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The Underground Alien Base Conspiracy Beneath New Mexico · Aliens? Yes! But Maybe No | UFOs, UAPs & Alien Mysteries

• 0:03
  Josh: Aliens.
• 0:04
  Travis: Aliens.
• 0:05
  Travis: Yes.
• 0:08
  Travis: But maybe no.
• 0:10
  Travis: Heidi ho, Alienos.
• 0:21
  Travis: Welcome back to the show.
• 0:23
  Travis: Aliens, yes, but maybe no with Josh and Travis.
• 0:26
  Travis: I'm Travis.
• 0:27
  Travis: I'm Josh.
• 0:28
  Travis: And this is an otherworldly podcast as ambiguous as our title.
• 0:33
  Travis: Alien Renos?
• 0:34
  Travis: Alien Renos?
• 0:36
  Travis: Never heard that yet.
• 0:37
  Travis: Yeah.
• 0:37
  Travis: We haven't really discussed about what maybe listeners of our show might call themselves.
• 0:42
  Travis: So kind of like, you want to give yourself a nickname before someone else gives one to you?
• 0:47
  Travis: Because that always sticks, right?
• 0:49
  Travis: Yeah.
• 0:49
  Travis: My nickname was Cool Guy Jones in high school, and that's stuck.
• 0:54
  Travis: They still call me that on the street.
• 0:55
  Travis: They're like, yay, it's cool guy Jones.
• 0:57
  Travis: And then I give high fives.
• 0:59
  Travis: Interesting.
• 1:00
  Travis: Yep.
• 1:00
  Travis: Things are pretty great for me publicly.
• 1:03
  Travis: Yep.
• 1:04
  Josh: Kind of like Swifties or The Beyhive.
• 1:07
  Travis: Yeah.
• 1:08
  Travis: Yeah.
• 1:08
  Travis: The Taylor Swift uh gave her fans that name, I'm sure.
• 1:11
  Travis: You gotta do it, or else you end up being called something else.
• 1:14
  Josh: Ariana Grande's the Arianators.
• 1:17
  Travis: Oh, is that true?
• 1:18
  Josh: Mm-hmm.
• 1:18
  Travis: Pretty good.
• 1:19
  Travis: That's a pretty good one.
• 1:20
  Josh: Yeah.
• 1:20
  Josh: Lady Gaga's is little monsters.
• 1:23
  Travis: That's pretty cool though.
• 1:24
  Josh: But I I like it.
• 1:25
  Josh: Ail say what was it again?
• 1:27
  Travis: Alien Renos.
• 1:28
  Travis: Aliarinos.
• 1:29
  Travis: I'll use it.
• 1:31
  Travis: Okay.
• 1:32
  Travis: Cool, cool.
• 1:33
  Travis: Uh spoiler alert, what I said before is not true.
• 1:37
  Travis: I've been pushing it really hard to be called cool guy Jones.
• 1:40
  Travis: Never stuck.
• 1:41
  Josh: Oh, wow.
• 1:42
  Josh: That's really sad.
• 1:44
  Travis: Yeah.
• 1:44
  Travis: Maybe this time though it will.
• 1:46
  Josh: Not that it hasn't happened, but that you're pushing it so hard.
• 1:49
  Travis: Yeah, it's a little embarrassing.
• 1:52
  Josh: So today we are going to talk about the Dulce base.
• 1:56
  Josh: Mm-hmm.
• 1:57
  Josh: Dulce.
• 1:58
  Josh: I hadn't heard about this.
• 1:59
  Josh: I hadn't either, of course.
• 2:01
  Josh: Yeah.
• 2:02
  Josh: And when I did finally look into it, I was blown away about how in-depth and deep this is.
• 2:08
  Josh: And yeah, it's gonna be a fun one.
• 2:10
  Josh: Stick around for the end.
• 2:12
  Josh: We have a quiz.
• 2:13
  Josh: That's when we find out about our next topic.
• 2:15
  Josh: And then right before that, we will read some positive reviews.
• 2:19
  Josh: But yeah, we're gonna do the duel say base.
• 2:22
  Josh: I didn't know it was actually called duel say.
• 2:25
  Josh: I was saying Dulce the entire time I was doing my reading and studying.
• 2:28
  Josh: And then right before I did this, I watched a little video and they said it, and I was like, oh, so it's really hard for me to say Dulce.
• 2:35
  Josh: Yeah, we talked about it last week.
• 2:37
  Josh: I don't remember last night.
• 2:39
  Travis: We I played like a clip and we're like, yeah, it's Dulce, not Dulce or Dulce.
• 2:43
  Josh: Yeah.
• 2:44
  Travis: Dulce.
• 2:45
  Josh: So today we're heading to Dulce, New Mexico.
• 2:48
  Travis: Correctomundo.
• 2:50
  Josh: It's a tiny town on the Hickoria Apache reservation with less than 3,000 people, tucked away among mesas, forests, and empty deserts.
• 2:58
  Josh: Over the last few decades, Dulce has turned into one of the most famous spots in UFO conspiracy culture.
• 3:04
  Josh: Legend says there's a massive underground base hidden under Archuleta Mesa right near town.
• 3:10
  Josh: Supposedly, this place has multiple levels for military projects, working with aliens, genetic experiments, psychic research, and high-tech programs involving both humans and extraterrestrials.
• 3:22
  Josh: With a mix of government secrets, environmental worries, UFO sightings, indigenous stories about star people, and rumors of underground activity all blurred into one, Dualsay is one of the biggest conspiracy theories in the UFO world today.
• 3:36
  Josh: Today, we're looking at how the story started, the people who built it, the wild claims about the base, and the real history that keeps this legend going.
• 3:46
  Josh: Whoa.
• 3:47
  Josh: Mm-hmm.
• 3:48
  Travis: Big day.
• 3:49
  Travis: Big story, and potentially a big base.
• 3:52
  Travis: Big day and Dulce, you might say.
• 3:55
  Travis: Hey.
• 3:56
  Travis: So we're gonna get into some stuff now that's kind of gross.
• 4:01
  Travis: Yeah.
• 4:01
  Travis: Like really gross.
• 4:03
  Travis: Some cattle mutilations, a trooper by the name of Gabe Valdez.
• 4:08
  Travis: Heard of him?
• 4:09
  Travis: If not, research.
• 4:10
  Travis: Look into it.
• 4:11
  Travis: Maybe not.
• 4:11
  Travis: I mean, I'm just learning about Dulsay.
• 4:14
  Travis: So despite rumors of the base existing since 1930, the Dulce story gained momentum during the 1970s when northern New Mexico became heavily associated with cattle mutilation reports where ranchers discovered dead livestock under unusual conditions.
• 4:29
  Travis: Sounds like a chupacabra.
• 4:32
  Travis: Could could be.
• 4:33
  Travis: Yeah.
• 4:34
  Travis: Animals were found with precise incisions, removed organs, and no visible blood at the scene.
• 4:40
  Travis: The report spread across multiple states, but Dulce became one of the central locations tied to the phenomena.
• 4:48
  Travis: One of the primary investigators was New Mexico State Police Officer Gabe Valdez.
• 4:53
  Travis: Valdez took the report seriously and spent years documenting mutilation cases, interviewing ranchers, and examining physical evidence.
• 5:00
  Travis: During several investigations, Valdez reportedly discovered unusual items near the carcasses, including gas masks, radar chaff, glow sticks, and military-style debris.
• 5:11
  Travis: Some cattle allegedly carried fluorescent chemical markings visible under ultraviolet light.
• 5:16
  Travis: One of the strangest stories connected to Valdez involved the alleged discovery of a small hybrid-like fetus inside a dead cow.
• 5:25
  Travis: The creature reportedly resembled a combination of human, amphibian, and primate features.
• 5:32
  Travis: The account spread rapidly through UFO circles and became part of the larger dual-say mythology.
• 5:37
  Travis: Over time, Valdez and later his son, Greg Valdez, began leaning toward a more grounded explanation involving covert government monitoring operations connected to radiation, contamination, and environmental testing.
• 5:50
  Travis: What was it we talked about?
• 5:52
  Travis: Was it last week or the week before?
• 5:53
  Travis: How there was a group of aliens that were creating human-animal hybrids.
• 6:01
  Josh: I think that was the quiz for this one.
• 6:03
  Travis: Oh dear God.
• 6:04
  Josh: I mean, it's possible.
• 6:06
  Josh: It's all part of the lowered mythology of this base.
• 6:10
  Josh: What guys were those?
• 6:11
  Josh: We'll get to that.
• 6:13
  Travis: Bad guys.
• 6:14
  Travis: You don't want to give away the dead cow when you can get the dead fetus inside for free?
• 6:18
  Travis: Yeah.
• 6:19
  Travis: Good.
• 6:19
  Travis: Perfect.
• 6:20
  Josh: I think it was on the Wi-Files episode in the 70s.
• 6:24
  Josh: There was about 8,000 reported cattle mutilations in New Mexico.
• 6:28
  Travis: Yeah, this was the 70s.
• 6:30
  Travis: This is like that's a lot during and leading up to the peak satanic panic.
• 6:35
  Josh: I've never heard of that.
• 6:36
  Travis: Oh shit.
• 6:37
  Travis: Yeah, it was like a big deal in the 70s and 80s with like ACDC and Black Sabbath, these heavy metal bands and their fans like dressing in black.
• 6:48
  Travis: And people thought they were out there worshiping Satan, listening to satanic music.
• 6:53
  Travis: Iron Maiden, if you look at a lot of the artwork from that time, there's like a lot of religious iconography on it, a lot of demon artwork, a lot of bones.
• 7:04
  Travis: Yeah.
• 7:04
  Travis: Pretty cool shit.
• 7:06
  Travis: Inspired a lot of very cool normal people to put that style of artwork on the side of their vans.
• 7:11
  Travis: They're very cool vans.
• 7:12
  Travis: You should look it up.
• 7:13
  Travis: Satanic panic.
• 7:14
  Travis: So you're saying all these 8,000 cows were mutilated by music fans?
• 7:19
  Travis: No, I'm just saying that was the that was the time.
• 7:22
  Travis: This is like right in that sweet spot of the satanic panic when people were finding rabbits and cows and all sorts of farm animals mutilated, drained of their blood, and they thought it was part of a satanic, like religious rite.
• 7:37
  Josh: Well, these ones are weird.
• 7:38
  Josh: These specific cow mutilations, the carcass doesn't decompose like it should.
• 7:43
  Josh: It just sits there.
• 7:44
  Josh: The blood doesn't coagulate after death, which is weird.
• 7:48
  Josh: The remaining blood, it's usually drained of majority of blood.
• 7:51
  Josh: And then the insects and scavenger animals don't eat it.
• 7:56
  Josh: And then they have found missing things after the fact.
• 8:01
  Travis: Wait, they don't eat it?
• 8:02
  Travis: So what are you what do you know, Josh?
• 8:04
  Travis: Well, they what you should have said was they didn't eat it because we're talking past tense, but you're saying don't, like they're still happening.
• 8:10
  Travis: Maybe you know something.
• 8:12
  Josh: Are is this Yeah, cattle mutilations still happen?
• 8:15
  Josh: Is this what you do during the week?
• 8:17
  Josh: I yeah.
• 8:19
  Josh: No, I wouldn't even know what to do.
• 8:22
  Josh: I if I was face to face with a cow, I would be scared.
• 8:26
  Travis: I think they're sweet, except for the main ones.
• 8:28
  Josh: Yeah, I've been around main ones.
• 8:30
  Josh: I've been attacked by a bull.
• 8:32
  Josh: I was able to get away, but scary stuff, man.
• 8:36
  Travis: You've been aggressed by a bull.
• 8:37
  Josh: I have.
• 8:38
  Josh: That's a weird thing to start this whole thing.
• 8:40
  Josh: But we're gonna get to Project Gas Buggy and nuclear testing near Dulce.
• 8:45
  Josh: Part of why people find the Dulce story so compelling is that there are actually some major secret underground government activity happening right nearby.
• 8:55
  Josh: Back on December 10th, 1967, the Atomic Energy Commission ran something called Project Gas Buggy, just southwest of Dulce.
• 9:03
  Josh: This is all part of Project Plowshare.
• 9:06
  Josh: So we got Gas Buggy and Plowshare.
• 9:08
  Josh: Those are funny names.
• 9:09
  Travis: Well, plowshare is like a farm term.
• 9:12
  Travis: So that's funny.
• 9:13
  Josh: It sounds like uh a new app you have to download at work to share documents.
• 9:19
  Travis: Oh yeah, it totally does.
• 9:22
  Josh: So this was all part of Project Plowshare, which was basically the government's attempt to see if they could use nuclear explosions for industrial jobs.
• 9:30
  Josh: Smart, right?
• 9:31
  Josh: No.
• 9:32
  Josh: The idea was to set off a nuke deep underground to crack the rock and help get a trapped natural gas.
• 9:38
  Travis: Do you want to know what a plow share is?
• 9:40
  Travis: Yeah.
• 9:40
  Travis: I just looked it up really quick.
• 9:42
  Travis: A plow share is the cutting blade on a plow that breaks and turns over the top layer of soil.
• 9:48
  Travis: It is often considered the business end of a plow.
• 9:51
  Travis: I'm more interested in the party end of the Yeah, I don't like I don't want to, but the business end that's so boring.
• 9:57
  Travis: Ugh.
• 9:58
  Josh: Come on, relax.
• 10:00
  Travis: Yeah.
• 10:00
  Josh: So they detonated this device about 4,000 feet down.
• 10:04
  Josh: It worked in terms of releasing the gas, but there was a catch.
• 10:07
  Josh: The gas ended up being radioactive, making it totally useless for anything commercial.
• 10:12
  Josh: Who to thunk?
• 10:13
  Josh: So because of that, the feds had to keep monitoring the site for a long time afterward.
• 10:18
  Josh: Greg Valdez later theorized that some of those cattle mutilations might have actually been covert government teams grabbing tissue samples from cows that were exposed to the radiation.
• 10:27
  Josh: It's a theory that actually makes sense of why people were seeing military gear, weird chemicals, and unmarked helicopters hanging around the local ranches.
• 10:36
  Josh: The crossover between actual nuclear tests and unexplained events gave the Dulce legend a real-world foundation that's way harder to dismiss than just pure speculation.
• 10:47
  Josh: Going into this, there's like a little bit of like realness and then a little bit of maybe that's crazy.
• 10:55
  Travis: I mean, it's all pretty wild.
• 10:56
  Travis: It is.
• 10:57
  Travis: Oh, everything around us.
• 10:59
  Josh: I mean, just this being a true story of using nukes to mine, that's insane.
• 11:05
  Josh: They should have known better.
• 11:07
  Travis: They should.
• 11:08
  Travis: Why did they not?
• 11:09
  Josh: Because it was 1967.
• 11:11
  Travis: Yeah, they just were idiots then.
• 11:12
  Travis: Their shiny new nuclear tool.
• 11:14
  Travis: Mm-hmm.
• 11:15
  Travis: All right, so let's talk about Paul Benowitz and government disinformation.
• 11:20
  Travis: The story really took off in the late 70s and early 80s, thanks to a guy named Paul Benowitz.
• 11:27
  Travis: Benowitz was a physicist who ran an electronics company right next to Kirkland Air Force Base.
• 11:32
  Travis: Wait a second, Costco?
• 11:33
  Travis: Kurt Kirtland.
• 11:34
  Travis: Kirtland.
• 11:35
  Travis: Kirtland Air Force Base in Albuquerque.
• 11:38
  Travis: Since he was so close, he kept seeing weird lights in the sky and picking up strange electronic signals on his gear.
• 11:45
  Travis: He was convinced he'd stumbled onto aliens operating out of secret underground spots in New Mexico, specifically a base right under Archuleta Mesa near Dulce.
• 11:54
  Travis: He started putting together massive files of recordings and notes, which eventually caught the eye of the Air Force Office of Special Investigations, also known as AFSOI.
• 12:03
  Travis: I'm sure there's a pronunciation for that.
• 12:05
  Travis: A Fosy.
• 12:06
  Travis: A Fossey?
• 12:08
  Travis: Fossey, I don't know.
• 12:09
  Travis: I don't either.
• 12:10
  Travis: Years later, an agent named Richard Dodie actually admitted they ran a total psy-op on Benowitz.
• 12:15
  Travis: Boo.
• 12:16
  Travis: Yeah, that's fucked.
• 12:18
  Travis: They fed him fake UFO documents and made up stories just to keep him from looking at the real classified military tech they were testing nearby.
• 12:25
  Travis: Benowitz fell deep into paranoia and eventually had a major breakdown because of what the government was doing to him.
• 12:31
  Travis: God damn.
• 12:32
  Josh: I get it.
• 12:33
  Josh: I would too.
• 12:34
  Travis: Yeah, just being gaslit.
• 12:36
  Travis: Yeah.
• 12:36
  Travis: Yeah, that sucks.
• 12:37
  Josh: Like a conspiracy theorist being messed with.
• 12:40
  Josh: I mean, that's worst case scenario.
• 12:42
  Travis: Yeah, becoming the focal point of a conspiracy.
• 12:45
  Josh: And no one probably believed him.
• 12:47
  Travis: No, no.
• 12:48
  Travis: This is a huge part of the legend because it's proof that US intelligence was actively using UFO stories to cover their tracks during the Cold War.
• 12:55
  Travis: Because these kinds of lies, things get muddy when talking about UFOs and government cover-ups.
• 12:59
  Travis: So they were trying to hide shit that was going down militarily Cold War related, right?
• 13:06
  Travis: And they used UFO sightings as a cover.
• 13:09
  Travis: They're just like, yep, we're just going to keep doing what we're doing.
• 13:12
  Travis: It's definitely aliens, man.
• 13:14
  Travis: You're seeing aliens, not us out here doing little tests.
• 13:19
  Josh: I don't know.
• 13:19
  Josh: It's hard because Richard Doty is like the elite disinformation person.
• 13:25
  Josh: So it's really hard because he's flip-flopped back and forth so many times.
• 13:30
  Josh: He's written books and then taken back and then said, I worked with this person.
• 13:35
  Josh: And then he'll say, No, I didn't really work with that.
• 13:37
  Josh: Like he's just, he's chaos.
• 13:39
  Josh: He'll double bluff, triple bluff, quadruple bluff.
• 13:42
  Josh: I just I can't trust him if he says something.
• 13:45
  Josh: And if he says, Yeah, we were messing with him.
• 13:48
  Josh: I don't know.
• 13:49
  Josh: It's the princess bride with the poison kind of thing.
• 13:53
  Travis: Yeah, but he was running through all of these political strategies.
• 13:56
  Travis: He's like, Well, you know, I'm a man.
• 13:57
  Travis: You'd want to put the poison as far away from you as possible, but you'd also know that death is inevitable, so you're going to accept it and put it near me.
• 14:04
  Travis: And then you'd know you also don't get involved in a land war in Asia.
• 14:08
  Travis: So he's just running through all of these things, but the whole story ends with, They're both poison.
• 14:13
  Travis: It didn't matter.
• 14:14
  Travis: Yeah.
• 14:14
  Travis: He was just like being too smart for his own good and didn't think that there would be poison in both of the glasses.
• 14:21
  Josh: Well, Richard Doty is like, you have to think through all the things, and you're still not going to know the thing.
• 14:26
  Josh: But he's been involved with a lot of different people.
• 14:29
  Josh: Like you said, it makes it really muddy trying to figure out what's going on with all this.
• 14:36
  Travis: So tell me about this seven-layer Dulce burrito.
• 14:39
  Josh: So now we're going to get to the Duel Sai base.
• 14:41
  Josh: The absolute heart of this duel-say legend is the idea of a massive multi-story underground facility hidden deep inside Archoleta Mesa.
• 14:50
  Josh: Rumor has it that this place is a joint operation where humans and extraterrestrials work together on high-tech gear and biological tests.
• 14:58
  Josh: It's worth noting that the famous seven-level design actually came from the Thomas Costello papers.
• 15:04
  Josh: Thomas Costello claimed to be a former security officer who worked inside the facility before escaping with classified information.
• 15:12
  Josh: However, Thomas is a character likely invented for creative writing purposes by Thomas Alan Levesque, who went by the name Jason Bishop III.
• 15:21
  Josh: Holy inception.
• 15:24
  Travis: Interesting.
• 15:25
  Josh: Yeah.
• 15:25
  Josh: So I'm going to give you the level and then the function of that level or alleged activity.
• 15:30
  Josh: So level one, this is security administration, surface interface, management, and military checkpoints.
• 15:37
  Josh: Okay.
• 15:38
  Josh: Level two is human staff housing, living quarters for government scientists and military personnel.
• 15:44
  Josh: Level three is executive offices, administrative hubs, and liaison centers for cross-species coordination.
• 15:51
  Josh: Then we have level four, psychic research, studies and mind control, the human aura and telepathic applications.
• 15:58
  Josh: Then level five, alien housing.
• 16:02
  Josh: This is where the non-human entities, specifically the grays and reptilians, reside.
• 16:06
  Josh: Level six is the nightmare hall.
• 16:09
  Travis: Sounds like a good time.
• 16:11
  Josh: Genetic hybridization labs, human-animal, and human-alien crossbreeding.
• 16:16
  Josh: They also call it the zoo.
• 16:17
  Josh: And then level seven, this is the bottom level, is the cryogenic storage, cold storage for failed experiments and biological samples.
• 16:25
  Josh: So when someone says the dual sabes, this is what they're talking about.
• 16:29
  Josh: Many of the visual details tied to that nightmare hall, though, became connected to the testimony of Myrna Hansen, an alleged abductee who described underground laboratory imagery during a hypnotic regression session in 1980.
• 16:43
  Josh: And that one is pretty wild.
• 16:45
  Josh: She was able to remember everything through that.
• 16:47
  Josh: And she also remembered that there's an implant put in her spine at the base of her neck.
• 16:52
  Josh: And she remembered that through the hypnosis.
• 16:55
  Josh: And she went to some doctors, they found it.
• 16:58
  Josh: Oh shit.
• 16:59
  Josh: What did it look like?
• 17:00
  Josh: They didn't take it out, but they had the scans.
• 17:03
  Josh: It was just like this little dot.
• 17:05
  Josh: They didn't say what it was.
• 17:07
  Josh: They didn't really know.
• 17:08
  Josh: Maybe it was like a growth or something, but exactly where she remembers it in her hypnosis is where it was.
• 17:14
  Josh: And that helped some of the investigators believe a little bit more as well.
• 17:19
  Josh: Wild.
• 17:20
  Josh: But that would yeah, that one was just like, whoa.
• 17:22
  Travis: She's still with us?
• 17:23
  Travis: I'm not sure.
• 17:25
  Travis: She looks like she's been on this earth for a while.
• 17:29
  Travis: But maybe that's just how New Mexico people look.
• 17:32
  Josh: Dry sun.
• 17:33
  Travis: Yeah.
• 17:34
  Travis: Maybe.
• 17:34
  Travis: Hard, hot sun.
• 17:36
  Travis: Yeah.
• 17:36
  Travis: Okay.
• 17:37
  Travis: You want to talk about greys, reptilians?
• 17:40
  Travis: Yes, yes.
• 17:40
  Travis: And the underground hierarchy, Josh?
• 17:43
  Travis: Uh no.
• 17:44
  Travis: Okay.
• 17:44
  Travis: Yeah.
• 17:45
  Travis: Your improv skills are getting a little better.
• 17:47
  Travis: Thanks.
• 17:49
  Travis: Yeah.
• 17:49
  Travis: It took you a while to get to know, so that's good.
• 17:52
  Travis: Alright, so Dulce Legend eventually grew into a huge story about different alien species running things in a strict hierarchy right under the mesa.
• 18:01
  Travis: The greats focus on science, biological tests, and genetic experiments.
• 18:05
  Travis: They're the ones blamed for abductions and hybridization programs.
• 18:08
  Travis: Reptilians are the top of the food chain in most versions of the story.
• 18:11
  Travis: People describe them as bigger, super smart, and telepathic, basically running security and calling the shots for the whole facility.
• 18:19
  Travis: Some stories even split the reptilians into different classes, like the elite leaders and the warrior types who handle security.
• 18:26
  Travis: During the 1990s, Phil Schneider became one of the most recognizable public figures associated with the dual-say base story.
• 18:33
  Travis: Schneider claimed he was a government explosives engineer who helped build secret underground bases all over the US for 17 years.
• 18:41
  Travis: He says he worked in Black Project Underground bases at Area 51, S4, and Los Alamos.
• 18:48
  Travis: At the Preparedness Expo 96.
• 18:51
  Travis: Cool.
• 18:51
  Travis: That's a cool name.
• 18:52
  Travis: The Preparedness Expo?
• 18:54
  Travis: Yeah.
• 18:55
  Travis: Yeah, I'm sure it's just uh a great time.
• 18:58
  Josh: Oh yeah.
• 18:59
  Travis: He told a wild story about how his team accidentally tunneled right into an alien base under Archuleta Mesa in 1979.
• 19:07
  Travis: He claimed to be one of the only three survivors of the Dual Say War, where 66 government agents and workers lost their lives.
• 19:14
  Travis: Okay, that's a big sentence.
• 19:17
  Travis: Uh Schneider frequently displayed scars and physical injuries during his presentations as supporting evidence.
• 19:23
  Travis: He also claimed that underground facilities existed throughout the United States and that secret agreements between extraterrestrials and government agencies had existed for decades.
• 19:34
  Travis: His lecture spread widely through VHS recordings, classic, UFO conventions, and conspiracy media during the 1990s.
• 19:42
  Travis: Schneider died by suicide.
• 19:44
  Travis: Oh, that's sad.
• 19:45
  Travis: In 1996.
• 19:46
  Travis: But a lot of people in the conspiracy world don't buy it.
• 19:50
  Travis: Oh shit.
• 19:51
  Travis: They think his death was suspicious and tied right back to him talking about those underground bases and government secrets.
• 19:57
  Travis: Even though critics have poked holes in his background and some of the technical stuff he said, his story is now a huge, permanent part of the Dulce legend.
• 20:05
  Travis: Yeah.
• 20:06
  Travis: What a wild story.
• 20:08
  Travis: Like we've got a secret war.
• 20:10
  Josh: Mm-hmm.
• 20:11
  Travis: Perhaps a faked suicide.
• 20:13
  Josh: Yeah, he wasn't healthy around the time that he died, and he was going through cancer treatment.
• 20:20
  Josh: So he was very weak.
• 20:21
  Josh: He was in a wheelchair.
• 20:22
  Josh: Yeah.
• 20:22
  Josh: And he was hung.
• 20:25
  Josh: And there was like a cord wrapped around his neck three times.
• 20:28
  Josh: It just seems as though if someone like him, if he was wanting to commit suicide, there's a lot better ways to do that in the condition that he was in.
• 20:39
  Josh: Like he could barely walk.
• 20:40
  Josh: He had guns, he had enough medication in his house where he could have done it painlessly.
• 20:45
  Josh: So this just didn't check out a lot.
• 20:50
  Travis: I don't know.
• 20:50
  Travis: I think that when I have suffered through depression for much of my life, you can't say that any one way is how somebody is going to throw in the towel.
• 21:02
  Josh: Right.
• 21:03
  Travis: Because that just doesn't cross your mind.
• 21:05
  Travis: You don't think, well, I've got guns.
• 21:07
  Travis: That's the easiest way.
• 21:08
  Travis: Sometimes people will attempt and it's a cry for help.
• 21:14
  Travis: So they will get very close to the edge or do it in a way they know that somebody might at the last minute come and save them.
• 21:22
  Josh: Yeah.
• 21:22
  Josh: And if any listeners are in that mindset at all, I will link information in the show notes that will be very helpful.
• 21:31
  Josh: Sure.
• 21:31
  Travis: I mean, there's a lot of resources out there.
• 21:33
  Travis: Also, like talk to somebody.
• 21:35
  Josh: Yeah.
• 21:36
  Travis: That is as silly as it might seem and as vulnerable as you might become, talking to somebody really does help.
• 21:44
  Travis: I can say that from personal experience.
• 21:46
  Travis: It is a life changer.
• 21:48
  Josh: Yeah.
• 21:49
  Travis: Talk to your doctor, talk to somebody that is in your life that you are close to.
• 21:53
  Travis: It does not help to keep that inside that sucks.
• 21:58
  Travis: Sorry to be so inartificable.
• 21:59
  Travis: Articulate and say it sucks.
• 22:01
  Travis: Being depressed is very hard.
• 22:04
  Josh: Yeah.
• 22:04
  Josh: So Schneider did have a history of mental illness.
• 22:08
  Josh: There was a lot of things that he would show as evidence that didn't really pan out.
• 22:13
  Josh: One of the images that he would show in his conventions, in his speeches, was later found to be a screenshot from a movie.
• 22:20
  Josh: And he was saying that it was a photo from the base.
• 22:22
  Josh: And there was a lot of other things that just didn't really make sense.
• 22:26
  Josh: He said his dad was a certain person in the military and he was a Nazi soldier and was recruited and none of that checked out.
• 22:36
  Josh: So there's a lot of suspicion with his claims, but he is also not the only one claiming any of this, too.
• 22:42
  Josh: That's the weird thing.
• 22:43
  Josh: I'm going to hop over and talk about underground construction because you think if there was a huge base that we would know about it or we would see crews or anything.
• 22:54
  Josh: But part of what kept the Dulce story alive involved the existence of real experimental technology connected to the underground excavation.
• 23:02
  Josh: Researchers at Los Alamos National Laboratory explored concepts involving advanced tunneling systems known as subterrene machines.
• 23:11
  Josh: Rather than cutting through walk with traditional drilling methods, these systems theoretically use extreme heat to melt rock and create smooth tunnel walls lined with glass-like material.
• 23:21
  Josh: This tech gives a possible explanation for how massive underground facilities could theoretically exist without producing enormous amounts of visible excavation debris.
• 23:31
  Josh: So although no evidence confirms the existence of the Dulce base as described in conspiracy lore, real Cold War engineering projects help make the broader idea feel technically possible to many people following the story.
• 23:44
  Josh: And I mean, just having someone like Richard Dody involved makes me think that there may be something there.
• 23:51
  Josh: Sure.
• 23:52
  Josh: More than just surface level.
• 23:54
  Travis: Like you don't feel like he couldn't have just come up with this whole cloth.
• 23:57
  Travis: It had to be based on something.
• 23:59
  Travis: Sure.
• 23:59
  Travis: Yeah, that makes sense.
• 24:00
  Travis: We find that with a lot of people that get their stories or their wires crossed regarding a story mixed up, even now.
• 24:07
  Travis: Yeah.
• 24:08
  Travis: There's a lot of debunking that happens in real time, as people will do something as silly as posting a picture from ET, just like a quick little screen grab of that, and then it gets posted in the context of, well, this happened, you know, at this place.
• 24:23
  Travis: See, you look at these agents, they have guns, you know, or whatever.
• 24:26
  Travis: And then people are like, no, that's from E.T., man.
• 24:29
  Josh: Yeah.
• 24:29
  Josh: And now with AI, it's even more difficult.
• 24:32
  Travis: It's even harder.
• 24:33
  Josh: For sure.
• 24:34
  Travis: Okay.
• 24:34
  Travis: The Dulce story has lasted all these years because it blends real history with some super wild myths in a way that's impossible to totally pull apart.
• 24:43
  Travis: Would you agree with that?
• 24:44
  Travis: Yeah.
• 24:45
  Travis: Actual nuclear testing went down near duel say.
• 24:47
  Travis: The government was genuinely secretive about Cold War spy plane stuff all over New Mexico, right?
• 24:52
  Travis: But I believe that.
• 24:53
  Travis: Yeah.
• 24:54
  Travis: They really did run Psyop against UFO guys.
• 24:57
  Travis: A V.
• 24:58
  Travis: Oh, yep.
• 24:59
  Travis: And police genuinely investigated strange cattle mutilations in the area.
• 25:03
  Travis: Meanwhile, the whole underground base story blew up thanks to people claiming they were abducted, conspiracy media, supposed whistleblowers, and a constantly changing alien mythology.
• 25:13
  Travis: All that came together to create one of the biggest underground base theories we have in modern UFO culture.
• 25:20
  Josh: Yeah, Jordan, our researcher, when she was trying to nail down these notes in this story, it was kind of hard because she would go to one source and they would say one thing, and then she would go to another and that would be drastically different, or another would be just slightly different.
• 25:37
  Josh: Yeah.
• 25:38
  Josh: I mean, different enough to show that there is a constantly changing mythology.
• 25:44
  Travis: Yeah.
• 25:44
  Travis: I mean, couldn't you say that's kind of like a baseline for a lot of these stories that we've covered on this show?
• 25:50
  Travis: Um right?
• 25:51
  Travis: Like a lot there's a lot of like changing narratives that happen, especially when they're recorded years and years after an incident.
• 25:59
  Josh: Yeah, those ones I usually pay attention to, the ones that don't change at all.
• 26:04
  Josh: Like Rendelsham, I definitely think something happened more than when we first did that episode.
• 26:10
  Josh: But there was some things like we might go back and revisit that incident.
• 26:15
  Josh: Yeah.
• 26:15
  Josh: There was the thing where 20 years later he's like, Oh, and I have a notebook with all this binary.
• 26:21
  Josh: I'm just like, wait, what?
• 26:22
  Josh: Why is that just coming out now?
• 26:24
  Josh: That's weird.
• 26:25
  Travis: Yeah.
• 26:26
  Josh: And yeah, some things changed.
• 26:27
  Travis: But and why communicate in binary?
• 26:30
  Travis: I mean, it's it is what it is.
• 26:32
  Travis: It's just part of the mythology.
• 26:33
  Travis: Why do all these aliens speak in English?
• 26:35
  Travis: Is it because it's all in your mind and they're not communicating in English, but we see everything inside people's heads is a little differently?
• 26:43
  Travis: Like, did you know that there are people that can't picture an apple?
• 26:46
  Travis: If I were to say, picture a crisp red apple in your mind.
• 26:52
  Travis: People would not be able to picture that in their head.
• 26:55
  Josh: Yeah.
• 26:56
  Josh: So when it comes to aliens, yes, but maybe no, what do you think?
• 27:01
  Travis: Uh no, this doesn't.
• 27:02
  Travis: Big no no.
• 27:03
  Travis: Uh, this is a no for me, dog.
• 27:05
  Travis: I just there's there's so much tied up in this and so many differing story points that just don't line up for me.
• 27:14
  Travis: Sorry to say that again.
• 27:16
  Travis: And like it's a huge base.
• 27:19
  Travis: There should be some physical trace of it, right?
• 27:22
  Josh: I unless we're not allowed to get near enough.
• 27:26
  Travis: I know, but you gotta think like there are human beings that are involved in this, and unless they're just there's like somebody at the top operating security and it's his job to shoot everybody that comes out.
• 27:36
  Travis: I mean, you have to have a hundred percent success rate to keep that bottled up, right?
• 27:41
  Travis: And if something is this big and somebody was involved in something this big, it is too juicy of a story to tell.
• 27:49
  Travis: People cannot keep secrets, Josh.
• 27:51
  Travis: They can't.
• 27:52
  Josh: I mean, unless it's like the Manhattan Project, like you said, where they are forced to live there, like they can't leave.
• 27:57
  Josh: That would be interesting.
• 27:59
  Travis: Right, but that we know about it, and we know that that existed, and there are pictures of this town, and we have you know the nuclear age as a result of that.
• 28:08
  Travis: So that the that all got out.
• 28:11
  Josh: And we could be getting into the alien age, and this might be it getting out.
• 28:15
  Travis: Yeah, well, I mean, if you've listened to the show, we've never left the alien age, have we, yeah?
• 28:20
  Josh: I don't think so, but I kind of am with you on this.
• 28:22
  Josh: I'm gonna say no, no, closer to no, but still not 100% no, but it's a no.
• 28:29
  Josh: Okay.
• 28:30
  Josh: I'm sure there's bases.
• 28:31
  Josh: I mean, we know there's underground bases all over the world.
• 28:34
  Josh: Yeah.
• 28:35
  Josh: When it comes to the seven levels, and then also hearing who the source is from.
• 28:41
  Josh: The one thing is the Richard Doty misinformation guy.
• 28:44
  Josh: That's what's bumping it up, not from a hundred percent no.
• 28:48
  Josh: For him to be involved means something had to have been there.
• 28:52
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 28:53
  Josh: I don't necessarily think this Dulce base is a co-extraterrestrial human base.
• 28:59
  Josh: And I I have more faith in humanity.
• 29:02
  Josh: I I don't think humans are gonna feel good and let that happen with other humans.
• 29:08
  Travis: I would hope not, but there are, I mean, we live in a world of Ed Gaines and There's wackadoos, yeah, Charles Manson and people who like to see other people hurt and and suffer.
• 29:23
  Travis: So putting this beyond humans, I mean, we are capable of so much.
• 29:27
  Travis: You might even say we contain multitudes.
• 29:30
  Travis: There's so much about humanity that is so complex, and we can be so very cruel, but we can also create some very wonderful, beautiful things.
• 29:41
  Travis: You know, humans aren't a monolith.
• 29:43
  Travis: You can't describe uh humanity easily in like a one or two-word sentence, right?
• 29:51
  Travis: Yeah, you can't.
• 29:51
  Travis: Like people we've been trying to do that through art and literature for as long as humans have been alive and creating art and and literature and communicating.
• 30:01
  Travis: Like that's what philosophy is centered around.
• 30:04
  Travis: It's like trying to wrap our heads around existence and being alive.
• 30:07
  Josh: Yeah.
• 30:08
  Travis: Humanity could you would hope that there would be somebody there that would speak up and that that that's the hard part put an end to it.
• 30:16
  Josh: It's wild to think that you could accumulate that many bad people.
• 30:20
  Josh: But let's say it is all real.
• 30:23
  Josh: I don't know who I would be with the vast amount of knowledge of knowing all of that information.
• 30:30
  Josh: Like if we know where humans come from, if we know the point of humanity, if you know, if you do get that definition of what humanity is.
• 30:39
  Travis: You don't have to collect all bad people.
• 30:42
  Travis: You can get hopeless people.
• 30:43
  Travis: True.
• 30:44
  Travis: Downtrodden people, people that don't feel like they have anything left to live for, or are doing this to save their family, you know, this is like their sacrifice, and they have to go and do awful, terrible things.
• 30:57
  Travis: You never, I mean, now this is a thought experiment, and we're just speculating what kind of people would be involved in something like this, which is also kind of part of the show.
• 31:08
  Josh: Well, we're both no's.
• 31:10
  Josh: I'm a no.
• 31:10
  Josh: I want to know what other people think.
• 31:12
  Josh: I'm sure there's yeses out there.
• 31:15
  Josh: There's probably stuff I don't know about it yet.
• 31:17
  Josh: We didn't get to dive crazy deep in our research on this.
• 31:21
  Josh: We only have a certain amount of time to research.
• 31:22
  Josh: So there's probably a lot of information out there.
• 31:25
  Travis: Yeah.
• 31:25
  Travis: I had I think I had the least amount of time with this than I've had with other shows.
• 31:30
  Josh: Yeah.
• 31:30
  Josh: So let us know.
• 31:31
  Josh: We are always willing to change our minds.
• 31:34
  Josh: All right.
• 31:34
  Josh: So we do have a five-star review on Apple.
• 31:38
  Travis: Very cool.
• 31:39
  Josh: It's titled Aliens Unfortunately.
• 31:42
  Travis: Oh, it's titled Aliens Unfortunately.
• 31:45
  Travis: Yeah.
• 31:45
  Josh: It says Josh is very passionate and knowledgeable about the horrifying potential reality of the extraterrestrial, and Travis is bald.
• 31:54
  Travis: That's just cruel.
• 31:56
  Josh: But it's five-star.
• 31:57
  Travis: So we had to read it.
• 31:59
  Josh: And it is from Noah.
• 32:02
  Travis: Noah, the producer on our other podcast.
• 32:05
  Travis: How kind.
• 32:06
  Travis: That was somebody just being cruel because it's a podcast.
• 32:09
  Travis: Nobody knows what either one of us look like.
• 32:12
  Travis: So that's bum.
• 32:13
  Travis: Thanks.
• 32:14
  Josh: We have socials.
• 32:15
  Travis: Yeah, but like I'm not on social uh almost ever.
• 32:19
  Josh: Yeah.
• 32:20
  Josh: Well, thank you.
• 32:21
  Josh: We want more.
• 32:22
  Josh: Uh, we don't want you talking about our bodies.
• 32:24
  Josh: No.
• 32:25
  Josh: But I mean, I feel good about my part.
• 32:28
  Travis: I mean, if it's gonna get us a five-star review, then you can talk about our bodies.
• 32:34
  Travis: That's fine.
• 32:35
  Travis: I mean, they're not talking about yours, they're just talking about mine.
• 32:37
  Travis: They said the you seem genuinely afraid of whatever.
• 32:41
  Josh: Yeah.
• 32:41
  Travis: Love it.
• 32:42
  Travis: Thanks, Noah.
• 32:43
  Josh: Now it's time for our quiz.
• 32:48
  Travis: Great.
• 32:48
  Travis: One bit of good news right after another.
• 32:51
  Travis: Love it.
• 32:52
  Josh: Okay.
• 32:52
  Josh: It's the Brooklyn Bridge abduction.
• 32:55
  Travis: That's gonna be Oh, Brooklyn Bridge Abduction.
• 33:01
  Josh: I have never heard about this.
• 33:03
  Travis: Bridges.
• 33:04
  Josh: I've no I don't know what is a bridge?
• 33:06
  Travis: Jeff Bridges.
• 33:07
  Josh: Well, this will be interesting.
• 33:08
  Travis: Okay.
• 33:08
  Travis: Is there a time?
• 33:09
  Travis: Oh, nope.
• 33:10
  Travis: First question is when?
• 33:11
  Travis: I was like, is there a year?
• 33:13
  Josh: Yeah.
• 33:14
  Josh: So first question, what year did the Brooklyn Bridge abduction incident take place?
• 33:18
  Josh: Is it A 1968, B, 1989, C 1999, or D 2016?
• 33:27
  Travis: When, Josh?
• 33:27
  Travis: Now call on your bridge knowledge.
• 33:29
  Travis: When was the Brooklyn Bridge built?
• 33:32
  Travis: I have no idea.
• 33:34
  Travis: I mean, I would imagine it's probably before 68?
• 33:37
  Travis: Yeah, I don't know.
• 33:37
  Travis: I mean, it'd have to be well, I mean, probably closer to 68 than any of the others.
• 33:41
  Travis: Yeah.
• 33:42
  Josh: But I don't know when the Brooklyn Bridge was bridged.
• 33:44
  Travis: Yeah, were they taking ferries instead of having to cross a bridge?
• 33:47
  Josh: I don't even know what the Brooklyn Bridge bridges.
• 33:50
  Travis: Can I look that up, or is that gonna be considered cheating?
• 33:53
  Josh: That'd be considered cheating.
• 33:54
  Josh: We can look it up.
• 33:55
  Travis: If I look up when the Brooklyn Bridge was made, yeah.
• 33:58
  Josh: So I'm gonna say 89.
• 34:00
  Josh: Seemed like there's a lot of good year things happening.
• 34:04
  Josh: Sure.
• 34:04
  Josh: What do you think?
• 34:06
  Travis: Uh I don't know.
• 34:09
  Travis: Uh I'm gonna say 68.
• 34:10
  Travis: I'm going old school.
• 34:13
  Josh: Okay.
• 34:13
  Josh: All right, next one.
• 34:14
  Josh: Which UFO researcher wrote a book about this case?
• 34:18
  Travis: Oh, god damn it.
• 34:19
  Josh: Is it A, Stanton Friedman?
• 34:21
  Josh: B, Jacques Valet, C, John Mack, or D, Bud Hopkins?
• 34:26
  Travis: Which one was the author that practically ripped off a stranger in a strange land?
• 34:30
  Travis: Is he on here?
• 34:32
  Travis: No, he's not on here.
• 34:33
  Travis: Okay.
• 34:33
  Travis: Jacques Vallet.
• 34:34
  Travis: Valet?
• 34:35
  Travis: Valet.
• 34:36
  Travis: That's how you say it?
• 34:37
  Josh: Mm-hmm.
• 34:38
  Travis: Okay.
• 34:38
  Travis: That's who I say.
• 34:39
  Josh: I'm gonna say John Mack.
• 34:42
  Travis: Cool.
• 34:42
  Travis: Sounds like a truck.
• 34:44
  Josh: He was the guy who went to Zimbabwe and interviewed all those students.
• 34:48
  Josh: Okay.
• 34:48
  Josh: So next one.
• 34:49
  Josh: How many people were abducted?
• 34:51
  Josh: Whoa.
• 34:51
  Josh: A1, B2, C three, or D 10 plus.
• 34:57
  Josh: I'm gonna say 10 plus.
• 34:59
  Josh: I'm saying three.
• 35:00
  Josh: Okay.
• 35:01
  Josh: All right.
• 35:02
  Josh: Approximately how many people witnessed the event?
• 35:05
  Josh: A3, B7, C23, D100 plus.
• 35:11
  Travis: Wow.
• 35:11
  Travis: 100 plus would be hard on a bridge.
• 35:13
  Travis: I mean, not a big bridge.
• 35:15
  Travis: Yeah, it would be hard on a big bridge.
• 35:17
  Travis: Your line of sight is not gonna be, you're not like looking at something on a plane.
• 35:20
  Travis: You're out on a bridge.
• 35:22
  Travis: So it's like forward, barely side, back to get 100 people.
• 35:27
  Travis: And if they're in cars, that's a lot.
• 35:29
  Travis: Unless it's high up and then everybody gets looking up, but nobody looks up.
• 35:33
  Travis: I'm gonna say 23.
• 35:34
  Travis: Okay.
• 35:35
  Travis: I'm saying three.
• 35:36
  Travis: I'm sticking with my number.
• 35:37
  Travis: Okay.
• 35:38
  Travis: Three's all the way down.
• 35:39
  Josh: Okay.
• 35:40
  Josh: What type of beings were claimed to have been involved in the abduction?
• 35:44
  Josh: A reptilians, B, Nordics, C Mantids, or D, gray aliens?
• 35:50
  Josh: Ugh.
• 35:51
  Josh: I mean, grays are known for their abductions.
• 35:54
  Josh: I don't know much about the Nordics and abductions.
• 35:57
  Josh: Reptilians, maybe mantids, possibly.
• 36:00
  Josh: But I'm gonna say gray aliens.
• 36:01
  Travis: I'm saying grays too.
• 36:03
  Josh: Yeah, it's probably not, but okay.
• 36:05
  Josh: Uh uh-oh.
• 36:06
  Josh: Where did Linda abductee report finding an implant afterwards?
• 36:12
  Josh: A in her nasal passage, B, the nape of her neck, C behind the ear, or D on the inside of her ankle.
• 36:20
  Travis: We talked about this on the show.
• 36:22
  Josh: I this is a different person though.
• 36:24
  Travis: Oh, sure it is.
• 36:25
  Travis: They're all Linda's, Josh.
• 36:27
  Josh: I have a little bump on the inside of my ankle that recently appeared.
• 36:31
  Travis: Uh oh, it's probably a bone spur.
• 36:34
  Josh: No, I don't know what it is.
• 36:35
  Josh: It's like a perfect spot.
• 36:36
  Travis: Well then how do you know?
• 36:37
  Travis: How do you know if it's a bone spur or not?
• 36:39
  Josh: It's weird.
• 36:39
  Josh: I don't know what it is.
• 36:40
  Josh: Probably aliens.
• 36:41
  Josh: That's what they do.
• 36:42
  Josh: I'm gonna say nape of her neck.
• 36:44
  Travis: Yeah, I've already answered that.
• 36:46
  Josh: Okay, so that was our last one.
• 36:48
  Josh: We are gonna submit, and your accuracy.
• 36:51
  Josh: Oh okay.
• 36:53
  Josh: In what year did the Brooklyn Bridge abduction incident take place?
• 36:58
  Speaker 1: Classic Travis.
• 36:59
  Josh: I said 1989.
• 37:01
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 37:01
  Speaker 1: I said 68.
• 37:03
  Josh: Yeah, it is 1989.
• 37:04
  Josh: Next one, which UFO researcher wrote a book about this case?
• 37:08
  Josh: I said John Mack.
• 37:10
  Speaker 1: I said Jacques Valet.
• 37:12
  Josh: Yeah, it was Bud Hopkins.
• 37:14
  Josh: That was the one person I didn't know yet out of these four.
• 37:18
  Josh: Okay.
• 37:19
  Josh: Next one, how many were abducted?
• 37:21
  Josh: The answer is just one.
• 37:23
  Travis: Yeah, I said three.
• 37:24
  Travis: I was closer.
• 37:25
  Josh: Yeah, I guess.
• 37:26
  Josh: I said 10 plus.
• 37:27
  Josh: Next one, approximately how many people witnessed the event?
• 37:30
  Josh: Yeah.
• 37:31
  Josh: I said 23.
• 37:32
  Josh: I said three.
• 37:33
  Josh: You were right.
• 37:34
  Josh: It was 23.
• 37:36
  Josh: Nailed it.
• 37:37
  Josh: It's a lot of people.
• 37:38
  Josh: Sure is.
• 37:38
  Josh: That'd be embarrassing being the one person and having all these people watch you being abducted.
• 37:43
  Travis: Yeah.
• 37:43
  Josh: It's like a private thing.
• 37:45
  Travis: Well, you would hope so.
• 37:46
  Travis: But you know, there have been studies done, and and this is probably why nobody did anything, because if you are going to get in a fight with somebody or do something and you do it in a crowd, somebody in that crowd is just gonna think somebody will step up and take care of it.
• 38:01
  Josh: Interesting.
• 38:02
  Travis: And so nobody steps up to take care of it.
• 38:04
  Travis: Whereas, like if you are walking down a footpath and someone else is walking down a footpath and then that person gets mugged or assaulted in some way, you're gonna be more likely to respond and help that person because you're the only one.
• 38:17
  Travis: That makes sense.
• 38:18
  Travis: Yeah, nobody wants to get involved in other people's shit.
• 38:21
  Josh: Yeah.
• 38:21
  Josh: Okay.
• 38:22
  Josh: Next one.
• 38:22
  Josh: What type of beings were claimed to have been involved in the abduction?
• 38:26
  Josh: We both said gray aliens, and that is correct.
• 38:29
  Travis: Yeah, I really needed that.
• 38:30
  Travis: Yeah, I did not want the mantids.
• 38:32
  Travis: It was gonna be all Travis's on everyone wrong is a Travis.
• 38:36
  Travis: A travesty.
• 38:37
  Travis: Oh fuck.
• 38:38
  Travis: I just gave myself my own nickname.
• 38:42
  Josh: All right.
• 38:43
  Josh: Last one.
• 38:44
  Josh: Where did Linda, the abductee, report finding an implant afterwards?
• 38:48
  Josh: I said the nape of her neck.
• 38:50
  Josh: You said the same.
• 38:52
  Travis: Uh no, I switched it at the end and I said the right one.
• 38:54
  Travis: What's the right one?
• 38:54
  Travis: No, I said nape of her neck.
• 38:56
  Josh: All right.
• 38:56
  Josh: It was in her nasal passage.
• 38:58
  Josh: Ouch.
• 38:59
  Travis: Yeah.
• 39:00
  Josh: That would be uncomfortable.
• 39:01
  Travis: Yeah.
• 39:01
  Travis: Yeah.
• 39:02
  Travis: It would affect your breathing, probably.
• 39:04
  Josh: Well, okay.
• 39:05
  Josh: I guess in 1989 there was an abduction on the Brooklyn Bridge, and 23 people watched it.
• 39:12
  Travis: Yeah.
• 39:12
  Josh: Well, this will be good.
• 39:13
  Travis: Yeah, love it.
• 39:15
  Josh: We haven't done many abduction stories.
• 39:16
  Josh: I mean, we did Travis Walden.
• 39:18
  Travis: Yeah, we've done a few.
• 39:19
  Travis: We did Betty and Barney.
• 39:21
  Travis: Betty and Barney.
• 39:22
  Travis: Hell yeah.
• 39:22
  Travis: Yeah.
• 39:23
  Travis: My favorite story was Betty and Barney.
• 39:25
  Josh: I'd love that one.
• 39:26
  Josh: Well, cool.
• 39:27
  Josh: Thank you for listening.
• 39:28
  Josh: And thank you, Jordan, for being awesome.
• 39:32
  Travis: For toiling in the mines.
• 39:34
  Josh: Mm-hmm.
• 39:34
  Travis: Appreciate you, Jordan.
• 39:35
  Josh: Yep.
• 39:36
  Travis: See you next week in person.
• 39:37
  Travis: It's exciting.
• 39:38
  Travis: This is coming out after, though.
• 39:40
  Travis: But sure.
• 39:42
  Travis: So so what?
• 39:43
  Travis: And the timeline of the show as we're recording, I will see Josh and Jordan.
• 39:49
  Travis: We are hosting them at our house for a UFO fest in McMinnville, just right outside of Portland.
• 39:55
  Travis: Yeah.
• 39:56
  Travis: So if you're listening to this and you want to go to UFO fest, too bad you missed your opportunity because it's over.
• 40:03
  Josh: And I'm just going to say now, since when they're listening, it's already happened, we had a great time.
• 40:08
  Travis: Blast.
• 40:09
  Travis: It was so fun.
• 40:09
  Travis: Absolute banger over time, and the podcast didn't end because of uh how much fun we had.
• 40:14
  Josh: Okay.