Latest / The Eko Lens Podcast / Beyond Sight: Innovation, Advocacy, and the Future of Accessibility
Transcript
- speaker-0: Welcome to the Echo Lens, the podcast where we view assistive technology through the eyes of lived experience. I'm your host, Kenisha, and each episode we explore how dignity, design, and innovation intersect to empower blind in low vision communities. We're not just reviewing tech, we're reframing it. So there's a place for truth telling, for honoring the voices that often go unheard, and for challenging the industry to do better. Whether you're a developer, a user, or someone who simply believes in equity, you're in the right place. This is the Echo Lens. Let's take a closer look. This week we have Jesse. So excited to have you, Jesse. Dr. Jesse Bullinger was born with hydrocephalus, also known as water in the brain, causing damage to his optic nerve, which caused legal blindness and Developmental delays. So the odds were stacked against him. His parents refused to accept limitations and labels that others put on him. Bollinger preserved by attending the local public schools and later graduated from Graceland University with a Bachelor of Arts degree in communications and from Regis University with a Master of Science and nonprofit organization. And eventually Capella University with his PhD in human services. As a lifelong learner, Dr. Bollinger then returned to Capella to obtain a master of general psychology. Wow, that's amazing. ⁓ I would love to hear a little bit more, Jesse. How are you today? speaker-1: Awesome. I'm happy to do this and and really happy to get to know you and enjoy listening to the show as well. speaker-0: Yeah. ⁓ so Jesse and I met because I was invited to attend and share my story at a virtual Lions Club meeting from a friend I had connected with in high school. This friend had ⁓ experienced losing their sight and becoming blind. And when my all of my health stuff was happening most recently. And I lost my big sight of vision. ⁓ I was really reaching out to folks and looking for a sense of community. And I was invited into y'all's space and I appreciate y'all welcome me welcoming me in with open arms. It's been it's been fun. speaker-1: Yeah, absolutely. We are we are more than happy to have you and others. And that's one of the things that I really like about the ever everyone in the Clear Lake Virtual Lions and and kind of everybody even in my low vision circle is we're all really welcoming and we all we're all here for a really common purpose. speaker-0: Yes. So Jesse, tell us a little bit about your connection to the blind and low vision community. speaker-1: Right. So I I was born legally blind and it I was the only I was the only student at ⁓ Orient Maxburg ⁓ school that was that was blind or low vision and had a couple of blind friends ⁓ in in Creston, ⁓ which is a nearby town in southern Iowa where I grew up, ⁓ and eventually went to high school, but there weren't a lot there weren't a lot of low vision kids. you know, around. And so I kind of had to I had to make my own way. And I had to really early on learn how to be a self-advocate and how to really in a way be a networker. ⁓ we didn't call it back that back in the 80s and 90s, I don't think. I don't think they understood that kids could learn to network. But that's really what I did. And and and at a really early age I learned how to be involved in Things as complex as the IEP process and things as complex as exploring adaptive technology. And I remember a number of years ago I ran into my elementary principal ⁓ at a funeral of all places. I took the opportunity and I asked him a really simple question. I said, How did you know how to help me? And he and I I remember he kind of touched my arm and he No, he said, No. He said, I didn't help you. He said, You helped me. He said, You taught me. How to do this. And he said, I learned more from you than than you ever learned from me. And and so I took all those experiences and moved through life and and kind of took the the doubters that said that I never could be educated and and kind of took that and ran with it and said, Well, ⁓ let's see how far this can go. And ⁓ I th I think that's what's propelled me into really trying a lot of different things, exploring things that blind and visually impaired people are typically told they can't do, shouldn't do, ⁓ have no business having knowledge of, ⁓ you know, and getting knowledge in those areas and and really putting myself where where I'm needed, but also where I feel where I feel a passion or where I where I feel a connection. Yeah. speaker-0: Can feel that you have ⁓ so much passion for bringing people together in space too. You're the president of of the the Lions Club right now, so you definitely are are in that space to bring people together and create fellowship, ⁓ especially amongst the blind and low vision community. ⁓ so when it comes to like moving through school, moving through your education. Like what were some ⁓ assistive tools that you really depended on to get to get through that? And what do you depend on now? speaker-1: Right. So like I said, very early on, ⁓ technology was really important. So I think ⁓ I r I remember a a computer coming home probably first grade, second grade for sure. ⁓ you know, so this would have been I mean, I started kindergarten in nineteen eighty nine, so very early nineties, ⁓ probably one of the first computers in our little rural neighborhood. ⁓ north north of Creston, ⁓ just south of Orient, and one of the first families on the internet. ⁓ Let's just say our first experience with AOL was interesting. ⁓ the free trial turned out to be free until we got the long distance bill dialing into Des Moines. ⁓ speaker-0: like I can just hear the dial up sound right now and speaker-1: Exactly. You know, I'll never I'll never forget my first time on the internet, ⁓ my first Google search, or not go not even Google because Google didn't exist. ⁓ a Yahoo search for my favorite band, Leonard Skinner, you know, sitting encrested on a computer, ⁓ course on on ⁓ on a you know, ⁓ on an older Mac, but anyway. ⁓ very early on with an old style black and white closed circuit TV. and and and you know used one of those for for many, many years. My parents worked very hard to get one at home. And I thought the big innovation was when I was able to go to a color C C T V. I I thought that was I I thought that was great new technology. And I thought that was gonna be it, you know. ⁓ and and to go from a, you know, 14 inch screen to, you know, twenty or twenty seven inch, whatever it was. And that that had been used by by an another student in the Creston district that I that I kinda knew, ⁓ a guy by the name of Sam Springer. Sam was great. ⁓ you know, it was hi his old machine and he didn't need it anymore, so I got it and ⁓ then moved into ⁓ head-mounted ⁓ in high school a head-mounted display ⁓ called the Jordy and And that was wonderful to be able to read the blackboard for the first time or the marker board. And really, you know, use that device for a long time because it also doubled as a C T C T V could you drop it into a cradle and hook it to the TV, you know, and then read your textbooks or or or what whatever. And ⁓ then that moved eventually, and I was really resistant, ⁓ into e-sight eyewear ⁓ well over ten years later, in in twenty fifteen, eSite's a Canadian product. ⁓ they just got about bought out by Gentech. And ⁓ so I'm an avid e site user. ⁓ put my vision just under j just right about twenty forty. ⁓ I've used it for everything from reading, writing, watching concerts. ⁓ I took my private pilot's ⁓ medical exam with it. ⁓ with the aviation medical examiner didn't didn't pass. The FA would not approve the device. ⁓ we have tried it. It does work. ⁓ it's just they don't want to approve it. So ⁓ fun with it. speaker-0: Amazing. ⁓ You flew with it? speaker-1: I have flown with it. I've flown a Cessna one eighty two with it. ⁓ it does it does work, but like I said, the FAA just doesn't want to take that chance. ⁓ the exact words words of the flight surgeon that ended up eventually getting a hold of the case kind of by accident were I don't want you to die, stick to a simulator. So ⁓ w which I understand, but ⁓ but but it was a lot of fun to fly with it. And ⁓ many other experiences. speaker-0: ⁓ my god. Gosh, that that's so amazing. That's really cool. I haven't tried the E site yet, but ⁓ after hearing your so you said it takes you to twenty forty close to that. speaker-1: It did. And that was with the old version. So the version now and I'll show it and I'll show it to you sometime if we can get together. ⁓ yeah. The new version's a lot more s compact. It's called the eSight Go, ⁓ and the prices dropped from ⁓ fifteen thousand dollars, which ⁓ it was a cash price. There was no insurance involved. And I think right now we're sitting somewhere between six and seven thousand dollars. So we've seen a good drop in price. ⁓ and they they really are working to innovate and make some positive changes with that. ⁓ so I use that and and use it in conjunction. Don't use it in conjunction with my guide dog dog as much anymore, ⁓ because of a feature they removed. ⁓ but but travel with it ⁓ pretty frequently and it it's kind of my go to. speaker-0: Where are you seeing a lack in in the accessibility that is available today? Right. ⁓ where do you think that we can, or developers or researchers, where can we do better in that, in that sense? speaker-1: Here here's the problem, and I and I've actually been fighting this ⁓ over the last couple of weeks as we get ready to take a trip. You know, I I'm well I'm well into with what's going on with e site. ⁓ I know about products like the OrCam. ⁓ I've actually talked to e site prior to the Gentex purchase ⁓ about how to use eSite with an ORCAM, ⁓ because there are features that e-site doesn't have. I've asked them about adding AI, ⁓ not something they're probably gonna do, and if they do it, they're not talking about it. ⁓ the problem right now is we've got adaptive devices like eSite and Orcam, and and there's some others that are there are some other devices similar to e-site on the market. But then we have the MetaGlasses and some off-brand knockoffs, some different things. But Meta has built in some great things with the AI with being able to describe. And so where I'm at right now is trying to find, and I haven't bought my metaglasses yet, but I'm trying to figure out the the connection between e-sight, meta, and the guide dog. How do those three things play together? But then, you know, the disconnect becomes one that I like I said, I'm fighting it right now. We have we have organizations and companies, ⁓ and and I won't pick on any specific cruise line, but But they're banning, they're banning smart glasses. And the question that that's raising is how does that, how does that affect accessibility? And what exactly is a smart glass? What exactly is smart glasses? So just to be safe, I got clearance to bring my e-site on an upcoming cruise just in case. Normally I wouldn't worry about saying anything. But I did just to be on the safe side. ⁓ I did it just to be on the safe side at an Eagles concert when I first got the glasses because the original E site glasses shot a little laser beam. And so I talked to the Eagles ⁓ head of security just to make sure it wouldn't cause a problem. You know, that kind of thing. And and part of that's education as well. So speaker-0: Did the cruise line give you a a reasoning? That's that's wild. I know we talked about this a little bit, right? Like so the the they're not allowing folks to bring and I I I get to an extent, but it's not they're leaving out the accessibility part of people who need it other than a reason of entertainment. Like speaker-1: Yeah, so this was wild, this was wild. So I submitted this several weeks ago. So I submitted my regular, you know, request and I had forgotten to put the e-site on. I didn't even think about it because I'm just used to grabbing it and going. And then after the fact, I was like, hey, I better include this. So I emailed them, never heard back, finally called. It's not even possible to talk to the accessibility department. And so I ended up getting it approved on the spot. I just stayed on the phone and I had a rep that was really willing to push through. But then when I asked about the metaglasses, They were like, yeah, flat out, just no. Because again, it's it's privacy. It's it's one or two people, honestly, that have probably done something that they shouldn't have that has really affected it for the rest of us. And so I didn't the the representative I was talking to, I mean, they they couldn't, they didn't have the power to affect any change. And I think that's where we're at. The more I learn and the more people I network with and the more people I talk to. I think that's where we're at is really having to come together as a community to make some of these changes. And while it's great that we have a product on the open market that also can be used as an adaptive device. And I think we've seen that many times in history where what helps improve the life of a low vision person also improves the life of a regularly abled person. I saw that many times in elementary, middle, and high school. ⁓ But I think now we see the technological and ethical challenges and we're just gonna have to work through ⁓ as a community. speaker-0: What is your hope for the next generation of assistive technology? Like what do you want to see? speaker-1: Well, I I'm a huge advocate. I'm a huge advocate for AI. I'm a huge advocate for autonomous vehicles. ⁓ I see the issues both ethically and technologically with both. But the problem I see too is a huge lack of understanding both on the ethical and technological side ⁓ of of both of both AI and And autonomous vehicles. But I think that's where we're at, is that's that's the next generation is is playing those two things together. And I know one of your prior guests had made a comment about wouldn't it be great to just be able to summon a car, you know, an autonomous vehicle. But I'm gonna take it a step further. If we can, the technology's there, there need to be some improvements, but if we can work through The legal side of changing the law, changing laws to allow autonomous vehicles, and changing laws, maybe not for a driver's license, but an operator's license. If we can start to have those conversations, there is no reason. And I'm sorry, there are countries that are gonna beat us to this. There is no reason that I shouldn't be able to grab. my key fob and walk out the door and go to the mall or go out of town to a ball game on my own. That the technology's there. We just need to perfect it. We need to change the laws. Calling the vehicle from your phone is fine, but walking out the door and doing it yourself is better. speaker-0: Gosh, so we are talking a little bit about this ⁓ in some other spaces too, or these are some of the things that we want to have conversations with legislators about, right? Because they'll understand what like game-changing makers this could be for us to be able to improve technology to that next step. And you're right, others are gonna do it first because there's other people around the world that are technologically further along than us. But but, you know, we don't wanna partner with them fully for whatever reason, right? ⁓ and try to do it ourselves, but there's definitely a a gap missing in our tech right now. speaker-1: Well, and the other part of it is the blind and low vision community has a huge rate and I don't know where the current statistics are right now. at one point I saw it was maybe upwards of fifty percent of blind and low vision individuals are either unemployed or underemployed. And part of that is transportation. And there is no reason I'm fortunate to live in an area where I have a great relationship not only with our transit provider. But and that relationship's very important. But they also it's also a well run system. Not everybody has that. So if we could overcome the barrier of transportation, there is no reason why somebody that's blind or low vision shouldn't be able to live out in the country, miles from a town, have their own transportation, leading to then employment. speaker-0: That's huge too. When I first was not able to drive for a period of time, ⁓ my hard part was trying to secure, you know, what tr kind of transportation was available because they didn't have really the resources laid out like that for ⁓ assistive assisting folks, right? ⁓ I finally was able to get s things secured, but Uber and Lyft, right? And that gets so expensive. ⁓ to have to to have to Uber and Lip. There there was a conversation I read about before that Uber was trying to do some partnership. They do have partnership in some metropolitan areas where blind and low vision folks can get discounted. ⁓ like Uber and Lip frights, but they don't have that everywhere for speaker-1: Everyone. No. No. And I know they I know that Uber, I believe Uber specifically, had partnered at one point in some areas with some state Medicaid programs to do some transportation for medical appointments. That's great. i but it really i it it does. It it very much can add up. And and the other problem that still exists and and there have been there's there's been at least one lawsuit, ⁓ and I'm not so sure there's not one still in the courts about access for service animals for Uber and Lyft. ⁓ Uber Uber's been the big one. And and that's and that's a huge problem. speaker-0: What is a message that you would like to leave our listeners with, Jesse, as we wrap up? speaker-1: I mean, I think the message is one of communication. Yeah. We we as we as a low vision community and as a low vision and blind community, we really need to we need to share our stories. We talk to each other well. But the other thing the low vision and blind community needs to do is we need to talk to Everybody else that has disabilities. One of the things I've noticed, especially in small towns, is the people that are blind and low vision talk to the people that are blind and low vision, the people in wheelchairs talk to the people in wheelchairs, but we're not always talking together. So we need to do we need to do better as a disability community of talking to each other, but we also need to do better about sharing how our technology works. And so nothing thrills me more. When somebody comes up and asks me about my e-sight, or when somebody comes and asks me about the guide dog, ⁓ you know, take those opportunities to when somebody says, Can I pet your dog? as you're as you're giving them the fur no, educate them and and talk to them. Yeah. Yeah. Don't be afraid to speaker-0: Educate them why. speaker-1: Don't be afraid to build those networks and and don't be afraid to to share your story. speaker-0: Yeah. ⁓ my gosh. Yes. Thank you so much, Jesse. I loved having this this conversation with you today. And I'm hoping that we can bring you back. You're gonna do some work with us on the beautiful project. So we'll definitely be hearing from you again. speaker-1: Yeah, I'm absol I'm excited about the beautiful project. I can't wait to kinda hear what the next steps are gonna be on that. ⁓ it's been an absolute pleasure meeting you. We are so we are so glad to have you as a client and ⁓ you know hopefully speaker-0: Well, I'm definitely excited too to see what kind of, you know, things that we can do in that space. Maybe it's no, we're taking it up to legislation. Let's go. Thanks, Jesse, for joining us on the Echo Lens, where we view assistive tech through the eyes of lived experience. If today's conversation sparks something in you, you can share it, rate it, and keep the dialogue going. To learn more about our beautiful project and support our work, you can visit EchovisionFoundation.org. speaker-1: Absolutely. speaker-0: Until next time, stay curious, stay connected, and keep seeing with love. Bye everybody.