Latest / The Horsehuman Connection Matrix / Rupert Isaacson part 2

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Rupert Isaacson part 2 · The Horsehuman Connection Matrix

• 0:03
  This is the Horse Human Connection, a captivating podcast where we extend into the world of equine assisted learning, horse training.
• 0:12
  and gentleness in working with these magnificent creatures.
• 0:18
  Captivating stories from the leading professionals and ordinary people alike unravel novel ideas in being with horses.
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  The Horse Human Connection is an idea, a place, and a voice.
• 0:32
  The idea is to support the quiet revolution and recognize the intelligence and true nature of the horse.
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  The place is a destination farm near the Umpqua Forest and River that slows down visitors and patrons enough to experience the shift.
• 0:49
  The Voice is this podcast.
• 0:52
  Welcome to today's episode.
• 1:03
  Welcome back to part two.
• 1:05
  I really appreciated what you were saying about not going down.
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  A rabbit hole that might that might start to look quite different and I was clarifying that the quiet revolution is not about not writing horses.
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  It's just about better treatment of horses and acknowledging some of their wonderful abilities and and who they really are.
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  And I'm not every not every barn stable writing program can have the individual relationship.
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  the way a person can when you live with them.
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  And, you know, that's a really valid point too.
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  But the dominance thing is overdone and overworked and leads to abuse in some situations.
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  That's kind of where I am with that.
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  Yeah, without a doubt it does.
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  I mean, I think though that the problem isn't really.
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  so much in the riding culture because you find good people, bad people, you know, all of that.
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  And the methodologies themselves in most disciplines are actually pretty good unless they're abused and anything can be abused.
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  I think the problem is, is in, is just in, in our culture, forget horses.
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  We are a post agricultural warrior based dominance based hierarchical society who treat each other pretty badly.
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  We've been doing this for about 10, 000 years.
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  The horse, the domestication of the horse has been alongside this because the tribes that domesticated the horses in the far east of Europe and central Asia were already, had already moved beyond hunting and gathering and were already making war on each other.
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  And so the, all of the types of horsemanship that we've inherited.
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  are either livestock work, because they're stepherders rounding up livestock, or warfare.
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  I want to take your livestock, and you want to prevent me from taking your livestock.
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  So we have to have a running fight on horseback, and then we perfect this thing called dressage, where we can work the horse in three dimensions, and it can become a, an extension of our mind and our body for livestock work and combat.
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  Now, it, then it's all going to depend of the human quality.
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  of the particular individual, human, that happens to be working with those horses.
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  And if the horse is lucky, well, they're going to be nice people, as much as you can be within warrior based societies.
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  And if not, not.
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  Now, but the horse lends itself to this very, very willingly because the work is interesting for horses.
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  So you can't make a horse do something really against his will.
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  Not, not if your life depends on it.
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  So if you, if your horse is really, just really, really doesn't want to work with you to round up those cows, you're going to starve.
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  The horse really isn't going to do it.
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  And if you go into battle on a horse that isn't a hundred percent with you, you're dead in 20 seconds.
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  So the horse has to participate.
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  Through more than simply force and brutality the horse has to actually want to be there to some degree So horses, of course are very playful and they're quite combative with each other and if you watch young stallions in particular Interact, you know, they're like adolescent Boys in a playground, they, they jump all over each other and they kick each other and they hit each other and knock each other over and they do, they do and they like it.
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  That's, there's a reason why we call it horseplay.
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  So, to some degree it was a match made in heaven.
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  And that's why these cultures, these horse cultures spread across the globe in the way that they have.
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  And I agree with you that there's now a, a new, or I think it was always there.
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  But let's say that we're putting more value on asking what's right and what's not right.
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  And we should be doing that.
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  There is one caveat I would put in there, which is that are we doing it with a heavy heart or a light heart?
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  Am I approaching the horse welfare question heavy heartedly and therefore saying there's all this abuse out there and the abuse thing is the front and foremost word in the front of my brain and in my heart?
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  Or am I saying there is a possibility for extreme joy?
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  With my life shared with this and it's joy, the front, most important word in my mind and my heart.
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  That's, that question is going to determine the quality of one's interaction with the horse.
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  So one could come in with, or even with another human, right?
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  So one could come in with very, very good intentions about horse welfare, but with a very heavy heart.
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  And that should be not that much fun for a horse to hang out with.
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  Because horses are playful, you know?
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  Or can one come in with this joy?
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  Attitude, which includes not condemning each other as humans.
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  So not coming in from a criticizing, condemning, judging.
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  Well, that way's wrong and that way's wrong and those people are wrong and that's not right and da da da da da.
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  Because the horses, I don't think it makes us much fun to hang out with.
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  When we're like that, certainly we're not much fun for each other, but I don't think we're much fun for the other mammals that we hang out with.
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  So, I think in terms of a quiet revolution, I think what I'd like to see is a joyful revolution.
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  We're all pretty depressed, and with good reason.
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  Our society is a bit depressing.
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  We've inherited a bit of a depressing scene.
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  Just look at the news and how we treat each other.
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  But it wasn't always so.
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  You know, hunters and gatherers don't treat each other that way.
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  So we know it's possible to not treat each other that way.
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  And maybe with horses, we can begin to use that as a, as a, as a platform to, to try to be better to each other.
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  The difficulty with horses though, is they give us power.
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  So as soon as you're interacting with a horse, you are better, bigger, faster, more beautiful, stronger.
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  As soon as you dismount from the horse or stop interacting with the horse, you just go back to being a monkey again.
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  But as long as the horse is with you, the horse will lend you its power in a very neutral and generous sort of a way.
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  Well, we know what power does to humans, you know, power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely.
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  And that's why, you know, unfortunately the horse world is a, is a factional, fractured, combative, say, or everyone's saying nasty things about each other type world.
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  Not everybody, not always, but I think that the problem to address isn't.
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  so much our attitude towards our horses.
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  It's our attitude to each other.
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  That's definitely a part of it.
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  Yeah, I guess I, Oh, you said so many things that I wanted to comment about the just how we have been nasty to each other.
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  And recently discovering that I'm.
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  Mildly autistic.
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  I have had, it explains so much.
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  I've had so many Experiences that are not really great and my experiences with the horses when I come to be with them with an open heart Using some heart math in a way that I slow down and connect The joy that I feel there is so amplified the joy of coming into a herd of horses without asking anything or having an agenda because they have such big hearts is something that I want to share.
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  And when there's so many people.
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  Or share that it's possible.
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  And there's so many people who have horses, who are around horses, who are not in that state, who don't realize the possibilities.
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  And yes, then those possibilities do translate to people.
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  And in some ways, I think equine assisted practices are a lot about that, like horse, horseship modeling, what human relationship can be.
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  But with horses assisted practices, which of course is, you know, what I do, there is an agenda and it's all right that there's an agenda, by the way, there's an agenda when I'm working without horses with an autistic child.
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  I mean, I do have an agenda, which is to try to ameliorate.
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  the situation for them to try to teach life skills to try to make the life experience joyful and to help with communication and, and so on.
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  That is an agenda, right?
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  And if you, so when I'm hanging out with my horses, well, this is the job they do, but horses like to work.
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  It's like people, I love to work.
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  You love to work.
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  You know, dogs like to work.
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  My dogs love to work.
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  My dogs also work with the kids.
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  And.
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  But they also like being sport horses.
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  They like to jump, they like to trail ride, they like to do dressage, they like to do it all.
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  But what they don't want to do, and same with me, is they don't want to do the same thing all the time.
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  So I rotate them, and sometimes I do nothing.
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  So the times where I just go and hang out, like I was doing that today, we just, it's snowy and icy and You know, we, we did a little bit of in hand work together, but most of the time, actually, I just hang out and I do a lot of that because just going to do the barn chores, they're not standing in store.
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  So they're going to hang out around me.
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  They'll come and check me out.
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  What are you doing?
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  Oh, you're cleaning up my pool.
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  That's kind of interesting.
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  You know, check out over there.
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  Yeah.
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  There's a buzzard flying over there.
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  That's kind of cool, isn't it?
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  You know, and then they, so we spend a lot of time like that.
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  Or I'll be walking them out to a further pasture or something like that.
• 10:55
  But we also do a lot of riding and a lot of training and I like that too.
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  You know, I work with, I work with special needs people as you know but I also write books.
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  I also make films.
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  I also do stuff with horses.
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  I also plant a lot of forests and trees.
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  I also work with healing plants.
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  I also work in human rights.
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  I like to mix it up.
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  I like to be physical and active.
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  And some days I just kind of want to kick back, but not that often, actually, or I'll be like, Oh yeah, I really want to kick back today.
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  And then after, you know, a couple hours, I'm a bit bored and, you know, I begin to ponder.
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  But what I do want, and I think where you're absolutely right is I want, what I want is agency.
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  So I'm, I'm very happy to actually work for someone else's agenda.
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  If you come along, Ishii, and say, Hey, look Roo, you know, I've got this Great idea.
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  I'm there.
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  I'm backing you up.
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  I'm helping you.
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  I say, yeah, tell me what you want me to do.
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  I'm at your service.
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  I'm happy.
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  Happy, it gives me delight and joy to be at your service and at the same time I also want to do my thing and I don't see that we can't mix those things I think that's you know, that'd be great and horses I think are the same.
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  So they want to do lots of things They're curious.
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  They want to move.
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  They want to walk kilometers and kilometers per day Even if we have them out in a big pasture, it's not quite the same So the riding and the exploration and the trail rides, they love it You know, not if we're being horrible to them on it, but let's assume we're not being then when you start getting to sport riding, you know, it's very interesting in the competition world because you absolutely run into horses that adore it.
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  Adore it.
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  They're like born for the crowd and the stage and the I've had horses like this that that just light up in that situation, but it's a minority.
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  It's a minority just like the people.
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  There's a minority of people that really light up in that situation.
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  But for every top sport human, there's a whole bunch of humans who just sort of practice that sport, you know, at a whatever level, just yeah.
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  Because they like it, you know, and so there's a lot of us riding, you know in quote unquote sport riding in that way as well But I think that where every mammal probably every organism is at It's happiest is when we do have a sense of purpose And given that we're not dealing with wild horses which are a very different thing, and I don't include mustangs in that.
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  Mustangs are feral horses from domesticated stock, and they do domesticate very, very fast, and they seek out human contact.
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  I work with a lot of mustangs.
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  I've had a lot of mustangs, and yes, they're different to, you know heavily weared brawnbrow, but not that different.
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  If you go and try and work with zebras, or Wild Ass or Provalsky's horses.
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  That's it.
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  It's a complete, it's like wolf to dog.
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  It's a totally different thing.
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  They were never domesticated and they don't look to us for connection.
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  But, but domestic horses do.
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  Domestic dogs do.
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  Dogs that have gone feral.
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  you know, even if they're several generations in can go right back to being pet dogs.
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  Wolves, maybe, maybe not.
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  Same with wild horses.
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  So we are all, we have domesticated each other, you could almost say.
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  Horses have domesticated us as much as we've domesticated them.
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  And now we're sort of, some might say we're codependent.
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  Others would say we're, we're we're, you know, but one doesn't need to take the whole thing too seriously, is what I think I'm saying.
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  If we can approach it with a light heart.
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  That's better for all of us, I think, and I think equines can help us with that.
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  You know, when we get a little bit up our own bottoms about stuff, you know, horses will come along and just do a poo right there.
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  And it's like, okay, yeah, that's pretty grounding.
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  That reminds me that perhaps I shouldn't take it too seriously.
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  They, they do a lot of that, don't they?
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  So I want to talk a little bit about evidence based versus theory based programs and, and insurance.
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  Do you, do you see much difference?
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  And it, it's it's been a conversation I've been having with someone else.
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  And it's I'm interested in your opinion about it, that if we were able to do more theory based equine assisted therapies and learning.
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  If insurance were open up to that, that it might change what we could do in the programs a little bit.
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  Well, I think, I think insurance companies are their own organism, and so if you want insurance to pay for what you do, you have to speak in the language of the insurance companies speak.
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  You can't go to an insurance company and say, I want you to speak.
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  You know, Dutch when they speak German, they just don't, you know, so, so the, an insurance company is going to, is always going to look for evidence based stuff.
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  So when we were beginning with all our programs, we were not evidence based and because of that, we finance it as best we could.
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  What happened was people started studying us.
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  And so now we are evidence based now there are multiple studies into horseboy method and movement method Probably there will be anything.
• 15:51
  I mean, I mean really multiple there was a phd published just a week ago into movement method there are there have been studies at the university of texas university of gothenburg in sweden University of osnabrück in germany just into horseboy method of movement university of here university of there and university of cologne in germany Grand Canyon University in the USA.
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  I mean, the list goes on.
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  We didn't seek out becoming evidence based.
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  All that happened was people just got interested and started.
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  doing it.
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  We were just busy with the program.
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  But I'm glad they did because yes, it did mean that insurance companies have begun to pay for services that we might provide.
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  Not in every state, not every insurance company, but they do basically now.
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  Yes, they didn't at the beginning.
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  And in England the government will pay for families to have the services that we offer.
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  But all of that has happened, I'd say in the last, well, we've been, let's say we've been doing this for 15 or 16 years.
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  I'd say all that's happened in really the last five or six years.
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  So I don't think, I don't think one needs to worry about it.
• 16:57
  I think that things that are interesting inevitably become evidence based because people become interested in studying them.
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  But studies, studies take time, you know, so your average study takes, you know, even, even a small study, your average study takes 18 months.
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  And then it's sort of two years before it's written up, and if it goes through a peer review process, it's longer.
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  It's just designed that way.
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  If it's a bigger study, it's going to be even longer.
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  But, I think it's not something one needs to trouble oneself with, because if you look at the, if you look at the world of sort of equine assisted stuff, Now as opposed to 10 years ago, it's a completely different picture.
• 17:40
  And there's no doubt that it's more and more accepted and there's no doubt, you know, for example we just got Invited by Eastern Virginia Medical School in Norfolk, Virginia to put on a neuroscience conference.
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  You mentioned Temple Grandin, she'll be the keynote speaker.
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  You know, but there's really, really good neuroscientists there and so on.
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  Because what we do is neuroscience based, but why is it neuroscience based?
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  Because we we, we noticed something was working.
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  And we did it for a few years and then it worked so much that we actively sought out neuroscientists and said, please, can you explain why this is working?
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  And we, we spent a lot of energy on this, you know, so I went to different neuroscientists in different places and different universities, because I wanted to see if they gave me the same answer, basically, if there was consensus, and there was, and then we realized, Oh, I see.
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  Well, then we could replicate this.
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  That's good, you know, but it would, all these things happen in an organic sort of a process.
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  And we only, we ourselves only understood the neuroscience of what we do because we got curious.
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  Because we observed that something was working consistently and stuff that didn't work we stopped doing, stuff that did work we did more of, and then we would, but we're always mentorship based.
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  I think, I think that's, that's maybe the difference.
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  So when I was wondering, standing in a field with my son, who was nonverbal and, you know, incontinent and tantruming, wondering what to do.
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  I didn't, I knew I couldn't work it out by myself.
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  So I deliberately went to Temple Grandin for mentorship.
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  I sat in her office and said, please tell me how my son becomes you.
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  And she did.
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  She told me what to do and I followed it.
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  So it started with me going to an adult autist who had started as severe as my son was, because she was very severe when she was young, including incontinent, and who had sort of made it in the neurotypical world and followed the direction of that person, and that advice worked, and then that was what led to the horse.
• 19:43
  It wasn't specifically horse based, but it led to the horse, and then what happened on the horse was working so well, and when I emulated I talked about these rhythms, these collected rhythms, when I emulated them, not on horses, it worked as well.
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  So that was the point at which I thought, okay, I need people to explain to me what's going on because I don't know.
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  So that's a neuroscience thing, let me go and talk to neuroscientists.
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  And so it's about the seeking out of mentorship.
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  And I think if one does that, then the evidence based stuff kind of will follow naturally, but because you're engaging with it yourself, but it won't happen quickly.
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  Because evidence based stuff just doesn't, it just takes time to get data together and analyze it and publish it.
• 20:30
  It's not a quick thing, never was.
• 20:35
  Well, you and Dr.
• 20:35
  Grandin have both changed the world, you know, in your own ways and significantly.
• 20:40
  Especially in the category of autism, like, oh my gosh, and animals.
• 20:46
  Well, we've been honored, I think, to find ourselves in a position where This was the road in front of us, but it wasn't, I think, for either of us, the adventure we set out on originally.
• 20:59
  It came along and it mugged us.
• 21:01
  Yeah, yeah.
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  But I'm very glad it did.
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  Super fulfilling.
• 21:06
  So are you part of the Quiet Revolution in some ways?
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  I don't know.
• 21:13
  I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm me.
• 21:16
  I, you know, so I like the things you say about being nice to horses.
• 21:23
  Absolutely.
• 21:24
  I like the things about being nice to people.
• 21:26
  Absolutely.
• 21:28
  I think if there's a quiet revolution for me, it's, I'm talking just from a purely personal point of view.
• 21:37
  It's, it's, it's about looking back towards the hunter gatherer system of ethics of how to live as a human being.
• 21:43
  Absolutely.
• 21:44
  And trying as best one can to live that way in our modern and post modern world, which I think is, is doable because there's enough of us that I'm very, I'm very optimistic.
• 21:55
  I'm, I'm a born optimist and I think the world is getting better, not worse.
• 21:59
  The fact that we become more aware of problems isn't a bad thing.
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  It just means that, you know, we're, we're becoming more and more discerning.
• 22:06
  But in general, everybody's quality of life is higher in general.
• 22:10
  Even with what's going on in the world, there is actually less war than there's ever been.
• 22:15
  One can forget this, you know, but my, my grandparents were involved in World War II and, you know, it was a very different world back then.
• 22:23
  And people starved to death on the streets of Europe and, you know, all of that.
• 22:26
  That's, that's not happening anymore.
• 22:28
  This is good.
• 22:29
  You know we have an environmental movement.
• 22:32
  We, we are trying to, So is that the quiet revolution?
• 22:37
  You know, we're trying to get back to gender equality because that's where we ought to be.
• 22:41
  Anything other than that is absurd.
• 22:43
  I mean, absurd, you know.
• 22:46
  To marginalize 50 percent of the No, completely absurd.
• 22:50
  You can see historically why it happened, but it's absurd.
• 22:52
  You know, but are we on our way there?
• 22:53
  Yeah, yeah, yeah, we are.
• 22:56
  So is that a quiet revolution?
• 22:58
  I think so.
• 22:59
  So I, I think your quiet revolution is part of a greater quiet revolution, which is just us trying to be better to each other, you know, honestly than we, than we have been so far.
• 23:08
  And so there might be niches of that that have to do with the human animal connection or a human in a particular kind of animal connection like a horse.
• 23:16
  And there could be aspects of it that are.
• 23:18
  More broad, like the oceans or the environment in general but it all comes down to the same thing, I think, which is a desire to build a better world, you know.
• 23:28
  I like that.
• 23:29
  Thank you.
• 23:30
  Thank you so much for taking time to talk with me today, Rupert.
• 23:34
  I really appreciate it.
• 23:36
  Oh, thank you.
• 23:36
  It's an honor.
• 23:38
  I enjoyed it.
• 23:40
  All right.
• 23:41
  I'm going to sign off.
• 23:44
  Thanks again.
• 23:46
  Bye bye.
• 23:46
  Bye.