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ICE at TSA, Device Searches, and Your Rights as a Traveller · This Week On ICE

0:07
SPEAKER_03: Hey sir, are you TSA?
0:09
SPEAKER_03: Uh, I'm an independent journalist reporting on the government shutdown.
0:12
SPEAKER_03: Is it okay if I ask you a few questions?
0:13
SPEAKER_03: It could be on background or if you... It's fine?
0:17
SPEAKER_03: You're cool with it?
0:17
SPEAKER_00: I work for TSA at JFK Airport, Terminal 5, so yeah.
0:20
SPEAKER_03: Wow, okay.
0:21
SPEAKER_03: How long have you been working for TSA?
0:22
SPEAKER_00: I've been working about two, three years now.
0:25
SPEAKER_03: And I know at least at this particular airport,
0:28
SPEAKER_03: like,
0:28
SPEAKER_03: 33% of TSA agents have,
0:30
SPEAKER_03: like,
0:31
SPEAKER_03: called out,
0:31
SPEAKER_00: basically.
0:32
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
0:32
SPEAKER_03: So what's it been like?
0:33
SPEAKER_03: What's been the strain?
0:34
SPEAKER_00: It's really just us not getting paid.
0:37
SPEAKER_00: And a lot of people have kids.
0:39
SPEAKER_00: They got a family to take care of and all of that.
0:42
SPEAKER_00: And so it's like us not getting paid.
0:45
SPEAKER_00: That right there is just crazy, so, yeah.
0:48
SPEAKER_03: I know ICE has been deployed here.
0:50
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
0:51
SPEAKER_03: Have they been interacting with you?
0:52
SPEAKER_00: No, I mean, they're in groups right now.
0:55
SPEAKER_00: They're inside in groups.
0:56
SPEAKER_00: They're, like, just doing their thing, I guess.
0:58
SPEAKER_00: I don't know.
0:59
SPEAKER_03: Have they been interacting with you at all?
1:00
SPEAKER_00: They haven't said a word to me.
1:02
SPEAKER_03: Have they been helping at all or just kind of standing there?
1:03
SPEAKER_00: From what I see, they're just standing there.
1:05
SPEAKER_03: They're just standing there?
1:06
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
1:06
SPEAKER_03: All right.
1:07
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
1:12
SPEAKER_01: Hello and welcome to This Week on ICE for March 27, 2026.
1:15
SPEAKER_01: I'm Matthew Kendrick.
1:17
SPEAKER_02: And I'm Kelly Kimball.
1:19
SPEAKER_01: And that sound you just heard was Kelly reporting from John F.
1:23
SPEAKER_01: Kennedy International Airport in New York on Monday,
1:26
which was the first day that immigration officers were deployed
1:29
to 14 different
1:30
airports in major cities across the United States as the
1:33
partial government
1:34
SPEAKER_01: shutdown rolls past its one month anniversary.
1:37
SPEAKER_01: In the wee hours of Friday morning,
1:39
the Senate passed a bill that would fund the Department of
1:42
Homeland Security,
1:43
SPEAKER_01: including TSA,
1:45
SPEAKER_01: without providing additional money for ICE.
1:48
SPEAKER_01: At time of recording,
1:49
SPEAKER_01: the House has not yet voted on the measure,
1:52
nor is it clear whether ICE will leave airports after funding
1:55
for TSA is restored.
1:57
SPEAKER_02: And after the break,
1:58
SPEAKER_02: Matt and I surveyed our followers on Instagram,
2:00
SPEAKER_02: asking them to send us their burning questions about ice.
2:03
You guys came up with questions that really demand some complex
2:06
and nuanced answers.
2:07
SPEAKER_02: Matt and I will take turns answering each of them.
2:10
SPEAKER_02: We've got a lot to cover, so let's get into it.
2:21
SPEAKER_01: All right,
2:21
SPEAKER_01: so Kelly,
2:22
SPEAKER_01: you reported from JFK on Monday,
2:24
SPEAKER_01: and as if that airport could get any worse,
2:27
SPEAKER_01: it has become one of the airports that ICE agents deployed by the Trump
2:32
SPEAKER_01: administration have arrived to support,
2:35
SPEAKER_01: quote unquote,
2:36
SPEAKER_01: TSA operations.
2:38
SPEAKER_01: And in a post on Truth Social on Wednesday,
2:41
President Trump floated the idea of sending National Guard to
2:44
airports to assist
2:45
SPEAKER_01: TSA as well.
2:46
SPEAKER_01: But what did you see?
2:48
SPEAKER_01: Remind us, why are ICE agents at airports to begin with?
2:51
let me take that second question first just to bring everyone
2:54
back to back to the
2:55
beginning this all started when congress failed to agree on a
2:59
department of
2:59
homeland security budget so about a month ago these
3:02
disagreements led to a
3:03
stalemate at congress which led to a partial government
3:06
shutdown of of many
3:07
agencies under dhs that budget disagreement really fell along
3:12
party lines so
3:13
SPEAKER_02: republicans wanted the government to
3:15
SPEAKER_02: approve additional funding for ICE, which falls under DHS.
3:19
But ICE already got that $75 billion from the One Big Beautiful
3:23
bill,
3:23
right?
3:24
SPEAKER_02: So obviously, Democrats refused to pass this budget agreement.
3:28
SPEAKER_02: And they also demanded significant reforms to rein in ICE tactics,
3:32
SPEAKER_02: like having them wear body cams,
3:34
SPEAKER_02: having them not wear face masks.
3:36
Having them use a judicial warrant instead of a less strict
3:40
administrative warrant
3:41
SPEAKER_02: to make arrests.
3:42
SPEAKER_02: We've talked about all this in previous episodes.
3:44
SPEAKER_02: So let's fast forward to today.
3:46
TSA falls under DHS and it's getting absolutely screwed at
3:50
airports nationally
3:52
SPEAKER_02: because since at least February 14th,
3:54
SPEAKER_02: these 47,000 TSA agents have not gotten a full paycheck.
3:59
This has led to hundreds of TSA workers quitting,
4:02
many calling out of work.
4:04
Major airports are absolutely insane right now with wait times
4:07
as high as four
4:08
SPEAKER_02: hours at the Houston International Airport.
4:11
SPEAKER_02: Airports are being bottlenecked with flight cancellations and delays.
4:15
There are some airports that are even experiencing understaffed
4:17
air traffic control towers.
4:20
SPEAKER_02: So Trump did what he does best and kind of so chaos into all of this.
4:25
SPEAKER_02: The U.S.
4:25
Trump administration basically said we're going to send agents
4:27
to assist with some
4:29
SPEAKER_02: of the busiest and most bottlenecked airports across the country.
4:32
SPEAKER_01: So the TSA agents aren't getting paid.
4:35
SPEAKER_01: They're calling out at high rates leading to these big delays.
4:38
Is there anything to the theory of the case that ICE is
4:40
actually alleviating?
4:41
SPEAKER_01: What did you see?
4:43
What I saw was groups of ICE officers kind of scrolling on
4:46
their phone and doing
4:47
SPEAKER_02: absolutely nothing,
4:48
SPEAKER_02: not even making eye contact with people,
4:50
SPEAKER_02: not talking to TSA.
4:52
SPEAKER_02: The gentleman at the top of the call really underscored what I saw too,
4:55
is that they're not really interacting with anyone or doing
4:58
much of anything.
4:59
SPEAKER_02: They kind of blankly stared at me as I took photos of them.
5:03
SPEAKER_02: And if we remember,
5:04
there was a congressional hearing with an ICE whistleblower
5:07
about a month ago,
5:08
SPEAKER_02: this man named Ryan Schwenk.
5:10
He said himself that ICE's training program is,
5:12
quote,
5:13
deficient,
5:13
defective,
5:14
and broken.
5:15
SPEAKER_02: During that whistleblower hearing,
5:17
he claimed that new recruits are actually trained to violate
5:20
the Fourth Amendment
5:21
and that essential safety and legal training hours are slashed
5:24
to increase
5:25
SPEAKER_02: violence.
5:26
officer production so if we can't even assume a certain level
5:30
of training just to
5:31
be ice officers we can't really assume that ice officers can
5:35
then have the
5:35
SPEAKER_02: appropriate training or awareness to be tsa agents
5:39
I was reading it takes eight months on average for TSA to pass
5:42
their training programs.
5:43
SPEAKER_01: And to your point, no, right?
5:45
SPEAKER_01: Like it's a long thing.
5:47
SPEAKER_01: And these guys don't get paid well to begin with.
5:49
One single 30 second span that I experienced at JFK Terminal 5
5:54
really kind of
5:55
underscored a much bigger bird's eye view story that I don't
5:58
think enough people
5:59
SPEAKER_02: are really talking about.
6:01
I saw a group of young Americans kind of giving these death
6:04
glares to a group of
6:05
SPEAKER_02: ICE agents and then walking away.
6:07
SPEAKER_02: And then a few moments later,
6:08
there was an older gentleman that walked up to this group and
6:11
literally with like
6:12
hands in a prayer position was just thanking them profusely for
6:16
being there and
6:16
SPEAKER_02: saying,
6:17
SPEAKER_02: I'm so glad you guys are here.
6:19
SPEAKER_02: You guys are doing an amazing job.
6:20
SPEAKER_02: You guys are heroes.
6:21
SPEAKER_02: Thank you for your service.
6:24
SPEAKER_02: And that was really surprising for me,
6:26
SPEAKER_02: but it also underscored something that I,
6:29
SPEAKER_02: I think is abundantly clear is that when it comes to ICE,
6:32
SPEAKER_02: there are at least two distinct Americas.
6:35
There's one America that sees ICE as an extension of a police
6:38
state where,
6:40
SPEAKER_02: you know,
6:40
SPEAKER_02: it's,
6:41
it's an entity that is knowingly breaking laws and
6:43
destabilizing norms that
6:45
SPEAKER_02: challenge
6:46
the basic human rights and dignities of anyone who chooses to
6:48
be in this country
6:50
SPEAKER_02: regardless of their current citizenship status.
6:52
SPEAKER_02: And then there's the other America.
6:54
That is the America that sees ICE as defending their safety and
6:58
their opportunities
6:59
SPEAKER_02: from dangerous criminal outsiders.
7:01
SPEAKER_02: And I saw that pretty much point blank.
7:04
I think the reason why this particular news flashpoint on ICE
7:07
is being absolutely
7:09
SPEAKER_02: proliferated in broadcast news and legacy media and social media is that
7:14
the fact of the matter is that it fits neatly along like
7:16
partisan narratives.
7:18
SPEAKER_02: You know,
7:18
SPEAKER_02: on one hand,
7:19
SPEAKER_02: conservative media can use the same imagery,
7:21
SPEAKER_02: the same photos of ICE helping TSA,
7:24
SPEAKER_02: the same soundbites and say,
7:26
SPEAKER_02: look at what Democrats did.
7:28
Look at what Democrats did to TSA agents and to Americans and
7:31
to airports.
7:32
The same material can be used in progressive media to basically
7:36
say that ICE's
7:37
SPEAKER_02: inaction and ICE being called in to help TSA is gluttonous and,
7:41
SPEAKER_02: and,
7:42
ignorant of the actual problems and the real budgetary
7:46
constraints that we need to discuss.
7:48
SPEAKER_02: But really, neither of these stories is what I consider the real story.
7:51
SPEAKER_02: The real problem is that there's a deep systemic issue with how
7:54
SPEAKER_02: Congress decides or disagrees.
7:56
When they disagree,
7:57
the government shuts down and then real lives are put at risk.
8:01
And meanwhile,
8:02
as of Friday,
8:03
if they don't agree on a budget,
8:05
they have a two week long recess.
8:08
SPEAKER_02: And so they're just going to leave this baking for two weeks.
8:12
SPEAKER_02: They can have multiple government shutdowns in the same year without much
8:15
SPEAKER_02: consequence to them as members of Congress.
8:17
And so even then,
8:19
the same government shutdown that is supposed to resolve issues
8:23
SPEAKER_02: can also be politically weaponized to further specific partisan goals.
8:27
SPEAKER_01: I also wanted to ask,
8:28
SPEAKER_01: as a reporter,
8:29
SPEAKER_01: as a practitioner of the First Amendment,
8:31
SPEAKER_01: what was it like taking photos and reporting at JFK?
8:35
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
8:35
So I actually started being a photojournalist the summer after
8:41
the murder of George
8:42
SPEAKER_02: Floyd during the pandemic.
8:44
And that was also at a time of heightened tension between law
8:49
enforcement and citizens.
8:51
And so with that in mind,
8:52
this felt like the summer after George Floyd all over again.
8:56
SPEAKER_02: I teach media law ethics and safety
8:59
SPEAKER_02: at a journalism graduate school here in New York city.
9:02
SPEAKER_02: And I did everything that I taught my students to do.
9:05
SPEAKER_02: I shared my location with trusted friends and family.
9:08
SPEAKER_02: I deleted my social media messaging apps when I was at the airport.
9:12
SPEAKER_02: I brought my passport with me in case I was questioned.
9:16
I even wrote down on my arm a phone number for a legal hotline
9:21
specifically for
9:22
SPEAKER_02: independent journalists.
9:23
SPEAKER_02: So that if for whatever reason I was detained,
9:27
SPEAKER_02: I could have a phone number to call to get legal support.
9:30
SPEAKER_02: I do all of this not because I need to,
9:33
but because if ICE is going to continue to knowingly or maybe
9:38
even unknowingly
9:39
break the law or destabilize norms that protect people in their
9:43
First Amendment
9:44
SPEAKER_02: right to document,
9:46
SPEAKER_02: I want to be prepared so that none of that risk actually falls on me.
9:49
SPEAKER_02: I can continue to defend myself legally and scaffold myself legally
9:54
as a journalist doing my job and trying to defend the rights of
9:59
other citizens in
10:00
SPEAKER_02: this country,
10:01
SPEAKER_02: basically.
10:02
SPEAKER_02: So ultimately, the day was really benign.
10:06
SPEAKER_02: I mean, I took photos.
10:07
SPEAKER_02: One ICE agent actually smiled at me once he saw my camera.
10:11
SPEAKER_02: It was really strange.
10:13
SPEAKER_02: But I wanted to really hold in my mind the worst case scenario
10:18
SPEAKER_02: of what these ICE agents are capable of.
10:20
SPEAKER_02: They're inherently part of a cruel institution.
10:23
And I take very seriously the imminent threat that could happen
10:27
to anyone,
10:27
even me as a US citizen with many privileges that I am
10:31
knowingly aware of.
10:32
SPEAKER_02: And that was all kind of at top of mind as I was at the airport that day.
10:36
know and i just want to say for for people who might be
10:40
traveling who are worried
10:41
about traveling in the current situation some of the techniques
10:44
that that you kelly
10:45
practiced when you were going to the airport like for example
10:49
kelly and i had a had
10:50
a or agreement that you know i knew when she was going she was
10:53
going to text me
10:53
when she was back we knew how long that was supposed to take
10:56
and if i hadn't heard
10:57
SPEAKER_01: from kelly then
10:58
SPEAKER_01: I could start looking for her.
11:00
SPEAKER_01: I could start making inquiries.
11:01
SPEAKER_01: And if the worst had happened, we would be able to respond quickly.
11:05
So telling the people that you're traveling with or who you're
11:08
going to visit or
11:08
SPEAKER_01: who you're expecting to stay with when you arrive,
11:11
SPEAKER_01: your travel plans,
11:12
SPEAKER_01: keeping them in the loop as it goes on.
11:14
SPEAKER_01: Very,
11:14
SPEAKER_01: very good ideas,
11:16
SPEAKER_01: as well as having a emergency contact,
11:19
SPEAKER_01: whether that's your lawyer,
11:20
SPEAKER_01: which not all of us have lawyers,
11:23
SPEAKER_01: who has a lawyer on retainer,
11:24
SPEAKER_01: but legal services that you might want to use or
11:27
SPEAKER_01: next of kin and having that not on your phone,
11:31
SPEAKER_01: but either memorizing or having it written physically somewhere,
11:34
SPEAKER_01: both very good ideas in this environment.
11:37
So it's a scary kind of thing to have to be advising people who
11:41
just want to go see
11:42
grandma in Phoenix that they should write down the lawyer's
11:45
number on their arm,
11:46
SPEAKER_01: but not the worst idea in the current environment.
11:49
SPEAKER_02: Absolutely.
11:50
SPEAKER_02: Well, thank you for that, Matt.
11:52
SPEAKER_02: Okay,
11:52
we're going to take a little break and be right back to answer
11:55
listeners' burning
11:55
SPEAKER_02: questions about ICE at airports,
11:57
SPEAKER_02: ICE deportations,
11:59
SPEAKER_02: U.S.
11:59
SPEAKER_02: citizens, and what they can do as allies, and much more.
12:02
SPEAKER_02: Stick with us.
12:06
SPEAKER_01: Hey folks, Matt here.
12:08
SPEAKER_01: We are in the middle of this independent launch for our show.
12:12
And the number one thing you can do to help us is share this
12:16
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12:17
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12:23
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12:23
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12:27
that does so much to help us gain visibility and bring our
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SPEAKER_01: wider world.
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SPEAKER_01: So if you can, we would so appreciate having your support.
12:37
SPEAKER_01: Thanks for listening.
12:42
SPEAKER_02: Welcome back to This Week on Ice.
12:44
SPEAKER_02: For this segment, we have a rapid-fire Q&A from our listeners.
12:47
SPEAKER_02: Matt, why don't you go ahead and hit us with the first one.
12:51
SPEAKER_01: Sure.
12:51
SPEAKER_01: So one of our listeners asked,
12:53
SPEAKER_01: quote,
12:53
how true are reports of ice searching your phone or laptop for
12:57
anti-Trump content
12:59
SPEAKER_01: at TSA?
13:00
It really depends on whether you're traveling domestically
13:04
within the United States
13:05
SPEAKER_01: or arriving at a US airport from overseas.
13:08
SPEAKER_01: So if you're just flying from like New York to San Francisco,
13:12
SPEAKER_01: ICE has no enumerated right to search your electronic devices.
13:16
SPEAKER_01: You have a Fourth Amendment right against search and seizure,
13:19
SPEAKER_01: and that applies regardless of your legal status in the country.
13:22
SPEAKER_01: That being said,
13:24
I would not advise people without legal status or even with
13:27
temporary legal status
13:29
SPEAKER_01: to travel presently,
13:30
given ICE's crackdown on people who have been told that they
13:35
have a right to be in
13:35
SPEAKER_01: this country,
13:36
SPEAKER_01: even if they're not U.S.
13:37
SPEAKER_01: citizens.
13:38
So the net net there is that I have not seen I've not been able
13:42
to find any
13:42
documented reports of travelers turning up at a TSA line and
13:46
having ICE seize their
13:47
devices and search their devices and prevent them from
13:50
continuing on in their
13:51
SPEAKER_01: journey.
13:52
SPEAKER_01: That really changes if you're flying in from overseas.
13:55
SPEAKER_01: In that case, you're considered to be at a US border at the airport.
14:00
SPEAKER_01: And there's a special exception to the Fourth Amendment called the Border
14:03
SPEAKER_01: Exception,
14:04
SPEAKER_01: which allows federal agents to make warrantless searches of your person,
14:10
SPEAKER_01: your luggage,
14:11
SPEAKER_01: and your electronic devices.
14:13
SPEAKER_01: So that means,
14:14
SPEAKER_01: yeah,
14:15
SPEAKER_01: they can go through your luggage,
14:16
SPEAKER_01: they can see what you got there,
14:17
SPEAKER_01: they can go through your devices,
14:18
SPEAKER_01: see what you've been saying,
14:19
SPEAKER_01: see what you've been downloading,
14:20
SPEAKER_01: et cetera.
14:21
SPEAKER_01: Courts have held that these searches must be basic,
14:24
SPEAKER_01: meaning that essentially like you hand your phone to a customs and border
14:28
SPEAKER_01: protection agent,
14:29
SPEAKER_01: they open it up,
14:31
SPEAKER_01: whether that's by showing you,
14:34
SPEAKER_01: by using your face for face ID or asking you for the password,
14:37
SPEAKER_01: and then they thumb through it,
14:38
SPEAKER_01: see what you've been messaging about.
14:40
SPEAKER_01: They don't need a warrant for that,
14:42
What they do need a warrant for would be to plug your phone
14:45
into something like a
14:46
SPEAKER_01: Pegasus device,
14:48
which would then search through all of your data forensically
14:51
and see who you've
14:52
SPEAKER_01: been communicating with,
14:53
SPEAKER_01: even if it's been deleted,
14:54
SPEAKER_01: what websites you've been accessing,
14:56
SPEAKER_01: your location data.
14:57
SPEAKER_01: All of that requires a warrant, which they might be able to get.
15:01
SPEAKER_01: So that could happen to you.
15:03
And all of this means that dozens of people over the last year
15:08
have been denied
15:09
entry to the United States for what they claim are just having
15:12
anti-Trump messages
15:12
SPEAKER_01: on their phone.
15:13
SPEAKER_01: There was a famous case,
15:15
SPEAKER_01: probably the one that got the most publicity,
15:16
SPEAKER_01: a very prominent French researcher was coming to the United States for a
15:20
SPEAKER_01: conference.
15:21
And he had been messaging privately with colleagues about his
15:26
opinions on the Trump
15:26
SPEAKER_01: administration,
15:27
SPEAKER_01: which both in France and the United States,
15:29
SPEAKER_01: you're allowed to do.
15:30
SPEAKER_01: We both have free speech in those countries.
15:32
SPEAKER_01: And he was not allowed to enter the US because of these messages.
15:36
SPEAKER_01: What can you do about this?
15:38
first of all if you're if you are really really worried about
15:41
it if you're you know
15:42
an activist who's like actively campaigning against the trump
15:45
administration leave
15:47
your devices at home when you go abroad use travel burners
15:51
basically throw those
15:52
SPEAKER_01: out and then come back without anything then they can't search it
15:56
SPEAKER_01: If you're not that and you're not on that level,
15:59
SPEAKER_01: you should turn off Touch ID and Face ID to open your phone.
16:02
SPEAKER_01: So if you have an iPhone and you just show it at your face,
16:05
SPEAKER_01: that's how a federal agent might be able to start accessing your device.
16:09
SPEAKER_01: Turn that off.
16:10
SPEAKER_01: Same thing with Touch ID with your fingerprint.
16:12
SPEAKER_01: Turn that off.
16:12
you can be asked for your password but you have a right to
16:15
remain silent so you
16:16
don't have to give them your password even if they say oh we
16:18
have this warrant blah
16:19
blah blah okay go ahead and crack into my phone then a warrant
16:22
a warrant allows you
16:23
to use you know basically hacking techniques to try and get
16:25
into my phone i don't
16:26
SPEAKER_01: have to give you my password so
16:28
SPEAKER_01: And so that's another thing.
16:29
SPEAKER_01: Exercise your right to remain silent in any case.
16:32
SPEAKER_01: We'll talk a little bit more about that later.
16:34
SPEAKER_01: If you are caught unexpectedly,
16:36
SPEAKER_01: you didn't know that you were going to be asked for your phone,
16:39
you can on iPhones turn off your Touch ID and Face ID by
16:44
putting it in emergency
16:45
SPEAKER_01: mode.
16:45
SPEAKER_01: So that would be, for example, clicking
16:47
SPEAKER_01: The close phone button five times will put it in emergency mode.
16:52
SPEAKER_01: That means that it has to use a password to enter.
16:54
You can also simply turn off your phone quickly,
16:57
which would then disable touch ID and face ID.
17:00
SPEAKER_01: I can't say that that's true for all models of phone.
17:03
SPEAKER_01: I don't,
17:03
SPEAKER_01: I'm not as familiar with,
17:05
SPEAKER_01: you know,
17:05
SPEAKER_01: Google and Samsung and other Android phones,
17:08
SPEAKER_01: but it's a good idea to do that.
17:09
SPEAKER_01: So yeah, it's a real concern.
17:11
SPEAKER_01: Be careful when you're traveling, especially from back from overseas.
17:15
SPEAKER_01: If you've been messaging
17:16
SPEAKER_01: negative things about the Trump administration,
17:17
SPEAKER_01: it could cause you delays or denials of entry at the border.
17:24
SPEAKER_02: Lots of really helpful details there, Matt.
17:25
SPEAKER_02: Thank you so much.
17:27
SPEAKER_02: I'm going to go ahead and take the second question.
17:28
SPEAKER_02: Are ICE officers doing TSA job functions?
17:32
SPEAKER_02: So I kind of alluded to this already earlier in the call.
17:35
SPEAKER_02: So quick question, quick answer.
17:36
SPEAKER_02: The Trump administration has been
17:39
hitherto unclear about what specifically ICE agents are going
17:43
to do when it comes
17:44
SPEAKER_02: to helping TSA.
17:46
Although the border czar Tom Homan and acting ICE director Todd
17:50
Lyons are allegedly
17:52
SPEAKER_02: currently working on that plan,
17:54
SPEAKER_02: according to a report yesterday by CNN.
17:57
Homan also went on Fox News the other day and said that these
18:00
officers may check
18:01
SPEAKER_02: the IDs of people before they enter into screening areas,
18:06
SPEAKER_02: right?
18:07
SPEAKER_02: So
18:07
SPEAKER_02: That's what we know so far.
18:09
SPEAKER_02: Obviously, this is going to continue to bake as time goes on.
18:12
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, absolutely.
18:14
SPEAKER_01: Another listener asked, what can I do as a citizen to help?
18:19
SPEAKER_01: So this is I'm going to say off the top,
18:21
you're taking a risk if you're intervening or attempting to
18:24
document ICE arrests at
18:26
SPEAKER_01: an airport.
18:27
SPEAKER_01: That being said, airports are a public space.
18:30
You have every right to film and audio record ICE officers in a
18:33
public space in an airport.
18:35
SPEAKER_01: it's not the best idea for your travel plans.
18:37
SPEAKER_01: You could be delayed, you could be harassed, you might miss your flight.
18:42
SPEAKER_01: But if you do see someone being stopped by ICE, you can record them.
18:46
SPEAKER_01: Be very mindful to maintain a distance that is not interfering.
18:50
SPEAKER_01: Usually that's about three meters or 10 feet.
18:53
And courts have usually asserted that if an officer has to kind
18:56
of like take
18:57
SPEAKER_01: multiple steps towards you to stop you from recording,
19:01
SPEAKER_01: then that is a far enough distance
19:03
SPEAKER_01: that you're not interfering with their duties.
19:06
SPEAKER_01: You don't want this to get to court though, so just be careful.
19:09
SPEAKER_01: Step back if you're directed to step back by federal agents.
19:13
SPEAKER_01: Maintain calm.
19:14
SPEAKER_01: Don't insult anyone.
19:15
SPEAKER_01: Don't start yelling at anyone.
19:17
Don't make any aggressive movement or any provocative statement
19:20
that could lead to your arrest.
19:22
SPEAKER_01: ask the person being detained for their name,
19:25
ask the person being detained for a phone number that they
19:27
could use to contact a
19:28
SPEAKER_01: relative,
19:29
SPEAKER_01: if possible,
19:30
SPEAKER_01: or a lawyer,
19:31
SPEAKER_01: and advise them of their right to remain silent.
19:33
Tell them,
19:34
you don't have to say anything,
19:35
be quiet,
19:36
be quiet,
19:36
don't tell them anything.
19:38
um everyone has that right to remain silent but most
19:41
importantly if you're going to
19:42
do any good you have to be able to distribute this footage that
19:46
you're going to
19:47
collect so you have to protect yourself i've already described
19:49
some ways to do that
19:51
you should realize that the even though you have a legal right
19:53
to record it comes
19:55
with some risk to your personal security and to your to your
19:58
personal freedom and
19:59
so that will come to nothing that risk is not worth it if
20:02
you're unable to share
20:03
SPEAKER_01: that footage so once you have the footage don't immediately upload it
20:07
while you're still at the airport because you can be located
20:10
people might think
20:11
you're still at the airport everyone can see this footage go to
20:14
a secure area away
20:15
from federal agents ideally outside the airport then upload it
20:18
and i would also
20:19
contact local tv stations in your area reporters there are
20:23
dying for a story they
20:24
will be happy to to take a look at your footage send them the
20:28
footage as well
20:29
People might contact you on social media asking for the right
20:34
to use your footage.
20:35
SPEAKER_01: You can give them that right for free.
20:36
SPEAKER_01: You can ask for money.
20:38
SPEAKER_01: Depends how you feel about things.
20:39
If the idea is to distribute it widely,
20:41
distributing it for free is a good idea.
20:43
SPEAKER_01: So,
20:44
SPEAKER_01: you know,
20:44
SPEAKER_01: there are things you can do to help,
20:46
but realize that helping always comes at a cost and always
20:49
comes at a risk.
20:51
SPEAKER_01: And you have to make that decision on your own.
20:54
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, thank you for that, Matt.
20:55
SPEAKER_02: And,
20:56
SPEAKER_02: you know,
20:56
for listeners of this podcast who are specifically based in New
20:59
York City or those
21:00
SPEAKER_02: who are also in a major city,
21:02
SPEAKER_02: look into your local ICE hotline.
21:05
SPEAKER_02: So New York City has an ICE hotline so that if you see ICE,
21:08
you can snap a picture or a video and either call or text a
21:12
specific phone number.
21:14
SPEAKER_02: For New York City, it is 229-304-8720.
21:18
SPEAKER_02: You can text or call that hotline from 6 a.m.
21:21
SPEAKER_02: to 6 p.m.
21:22
But I am aware that representatives at the New York City ICE
21:25
hotline are trying to
21:26
SPEAKER_02: expand those hours.
21:27
SPEAKER_02: All right, let's go on to the next question.
21:30
Are black and brown people being pulled aside for additional
21:32
screening at higher rates?
21:33
So this may be conflated with what we already know to be
21:36
abundantly clear is that
21:38
SPEAKER_02: data,
21:38
SPEAKER_02: statistics,
21:39
history demonstrates that typically black and brown people do
21:43
tend to be pulled
21:44
SPEAKER_02: aside at airports much more often than those who are not black or brown.
21:48
SPEAKER_02: But right now, it is too soon to tell if that will be the case.
21:51
SPEAKER_02: I mean,
21:51
it's only been since Monday that hundreds of ICE agents have
21:55
been deployed to a
21:56
SPEAKER_02: minimum of 14 airports.
21:57
SPEAKER_02: Time will tell if that statistic that has already been proven from a data
22:01
SPEAKER_02: standpoint will continue to be underscored.
22:04
So it is your First Amendment right not to be asked about your
22:08
religious faith or
22:09
SPEAKER_02: your political leanings.
22:11
SPEAKER_02: So ICE agents can't ask you if you're a Democrat or
22:15
SPEAKER_02: or if you voted for Bernie Sanders,
22:17
SPEAKER_02: or if you're Muslim,
22:18
SPEAKER_02: or if you're Jewish,
22:19
SPEAKER_02: they can't do that.
22:20
And you could actually refuse to answer those questions and
22:23
even mention to them,
22:25
SPEAKER_02: it's my First Amendment right,
22:26
SPEAKER_02: that you can't make a judgment call based off of those identity markers.
22:31
SPEAKER_01: Another listener asked us, this feels a lot like the month before COVID.
22:36
SPEAKER_01: Will the gas crisis force us all to stay local very soon?
22:41
SPEAKER_01: Yeah,
22:41
SPEAKER_01: this question is a little funny to me because during the COVID crisis,
22:46
SPEAKER_01: I was in Malaysia for a wedding and I almost got trapped there.
22:49
SPEAKER_01: I'm about to go to another wedding in Asia, another two weddings in Asia.
22:52
SPEAKER_01: So I'll let you know if I get trapped.
22:54
SPEAKER_02: Tempting fate, Matt.
22:56
SPEAKER_02: Tempting fate.
22:57
SPEAKER_01: I really am.
22:57
SPEAKER_01: I really am.
22:59
SPEAKER_01: But the gas crisis and the Iran war are driving up travel costs.
23:02
SPEAKER_01: Deployment of ICE agents is compounding rather than alleviating travel
23:07
SPEAKER_01: interruptions at most airports.
23:09
It's certainly,
23:09
I would say,
23:10
intimidating a lot of people from going to the airport.
23:14
SPEAKER_01: And since we're no closer to resolving the funding crisis,
23:17
SPEAKER_01: as I talked about earlier,
23:19
SPEAKER_01: any sense of normalcy at an airport is quite far off.
23:22
SPEAKER_01: All of that being said,
23:23
let's look at the other major energy crisis we've had in the
23:27
last 50 years,
23:28
SPEAKER_01: which was the 1973 gas crisis.
23:31
SPEAKER_01: You know,
23:31
I think that someone should write a very good book about all
23:36
the ways that the 1973
23:37
SPEAKER_01: gas crisis changed the world.
23:39
SPEAKER_01: But even at the height of that,
23:41
SPEAKER_01: folks were still driving,
23:42
SPEAKER_01: they're still flying because everyone needs to work.
23:44
SPEAKER_01: And so that's like a big difference with COVID is that COVID
23:47
SPEAKER_01: We were prevented from being able to travel by the disease,
23:50
SPEAKER_01: by the lack of any immunity and lack of treatment for the virus.
23:56
I think that the current gas crisis and the deployment of ICE
24:00
agents to airports,
24:02
SPEAKER_01: while it might have a cooling effect,
24:04
I doubt that it will force everyone to stay in their homes or
24:08
stay just in their
24:09
SPEAKER_01: city.
24:10
SPEAKER_01: If you really want to, you can pony up the money and travel.
24:12
SPEAKER_02: All right.
24:12
SPEAKER_02: So we have one more question from one of our listeners.
24:15
SPEAKER_02: The question is, is it time to flee the country?
24:18
SPEAKER_02: How do you know?
24:19
SPEAKER_02: Matt, do you want to take that?
24:21
SPEAKER_01: Sure.
24:21
SPEAKER_01: Now, this is something I think about a lot.
24:23
SPEAKER_01: And some prominent scholars of fascism have already left the country.
24:27
SPEAKER_01: But the reason I think about it a lot is from my family background.
24:30
SPEAKER_01: So I wanted to tell you a little bit about that.
24:33
SPEAKER_01: My grandfather was born in Austria to a Jewish family in the early 1930s.
24:37
SPEAKER_01: I forget exactly what year he was born.
24:39
SPEAKER_01: I think 1930.
24:41
SPEAKER_01: And Austria at the time was,
24:44
SPEAKER_01: it still is a German-speaking country,
24:46
SPEAKER_01: but it was separate from Germany,
24:48
still to this day separate from Germany for some complex
24:50
historical reasons.
24:51
SPEAKER_01: And as the Nazi party came to power in Germany in 1933,
24:55
they immediately started talking about annexing Austria and
24:59
reuniting German
25:00
SPEAKER_01: speakers in Austria with this like greater Germany.
25:03
SPEAKER_01: This is actually a very old idea.
25:05
SPEAKER_01: It goes back to the 1870s, a concept called Anschluss.
25:09
and it was proposed after world war one because austria which
25:12
used to have this big
25:13
empire in eastern europe lost that empire and now it's you know
25:17
this tiny rump
25:18
state doesn't really have a lot of the things that it that
25:21
would need to be a
25:22
SPEAKER_01: self-sustaining country
25:24
And the 1920s and 30s were extremely disruptive in both Germany
25:28
and Austria.
25:30
SPEAKER_01: But to make a long story short,
25:32
SPEAKER_01: in 1937 and 1938,
25:32
SPEAKER_01: Nazi Germany started putting tons of pressure on Austria to join Germany.
25:40
And the Austrian leaders were aware that there was a small
25:44
minority of Austrian Nazis.
25:46
Let's not forget,
25:47
Hitler was Austrian and only became German in his 20s,
25:51
I believe.
25:52
Maybe he was like 25 years old after serving in World War I in
25:56
the German army.
26:00
SPEAKER_01: There was pressure, pressure, pressure.
26:02
The Austrian government attempted to hold a plebiscite to kind
26:05
of show that Austria
26:07
SPEAKER_01: did not want to be part of Germany.
26:09
SPEAKER_01: And the day before that plebiscite was meant to be held on March 13th,
26:13
SPEAKER_01: 1938,
26:14
SPEAKER_01: on March 12th,
26:15
the Nazi army marched into Austria and Austria knew it couldn't
26:19
win that war.
26:20
SPEAKER_01: And so the government ordered the Austrian army not to fight.
26:24
SPEAKER_01: And Nazis occupied Vienna, where my grandfather lived.
26:29
SPEAKER_01: He was six years old, I believe, when this happened.
26:32
SPEAKER_01: So that would make him born in 32, not 1930.
26:35
SPEAKER_01: And he told me a story once.
26:36
SPEAKER_01: He came home from school.
26:38
SPEAKER_01: The house was completely smashed up.
26:40
SPEAKER_01: He had this thing that stuck in his memory.
26:43
SPEAKER_01: He had a piggy bank where he'd been saving up money.
26:46
SPEAKER_01: And they'd even stolen the money out of his piggy bank and smashed it up.
26:50
SPEAKER_01: And his mom, my great-grandmother, was...
26:54
SPEAKER_01: you know, crying and upset.
26:55
But my great grandmother was a really astute woman and she'd
26:59
been planning for this
27:00
SPEAKER_01: eventuality for a long time.
27:02
SPEAKER_01: And so if I'm not mistaken, that very day they left.
27:07
SPEAKER_01: They got out of Vienna.
27:09
SPEAKER_01: They first took my grandfather to Yugoslavia.
27:12
SPEAKER_01: And they left him in a monastery with his younger brother in Yugoslavia.
27:18
And it was a horrible time for him because his mom then went to
27:22
France to try and
27:23
SPEAKER_01: get visas essentially for the children to come to France.
27:27
SPEAKER_01: But they were beaten in this monastery.
27:29
SPEAKER_01: They didn't understand the language being spoken.
27:32
and you know he was without his mom his whole world turned
27:35
upside down and then
27:36
eventually they make it to france and then of course in 1940
27:39
france starts losing
27:40
the war they have to flee france again and so he grew up his
27:43
whole life without
27:44
without any stable place to be without the kind of care and
27:49
empathy that any child
27:51
deserves and i think about that a lot i think about okay am i
27:55
am i on the verge of
27:56
SPEAKER_01: this
27:56
I have a lot of privileges because I'm,
27:59
you know,
27:59
a straight white male,
28:00
fairly high income.
28:01
SPEAKER_01: I live in Washington, D.C.
28:03
SPEAKER_01: in this nice city.
28:04
And,
28:05
you know,
28:05
to give up all of that would take a lot of events in my life.
28:09
SPEAKER_01: But then I read, you know,
28:12
some of the the letters of children who are being held in the
28:16
dilly detention
28:17
facility in texas who have no safe water to drink who are being
28:21
abused by guards
28:23
whose families are sacrificing everything to try and keep them
28:26
alive and i wonder
28:28
SPEAKER_01: if if
28:31
SPEAKER_01: my great-grandmother were still around, what would she say?
28:34
SPEAKER_01: And so I'm really lucky.
28:35
SPEAKER_01: I have an Austrian passport.
28:36
SPEAKER_01: I can go to anywhere in the European Union anytime I like,
28:41
SPEAKER_01: which would require tremendous sacrifices for me personally,
28:45
SPEAKER_01: but there's a safe haven for me and there's a plan.
28:49
SPEAKER_01: And so I guess that's kind of where I come down to.
28:51
SPEAKER_01: Is it time to flee the country?
28:53
SPEAKER_01: I can't make that decision for anyone.
28:55
I can't tell you that leaving the country would guarantee your
28:57
survival or wouldn't
28:59
SPEAKER_01: involve a lot of sacrifice.
29:01
SPEAKER_01: But it's good to have a plan.
29:02
SPEAKER_01: And so if you have access to another passport,
29:05
SPEAKER_01: you know,
29:06
SPEAKER_01: perhaps your family came from Brazil or Argentina,
29:10
SPEAKER_01: Italy,
29:11
SPEAKER_01: Spain,
29:11
SPEAKER_01: Portugal.
29:12
Many of these of these countries have pretty generous
29:15
facilities for allowing
29:17
descendants of migrants who left those countries to reclaim
29:20
that citizenship.
29:21
SPEAKER_01: It's a good idea to try and get access to that passport.
29:24
SPEAKER_01: If you have access to permanent residency in another country,
29:27
SPEAKER_01: good idea to try and maintain that.
29:29
SPEAKER_01: Most people won't have that.
29:31
So what you have to do is come up with a plan for what happens
29:35
if one of your
29:36
SPEAKER_01: family is detained.
29:37
SPEAKER_01: If you come home one day and police are searching your house,
29:40
SPEAKER_01: ICE agents are searching your house,
29:42
SPEAKER_01: it could involve,
29:43
SPEAKER_01: you know,
29:43
SPEAKER_01: who are we going to call?
29:44
SPEAKER_01: Where are we going to meet?
29:46
who can we trust creating a a circle of mutual aid and getting
29:50
involved in mutual
29:51
aid in your neighborhood is a great idea and if you have the
29:56
ability to transfer
29:58
certain financial assets out of the united states if that
30:00
wouldn't cause tremendous
30:02
difficulties to you it might not be the worst idea to do that
30:05
as well you know this
30:06
is not tax advice this is not financial advice the the the
30:10
short answer is that i
30:12
SPEAKER_01: don't know you have to make that decision for yourself
30:14
But we're certainly in a place that any functional humane
30:18
democracy should should
30:19
reject the kind of oppression that the federal government is
30:23
unleashing on its
30:23
SPEAKER_01: citizens currently.
30:24
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
30:26
And just,
30:26
you know,
30:27
Matt,
30:27
thank you,
30:27
first of all,
30:28
for sharing the story about your family.
30:29
It seems like your great grandmother did the absolute best that
30:32
she could and
30:33
SPEAKER_02: really acted quickly.
30:34
I will say it's better to be overprepared and never need to act
30:39
on what you've prepared.
30:41
than to realize the time has come and you're flat-footed and
30:44
you have nowhere to go
30:46
SPEAKER_02: and you don't know what to do.
30:48
SPEAKER_02: In the case of people maybe with heightened risk,
30:51
SPEAKER_02: activists,
30:51
SPEAKER_02: journalists,
30:52
SPEAKER_02: politicians,
30:53
SPEAKER_02: organizers,
30:54
SPEAKER_02: folks who are non-citizens,
30:56
SPEAKER_02: I would highly recommend preparing a go bag.
30:58
I actually have a document of what to do if I were to be
31:03
detained or deported for
31:04
SPEAKER_02: whatever reason and I shared it with my inner circle.
31:07
SPEAKER_02: That's all important to have.
31:09
SPEAKER_02: It's probably going to feel a little silly putting it together,
31:12
but it's better to be overprepared and never need it than to
31:15
absolutely need it and
31:16
SPEAKER_02: have nothing.
31:17
It's also important to reflect on what level of risk you're
31:20
willing to tolerate.
31:22
SPEAKER_02: And if that level of risk is breached, then have an action plan, right?
31:26
Really reflect on it because everyone's appetite for risk is
31:30
personal to them.
31:31
As Matt mentioned,
31:32
at the beginning of Trump's second term,
31:35
there was a cadre of
31:37
of researchers who study fascism and authoritarianism,
31:42
they left immediately,
31:43
right?
31:44
And then there are other people that need to wait a little bit
31:46
before they end up
31:47
SPEAKER_02: wanting to act or fleeing the country.
31:49
SPEAKER_02: So take the time to reflect, take the time to prepare.
31:52
It may feel a little silly,
31:53
but you might end up helping yourself more than you think.
31:57
SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
31:58
SPEAKER_01: Oh, man.
31:59
SPEAKER_01: What a sad way to end the show.
32:02
SPEAKER_01: Oh, my God.
32:02
SPEAKER_01: It's important to talk about.
32:07
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
32:08
SPEAKER_02: It's hard to talk.
32:09
It's hard to host a podcast about ice because a podcast has to
32:13
be inherently
32:14
SPEAKER_02: informative and entertaining simultaneously.
32:17
SPEAKER_02: And so it's always hard to kind of end on such a dark note.
32:20
And the hope here is that you listen to our podcast and get
32:23
something useful and
32:24
SPEAKER_02: really action-oriented out of it,
32:25
SPEAKER_02: whether or not it is deep,
32:27
SPEAKER_02: dark,
32:27
SPEAKER_02: and depressing or enlightening and inspiring.
32:30
SPEAKER_02: All to say, that is it for us this week.
32:33
SPEAKER_02: As always, you can reach us at thisweekonice at gmail.com.
32:37
SPEAKER_02: And if you like this podcast, please share it with a friend.
32:40
SPEAKER_02: Stay safe, look out for your neighbors, and we'll see you next time.
32:42
SPEAKER_01: See you next time.
32:47
Bye.