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BONUS CROSSPOST: Coming of Age Anthology · WoT Spoilers

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  Speaker 1: You are listening to Autistic Stuff for Autistic People, a
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  Speaker 1: podcast from the Autistic Peer Support Coaching Collective and Fox
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  Speaker 1: and Raven Media. Hello and welcome to Autistic Stuff for
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  Speaker 1: Autistic People, or potentially Used to Sew, or potentially What Spoilers,
• 0:23
  Speaker 1: or potentially Podcast at Donut. This is a bonus episode
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  Speaker 1: for those other three podcasts. This is going to be
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  Speaker 1: a main episode on Autistic Stuff for Autistic People. But hi, everyone. Welcome.
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  Speaker 1: You know me. I do all the podcasts and I
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  Speaker 1: have some special content for everyone today. I was recently
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  Speaker 1: in connection with the creation of an anthology about the
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  Speaker 1: autistic coming of age experience. And it was a very
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  Speaker 1: cool process to write my essay and get into that book.
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  Speaker 1: And today I have the curator, editor of said book
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  Speaker 1: here with me. Yes, I have Erica Citino here with
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  Speaker 1: me today to talk about the Coming of Age anthology
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  Speaker 1: book and all of the essays and process associated with that.
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  Speaker 1: So thank you so much, Erica, for coming to all
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  Speaker 1: four of these podcasts at once.
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  Speaker 2: It's such a pleasure. Thank you so much for having me.
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  Speaker 2: I really appreciate it. And thanks for being part of
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  Speaker 2: the anthology. Loved having your voice and your input. It
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  Speaker 2: was terrific.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah. It was a fun process to write. I've
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  Speaker 1: told my story many times, but usually not in essay form.
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  Speaker 1: So that was a fun challenge. So tell me about
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  Speaker 1: why you wanted to make this book. What was kind
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  Speaker 1: of the overarching, inciting thesis for this?
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  Speaker 2: I think that it was that I have ever since
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  Speaker 2: I received my own diagnoses or whether we're self-identifying or
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  Speaker 2: getting traditional diagnoses, however we come to understand our neurodivergence
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  Speaker 2: at a certain age, I felt like there was this
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  Speaker 2: lost generation of folks who who were floating around like me.
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  Speaker 2: I was 41 when I received my diagnosis. So it
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  Speaker 2: felt like a lifetime of unraveling and deconstructing and starting
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  Speaker 2: to understand myself from a completely different perspective and through
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  Speaker 2: a totally different lens. And I just felt like we're
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  Speaker 2: the people who have been perhaps screaming the loudest with
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  Speaker 2: no language. For the longest amount of time. So, you know,
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  Speaker 2: I don't believe that neurodivergence really the term neurodivergence does
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  Speaker 2: us a whole lot of justice, but it's the framework
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  Speaker 2: in which we have to communicate this right now as
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  Speaker 2: it stands. I usually use the term neuroqueer. Some folks
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  Speaker 2: don't love it. But that's really how I identify. And
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  Speaker 2: I just felt like there had to be other people
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  Speaker 2: out there. Of course, there did, who were having similar
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  Speaker 2: experiences to mine or completely different experiences to mine, but
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  Speaker 2: that were also valid and also needed to be supported,
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  Speaker 2: but also that I wanted to to hear and I
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  Speaker 2: wanted to hold space for and I wanted to bring
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  Speaker 2: a certain amount of, you know, light to these folks who,
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  Speaker 2: like I said, have for so long, not only been
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  Speaker 2: misunderstood by others, but haven't necessarily had the privilege of
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  Speaker 2: understanding themselves. Yeah, totally.
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  Speaker 1: When you're out there winging it, raw dogging adulthood and
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  Speaker 1: figuring it out, just kind of ad hoc. It really
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  Speaker 1: helps to hear the stories of other people, even when
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  Speaker 1: they're not really your story at all. There are bits
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  Speaker 1: of connection and bits of illumination. And the more stories
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  Speaker 1: you can absorb, the more your own story makes sense.
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  Speaker 1: For sure, yeah, autistic community is so key to that experience.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah. And it's so interesting, isn't it? Because I've spoken
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  Speaker 2: to so many people throughout this process and everybody's like, well,
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  Speaker 2: my partner's turned out to be ADHD and now my
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  Speaker 2: mother is identifying as autistic. Certainly mine is after I
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  Speaker 2: received my diagnoses and my son received his. And I'm like,
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  Speaker 2: you know, like finds like somehow or another. Thank goodness.
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  Speaker 2: we have found some people because it's true. It can
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  Speaker 2: be so very isolating and alienating and having that sense
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  Speaker 2: of peer relationship is really profound. Yeah.
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  Speaker 1: Birds of a feather flock together. Even when we don't
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  Speaker 1: know what we're doing, it's like that one person goes
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  Speaker 1: and then the whole friendship group like starts discovering that
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  Speaker 1: there are also variations on queer people. And having various
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  Speaker 1: mental things. And oh, also, did you know hypermobility is
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  Speaker 1: a thing? And now half the group realizes they have hypermobility. Yeah,
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  Speaker 1: it's like we're so lost. And also we're collecting together
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  Speaker 1: even before. It's so amazing.
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  Speaker 2: And I think that's really what shows us just how
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  Speaker 2: important that is for us as just the evolution of
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  Speaker 2: a human being. Just how important that is for us
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  Speaker 2: to see ourselves, at least the tiniest bit of ourselves,
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  Speaker 2: mirrored back. Because I feel like also within the anthology
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  Speaker 2: and people's, it was really important for me that people
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  Speaker 2: were able to express their experiences in the way in
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  Speaker 2: which they chose. So whether that was an essay or
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  Speaker 2: a poem or a piece of artwork, whatever it was,
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  Speaker 2: it doesn't have to be the same experience or the
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  Speaker 2: same expression of an experience for it to be wildly
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  Speaker 2: valid and true. So that was really important to me.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, I liked that your call for submissions was like,
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  Speaker 1: if I can put it on a page, then it works.
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  Speaker 1: Like just anything that fits in a book. It can
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  Speaker 1: be any kind of multimedia visual essay poem. Of course, me,
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  Speaker 1: the way I am, of course, I had to write
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  Speaker 1: an essay. I noticed a lot of people who submitted
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  Speaker 1: things were essays, but not all of them. There were
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  Speaker 1: some really intriguing art pieces in there as.
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  Speaker 2: Well yeah a comic lane submitted a comic which was
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  Speaker 2: very cool and yeah i mean it a couple of
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  Speaker 2: maybe one or two people did an essay with a
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  Speaker 2: poem within the essay and it was really nice to
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  Speaker 2: see how the expressions varied and also there's this thread
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  Speaker 2: that we can kind of follow within that you can
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  Speaker 2: kind of keep picking up along the way Right.
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  Speaker 1: That's what's so incredible about it is none of us
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  Speaker 1: who contributed to it were coordinating on what we were
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  Speaker 1: talking about. But that's part of the magic is being like,
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  Speaker 1: and yet there are these common threats. There are these
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  Speaker 1: load bearing assumptions and aspects to it between all of us.
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  Speaker 2: And a lot of them are about a lot of
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  Speaker 2: the challenges that we face and whether we have a
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  Speaker 2: diagnosis or not. that is something where I think we
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  Speaker 2: find that relatability as well, because you're just not necessarily
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  Speaker 2: believed in so much of it. And when we are
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  Speaker 2: of the mind that autism, ADHD, OCD, all of these
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  Speaker 2: different variations of being human appear, that these are not
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  Speaker 2: things to be fixed. It sometimes goes to the other
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  Speaker 2: extreme where people are like, oh, so then it's the
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  Speaker 2: superpower thing. And I just think like that pendulum swings
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  Speaker 2: a bit too far in either direction. So it was
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  Speaker 2: also interesting to see different people's struggles, find commonality in them,
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  Speaker 2: but also see how wildly different that can be, you know,
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  Speaker 2: and have people express that through their own means.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, for sure. The spiky nature. Of the autistic experience. Because, yeah,
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  Speaker 1: it's not being believed as a fairly universal experience. But
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  Speaker 1: what are you not being believed about? And why?
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  Speaker 2: Right.
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  Speaker 1: Oh, you're capable at this. So you can do that
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  Speaker 1: is as much a thing as no, you're not that sensitive. Right.
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  Speaker 2: Exactly. Very much so.
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  Speaker 1: So tell me about who all... is in the book.
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  Speaker 1: You put out the call for submissions just really broadly.
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  Speaker 1: So who came back with that request?
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  Speaker 2: A bunch of people. A number of people I know
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  Speaker 2: are in the book and had planned to be in
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  Speaker 2: the book and then couldn't be. So that's a bummer.
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  Speaker 2: But It just is the way things go, right? So
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  Speaker 2: we'll do another one down the line, I hope.
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  Speaker 1: Sure, sure, yeah.
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  Speaker 2: But yeah, I really did. I spoke to folks that
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  Speaker 2: I know personally who had come to their understanding of
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  Speaker 2: their neurodivergence later. And also I just opened it up
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  Speaker 2: out into the social media ether. And also we were
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  Speaker 2: talking about our mutual friend, Sarah, and Sarah was kind
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  Speaker 2: enough to share quite a bit. And I received a
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  Speaker 2: lot of feedback from the folks that Sarah shared with
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  Speaker 2: as well. And as I said, a lot of people
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  Speaker 2: signed on to do it, but then life happens and
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  Speaker 2: weren't able to at that time. But I think we
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  Speaker 2: ended up with a really, I think there's 13 submissions,
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  Speaker 2: different contributors, including myself. And I just, I was really
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  Speaker 2: happy with that number. At the end of the day,
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  Speaker 2: it felt like a really complete project. Yeah. I mean,
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  Speaker 2: folks were really interested in it. You know, they felt like,
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  Speaker 2: I want to express this. I want to, you know,
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  Speaker 2: dig a little bit deeper into this. I want my
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  Speaker 2: experience to be heard to the extent that they felt comfortable.
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  Speaker 2: So it was really nice to have people respond and
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  Speaker 2: want to be involved.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah.
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  Speaker 1: Sarah's a really cool person. So yeah, I should have
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  Speaker 1: mentioned this at the top, particularly within the Wheel of
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  Speaker 1: Time world. Sarah is a mutual connection that I know
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  Speaker 1: from Wheel of Timeland. That's how we know each other.
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  Speaker 1: And we've had a lot of discussions about discovering our
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  Speaker 1: queerness and our neurodivergence. And that's a thing that I
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  Speaker 1: with them about. And so, yeah, when I got this request,
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  Speaker 1: you know, this call for submissions, first of all, I
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  Speaker 1: was flattered. And then I was like, but wait, I
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  Speaker 1: have a whole other world. And that's, you know, the
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  Speaker 1: Autistic Stuff for Autistic People world. That's the autistic support
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  Speaker 1: network world that I'm in. And I put that call
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  Speaker 1: out to my peer support coaching colleagues and some other
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  Speaker 1: people that are sort of in that circuit. And I
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  Speaker 1: No multiple names on that list from that world as well.
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  Speaker 1: And then, of course, I also got my mom, who
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  Speaker 1: people here might know from Used to Sew. to put
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  Speaker 1: a submission into this as well. So I felt quite
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  Speaker 1: proud of how many people Sarah was able to bring
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  Speaker 1: in through me, including myself.
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  Speaker 2: Yes, yes. And you really did pick it up and
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  Speaker 2: run with it after we made our connection, which I
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  Speaker 2: was so grateful for. And I love your mother's submission
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  Speaker 2: so much. I just think, oh my gosh, I'm so
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  Speaker 2: glad this is here. It's just, it's such a wonderful
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  Speaker 2: addition to the book.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah. It was cool to be like, here, have
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  Speaker 1: two generations of this story. Yeah, because my mom and
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  Speaker 1: I followed the very untraditional path of she got diagnosed
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  Speaker 1: first before I came to my self-identification, which I know
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  Speaker 1: is very unusual. Most people get diagnosed because their kids
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  Speaker 1: get diagnosed. And then they're like, wait a second, if
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  Speaker 1: that means you're autistic, then what? And I have the
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  Speaker 1: weird experience of going the other way. But yeah, I
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  Speaker 1: was really glad that we both kept our stuff together
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  Speaker 1: enough to get an essay in before the deadline.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, it was terrific. Yeah.
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  Speaker 1: So in making this book, like, were there any like,
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  Speaker 1: I mean, I'm sure there were surprises, but like, what
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  Speaker 1: were some surprises in putting this together in reading the essays? Like,
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  Speaker 1: what came up that you didn't expect?
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  Speaker 2: I didn't expect to feel so sad. I actually posted
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  Speaker 2: that on Instagram at one point after I got like
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  Speaker 2: one of the first proof copies of the book. And
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  Speaker 2: I think that when I was going through the process
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  Speaker 2: of editing and formatting and working with our copy editor,
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  Speaker 2: who was fantastic, all of the things, there's a bit
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  Speaker 2: of a separation, you know, because you're reading it and
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  Speaker 2: then you're rereading it and then you're rereading it. And
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  Speaker 2: it's all about process of turning this into something that
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  Speaker 2: you could sell to somebody. So there was almost this
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  Speaker 2: little bit of separation that happened for me. And then
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  Speaker 2: when I finally got the first proof and I sat
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  Speaker 2: down and read it cover to cover, I did have
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  Speaker 2: the experience of feeling really sad because of the challenges,
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  Speaker 2: because of this hand. I mean, we're just a handful
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  Speaker 2: of voices within the anthology, but we know that there
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  Speaker 2: are so many voices. other folks out there who have
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  Speaker 2: experienced that same not knowing, not understanding and all of
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  Speaker 2: that for so much of their lives in one way
• 13:10
  Speaker 2: or another, whether it's queerness or neuroqueer, you know, whatever
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  Speaker 2: it is, where we're not necessarily inhabiting our full self
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  Speaker 2: and it's not our fault. It left me feeling sad.
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  Speaker 2: And then After I was moving through the sadness, I
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  Speaker 2: just felt really, on behalf of everybody who submitted at least,
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  Speaker 2: I just felt really proud. I felt really proud of
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  Speaker 2: this courageous community of folks who were willing to share
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  Speaker 2: in such a really profound and, you know, vulnerable way
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  Speaker 2: so that not only their stories and their expressions could
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  Speaker 2: be told, but so that other people would benefit. And
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  Speaker 2: I was really humbled by the experience. And I was really,
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  Speaker 2: I felt really privileged to be somebody that folks felt
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  Speaker 2: safe with to submit these things and to trust me
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  Speaker 2: with these things, to edit it and all of that.
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  Speaker 2: It was a really humbling experience.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, for sure. Because it's almost like journal entries or something,
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  Speaker 1: but it's intended for public. I'm used to doing that
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  Speaker 1: in a support group where it's live, it's not recorded. Yes,
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  Speaker 1: there's an audience, but it's a very real time kind
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  Speaker 1: of experience, doing it in a book where it's like
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  Speaker 1: this could just sit on a shelf and then get
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  Speaker 1: read in another 10 years is different. It is.
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  Speaker 2: It's very different. And it's very brave. It's very brave
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  Speaker 2: to put something, you know, out there that's going to
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  Speaker 2: kind of live on beyond who we are in this
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  Speaker 2: moment and be willing to just embody that. as it is.
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  Speaker 2: And I was just, as I said, I, I really
• 15:02
  Speaker 2: felt like I had all the feelings and all the
• 15:04
  Speaker 2: feelings are tough for me because alexithymia. So I, there's
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  Speaker 2: so much happening, you know, and I really did. I
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  Speaker 2: was most surprised that I, I was most affected with
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  Speaker 2: sadness and I just felt like, you know what, that's probably,
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  Speaker 2: it was mostly about me, obviously, but it was like,
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  Speaker 2: having everybody else's experiences and expressions of it gave me
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  Speaker 2: this space to finally be like, this is hard. This
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  Speaker 2: is sad. There's so much I still carry that I
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  Speaker 2: maybe wouldn't have had to, or, you know, whatever it is.
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  Speaker 2: So I feel like there's this sense of, for, you know,
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  Speaker 2: folks who fall into this demographic, it's like, there's grief and,
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  Speaker 2: And there's also relief. And it really runs the gamut
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  Speaker 2: of what humans can experience. And it doesn't just like
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  Speaker 2: turn off because, oh, now I have a name for
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  Speaker 2: something or now I know, you know, I know what
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  Speaker 2: to call this. It's a wild ride.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, the realization that finding the label, the diagnosis, the community,
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  Speaker 1: the title, the realization that that is merely the first
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  Speaker 1: step of the rest of your lifelong journey. It doesn't
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  Speaker 1: solve things. It doesn't give you back the time that
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  Speaker 1: you lost and the frustrations you've put yourself through. It's
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  Speaker 1: just like, oh, now I know the work I have
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  Speaker 1: to do. And I know the work I could have
• 16:38
  Speaker 1: been doing. And yeah, I can see how Seeing 13
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  Speaker 1: different variations on It Took Me This Long to Realize
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  Speaker 1: what I was pushing uphill. Yeah, I could see that
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  Speaker 1: being kind of, even if there's a lot of hope
• 16:51
  Speaker 1: and joy and pride, yeah, there's a lot of loss
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  Speaker 1: and grief. there.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah. And I don't want to say it so much
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  Speaker 2: like because I want readers to enjoy the book, it's
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  Speaker 2: not going to bum you out. But no, there's a
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  Speaker 2: human perspective of there is suffering here. And these folks are,
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  Speaker 2: you know, courageously, you know, stepping up and facing everything
• 17:20
  Speaker 2: that they need to face and so honest. And so,
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  Speaker 2: you know, very much like the I'm a work in progress. And,
• 17:27
  Speaker 2: seeing themselves as valuable and worthy members of society, maybe
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  Speaker 2: for the first time. It's just, it's such a, like
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  Speaker 2: I said, a privilege to make space for that.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, for sure. I've been attempting to become an autistic
• 17:44
  Speaker 1: peer support coach for the last couple of years. I've
• 17:47
  Speaker 1: gone through a training program. I'm in a cohort of
• 17:50
  Speaker 1: people who are doing that. I've been pretty slow to
• 17:52
  Speaker 1: get that career off the ground, but that's a big
• 17:54
  Speaker 1: part of the appeal is creating space for people to
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  Speaker 1: share their stories and like see that amongst each other
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  Speaker 1: and get that. Oh, I'm not alone. Oh, this is a,
• 18:06
  Speaker 1: you know, normal big staircase. Like this is a normal
• 18:09
  Speaker 1: experience for my quote unquote abnormal feeling self. It's, it's
• 18:15
  Speaker 1: a huge part of the appeal to me there. So
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  Speaker 1: I can see where, yeah, doing this in book form
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  Speaker 1: is it's doing a lot of that same work just
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  Speaker 1: at a different speed.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, for sure. Yeah. And it's really fulfilling. I
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  Speaker 2: think you would find it very fulfilling because it's not
• 18:31
  Speaker 2: it's a it's a level playing field. And how awesome
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  Speaker 2: is that? You know, like it's not like we're going
• 18:36
  Speaker 2: into this thinking I'm reporting on something or I'm facilitating
• 18:42
  Speaker 2: a peer group or something from a place of superiority. Right.
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  Speaker 2: it's this just, I'm just here on the path. And
• 18:51
  Speaker 2: this is what helped me get here, you know? And
• 18:54
  Speaker 2: I think that that's awesome. I just think it seems
• 18:58
  Speaker 2: so simple to say that's so awesome. But it is
• 19:01
  Speaker 2: and it's not something again, that we're necessarily used to
• 19:04
  Speaker 2: because when you really, you know, parse it all out,
• 19:07
  Speaker 2: you know, traditional therapy, not so good for us. And,
• 19:12
  Speaker 2: you know, a lot of Feeling like we're doing things
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  Speaker 2: wrong within all of the systems we find ourselves in,
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  Speaker 2: even if nobody's saying that outward, you know, out loud
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  Speaker 2: to us, that feeling inside that knowing that something's not
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  Speaker 2: connected or whatever. So it just it to have that
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  Speaker 2: that real sense of, I guess, it being seen is
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  Speaker 2: a gift.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, to be seen in a way that is glad
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  Speaker 1: to be there. I don't know, people like actually want
• 19:50
  Speaker 1: to just see what's going on. Not a thing that
• 19:55
  Speaker 1: should be so profoundly altering. It should just be normal
• 19:58
  Speaker 1: and standard and regular and unremarkable.
• 20:01
  Speaker 2: And again, I think that's very unique to our demographic
• 20:05
  Speaker 2: of neurodivergent folks. Like my kid is you know, we've
• 20:09
  Speaker 2: been celebrating who and how they are from the moment
• 20:13
  Speaker 2: they've been around. So this is unique to us. You know,
• 20:19
  Speaker 2: of course, folks who are older had their other struggles
• 20:23
  Speaker 2: with being in our culture and our society as disabled people.
• 20:27
  Speaker 2: But this is very unique to us where it's like
• 20:30
  Speaker 2: staggering to us to be like, oh my gosh, this
• 20:33
  Speaker 2: is okay with you and I don't have to mask. Yeah,
• 20:36
  Speaker 2: that's what I mean by it's a very unique demographic
• 20:39
  Speaker 2: of people and and experience where you literally live a lifetime.
• 20:46
  Speaker 2: thinking one thing about yourself or feeling one way and
• 20:51
  Speaker 2: coming to understand things through a completely different lens and perspective.
• 20:57
  Speaker 2: It's like emotional whiplash. It can be really jarring. It
• 21:01
  Speaker 2: can be really liberating, but you don't just shed everything
• 21:05
  Speaker 2: that came before it. When my kid received their diagnosis
• 21:09
  Speaker 2: and we would talk about it, talk about it, in
• 21:12
  Speaker 2: a very positive light. And one day they asked their father,
• 21:16
  Speaker 2: are you autistic? And at the time, he thinks he
• 21:20
  Speaker 2: might be now. He's been peer reviewed. Definitely ADHD. But
• 21:27
  Speaker 2: at the time he said, no, I'm not. My kid said,
• 21:30
  Speaker 2: that's too bad.
• 21:33
  Speaker 1: Yes. Yes. That reframe.
• 21:38
  Speaker 2: That's what I'm talking about. Exactly. All the struggles are there.
• 21:43
  Speaker 2: All of the things that can be very difficult, it's
• 21:45
  Speaker 2: all there. But still, knowing that inherent worth and all
• 21:52
  Speaker 2: of the fabulous aspects of themselves, That's just, that feels
• 21:57
  Speaker 2: like my, that's the goal. Yeah.
• 21:59
  Speaker 1: I mean, there's going to be a lot less struggling
• 22:02
  Speaker 1: with alexithymia when that's the place that you're starting from.
• 22:05
  Speaker 1: Like alexithymia is still going to be a thing to
• 22:07
  Speaker 1: deal with, but you're setting yourself up for so much
• 22:10
  Speaker 1: less failure, so much less of a lifetime of gaslighting yourself,
• 22:13
  Speaker 1: which makes a difference. It's hard to break a 30-year
• 22:16
  Speaker 1: habit of not believing yourself or not being connected to yourself. Totally.
• 22:21
  Speaker 2: Not trusting anything you think is what your experience is
• 22:26
  Speaker 2: or the validity of your experience. And I think that
• 22:29
  Speaker 2: even as a peer coach, when you tackle that, I
• 22:32
  Speaker 2: think you'll find that the more you do it for others,
• 22:37
  Speaker 2: the more, at least I find that the more I,
• 22:40
  Speaker 2: I have done that for my child and for other
• 22:43
  Speaker 2: folks in my life, the better I have gotten at
• 22:47
  Speaker 2: doing it for myself. So the more I accommodate my
• 22:52
  Speaker 2: kid and support them and the more I advocate for
• 22:55
  Speaker 2: them and fight for them, the more I feel like
• 22:59
  Speaker 2: I can do the same thing for me now. And
• 23:03
  Speaker 2: the more I believe that I'm worthy of it, because.
• 23:07
  Speaker 2: I know, right?
• 23:09
  Speaker 1: I believe this for everyone else in the world, but
• 23:11
  Speaker 1: not for me. Well, that seems a little incongruous.
• 23:14
  Speaker 2: Exactly. And the more I'm able to show myself grace,
• 23:18
  Speaker 2: more grace, more understanding, because now at least I understand
• 23:23
  Speaker 2: the struggle and the internal stuff. And I am working
• 23:28
  Speaker 2: on it's definitely a work in progress, but it's something
• 23:30
  Speaker 2: that I'm very aware of that I am so much harder.
• 23:34
  Speaker 2: And I know this, you know, everybody says they deal
• 23:36
  Speaker 2: with this, but it's a whole other level when you
• 23:38
  Speaker 2: got the rejection sensitivity going on and all of this stuff.
• 23:42
  Speaker 2: But we are not graceful with ourselves. Right. So I
• 23:47
  Speaker 2: feel like I offer a lot of grace and a
• 23:51
  Speaker 2: lot of compassion to others. And it also has given
• 23:55
  Speaker 2: me more awareness and more permission to offer myself the same.
• 24:00
  Speaker 1: Yeah, that is so real. It's so, so true. I've
• 24:06
  Speaker 1: definitely felt like being really helpful with like, or kind
• 24:08
  Speaker 1: with my clients or my podcast co-hosts and then being
• 24:11
  Speaker 1: harsh as hell on myself and then being like, wait
• 24:14
  Speaker 1: a second, I would never say this to a client.
• 24:16
  Speaker 1: Why do I get to say it to me? Maybe
• 24:18
  Speaker 1: I shouldn't say it to me.
• 24:19
  Speaker 2: Exactly. Exactly. Yeah. And it's really hard habit to break.
• 24:24
  Speaker 1: And yeah, I feel like I got a leg up
• 24:26
  Speaker 1: because my mom discovered she was autistic when I was
• 24:28
  Speaker 1: still just like 12. So I was seeing her start
• 24:33
  Speaker 1: on that path when I was still only halfway through
• 24:36
  Speaker 1: the misery that was puberty.
• 24:38
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 24:39
  Speaker 1: So, but your, your kiddo is definitely getting even more
• 24:42
  Speaker 1: of a leg up. earlier of a start, you know?
• 24:45
  Speaker 2: I'm grateful for that. I really am. I'm really grateful
• 24:47
  Speaker 2: for it. And, and, you know, I was talking to
• 24:50
  Speaker 2: somebody about this the other day too, where I just
• 24:52
  Speaker 2: don't think that, you know, diagnoses doesn't matter. We don't
• 24:55
  Speaker 2: need to have diagnoses and self-identification is 100% valid. But
• 25:02
  Speaker 2: somebody was asking me why I chose to get diagnosed.
• 25:05
  Speaker 2: And I felt like it was more because of everything
• 25:09
  Speaker 2: we just spoke about, where it was like, I didn't
• 25:12
  Speaker 2: trust it. I didn't trust my self-identification. I didn't trust
• 25:18
  Speaker 2: myself enough to stand in it the way I stand
• 25:22
  Speaker 2: in it now, which is a shame.
• 25:24
  Speaker 1: Shame.
• 25:26
  Speaker 2: But I've come a long way. And it also gave me,
• 25:30
  Speaker 2: I felt like, this added confidence to be really open
• 25:35
  Speaker 2: and real about it all with my child. And that
• 25:40
  Speaker 2: has been, I think, a gift too.
• 25:42
  Speaker 1: Yeah, for sure. For sure. The peer-reviewed self-diagnosis is definitely
• 25:47
  Speaker 1: the way I've gone. It's definitely, I mean, it's like
• 25:51
  Speaker 1: I self-identified and then I went to a bunch of
• 25:54
  Speaker 1: peers and was like, does this make sense? Yes, yes,
• 25:58
  Speaker 1: it does. But yeah, that's not to say that a
• 26:01
  Speaker 1: formal diagnosis isn't a really useful tool as well. You know,
• 26:04
  Speaker 1: whatever it takes to be able to, yes, stand confidently
• 26:07
  Speaker 1: in advocating for your needs and bringing helpful information and
• 26:12
  Speaker 1: education to others, like whatever it takes to get to
• 26:15
  Speaker 1: that place in a way that feels good, you know,
• 26:19
  Speaker 1: that's what matters.
• 26:21
  Speaker 2: Yeah. And I was just fortunate. You know, there's obviously
• 26:24
  Speaker 2: a level of privilege and being able to even access
• 26:27
  Speaker 2: diagnosis and all of those things that we know to
• 26:31
  Speaker 2: be true and problematic. You know, so I was fortunate
• 26:35
  Speaker 2: that I was able to do that. because for whatever,
• 26:40
  Speaker 2: all of these, you know, personal reasons, it felt like
• 26:44
  Speaker 2: it was something I needed. Now I'm like, oh, I
• 26:46
  Speaker 2: couldn't care less. So you just keep going. You just
• 26:50
  Speaker 2: keep evolving.
• 27:01
  Speaker 1: What kind of feedback have you gotten on it? Have
• 27:04
  Speaker 1: you gotten much feedback on it? It's been out for
• 27:07
  Speaker 1: a handful of months, not even?
• 27:10
  Speaker 2: I don't, you know, it's funny. I think it was like,
• 27:12
  Speaker 2: it's not, it's no, it's been maybe... Oh my gosh.
• 27:17
  Speaker 2: It just dropped in September. Yeah.
• 27:19
  Speaker 1: Oh my God. Okay. That's so recent.
• 27:22
  Speaker 2: It's very recent.
• 27:24
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 27:25
  Speaker 2: And I have received really beautiful feedback on it and
• 27:31
  Speaker 2: also crickets. It's very, very interesting. I've heard from a
• 27:36
  Speaker 2: lot of folks who were a part of it that
• 27:39
  Speaker 2: they love it and they're so happy to be part
• 27:42
  Speaker 2: of it, which is like the most important thing. But
• 27:44
  Speaker 2: also lots of beautiful feedback from people who have picked
• 27:48
  Speaker 2: it up. But it's interesting because when we first started,
• 27:52
  Speaker 2: you were saying that you've kind of gone through it,
• 27:55
  Speaker 2: not sat down, read it cover to cover. And it's
• 27:58
  Speaker 2: not a book that needs to be read cover to cover,
• 28:00
  Speaker 2: which is also why I really like the format of it.
• 28:03
  Speaker 2: And I feel like people are doing that. Like they're saying, oh,
• 28:05
  Speaker 2: I picked it up today and I read one thing.
• 28:08
  Speaker 2: And then they're just kind of like sitting with it.
• 28:11
  Speaker 2: And I think that's really interesting. That's what my husband
• 28:14
  Speaker 2: has been doing. He'll just pick it up, kind of,
• 28:17
  Speaker 2: you know, has a few moments and he'll read another
• 28:20
  Speaker 2: essay or he'll, you know, look at another piece of
• 28:23
  Speaker 2: artwork and read about it. So I think people are
• 28:26
  Speaker 2: really taking their time with it. And I think it's
• 28:29
  Speaker 2: probably bringing up a lot of stuff. The good thing
• 28:32
  Speaker 2: is that all of the feedback I've gotten has been
• 28:35
  Speaker 2: very positive.
• 28:36
  Speaker 1: Yeah, that's good.
• 28:37
  Speaker 2: But I'm not, yeah, but I'm not getting, you know,
• 28:39
  Speaker 2: I haven't gotten like a feedback. I think people are just,
• 28:44
  Speaker 2: it's so much an expression of individuality as well as commonality. Yeah.
• 28:51
  Speaker 2: Which is interesting, but I also find that, folks, it's
• 28:56
  Speaker 2: such an interesting thing to try to market or promote because.
• 29:01
  Speaker 2: You know, you hear neurodivergence and that some people shut
• 29:04
  Speaker 2: down and some people, you know, open up. You hear
• 29:07
  Speaker 2: autism and ADHD and there's still so much of an
• 29:13
  Speaker 2: antiquated narrative around it. I mean, I feel like this
• 29:16
  Speaker 2: is a book that, you know, it's all about lived experience.
• 29:21
  Speaker 2: And if we're alive today, we know neurodivergent people. Sure. Right.
• 29:27
  Speaker 2: So I feel like anybody would benefit from reading the
• 29:31
  Speaker 2: book certainly is not clinical. It's not academic. It's just
• 29:38
  Speaker 2: variations of expression. But it's interesting to me, too, because
• 29:43
  Speaker 2: while to me it feels like this is such an
• 29:45
  Speaker 2: important time for people to be reading this book politically,
• 29:49
  Speaker 2: And what's going on in the U.S. and the messages
• 29:53
  Speaker 2: that we're still getting and what they're trying to do
• 29:57
  Speaker 2: with rolling back laws and protections and all of that.
• 30:02
  Speaker 2: It feels to me like it's so crucial that people
• 30:06
  Speaker 2: read and listen to the lived experiences of folks who
• 30:11
  Speaker 2: have been through this. Because, you know, we're making mistakes sometimes.
• 30:16
  Speaker 2: was just like really, really crucial mistakes. And it seems
• 30:22
  Speaker 2: like it's also just that, like, I just feel like
• 30:25
  Speaker 2: some folks are overwhelmed by it. And we're so inundated
• 30:29
  Speaker 2: with all of the things that are scary and challenging
• 30:35
  Speaker 2: and disheartening and all of, you know, so some, like,
• 30:39
  Speaker 2: it feels to me like some folks are like, oh,
• 30:41
  Speaker 2: you know, I want to read it. And there's not
• 30:43
  Speaker 2: necessarily a capacity for it. So it's it's it's and
• 30:49
  Speaker 2: that's just that's real. That's just reality.
• 30:53
  Speaker 1: Yeah. And also, yeah, it's only been, what, a month.
• 30:56
  Speaker 1: I didn't realize it was so recently out. So everyone
• 30:59
  Speaker 1: who's who wants to pick this up, please go into
• 31:01
  Speaker 1: the show notes and find the link to go buy
• 31:04
  Speaker 1: this book. Because yeah, it's not a self-help book. It's
• 31:09
  Speaker 1: not a big socio-political analysis. It's a collection of personal
• 31:15
  Speaker 1: reflections and experiences. And yeah, it's big and heavy in
• 31:19
  Speaker 1: some respects, but it's also a much smaller bite in
• 31:22
  Speaker 1: other respects. I remember when I was reading Unmasking Autism
• 31:25
  Speaker 1: by Dr. Devin Price, getting through that one chapter at
• 31:30
  Speaker 1: a time was a slog. Like it was like I
• 31:33
  Speaker 1: had to take like days between chapters as I was
• 31:36
  Speaker 1: going through that because that was very personal. But also like,
• 31:39
  Speaker 1: how does this apply to you? This anthology is just personal.
• 31:43
  Speaker 1: Like we are not talking to you, the audience. We
• 31:45
  Speaker 1: are simply telling our stories.
• 31:47
  Speaker 2: Right. Exactly. There's no like reflect or anything. You don't
• 31:51
  Speaker 2: have to reflect if you don't want to reflect. And
• 31:54
  Speaker 2: that's why I keep using the word. But it is
• 31:56
  Speaker 2: very much about expression. and giving people space to express
• 32:02
  Speaker 2: their experience. And the reason that's so important is because
• 32:07
  Speaker 2: our experiences have been invalidated for just far too long. Yeah.
• 32:11
  Speaker 1: And like you were saying, you know, the current larger
• 32:13
  Speaker 1: world discourse around us is very like, but what if
• 32:16
  Speaker 1: we made eugenics cool again? It's like, no, that's not
• 32:22
  Speaker 1: what we want. but when we think of ourselves as
• 32:25
  Speaker 1: being defective or deficient or, you know, coming from this
• 32:28
  Speaker 1: like very deficit based model of things, it's easy to say, Oh,
• 32:34
  Speaker 1: well maybe eugenics, maybe, you know, rolling back regulations, like
• 32:38
  Speaker 1: whatever it's, being able to just honestly express and share
• 32:43
  Speaker 1: our experiences with each other is a powerful antidote to that.
• 32:48
  Speaker 2: Without feeling like there's something about us that needs to
• 32:51
  Speaker 2: be fixed or cured or that we're the dregs on
• 32:55
  Speaker 2: society that, you know, they would have us believe. And
• 32:59
  Speaker 2: the larger issues that stem from those beliefs, which is like,
• 33:04
  Speaker 2: you know, productivity above everything else and all of these,
• 33:10
  Speaker 2: biases that we end up being indoctrinated with and inheriting.
• 33:16
  Speaker 2: And I feel like, you know, most people, at least
• 33:19
  Speaker 2: that I come across, don't. If we were to sit
• 33:22
  Speaker 2: down and speak about it in this way, they'd be
• 33:24
  Speaker 2: completely appalled. But it's not been pulled back enough layer
• 33:30
  Speaker 2: by layer for people to really be able to be like, well,
• 33:33
  Speaker 2: I don't believe that. But I'm still partaking in certain
• 33:37
  Speaker 2: things that are contributing to it. So I also think
• 33:42
  Speaker 2: that's a challenge for folks. I think folks who are
• 33:45
  Speaker 2: reading it maybe have to rethink certain things. And it's
• 33:49
  Speaker 2: not academic or it's not really this big sociological experiment
• 33:57
  Speaker 2: or anything like that. But if we're being conscious at
• 34:01
  Speaker 2: all and honest about how we're showing up in the
• 34:04
  Speaker 2: world and And because, as we said, everybody knows neurodivergent
• 34:09
  Speaker 2: people and everybody has their own biases around what that
• 34:13
  Speaker 2: looks like or what they think about that. They're going
• 34:17
  Speaker 2: to have to deal with and, you know, maybe be
• 34:21
  Speaker 2: brave enough to say, wow, like maybe I've been part
• 34:26
  Speaker 2: of the problem in some of this or maybe that's
• 34:29
  Speaker 2: not actually the best way for me to approach such
• 34:33
  Speaker 2: and such. And that can be more, that can be
• 34:36
  Speaker 2: part of the broader conversation. I think, don't we all
• 34:39
  Speaker 2: have to do that at a certain point? Right. Yeah.
• 34:43
  Speaker 1: Cause I mean, as you said, you know, we all
• 34:45
  Speaker 1: know a neurodivergent person and that's not because there's so
• 34:48
  Speaker 1: much autism and ADHD is because neurodivergence is big. It's
• 34:52
  Speaker 1: a big umbrella. It's bigger than you think it is.
• 34:56
  Speaker 1: And the more we can, yeah, honestly acknowledge our own experiences,
• 34:59
  Speaker 1: the more it's like, wait, are there other experiences?
• 35:01
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 35:02
  Speaker 1: That also need to be honestly acknowledged, even if they're
• 35:04
  Speaker 1: not mine directly. It's broadening.
• 35:06
  Speaker 2: And how have I been excluding folks from, you know,
• 35:11
  Speaker 2: certain things or how have I, you know, how do
• 35:14
  Speaker 2: my actions and my beliefs impact the collective, the greater whole?
• 35:21
  Speaker 2: And people don't necessarily want to do that.
• 35:24
  Speaker 1: No, it's hard. Admitting flaws and challenges in yourself is
• 35:29
  Speaker 1: one thing. And then you got to do it for
• 35:30
  Speaker 1: like your big collective. And I think that's one of
• 35:35
  Speaker 1: the reasons why the, the tendency towards the, the Aspie
• 35:39
  Speaker 1: supremacy superpower pathway is so tempting when you start to unpack,
• 35:44
  Speaker 1: Oh no, I'm not broken. I'm not flawed. You're broken.
• 35:47
  Speaker 1: Your stupid society is broken. I'm actually a vastly superior,
• 35:51
  Speaker 1: perfect being. It's, It's an equal and opposite kind of reaction.
• 35:55
  Speaker 1: And then you overcorrect and end up in a space
• 35:58
  Speaker 1: of being like, I don't have any problems. Autism isn't
• 36:01
  Speaker 1: disabling at all. And that also denies... so much of
• 36:06
  Speaker 1: like real lived experiences and other people's experiences.
• 36:10
  Speaker 2: And so much internalized ableism, right? Like so much, this
• 36:14
  Speaker 2: should not, this should not be affecting me. This should
• 36:17
  Speaker 2: not be hard for me. All of that. Absolutely. And yeah,
• 36:21
  Speaker 2: that's what I meant. Like that pendulum swing is wild,
• 36:26
  Speaker 2: you know, and I agree completely with the whole, you
• 36:29
  Speaker 2: know what it does? It just brings us back to
• 36:31
  Speaker 2: this Even if we're not saying it out loud at
• 36:34
  Speaker 2: the root of that is this idea that there's any
• 36:37
  Speaker 2: such thing as superiority, whether it's superior species or a
• 36:42
  Speaker 2: superior race or a superior way of, you know, nervous
• 36:48
  Speaker 2: system and neurobiology like it doesn't exist. Neither. None of
• 36:53
  Speaker 2: that is real, but we believe it so much.
• 36:59
  Speaker 1: Yeah, normal is a statistical term. It's not actually helpful
• 37:02
  Speaker 1: in the lived experience part of your day.
• 37:05
  Speaker 2: Right? Not even a little bit. Not even a little bit. Yeah.
• 37:10
  Speaker 1: And then also there's the reality of labels are so
• 37:13
  Speaker 1: flawed and also so necessary, right? Language is inherently a
• 37:18
  Speaker 1: flawed thing, but you were saying something earlier about that
• 37:22
  Speaker 1: was making me just think, yeah, about people, you know,
• 37:24
  Speaker 1: hearing neurodiversity and having a certain idea or hearing autism
• 37:27
  Speaker 1: and having a very certain idea. And there's so much
• 37:32
  Speaker 1: stigma around certain labels, especially when they're used as euphemisms
• 37:36
  Speaker 1: for other things. Right. And that's one of the things
• 37:39
  Speaker 1: I really enjoyed about being part of this anthology and
• 37:43
  Speaker 1: being part of the community of people that I was
• 37:45
  Speaker 1: able to bring into this. And all of that was
• 37:48
  Speaker 1: just sharing our stories in our own terms with whatever,
• 37:52
  Speaker 1: hacking through our own alexithymia plus internalized ableism we get
• 37:56
  Speaker 1: to like it's flawed but at least you start to
• 37:59
  Speaker 1: um i don't know get like a constellation for like
• 38:02
  Speaker 1: what are we really talking about when you get enough
• 38:04
  Speaker 1: people like fumbling their way towards this and you're like
• 38:07
  Speaker 1: okay what's the stigmatizing part of the label and what's
• 38:09
  Speaker 1: the helping me find solutions for my problems part of
• 38:13
  Speaker 1: the label right if i like like when i understood
• 38:15
  Speaker 1: that um dyslexia for math has a word that there
• 38:19
  Speaker 1: is a word for that. I had just been saying,
• 38:21
  Speaker 1: I have dyslexia, but for math, and everyone told me
• 38:23
  Speaker 1: to try harder. And then I learn alexithymia for math
• 38:28
  Speaker 1: is a thing, or not alexithymia, dyslexia. I can't even
• 38:31
  Speaker 1: do words right now. Yeah, it's just like, that was
• 38:33
  Speaker 1: actually a very helpful label. It was extremely helpful for
• 38:36
  Speaker 1: me to be like, this isn't just me flailing. There
• 38:39
  Speaker 1: is a pre-established canon of terminology, but then it can
• 38:43
  Speaker 1: also so easily stumble into weird euphemistic... stigmatized stuff and
• 38:48
  Speaker 1: like was that a challenge for you like putting this together.
• 38:51
  Speaker 2: I will tell you yes.
• 38:56
  Speaker 1: Yes, it was. In a word.
• 38:58
  Speaker 2: In a word, yes. And what's so interesting is I
• 39:01
  Speaker 2: do mentorship for neuroqueer families, especially folks who have neuroqueer
• 39:08
  Speaker 2: children and have understood their own neurodivergence later in life.
• 39:11
  Speaker 2: It's very interesting how things work out. But I was
• 39:17
  Speaker 2: just having a conversation with somebody and she feels very
• 39:21
  Speaker 2: averse to having a label put upon her child. And
• 39:27
  Speaker 2: I get it. I totally understand. where she's coming from
• 39:31
  Speaker 2: because of what folks have done to everything that you
• 39:38
  Speaker 2: just said. The people who, you know, have these labels
• 39:43
  Speaker 2: and how limiting that A label can wind up being,
• 39:46
  Speaker 2: you know, like when my kid was in school, you
• 39:48
  Speaker 2: checked an autism box and that was it. It was, oh, autism.
• 39:51
  Speaker 2: They checked the box. And this is what we do
• 39:53
  Speaker 2: with autism. There was no consideration for all of the
• 39:57
  Speaker 2: nuance and all of the individuality and unique needs and
• 40:02
  Speaker 2: strengths and weaknesses and all of that. It was just
• 40:05
  Speaker 2: this is what autism is. And this is what we
• 40:08
  Speaker 2: do to make you appear less autistic. So that was that, right?
• 40:14
  Speaker 2: So I understand completely where she's coming from, but I
• 40:18
  Speaker 2: did have to tell her the truth of my experience
• 40:21
  Speaker 2: was that I went through a lifetime without a label
• 40:25
  Speaker 2: and I didn't like myself. And I thought that there
• 40:29
  Speaker 2: was something inherently wrong with me and I didn't understand
• 40:32
  Speaker 2: myself and I felt angry and I felt betrayed, like
• 40:37
  Speaker 2: all of these things. And Without pressuring her, she's got
• 40:41
  Speaker 2: to decide what's best for her and her family. But
• 40:44
  Speaker 2: without pressuring her, just like you're saying, bringing them this
• 40:47
  Speaker 2: sense of framework. Like it's the framework we have. And
• 40:52
  Speaker 2: as I said, it's not good enough and it's flawed. And,
• 40:56
  Speaker 2: you know, I'm a witch. So I always say our
• 41:00
  Speaker 2: words are our wands. Right.
• 41:03
  Speaker 1: That's why they can't spell it.
• 41:05
  Speaker 2: Right. Our words have so and as a writer, I've
• 41:09
  Speaker 2: always like really loved that. Like we forget just how
• 41:14
  Speaker 2: powerful what we say can be. and the ways in
• 41:19
  Speaker 2: which we say it. And, you know, when you're growing up,
• 41:22
  Speaker 2: it's the whole sticks and stones nonsense. Like I was
• 41:26
  Speaker 2: telling my child that like words do hurt and some
• 41:29
  Speaker 2: are intended to hurt and some are not, and it's
• 41:32
  Speaker 2: an accident and you know, whatever, but some are intended
• 41:36
  Speaker 2: to hurt. And I think like you're saying, we're all
• 41:40
  Speaker 2: just kind of like trying to claw our way to
• 41:42
  Speaker 2: some of, if not complete understanding, because, you know, a
• 41:52
  Speaker 2: willingness to at least be heard. And I feel like
• 41:56
  Speaker 2: that maybe is what the framework gets us a little
• 42:01
  Speaker 2: bit more maybe these days. But certainly, I mean, it's
• 42:07
  Speaker 2: the fact that the number one reference for so many
• 42:12
  Speaker 2: folks when you say autism is still Rain Man is
• 42:17
  Speaker 2: so wildly problematic and telling, you know. So. It's hard
• 42:23
  Speaker 2: to know. It's hard to know what the right thing
• 42:26
  Speaker 2: is to do, which is why everybody has to do
• 42:29
  Speaker 2: it their way. Right. neurodiversity is all of humanity, right?
• 42:51
  Speaker 2: And then we have that which diverges from what appears
• 42:56
  Speaker 2: to be the most common or typical. There we are, right?
• 43:00
  Speaker 2: So you bring in the fact that neurodivergence isn't just
• 43:04
  Speaker 2: autism and ADHD. It's any of these variations. And people
• 43:09
  Speaker 2: are like, what? You know, it's just so hard to
• 43:12
  Speaker 2: wrap their minds around. So I wanted to use it
• 43:18
  Speaker 2: as an umbrella term because it's the only thing we
• 43:21
  Speaker 2: have right now. It's like the conversation starter. And then
• 43:27
  Speaker 2: we have so much further to go in way of
• 43:30
  Speaker 2: getting more specific and accurate and understood.
• 43:35
  Speaker 1: Right. And that's why peer support groups, anthologies, where we
• 43:40
  Speaker 1: can talk about it collectively and wrestle with it together
• 43:44
  Speaker 1: is like, That's how we move forward with finding a
• 43:47
  Speaker 1: better way of explaining ourselves or whatever. It takes collective
• 43:52
  Speaker 1: effort to get through this mess.
• 43:54
  Speaker 2: And to be willing to hear everybody's perspective, you know,
• 43:59
  Speaker 2: because I'm going to continue to express myself in the
• 44:03
  Speaker 2: way that feels like it is of the most benefit
• 44:08
  Speaker 2: right now. But that doesn't mean it's not going to change.
• 44:12
  Speaker 2: And language changes and how we feel changes and, you know,
• 44:16
  Speaker 2: all of these things. It's just this constant evolution of
• 44:21
  Speaker 2: self and also society. So it's bound to change. But
• 44:28
  Speaker 2: the problem is, is with the folks that don't want
• 44:30
  Speaker 2: it to change.
• 44:42
  Speaker 1: You mentioned earlier the term neuroqueer, and that's one of
• 44:44
  Speaker 1: my favorite ones because it's such an active verb. You know,
• 44:49
  Speaker 1: it's just like, no, we're just, if there's an edge,
• 44:51
  Speaker 1: we're pushing on it. If there's a boundary, we're questioning it.
• 44:55
  Speaker 1: If there's an assumption, we're disassembling it. It's a very
• 45:00
  Speaker 1: active term, and I really like that. It's just like,
• 45:01
  Speaker 1: I don't know exactly what I am specifically, but I
• 45:04
  Speaker 1: know that I am actively and queerly exploring what I
• 45:08
  Speaker 1: think is normal. I'm queering the thing.
• 45:11
  Speaker 2: I'm not what you tell me is normal. Right, right, right.
• 45:15
  Speaker 2: That's what I'm not. But yeah, and it's interesting, too,
• 45:19
  Speaker 2: because it's it seems to get a very mixed response,
• 45:22
  Speaker 2: that word neuroqueer. And I use them interchangeably. And I've
• 45:27
  Speaker 2: had folks say to me, you know, oh, gosh, that
• 45:30
  Speaker 2: word queer. It's so disrespectful. And I'm like, no, see.
• 45:35
  Speaker 2: You don't understand. It was only disrespectful when people were
• 45:40
  Speaker 2: treating folks the way they were treating folks and they
• 45:44
  Speaker 2: were using the word like a slur. We never said
• 45:47
  Speaker 2: it was a slur. Right. I feel like we've taken
• 45:52
  Speaker 2: back that word. And it really is, again, the power
• 45:57
  Speaker 2: of language. Like when I say I'm a witch, that
• 46:00
  Speaker 2: means I'm a raging, pushing against norms, not complying, not conforming.
• 46:08
  Speaker 2: It's the same thing as neuroqueer to me, really. But
• 46:12
  Speaker 2: it means different things to different people. So it's very
• 46:15
  Speaker 2: confusing to people, which is okay. You're allowed to be confused.
• 46:20
  Speaker 2: You're just not allowed to tell me that I can't
• 46:23
  Speaker 2: I need to say for me because it's confusing for you. Right. Yeah.
• 46:27
  Speaker 1: It's a pretty, pretty basic concept, but a lot of
• 46:29
  Speaker 1: people really struggle with it.
• 46:31
  Speaker 2: Really struggle with it. Really struggle with it. Yeah. So
• 46:35
  Speaker 2: that like brings it back to that needing space for
• 46:39
  Speaker 2: people's experiences and expressions. It's so important.
• 46:44
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Back to our, our mutual friend, Sarah, they recently
• 46:49
  Speaker 1: released a book called how it feels to be me,
• 46:51
  Speaker 1: I believe is the title.
• 46:53
  Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah.
• 46:54
  Speaker 1: I have not put in my pre-order, I don't think,
• 46:56
  Speaker 1: but I did see, I've been around it getting created
• 47:01
  Speaker 1: and promoted. And yeah, it's much like this anthology. I
• 47:04
  Speaker 1: think that one's a lot more tactile, but it's the
• 47:06
  Speaker 1: same kind of, here's an expression of the internal experience
• 47:11
  Speaker 1: of what's happening without judgment, without analysis, just here's what
• 47:15
  Speaker 1: it is. Absorb that interact with it and like see
• 47:19
  Speaker 1: how it checks out against your own.
• 47:21
  Speaker 2: And it might be similar and it might not, but
• 47:24
  Speaker 2: it doesn't cancel anything out. And one experience is not
• 47:28
  Speaker 2: better than the other or more flawed than the other.
• 47:31
  Speaker 2: And that's what it is. It's this like idea of like,
• 47:33
  Speaker 2: you know, again, I guess this idea of superiority or
• 47:36
  Speaker 2: this hierarchical way of thinking. I feel like people always
• 47:41
  Speaker 2: say people like autistic folks don't recognize hierarchy. I recognize it.
• 47:45
  Speaker 2: I also say it's, I don't, I don't respect it.
• 47:49
  Speaker 2: I don't abide by it.
• 47:49
  Speaker 1: Right, right, right.
• 47:51
  Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah. It's like, oh no, I see your hierarchy.
• 47:54
  Speaker 1: I just don't respect it.
• 47:55
  Speaker 2: I'm just not. Exactly. Choosing not to engage. Right. I'm
• 48:00
  Speaker 2: not part of that. Yeah, because that just ends up
• 48:04
  Speaker 2: being what our interesting human minds tend to do. So yeah,
• 48:11
  Speaker 2: I love that because how it feels to be me,
• 48:14
  Speaker 2: it's their expression. And who are we to say that
• 48:19
  Speaker 2: would be something else or anything right or wrong about it,
• 48:24
  Speaker 2: whatever it is. What's so interesting, too, about the anthology
• 48:29
  Speaker 2: is that I've had folks who are reading it, other
• 48:34
  Speaker 2: neurodivergent folks, who have said, I really see myself in this.
• 48:37
  Speaker 2: Then I have the ones who say, wow, I don't
• 48:40
  Speaker 2: have that experience at all. Isn't that wild? I just think,
• 48:45
  Speaker 2: there you go. Yeah. is the spectrum that everybody's always
• 48:51
  Speaker 2: talking about, which also feels like a bad word these days.
• 48:55
  Speaker 2: But yeah, that's what we're talking about. Even, you know,
• 49:00
  Speaker 2: I mean, it seems so silly and trite that we
• 49:02
  Speaker 2: even have to say it, but you've met one autistic person,
• 49:06
  Speaker 2: you've met one autistic person. Like this idea that we're
• 49:10
  Speaker 2: just going to fit into these boxes neatly. It's interesting
• 49:14
  Speaker 2: that it prevails.
• 49:15
  Speaker 1: It's always so funny to me how much autistic people
• 49:18
  Speaker 1: are classified. as having very black and white and literal
• 49:24
  Speaker 1: binary thinking. And then we're the ones out here being like,
• 49:26
  Speaker 1: but there's all this nuance though. Like there's context, there
• 49:30
  Speaker 1: are shades of gray.
• 49:33
  Speaker 2: It's so true. It's so true. It's so funny because
• 49:37
  Speaker 2: there are times obviously where that is the thing I'm like, Oh,
• 49:40
  Speaker 2: I need, like, I'll say something. My husband is, is
• 49:44
  Speaker 2: like into history always has been. So if I need
• 49:48
  Speaker 2: something clarified, he's extremely straightforward. And he's also extremely, what's
• 49:55
  Speaker 2: the word? Like, he's just fair. He's fair to both sides.
• 49:59
  Speaker 2: He's able to zoom out and see both sides very
• 50:03
  Speaker 2: easily and organically. And he has his opinions, but he
• 50:07
  Speaker 2: sees both sides of situations more readily than I'm able to.
• 50:12
  Speaker 2: So usually I go to him and I'm like, explain
• 50:14
  Speaker 2: this to me so that I can Understand both sides
• 50:18
  Speaker 2: of the equation. And I need that. And that's an accommodation.
• 50:22
  Speaker 2: And he supports me, which is appreciated. But within this
• 50:27
  Speaker 2: and within anything that has to do with this, I'm
• 50:31
  Speaker 2: with you a thousand percent. I'm like, I don't get it.
• 50:34
  Speaker 2: I don't get the that sense of like not being
• 50:37
  Speaker 2: able to recognize how multifaceted this is. just my brain
• 50:45
  Speaker 2: can't wrap around.
• 50:46
  Speaker 1: It yeah yeah it seems like the neurotypicals the neurotypical
• 50:50
  Speaker 1: society the neuro normative society larger discourse is the one
• 50:54
  Speaker 1: really hung up on black and white definitions of how
• 50:57
  Speaker 1: these things are supposed to look yeah very much yes
• 51:02
  Speaker 1: fascinating contrast there.
• 51:04
  Speaker 2: Yes indeed I mean, how much of it do we
• 51:09
  Speaker 2: think is projection? Honestly, when you really start to break
• 51:12
  Speaker 2: it down, how much of what we're taking flack for
• 51:15
  Speaker 2: is projection?
• 51:17
  Speaker 1: I'm guessing somewhere above 90%. Just my very unscientific intuitive
• 51:22
  Speaker 1: reaction is it's a lot. It's most.
• 51:25
  Speaker 2: Yes. Yeah.
• 51:26
  Speaker 1: And I mean, if only because I know that when
• 51:29
  Speaker 1: I start to unpack my own internalized issues and bullshit,
• 51:33
  Speaker 1: it tends to be like 90% projection. Like that's why
• 51:37
  Speaker 1: I'm behaving badly to the people in my life is
• 51:39
  Speaker 1: because I'm projecting my insecurities. So from personal experience, I
• 51:43
  Speaker 1: assume that's pretty par for the course for humans.
• 51:47
  Speaker 2: Absolutely. One hundred percent. Yes. We were saying before something
• 51:53
  Speaker 2: happens where it brings it up where you're able to
• 51:55
  Speaker 2: be like, oh, I'm doing this thing. It's not of benefit. Yeah.
• 52:00
  Speaker 1: And when you treat it with compassion and with curiosity
• 52:04
  Speaker 1: and with asking why in a very curious way, yeah,
• 52:09
  Speaker 1: you find much better accommodations or solutions or just things
• 52:13
  Speaker 1: that aren't a big deal. They just don't have to
• 52:17
  Speaker 1: be held onto. The number of silly house of cards,
• 52:21
  Speaker 1: walking on eggshells things I have carried around that no
• 52:24
  Speaker 1: one asked for from me. I just built it myself
• 52:28
  Speaker 1: and have made my whole personality keeping this house of
• 52:31
  Speaker 1: cards and falling. And then I ground truth that with
• 52:34
  Speaker 1: the person who it's relevant to. And they're like, what
• 52:36
  Speaker 1: are you talking about? What are you even talking about?
• 52:40
  Speaker 1: So it's, yeah, being more honest and curious about your
• 52:44
  Speaker 1: experience and about other people's experiences. It's so helpful for
• 52:49
  Speaker 1: dealing with this late diagnosed, late identified experience coming into
• 52:53
  Speaker 1: yourself as like a millennial aged person or older being like, oh,
• 52:58
  Speaker 1: I screwed up the first 30 years. What am I
• 53:00
  Speaker 1: going to do now? Like you need a lot of compassion.
• 53:04
  Speaker 1: to navigate that without, you know, doing more harm to
• 53:07
  Speaker 1: yourself and others. Yes.
• 53:09
  Speaker 2: And for the people in your life. My mother has
• 53:12
  Speaker 2: apologized to me multiple times for certain things. And there
• 53:16
  Speaker 2: are certain things that certainly could have been done better.
• 53:19
  Speaker 2: But also, we didn't nobody we didn't know. Not that
• 53:24
  Speaker 2: I feel like, you know, across the board, autonomy, agency, safety,
• 53:29
  Speaker 2: let's just give it to everybody. And everybody would feel
• 53:32
  Speaker 2: more supported and accommodated anyway, but that's a tough one
• 53:36
  Speaker 2: for parents anyway, across the board. Like that's the grace
• 53:40
  Speaker 2: I think of, like we can offer ourselves and others grace,
• 53:44
  Speaker 2: but let's not stay anywhere where it continues at this point,
• 53:48
  Speaker 2: you know, to getting really good at boundaries. Yeah. Yeah.
• 53:53
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Learning that one is not good at boundaries is
• 53:56
  Speaker 1: definitely a pretty common experience I've found amongst those of
• 54:00
  Speaker 1: us that are later identified as being like, oh, I
• 54:03
  Speaker 1: didn't even know that I could have a boundary, much
• 54:07
  Speaker 1: less where it wants to be.
• 54:09
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 54:11
  Speaker 1: Now I have to learn all of this. And this
• 54:13
  Speaker 1: is where I feel like the neurodiversity and autism conversations
• 54:17
  Speaker 1: are good for so much more than just the specifically
• 54:20
  Speaker 1: autistic community. We have a neuro-normative ableist society that's asking
• 54:27
  Speaker 1: us all to pretend to be more neurotypical than maybe
• 54:32
  Speaker 1: we are. There's a compulsive, essentially, neuro-normativity. And the more
• 54:38
  Speaker 1: that we can explore this and demonstrate grace with this
• 54:41
  Speaker 1: and practice this, like hopefully that influences people who aren't
• 54:45
  Speaker 1: autistic around us and influences institutions and rhythms that are
• 54:48
  Speaker 1: just like all human beings would do better with more compassion.
• 54:51
  Speaker 1: This is not an autistic specific accommodation.
• 54:54
  Speaker 2: Exactly. That's what I'm like, just treat everybody nicely.
• 54:58
  Speaker 1: Believe people for having their own experiences.
• 55:01
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I don't get it. No, I know. That's what
• 55:05
  Speaker 2: I mean. It seems so silly and trite sometimes when
• 55:08
  Speaker 2: you say it. Like, seriously, just treat me how you
• 55:12
  Speaker 2: would want to be treated in this situation. Treat others
• 55:15
  Speaker 2: that way. It seems so silly that we have to
• 55:18
  Speaker 2: keep saying it. And there's this idea of it that
• 55:21
  Speaker 2: gets kind of sprinkled around when you're a kid. And then...
• 55:26
  Speaker 2: all the other conditioning comes into play and we know
• 55:28
  Speaker 2: what ends up happening. And it's, it does seem so
• 55:34
  Speaker 2: simplistic that everybody would benefit from, you know, being able
• 55:41
  Speaker 2: to be who they are as long as they're not
• 55:43
  Speaker 2: harming somebody else. It just, that to me is the
• 55:46
  Speaker 2: most simplistic aspect of being in community.
• 55:51
  Speaker 1: And yet here we are, figuring it out from first
• 55:54
  Speaker 1: principles in a world that seems determined to smush it
• 55:58
  Speaker 1: out of us. So I'm really glad that you've made
• 56:01
  Speaker 1: this book and brought people together for this and are
• 56:05
  Speaker 1: contributing to this larger collective conversation of us realizing that
• 56:09
  Speaker 1: we're not alone and we're not flawed and we're not
• 56:12
  Speaker 1: some weird aberration. We're a normal, regular part of the
• 56:16
  Speaker 1: human experience. And, uh, Yeah. Do you, you said you,
• 56:20
  Speaker 1: before you thinking of doing another one of these, just
• 56:22
  Speaker 1: like volume two?
• 56:23
  Speaker 2: I think I will. Cause there were so many other folks.
• 56:27
  Speaker 2: I mean, certainly the, Oh, excuse me. The originals can
• 56:30
  Speaker 2: come back, but there were other folks who really wanted
• 56:34
  Speaker 2: to be a part of it and couldn't, or, or
• 56:36
  Speaker 2: I was even thinking about doing it just in a
• 56:38
  Speaker 2: different format where it's like an ongoing thing, perhaps virtually
• 56:43
  Speaker 2: making a space for it, like a a little journal,
• 56:47
  Speaker 2: literary journal or something so that it can continue. We
• 56:50
  Speaker 2: can just keep continuing the conversation in this way and
• 56:53
  Speaker 2: it can continue to build and Because I just think
• 56:56
  Speaker 2: the more voices included, the better. So I'm definitely going
• 57:01
  Speaker 2: to continue something with it, whether it will be, as
• 57:05
  Speaker 2: I said, another print book or volume two. I don't know.
• 57:07
  Speaker 2: We'll see. I have a book coming out next year
• 57:11
  Speaker 2: from Microcosm Publishing. That's Autistic Arcana. And it's a neurodivergent
• 57:17
  Speaker 2: approach to tarot magic.
• 57:19
  Speaker 1: Ooh, where's that pre-order link? I need it.
• 57:22
  Speaker 2: As soon as they give it to me, I will share. Yeah,
• 57:26
  Speaker 2: I'm very excited. I think that it's slated for the
• 57:30
  Speaker 2: fall of 2027 is the last I heard from the publisher.
• 57:34
  Speaker 2: So hopefully everything continues to move in that direction because
• 57:37
  Speaker 2: publishing is wild and can change at any moment. That
• 57:40
  Speaker 2: was the last update. And that was the original plan.
• 57:43
  Speaker 2: So fortunately, it hasn't shifted as of yet. So as
• 57:47
  Speaker 2: soon as I have that, so that's kind of like
• 57:49
  Speaker 2: I'm going to have to move into that. And actually,
• 57:53
  Speaker 2: I'm hopeful that maybe that book too, will bring more
• 57:56
  Speaker 2: awareness to coming of age and vice versa. So there'll
• 58:00
  Speaker 2: be a library, so to speak, that I can offer.
• 58:04
  Speaker 1: Yeah, totally. Because yeah, coming of age anthology is pretty
• 58:07
  Speaker 1: timeless content. It really is.
• 58:09
  Speaker 2: I mean, the individual might shift and change, but that
• 58:13
  Speaker 2: stuff is never gonna not be relatable, I think, to
• 58:17
  Speaker 2: a lot of folks.
• 58:19
  Speaker 1: Yeah, no, I actually know that my mom's essay is
• 58:21
  Speaker 1: about 15 years old or maybe even more. Yeah, like
• 58:25
  Speaker 1: she wrote that really early on in her journey. And
• 58:27
  Speaker 1: then she's like, yeah, no, this still checks out. I'll
• 58:29
  Speaker 1: just send that in as is. No editing required.
• 58:32
  Speaker 2: And I shouldn't say it, but it's one of my favorites.
• 58:37
  Speaker 2: I just love how she wrote it. I love the
• 58:42
  Speaker 2: like little... like this little idea of like how she's like,
• 58:47
  Speaker 2: almost talking to herself at certain points in it. Like,
• 58:51
  Speaker 2: I just I loved her expression. I loved the way
• 58:55
  Speaker 2: she expressed that experience. It just really is one of
• 59:00
  Speaker 2: my favorites. And I shouldn't I shouldn't say that.
• 59:04
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it was it was interesting reading mine and hers
• 59:07
  Speaker 1: against each other, knowing how many years a they're like,
• 59:10
  Speaker 1: she was writing that, you know, when I was 14, 15,
• 59:14
  Speaker 1: like very much in the throes of I'm not autistic,
• 59:16
  Speaker 1: I'm just weird. And then reading that against my, you know,
• 59:20
  Speaker 1: much more recent essay about like, and this is like
• 59:22
  Speaker 1: how that whole journey went. And like, I'm even referencing
• 59:25
  Speaker 1: aspects of her journey in my essay, and just like
• 59:28
  Speaker 1: looking at them side by side and going, Yeah, some
• 59:31
  Speaker 1: things change and some things stay the same. Like, it
• 59:33
  Speaker 1: really is a timeless experience of going through this process of, oh,
• 59:39
  Speaker 1: I'm not who I thought I was. Like, that is consistent.
• 59:43
  Speaker 1: So yeah, I do hope to continue funneling people into
• 59:46
  Speaker 1: discovering this book as time goes on, because I think
• 59:49
  Speaker 1: it will, yeah, always have value as long as people
• 59:52
  Speaker 1: are struggling with, wait, not everyone struggles with this in
• 59:56
  Speaker 1: the same way?
• 59:56
  Speaker 2: What? Yeah. And I mean, I just feel like every
• 1:00:01
  Speaker 2: day I'm becoming aware of or, you know, being introduced
• 1:00:07
  Speaker 2: to another person who is becoming aware of their neurodivergence
• 1:00:13
  Speaker 2: for some reason or another. I mean, my mind and
• 1:00:16
  Speaker 2: I feel like isn't that the way that's just funny
• 1:00:18
  Speaker 2: the way life works. It's like once you're once you're
• 1:00:20
  Speaker 2: aware of it. Then you see it everywhere, you know,
• 1:00:24
  Speaker 2: but people are telling me because this is the work
• 1:00:27
  Speaker 2: I'm doing and I'm doing like neurodivergent. I would like
• 1:00:30
  Speaker 2: to say neuroqueer. She doesn't want me to see, but neurodivergent,
• 1:00:33
  Speaker 2: the yoga of neurodivergence workshop. Um, and cause yoga is
• 1:00:39
  Speaker 2: so traditional and, you know, ancient yoga. Yes. What we've
• 1:00:44
  Speaker 2: done to it, not designed for neurodivergent folk. So I'm
• 1:00:48
  Speaker 2: bringing these workshops and then I have the studio owner
• 1:00:52
  Speaker 2: being like, Oh my gosh, I was just diagnosed with
• 1:00:54
  Speaker 2: ADHD a year ago. And I'm And then and then
• 1:00:57
  Speaker 2: I know this one and it just spirals. And I
• 1:01:00
  Speaker 2: just think I just keep meeting folks who are experiencing this.
• 1:01:06
  Speaker 2: And I just don't think that's going to stop anytime soon.
• 1:01:10
  Speaker 1: No, because it's the representation matters thing, right? If you're
• 1:01:14
  Speaker 1: being loud and proud and bold and full of information
• 1:01:20
  Speaker 1: and making sure that people feel invited to ask questions.
• 1:01:24
  Speaker 1: they start coming out of the woodwork. They start being like, oh,
• 1:01:27
  Speaker 1: if I could be 10% as brave or open as you,
• 1:01:31
  Speaker 1: and it's just a snowball. I've had so many people
• 1:01:35
  Speaker 1: come to me because I'm just mentioning my autism experience offhandedly,
• 1:01:39
  Speaker 1: casually in my Wheel of Time podcast. So many people
• 1:01:45
  Speaker 1: in that community, including my co-hosts have been like, wait
• 1:01:48
  Speaker 1: a second, Wait a second. It's like, yeah, all you
• 1:01:53
  Speaker 1: people who wanted to reread a 14 book fantasy epic.
• 1:01:57
  Speaker 1: Y'all are normal. Uh huh. Uh huh. But it really
• 1:02:02
  Speaker 1: is like if we are performing shame and camouflaging and hiding.
• 1:02:08
  Speaker 1: the people around us are going to imitate that. And
• 1:02:11
  Speaker 1: if we're performing openness and advocacy and a humility of
• 1:02:16
  Speaker 1: being like, I don't know what I'm doing, but I'm
• 1:02:18
  Speaker 1: trying to follow what my nervous system needs, other people
• 1:02:21
  Speaker 1: will try that. And it's a great big collective experience
• 1:02:26
  Speaker 1: we all add up to when we do that. So yeah,
• 1:02:28
  Speaker 1: if we're going to be writing books and making podcasts,
• 1:02:31
  Speaker 1: we can expect people to continue to come to us saying,
• 1:02:34
  Speaker 1: look what I discovered, look what I've done. How can
• 1:02:37
  Speaker 1: I contribute to this? It's a lovely chain reaction, I think.
• 1:02:41
  Speaker 1: It is.
• 1:02:41
  Speaker 2: It's the best part. For me, it's just the best part.
• 1:02:44
  Speaker 2: I just have, I mean, there's been a lot of self-healing,
• 1:02:48
  Speaker 2: which has been really great, for sure. Doing it as
• 1:02:52
  Speaker 2: an anthology was just very organic to me because I'm
• 1:02:56
  Speaker 2: a writer. So it just felt like I'm writing all
• 1:02:59
  Speaker 2: this down. I'm going to put it down. I have
• 1:03:01
  Speaker 2: to write it down. I ended up doing a poem. And,
• 1:03:04
  Speaker 2: you know, of course, the intro and the conclusion. But
• 1:03:07
  Speaker 2: that's how, to me, I felt like I wanted to
• 1:03:09
  Speaker 2: express how it made the most sense to me. And
• 1:03:12
  Speaker 2: I felt like I'm putting it all down. I want
• 1:03:14
  Speaker 2: to put it all down. I want to put it
• 1:03:15
  Speaker 2: all out there, if for no other reason than to
• 1:03:18
  Speaker 2: just get it off my chest. I wanted to hear
• 1:03:23
  Speaker 2: what everybody else had to put down.
• 1:03:25
  Speaker 1: Well, that's, that's really cool. I'm really glad that you
• 1:03:27
  Speaker 1: did that. And I hope that you continue to make
• 1:03:29
  Speaker 1: volumes of that and other projects that collect that sort
• 1:03:33
  Speaker 1: of experience and distribute them. Is there anything else you
• 1:03:37
  Speaker 1: want to add before we wrap up out of here?
• 1:03:40
  Speaker 2: No, I don't think so. Just buy the book, please
• 1:03:43
  Speaker 2: buy the book, share it. Yeah. So I think that
• 1:03:47
  Speaker 2: I honestly believe like that the book is, would benefit
• 1:03:51
  Speaker 2: anybody in this day and age. I always say, if
• 1:03:55
  Speaker 2: you know teachers, if you know anybody in the medical
• 1:03:59
  Speaker 2: field who works with neurodiver, these are different perspectives and
• 1:04:02
  Speaker 2: certainly not a medical model or anything that has to
• 1:04:06
  Speaker 2: do with any pathologizing. It would be good for folks
• 1:04:10
  Speaker 2: who have come up with those understandings to see it
• 1:04:12
  Speaker 2: presented in different ways. But I really think it's something
• 1:04:15
  Speaker 2: that anybody would not only benefit from, but enjoy. They're,
• 1:04:19
  Speaker 2: you know, they're really good. It's a good read. I
• 1:04:22
  Speaker 2: think they make great gifts. and share it around. It
• 1:04:25
  Speaker 2: is being printed by a print on demand company because
• 1:04:29
  Speaker 2: it's the most environmentally sound and the easiest way for
• 1:04:31
  Speaker 2: me to do it. So all of that information is
• 1:04:36
  Speaker 2: right on my website. They can just go right to
• 1:04:37
  Speaker 2: my website, which is erica-satino.com. And all of that information
• 1:04:43
  Speaker 2: is right there where they can purchase the book and
• 1:04:47
  Speaker 2: share it far and wide.
• 1:04:49
  Speaker 1: Awesome. Well, yes, the show notes to that will definitely,
• 1:04:52
  Speaker 1: the link to that will be in the show notes. Also,
• 1:04:54
  Speaker 1: I'll make sure to link Sarah's book. And then of course,
• 1:04:57
  Speaker 1: as per usual, all of my podcasts will be in
• 1:05:00
  Speaker 1: the show notes. You will be able to find this
• 1:05:01
  Speaker 1: episode across all of the different podcast feeds. Like I said,
• 1:05:05
  Speaker 1: I'm putting this mainly on autistic stuff for autistic people,
• 1:05:08
  Speaker 1: but you will be able to find this on any
• 1:05:10
  Speaker 1: of my podcast feeds. So everyone do please find my
• 1:05:14
  Speaker 1: other podcasts if you go look at Erica's website and
• 1:05:18
  Speaker 1: stay up to date on everything that she's got going on.
• 1:05:21
  Speaker 1: This has been a really good conversation. I'm really glad
• 1:05:23
  Speaker 1: that we were able to connect and I'm glad to
• 1:05:26
  Speaker 1: have had your time for this. I hope we can
• 1:05:29
  Speaker 1: stay in touch.
• 1:05:30
  Speaker 2: Okay. Let me just say though, again, thank you for
• 1:05:33
  Speaker 2: all of your help. Thank you for being a part
• 1:05:35
  Speaker 2: of it. Thank you for getting people excited about it
• 1:05:38
  Speaker 2: and sharing it with others who ended up being contributors.
• 1:05:42
  Speaker 2: It really was a huge help and I'm just so
• 1:05:45
  Speaker 2: thrilled with how it ended up. So thank you.
• 1:05:51
  Speaker 1: Thank you for listening to Autistic Stuff for Autistic People.
• 1:05:54
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• 1:05:57
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• 1:06:00
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• 1:06:30
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