Latest / Crooked Tree: A West Memphis 3 Podcast / Case Chat #1: Jason White Responds

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Case Chat #1: Jason White Responds · Crooked Tree: A West Memphis 3 Podcast

• Bonus Ep. 1: Welcome to this bonus episode of Crooked Tree, a West Memphis 3 podcast. Hey everybody. it's Kristen. I'm here with Paul as always. And we had an interesting experience, and we wanted to share that with you guys. We had somebody come forward that we've talked about on this podcast who was tangentially involved in this case, and he was like, Some of that information isn't right, and I want to correct it. And so, like, That's awesome. So Paul actually talked to this guy. Yeah, I had the opportunity to talk to Jason White for over an hour. Jason White was featured in our episode 14 about the broken knife. He was one of the four teens that was running around and a knife got broken, left behind, and then somebody phoned the West Memphis PD and said, Hey, I left a broken knife out there and it made him suspects. And so Jason White listened to that episode and there was some details in it. He totally agreed with. He's like, You guys are Killing it, you're doing great. But there's some other stuff that he wanted corrected. So I had a great conversation with an absolutely fabulous guy who was right there on the day that the boys went missing. And it was wonderful to talk to him. Yeah, and I think it's super important. And we we recorded our conversation just so you guys can get peeked behind the curtain and see. Like this is just typical of what like the a million conversations Paul and I have had over the last 10 years trying to figure out. what's fact and what's fiction and you know what might be misrepresented or misunderstood. And it's just it's just one of those conversations we had and we thought, well, we'll record it and maybe you guys want to hear it. But I think the important takeaway from all of this is going to be be like Jason. If you were a part of this case, if you know something about this case and we say something, or the West Memphis Police Department has reported something that is not accurate and we're reading it because that's what the report says and you know that not to be true. Even if it's a small detail, reach out. we'd love to talk to you. We can have a phone call. We can just, text. We can talk on messenger. You can call us. We could even have you on the podcast for you to set the record straight in your own words. Like we welcome that. We want to make sure we get it right. That's why we're here. We're here for the truth and nothing else. Yeah, this is a difficult story to tell. And getting all the elements right isn't always easy. And talking to Jason, I think he totally understood that we're doing the best we could on our end. And like I said, absolutely awesome guy. Totally appreciated the opportunity to talk to him and look forward to hearing from him and anybody else again. If we're getting something wrong, we want to get it right. We wanna get the story right. And that's the most important thing to us. So we were glad to record this conversation back and forth. Kristen and I started to talk about it and Kristen said, you know, we should record this so people can Listen in over our shoulders to s see how we work this stuff out. And, you know, ultimately we conclude that Jason is almost certainly telling it like it is. Right. Those little changes don't have a dramatic effect on the outcome of the case or the timeline. But overall it does have an impact on how we feel about certain witnesses and how they look at things and where they are. And we deeply appreciate him reaching out. He went out of his way to reach out to me. This was important to him and he wanted everybody to know his side of this and I appreciate it and I think he's completely truthful. That's awesome. Like I said, be like Jason. If you know something, reach out. We'd love to hear from you. And here is the conversation that Paul and I had about what Jason had to say. So did you were you able to get in contact with Jason? Yeah, we finally were able to find some time to get on the phone. Apparently he works on Friday nights and I wasn't available with the kids. So we finally were able to talk today and we spent over an hour on the phone and it was really it was really interesting. He's a really nice guy. He's a really, really friendly, nice guy. And I think he just wanted to get the record straight on his side of this thing and what he thinks is going on. And, there's some stuff that he feels was not accurate. And he just wanted to put it out there from his perspective. So it was it was really good. Stuff we said or stuff that was in the police reports? It was mostly in the police reports and the conclusions we made from the police reports, you know, we had concluded that he and his friends had seen the two little girls, Kim and Dawn that day and and we had said at the end, it's like, yeah, they they saw him. He's like, No, that that's not accurate. So he wanted to get in front of it and tell his view of it. And some of the information he had to say was pretty interesting. So we went through some of the things that he said were inaccurate, and I made a list as I was going through it. And some of the stuff was pretty cool. you know, for example, he was hanging out with his guy, Kent Lynn, that day. And he had made it very clear that Kent was somebody that he did not normally run around with. He ran around with Kent just a little bit that day and maybe a couple of times after that, but he wasn't really part of the social group. He had the sense that Kent had a some type of romantic interest in s in Sam, the female, who is Billy's cousin. Well Kent Kent had just moved there, right? He just moved into that neighborhood. He was from Marion. He'd been living I I think he'd been living in Marion prior to that. But he was not part of their friend circle for very long it but it was during this period of time that Kent was around. So he talked a little bit about Kent and his very short relationship with Kent. He said that they just weren't friends. They just weren't close. And he also said that in all these years he didn't know that at any point the West Memphis PD had even looked at them as suspects in the case. And that wild l listening to the episode kind of opened up his eyes on that whole thing. And he was like, I you know, and it's It's probably stressful to hear that for the first time after all these years to say, wait a minute, we that's what that was all about when they were questioning us about what was happening that day. So I think he understands the reality of it and what was going on. It was a really good conversation and you know, he he validated a lot of the stuff that we said. He says, Yeah, you're doing a really good job, but there's a couple little things I want to get fixed. So he talked about that. he talked about kind of the center their friend group is in fact. Carlos Seals out. He was the center of this whole thing. And April was another center of their friend group that they were all really tied in together with one another. And he had some yeah, really positive things to say about April, of course. They're still friends, and you know, we know April, and we had never even thought to bring up Jason ever a single time. Jason is No, we've never asked her about him. Yeah. So he talked a little bit about the How they were all together, how he knew Ryan and Britt and all those guys, Nicholas Almeida, and that they are all still in contact. So it it is really good to hear that. And they're an open book, he said. He said if we have any questions, we could just reach out to So are they all listening to the podcast? I don't know if they all are. My understanding is some of them are. Interesting. So what like what what all did he say we got wrong? Well, so remember the The way we were presenting it was there were the two girls that ran into two black males and a white male out at Devil's Den at about 530 to 545. And later on, Kim Williams would say it's from the fourth house on the left up on Wilson Street. So that leads you to Carlos Seals' house. Jason White said, Carlos and I were together that afternoon. We didn't see two little girls, and we certainly didn't offer anybody a shot. He's basically saying that didn't happen. Interesting. At least it didn't happen with respect to them. So the identification of it going to them, he's disputing that strongly and fiercely, in fact. He's saying it didn't happen. He said the last thing last thing he would do is come up and say a menacing comment about a shot or something like that. He goes, I we didn't do any of that kind of stuff. He was a church going kid and last thing he wanted to do is menace two little kids. He said that was completely it's kind of bizarre that it wound up on their shoulders to some extent. Interesting. Well I believe him. I that's that's interesting. I'm just checking. It's been a minute since I read what Don and Kim said. I was just gonna look at that. So Don Moore says Saw three boys coming out of Robin Hood, one white male seventeen, yellow black shorts and top striped shoes, one black male seventeen, one black male seventeen, so two black males seventeen. They asked if I wanted a shot. I thought of drugs, felt it would be needles coming out. Five thirty to six, sun still out and light outside. Forty-five minutes later, saw white male and at least one black male go into a house north of Kim's house, close to Goodwin, about the fourth. Fourth house off of Goodwin on the west side. Mm-hmm. Okay, so she clearly doesn't know, which we said before, right? Like, or neither one of them say they know any of the boys. They just describe like given age. Yeah, the given age. So there's two claims made by the girls, right? It's the offering a shot, and the other claim was that the boys, that being two of them, Michael and Stevie. Had gone into Devil's Den behind those boys, which is what kept them out of Devil's Den. Jason Jason White is very clear. He said, I did not see the other two boys, the little boys, the victims, at all that day. Never saw he saw Christopher? He did not see Christopher either. He didn't see any of the boys. He didn't see any of the two boys that the girls were claiming, and he didn't see Christopher at all. He said he's only seen Christopher a single time in his entire life. So he disputes seeing the boys and he disputes seeing or he disputes the offer of the shot. He's basically saying if it happened, it wasn't us. Right. So that's interesting. So I mean it could easily be another group of boys with similar descriptions, right? One white male, two black males hanging out in that air. I mean, we know that neighborhoods like full of kids and teenagers. still is. Yeah, that was actually what he said. He goes, This is Robin Hood. There's kids out there all the time. Right. Okay. That's what Don said. Let's see what Kim that's that's really interesting. All right. Kim said that between five thirty and six on five five, she saw Steve and Michael going into Robin Hood, into the ditch that goes to the Devil's Den area. She stated that she saw Their bicycles parked by the road near Goodwin. So Jason didn't see the boys or their bicycles. Jason said he didn't see the boys or their bicycles, yeah. So if if it was Carlos, Billy, and Jason that Kim and Don are identifying, they would have seen at least the bicycles, even if they didn't see Michael and Stevie, right? I mean, they would have had to. Jason's disputing seeing even the little girls. He's saying it didn't happen. So we're looking at a different group of kids. You're either looking at a d different group of kids and these little girls, Kim and Don, are misidentifying them, right? And attributing this to Carlos and his friends. Well, so they don't know but they don't know them by name. Like the only Yeah, they're not the same friend group. The only identifying thing is the house they say they saw them go into, right? that's the only thing that leads us to Carlos, which would lead us to Jason and Billy. I in part, right. Mm it's the somewhat matching descriptions, except there is a little wrinkle in this. We know that Carlos is with Billy and with Jason that day, but we also know that Kent is also there. So two black males and two white males. Which is exactly what Jason said there were four of them, not three of them. That's what Carlos told the police was that there were four of them. I know, but what does what did Jason say? Did he say there were four of them or three of them? Jason said he doesn't remember Kent being with them that day. He remembers himself being with Billy and he goes he he doesn't really even f firmly remember that. But he does remember he was with Carlos that day. So Kent was with them on Sunday when the whole knife incident happened, but not on Wednesday. According to Carlos, what he told the police, he said yes. He said that Kent was there. What Jason is saying is he doesn't remember that part. He doesn't remember that. Yeah he admitted that there were things he remembered extremely well, it was yesterday, and other things that are a little fade a little faded in his memory. interesting. Well, let's see. So like for example, he remembers Ryan coming up. He remembers it vividly, Ryan coming up and saying, Hey, my brother's missing. Can you guys help us find him? We know that that happened. Carlos said as much. And his memory, that being Jason's memory, is exactly that of what Carlos had reported on May the eighth in his police report when he said we were we looked for our a little bit. Jason left a little bit early. Of course it says it's his cousin, but we now know that Jason is not Carlos's cousin. It's just a friend of his. Jason had a lot to say. Jason a lot to say. It was really g it was really good. It was a good talk. Well, that's good. I mean, that's awesome to clear stuff up 'cause I mean, we got these documents to go on, you know. unless somebody talks to us, we don't really know if they've gotten it completely wrong unless we figure out that they've you know, just from the documentation that they've gotten something wrong. Okay. Well so in Jason's statements it ha it's either having nothing to do with that day or it's about the knife. Yeah, by the way, he he doesn't dispute the knife. He says the knife that did happen. It was on Sunday. And Okay. And basically he and Carlos went with Kent and with Sam and Billy out to the pipe. He said Carlos and he did not want to cross the pipe. He said there were they didn't want to fall into the water and, you know, drown or have anything like that. I didn't ask him if it was the dangerous water conditions or anything like that, but he said that. Wasn't worth the risk, and they wanted to go and cross, and they signed up on Turtle Hill, and he said, he and Carlos went home. Okay. Which is exactly what it says in the report. he has a perfect memory of that. Okay. But he also remembered Kent breaking the knife out there. But he says that was all on Sunday. So Carlos's interview from May the eighth. says that he and Billy, Kent, and Jason were on Goodwin in the Robin Hood Hills area when one of the victims' brother, so Ryan. He confirmed it was Ryan. He said Ryan by Dame. Yeah. Right. Well, I mean, none of the other victims have a brother. Yeah, well, we could deduce it, but you know, some you always know how people are. Right. If you don't s if it doesn't actually say Ryan, how do you know? It could be somebody else. I guess Stevie has a He had stepbrothers. Stepbrothers. I think he a stepbrother. A stepbrother. okay. So Billy Kent, Jason, on Goodwin in Robin Hood area when one of the twins' brothers asked him to help find his brother. This was Wednesday afternoon, five five. The four boys, after talking, decided not to go into the woods. Carlos and boy one and two, that's Billy and Kent. Stayed on Goodwin for a few minutes and boy three left the area to go home. I hate this handwriting. after a few minutes typical Sudbury handwriting, right? Right. After a few minutes actually this is good compared to most of his handwriting. Yeah, I did notice that. That's his formal printing and even After a few minutes, Carlos, Billy, and Kent split up. And all went home. At this point, boy two and three, so Kent and Jason have not been talked to. Carlos was very helpful and appeared to be truthful. Number three, which is Jason, is Carlos' cousin, but you're saying he's not his cousin? Yeah, Jason completely disputes that. He says that they're friends, that he had moved into the area and he became friends with Carlos. No, if Carlos was his cousin or not. I wonder what's actually the first thing he said, he goes, Yeah, Carlos is not my cousin. We're friends, but he's not my cousin. Said Barry thinks they're cousins. It's an odd thing to see in the notes like that. Yeah, we'll have to figure that out. Weird. Okay. So according to Carlos, yeah, you're right. There were four of them, not three. But he said that Jason went home before the other three. Did Jason say that too? He said that Ryan showed up and said, Would you guys please help me look for my brother? Jason said that he was already under stress because he had to get home for curfew and he was he would get in big trouble if he was late. He was making that very clear to be honest. Making it three boys there. Yeah, he yeah, he left right at that time. Yeah. So Jason wouldn't show up been one of them. Okay. Interesting. But then then According to Kevin Don, the descriptions would be wrong because that would leave two white males and one black male instead of two black males and one white male. Well, the time that Jason would have left would have been about six twenty. So after Don and Ken said they saw the boys. This would have been after, yeah. Okay. So the question is is when did the other white male join the group? And that probably would have been Kent Lynn, who probably would have shown up sometime around six ish. Or he was there already. who knows? all we know is that the girls say there were three. But again, to that point, Jason's saying it's not us. Right, right. I'm just trying to like put the two statements together and see if it makes any sense. but then Carlos said Jason left and then Carlos and Kent and Billy stayed on Goodwin for a few minutes. And then they split up and all went home. So Carlos doesn't say that Billy and can't go to his house. He said they all went home. And according to Kim, she saw the same boys from Goodwin enter a house that's basically the location of Carlos' house. So that doesn't make any sense either. Like either the house is wrong, like it's not Carlos's house. But why would Carlos say that? That doesn't make any sense. This is the eighth. This is three days after the boys disappear, so it's gotta be pretty accurate, right? h memories sooner are better than memories fifteen, twenty, thirty years later. Well, to that point, Jason's memory of that day is pretty much identical to what Carlos told the police on the eighth. he Okay. So he corroborates what Carlos said, except for the Kent part. Except for the Kent part which he doesn't remember Kent being there. That's right. So if this is accurate and Jason leaves first and then Kent and Billy and Carlos split up from g like while they're on Goodwin to go home, then Carlos went home by himself. He didn't go home with two other kids. Right? That's it's inconsistent. Is that how you read it? It's inconsistent with how Kim Williams describes the situation because Kim says they went in there. Now the question is whether or not Carlos means it literally or figuratively, like we We s well he does say we split up. Well, Sudbury said that Carlos said they split up. It went we've got to remember we're talking about good point. Talking about Sudbury here. I don't see the evidence that Carlos has told anything untrue about that day. In fact, just talking to Jason, like I said, Jason's memory of this is exactly the same as Carlos, and he was not familiar with the report by Carlos at all, other than what we said on the podcast. Right. Well, he didn't know he had a file, right? Well, he didn't know it was included on Callahan under Carlos's name. Yeah. So yeah, see these other notes under Carlos are about the knife incident. Yeah, which he doesn't dispute. He said that Kent was playing with the knife, he broke it and left it out there, and he didn't have any issues with us talking about that. So it really just comes down to he didn't see the kids that day and he didn't offer any little girls a shot or And he doesn't and he said Carlos didn't do it either. He says I was right with him. And he didn't go to Carlos's house from Goodwin. No, he said he had to go home. He said he had to go home. He said that he felt bad that he couldn't stay in search because he had to go home. He was under dress. He you didn't want to be late. You were just gonna get in trouble. It kinda sounds like Kim and Don saw completely different boys. I just don't understand the like the location of where they're saying they saw these boys go into, which would is basically Carlos's house. do they have them mixed up 'cause they didn't they didn't know those boys. So would it be possible that they saw one set of boys not Carlos and his friends, but then later saw Carlos going into a house with somebody else, not those boys, or saw that same set of boys going into a house near Carlos's house. And it has nothing to do with Carlos, Jason, Billy, and Kent. that's on the table, right? It could just be other kids. But to that point, Jason doesn't dispute being out there in that area at that not necessarily at that time. Because remember, Kim and Don said that their observation of Michael and Stevie was between five thirty and six. But when you include the fact that Chris wasn't there, you can now narrow it down to five thirty to five forty five. Five forty five. So now we're talking about a forty-five minute spread between when they're going into the house versus when this event supposedly happened over at Devil's Den. I mean, the question is, and maybe that's something I could ask Jason at some point. I mean, it how good is his memory? Was he out there for 45 minutes? It's entirely possible the girls or wouldn't even say the girls, I would say, you know, yeah, you got three teenage boys running around out there, junior high age. It's possible the girls passed him. And they didn't even notice them. Right? I mean, when I was thirteen, fourteen, if a ten year old girl was walking by, I would pay no mind. They wouldn't even show up on my radar. The only really specific thing is like they talked about what the what one the one white male was wearing. Did you happen to ask Jason about that? Like 'cause he says Kent wasn't there. He doesn't remember Kent being there. Did you happen to ask him if you remembered what Billy was wearing? No, but he he probably wouldn't remember, right? He did say something that was very reminiscent of nineteen ninety-three, which he said there was a lot of skater culture going on at the time. And when you look at the description that is given by Ken Williams, it sounds like a skater. Interesting. 'Cause there's nothing really else in Carlos's notes either. It's all about the knife incident. Trying to figure out how they wait. So in the door to door notes, seven nineteen Wilson, Betty Martin It lists Sam Martin, White Male thirteen, Billy Sanderson, homesick from school, saw boys at approximately three PM, and then it says Carlos Seals, Billy Sanderson, Kent, Jason White, and then it says Carlos's cousin. So in the door to door notes, it says Jason is Carlos's cousin. How's that work? So somebody, one of the neighbors told everybody that Jason and Carlos were cousins and that's where this is coming from. So you're saying Betty Martin said that they were cousin. Right? I is that Sudbury's handwriting in your opinion? I don't think so. It doesn't look like his handwriting. I don't know whose handwriting this is. It doesn't s underneath like Betty's name up there. Does that say B S R S? Is that like A detective's initials or is that in reference to Billy Sanderson or what is what do think that means? Wait, where are you looking? At the top corner where it says Betty Martin. Seven three. It's the first three. No, it's seven three five. It's the first three numbers of the phone number. yeah, you're right. That's terrible handwriting. Might as well be Sudberry's. And then look below. So right below that it says Carlos Seals, Billy Sanderson, Kent, Jason White. And it says next to Jason White, Carlos cousin, apartment three twenty six Winberry. That's what I'm saying. it's in the door to door notes that Jason is Carlos's cousin, but he they're not cousins. Yeah. So somebody in the neighborhood told the police that it's been carrying and contaminating the reports. I think it probably came from the Martins. It looks like. Okay. Interesting. So it clearly we've seen it in two places now. Sudbury's report says they're cousins, and the door to door notes says they're cousins. So somebody got that wrong for sure. Yeah, so it probably the whole thing came from a mistake in the door to door note. No, it doesn't say anything. Okay, so the third, the third page of door to door notes under Carlos, at 808 Wilson, Carlos 13, black male paper route, two kids, Sam Martin, 13 looks 20, and Billy, gray van. Okay. Yeah. Okay. So that doesn't really tell us anything except apparently that Carlos had a paper route. back when you can do that. That's yeah. Do people still get newspapers? I don't even see people get papers on my road. I I don't remember the last time I saw a newspaper machine, like you know, like the vending like do those still exist? I don't think so, except in the big cities, maybe the near one at the gas station or the grocery store. Yeah. I don't think they have machines anymore. Anyway, that's neither here nor there. Sorry. bizarre. So it's interesting when I kind of went through this whole thing. He has a sharp memory of Ryan and leaving right when Ryan showed up and saying, Sorry, I can't really participate in this. One of the big epiphanies he had was if I had gone searching and had gone back into Robin Hood, I could have been one of those victims too, right? And I said, Yeah. for sure. That that definitely caught his attention. And I he said, So if we'd gone back there, we might have been victims right alongside him. And I said, That's definitely the potential for that. Yeah. Wow. Yeah, that's gotta be kind of sobering. Really. Especially if you had no idea really that you were involved in the c like that there are files on you and that people are talking about you. in the case, I mean, they've never been suspects to us. No, we actually see him as witnesses. but it's all really, really interesting. Like the the whole Kim and Don thing is like baffling to me. Like did I did they just see it incorrectly, like which house they went into? Because it doesn't sound like Carlos and his friends were the guys they saw. Cause I mean, Jason sounds credible, like he didn't see the girls, like that didn't happen. Yeah, Jason comes across as very credible. His memory is sharp. And I would say he's frustrated that his name is associated with this sighting at all and these events because of the the whatever. He's like, I've never did any drugs or gotten in any drinking or any of that other stuff, especially not at thirteen. And he goes, I would never come up to a bunch of girls and menace in that way. I mean, he didn't use that word, I'm kind of paraphrasing, but you know, he's like, That wasn't on our radar to do that. And he says, I was with Carlos that day. I remember Ryan coming up and asking for help and he has a very sharp memory of all this stuff and he goes, But the idea that we would come up to two girls and offer him a shot, he's like just he's like it didn't happen. So interesting. Well, I mean, there's nothing about that incident in Billy's report. He doesn't give any notes about where he was or what he was doing on the fifth. And of course there's no we don't have any documentation on Kent. So really all we have is Car what Carlos said, what Jason told you. And then what Kim and Dawn are reporting. I mean, the cousin thing is neither here nor there. I mean, I'm glad that I got cleared up, but and I mean, really whether like the whole shot incident, like i yeah, it seems weird and and creepy and I get that that would raise flags at the time of the murders, but in the scheme of things it it's not something that's really super important, right? It doesn't have any impact as far as I can tell on anything that we've done. it turns out that this was a lead that the police were pursuing. this is Sudbury, right? So Sudbury has heard from numerous people that there were people engaged in Satanism out in Robin Hood. Here's this notice of a knife or this tip of a knife, and they are gonna go out there and investigate this. And this is what's really interesting is we have in the files, we I don't think we talked about it in the podcast. But on May the ninth, Sudbury comes out there after the eighth when he was talking about how honest and truthful he felt that Carlos was. The next day he's out there interrogating Carlos and he certainly doesn't look truthful anymore. And the implication was that we had, or the note that we had was that there was somebody had called one of these four teens, had called the police and said, Hey, there's our knife is out there. I just want to let you know, and we don't want to get in trouble for it. And our hunch was that it was Kent. So Jason confirmed it. He said, Yeah, Kent called the police and he's the one that told on us that there was a broken knife out there. Wow. Yeah, so Kent Kent's not their favorite person, probably. But it's good because they all got cleared, right? They didn't have anything to do with it. It went away. The police got the knife. It had nothing to do with the crime. So it clears them all. But I can understand they they'd be like mad about Kent. Reporting all of them to the police. Well, he didn't say anything about that specifically. I think he was just more frustrated over somebody saying that they the idea that there was this little girl that's the older sister of one of the victims and sure. We went out and we and he's like, No, we didn't do that. That's not us. So, like I said, he was a really nice guy and he was very credible and he's he's like, that's either somebody else or they're making it up. but it wasn't us. We didn't do that. We wouldn't have done something like that. We were just thirteen year old kids ourselves. And he said we weren't even really in Robin Hood that day. we were out there on Goodwin, along the street. he doesn't dispute being out there. Right. He's just saying we weren't out in the back by the bayou or running around up on the hills or something like that. he's basically saying, These girls saying that we came out of Robin Hood, out of Devil's Den. He's like, That's it just doesn't describe what we were doing that day. My memory is not does not remember these little girls and having a shot or any of this other stuff. So he's he wanted to set that record straight. And so either somebody's having an innocent misrecollection or somebody invented the story and put it out there. I'm not saying that Don made it up and put it out there, but Jason's saying it i it's not us. You're it's not us that this happened. I am wondering if it's like a completely I mean it sounds like it's a completely different group of guys. I don't remember what does Ryan ever say what time he went out and asked his friends to help him look? After eight thirty. Huh? After eight thirty. But Carlos is saying this is like after school on Wednesday afternoon. Yeah, so to that point, Ryan When he actually goes through his search, official search, he really only talks about the fact that he was going around with his parents. He's just speaks generally. He doesn't split hairs and say I was going here and here and here and here. He just says I was just with split up and go look through the neighborhood asking people if they've seen Christopher. Like we all n we know that happens. That happens at eight thirty. But when he's with it, so at this time he's Mark has actually told people that he went straight to Carlos's house because car because apparently And Jason White verifies this. He said that it was pretty normal for Chris to go and play video games with Carlos. Yeah. That was a normal thing. Yeah. And so it wasn't unreasonable for them to come looking over at at Carlos's house for Chris. And that was and that was when Ryan got out and talked to them and said, I'm looking for my brother. And then Ryan got in the car and then they left. He left with his family and then Jason then moved. Well, so what I'm getting at is if Carlos is just playing loose with the time because it says this was Wednesday afternoon, five five ninety-three after school. Well afternoon is subjective to people, right? After school we know it's after three o'clock sometime. That's all we know in particular. So if if it's closer to eight o'clock, closer to sunset, but Kim and Dawn are saying they saw three boys out there five thirty to six. That wouldn't be these boys. That's what that's what I'm trying to get at. It's like what time were they actually there? At 620, about six twenty, because Mark said the first place he went when he came home and was looking for Chris is he went straight to Carlos's. So we know that happened between about six fifteen to six twenty. So he then heads straight over to Carlos's. It makes sense because Carlos. And he sees the boys outside. Yeah, and he talks to Well, so even still, if Kim and Don are saying it happened, their times can be off too. But if they're saying it happened between five thirty and six, it could be a different group of boys. Yeah, that's the point that Jason's making is it's either somebody else or it didn't happen. But what he's saying is it's certainly not us. Plus, the Carlos and company didn't see Stevie and Michael or their bicycles. He said they didn't see their bicycles, he didn't see the victims, and he didn't see any of them. Well, so that would make sense. They're there after Stevie and Michael have already gone and hooked up with Chris. Mm-hmm. That's what he's saying. I think Jason's on to something. Well, I'm glad he reached out because now we know it wasn't them. and it is a mi I don't I don't like these I don't like these mysteries we can't solve. and maybe we will still solve it, but I mean, right now we don't really have anything else to go on, like another group of kids. it like we said, it doesn't really matter in the scheme of things as far as investigation, but I like the details. I like to know what happened. Well, the fundamental detail with respect to Don and Kim is that they went to go and get Stevie and Michael out of Devil's Den, right? Right. We're not disputing that that happened. The dispute is whether or not this is Jason and Carlos that did this. Well, they don't say it was them. That's the implication based on all of the statements. Yeah, they're saying the fourth house on the left, which is Carlos's house that they all went into, and it meets the time and all the other stuff. So these girls were out there. They probably saw these kids go in there and they said, it's them, and they misidentified them, right? But it's wrong, right? How often does that happen where you you think it's somebody and it's not who you think it is? Right. So they then report that to the police. And so Carlos is gonna get questioned about it. But it doesn't change the fact that Don and Kim refuse to go into Devil's Den to look for Michael and Stevie because Some teens came out and maybe did offer them a shot or they said something needles or whatever scared them somehow. It just wasn't Carlos and his friends that did it. Right. Well, that's cool. we cle he cleared up the co so was that mainly the things he was concerned. Like, I mean, the cousin thing doesn't matter really one way or the other, but that was the main thing. You just wanted everybody to know like they weren't the ones that talked to Kim and Don. That was these. Okay. Yeah. He says it was not Carlos and not Jason. He says it's not us. It wasn't us. We didn't do that. He said Carlos and I would never have said something like that to a couple little girls. He's not saying that Carlos doesn't have a kind of a spontaneous side to him and would, can say some stuff off the cuff, but he goes that we would not have done that. That would be completely out of our nature. Yeah. I mean, I don't really see them probably talking to two little girls anyway. No. And remember, only one little girl said it. The other Kim didn't say it. Dawn said. That's true. Kim said Dawn told her. That's right. And Dawn has verified that the event happened. She's given interviews and she did a podcast about ten years ago where she talked about that. So Right. Yeah. So Well, and she claims that when she went home, she told her mom what happened and said we gotta go get Michael. Mm-hmm. But they didn't. According to her. So she definitely that's she's been tell she's telling the same story she told back then. her story's her story's consistent too. And this is the first time Jason ever realized he said he knew that there were files about them and they were generally aware that there was something going on. But he said it never dawned on him that they were suspects, even for a short period of time. And I said, Yeah, you were being interviewed by James Sudbury, who's the guy that the next day yeah, he's the absolutely the wrong guy you want to be interviewing with because he's the one that went after the other ones. Well, and really, In all the I know you've listened to more coverage on the case and probably read more books than I have, but like people don't talk about them. I mean, you hear Carlos's name in some places, but not the others. Like nobody talks about them and like any connection to the case. So it's it's probably a little disconcerting to hear your name on a podcast about, you know, a triple homicide. Yeah, our opinion It hasn't ch my opinion hasn't changed at all. If anything, it cements it more that Carlos and Jason and unfortunately Kent's not with them, but Billy Sanderson are all witnesses. Yes. And they're they're an important witness to where the boys aren't, right? They're out there searching at six twenty. The police theory, the official police theory at the time of the trials was that the boys were out there playing from six o'clock until six forty-five, six thirty, something depending on which trial you're talking about. And we're showing that no, there was a gap of time where they weren't at Devil's Den and these guys are showing that. So that doesn't change that. That makes them critical witnesses in my For sure. Yeah. I agree with you. eliminating people helps you get closer to who it might be, So now we know that group of boys isn't, you know, Carlos, Jason, Billy, and Kent. Yeah, and he also talked about the circle of friends. It's interesting. it was I I love hearing these stories about these guys because they all grew up together. They still know each other and about the fact that Carlos Seals and Brit Smith shared a fence, right? Showing how how close how close they are as teens, right? They're all friends and they share a fence, which you know means things were happening, you know, whatever was going on. Yeah. but yeah, he was name dropping a lot of people that we've gotten to know that are just great people. good friends of ours like Jamie Clark, who is now Jamie Clark Ballard, but he's just had nothing but glowing things to say about her. And he's friends with Nicholas too, right? Nicholas, yeah. Nicholas Almeida, who you've spoken to. And yeah, he was just dropping name after he knows the Gardners and just name after name after name. So he said that, you know, he's connected to him. He's friends with these guys and you know He just wanted people to know he didn't go out there and menace these little girls that day. And he didn't see the victims that day. He just he was out there with his friends playing and Ryan came up to him and said, I can't find my brother. Can you help me? And he I I wish I could, but I gotta go or I'm gonna get in big trouble. He's like a thirteen or fourteen year old kid, be getting home on time is the most important thing to you. That's exactly what he was doing. Yeah. Hmm. And you said he'd only met Christopher once. Is that what you said? Yeah, I texted him after our phone call and asked him, if he'd seen the I think I took something along the lines of have you did you ever see the boys that day? And he says, Yeah, you did ask me that during the thing earlier, and he goes, I've only seen Chris once, but it wasn't that day. And I I didn't see any of the victims that day. Well, he was new to the area too, right? Yeah. So he probably hadn't been around enough to see Christopher a lot. Yeah, he had northwestern routes up in the I think the Seattle area. I can't remember where he said he was from, but I want to say the Seattle area. I saw that, yeah. I saw that on his subject description, I think. Might have been he might have told me Tacoma, but Seattle comes to mind. Yeah, it's on here somewhere. Not that not that that matters either. Let me see. Well, it just shows he's from a different part of the world. He introduces a whole different element to it. says his mom's in Seattle, Washington. In nineteen ninety three. Yeah, that makes sense. Yeah. That jives with what he told me. Interesting. Okay. Well, I'm glad you guys had that phone call and I hope I hope you put to rest any fears he might have like he's totally a witness and not a suspect and we never thought he was a suspect. No, he was a great guy. I mean, he was really it was really good to talk to him. It was fun. He's got a lot of interesting side stories too. I mean, you could tell he could just talk all day about that group of guys out there and he's got great stories about all of them. Isn't that interesting though? Like I don't know if we've ever contacted anybody who just, told us to get lost or wasn't really nice. So far, everybody that we've talked to has been really nice. Yeah. So we've been treated great by people out there. I mean, if somebody doesn't want to talk about the case, they generally will respectfully say, I'm I'm sorry, I just you know, I can't get involved. It's too f emotionally difficult or it's too this or it's too that. But they never tell us to get lost or whatever. They understand we're coming from a good place. by the way, Jason said the same thing. He said, You guys are obviously coming at it from the right angle. You guys are trying to do a good thing and he supports what we're doing. Yeah. Yeah, the only the the few cops I've reached out to I I don't get a they don't they don't say get lost, they just say, you know, please direct all questions to Gary Gitchell. And I go, Yeah, that's not gonna happen, but okay. Gary Gitchell's hiding. We're not talking to you. Yeah. okay, well cool. D direct all questions to Gary Gitchell, all aka the guy that nobody has seen in forty years. Yeah, I'm gonna pass. He's been retired since nineteen ninety-four. Yeah. So that's it. Yeah, it was a good call. And you know, I I'm glad I'm glad we did it. We got it all worked out. Awesome.