Latest / Skin Anarchy / InStyle Beauty Editor, Erin Lukas

Transcript

InStyle Beauty Editor, Erin Lukas · Skin Anarchy

• 0:01
  SPEAKER_00: Yellow four.
• 0:11
  SPEAKER_00: Five out of five.
• 0:22
  SPEAKER_00: We have a four available now.
• 0:24
  SPEAKER_00: We didn't fit here.
• 0:25
  SPEAKER_00: Captain O'Fit this episode's page to learn more.
• 0:34
  SPEAKER_01: Hey guys, welcome back to Anarchy.
• 0:37
  SPEAKER_01: I know I've been introducing a lot of episodes lately on a daily basis, but I'm just so thrilled and excited because I've had the opportunity to talk to so many amazing people.
• 0:47
  SPEAKER_01: So everyone who's come on to the show, my heartfelt thank you and um truly, you know, thank you very much.
• 0:54
  SPEAKER_01: So I am so thankful for everybody listening and everybody who is willing to come onto our little show.
• 1:00
  SPEAKER_01: Um but without further ado, I want to introduce you guys to Erin Lucas.
• 1:03
  SPEAKER_01: Um, Erin is the beauty editor at InStyle magazine.
• 1:07
  SPEAKER_01: She has a lot of experience in the editorial world and the journalism world.
• 1:10
  SPEAKER_01: So welcome, Erin.
• 1:11
  SPEAKER_01: I'm so happy that you're here with us today.
• 1:17
  SPEAKER_02: Thanks so much for having me.
• 1:18
  SPEAKER_02: I'm really excited to be here and talk all things skincare and beauty editorial with you.
• 1:23
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I I can't wait.
• 1:25
  SPEAKER_01: I really want to get started by you telling us um kind of like all about your beauty journey and like how you got into like journalism and the beauty editorial world and you know, um just kind of take us on that journey with you because I think people don't really understand, you know, how rigorous of a career path it is, you know, especially for women.
• 1:43
  SPEAKER_01: Um, we have to always fight harder, it seems.
• 1:45
  SPEAKER_01: So I'd love it if you'd share that with us.
• 1:47
  SPEAKER_02: Sure.
• 1:48
  SPEAKER_02: Um, it definitely has been a journey, um, to say the least.
• 1:52
  SPEAKER_02: So I'm originally from Canada.
• 1:54
  SPEAKER_02: I grew up in a city called Windsor, Ontario, and it's on the border with Detroit.
• 1:59
  SPEAKER_02: So it's very connected to the states.
• 2:03
  SPEAKER_02: When people say they're from Windsor, they usually say um they're from Windsor, Detroit, which makes no sense because it's another country.
• 2:10
  SPEAKER_02: Um but yeah, so it's like we're right across the river from Detroit and from the US.
• 2:15
  SPEAKER_02: So we had this close relationship, but at the same time, I am from another country.
• 2:20
  SPEAKER_02: So I do have to go through all of the processes with work visas.
• 2:24
  SPEAKER_02: Um, so that adds another layer of, you know, um complexity, yeah, yeah, of getting into the industry.
• 2:32
  SPEAKER_02: So yeah, so growing up, like I was always a reader, my nose was always in a book.
• 2:37
  SPEAKER_02: I read like higher than my grade level, just spent all my all my free time reading.
• 2:43
  SPEAKER_02: And when I was about 11 or 12, I started reading magazines.
• 2:50
  SPEAKER_02: And this was the early 2000s, so it was when Teen People just started, Teen Vogue.
• 2:56
  SPEAKER_02: I had descriptions to both of those.
• 2:58
  SPEAKER_02: They were amazing, legitimately read them cover to cover, along with about like five or six other magazines, including Regular Vogue, um, L Girl, another teen magazine RIP.
• 3:10
  SPEAKER_02: Same with Cosmo Girl.
• 3:11
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 3:12
  SPEAKER_01: Oh my god, remember when Cosmo was like this?
• 3:14
  SPEAKER_01: Like I had to hide it from my mother.
• 3:16
  SPEAKER_01: Like I didn't want her to see like my Cosmo because they always had such like, you know, like cutting-edge articles, and it was very some risque covers, and it was really cool.
• 3:24
  SPEAKER_01: I loved it.
• 3:25
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, this was a teen edition, so it was for teens and it was amazing.
• 3:30
  SPEAKER_02: So I read all those teen magazines.
• 3:32
  SPEAKER_02: I also had InStyle every month, and my mom never used to get upset about buying InStyle for me because it was always the biggest.
• 3:40
  SPEAKER_02: So this was like in the heyday of print when issues would be like hundreds of pages like long.
• 3:45
  SPEAKER_02: It look like an encyclopedia every month.
• 3:48
  SPEAKER_02: So yeah, yeah.
• 3:49
  SPEAKER_02: So I read all those and I would really I would read cover to cover, I would always look at the masthead and I would kind of notice who did what.
• 3:58
  SPEAKER_02: So I was like, oh, this writer or editor always like has their byline on these pages, and like not really thinking about the fact that, oh, like this is a career, but I was subconsciously like preparing myself for my future.
• 4:13
  SPEAKER_02: But yeah, so I used to memorize just like who did what, and I also really paid close attention to you know, like the different makeup artists that were featured and things like that.
• 4:23
  SPEAKER_02: So I knew all these like who these people were in the industry back then.
• 4:27
  SPEAKER_02: Um, so yeah, so always magazines, this was before like digital websites.
• 4:33
  SPEAKER_02: So print was where I got like all my inspiration.
• 4:36
  SPEAKER_02: Um, I was also like an avid reader of nylon magazine, which was probably my like biggest inspiration of where I got beauty and just fashion and like music inspiration um when I was in high school.
• 4:50
  SPEAKER_02: So yeah, so sidelining off of that, um, I was always interested in magazines and reading, but I am also a classically trained musician.
• 5:00
  SPEAKER_02: And I Oh, how cool!
• 5:02
  SPEAKER_01: That's amazing.
• 5:02
  SPEAKER_01: I'm sorry, I just got excited.
• 5:04
  SPEAKER_02: I know, I I get I trust me, this all kind of coincide, like it'll all come together as to why that's relevant.
• 5:11
  SPEAKER_02: So I studied opera music and I was an opera singer and I played violin, and then I also took piano lessons, and I was extremely adamant about going to university after high school to study opera singing.
• 5:25
  SPEAKER_02: Like that, that is like what I wanted to do.
• 5:27
  SPEAKER_02: And aside from that, I did like English.
• 5:30
  SPEAKER_02: I did really well in English in high school.
• 5:32
  SPEAKER_02: I also took a creative writing class in my senior year of high school and really liked it.
• 5:39
  SPEAKER_02: And that was at the suggestion of my mom.
• 5:41
  SPEAKER_02: So when I was going to apply for college, my I was like really adamant, okay, I'm gonna do like vocal performance for opera, like did all the editions, like gotten to the University of Windsor, which is in where I'm from.
• 5:53
  SPEAKER_02: And my mom at the same time, she was like, Why don't you just apply to creative writing in English, like just in case you change your mind?
• 5:59
  SPEAKER_02: And I was like, I was like, No, I was like, No, no, no, I am going to school for music.
• 6:05
  SPEAKER_02: And so um, I ended up applying though for English too, and then I did the whole audition process for opera, and after like going to like the school for the auditions, I was like, you know what, this like really doesn't feel right.
• 6:18
  SPEAKER_02: Like, I don't think this is what I'm supposed to do.
• 6:21
  SPEAKER_01: And then I also I didn't want to be a a music teacher, and that's like more realistic than being like you know, it's yeah, and I'm I'm not trying to interrupt you, but it's funny that you mention opera because I had a very close friend in college, like we were um, you know, we were on the the only girls' floor in our dorm room, and it was supposed to be a quiet floor, but obviously you know how that works out.
• 6:42
  SPEAKER_01: But um he was um an opera singer and she went to school at University of Cincinnati, which is one of the top schools for music, right?
• 6:51
  SPEAKER_01: Um for opera, and she's a phenomenal, phenomenal artist.
• 6:54
  SPEAKER_01: And I remember um, you know, she ended up dropping out because she literally said almost the same thing.
• 6:59
  SPEAKER_01: You said she was like, I don't want to teach this stuff.
• 7:01
  SPEAKER_01: Like, I'm not like I love music, but it's not the path I would go down with a with a degree in it, isn't what I want.
• 7:08
  SPEAKER_01: You know what I mean?
• 7:09
  SPEAKER_01: So I right.
• 7:10
  SPEAKER_02: It's like I knew like nothing against teachers, very important job, and I respect my I respect anyone who's a teacher, it's a tough job.
• 7:17
  SPEAKER_02: Um, I have a family full of teachers, so I just knew I didn't like that wasn't what I wanted to do.
• 7:23
  SPEAKER_02: Um, so yeah, so I ended up taking English writing, English literature and creative writing, and I was writing like prose and short stories and poetry as part of my program.
• 7:35
  SPEAKER_02: And in my second to last year of university, in my last year of university, I did a journalism class and we made a magazine.
• 7:46
  SPEAKER_02: And then I was like, oh my God, I really love the process of making and writing these, like these types of things.
• 7:52
  SPEAKER_02: And in my last year, I edited a poetry book for that was part of my professor's um press.
• 7:59
  SPEAKER_02: He owns one of the like oldest um indie book presses in Canada.
• 8:06
  SPEAKER_02: That's so cool.
• 8:08
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 8:08
  SPEAKER_02: So like I did the whole process of just editing the book that from like a legitimate writer that was like a project me and a few classmates had.
• 8:16
  SPEAKER_02: And I just really love the process.
• 8:18
  SPEAKER_02: So I graduated and I ended up moving to Toronto because in Canada, that's like really if you want to work in publishing, that's like the place you go.
• 8:27
  SPEAKER_02: There's not really, it's like New York where yes, like all of the magazines or like book publishing, like a lot of it's in New York.
• 8:34
  SPEAKER_02: Um, so there it's Toronto.
• 8:36
  SPEAKER_02: So I went there and I did a few internships.
• 8:40
  SPEAKER_02: So I interned at Canadian Living Magazine, which is the Canadian equivalent of good housekeeping.
• 8:46
  SPEAKER_02: So there's a test kitchen there.
• 8:48
  SPEAKER_02: They don't have the whole lab with all of the scientists, but there's a test kitchen and the cooking aspect is like a huge part of the magazine.
• 8:55
  SPEAKER_02: And then there's a fashion and beauty section.
• 8:58
  SPEAKER_02: So I interned there, and this was in 2011.
• 9:03
  SPEAKER_02: So there was a website, and the the internet though was like not what it is today.
• 9:09
  SPEAKER_02: It was like there's a bunch of blogs.
• 9:11
  SPEAKER_02: It was like when bloggers were like really starting to be a fixed.
• 9:14
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, like Tumblr and stuff, like yeah, and just like the fashion, like bloggers, like the blogger websites.
• 9:20
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and there was the magazine had a website and it was just CanadianLiving.com.
• 9:27
  SPEAKER_02: And then there was also a blog on the website, which was like separate from the regular content of the website.
• 9:33
  SPEAKER_02: So I did some writing for that.
• 9:35
  SPEAKER_02: And then I was also like calling in samples for print shoots and yeah, so it was a mix of digital and print, but I really liked the digital aspect because I'm a very impatient person and I like just being able to create something and then it go up, and you know, so after that, I did another internship at Fashion Magazine, and that um was online for the website strictly.
• 10:01
  SPEAKER_02: And I interned under um Randy Bergman, and she was in Toronto at the time, but she had been in New York and she interned at Team Vogue, and I was like, oh my god, she's so cool.
• 10:13
  SPEAKER_02: Like she lived in New York.
• 10:15
  SPEAKER_01: You found your mentor, yeah.
• 10:16
  SPEAKER_02: Like, so and she like really ran the website, like the closest to how a website is run today.
• 10:23
  SPEAKER_02: Like there were stories going up every day, there was like franchises, there was celebrity news, there was celebrity fashion and beauty news.
• 10:30
  SPEAKER_02: So I did a little bit of like everything.
• 10:32
  SPEAKER_02: It was a very small team.
• 10:34
  SPEAKER_02: So I was there for four months.
• 10:36
  SPEAKER_02: And then after that, I got a call from my boss at Canadian Living, Julia McEwen and Catherine Fleming, and I worked with them freelance three days a week, and it was mostly doing fact-checking for the print stories and then also writing more content for the blog, which was still a thing then.
• 10:57
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 10:58
  SPEAKER_02: Like 2012, 2013.
• 11:00
  SPEAKER_02: So then after that, I was freelancing for them and a few other places, and I was doing working retail on the side to make ends meet, you know.
• 11:10
  SPEAKER_01: Um yeah, I I feel like that happens a lot in the um beauty world in the beginning.
• 11:16
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 11:17
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 11:17
  SPEAKER_01: Like I've heard that from a lot of people that they were kind of working in retail and they got to know people through there as well.
• 11:22
  SPEAKER_02: So yeah, yeah.
• 11:24
  SPEAKER_02: It's just like what you have to do in order to, you know, pay rent while you're trying to forward your career.
• 11:31
  SPEAKER_02: But yeah, so I was doing that for a few years and I kept like trying to apply for jobs there in the industry, and there weren't a lot, like it's very, very small, and it's even smaller now than it was then.
• 11:43
  SPEAKER_02: And I think, and I found it was like very hard to break in and you know, not like down talking anyone there, but it was just like a very closed group where it was like hard to get in, like people had a small circle, yeah.
• 11:56
  SPEAKER_02: And like I feel like people had egos more so than uh what I've even experienced here.
• 12:01
  SPEAKER_02: Like again, not like not shading anyone into it's that's the reality of it.
• 12:07
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, yeah.
• 12:08
  SPEAKER_02: So I was doing that for a few years, and I was just like at that point really frustrated and happy because I knew I was good enough to be working in the industry full time, and that was what I wanted to do.
• 12:19
  SPEAKER_02: But I was also like, okay, do I need to explore other options because I I don't like I don't want to work retail as a sales associate, like you know, like and I just you know, and other than like this, I didn't know what else I wanted to do.
• 12:33
  SPEAKER_02: So I actually moved to New York and I did another degree in um advertising and marketing communications at FIT because I was like, okay, maybe I'll like work on the brand side doing copywriting.
• 12:47
  SPEAKER_02: And a lot of brands look for like an advertising background, and I obviously didn't have that.
• 12:51
  SPEAKER_02: So I'm like, okay, I'll go there, I'll do a one-year degree.
• 12:54
  SPEAKER_02: I just really needed a change of scenery.
• 12:57
  SPEAKER_02: I was just feeling like very like uninspired and unmotivated.
• 13:02
  SPEAKER_02: And I was like, you know, I'll go, I'll go do the program, stay there for two years.
• 13:06
  SPEAKER_02: And if I come back to Toronto after, like, I would have had an amazing experience and like learned so much.
• 13:11
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 13:12
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 13:12
  SPEAKER_01: And that's I think everyone does that in any professional track.
• 13:15
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I, you know, I know in like medicine we have like this like path that's carved out for us, but I I mean even in undergrad, we have to do things like work in a research lab and be like the you know what I mean, like the little like the beyond basically, you know what I mean, for all the postdocs.
• 13:30
  SPEAKER_01: So yeah, I get it.
• 13:31
  SPEAKER_01: And it's it's hard.
• 13:32
  SPEAKER_02: So yeah, so I ended up doing that.
• 13:34
  SPEAKER_02: And then while I was doing that, I interned again because I was like, you know what?
• 13:40
  SPEAKER_02: I'm as I'm here, I might as well like intern again because I didn't have a high position in editorial or anywhere in Canada.
• 13:48
  SPEAKER_02: So I'm like, you know, like no one's really gonna pay attention to me, like if I don't get some experience here.
• 13:55
  SPEAKER_02: So I interned at a few places, and then after I was done school, I started freelancing and I did freelance writing for Teen Vogue, I did freelance writing for nylon, um, into the gloss.
• 14:08
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and then I also was still in freelance writing for Fashion Magazine in Canada, and I was doing a mix of beauty and fashion and celebrity news.
• 14:19
  SPEAKER_02: And I was always like drawn more to beauty, but I I wanted to be well-rounded and I was like, you know what?
• 14:26
  SPEAKER_02: Like I would like my main goal is to be in beauty, but um, at least I'll be well-rounded.
• 14:33
  SPEAKER_02: And if a position comes up somewhere, then I like will be qualified for it because I have experience in writing all of these things, but um, I definitely like have always been more gravitated towards um beauty because of the science behind it and just the development and like the different innovation of products, and then also you know, like at the core, like beauty is one size fits all.
• 14:58
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, if you take away all of the you know, um the compartmentalization and the bluff and all that, yeah.
• 15:05
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, like if you if you take away like the like discrimination that's happened, like it at the core, like everyone can use a lipstick, everyone can use a moisturizer, like you don't have to be a certain size, but then exactly the layer of like you know, brands not making the right shades for everyone.
• 15:22
  SPEAKER_02: Well, that kind of takes that away.
• 15:24
  SPEAKER_02: But at the heart and the core of it, um, there is something in beauty for everyone.
• 15:29
  SPEAKER_01: No, I think that's a beautiful point.
• 15:31
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, you know, no pun intended, but um like I I think it's really, really a great point.
• 15:36
  SPEAKER_01: And I want to talk a little bit about that because I think um, you know, I think people sometimes we like to assume that there are like bad intentions behind something that comes out that's not ideal or perfect or might not suit everybody, right?
• 15:51
  SPEAKER_01: And I think I think that there's definitely some cases where maybe that was the key where nobody really kept in mind um diversity and inclusivity or any of these factors that we look for now in beauty.
• 16:01
  SPEAKER_01: But I think from the general standpoint, like you said, at the heart of it, um, I really want to believe that people who are in the beauty industry, they have this goal and mission to just make people feel more, you know, beautiful and at their best.
• 16:15
  SPEAKER_01: You know what I'm saying?
• 16:16
  SPEAKER_01: So it's like not even like I I get very turned off with like the whole idea of people attacking brands or like one magazine or one, you know what I'm saying?
• 16:25
  SPEAKER_01: Like just it doesn't sit well with me.
• 16:28
  SPEAKER_02: So yeah, and then so finally, um, I was also freelancing for InStyle at the time, doing for beauty at um instyle.com, the brand the magazine's website.
• 16:39
  SPEAKER_02: And then um a full-time position opens up.
• 16:43
  SPEAKER_02: So I was hired there.
• 16:44
  SPEAKER_02: My title at the time was Beauty Writer, and I've since had a few um promotional title changes, and now I am beauty editor at instyle.com.
• 16:54
  SPEAKER_02: So I work on the website and I've been there for four years now, which is a long time in publishing, and so much has changed on like the way that we operate the website and what we how we write about things in the past four years.
• 17:09
  SPEAKER_02: And yeah, it's it's really exciting.
• 17:12
  SPEAKER_02: I love digital, just it's fast paced.
• 17:14
  SPEAKER_02: Um, I'm never bored.
• 17:16
  SPEAKER_02: Um, there's so many different ways to write about things and cover things online.
• 17:21
  SPEAKER_02: And I also love the instant gratification of being able to see how many people read certain stories.
• 17:30
  SPEAKER_01: Of course.
• 17:30
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that's your work, you know.
• 17:33
  SPEAKER_01: I I want to ask you though, because I think this is something that um I'm not gonna lie, I kind of fell into this trap as well, you know, watching all the movies about becoming an editor for a big, you know, a high fashion magazine.
• 17:44
  SPEAKER_01: Like I know like Devil Wears Prada's, you know, I love that movie.
• 17:47
  SPEAKER_01: No hate.
• 17:48
  SPEAKER_01: Um, you know, I love, love that movie, but I know there are so many out there that kind of glorified this idea of becoming a beauty editor or uh, you know, something along those lines.
• 17:57
  SPEAKER_01: And um I want to talk about how unrealistic I think it is.
• 18:02
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I don't know if I'm right or wrong about thinking that you're just gonna move to New York and then you're gonna become a beauty editor.
• 18:07
  SPEAKER_01: You know what I mean?
• 18:08
  SPEAKER_01: Like it's it, it's that's something I I think I'm not and I'm not trying to discourage anyone.
• 18:12
  SPEAKER_01: I just want to bring light to the idea of this is an incredibly competitive field and um you have to really kind of um be, you know, ambitious and really kind of go for it, just like you would any other profession.
• 18:24
  SPEAKER_01: But you know, I look at it like Gray's Anatomy for medicine, right?
• 18:26
  SPEAKER_01: Like yeah, yeah.
• 18:27
  SPEAKER_01: Nothing in life in medicine is like Gray's Anatomy for everyone out there.
• 18:30
  SPEAKER_01: So it's like, yeah.
• 18:32
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 18:32
  SPEAKER_02: I think it's like a really like good example is I don't know if you've ever seen the show The Bold type.
• 18:38
  SPEAKER_02: It's like it's all about the make like they were working at a magazine and it's supposed to kind of be like a fake version of Cosmo, and the one girl writes this one like really good story that goes viral, and then she gets like her own vertical based off of that.
• 18:52
  SPEAKER_02: Like it's just like that's like just I don't know, like it's just like you just need to like what like yeah.
• 18:59
  SPEAKER_02: So um, but going back to your point is yeah, it's very tough to get into, and also a lot of it is, you know, with the way that the media industry is right now, and especially even more so during COVID, there's it's not like there's like flowing amounts of jobs like to get in the industry.
• 19:19
  SPEAKER_02: So it can take a long time, and a lot of it it comes down to, you know, networking and knowing people is one aspect of it, being in the right place at the right time, and then also just hustling with your actual work.
• 19:35
  SPEAKER_02: Um, when I moved to New York, I knew no one.
• 19:39
  SPEAKER_02: Like I legitimately not didn't knew not one person.
• 19:42
  SPEAKER_02: So I got a lot of my my writing jobs, I just cold emailed them.
• 19:48
  SPEAKER_02: I just, you know, I looked up, okay, like who writes what, who is the editor where, figured out their email format, um, which it's not that hard to figure out if um you Google, um, do some Googling.
• 20:02
  SPEAKER_02: Um and yeah, like I basically just wrote emails just saying um, you know, why I wanted to write for the website, what I like a recent thing they did that I really liked, um, a few clips and of my past writing.
• 20:17
  SPEAKER_02: And yeah, that like that's really how I got most of my opportunities.
• 20:22
  SPEAKER_02: Um and then I love that.
• 20:24
  SPEAKER_02: I love that, you know, like my job now I got from came out of one of those opportunities.
• 20:30
  SPEAKER_02: Um, so yeah, like it, it's there's a lot of different factors, but yeah, like I don't want to discourage anyone either.
• 20:37
  SPEAKER_02: Um, but it's it's hard.
• 20:40
  SPEAKER_02: Like it's it's hard.
• 20:41
  SPEAKER_02: Like there's not, you know, it's there there's not a ton of jobs right now anywhere.
• 20:47
  SPEAKER_02: But um Yeah, in any in any industry, yeah.
• 20:49
  SPEAKER_01: I know and it's hard.
• 20:51
  SPEAKER_01: Um I wanna I wanna actually ask you because um I'm interested in the the writing um aspect of beauty editorial.
• 21:00
  SPEAKER_01: Um, in terms of your writing, I mean, did you have moments where somebody was really critiquing you and you had to like rethink your style or do you have a style of writing?
• 21:08
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, how do you uh really how do you approach it um when you're looking at a piece, like and you really want to write, like what goes through your mind and um what's your process?
• 21:19
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, so you know, since I work for InStyle, we are a publication, but we have a brand.
• 21:25
  SPEAKER_02: So I I I put I do take our brand into consideration.
• 21:29
  SPEAKER_02: Like there's certain like, you know, maybe like colloquial phrases like I wouldn't use because they don't really like work with our audience.
• 21:36
  SPEAKER_02: But so a lot of it is also just, you know, you finding your writing voice, but then you also have to kind of tailor your writing voice to that brand.
• 21:46
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 21:46
  SPEAKER_02: Um, so I think about that always, which at this point comes second nature just because I have worked there for a few years.
• 21:54
  SPEAKER_02: But um, yeah, so I like to approach beauty.
• 21:58
  SPEAKER_02: I think, I mean.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_02: Beauty's fun, like you know, like who doesn't like trying a new mascara, you know?
• 22:05
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 22:06
  SPEAKER_02: Um I like to have, you know, I like to have a fun kind of tone and conversational, relatable.
• 22:15
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and it really just depends on the story too.
• 22:18
  SPEAKER_02: If I'm doing a reported story about plastic surgery, for example, like I'm not gonna have the same kind of tone as I would if I'm writing about um a moisturizer that completely helped stop my skin from flaking from my dry indoor air, you know?
• 22:35
  SPEAKER_02: Right, right.
• 22:36
  SPEAKER_02: So I think it kind of like depends a little bit on the story too.
• 22:39
  SPEAKER_02: Um, because you know, there's a difference between writing a piece that's a little bit more of like your first person review of a product that you really liked, than something that is meant to be informative about like a skincare ingredient or a skin condition.
• 22:54
  SPEAKER_01: Right, right.
• 22:55
  SPEAKER_01: There's a lot more research, I think, right?
• 22:57
  SPEAKER_01: That goes into that.
• 22:58
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, there's a lot, there's research.
• 23:00
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and then also really explaining it the concern or the ingredient in a straightforward way that isn't too technical or scientific, that it would go over the reader's head because we want to appeal to a right wide audience, but also still contains the pertinent information that is factual.
• 23:24
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 23:25
  SPEAKER_01: And that makes sense.
• 23:26
  SPEAKER_01: And you know, I actually um I want to bring up the point that um when it comes to really talking about a brand or talking about the strengths or weaknesses of a brand, I think the the profession of being a writer um is such a great um angle to have because you're really in a in a lot of ways, you're you know, when you're writing about something, I would assume you're trying to come up with come at it with all different angles, right?
• 23:51
  SPEAKER_01: Like in terms of perspective.
• 23:52
  SPEAKER_01: Like you're, I mean, I think that unbiased and you know, just really candid conversation that you have in an article, um, I think that might go a long way in terms of you know, prom not promoting, but like really shining a light on a product or a service, like more so than somebody just saying, Hey, I saw this on Facebook and I'm going to go with this story instead.
• 24:14
  SPEAKER_01: You know what I'm saying?
• 24:15
  SPEAKER_01: Like I feel like I feel like you need people need to go to the writers and the editors and realize that there's a lot of homework that went behind what they wrote.
• 24:23
  SPEAKER_01: You know what I mean?
• 24:24
  SPEAKER_01: So maybe use these articles as a reference point rather than the social media hype that comes with like so many different, you know, beauty products and um movements.
• 24:34
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 24:34
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I think uh social media is great in the sense that you know it's really helped a lot of brands get visibility and you know, it's fun way to share things, but there's also, and again, like I'm this is like a very overarching statement, and I'm not saying it for everyone, but I think you know, there's a lot of misinformation that happens on there, and some of it has come from like influencers in the past, and I think we're kind of seeing in response to that, a lot of people just really more they want factual information, either like from influencers, from social media, they're kind of calling out BS and things.
• 25:14
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and I think yeah, there's yeah, it's important.
• 25:18
  SPEAKER_02: Like I don't want to, you know, make claims about something that isn't completely true.
• 25:25
  SPEAKER_02: And I think definitely I approach things unbiasedly, like I see a lot of brands, I see a lot of products, and I won't write something from a per first person perspective that I haven't personally tried and used.
• 25:41
  SPEAKER_01: Right, right.
• 25:42
  SPEAKER_01: And that's and that's good because um I know, like, I mean, this might be a little, you know, revealing, but I know that in the influencer world, um, there's a lot of people who are accepting products from brands, and then literally they will take a picture and and just say that they loved it.
• 25:58
  SPEAKER_01: And I I'm not lying to you, I've I've known some of these people and I'm sitting there like, why would you do that?
• 26:03
  SPEAKER_01: Like, why, like you have to stay true to your work.
• 26:05
  SPEAKER_01: And I think a big component behind that goes into like the idea that if you really wanted to be somebody who can sit and talk about beauty from a like from a meaningful standpoint, such as yourself, right?
• 26:16
  SPEAKER_01: And you and you enter the editorial world, that is completely different than an influencer who's getting like 50 boxes a day of different brands, you know what I mean, and just saying, well, click, click, click, and I love them all, you know.
• 26:28
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 26:28
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 26:28
  SPEAKER_02: And you know, it's like from our perspective too, like you'll see like on like our website and other websites where we might there might be a story, like, for example, where it's like, um, like like the 10 best cleansing bombs, and that's like a story that's supposed to appeal for to everyone looking for a cleansing bomb, different skin concerns, different price points.
• 26:49
  SPEAKER_02: Like if I'm doing a roundup like that, I look at the ingredients and like the formulas, and I might not have tried all of those ones, but I wouldn't put something in that doesn't, you know, seem credible or legit.
• 27:00
  SPEAKER_02: But if I'm like, if you see me on my Instagram story being like, I love this moisturizer, or I write a first-person story on the site where I'm like, I love this moisturizer.
• 27:10
  SPEAKER_02: It's I've like 100% used that and experienced the benefits of it.
• 27:15
  SPEAKER_01: Now, one thing I want to ask you is that I noticed that with brands when they get published in um a reputable magazine um such as InStyle or, you know, any of the others, um, I noticed that it's kind of like a domino effect where one magazine picks up on the product and then everybody else wants to feature them as well.
• 27:31
  SPEAKER_01: Um, has have you ever had a situation and obviously you don't have to name anything, but um, where you might have seen something that's gaining a lot of traffic, but you're like, I don't know if I stand behind this fully yet, you know, and and um you've had to like kind of go out of your past to figure out do you really want to feature them or um, you know, like something like that.
• 27:51
  SPEAKER_02: Um yeah, I mean, I there's there's definitely been situations where I've seen some things and I've been like, oh, I haven't heard of that yet.
• 27:59
  SPEAKER_02: And I've seen a few people write of it about it, or like that brand hasn't reached out to me to kind of um teach me or show me about that product.
• 28:07
  SPEAKER_02: And yeah, I've definitely I've definitely like then done research and I'm just like, oh, like maybe I don't know.
• 28:12
  SPEAKER_02: Um, but you know, again, it's like I also have to look at it personally, whereas like maybe I wouldn't use something because it doesn't work for me personally.
• 28:22
  SPEAKER_02: But if I think it's something our readers would be interested in and like the formula and the brand, you know, seems really innovative, or just they have like maybe some clinical studies behind it or like some other research, then like I would still cover it.
• 28:37
  SPEAKER_02: Um, just because again, it's like I'm I write about things I personally like, but I also am writing for like our website's audience, which might not have the same concerns as me, might have different, you know, might not spend as much money as I would on something, um, or vice versa.
• 28:55
  SPEAKER_02: You know, there's a lot of different factors.
• 28:56
  SPEAKER_02: So I think that it really it really just comes down to what the brand is saying, what they're about, what their like ingredients they're using, and that's like a main factor to.
• 29:09
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 29:09
  SPEAKER_01: That makes sense.
• 29:10
  SPEAKER_01: That actually makes sense.
• 29:11
  SPEAKER_01: And I think the the vision behind a brand um is really important because I still consider beauty one of those fields where yes, there's a lot of um science and there's a lot of stuff that's backing up a lot of the products that are coming out now, especially, but also it's almost like um an inspirational space, right?
• 29:27
  SPEAKER_01: Like it's like, you know, you you gain, I know I gained inspiration, you know, when you were talking about your magazines and the teams.
• 29:32
  SPEAKER_01: I was the same kind of you know, same situation.
• 29:35
  SPEAKER_01: I I loved reading magazines and I used to see the different products and especially the perfumes.
• 29:40
  SPEAKER_01: Oh my god, don't lose that.
• 29:41
  SPEAKER_01: I know.
• 29:42
  SPEAKER_01: I still do that to watch this, but you know what I'm saying?
• 29:46
  SPEAKER_01: Like it was like inspiring and it was like I you could kind of pick from a catalog of so many beautiful things and um really kind of figure out which you liked.
• 29:54
  SPEAKER_01: So, you know, I I really, really like that.
• 29:56
  SPEAKER_01: And I thought that, you know, the beauty space is a place where um anyone can go and get inspired if they really want to.
• 30:03
  SPEAKER_01: And I think um, you know, I want to know about like that and how that feeds into your work.
• 30:08
  SPEAKER_01: Um, do you still do you look at it like that?
• 30:10
  SPEAKER_01: Or um how do you see the whole beauty beauty industry?
• 30:14
  SPEAKER_02: Uh in terms of finding inspiration or yeah, like what do you how do you see the space?
• 30:19
  SPEAKER_01: Like, do you see it as more of like a right or left brain space?
• 30:22
  SPEAKER_01: Like, you know what I'm trying to say?
• 30:24
  SPEAKER_01: Like you're either really creative or you're really like into math.
• 30:27
  SPEAKER_01: So like how do you look at the beauty program?
• 30:30
  SPEAKER_02: I I think what appeals to me about the beauty world that it's a little bit right and left because I I grew up, I was really bad at science and math, but I find the science and the innovation in skincare especially extremely fascinating.
• 30:46
  SPEAKER_02: And I'm a geek out over reading studies and like reading up on different ingredients and um things like that.
• 30:54
  SPEAKER_02: So I think there's like a little bit of both in skincare because then, you know, a brand might be really clinical-based, let's say, but then they might have a beautiful package and then that kind of combines both of it.
• 31:06
  SPEAKER_02: And the packaging or the jar is like really aesthetically pleasing and it looks beautiful in your medicine cabinet or like on your bathroom counter or like on your vanity in your room, but it's like the best of both worlds, and then you know, you they have like a beautiful campaign image with like models with like nice skin or just realistic people that are just beautiful.
• 31:28
  SPEAKER_02: So I think it's I think what appeals to me is that it's a little bit of everything.
• 31:33
  SPEAKER_02: Um, you know, and like there's definitely, you know, like there's some brands that are more science-based than others, or more um, they they just they're really, you know, great clinical formulas.
• 31:47
  SPEAKER_02: Their packaging might not be like the most like trendy millennial looking thing, but still great products.
• 31:53
  SPEAKER_02: So it's like I feel like there's space for a little bit of everything, but um yeah, I think like definitely I get inspired, especially, you know, and we're not talking about skincare, but with uh makeup artists, like following them on Instagram is just there's it's there's so many beautiful images and hairstylists too.
• 32:14
  SPEAKER_01: Right, right.
• 32:14
  SPEAKER_01: No, it makes sense, and I'm glad that you mentioned that it's like a little bit of everything.
• 32:18
  SPEAKER_01: I like that.
• 32:19
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I think I don't know, from me coming from the millennial mindset, you know what I'm saying?
• 32:25
  SPEAKER_01: Like I don't I try to always dissect things in a way that's like, well, what's the motivation behind this?
• 32:30
  SPEAKER_01: But I mean, you know, moving on from that, I want to talk about skincare, obviously, um, given the name of the podcast.
• 32:35
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but um, what is something that you really, really um look for in a skincare product?
• 32:41
  SPEAKER_01: And and I'm actually asking you this with the intention of touching on natural products because I feel like there's such a movement right now.
• 32:48
  SPEAKER_01: And yes, and it's so hard.
• 32:51
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I find it hard as a consumer to you know sift and sort through all of the products that are coming out in the natural beauty sector.
• 32:58
  SPEAKER_01: So, how do you um how do you do that?
• 33:01
  SPEAKER_01: Like, how do you kind of sift through and find something that you like?
• 33:04
  SPEAKER_02: So I use, I like some clean brands, and but I also like some brands that don't label themselves as clean.
• 33:13
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and those brands are typically, again, I'm using the same kind of words, but clinical, um, scientific, um, really tons of research into their formulas.
• 33:26
  SPEAKER_02: They do clinical studies, um, just really using like scientifically proved ingredients that are effective.
• 33:33
  SPEAKER_02: Um, these brands typically don't have fragrance.
• 33:39
  SPEAKER_02: Um, they also don't have ingredients that are potentially irritating, which some natural ingredients are.
• 33:52
  SPEAKER_02: Um I just I'm under the mindset right now that I like what some clean brands are doing.
• 34:00
  SPEAKER_02: I just don't think natural automatically means better.
• 34:05
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, yep.
• 34:07
  SPEAKER_02: And I don't necessarily think that demonizing certain ingredients um or synthetics is productive.
• 34:18
  SPEAKER_02: And the kind of um framing of being more virtuous by using brands that label themselves as clean.
• 34:28
  SPEAKER_02: I also don't really like that divide that's happening.
• 34:32
  SPEAKER_02: Um again, like I said, not every clean brand is doing this.
• 34:36
  SPEAKER_02: There are a lot of clean clean brands that I I really enjoy using.
• 34:40
  SPEAKER_02: Um, but I think like again, too, you know, there's a few terms are regulated.
• 34:47
  SPEAKER_02: Like clean isn't a term that's regulated.
• 34:49
  SPEAKER_02: Umtoxic isn't a term that's regulated, and you know, non-toxic doesn't really mean anything.
• 34:59
  SPEAKER_02: Like water, like water can be toxic if you have too much of it.
• 35:03
  SPEAKER_02: Same with like chemical-free.
• 35:05
  SPEAKER_02: There's not really anything that's chemical.
• 35:08
  SPEAKER_01: There's nothing, it's the same thing as organic.
• 35:11
  SPEAKER_01: Remember when everyone was organic?
• 35:13
  SPEAKER_01: It's like we're all organic.
• 35:15
  SPEAKER_01: Organic means you have carbon in you, like right.
• 35:18
  SPEAKER_02: So it's just like using these phrases that are, you know, just creating like hysteria in people thinking that they need to use these things.
• 35:29
  SPEAKER_02: And like again, like I use like I use some clean brands, I really enjoy them.
• 35:34
  SPEAKER_02: Um, I just, you know, I just think that it's it's just kind of ironic that that space was made in response to there being no regulations on ingredients, but then they're using terms that are not regulated.
• 35:48
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 35:49
  SPEAKER_02: If you think about it that way.
• 35:50
  SPEAKER_02: But again, it's like I'm not, I'm not shitting on all of them.
• 35:53
  SPEAKER_02: I do like I like there's a handful of like clean brands that I really enjoy and that have yeah, but they're usually the ones that aren't like taking a big, you know, try blowing it all over the place.
• 36:04
  SPEAKER_01: Like we're clean, we're clean.
• 36:06
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 36:06
  SPEAKER_02: And the thing is too, is that you know, there are there are like some ingredients that sure like definitely like shouldn't be used.
• 36:13
  SPEAKER_02: Um, but the thing is too, is that a lot of the studies that have been done, they've either like been smaller or like inconclusive completely, or like the results are oh, well, like it may like absorb into the bloodstream, but like further studies have to be done.
• 36:29
  SPEAKER_02: Um, so it's like if you don't want to use ingredients um out of an abundance of caution, like that's completely fine.
• 36:34
  SPEAKER_02: Like there's things I I personally don't use out of caution.
• 36:38
  SPEAKER_02: Like, I for example, like I won't use I use natural deodorant without aluminum in it.
• 36:42
  SPEAKER_02: My mom had breast cancer, like it was she doesn't have the genes.
• 36:46
  SPEAKER_02: She it could have been environmentally caused, like hormonally caused.
• 36:51
  SPEAKER_02: So I stopped using it out of an abundance of caution, but I like you know, that's which is which is great.
• 36:57
  SPEAKER_01: That's that's what you're supposed to do.
• 36:59
  SPEAKER_01: If you have like a skin allergy to something, um you're supposed to be mindful of that, you know what I mean, and not use the term irritated, right?
• 37:07
  SPEAKER_02: But it's just like, yeah, I'm like, I'm gonna do this out of abundance of caution, but I'm not out there like demonizing regular deodorant if people still use that.
• 37:14
  SPEAKER_02: It's is a choice, like everyone has you know their own preferences and beliefs, and there's options out there for all of them.
• 37:22
  SPEAKER_02: And yeah, I just don't think we should be like demonizing people for not using clean products.
• 37:28
  SPEAKER_02: And I just don't also I this is like a side note on this topic, but I also just like don't like the phrase of people like saying there's no nasties in this, yes, like it's just like yeah, it's like I don't know.
• 37:42
  SPEAKER_02: So when I write about these, like those things, because we we do cover clean beauty on the site, it's impossible to ignore, it's like a huge movement happening in the industry.
• 37:51
  SPEAKER_02: And again, there are some brands doing like really great things and have some innovative formulas in terms of packaging too, which is like a big thing.
• 38:00
  SPEAKER_02: But um, I'm just very careful in the way that I phrase things when I'm writing it.
• 38:05
  SPEAKER_02: If it's a quote from the brand, I obviously like don't change it because it's a quote, but um, I I phrase everything else like very diplomatically, and I won't use I won't describe something as non-toxic.
• 38:19
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 38:20
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that's also part of being unbiased, right?
• 38:22
  SPEAKER_01: It's like you cannot you cannot lean one way or the other completely.
• 38:25
  SPEAKER_01: You have to be very like centered on you know actual facts and and findings and observations.
• 38:30
  SPEAKER_01: So yeah, I totally understand you on that.
• 38:32
  SPEAKER_01: I think that's at the heart of all journalism.
• 38:34
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, you know, it should be at least.
• 38:36
  SPEAKER_01: And right, yeah.
• 38:38
  SPEAKER_01: So that's that's awesome.
• 38:40
  SPEAKER_01: I love that.
• 38:40
  SPEAKER_01: And I and I really like that um you are you know kind of expanded on this conversation because I'm the same way, and I think that natural beauty definitely has a place in the market, and I we see that obviously, right?
• 38:52
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, it's it's booming right now, but I am not gonna lie, I love you know medical grade skincare.
• 38:58
  SPEAKER_01: Why?
• 38:59
  SPEAKER_01: Because I see results, you know what I mean?
• 39:00
  SPEAKER_02: I see results, ex exactly.
• 39:02
  SPEAKER_02: I don't, I think you can see results from natural or clean products, I should say, but um I think you know, I like I don't know if you'll get the same results necessarily on a wrinkle, if that's your concern, um, without using like a retinoid right, or getting Botox.
• 39:22
  SPEAKER_01: Sometimes you like to get Botox because you can't get rid of it.
• 39:25
  SPEAKER_01: Like there's uh yeah, I agree with you.
• 39:27
  SPEAKER_01: And you know, I want to actually shift focus a little bit because skincare, um, you know, obviously there's so many topics we can talk about in skincare.
• 39:34
  SPEAKER_01: But one one thing I'm really interested in is the differentiation between skin health and skincare.
• 39:40
  SPEAKER_01: Because I personally I I my belief is that skincare leans more towards the self-care aspect versus skin health, which is obviously in my mind leaning more towards dermatology and plastic surgery, and you know what I mean?
• 39:51
  SPEAKER_01: Like those like really grounded um, you know, sub-disciplines in medicine.
• 39:56
  SPEAKER_01: So, what do you think about that?
• 39:58
  SPEAKER_01: Do you think that there should be a distinction or um really how do you how do you see it?
• 40:03
  SPEAKER_02: Um yeah, I think there is a distinction.
• 40:05
  SPEAKER_02: I think I for me, I think skin health is kind of the whole big picture.
• 40:11
  SPEAKER_02: Um because a lot I won't say a lot, like for example, like acne, I'm using that because that's a common condition.
• 40:18
  SPEAKER_02: It's also something I struggle with.
• 40:21
  SPEAKER_02: Um, depending on what type of acne you have, um, some of the causes could like are internal and that has to do with your skin health and just overall health.
• 40:32
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and I see skincare as maintenance in terms of products and even getting something like filler.
• 40:40
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and yeah, there is definitely the self-care aspect for it too, because you know, I will say when I'm doing my skincare routine, it's the few moments I make sure to take and have for myself every day where I'm not on my phone, I'm just in my bathroom, and you know, it's almost meditative.
• 41:00
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it is.
• 41:00
  SPEAKER_01: And I and I I completely agree with you on the same way.
• 41:03
  SPEAKER_01: It's like rubbing something on your face, surprisingly, has a very calming effect.
• 41:08
  SPEAKER_01: And I wish some a psychologist out there would do a study on this because I'm convinced that some sort of hormonal changes happen in your brain.
• 41:16
  SPEAKER_01: You know what I mean?
• 41:16
  SPEAKER_01: Some neurotransmitters are regulated when you're doing um self-care rituals.
• 41:21
  SPEAKER_01: And I, you know, I don't know.
• 41:22
  SPEAKER_01: I just think that there shouldn't be a um this or that.
• 41:26
  SPEAKER_01: I think we just need to, like you said, work on the wording and the terminology because you're right, like, you know, you can't say something is completely clean or it's non-toxic, or why are we even focusing on that?
• 41:38
  SPEAKER_01: That's kind of where I'm getting at with this.
• 41:40
  SPEAKER_01: It's like almost as if the the focus of the industry is in the wrong place.
• 41:44
  SPEAKER_01: It should really be in the taking care of yourself and your well-being and you know what I mean, like all the things that go into that.
• 41:51
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, for sure.
• 41:52
  SPEAKER_02: Um, definitely.
• 41:53
  SPEAKER_02: I think again, skin health and skincare are very connected um internally and externally.
• 41:59
  SPEAKER_02: So definitely.
• 42:00
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and also they're just it's great that things are being left out of products, but there should also be a focus.
• 42:06
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, there is, but the focus on what's in the products.
• 42:09
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
• 42:10
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I also want to I want to ask you about your skincare routine because I have to know um what you're loving right now, um, what you use, and you know, just the whole process.
• 42:21
  SPEAKER_02: Sure.
• 42:21
  SPEAKER_02: So I again going back to clean and um standard brands, I use a mix of both.
• 42:28
  SPEAKER_02: Um and yeah, I like to keep things simple.
• 42:31
  SPEAKER_02: I don't do like a 12-step routine.
• 42:34
  SPEAKER_02: Um I'm more about, you know, using fewer and effective products.
• 42:39
  SPEAKER_02: I also find for me, my skin doesn't need 12 products.
• 42:43
  SPEAKER_02: And I've always experienced more irritation or problems if I use too many products.
• 42:49
  SPEAKER_02: So what I use changes all the time because I am constantly trying new things.
• 42:58
  SPEAKER_02: But um, yeah, so typically my routine in the morning and night is a little bit different.
• 43:03
  SPEAKER_02: So I'll tell you the morning first and then I'll tell you at night.
• 43:08
  SPEAKER_02: So in the morning, I use a cleanser.
• 43:10
  SPEAKER_02: I typically use more of a cream cleanser that's hydrating.
• 43:14
  SPEAKER_02: I have combination skin um that I'm prone to adult acne, hormonal acne.
• 43:19
  SPEAKER_02: So um, but I do still need that hydration, especially during the winter.
• 43:23
  SPEAKER_02: So I really like the Holly Frog Taj Mu um Milky Wash.
• 43:28
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, I have to try that brand.
• 43:30
  SPEAKER_01: I've been needing too.
• 43:31
  SPEAKER_02: It's really cool.
• 43:32
  SPEAKER_02: You should actually have the founder Emmy Um Parr on.
• 43:36
  SPEAKER_02: She's really she her background's in beauty PR and she has done beauty PR for a lot of the like pioneering clean brands.
• 43:44
  SPEAKER_02: So I think yeah, and then she started this brand and it's cleanser focused, but they have a few products that aren't um strictly cleansers anymore.
• 43:54
  SPEAKER_02: I think there's a serum, but it's it's really like the formulas are really great, and I've Really truly enjoyed everything that I've tried from that brand so far.
• 44:04
  SPEAKER_02: So I use that.
• 44:06
  SPEAKER_02: And then I use a vitamin C serum.
• 44:09
  SPEAKER_02: Um, right now I am trying this new one, it's from Supergoop.
• 44:13
  SPEAKER_02: Um, I think it comes out at the end of December.
• 44:16
  SPEAKER_02: So it's actually it's really cool.
• 44:18
  SPEAKER_02: It's the first vitamin C serum to combine an SPF.
• 44:23
  SPEAKER_02: So it's wow.
• 44:24
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 44:24
  SPEAKER_02: So it's actually, it's kind of like a hybrid product.
• 44:28
  SPEAKER_02: So it's actually an SPF.
• 44:30
  SPEAKER_02: It's a chemical SPF.
• 44:31
  SPEAKER_02: It doesn't have oxybenzone in it, um, but it's vitamin C and yeah, the SPF.
• 44:37
  SPEAKER_02: So basically, like the theory I would love to learn about that.
• 44:40
  SPEAKER_02: Holy crap.
• 44:41
  SPEAKER_02: It's really cool.
• 44:42
  SPEAKER_02: They, it's just coming out now, and I've been trying it for the past um month, but it's it's it's really cool.
• 44:49
  SPEAKER_02: It has almost a like more of like a sunscreen texture, but it's lightweight.
• 44:54
  SPEAKER_02: Um, but the whole theory behind it is that, you know, people are really hyperpigmentation is like a huge focus for a lot of people in their skincare routines.
• 45:05
  SPEAKER_02: But then using a vitamin C serum for your dark spots is pointless if you're not using a sunscreen.
• 45:14
  SPEAKER_02: So it's kind of combining those two steps to get people who don't wear sunscreen to wear it without having to layer another product.
• 45:23
  SPEAKER_02: So just using that is adequate sunscreen coverage, but you can also layer other sunscreens on top of it, which is so is it like a serum?
• 45:32
  SPEAKER_01: It's a serum then, yeah?
• 45:33
  SPEAKER_02: Like it's like it's like it's it's has a really interesting texture because when you it's in a pump, so when you pump it out, it looks kind of like a gel like serum.
• 45:42
  SPEAKER_02: But when you massage it on, it gets kind of that lotion y feel of a sunscreen.
• 45:49
  SPEAKER_01: Supergoop has the best SPFs too.
• 45:51
  SPEAKER_01: Like I love their products, yeah.
• 45:54
  SPEAKER_01: Like that's so cool.
• 45:55
  SPEAKER_01: I want to actually learn more about it.
• 45:56
  SPEAKER_01: And if anyone's listening out there on the Supergoop team, please go on my show.
• 46:00
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, they they're really they have really great sunscreens.
• 46:03
  SPEAKER_02: Like other before before I was started to use this one, I use their matte screen um every morning, and that's a mineral sunscreen, and it's really great too.
• 46:12
  SPEAKER_02: Um, yeah, I love supergoop stuff, but yeah, so then after that, I use a moisturizer right now.
• 46:18
  SPEAKER_02: I'm really liking Beautystat's moisturizer, it's amazing.
• 46:21
  SPEAKER_02: Um, I don't know if you've heard that brand.
• 46:23
  SPEAKER_01: No, you're totally enabling me, by the way.
• 46:25
  SPEAKER_02: Like I need to buy that that brand is really that brand, speaking of like clinical formulas.
• 46:32
  SPEAKER_02: So Beautystat was founded by um a cosmetic chemist, and his name is Rob Robinson.
• 46:38
  SPEAKER_02: And so all of his formulas are just very science-based, like tried and true ingredients.
• 46:43
  SPEAKER_02: This, like the moisturizer is amazing.
• 46:45
  SPEAKER_02: It's a gel moisturizer, so it absorbs really fast, but it doesn't.
• 46:49
  SPEAKER_02: I find like with my skin, gel moisturizers can sometimes they'll give me like that instant hydration, but after a while, it's a little dry again.
• 46:58
  SPEAKER_02: This does not do that, like you look like dewy and just soft all day.
• 47:03
  SPEAKER_02: It's amazing.
• 47:04
  SPEAKER_02: Um I need it.
• 47:05
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, no, it has it has HA in it, and then it also has um, I think it has peptides or probiotics.
• 47:14
  SPEAKER_02: Don't quote me on that because I can't remember right now, but it's amazing.
• 47:17
  SPEAKER_02: Um, so I've really been enjoying that.
• 47:19
  SPEAKER_02: It's like my new favorite moisturizer, and I don't get impressed by moisturizers very often.
• 47:24
  SPEAKER_01: Um, that says a lot, that's awesome.
• 47:27
  SPEAKER_01: I'm no, I'm the same way.
• 47:28
  SPEAKER_01: Moisturizers are a little tricky.
• 47:30
  SPEAKER_01: Like I feel like they're all the same, or like one stands out way too much and it's in the wrong way.
• 47:36
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, like so, yeah, basically just with any kind of leave-on products, I don't use fragrance.
• 47:42
  SPEAKER_02: I like it just irritates my skin.
• 47:44
  SPEAKER_02: It's it's not for me.
• 47:45
  SPEAKER_02: I get the sensorial experience of wanting to have fragrance in a product, but um, I think it leads to more reactions and just yeah, I don't need that in my life.
• 47:57
  SPEAKER_02: So um any leave-on product, I typically don't use fragrance, something with fragrance in it.
• 48:04
  SPEAKER_02: But for like masks and like wash off things, like a cleanser, for the most part, I'm for fragrance depending on where the fragrance is coming from.
• 48:14
  SPEAKER_01: Um Right.
• 48:14
  SPEAKER_01: No, and also I just want to say like not all fragrance is bad.
• 48:17
  SPEAKER_01: I'm not saying that you're saying that, but I'm like for everyone listening, like fragrance doesn't mean that you're gonna break out.
• 48:22
  SPEAKER_01: Let's just be clear on that because people I think automatically it's like going back to your point about you cannot demonize, you know, right, right.
• 48:30
  SPEAKER_02: Like, yeah.
• 48:31
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, like I have sensitive skin.
• 48:32
  SPEAKER_02: I'm also prone to breakout.
• 48:34
  SPEAKER_02: So for me, fragrance is just it's not a good time.
• 48:38
  SPEAKER_02: Like right, and that makes sense.
• 48:40
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 48:40
  SPEAKER_02: Um, yeah.
• 48:41
  SPEAKER_02: So at night, um, if I'm wearing eye makeup, which has been few and far between um since COVID started, um, I really like the Glossier um Milky Oil makeup remover.
• 48:52
  SPEAKER_02: Um, it's really good.
• 48:53
  SPEAKER_02: It gets like mascara off and eyeliner.
• 48:56
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and then I follow that with a cleansing balm.
• 48:59
  SPEAKER_02: I always double cleanse at night.
• 49:01
  SPEAKER_02: And if I'm not wearing makeup, I or like if I'm just wearing like sunscreen or you know, some tinted moisturizer, I don't really use the eye makeup remover.
• 49:09
  SPEAKER_02: That's just if I'm wearing mascara.
• 49:11
  SPEAKER_02: But yeah, so um I really like the drunk elephant um cleansing balm because it's more of like a butter and it really smells like that.
• 49:18
  SPEAKER_01: It's really good.
• 49:19
  SPEAKER_01: It's really good.
• 49:20
  SPEAKER_01: I remember Drunk Elephant got so much grief.
• 49:23
  SPEAKER_01: You know what I mean?
• 49:24
  SPEAKER_01: Like last and I was just like, dude, they have an awesome line.
• 49:26
  SPEAKER_01: Like it's not like I don't, I don't know.
• 49:29
  SPEAKER_01: I'm that's such a tangent, but you know what I'm saying?
• 49:30
  SPEAKER_01: Like they got so much grief.
• 49:32
  SPEAKER_01: But yeah, I love that balm too.
• 49:33
  SPEAKER_02: So yeah, it's it's one of my it's one of my favorite bombs that I've tried.
• 49:38
  SPEAKER_02: So um I use that and then I use the holy frog one after that again, or another cream cleanser that I'm trying, but the holy frog one is like my favorite one.
• 49:48
  SPEAKER_02: So um then I use uh ordinary niacinamide and zinc serum.
• 49:53
  SPEAKER_02: Um that is like yeah, it's I've been using it for a year and a half.
• 49:57
  SPEAKER_02: It's one of my favorite skincare products.
• 49:59
  SPEAKER_02: I will always use it.
• 50:00
  SPEAKER_02: I buy it like it's ten dollars for like 60 milliliters, like yeah.
• 50:07
  SPEAKER_02: So I find that has really helped with my acne, both hormonal and maskney.
• 50:15
  SPEAKER_03: Um, like so.
• 50:17
  SPEAKER_02: I really, I really like it.
• 50:19
  SPEAKER_02: Um, it's worked for me, it works well with everything else in my routine.
• 50:24
  SPEAKER_02: Um, it's one of my favorite products from the ordinary.
• 50:27
  SPEAKER_02: Um, yeah.
• 50:28
  SPEAKER_02: So then after that, I use um Shawnee Jarden's texture reform serum or her retinol reform serum.
• 50:34
  SPEAKER_02: I kind of toggle between the two.
• 50:37
  SPEAKER_02: Um, the texture reform, it can it contains a more mild um retinoid.
• 50:43
  SPEAKER_02: So I it was the first one that I used that did not give me um retinoid side effects like dryness, flaking.
• 50:51
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and I saw a huge improvement in my hyperpigmentation, which is my main skin concern other than hormonal acne.
• 50:59
  SPEAKER_02: So really like that serum or the retinol one, which is a bit stronger.
• 51:04
  SPEAKER_02: Um, both have worked really well for me.
• 51:07
  SPEAKER_02: And then I use the Beauty Stat um moisturizer again, which I'm really enjoying.
• 51:14
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and then I also have been using this youth to the people eye cream.
• 51:19
  SPEAKER_01: Oh my gosh, I love uh youth to the people.
• 51:23
  SPEAKER_01: I really like them too.
• 51:25
  SPEAKER_01: It's one of my top uh they're actually coming onto the show.
• 51:28
  SPEAKER_01: I'm super excited.
• 51:29
  SPEAKER_01: They're really cool.
• 51:29
  SPEAKER_02: You'll like them.
• 51:30
  SPEAKER_02: I've I've met with them a few times.
• 51:32
  SPEAKER_02: They're yeah, the dream eye cream.
• 51:35
  SPEAKER_02: I just looked up the name.
• 51:36
  SPEAKER_02: So I don't always love eye cream because I find like a lot of them are scams.
• 51:43
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, yeah.
• 51:44
  SPEAKER_02: Um, like I think, I think like, you know, I I just that's all I'm gonna say.
• 51:50
  SPEAKER_02: I'm not saying all of them.
• 51:51
  SPEAKER_02: I'm not saying all of them.
• 51:52
  SPEAKER_01: No, I mean, listen, honestly, I'll say it.
• 51:54
  SPEAKER_01: I'll say it because I honestly want to say that it is true.
• 51:57
  SPEAKER_01: They are.
• 51:58
  SPEAKER_01: And um, you know, as I I can honestly tell you, I was talking to when I was talking to Faith Cummings, we were talking about uh a little bit about um, you know, just this idea of like brown skin health versus like skin health, you know what I mean?
• 52:11
  SPEAKER_01: And I think a lot of the eye creams especially love banking on this idea that we're great for women of color with under-eyed circles.
• 52:18
  SPEAKER_01: And it's like, dude, we all have under-eyed circles.
• 52:21
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and also, like, I mean, if it works, it works, right?
• 52:24
  SPEAKER_01: It's like we can't keep monetizing on these like labels.
• 52:27
  SPEAKER_01: But yeah, I I hear you.
• 52:28
  SPEAKER_01: Eye creams, definitely 90% scams.
• 52:31
  SPEAKER_02: Like they don't yeah, or it's it's just, or if they like a lot of them, they'll provide like instant effects, but those aren't necessarily like long-term effects.
• 52:40
  SPEAKER_02: There's like ingredients in them, like light reflecting particles that will like make your under-eye circles look lighter for a day.
• 52:46
  SPEAKER_03: Like diamonds.
• 52:48
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 52:48
  SPEAKER_02: Um, you know, or there's like ingredients that will, you know, calm puffiness a little bit, but that's not like a long-term.
• 52:56
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, like caffeine.
• 52:57
  SPEAKER_01: I know caffeine's like huge in my cream.
• 52:59
  SPEAKER_02: But I like this one because it's a thick cream, like most eye creams are, but it's um, it doesn't leave like a greasy film and it's really hydrating.
• 53:10
  SPEAKER_02: Um, I haven't seen like any results in terms of firmness because I don't have crow's feet yet.
• 53:18
  SPEAKER_02: Um, so I can't do that.
• 53:19
  SPEAKER_02: But um, I do really like how hydrating it is.
• 53:23
  SPEAKER_02: My eyes get really dry, um, especially in the winter.
• 53:27
  SPEAKER_02: So I I really like um this eye cream and I like that brand in general.
• 53:31
  SPEAKER_02: I think their formulas are really smart and they're beautiful, aren't they?
• 53:36
  SPEAKER_02: I think they're a good example of a brand that uses a lot of plant-based ingredients, but there's research behind them.
• 53:43
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, yes, and they they're effective.
• 53:46
  SPEAKER_01: Like they their products.
• 53:47
  SPEAKER_01: I remember when I first started using their kale cleanser.
• 53:50
  SPEAKER_01: Oh my gosh, like I fell in love.
• 53:52
  SPEAKER_01: Like, I've been through I don't know how many bottles of that like product.
• 53:56
  SPEAKER_01: Like, I just really love use the people and their like overnight masks and everything is just so beautifully crafted.
• 54:02
  SPEAKER_01: So I completely agree with you.
• 54:03
  SPEAKER_01: They're definitely doing it right, and they're not doing the whole what we talked about, which is like, you know what I mean?
• 54:08
  SPEAKER_01: Like everywhere, hey, we're clean, we're you know, we're not everything.
• 54:13
  SPEAKER_01: So yeah, I love that.
• 54:14
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, they're really they're a really cool, cool brands.
• 54:17
  SPEAKER_02: I went to their headquarters for an event in LA and it's just it's really cool.
• 54:22
  SPEAKER_02: They do like a lot of things in-house.
• 54:24
  SPEAKER_02: Um, it's it's it's they're really cool, but yeah, so that's my typical routine um on a daily basis.
• 54:30
  SPEAKER_02: Keep it simple but effective um with what works for me.
• 54:34
  SPEAKER_02: But yeah, so that's my approach.
• 54:37
  SPEAKER_02: I I mean I do masks and stuff once in a while, um, like maybe once a week, but I'm not doing a 12-step routine every night.
• 54:45
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and I think none of us are anymore.
• 54:47
  SPEAKER_01: I know that like um I want to I actually have one question for you about um these like trends like K-beauty or J Beauty.
• 54:56
  SPEAKER_01: I think that they're definitely things, but like you know how um people only buy K beauty or they'll only buy what do you like think about that?
• 55:04
  SPEAKER_01: Because I think it's kind of like a disservice to yourself if you only buy one category.
• 55:09
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I mean, I think, you know, it's again based on preference.
• 55:13
  SPEAKER_02: Um, but yeah, I think that K beauty, there's a lot of innovation um there.
• 55:19
  SPEAKER_02: So I can see why people, you know, are really, really into just using those products.
• 55:24
  SPEAKER_02: But um, yeah, I mean, I think with anything, it's all about balance or you know, just keeping an open mind.
• 55:32
  SPEAKER_02: Um, but if you if you love K beauty, then go for it.
• 55:36
  SPEAKER_01: Right, right.
• 55:37
  SPEAKER_01: Agreed, agreed.
• 55:38
  SPEAKER_01: I just, you know, it's the hype again that I try to like.
• 55:42
  SPEAKER_01: I I hate things that are overhyped, and I don't think K beauty is for everyone listening.
• 55:45
  SPEAKER_01: I love K Beauty, there's a lot of great products, and um, you know, that's definitely there.
• 55:49
  SPEAKER_01: But yeah, I think the hype is what I really get irritated by because it once again causes this compartmentalization in the skincare industry.
• 55:57
  SPEAKER_01: And I don't know, I just don't like that.
• 55:59
  SPEAKER_01: You know what I mean?
• 55:59
  SPEAKER_01: I I think we all need to just blend together and be like, hey, everything's out here, pick what you like.
• 56:05
  SPEAKER_01: No, no, for sure.
• 56:07
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, well, Erin, thank you so much.
• 56:09
  SPEAKER_01: This is amazing.
• 56:09
  SPEAKER_01: And I honestly I could talk to you for hours.
• 56:11
  SPEAKER_01: So thank you.
• 56:12
  SPEAKER_01: It was so good talking with you.
• 56:13
  SPEAKER_01: It was so fun.
• 56:15
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 56:15
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so everyone listening out there, leave any comments or questions you have for Erin in the uh art for this episode, and I will definitely pass them along to her.
• 56:23
  SPEAKER_01: And um, if you guys could rate us on Spotify, iTunes, or Google Podcasts, that really helps us a lot.
• 56:28
  SPEAKER_01: And it your feedback means a lot to us.
• 56:30
  SPEAKER_01: So um feel free to write whatever you you want to write.
• 56:34
  SPEAKER_01: If you hate my voice, write it.
• 56:35
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I don't care, but I need the feedback.
• 56:37
  SPEAKER_01: So um thank you so much for listening, and I'll be back next time with another great episode.
• 56:49
  SPEAKER_01: Hey guys, so I hope you love that episode.
• 56:52
  SPEAKER_01: Please make sure to hit subscribe if you're tuning in to us on any podcast platform.
• 56:57
  SPEAKER_01: We are available on so many different platforms.
• 56:59
  SPEAKER_01: So wherever it is that you're tuning in, just go hit subscribe.
• 57:02
  SPEAKER_01: You will be immediately notified when we publish new episodes.
• 57:06
  SPEAKER_01: This way, you're able to tune in to amazing insights from experts, brand founders, industry leaders, authors, all the wonderful people that we host.
• 57:14
  SPEAKER_01: And that's very important for me because I love to hear from you guys and really understand what you love and what you want to hear more of.
• 57:21
  SPEAKER_01: Also, make sure to give us a follow on all of our social media outlets.
• 57:24
  SPEAKER_01: We're available on Instagram, TikTok, X, you name it, we're there.
• 57:29
  SPEAKER_01: We also have a blog on Medium.
• 57:31
  SPEAKER_01: So if you're a reader and you love Medium blogs, check us out on Medium.
• 57:35
  SPEAKER_01: We publish some really great articles on there that do deeper dives than just what's available on the podcast, and it's really a great place for all of you science geeks out there that want to learn a little bit more.
• 57:45
  SPEAKER_01: We go above and beyond with our research and making sure we're bringing you information that you usually probably won't hear about in other outlets.
• 57:51
  SPEAKER_01: So check us out, leave us a comment, leave us a review, and we'll be back next time with another episode.
• 57:56
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you.