Latest / IB Unplugged / Tech with Intention: Rethinking Classroom Innovation w/ Terence Tan

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Tech with Intention: Rethinking Classroom Innovation w/ Terence Tan · IB Unplugged

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Welcome to IB Unplugged, a Kognity podcast for IBDP educators,
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that tackles your submitted challenges and questions by connecting you with
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Hello everybody, and welcome back to IB Unplugged.
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We're super excited for this week's episode where we are talking with Terence
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Tan. We're looking at tech with intention how we can rethink classroom innovation.
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Terence is the General manager for USA at Ed Maker.
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He leads future ready steam Stem
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learning across schools, libraries, community programs.
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He's been a speaker at all sorts of different conferences.
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He was a teacher before he got into the ed tech area.
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And talking with Terence, there's so much that he's
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bring into this field of education and specifically the intersection of where
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we're bringing ed tech into what we're doing in our daily practice.
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Yeah.
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So in this episode, we're exploring how technology can be
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more than just flashy gadgets and instead really become this
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meaningful partner in inquiry driven, student centered learning.
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Terence shares lessons
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from his work in international schools and in innovation labs,
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highlighting how we can make intentional, human centered decisions about tech
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use that amplify, not distract from teaching and learning.
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So we're so glad that you're here again.
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We hope you enjoy this episode with Terence Tan.
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Let's get into it.
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Hi, Terry, welcome to IB Unplugged.
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We're so glad you're here.
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I am also delighted to be here.
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Thanks for having me on this call.
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And, you know, happy to share.
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Absolutely.
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We're looking forward to diving into tech with intention,
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thinking about classroom innovation, that sort of thing.
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And I know we've got a lot of great questions
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and topics we're going to get into here soon.
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But let's help everybody get to know you a little bit.
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And we thought it'd be kind of fun
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to just ask a few questions about your experience in tech,
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and I wonder if you can recall your first memorable classroom tech moment.
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Oh, wow.
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That's, you know, we talked we talked so much about,
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helping students in AI and gen AI, I, I'm going to
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potentially date myself a little bit here, but I remember the first,
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my first
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month of teaching in a classroom in Singapore.
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Students did not have one to end devices.
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We had to push in a lap cart.
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And I tremendously underestimated
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the weight of a single cart.
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And it's that stuff is heavy.
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And that's not what something tell you in teacher school.
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So, it took it took me and two, like, reasonably
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big students to muscle it into the classroom.
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And I remember by the time I was distributing the laptops,
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I mean, in my mind, I had a way of kind of.
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Okay, everyone in row one is going to stand up,
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you guys are going to get a laptop.
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And in row two, that did not happen.
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It was like after the period was gone,
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by the time I had to distribute the laptops and I was like,
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okay, we'll chalk this up to experience.
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It just took that
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long to get them into the room, and then kids were like scrambling
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over them or, you know, the cart got into the room
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and then we had to unlock it.
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And then it was in a different place, three other administrators
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to come in and unlock the cart.
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It was one of those things, I think, as a first year teacher that, you know,
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it's simple, like these kind of, I guess preparation
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or prep moves are really easy because everyone's kind of done it before.
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In my experience, teachers are like, oh, this
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is how you do it right. Yeah.
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But there's so much planning that goes on behind it that, you know,
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that I obviously kind of overlook.
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So so that's my enduring memory is start me a little.
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And I'm so happy that most of the schools I've been involved with have transitioned
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to, you know, what devices you had probably like set up portable.
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Oh, yeah, something as simple as a hardware.
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It's such a classic, like introducing a tech piece into the classroom, right?
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There was so many times where I've been like, I'm going to use this thing.
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It's going to be super useful.
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And then like 20 minutes of the lesson are gone.
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Just trying to like activated or get the kids to actually be using it.
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I'm like, this wasn't even worth it in the first place.
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Yeah, yeah, yeah.
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So like prep is key, but knowing what you have to prep for, in
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other words, like figure out what the what the known unknowns are.
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What's so important?
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That's one of the key things I took away
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from, like, my first few months in the classroom.
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Definitely.
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So besides laptop carts, what is one
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digital tool that you wish that every teacher could master?
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That's a great question.
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Can it be it's hardware or software?
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Right.
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Ooh, you can differentiate hardware or software.
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All right. One piece of hardware. One piece of software. Yeah, yeah.
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There is a I mean, I think
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a lot of Gen AI power tools are super useful.
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That's been pretty specific.
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Tools have been developed for professional development, for instructional coaching.
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But for me, like, general purpose,
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LLM like, you know, ChatGPT Gemini,
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has grown in terms of number one teachers as well as number two support.
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So I feel like just by familiarizing yourself with what
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ChatGPT in Gemini, Claude, pick and choose your favorite LLM.
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Familiarizing yourself with what it does, what it can do,
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how you could potentially kind of weave it into your day to day workflow?
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Not just for administrative purposes, but how you could
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potentially kind of integrate it into your day to day instruction.
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Like, that's so powerful to me.
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So the software, I would say one of,
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like, Gen AI, two more specific tools like brisk
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or some other tools that are hyper focused on education are really useful.
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But I see it as more like
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that's what you learn after you're familiar with the basics.
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And to me, kind of like the basics would be like a general purpose
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language model,
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that you pull out and use, say you want.
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He's going to say a whiteboard marker and like pen, right.
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Yeah, I was going to say a Tamagotchi or a laser pointer.
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Yeah. Yeah.
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That's not hardware.
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But I mean, I think, you know,
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if I'm thinking about tech hardware, I have, I've seen,
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this swivel robot, you know,
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that that the swivel bot,
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being used in great ways for instructional coaching
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and professional development to be able to record
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not just what a teacher is doing, but also how students are responding
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and integrating that into a broader instructional coaching
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cycle can be something that's really powerful.
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Yeah, that's that's just a couple of things that come to mind.
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Nice one.
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All right.
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I guess kind of a final warm up question here.
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What's what's one thing
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you wish that people had a better understanding of when it comes to edtech?
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I think a lot of non educators,
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I'm going to ruffle some feathers.
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You have a lot of founders, right, who might not have stepped into the classroom.
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And fourth thing that that tigers sure
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to a lot of the challenges in education.
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And I think there's a lot of focus on product development there
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that that looks at solving.
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I mean, there's so much research or so much art pieces that and solving
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a two sigma problem. Right.
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But I,
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I mean, I just, I just wish
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more founders would step into the classroom
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and have experience actually
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teaching for a few months for, for a year.
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I think that in-classroom exposure is so important.
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And some of the best ed tech tools I've seen
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have founders and teams that do that very deliberately,
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either to co-design or to very thoughtful UX research.
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And I think that's something I think, you know,
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the, the broader few of edtech should look at and should adopt.
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I think most teachers would appreciate that answer, actually, come in and see,
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get in the room with us, see what it's like in the trenches.
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Yeah, not not trenches.
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Come on. It's not warfare. It's just kids.
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Yeah. You gotta you gotta edit over that.
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Yeah. Great. All right.
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Well let's dive into the first part,
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which is tech with purpose and grounding, innovation and learning.
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And the first question that I wanted to ask you is
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how do you define meaningful technology integration in education.
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Yeah.
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So I would define it as like looking at what the needs vision
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and the strategy of the school.
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So I think this this relates to another point
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about technology being used in service of education.
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Right.
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What does it mean that to be used in service of education.
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Right.
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It means that schools have a clear strategy
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about, you know, what my partner of a graduate looks like?
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What my.
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Well, in Singapore, we used to call them like,
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students learning outcomes.
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Right? What do you want?
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Let's say after four years of secondary education, what do you want
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a student to step out of the classroom looking like,
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how you want to prepare them for the next stage of their life?
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Like, all that has to be the first principles, right?
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I, I think a lot of times, schools are our consultants might look at technology
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first, but I think it's really important for us to take a step back
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and think about what are we integrating for, right.
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I have I think I think
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I conceptualize it a few buckets right of
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what you're why you're why you're bringing technology, right?
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One bucket for productivity.
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Right?
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Looking to,
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improve the way that teachers, you know,
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conduct their administrative duties in the classroom, whether it's
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attendance, taking, whether it's parent communication.
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Right.
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That whole bucket of productivity and administrative efficiency
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is a big focus of,
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you know, why we're bring technology, but it shouldn't stop there.
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Right?
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I think there's a big potential
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for technology to be leveraged to promote deeper learning.
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Right.
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And by deeper learning, I mean, the kind of critical thinking
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that we talk about so often in a classroom to, students are actually meaningful,
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meaningfully constructing knowledge, using technology
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to support them in the way, as opposed to using technology as a crutch
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to kind of help them access and process knowledge.
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Right.
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So and I think one thing that really stands out of,
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about the IB schools that I've worked with and,
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and, well, even beyond that, like really good schools, right.
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Are taking those things as first principles. Right?
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They're not just integrating technology for administrative efficiency.
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They're looking at how technology can help to achieve deep learning.
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Right.
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And I think, you know, a lot of the questions of personalizing,
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learning, a lot of the questions about acknowledging it help to, to, to
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to allow teachers to grade and achieve,
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assessment at scale are important.
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But I think the biggest question that I think,
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we should be preoccupied about
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is how we can use technology to support student creation,
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to support students critical thinking, to support
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students, knowledge creation.
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Right?
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I mean, I think those are things that we haven't really prepped
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exactly how we do that perfectly just yet.
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I love that you've brought that up there, Terry,
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because I fully agree with this idea that we don't want technology
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to become a crutch for students. We want it to enhance their learning.
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We want to help them make better, meaning of the content they're gaining
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and this sort of thing.
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And I think what you're leading to is effectively how we can use
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tech to enhance or reinforce good pedagogy.
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And not necessarily detract from it.
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But, you know, as a, as a teacher in a school, as a DP coordinator,
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I'm constantly flooded
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with just sort of messages about like, hey, try this tech, try this thing out.
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Hey, have you looked at this particular thing?
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How do you know?
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How does schools effectively navigate that?
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How do we ensure that the tech is going to serve pedagogy?
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What sort of questions should we be asking ourselves before we,
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like latch on to whatever new thing that's coming into our inbox?
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Yeah, I think, you know, working in Singapore
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and then now working in the US, it's a it's a pretty different kind
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of like, environment to what I'm about to say.
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Is probably going to relate to your point.
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I feel like some teachers,
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many teachers,
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in Singapore were pretty open to try new tools.
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Right.
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And that was during, period of time when I, when, when ed tech had not,
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I guess, blown up to the, to the scale and to the,
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diversity of tools as it is now.
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And now when I'm doing teacher training and I'm working with schools in the US,
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I really feel the sense of push back to the teachers were a little burned out.
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The range and scope and scale,
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of of of tools that are accessible to them.
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Right? Yeah.
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It's overwhelming, man. It's overwhelming.
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It's it's kind of crazy.
12:57
Yeah.
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Well, there's so many things where you think, oh, this could be awesome.
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Yeah, maybe this is going to work out really well.
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And so you want to give it an honest try.
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But at the same time
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it's like, well, I can't just invest in all these things
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right away or try my three month trial here
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and then forget it down the road, you know?
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So how do we. Yeah.
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Go on. Sorry, I just I just wanted to jump on that.
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No, no, it's it's it's it's it's, it makes total sense.
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I mean, I was talking to an administrator a couple of a months ago.
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He said now his main challenge is vital work.
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If it's just to whittle down the tools to a set range that you can actually,
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you know, allow his teachers to access on, Google Workspace, right?
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So that's a whole process that the teacher that, the administrators and teachers
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for a district are really kind of entering into to kind of pull teachers on,
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use it to look at data as ahow teachers actually using their tools.
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Right.
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And then through that active engagement over the course of, I don't know,
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six months or a year trying to figure out where, where does duplication.
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Right.
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As the case in point.
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Right.
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Canva is a great graphic design tool,
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but you need a district that's paying for, well, a Canva subscription.
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A bunch of other graphic design
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tools are actually not going to be using everything.
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I think a lot of times as a fixation on use this tool
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rather than train this skill.
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I said, Canva is a great tool, right?
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Shout out maybe Canva. Yeah, great tool,
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not sponsored.
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What skills is a is a tool that I actually teach you.
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Right.
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And and and Canva is a great example because they've been releasing
14:30
new features that I can see connecting to different skills.
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Right.
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For example, they they've of the recently released
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new features related to data analysis or graph creation.
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You know, that's a big data science piece, right?
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That that used to be super challenging before
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a while back, even before that, they were introducing a bunch of new Gen AI tools.
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Right.
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Which raises a whole creation where it does a whole point of, well,
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what does it mean to use Gen AI in your artistic creation?
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What does it mean to your jGen AI in art design and ad design?
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And those are really powerful opportunities for students to,
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I guess, deepen their understanding of graphic design.
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But back to my point.
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I think a big to answer your question a little bit, in a
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little bit more targeted fashion, a big question is ask yourself
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what skill this tool is actually trying to try and trying to teach.
15:21
Right. And how does it benefit?
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How does it benefit my efficiency?
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How does it benefit my students learning?
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I think that's a big question that we should be asking ourselves.
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No, I think that's a really good point.
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I think, yeah, starting with the why, knowing exactly
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why you're using that tool.
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We were talking with a school.
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I want to say was earlier this week, and I'm not going to say what school
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it was, but nor am I, criticizing it.
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It's just a really good example.
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They were like, we have 200 different tools that our teachers use.
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They finally went across and made this collection
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of every tool that every teacher is using in that school.
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200 how can you use 200 tools
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well, how can you train teachers to use 200 tools well?
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It's crazy.
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I understand why because
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all these small use cases start sneaking up on you.
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And this sounds good for this one thing, and this sounds good.
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Or you just started a trial and forgot to cancel it.
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I have a few of those personally.
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So I think that it is.
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You're right that it's so important that if you're going to adopt a tool,
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you need to have it connected
16:30
also to the skills you need to be able to confidently use those tools,
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because otherwise you spend, like John said, 20
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minutes in the beginning of each class, just trying to get something set up
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each time.
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No, I mean responsive.
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I think to your point about how do you just pick I think what
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I've seen is that in ministries own districts around the world,
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there there are there are
16:53
organizations that have a very laissez faire,
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ground up approach to using digital tools.
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And I think the the benefit of that is that your teachers are really invested
17:03
in what they're doing.
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They're not just I think it breeds a very,
17:08
curious and inquisitive mindset amongst teachers, which I think you need
17:12
if they're going to be using technology that really resonates with them.
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But the drawback, to your point, is that you face, an explosion of tools.
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Right?
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And it's as an administrator or a manager, I think it's going to be really
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challenging to identify the impact that those tools have on the individual
17:31
teachers practice, as well as the entire students.
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And you have a whole set of other,
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organizations and
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ministries of a great deal of central control that push the schools,
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push the teacher tools down to it so that they decide preemptively.
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Right. Technocraticly, however you call it.
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They decided these set of tools are going to be
17:50
the ones that are useful enterprise level tools.
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These are the views of the teachers, and all the teachers are required
17:56
to use those tools. Right.
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And of course, there's a continuum, right?
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It doesn't make sense to ban other tools that fall outside that white list.
18:04
Right. But it does not well support it. Right.
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And then teachers are really just,
18:08
for lack of a better word, forced to use that set of tools.
18:11
Right.
18:12
And obviously,
18:12
you can see the pros and cons that come up with that sort of approach.
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And I think it really depends a lot on what you're getting for.
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What are the trade offs you're willing to, embrace.
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And, and the appetite for failure
18:27
to somewhere because not every tool that you try is going to work out.
18:29
Right.
18:30
So insistence of a low tolerance of failure, you don't teachers explore.
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And I'm not saying that's a good thing or a bad thing.
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I'm just flagging out that that's a trade off, that I think
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different systems that I've worked with have dealt with in different ways.
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So that's my first point.
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And the other point I would like to bring out to really bring the,
18:48
the idea of how technology sells pedagogy.
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I think increasingly, what we're what
18:55
what I was seeing, well, were a slew of tools.
18:59
I think lesson plan generated doesn't content creators all the rage, obviously.
19:04
And I was just reading a research paper
19:06
by researchers, and, you know, you mentioned getting your pen.
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The title of the paper is Pedagogical Biases and AI Powered Educational Tools.
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The case of lesson Plan generators.
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And so what the researchers really found is that a lot of the content
19:20
that was coming out of this lesson plan generators, will focus on the teacher’s
19:24
stage on stage, right, rather than facilitating the sort
19:27
of like inquiry based learning and,
19:30
constructivist approach that
19:32
I think really helps students think for themselves.
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So I guess a broad question is, yeah, even if a tool sounds like it's going to,
19:39
you know, make your life as a teacher better or, make you more productive.
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What are we trading away?
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What's missing? Right?
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Are the tools that we're using getting us to converge our teaching practice
19:53
and the way we teach towards an era
19:57
which is currently not so irrelevant because the training materials,
20:00
all that journey AI model, all based on that error.
20:03
Or are we, I guess, conscious and self-aware enough to say, actually,
20:07
I want to push back on this a little bit, right?
20:09
How that's creating an AI lesson generator that promotes student inquiry
20:13
and, you know, open ended thinking.
20:15
What does that look like?
20:16
And I think there are pockets
20:17
of those that that innovation amongst communities affect, as I've seen,
20:22
that are really interrogating that question.
20:23
Yeah, it's such a good question.
20:25
It's something that we've been thinking about a lot.
20:27
Of course, every edtech companies thinking about AI, Kognity has,
20:31
didn't jump straight into it in the beginning
20:33
because we've been really trying to get it right.
20:35
And one of these kind of main points is what you just said.
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It's what are what kind of pedagogy can you stand behind?
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And for us, we really deliberately have these, Oh, God, I'm going to butcher this.
20:46
No I'm not.
20:47
There are learning principles there.
20:49
It's active learning, inclusive learning,
20:53
applied learning and formative learning.
20:56
There we go.
20:57
And all of these things, like you said, are kind of
21:00
if you don't train AI correctly, it's really hard to lose out on that.
21:05
And then you are having a product that doesn't align
21:08
with what your true principles are.
21:10
And when a teacher comes to us and is like,
21:12
how are you building your product?
21:14
It's like, these are the foundations of what we're trying to do.
21:18
And if we're developing resources or lesson
21:22
plans or something like that that aren't active and inclusive
21:25
and formative and applied, like the what's the point then?
21:29
It's it's not quality in terms of what we've spent years
21:33
researching is most important to see, especially in a DP school.
21:38
So no, I definitely agree.
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And I think those are
21:40
the kind of questions that teachers also need to be thinking critically about.
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The tools that they're using is like, what are the learning principles
21:47
of their classroom or of their school, like what matters most to them?
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And do these tools still live up to those standards?
21:54
I think we've made great strides in like observability and how an AI model
22:00
is able to explain what it does and why it does that.
22:03
But I think we're quite far away from a gold standard where it's able
22:07
to explain why and how we make certain pedagogical decisions in,
22:12
generating content where it could be like, oh, okay, well, I'm satisfied.
22:18
Becoming a better IBDP
22:19
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22:23
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22:24
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22:28
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22:32
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22:34
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22:38
That's why it's easy to download the episode summary
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22:42
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22:54
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22:56
Now back to the show.
22:59
All this is making me think a lot about.
23:01
I went to a,
23:02
to a panel earlier where some people were talking about
23:05
how students are responding to the use of AI,
23:07
and a lot of it comes down to like key questions
23:09
or key terms that kept coming up, which was like perfection.
23:12
And students feeling like, oh, I want to be more efficient.
23:14
But effectively what they were doing was I'm too worried to put myself out there.
23:17
And so I need to have
23:19
this perfect response for this perfect, you know, thing to this assignment.
23:23
And as you've been talking here, it's making me think, as a teacher,
23:25
we might think, oh, this is more efficient.
23:27
And therefore, because it's drawing from all the information
23:29
that's out there, it's going to be the more perfect lesson plan.
23:32
But what we are missing in that is the value of the teacher
23:36
and the authenticity that you're going to bring
23:38
when you, for example, create your own lesson plan
23:40
or decide intentionally to bring in the AI tool or whatever
23:43
it might be to that lesson to meet your learning objective.
23:46
And I think one of the things that I've loved
23:48
about what you're talking about so far is really it seems like
23:51
we need to, as educators, think very critically.
23:54
Of course.
23:54
Why are we choosing this thing? What skill is it enhancing?
23:57
But also not to just throw our value aside and be like, oh,
24:00
let me just jump on the bandwagon.
24:02
The AI can replace me, know I have very valuable things
24:05
to bring to the classroom and I've got a deeper insight
24:08
what's happening there that I might choose to use this thing,
24:11
whereas I can't justify or explain the decisions that an AI powered tool
24:15
is using to create this ideal lesson plan, or whatever it might be for me.
24:20
So if I'm hearing this correctly,
24:21
it sounds like one of the biggest mistakes we can make as educators
24:25
is to not question what skill am I gaining like,
24:28
and how am I being more effective in my actual teaching,
24:32
by approaching this or by adopting this technological tool, is that
24:36
is that correct? Yeah. I think that a lot of,
24:40
teachers may
24:40
also have the assumption that the,
24:44
suggestion that the AI is generating is probably going to be the best
24:47
for their classroom. And I'm like, no, you're the teacher.
24:50
You know what's best for your classroom, right?
24:51
Don't let the AI or don't let,
24:55
you know the language model tell you
24:57
tell you something else because,
25:01
I think with agentic
25:02
AI egentic systems are what,
25:05
entering, an era where teachers are feeling more comfortable.
25:09
Kind of like co-creating with AI instead of seeing something,
25:13
seeing it as something to intirely push away or embrace uncritically.
25:18
And I think we need to be tending to it, to that sort of middle ground.
25:21
Right.
25:22
That helps quite a bit.
25:23
So let's move on to
25:24
maybe our second part here, talking about implementing change itself.
25:28
And I think what you're talking about here is how we're building that teacher
25:31
confidence, how they can use new tools and build their capacity to say,
25:36
I have all this expertise that I'm bringing to the classroom,
25:38
and I'm going to onboard this tool to help me along the way.
25:41
How do we build that teacher confidence?
25:43
How do we build that capacity when we're bringing in those new tools?
25:46
I think a lot of times,
25:48
we, we,
25:49
we give teachers the opportunity to use tools
25:52
and we tell them these are great things that using a classroom.
25:56
But we have to cater time for them
25:59
to experiment in a more divergent way before converging.
26:03
Right.
26:04
So, let let me just give an example
26:07
about kind of like how one of the..
26:11
So one of the one of the trainings I recently conducted with,
26:15
a bunch of the cybersecurity teachers, right.
26:18
Involves the use of one of our lesson packages.
26:21
So this is what the skills for innovation teams will shout out to Intel skills
26:25
innovation, program where, you know, I train teachers,
26:31
on a fairly regular basis on the use
26:33
of, emerging technology in the classroom.
26:36
And they were actually looking at using,
26:40
Jupyter notebooks,
26:41
on Google Colab to, create their own,
26:46
simple, AI app that can detect, fake news.
26:50
Right?
26:52
The, they were creating an app that can actually,
26:55
ingest a corpus of knowledge
26:58
and then use that to distinguish between,
27:01
test data
27:02
if it's real news or whether it's fake news
27:05
according to triggers and according to, how the AI model was trained.
27:10
Right.
27:11
And the way that I was introducing to them was,
27:14
well, this is the sample code that you have.
27:17
This is a sample code that you can give your students, and they can run it.
27:22
Right. That requires zero critical thinking.
27:24
Just plug and play. Right.
27:26
But after that, what you have to push your students to think about
27:30
and what you have to do before the lesson is identify
27:35
if you're changing different variables,
27:38
within the code, what's going to be the impact on the actual result?
27:41
Right.
27:42
And this is not a, computer science class per se.
27:45
Right. So it's not about knowing,
27:48
what variables mean.
27:50
It's not about it's thinking critically about the code as a text.
27:54
For example, and looking at, well, if I change this a little bit, right.
27:58
What's the impact on the outcome. Right.
28:01
And I draw a parallel to,
28:04
you know, design thinking and iterating and stem where you have an experiment,
28:09
you have a creation and you make adjustments
28:13
and you see the impact you make adjustments, you see the outcome.
28:17
And with student facing AI tools and with student facing technology,
28:20
it's increasingly more and more, possible for students to make these changes
28:26
in their model or in their creation on the fly,
28:28
and then test it out to see what the impact is. Right.
28:31
And what I think, what a lot of technology is doing
28:34
is making it cycle faster for students to look at,
28:38
how changes they make are impacting the outcomes.
28:41
Right.
28:42
And I think we need to give teachers a space to try that out
28:45
before introducing it to their students.
28:48
All right. So Terry, I get it.
28:50
So we're saying we need to make sure that teachers have that time to kind of
28:53
play with the tool or get used to it and see how it's going to work
28:56
in their particular space and what might, might be some
28:59
that they could play with and see how it's going to get those skills
29:02
and those outcomes from from young people as well.
29:05
And I think with regard to the tech implementation, specifically in the
29:08
in the IB, the International Baccalaureate,
29:09
where we are trying to build up particular skills.
29:12
And I appreciate how many times you've mentioned that already
29:14
in this episode, just talking about what tool are we using for what
29:18
skill development,
29:20
how do we approach that implementation so that we're building skills
29:23
such as critical thinking
29:25
or such as inquiry? As you've mentioned already,
29:27
how do we make sure that we've got the right tool?
29:29
We've taken the time to look at it
29:30
and how we can implement it, so that students are developing
29:32
those skills of critical thinking and inquiry, for example.
29:35
Well, if you're giving teachers
29:36
the opportunity to play around and experiment of tools, right
29:40
then I can imagine that a well designed professional, learning or,
29:44
you know, professional development program or community of practice
29:47
is going to also cater the time for teachers to convert.
29:50
Right? So they've diverge and now they're converging right.
29:53
And so the question is what are they converging on. Right.
29:56
For each school system, for each school district you have a different set of,
30:00
expectations, student learning
30:02
outcomes, ATL skills and inquiry.
30:05
And I would throw it up to the teachers.
30:07
How do you see this particular tool,
30:10
contributing
30:12
to your graduate?
30:15
How do you guys see this tool contributing to ATL skills and inquiry?
30:18
Right.
30:18
And if teachers have been giving,
30:21
this tool kind of sufficient space and talent to experiment,
30:24
if they are going to be the ones who come to the table, say,
30:27
I've noticed it, I can do this with this tool.
30:30
And I see connected to, to to to this skill.
30:33
Right.
30:33
And of course, as a facilitator, you have a bunch of maybe 10 or 20 different,
30:38
examples at the back of your mind that you can pull out as the teachers
30:41
need a bit of help connecting the dots. Right?
30:43
But I in my experience, I think that if you genuinely ask,
30:47
teachers, you give them the space to play around, experiment, you diverge
30:51
before you convert.
30:52
The teachers
30:53
themselves are going to come to you with, with, with ways of using the tool
30:57
that you could never have imagined off as a, as an administrator.
31:01
I was going to say
31:02
it sounds like if you're a school leader, maybe this is actually better.
31:05
If you kind of identify, there's a few teachers who you know
31:08
are very explorative are going to diverge, as you mentioned, really kind of expand
31:13
all the ideas here as possible and then kind of bring it to the whole group.
31:16
So I think, you know, teaching,
31:19
you know, school systems and schools themselves are filled with a diverse
31:22
range of experiences and a diverse range of interests and trying something new.
31:27
And so maybe if you've got like a core group of people
31:29
where you like, go out and play with this a little bit and figure out
31:31
how it might work in our context, and maybe they bring it back.
31:33
That might be something that, you know, it kind of it bridges a gap of maybe here's
31:38
this tech company, here's somebody I know and trust and have worked
31:41
with, who's now played with it and sees how it can work in our context.
31:44
And that maybe softens that blow. Have you have you try that stuff?
31:47
Is that kind of work? Is that what you're talking about so far?
31:49
Yeah.
31:49
No, that's exactly that's exactly what I see happening, a lot.
31:53
I mean, I think with anything new, you have your early adopters, right?
31:57
And you have to the majority who's going to be following.
32:00
They want to wait and see.
32:01
And you have guys, you got the laggards. Right.
32:02
So your 10% who are your early adopters.
32:05
Those that those are the ones that you will really want to capture.
32:07
You bring into the classroom. You give them incentives.
32:10
You give them hooks for use or product stipends,
32:13
all that kind of stuff, at least from a from products standpoint.
32:16
That's what you that's what you guys have to give them.
32:19
Teachers don't like free stuff.
32:20
I don't know what you're talking about.
32:22
Yeah, yeah.
32:23
No one likes, It's funny. I, we had,
32:28
a pouch
32:30
the skills for innovation and Intel pouch.
32:32
We gave it to our teachers, our ambassadors, who,
32:35
champions of the program.
32:36
And they went crazy.
32:38
And I was like, well, I'm gonna.
32:40
I think the question is, what was in the pouch?
32:43
It was an the pouch.
32:45
It was crazy.
32:46
It was then I realized, yeah, as a teacher,
32:47
that's the perfect size for me to put my mochas.
32:53
You had a pencil case?
32:55
We were touting as a makeup pouch.
32:57
I was like, no, it was not a makeup pouch.
33:01
That's funny.
33:01
No, I, I see what you mean.
33:03
And I think that we've always felt that that resonates where you have to have
33:07
that the people who are willing to be that bridge, who are willing to be
33:11
the guinea pig, maybe in a less polite way of saying it, of trying.
33:15
You give them the opportunity.
33:16
You give them opportunities to present at conferences, to share.
33:19
You have really have to nurture that
33:21
that community of learners, because once you give them that recognition,
33:27
they're going to take your product.
33:29
I realized that a lot of, I mean, a lot of product that growth is,
33:32
is about having a really good product and finding your community.
33:35
Right.
33:35
So I guess that's the a bridge between
33:38
edtech product and other tools like in the classroom.
33:41
Yeah.
33:41
And then I think for for leaders in a school thinking about how
33:46
they want to build that culture around
33:48
innovation, I think is really important to do very deliberately.
33:52
I think that we've seen it in a lot of different ways in different schools.
33:56
And one kind of culture that I feel really,
34:01
supports innovation is when it's not just
34:05
there are a couple of teachers that kind of get labeled
34:08
as the innovators, and then everyone else is expected to follow them.
34:13
I think there are some that naturally want that title,
34:17
but there are a lot of teachers that are probably even better,
34:23
discovering new tools and learning about the kind of impacts
34:26
in the classroom and stuff.
34:26
But being careful to champion the ones who are vocally the innovators,
34:31
but also making sure that that doesn't put everyone else
34:35
as the the majority that will follow them.
34:38
Where there has to be a space created for everyone to feel like they have
34:43
that possibility, to be an innovator or a leader
34:46
and have space to share with the other teachers in the school.
34:49
Otherwise they're just gonna be like, oh no, that's that's John's job.
34:53
He's the innovation guy.
34:54
And then what happens when John realizes that,
34:59
there's another school out there?
35:01
Right.
35:01
John leaves, and now there are no innovators.
35:04
Yeah, we've seen that.
35:06
Or that I'm actually the Luddite in the family here.
35:11
Yeah, yeah.
35:12
No, I think it's it's such a great, such a great question.
35:15
A major change management, challenge that I've, I've seen in some of the,
35:19
the best leaders, administrators I've seen has a have a really
35:23
a really clear vision on how they want to promote
35:27
their college of innovation?
35:30
I, I also think that, a big part of it
35:33
is helping teachers who might be in that, remember
35:37
I talked about that being a range, giving them the opportunity
35:42
to be giving them the space, I guess, right to after.
35:45
For example, if you're thinking about a showcase
35:48
where your John's and innovators are sharing, right, carving out the space,
35:52
John loves that he's become the innovator in this conversation.
35:55
I did like this a lot.
35:56
This is great.
35:57
It's the now lot, right?
35:58
It's a now lot in question. Right.
36:00
We've seen that from the potential the possibility you get teachers to
36:04
to look at,
36:05
all the tools that have been shared by those innovators, early innovators
36:08
and get them to pick one.
36:09
And small communities of practice like it has to be their follow up.
36:13
And I think it's well established, the kinds of well that's down.
36:16
What kind of hey, as I fill out, I don't yeah, yeah, yeah.
36:19
Well I, I love what you're saying here with regard to very, very clear vision
36:22
because I think that will help with that follow up as well.
36:25
If, if as a leader or somebody in school who's trying to bring in this innovation,
36:29
you've got a very clear idea of like, these are the skills
36:31
and these are the ways it's going to help our young people become
36:34
more literate in this technology moving forward.
36:37
Then it's easy to see where that follow up is going to be.
36:39
And I think as teachers, then it's easier for us to onboard it
36:42
and just go, okay, I get it.
36:43
I need to bring this in.
36:45
And it kind of leads into,
36:47
I guess, kind of a third segment here, you know, with regard to student agency.
36:50
And one thing I'm noticing, definitely as a as a teacher
36:54
is, it's really important that my students become thinkers
36:57
about the tech that they're using, not just tech users.
37:01
Number of times somebody has kind of said to me,
37:03
oh, have you used insert whatever this particular tech tool is?
37:08
It's always like, okay, well what do you use that for?
37:11
And sometimes it you can just tell
37:13
from a teaching standpoint, they're just using it to kind of
37:15
get around the hard work of learning or the hard work of thinking
37:18
about something difficult.
37:19
So how do we prepare students to not just be tech
37:23
users, but actual thinkers about their tech?
37:26
Because it shouldn't just be teachers who are thinking
37:28
critically about, is this tool effective or not?
37:30
We need to impart that to students as well,
37:31
because they're going to be bombarded by all sorts of tech
37:33
when they what they are now, and they'll continue to be.
37:36
How do we get them to think critically about the tech they're using?
37:39
Yeah, that's a great question.
37:41
And that's something I've,
37:43
that preoccupies a lot of my time nowadays thinking,
37:45
thinking about how to, how students should be using technology. So
37:50
I come
37:50
from first principles that students should use technologies to create and build.
37:54
Right.
37:55
It's it's as simple as that, but it's also incredibly, incredibly complex.
38:00
Right.
38:01
What do you mean by create and build?
38:04
I think a lot of times, students
38:07
are using technology to for the productivity goals.
38:11
Right?
38:11
Students are using technology to submit their assignments on time.
38:16
Students are using technology to to sort of like,
38:21
meet district level kind of efficiency goals.
38:24
Right.
38:25
And I think,
38:27
instances where tech is being infused
38:30
in ways that actually encourage students to think more critically
38:35
and more intentionally about the impact of technology
38:38
in their lives, has,
38:42
is something that we often kind of,
38:45
put aside.
38:45
So let me give an example.
38:46
One of the teachers, and I guess the other part of it, before I move on to
38:50
my examples, is this should be infused in every subject domain, right?
38:54
I think it's not the responsibility of the computer science teacher
38:58
or it's not a responsibility on cyber security teacher to, to to think about
39:03
how to introduce students more intentionally and more intentionally
39:07
to technology.
39:08
I think if we go on the principles of, well,
39:11
we want to prepare students for the future so that when they graduate,
39:15
they're going to be able to succeed in a world that may look very different
39:18
from the one that we are living in right now,
39:21
then it's our responsibility
39:24
as teachers and educators to prioritize that.
39:27
And I think teachers that I've worked with have been doing that in different ways,
39:31
to have them super novel and super like
39:34
exciting.
39:35
Like when I'm sharing that, I'm just I just get so excited.
39:38
So one of the teachers that I've been with,
39:42
was a design
39:44
thinking he was running his design thinking unit
39:47
on where the where the students were creating a product to solve,
39:51
to, to to address the social challenge idea,
39:53
identify a social challenge it create a physical product.
39:55
Right. So we ran,
39:58
a unit where the students had to use Gen AI tools to design and advertisement.
40:02
So they use Canva to design the tagline to design the visuals.
40:07
They used Sora to design a video.
40:09
They use ChatGPT to kind of design a prompt to feed into Canva.
40:13
Right?
40:14
So it's it's really thinking about the kind of tools that they will
40:17
potentially be using their tech stack as adults or when they graduate,
40:21
when they go to college, what sort of the tech sector using
40:24
and then bringing it back.
40:25
What does my current, curriculum look like?
40:28
Right before that, his curriculum was, well, the students design a
40:32
ad on paper or using basic design software.
40:36
They write an essay Unpacking the petals, ethos and logos principles of the yet
40:41
and so he looked at that and was like, well,
40:43
how can I use tech tools that are out there?
40:45
How can I use Gen AI tools to help to reinvent this assignment
40:49
so as to make it more relevant? Right.
40:51
So I think a lot of times it's connecting what I have that's already really
40:54
well thought out in terms of a project, a summative assessment, whatever it is.
40:59
Right.
40:59
And then looking at attack tools, you know, that you're familiar
41:02
with because and this is important because he had the time,
41:05
he had the bandwidth to go and explore and try and play around.
41:08
Right. Like I said, he was playful with these tools. Right.
41:11
And so when we looked at how to connect the tools,
41:14
it was that segue was really natural, right?
41:17
And that resulted in a, in a unit in a project
41:21
where the students are actually using technology in authentic ways, right?
41:25
To create a project with plenty of real relevance.
41:28
And it's yeah, it's super authentic, right.
41:32
So I mean,
41:33
yeah, so it's that whole thought process of number
41:36
one teachers having,
41:40
freedom to explore and play.
41:42
And I use a lot of our intention to play with new tech tools.
41:45
Number two, teachers, as experts of their craft,
41:50
right, with curriculum that's high quality.
41:52
And then step three is the time needed to kind of like
41:56
integrate one and two.
42:33
You've talked a lot about
42:35
the the importance of time to play and time to experiment.
42:38
And when we think about what a future ready school looks like,
42:43
I think one huge part that we're talking about
42:45
is this kind of professional development
42:47
for teachers that also involves a lot of exploration, things like that.
42:51
What else does a future ready school look like for you?
42:55
There's a whole lot of intent to kind of play that vision, right?
42:58
I always go back to the point of you diverse before you converge, right?
43:01
You play, you're diverging, you're exploring.
43:03
But it has to be that role of a school facilitator, of a teacher leader
43:07
to kind of bring it together,
43:08
to help everyone see how we're going to converge as a school.
43:12
Right.
43:13
But I emphasize place often because it's just so neglected.
43:16
Right. And teaching and learning nowadays.
43:19
Well, the schools are serious places, man.
43:21
We don't have fun.
43:22
It's not about laughing or joy.
43:24
It's about getting work done.
43:26
Yeah.
43:26
So so I, I don't know, I think a lot of times, some teachers get I get
43:30
you can get a little bit disillusioned until you, you put it to them that.
43:35
Well it's, it's open ended.
43:37
Right. It's open ended play.
43:40
But but more
43:40
more to your question, Courtney, about, a future in school.
43:45
I see it in a couple of dimensions, right.
43:48
To me, as a as a matter of having a few buckets.
43:50
Right.
43:50
Schools being firstly very clear about what
43:52
their strategy and what their why is, right.
43:54
What's important for graduate, what do they want their graduates
43:57
to look like right when they graduate,
44:01
when they enter a four year college, when they enter a trade school
44:05
and eventually when they go into the future of work.
44:08
Right. So this requires leadership.
44:09
That's very much a future thinking,
44:12
thinking about what the world looks like ten years, 20, 30 years from now.
44:15
Right.
44:16
And that requires a shift in the way that we see education often.
44:21
Right?
44:21
Often we think for training
44:22
where we're working with students to train them for the world today.
44:25
Whereas I think a lot of us, don't,
44:29
we we we it's not second nature to think about what the world looks like
44:33
50 years from now. Right?
44:34
But I think a future school really makes every step.
44:38
Then from there, that's the first principles.
44:40
What do you want your students to look like? The why? Right.
44:42
Why? Why are we doing this? Right.
44:43
And then from there, it cascades down to
44:48
you have a school where which is culturally where to where, where,
44:51
where the school culture is very much primed towards promoting the sort of skill
44:55
sets and mindsets that are required in that future world, right?
44:59
In that future that you're envisioning. Right?
45:02
So you need you need to have a good sense of how you think the world will look
45:04
like in the future, that the kids are going to grow up in,
45:08
and then from there, identified kind of skill sets, a mindset,
45:11
and then from there cascading down to how it looks like
45:13
in terms of curriculum, in terms of hardware,
45:15
and then the resources you need to provide,
45:19
to help students getting those skill sets a mindset.
45:22
Right.
45:22
And then that's really at the bottom, because I think that's a top down process
45:27
where you think about goals,
45:29
skill
45:30
sets, mindsets, and then what your schools are going to need in terms of resourcing
45:34
in order to allow your teachers and students to meet those,
45:37
skill sets and mindsets.
45:39
So to me, those it's it's a place where those three things are well thought out.
45:43
Has this underpinned a very vivid picture because I've seen
45:46
future schools that look have very much different focus.
45:49
Where I think a Waldorf school might be a future school,
45:53
even though, you know, the emphasis on technology might be very different.
45:56
Than some of the future and yet innovative schools.
45:59
But to me, it's really the intentionality behind how you think about the future
46:03
and how you how you build a vision of the future together as a workforce.
46:09
As you were talking to
46:10
Terry, I very clearly saw the IB model, actually, you know, the
46:14
the mission of the IB itself where I develop inquiring,
46:17
knowledgeable, caring young people
46:18
committed to creating a better and more peaceful world,
46:21
you know, and then when you got to like, what are the skills and mindsets?
46:24
It was like, well, that's all learner profile actually.
46:26
That's I want to be inquiring. I want to be knowledgeable.
46:28
I want to be open minded and caring.
46:30
I want to take risks like all that was learner profile, to me.
46:34
So it was it was nice.
46:35
As you were talking to, I was thinking, well,
46:36
this is quite clear with regard to what the IB is doing.
46:40
So it sounds like,
46:41
you know, when we want to have future proof
46:43
or future ready schools, it sounds like the IB model at least way
46:47
I've interpreted what you're saying here is, is really quite strong in that sense.
46:50
And so I think what I'm taking away from this is, as an educator,
46:54
I don't necessarily have to think future ready school means that we have
46:58
all this tech in our rooms, and we have robots roaming around
47:01
and all this sort of thing, but rather, am I intentional about why
47:05
I'm choosing these particular things
47:06
to develop these skills, these mindsets, these attitudes toward learning
47:10
so that we can achieve this goal that is going to make sure that we have a
47:14
a society and a culture that creates the outcomes we're looking for,
47:17
in education as well.
47:19
Is that kind of a fair connection?
47:21
I know to me, in one sentence, it's schools having clarity
47:25
about enduring skill sets and mindsets,
47:30
where all
47:30
teachers are in agreement about the set of skills that
47:34
we want to build because they're going to help our students 20 or 30 years now.
47:38
Right.
47:38
And it is going to be arithmetic and reading your, your, your three R’s then
47:43
great, right.
47:44
But I haven't seen a school that, you know, is just looking at those.
47:48
I mean, I mean, yeah, the, the the idea of thinking
47:51
about enduring skill sets and mindsets as a stand, the test of time.
47:56
Not not all schools devote the time to think about that
48:00
because I think for so my an operational staff sometimes.
48:03
Do you think that would be your kind of main piece of advice
48:06
I guess, to to anybody
48:07
who's listening here
48:07
and thinking about adopting new tech or something like that is just first
48:11
have a clear idea of what you're aiming for
48:13
and then understand if this tool is going to support the development of that aim.
48:17
Yeah, I mean, I think a lot of times as a teacher, you have your,
48:21
I mean, we learn about implicit and explicit curriculum, right?
48:24
You have what you need to teach.
48:26
You have your learning goals, and you all your students need to leave
48:30
the classroom by the end of this year acquiring certain skills.
48:33
But I think teachers also are very deeply the individual philosophies
48:36
about what, teaching means to them and why they teach.
48:40
Right.
48:41
And I think sometimes that that tension between between those two things
48:45
could help or hinder teachers from adopting new technology.
48:50
And I think we need to bring that to the fore to discuss about, you know,
48:55
why and what incentivizes teachers to use new tech in the classroom.
48:59
Right.
48:59
And I think, like I said,
49:01
if we are thinking about skill sets and mindsets, then it's very clear
49:05
the sort of technologies that we want to use
49:07
and how we want to use that with our students,
49:09
whether we want to adopt a mindset where, well, Gen AI is going to cause
49:13
kids to oh, they're going to cheat all the time.
49:15
Which may be true. Right.
49:16
But is the conversation going to end there? Right.
49:19
So I think a lot of it is to kind of having that broader discussion as a school
49:23
on what are the future skills that we want to promote and why.
49:27
Great.
49:28
Thank you so much, Terry, for this conversation.
49:30
And this has been such a pleasure to get to hear from you, hear
49:33
your ideas, and yeah, we're so glad you could join us today.
49:37
Yeah, absolutely. Terry, thanks so much.
49:38
I mean, what I'm taking away from here,
49:40
I think is super actionable for most educators.
49:42
You know, it's be clear on your purpose.
49:45
Be clear on what you're trying to achieve with students.
49:47
Think critically about whatever tech you're going to be bringing in
49:49
as long as it serves that particular purpose.
49:52
And when it comes to onboarding or helping people get used to it, you know, be
49:56
aware of your sort of 10% early adopters and maybe invest in them a little bit.
49:59
But, you know, be intentional about the way that you're growing,
50:02
that culture/
50:04
Diverge and then let's converge again. Yeah, yeah.
50:08
No, I think I'm taking away from this some pretty actionable things that we can
50:11
do, you know, within schools itself, as we get that bombardment of emails of
50:15
tech tools that we can play with.
50:16
So, Terry, thanks so much has been really useful.
50:19
And I think for our listeners as well.
50:21
So we really appreciate you taking the time.
50:22
Thank you so much. It's been an honor.
50:24
IB Unplugged is a Kognity podcast hosted by John Patton
50:28
and Courtney Marline and produced by Katilina Gaffney.
50:31
Be sure to subscribe or follow and share with your fellow IB educators.
50:35
If you'd like to submit a topic, request, or question, please do
50:38
so on kognity.com/ibunplugged.
50:41
Let's keep the conversation going
50:42
and support each other in teaching with confidence, creativity, and joy.
50:46
See you next time.