye the Bedel Cast. It's me Caitlin and Jamie. I'm
• 52:14
  Speaker 1: just poking my head in, poking head and poking my
• 52:16
  Speaker 1: head and saying, hey, wait a second, I was dancing
• 52:19
  Speaker 1: with a kid when I should have been doing the podcast.
• 52:21
  Speaker 1: It's okay, I forgive you entirely. We've got busy lives.
• 52:25
  Speaker 1: So we talked about when Harry met Sally, but you
• 52:29
  Speaker 1: and I have not talked about it, So let's do
• 52:31
  Speaker 1: that now, Okay. So I first saw When Harry Met
• 52:34
  Speaker 1: Sally a year and a half ago, pretty recent, pretty recent,
• 52:39
  Speaker 1: And it was at the insistence of a guy I
• 52:41
  Speaker 1: was dating who insisted it was just my kind of movie.
• 52:45
  Speaker 1: Turned out it wasn't, and he was not the kind
• 52:47
  Speaker 1: of person I wanted to be spending my time with.
• 52:49
  Speaker 1: So a lot of hard lessons learned in this journey
• 52:52
  Speaker 1: we call life. But I hadn't seen it, but I
• 52:55
  Speaker 1: did when I saw it, already know a lot about
• 52:58
  Speaker 1: and really loved Nora Ephron, so I'd be like a
• 53:02
  Speaker 1: tricky I know, I'm inclined to want to give this
• 53:05
  Speaker 1: movie more breaks than it deserves because I love her
• 53:07
  Speaker 1: so much. Yeah. Well, I spend a few different moments
• 53:11
  Speaker 1: of the episode saying something mean about her writing, and
• 53:15
  Speaker 1: then that's I mean, you're apologizing to her. Hey, speaking
• 53:21
  Speaker 1: of goes, that was a fun one. Yeah, we actually
• 53:26
  Speaker 1: mentioned it a bit on this episode. Hell yeah, So
• 53:29
  Speaker 1: go back and listen. Okay, well, do what were your
• 53:35
  Speaker 1: thoughts about the portrayal of women and Harry met Sally? Okay, I, hey, Harry,
• 53:41
  Speaker 1: Harry is the worst. I love Billy Crystal by Harry
• 53:47
  Speaker 1: and um Sally. I feel like, I don't think that
• 53:51
  Speaker 1: she's a bad character, but I think she's fucked over
• 53:54
  Speaker 1: in every conceivable way by the plot and by all
• 53:58
  Speaker 1: the powers that be in the movie. Um, she's fucked
• 54:01
  Speaker 1: over in every single way, and half of the time
• 54:03
  Speaker 1: it's made out to look like they're doing her a
• 54:05
  Speaker 1: favor when they're actually sucking her up. Can you give
• 54:08
  Speaker 1: it an example? Well, like, okay, so one of the
• 54:11
  Speaker 1: examples is like they set the precedent right at the
• 54:14
  Speaker 1: top with the documentary like old couples talking and women
• 54:19
  Speaker 1: don't even talk in half of those. It's very passive.
• 54:23
  Speaker 1: And so we're set up at the top of like
• 54:25
  Speaker 1: this is true love. So whoever the female counterpart is
• 54:29
  Speaker 1: in this movie is going to be, you know, forced
• 54:32
  Speaker 1: into that thing that they set up at the top.
• 54:35
  Speaker 1: It's weird because it's like, Sally has a life, she
• 54:37
  Speaker 1: has a job, she writes for like New York magazine. Right, well,
• 54:41
  Speaker 1: we don't know. That's one of the things we talked about.
• 54:43
  Speaker 1: We hardly know anything about her life outside of her
• 54:46
  Speaker 1: relationship with Harry, right right, right, And it's I do
• 54:51
  Speaker 1: I she's a professional writer of she's a journalist, but
• 54:53
  Speaker 1: that's pretty much all we know, right, And then there's
• 54:56
  Speaker 1: the what's the guy who's not Harry, who's also a
• 55:00
  Speaker 1: ournalist who yes, who never shuts the funk up about
• 55:04
  Speaker 1: his job, and so we know all about his journalism,
• 55:07
  Speaker 1: and it's like, but we can't know, like what is
• 55:09
  Speaker 1: Sally working on kind of journalist issue? What's her beat?
• 55:15
  Speaker 1: Like we don't know, you know, and she's made out
• 55:18
  Speaker 1: to be like a bitchy professional, but we barely know
• 55:21
  Speaker 1: what she does. So that pisces me off. Even though
• 55:26
  Speaker 1: it's like I trust that the character is doing the
• 55:30
  Speaker 1: job and is self sufficient, but it's just like the
• 55:33
  Speaker 1: story does not seem to care to let us into
• 55:37
  Speaker 1: anything outside of Harry. Harry is a toxic piece of garbage.
• 55:43
  Speaker 1: Obviously they shouldn't end up together. Well, and then then
• 55:47
  Speaker 1: there's just like the big theme of like men and
• 55:49
  Speaker 1: women can't be friends, which is wrong. I spent a
• 55:54
  Speaker 1: lot of time talking about that, how it's a very
• 55:56
  Speaker 1: like outdated, heter normative, wrong notion when I was rewatching,
• 56:04
  Speaker 1: and then I was reading a little bit. There's a
• 56:05
  Speaker 1: great piece that came out over five years ago now
• 56:09
  Speaker 1: on Split Sider, by a great writer who I think
• 56:12
  Speaker 1: is at the New Yorker. Now we know what she does.
• 56:14
  Speaker 1: Her name is Blithe Robertson, and she's great, and she
• 56:18
  Speaker 1: wrote this pretty comprehensive piece on a number of the
• 56:21
  Speaker 1: reasons why it's not a feminist masterpiece. But one thing
• 56:27
  Speaker 1: I learned from reading that was that in the original ending,
• 56:31
  Speaker 1: Nora Fron and Rob Ryner had them just stay friends,
• 56:35
  Speaker 1: that would have been a toxic friendship. Well, I would
• 56:39
  Speaker 1: have liked that ending so much more because and that's
• 56:43
  Speaker 1: another problem with Sally, for me, it's like she, the
• 56:45
  Speaker 1: version of Sally I have in my head wouldn't end
• 56:48
  Speaker 1: up with him. I think the version of Sally and
• 56:50
  Speaker 1: my head would stay his friend. But even then stop
• 56:54
  Speaker 1: answering texts after a while, ghost on him kind of
• 56:59
  Speaker 1: fired by the movie. Well, we were talking about this
• 57:02
  Speaker 1: kind of recently, about like how do you remove yourself
• 57:06
  Speaker 1: from a friendship that is just like, oh, this is
• 57:11
  Speaker 1: like a very negative thing in my life. Like that
• 57:13
  Speaker 1: seems like the more realistic problem for them to have
• 57:17
  Speaker 1: to deal with of Like, clearly they have a connection,
• 57:22
  Speaker 1: they have history. I get that their friends. Even then
• 57:26
  Speaker 1: I'm like the friendship that's got to end at some
• 57:28
  Speaker 1: point or change because it too is very toxic. Well,
• 57:33
  Speaker 1: like with a lot of Hollywood movies, there's a huge
• 57:37
  Speaker 1: emphasis placed on the romantic relationship and making sure it
• 57:42
  Speaker 1: works out, so they have to end up together at
• 57:45
  Speaker 1: the end, and even if it doesn't make sense for
• 57:47
  Speaker 1: the story or the characters. And I would have loved
• 57:50
  Speaker 1: for it to have them not end up at the
• 57:52
  Speaker 1: end because it would have proved his theory wrong because
• 57:57
  Speaker 1: it's wrong. It's confusing to me because it's like I
• 58:01
  Speaker 1: have to feel to keep my world afloat. I have
• 58:05
  Speaker 1: to feel that Nora fron knew this, knew that this
• 58:09
  Speaker 1: message is a commercial message and not true to anything,
• 58:13
  Speaker 1: because she nor Everyone's fucking cool and she she was
• 58:17
  Speaker 1: subtweeting before Twitter existed. She's the most passive aggressive person
• 58:21
  Speaker 1: in the entire history of the world. But so god
• 58:25
  Speaker 1: because she was married to Carl Bernstein of Woodward and Bernstein.
• 58:30
  Speaker 1: He completely fucked her over, you know, cheated on her
• 58:34
  Speaker 1: all this horrible stuff, and then she spent years just
• 58:38
  Speaker 1: subtweeting him via very high grossing movies and like it's
• 58:43
  Speaker 1: great and I love it. Like her, like core Tenant
• 58:46
  Speaker 1: is that everything is copied, and so she, you know,
• 58:49
  Speaker 1: a bit bit of a bridge burner in terms of like, well,
• 58:51
  Speaker 1: if you fuck me over, go to the movie theater
• 58:53
  Speaker 1: in a year and a half and you can see
• 58:55
  Speaker 1: how much I hate you. But that to me, I'm like,
• 58:58
  Speaker 1: that's cool. That's nor A fron in a in a
• 59:02
  Speaker 1: crew cut lady kind of way. It was very punk rock.
• 59:05
  Speaker 1: I didn't know that much about her, so I like, yeah,
• 59:07
  Speaker 1: it's a great documentary. Better on if you if you
• 59:09
  Speaker 1: can convince your little brother to give you his HBO
• 59:13
  Speaker 1: go password check it out. That's my advice to blanket advice. Hey,
• 59:17
  Speaker 1: you don't have a little brother too bad, get one
• 59:19
  Speaker 1: brow up, make sure he gets an HBO Go password,
• 59:22
  Speaker 1: and then steal it from him. Yeah, your little brother
• 59:24
  Speaker 1: probably has student discounts that my little brother has. Well.
• 59:29
  Speaker 1: This movie also sort of perpetuates this idea that sex
• 59:33
  Speaker 1: is going to complicate everything in a friendship, which sure,
• 59:36
  Speaker 1: I'm sure it does in some cases, and I'm sure
• 59:39
  Speaker 1: in other cases it doesn't. I know this from experience
• 59:44
  Speaker 1: where I've had friendships or like sort of butting romantic
• 59:48
  Speaker 1: relationships where we've had sex. Mom, I've had sex before.
• 59:56
  Speaker 1: She sorry, We're so sorry, but no. Um. I've had
• 1:00:01
  Speaker 1: like you know, budding romantic situations where I have had
• 1:00:06
  Speaker 1: sexual ill intercourse with that person sex and we ended
• 1:00:16
  Speaker 1: up not continuing to date, but we kept as friends,
• 1:00:19
  Speaker 1: like we didn't keep having sex. I have a number
• 1:00:22
  Speaker 1: of people I can say this about. Also, my best
• 1:00:26
  Speaker 1: friend of twelve or more years is a man who
• 1:00:31
  Speaker 1: I've never had sex with. Is it because he's gay?
• 1:00:36
  Speaker 1: To say it's not because he's not handsome? Because JT
• 1:00:39
  Speaker 1: is so handsome. Check out his episode about Twilight Hot Babe,
• 1:00:44
  Speaker 1: on the loose lookout. Yeah, it's just this movie's operating
• 1:00:48
  Speaker 1: by these like very archaic standards and and and it's like,
• 1:00:54
  Speaker 1: there's no excuse for it, but I'm gonna try and
• 1:00:56
  Speaker 1: make one like even if they acknowledged inside of that
• 1:01:02
  Speaker 1: very narrow minded ideology. But we're not saying that that
• 1:01:07
  Speaker 1: no man and woman can ever be friends. But sometimes
• 1:01:10
  Speaker 1: it can blow up a friendship, which is not as
• 1:01:13
  Speaker 1: fun a thesis statement to make, so you can't do it.
• 1:01:18
  Speaker 1: But it's like, you know, obviously we've all had friendships
• 1:01:22
  Speaker 1: that have been obliterated by by making an a mean
• 1:01:26
  Speaker 1: sexual intercourse. But then there's other friendships where you're just like, oh,
• 1:01:32
  Speaker 1: that was weird. Let's let's go back to never doing
• 1:01:35
  Speaker 1: that anymore. Spoken from life right, ripped from the pages
• 1:01:41
  Speaker 1: of my own life. Hey, coming, coming from coming to
• 1:01:47
  Speaker 1: don't come with your friends or do whatever you want.
• 1:01:52
  Speaker 1: I mean, my most of my problems with the movie
• 1:01:54
  Speaker 1: are in like the first and last ten minutes, where
• 1:01:58
  Speaker 1: it sets you up to a in this very narrow minded,
• 1:02:01
  Speaker 1: completely not true to reality. You know, men be these
• 1:02:05
  Speaker 1: women be this, and then at the end they're like, well,
• 1:02:08
  Speaker 1: in spite of men be this women be this, men
• 1:02:11
  Speaker 1: be this, and women be this, and now they are
• 1:02:14
  Speaker 1: fucking and it's just like, well they get married like
• 1:02:17
  Speaker 1: four months later some worship. No way does that marriage
• 1:02:21
  Speaker 1: work out or it does, and they're fucking miserable, like
• 1:02:25
  Speaker 1: there's no way that marriage works out well in context
• 1:02:30
  Speaker 1: this movie came out. What that's I guess people. I mean,
• 1:02:34
  Speaker 1: people are still getting married for dumb, dumb fucking reasons today,
• 1:02:38
  Speaker 1: but more so than I don't know, Yeah, I just
• 1:02:40
  Speaker 1: feel like this movie it's weird because Nora Efron is
• 1:02:45
  Speaker 1: everything that this movie is not communicating. I mean, I
• 1:02:50
  Speaker 1: don't know a whole lot about the influence of the
• 1:02:54
  Speaker 1: studio kind of thing about this movie. But you know,
• 1:02:58
  Speaker 1: sometimes there's like, well they have to end up together
• 1:03:01
  Speaker 1: because Hollywood. I think that's why the ending changed. Yeah,
• 1:03:05
  Speaker 1: but that's still there's there's still like what they set
• 1:03:08
  Speaker 1: you up with at the beginning, Like I didn't remember
• 1:03:11
  Speaker 1: how weird the documentary part is like with that, you're
• 1:03:15
  Speaker 1: just like, oh, women, but they're just they they're not
• 1:03:18
  Speaker 1: really participants in this often not at all. Right, Uh,
• 1:03:23
  Speaker 1: did we talk about Carrie Fisher at all? We did, Yes,
• 1:03:25
  Speaker 1: We mostly just talked about how her entire existence is
• 1:03:29
  Speaker 1: framed around the men that she's involved with, first the
• 1:03:33
  Speaker 1: guy who won't leave his wife for her, and then Jess. Oh,
• 1:03:37
  Speaker 1: and I had a real problem with the scene where
• 1:03:40
  Speaker 1: she bonds with Jess because she read and quoted back
• 1:03:45
  Speaker 1: to him something he had written. It makes no sense
• 1:03:47
  Speaker 1: about theater and restaurants, and yeah, I was annoyed that, Like,
• 1:03:52
  Speaker 1: it would be great if she came up with an
• 1:03:54
  Speaker 1: opinion on her own and then he had also the
• 1:03:58
  Speaker 1: same opinion, and that's how they bond did. But she
• 1:04:00
  Speaker 1: was just like, here's the thing I'm going to say.
• 1:04:03
  Speaker 1: I read it in a magazine. He's like, I wrote
• 1:04:06
  Speaker 1: that in that magazine. She's like, let me come for you. Right.
• 1:04:12
  Speaker 1: Everyone in this movie could be doing much better, except
• 1:04:16
  Speaker 1: for Harry, who should have died at some point in
• 1:04:20
  Speaker 1: Act one and then we could have experienced something less toxic.
• 1:04:25
  Speaker 1: And Harry is such a horrible character, and it's not
• 1:04:28
  Speaker 1: even worth discussing all the ways in which he's horrible.
• 1:04:31
  Speaker 1: They're not compatible. It drives me nuts. In their where
• 1:04:35
  Speaker 1: there's a woman and then there's a man near her,
• 1:04:39
  Speaker 1: and they're long enough, he literally wears her down, and
• 1:04:43
  Speaker 1: they're like, isn't this romantic and you're just like no.
• 1:04:48
  Speaker 1: So often, you see, you have no idea why two
• 1:04:52
  Speaker 1: characters like or love each other, apart from the fact
• 1:04:56
  Speaker 1: that they both want to suck each other and they
• 1:04:57
  Speaker 1: just happened to be near each other quite a bit.
• 1:05:00
  Speaker 1: Like well, their names are in the time, so it's
• 1:05:03
  Speaker 1: just so often that no time is spent developing their
• 1:05:06
  Speaker 1: relationship and why they might be compatible. To me, Harry
• 1:05:10
  Speaker 1: and Sally they make no sense together. They have widely
• 1:05:13
  Speaker 1: different personalities and takes on life, and it makes no
• 1:05:19
  Speaker 1: sense why they'd somehow be soulmates or whatever. I think
• 1:05:24
  Speaker 1: Harry needs to be passed away in Act one, but
• 1:05:29
  Speaker 1: I also think that, you know, realistically, it's like that's
• 1:05:32
  Speaker 1: someone that you've got. He's got to find like a
• 1:05:34
  Speaker 1: really like aggressive partner who will just fucking steamroll him
• 1:05:39
  Speaker 1: and put him in his place, because otherwise he's just
• 1:05:41
  Speaker 1: going to be an asshole all the time like he
• 1:05:44
  Speaker 1: is to Sally. Sally needs someone who I don't know
• 1:05:48
  Speaker 1: what is she Well, we don't know anything about it, really,
• 1:05:50
  Speaker 1: so right to say, well, who she should be with.
• 1:05:53
  Speaker 1: A better version of this movie would be if Harry,
• 1:05:55
  Speaker 1: if they met thus the title Act one, Harry dies
• 1:06:01
  Speaker 1: in a tragic choking accident. Maybe he tries some of
• 1:06:06
  Speaker 1: her apple pie with strawberry ice cream on it, and
• 1:06:09
  Speaker 1: he's like, oh god, it's so just and then chokes
• 1:06:12
  Speaker 1: and dies. And then someone's like, I'll have what he's having.
• 1:06:17
  Speaker 1: And then she's like, oh, I'm a journalist. Let me
• 1:06:22
  Speaker 1: pursue this career. And then the whole movie is about
• 1:06:25
  Speaker 1: her life as a journalist. I just ya trying to
• 1:06:30
  Speaker 1: about her, to uncover who Deep Throat is or who
• 1:06:36
  Speaker 1: the whole Nixon's I know it's not the right era, listen,
• 1:06:41
  Speaker 1: but talking about Nixon is gonna be triggering for Nora
• 1:06:44
  Speaker 1: Avron because she was married to Carl Bernstein. That's what
• 1:06:46
  Speaker 1: I'm saying. That you got to leave Nixon out of
• 1:06:49
  Speaker 1: unless unless she felt But I'm actually prepared to write
• 1:06:53
  Speaker 1: what you wrote. You would know about what if she
• 1:06:56
  Speaker 1: You would be great if Nora Evron hated Carl Bernstein
• 1:07:00
  Speaker 1: so much that she wrote a whole screenplay that was
• 1:07:03
  Speaker 1: like Nixon was good and what word of Burnsney never
• 1:07:07
  Speaker 1: should have done those things that they did. Karl Bursney sucks.
• 1:07:14
  Speaker 1: I'll do that for her, yeah, Pour one out for Hey,
• 1:07:19
  Speaker 1: do you want to write the movie? Yeah, I'm gonna
• 1:07:22
  Speaker 1: give it to I know, I know, I know, I'm
• 1:07:26
  Speaker 1: gonna give it too because I love Nora Efron so much.
• 1:07:29
  Speaker 1: I think that Sally has potential, like extreme potential as
• 1:07:34
  Speaker 1: a character that we should know more about, and has
• 1:07:38
  Speaker 1: all the you know, she's like a rough outline of
• 1:07:41
  Speaker 1: a good female character with no shading or color or
• 1:07:44
  Speaker 1: other art metaphors. So I'll give it to uh Carrie
• 1:07:48
  Speaker 1: Fisher rest in Paradise. Her character stinks though, and like Crystal,
• 1:07:53
  Speaker 1: is a toxic a piece of garbage. But boy, can
• 1:07:55
  Speaker 1: the man host an oscar ceremony? I give it to
• 1:07:59
  Speaker 1: They are Nora friends, dead nipples. I didn't assign my
• 1:08:04
  Speaker 1: nipples to anyone. Wait, um, now is my chance? You
• 1:08:08
  Speaker 1: just got the one though? Right? I gave it one nipple.
• 1:08:11
  Speaker 1: It belongs to Alice, who gets almost no screen time.
• 1:08:17
  Speaker 1: We barely even know who she is. Why is she
• 1:08:21
  Speaker 1: even there? I mean great that there's another female character.
• 1:08:25
  Speaker 1: Does she only ever talk about men? Yes? Like literally only. Also,
• 1:08:31
  Speaker 1: we concluded that the movie does not pass the Bechdel tests.
• 1:08:34
  Speaker 1: It doesn't. I have no argument. Yeah, I was a
• 1:08:37
  Speaker 1: few scenes where I was like, well they talk about
• 1:08:39
  Speaker 1: her wedding dress or they talk about I don't know.
• 1:08:43
  Speaker 1: I was so like frustrated by the time, I was like,
• 1:08:46
  Speaker 1: it's a head or a wedding all right, Well that
• 1:08:51
  Speaker 1: has been our episode in that was when barely met Naomi, right,
• 1:08:58
  Speaker 1: and then when when Jamie showed up an hour late
• 1:09:05
  Speaker 1: in this one. But even though we didn't really intersect,
• 1:09:10
  Speaker 1: we still had a great time. I've had a great
• 1:09:13
  Speaker 1: time here today. I look forward to listening to it. Yeah,
• 1:09:16
  Speaker 1: you can follow us the Betel Cast on social media
• 1:09:20
  Speaker 1: at backtel Cast, on Twitter, on Instagram. And if you
• 1:09:27
  Speaker 1: like our episodes, if you want to really alleviate some
• 1:09:31
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• 1:09:36
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• 1:09:39
  Speaker 1: us some money on our PayPal, it would really help
• 1:09:41
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• 1:09:44
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• 1:09:48
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• 1:09:53
  Speaker 1: between a couple and eight thousand would really do a
• 1:09:57
  Speaker 1: lot for us. No, but we we appreciate it. Thank
• 1:10:00
  Speaker 1: you to everyone who has donated to set up a
• 1:10:03
  Speaker 1: recurring donation and thanks for your little notes. We've gotten
• 1:10:07
  Speaker 1: a little notes from people who have been like I
• 1:10:09
  Speaker 1: love the cats, keep it up. Yeah, So thank you
• 1:10:13
  Speaker 1: all right, Jamie, thanks for being here. Oh my god.
• 1:10:17
  Speaker 1: We'll see you next time. By