Latest / Not Another Energy Podcast / PSPS, Safety or BS?
Transcript
- speaker-0: Hello, hello, hello. Welcome to your new favorite show, not another energy podcast. I'm Bethany. speaker-1: And I'm Teresa. speaker-0: And together we are Bloom Advisory Partners. Recently, we attended Smart Grids USA, a conference that was being held in Los Angeles, California. And there were a lot of new technologies that are focused on wildfire and weather impacts to the grid. We heard a lot about planned outages as a solution. So this week is all about what if losing power wasn't a failure of the system, but the system working exactly as designed. Today we're looking at planned outages from California's wildfire shutoffs to Colorado's wind-driven grid shutoffs. And then we're gonna zoom out across Africa, across South America, because in much of the world, power isn't always guaranteed. It's scheduled. And to kick this off, Teresa, why don't we talk about where our modern model started in the great state that we were just in, California. speaker-1: Yes. So first, I mean, I am not an expert on this. I'd kind of heard about it. And then sitting through a conference where it was like the number one thing was sort of stuck in my brain. The idea that your whole purpose of a monopoly utility is to keep the power on no matter what. But in California and it's sort of creeping into into other places, it's sort of become this thing of your power is on no matter what, unless we tell you it's not going to be. And just that's just become acceptable, I guess. And yes, I know there's wildfires and things like that. But yeah, they actually ⁓ put it into their laws, rules, and regs. Public safety power shutoffs. speaker-0: Yes, PS P S, which was a term that I really had not heard too much at other energy conferences, but was absolutely all over this one. PSPS. speaker-1: Yes. ⁓ and the design of it is basically we're going to tell you in advance that conditions are at a point we're going to turn your power off. And there's not really much you can do about it. So you've just gotta sort of suck it up and not have power, which was a really weird thing to hear at a conference where there were so many technologies designed to avoid this exact thing. And I just kept sitting there thinking, these are just, you know, tip of the spear. There's gotta be so many technologies. Why why would why is the acceptable thing to not adopt the technologies, but instead just turn your power off? speaker-0: Well I mean I think because a lot of the solutions threaten the modern, you know, Monopoly utility. ⁓ who I would argue actually not only are people accepting it, just from talking to people, it's almost starting to become like, ⁓ the utility's protecting us. Like it's you what it like it's it's it's th they are, I don't want to say like embracing it, but they're not questioning it even because the way that it's being framed and kind of sold to them as a safety solution. Yes. speaker-1: Yes. It it's one of those things where as humans w we just adapt and I feel like we've just adapted to accept and and maybe it's 'cause we don't live in California, Bethany. I I know we we went to dinner with one of your family members who lives there and she was telling us about ⁓ the neighborhood she lived in and her friends lived in and and it's just sitting there thinking about not the fact that this happened, but d do you remember she was telling us about in the rebuild. How difficult it was just to even have the lines buried. Shouldn't that have been like the number one thing and the easiest thing? speaker-0: Yeah, and I thought yeah, I mean and again, I I I am in Pennsylvania, not in California, but I thought there was this big movement and all this investment in putting the lines underground as they were rebuilding to avoid the to avoid them being impacted in f in future events. So why is it still problematic, right? I mean it should be a fail complete, if you will. speaker-1: Yes. And it is interesting because you and I sort of sit in this world of reading the news and reading the orders. And it was very ⁓ surreal to be sitting with somebody who's living it real time and having them talk about how really, really hard it is just to get the most basics of things that are supposed to be mandated for safety. speaker-0: Yeah, no, I agree. I agree. and you know, granted in California we are talking about wildfires, but you know, I feel like there's this creep, if you will, too, into other areas. ⁓ maybe turning to look at our friends in Colorado and what we're seeing there with different not wildfires, but wind and weather and things like that. Yeah. speaker-1: Yes. I I Colorado is the next state that has sort of adopted this concept. Again, fire risk. They had a really dry winter and extremely high winds. ⁓ we saw a presentation by a meteorologist who was sort of talking about this and he was his solution was better accuracy. but better accuracy for when to turn the power off, which speaker-0: Yeah. speaker-1: was also very interesting. 'Cause again, like so now Colorado has looked at California and said, ⁓ it's it's okay that your only solution is to turn the power off. Yes. Not bury the lines, not we've known wildfire risk has existed now for going on twenty some years, not install microgrids, not you know, everybody gets their own gen source, which again, shouldn't that be an easy solution? You have your own Gen source on your house. So we don't need these wires going all over the place, risking wildfire. We could sort of centralize things a little bit. Why is that not the solution? I just it blows my mind that we're operating like some third world countries. It's just speaker-0: Be detect and divert, right? Not detect and PSPS. speaker-1: Yes. ⁓ speaker-0: Yeah, exactly. That anytime I mean, cause yeah, they there are some incredible detection systems out there. And we talked to many of the people and many of them presented at the conference last week. But they were presenting alongside people that were also providing solutions that meant you wouldn't have to shut it off. So it was kind of I I don't know if irony is the right word here, but I you know, they were at the same conference talking about the same problem, just two different solutions. One being just shut her all down. And the other being, well, you could have a microgrid. Yeah. speaker-1: I mean, we for the listeners out there, we saw everything from wires to detection on the grid to build it better and use better technologies. I mean, it ran the gamut. And everybody sort of danced around a little bit the fact that these shut off notices, you know, ⁓ we're gonna give you four hours notice so you can adjust your entire life are things that like places like Africa use us, right? I mean, because they they just have never built up their infrastructure the right way. That's I forget what they call them Bethany, but basically there's a time every day that you know it's coming and they're gonna shut it off. Load shedding. That's what they call it. speaker-0: Yeah, I was gonna say load shedding. Yeah, sorry. I was gonna I was gonna help you out there. Yeah. speaker-1: It's it's their it's their system design. So they actually designed it to cut power deliberately for hours at a time, which I like to listen to the Trevor Nova podcast just so you know. He He he talks about this. He he did a little thing with his ⁓ grandmother where he was basically like, Hey, what can I do if you have money now? And she was like, I would like a generator speaker-0: Yeah. He's funny. Yeah. I mean, that makes sense. That makes sense. But th they they were set up that way kinda because they have to be though, right? Because they don't have the robust modern grid that we have here, right? I mean, is it more isn't it was built like that by necessity. Yeah. speaker-1: Exactly. Exactly. And it's one of those things where you're just sitting there though thinking we we had a robust modern grid. And normally in any other technology in the US, if we saw a problem with something, we would find the technology, implement it, and fix it. But it feels like with our grid we're taking steps backward. And I'm worried that this concept is going to leak across the US. That instead of there being a pushback of this is unacceptable, your one job is to ⁓ what's there's a former chair who used to say people just want their their lights on and their beer cold. speaker-0: Sounds like a cool dude. speaker-1: Yeah. Yeah. when did it become no, it's cool if my beer is slightly warm. speaker-0: Let me ask you kind of a philosophical question. Do you think the people are more primed, US residents specifically, because of the way that we've been framing different products and services to them? I'm thinking to, you know, the kind of scale back when there's a peak. You know, the way that we've been talking to them about their energy use, do you think it's kind of primed them to this concept of there's this like playability around energy and we're all a part of it? And if it's for our safety, then it's a good thing. I mean, I'm wondering, did we? Do we accidentally prime energy consumers to think that this is okay? speaker-1: Yes. Yes. I think about every time you have an outage and everybody's like, ⁓ my gosh, thank you, name of the utility, so much for bringing my power back up. speaker-0: Yeah, we just had one last night here at Pittsburgh, a horrible storm went through and like thirty thousand people lost power. I was not one of them, thankfully. But and yeah, you go onto my neighborhood Facebook group. ⁓ thank you to King Light. Yeah. speaker-1: Yeah. Thank you so much for for doing the thing that you should have been prepared for and my power never should have gone out in the first place. We've sort of trained everybody culturally to treat them as the hero. And the reality is you're paying them for a service and that never should have happened. I mean, didn't Duquesne just invest a whole bunch of money because you guys had that weird Derecho or whatever last year? Yeah. Why didn't why did this happen again? I mean, you guys You know when the storm is coming. You have taken billions of dollars into storm readiness. You know that the winds in Pittsburgh are gonna be really, really strong. And I I know this. I mean, I I I saw the Kennywood stuff. What was that? Like eight years ago. ⁓ yeah. ⁓ the micro burst, right? Yeah. speaker-0: Yeah. Yeah, I'll I'll link to that in the show notes. Yeah, that was that was big news here. So yeah. speaker-1: Yeah. I I mean it's where I live, it's flat. The wind goes strong. Illinois. I Comed just a few months ago had the power out for days for people and couldn't give them any information. I mean like the the posts were just filled with people who couldn't even get a hold of somebody to help them because Comed's system said that their power was back on and it wasn't. And then Comed's response to these people was You don't know how to use our system. I mean, we have trained people to be at the mercy of the utility and then grateful when they kick you. It's ridiculous. ⁓ my god, I'm going on a ramp. No. speaker-0: No, this is what we're here for. The people are here for Teresa. So, but this is what you were talking about when you said creep, right? So it started in California with the wildfires. And I think everybody is like, okay, we get that. And they're like, well, it's working here. And Colorado looks at it and says, Hey, if it's working there, we could reduce our power outages. Cause when your power goes out from a storm, you do you get angry, you get upset, you're not ready for it. But now the utilities are like, wait a minute, we're gonna tell you that we're doing it. For your safety. And so when it does go off, you're gonna be like, ⁓ okay, I knew about this, and then it's gonna come back on and you're gonna not have that experience that you have when it goes out without warning. So what the utilities have done, evil brilliant, is they they have now made it seem like what they are doing is a good thing instead of an absolute failure on their part. Yes. I mean, you talk about messaging. speaker-1: Instead of saying you need to invest in more. It's yeah. ⁓ okay. Well, thanks for the four hour notice of a four hour outage. I guess I won't do the 12 loads of laundry I'd plan to do. Right. Or I guess the groceries I just brought home, I'll make sure that they're in the fridge and hope it all gets cold in time. It just it blows my mind, Bethany. And I if if I didn't sit there and see all the technologies that prevent this, I probably would be less upset than I am. speaker-0: Yeah. Well, you know, let's and let's talk about what are some of the solutions? I mean, obviously microgrids, right? Yes. Be being able to have gen at your own house. Generators. I mean, there's you know, what what what would be one solution that you think would be easy, but obviously not able to be implemented in our current monopoly utility structure? speaker-1: I think there's a few things. I think microgrids, but at a neighborhood level. Mm-hmm. I think making sure because if it's at a neighborhood level, you can not have as big of an outage. Right. ⁓ I do think that solar and gen attach directly to your home. I think batteries are a solution, batteries right next to your home. I'm not saying that these things don't catch fire, obviously. Right. But You're not running them through long, long areas, right? Where you don't have miles and miles of wires where anything could go wrong. So you have a better ability to take care of something and stop it before it becomes a bigger problem. But you also have all the stuff that we just talked about, burying the lines. I mean, we saw a company that was talking about burying transmission lines. That's a huge thing. Making the gen closer. To everything. We now have Jen that's a little bit cleaner and whatever. So do we really need that big coal plant that's, you know, 200 miles away to support everything? I don't think that it's all about the monopoly. I think the monopoly could invest in these things and help you get these things on your home. But I'm pretty confident that turning off your power is not the ultimate solution. Nor should it, should it be. I mean, we're Almost a decade into these types of things. We're still turning power off. Like what? speaker-0: Well and I mean climate change is real. So it's not like these these weather events ⁓ are going to get less or going to go away or going to stop. I think it's just gonna be a an escalation over time as we've seen. ⁓ and you know, and even we're st there's still so much talk to just around, you know, grid infrastructure and reliability. Like we don't we we know that our grid is what hundred and fifty years old or what you know, we're we're we're already working with an aging infrastructure. So now I think you've got the dual problem of not having the grid that we need already. And now we're asking it to take on the increased strains that are coming because of climate change. Yes. speaker-1: I I d I I also think that there's ways to maintain the grid grid better. And I'm not sure that we're using all the tools at our disposal. ⁓ and to be fair, you know, I say this all the time. The utilities can only do what the regulators let them do. Mm-hmm. So is Me and are you and I sitting here blaming the utility when in fact we should be looking at regulators and saying, why do you find this acceptable? Why are you not pushing your utilities to prevent this from happening? And I mean that everywhere, not just outside of California. You see you saw what happened in California, you've seen what's now happening in Colorado. Do you really think that this couldn't happen in your backyard? Because it seems like it could. And is this going to be your acceptable solution? Or are you gonna start approving things now that would prevent these types of power outages? speaker-0: Well, mean, I think I think there's three levels, I don't want to say of blame, right? But there's three there's three stakeholder groups, if you will, that I think are where things get jammed up. I think it's regulators, I think it's utilities, and I think it's customers. Because we are accepting of it. We're not clamoring for change. And, you know, and in between that are these layers of the technology and the people that are building the solutions that could be implemented. And I think that they get jammed up at a couple different spots, right? I mean, I think that if more customers were going to their regulators and demanding these things, we'd have an easier time getting them to sign up for them, right? I I mean, there's not a ton of people at, you know, busting into my public utility commission and demanding change, you know? It's just it's not a it's not a thing. speaker-1: Sure. Yes. No, I I agree. I also ⁓ think that sometimes the consumer advocates lose their way. They they focus so much on the the bill cost that they lose sight of reliability. And I would say that across the country. I see it everywhere. They never really talk about reliability. And it's like the strangest thing to me. speaker-0: No, I agree. I was just gonna say 'cause it's affordability, right? Because in the next question, so so we could say to people, hey, you shouldn't be accepting that your utility is just gonna shut off your power because a storm's coming in. You should be demanding a better solution for it. But, you know, somebody's gonna have to pay for it, right? And so it it I it it's it's a I don't wanna say it's a hard sell, but The affordability argument is always gonna win over the reliability argument until we have a massive national blackout, like a like a huge blackout of it. It's gonna take something major to get the conversation shifted from affordability to reliability. It's in my mind. speaker-1: I mean, we'll talk about this in a future podcast, but we've had one of those. ⁓ in the early two thousands. I I mean, actually I would argue we've had a few of those, but it always comes back to New York, First Energy wiped out the whole East Coast, right? I mean it's it is it's such a strange thing. But, you know, I in this one, I'm gonna say it's not the utility's fault. I don't ⁓ choking on that a little bit. I just speaker-0: Listen, you're you're screwing up my whole thesis. No, I'm just kidding. Go ahead. speaker-1: I do think I do think it's a regulator and a legislator issue to to push and say, Legislature, we're gonna pass a law that tells the commission that you're going to do these things. And usually when you get something like that, things move a lot faster. speaker-0: Okay. speaker-1: But to be fair, California passed a law that said these these PS PS things that that they're okay. I mean, to the point like people have tried to sue and get money back for their lost groceries and whatever. Yeah. And because they have this law, they actually are just sort of out of luck. speaker-0: So when the regulators were pushed, they kind of went the the other the other way. So now so we are living in a reality where we are accepting that our grid can operate the way that a grid in a third world country could operate and we're okay with it for now. ⁓ I mean ⁓ speaker-1: So So I'm not okay with it, but the entire state of people are. speaker-0: And there's no I was gonna say there's no solution, but there is. There's many, many solutions. We were very, very lucky to have talked to ⁓ a lot of people about it when we were in California last week. And Teresa, I would be remiss if I did not mention, by the way, what an amazing job you did with your presentation at Smart Crest USA last week. And I am I'm gonna reference it here as we close out because I want you to s I think because everybody is stuck in safe brain. So before we close out, would you explain what safe brand is and why it might be stopping people from seeing beyond this PSPS solution? speaker-1: Yes. So ⁓ there's a neuroscientist whose name escapes me right now, but we'll put it in the show notes. ⁓ safe brain is you are so afraid of stuff that your brain will always say no. You will always do whatever makes you feel good, but nothing creative or innovative and you will never move forward because it you fear it. And this is true in any scenario. When your brain gets into safe mode, that's where you get stuck. Smart brain is acknowledging that this is something new and different, but accepting the change and it allows you to be more creative and think about things differently. And I would say where we're at right now is we're in safe brain. But that was scary. The power went out, but thank goodness I had my hero utility to turn it back on instead of the smart brain perspective, which is why in the heck did my power go out in the first place? This is not the first bad storm. We've had. speaker-0: See, that's right. People need to get out of safe brain into smart brain. And maybe then, maybe then we could come up with a better solution than a PSPS. Well, thank you guys for joining us. Thank you for listening. Again, I'm Bethany. We are Bloom Advisory Partners. Please join us for our next episode of Not Another Energy Podcast because remember, guys, energy is never just about energy. speaker-1: Teresa.