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Beyond Words - Henry Warren (Turn On The Subtitles) · WHAT I'VE LEARNT

• 0:09
  SPEAKER_00: Well, Stephen Fry and Jack Black are just two of the extraordinary actors and supporters of this incredibly innovative and simple mission to turn on the subtitles.
• 0:22
  SPEAKER_00: Extensive research from top academics in many countries has shown that simply turning on the subtitles for children's television improves literacy and it improves it dramatically.
• 0:32
  SPEAKER_00: In fact, it may double their chance of becoming a proficient reader.
• 0:36
  SPEAKER_00: In particular, those children between the ages of six and ten.
• 0:39
  SPEAKER_00: As former ministers, secretaries of state, civil servants, and celebrities start to see that all we need to do is turn on the subtitles on a lot of the streaming services like Sky, Netflix, Amazon Prime.
• 0:52
  SPEAKER_00: This is something that really assists children to learn to read.
• 0:56
  SPEAKER_00: This needs to be done as a matter of urgency.
• 0:59
  SPEAKER_00: This simple change will make the world of difference to millions of young people at this extremely challenging time.
• 1:05
  SPEAKER_00: In fact, it already is.
• 1:06
  SPEAKER_00: You can find out more at the website www.turnonthesubtitles.org.
• 1:11
  SPEAKER_00: It really is an extraordinary invention and innovation.
• 1:21
  SPEAKER_00: In the meantime, we're very fortunate to have Henry Warren come on board to talk to us about this extraordinary simple but challenging to get through the slate of many of the bureaucracies that we see around town.
• 1:37
  SPEAKER_00: So Henry's going to give us a little insight into how we can help children read using this very simple technology.
• 1:44
  SPEAKER_00: So tell us a little bit about turn on the subtitles, even though it the actual name suggests what it is.
• 1:50
  SPEAKER_00: But how about you give us a little insight?
• 1:53
  SPEAKER_01: Hi, Deb.
• 1:53
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you so much for having me today.
• 1:55
  SPEAKER_01: It's an absolute pleasure to be here.
• 1:56
  SPEAKER_01: So all of this starts with a did you know, which is did you know that when children watch TV with quality subtitles on, it massively improves their reading?
• 2:07
  SPEAKER_01: So I maybe I should just give you the background story as to how I got involved in this.
• 2:12
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, that would be great.
• 2:13
  SPEAKER_00: I'd love to hear.
• 2:14
  SPEAKER_01: So I'm a dad of three.
• 2:16
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I have a 14-year-old, a 12-year-old, and a seven-year-old who is utterly fearsome.
• 2:21
  SPEAKER_01: I'm pretty certain she's going to end up running a drug cartel when she's three as well.
• 2:27
  SPEAKER_00: So I get it.
• 2:28
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 2:30
  SPEAKER_00: You watch them, yes, and you see them very early on sprout their talents.
• 2:34
  SPEAKER_01: Indeed.
• 2:35
  SPEAKER_01: I know whether that's a talent, but anyway.
• 2:37
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so I I used to head up innovation for a company called Pearson, um, some large uh education company.
• 2:45
  SPEAKER_01: So I've been a long obsessed with with education and looking for levers that would have a profound impact, right?
• 2:55
  SPEAKER_01: Anyway, I got sent through um this article.
• 2:59
  SPEAKER_01: It was a just a Guardian article, it was a couple of paragraphs long, very, very short, from uh from a dear friend of mine who later became my co-founder.
• 3:06
  SPEAKER_01: And in this article, it said there's there's been some research, there's been a study that seems to show that there is a link between subtitles and literacy.
• 3:16
  SPEAKER_01: And to be honest, when I first looked at this, I was a little skeptical.
• 3:20
  SPEAKER_01: Now, look, I've been sold every single magic education bullet under the sun uh during during my time.
• 3:27
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm pretty skeptical about most things.
• 3:29
  SPEAKER_01: I don't believe in magic bullets, right?
• 3:32
  SPEAKER_01: And so I put it down.
• 3:34
  SPEAKER_01: But then for some reason, Deb, I I picked it up again late one evening.
• 3:38
  SPEAKER_01: And and one of the people that was cited in this was this professor from Hawaii.
• 3:42
  SPEAKER_01: And I thought, well, it's late tonight here.
• 3:44
  SPEAKER_01: It'll be a reasonable time in Hawaii.
• 3:46
  SPEAKER_01: I'll give him a call.
• 3:47
  SPEAKER_01: So I tracked down this guy's number and I rang him.
• 3:49
  SPEAKER_01: And I said, This is kind of interesting.
• 3:51
  SPEAKER_01: Can you tell me about this?
• 3:52
  SPEAKER_01: And and after kind of saying, Look, who are you again?
• 3:56
  SPEAKER_01: Um, he was very, very patient with me, spent about an hour on the phone.
• 4:01
  SPEAKER_01: And by the end of this call, Deb, I was like, Holy cow, how had I not heard about this?
• 4:07
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, it makes perfect sense, but surely it can't be that simple.
• 4:11
  SPEAKER_01: So I did the kind of stupid thing that people like me do.
• 4:14
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and I said, Well, look, will you send me the research?
• 4:17
  SPEAKER_01: Which um they promptly did.
• 4:19
  SPEAKER_01: And it was at that juncture that I remembered that I'm not an academic.
• 4:23
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and frankly, I can't tell good research from bad.
• 4:26
  SPEAKER_01: So I picked up the phone to Dame Julia Cleverden, who at the time was the chair of the National Literacy Trust, which is the UK equivalent of the of the World Literacy Foundation.
• 4:37
  SPEAKER_01: And I said, Look, could you guys take a look at this and tell us whether this is this is kosher?
• 4:41
  SPEAKER_01: Because if it is, I think this is kind of massive, but I don't know.
• 4:44
  SPEAKER_01: So after thanking me for cluttering up their desk for about three months, uh, three months later, they came back, and they said, My God, Henry, this uh doesn't just have a small impact, this seems to double the chance of a child leaving school as a proficient reader.
• 5:02
  SPEAKER_01: And here's the reason why the average child in the UK watches 11.8 hours of TV per week.
• 5:09
  SPEAKER_01: Not here to say whether it's a good or a bad thing, but I'm not gonna change that.
• 5:13
  SPEAKER_01: 11.8 hours of TV per week.
• 5:15
  SPEAKER_01: Now, if were they to have quality subtitles on during that time, they would read, and they would read, we've done the eye tracking experiments, they would read the same number of words that are in all of the Harry Potter books, all of the Narnia books, all of the Lord of the Rings, and everything that Roldarl ever wrote in just one year.
• 5:38
  SPEAKER_01: And that's why it worked.
• 5:39
  SPEAKER_00: That is mind-blowing, I have to say, that is quite an extraordinary series of stats that I mean, it is really incredible.
• 5:49
  SPEAKER_00: And the fact that nobody's picked this up before, I mean, subtitles have been around for a long time.
• 5:53
  SPEAKER_00: There is, I get the logic though, if you think about it, because they're reading while they're watching TV.
• 5:59
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, it is just, and it goes to show obviously that the more you read, the more proficient, as we know, you become.
• 6:06
  SPEAKER_00: And so kids that might feel reticent about accessing books or have little access to books, but can watch TV and are prepared to watch TV, it gives them this whole new realm.
• 6:17
  SPEAKER_00: So, how is it even a problem to get this to be, I suppose, almost mandatory?
• 6:23
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, for the streaming services and for all of the BBC, the ABC.
• 6:28
  SPEAKER_00: Is this something?
• 6:29
  SPEAKER_00: Tell me a little bit about how you're tackling that issue, which I'm surprised it is an issue, to be honest, when you've got those sort of facts.
• 6:37
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, absolutely.
• 6:37
  SPEAKER_01: I can do that.
• 6:38
  SPEAKER_01: But I do want to say that there are a number of academics that have known about this for quite some time.
• 6:43
  SPEAKER_01: I want a particular hat tip to Professor Bridge Katari, um, who runs something called Planet Read out of India, who's really kind of the godfather of this space.
• 6:53
  SPEAKER_01: So there are a number of academics around the world that have been shouting about this, but perhaps it hasn't kind of got it into the public um consciousness.
• 7:00
  SPEAKER_01: So let me tell you a little bit about kind of uh the campaign, and I'll tell you kind of where we've got to, where we've been successful and and where we've failed spectacularly.
• 7:08
  SPEAKER_01: So so when this first when this first came about and I found out about this, the thinking was well, that look, this is just about information asymmetry.
• 7:17
  SPEAKER_01: And if we can tell educators, if we can tell parents, if we can tell broadcasters about this, everyone is going to have the same reaction that you and I have just had, right?
• 7:27
  SPEAKER_01: This is just a no-brainer.
• 7:28
  SPEAKER_01: No-brainer is a phrase I hear a lot.
• 7:30
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 7:31
  SPEAKER_01: So the main thing we wanted to try and achieve was to get the broadcasters to change the default settings for children's TV.
• 7:39
  SPEAKER_01: So you have the subtitles on by default.
• 7:41
  SPEAKER_01: So what we did was we put out um kind of an open letter in in the Times of London calling on these broadcasters to do this.
• 7:49
  SPEAKER_01: And it was signed off by the you know, the great and the good of the education establishment, who by that point had all been through the same um evidence base that we had.
• 7:57
  SPEAKER_01: And um, what we thought would happen would be the broadcasters would see this, they would see the incredible social impact that they could have in terms of improving literacy.
• 8:08
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, I don't know on this podcast of all podcasts, perhaps I don't need to go into why literacy is so important, but it's clearly, yes, it's very much the mission of this World Literacy Foundation podcast is to shine the light on this issue because it's you know, we know it's life-changing, it takes people out of poverty.
• 8:25
  SPEAKER_00: It we know all the all the massive bonuses and critical elements that literacy assists with.
• 8:33
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, but I mean both on micro and macro scale, right?
• 8:35
  SPEAKER_01: You know, on a micro scale, these are UK numbers.
• 8:38
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, you are three times more likely to be incarcerated if you leave school with low levels of literacy.
• 8:42
  SPEAKER_01: You are three times more likely to be hospitalized.
• 8:45
  SPEAKER_01: You're even three times more likely to die young.
• 8:48
  SPEAKER_01: Now, this is correlation rather than causation, but I think the argument is pretty clear, right?
• 8:52
  SPEAKER_00: Pretty evident.
• 8:53
  SPEAKER_01: And then from the from the macro perspective, uh the World Bank recently did a study about learning loss as a result of COVID, uh, which suggests that, give or take, 70% of kids now globally are behind when it comes to literacy.
• 9:06
  SPEAKER_01: The learning loss, as it's referred to, um, is calculated by the World Bank um to be around about$21 trillion, 21 trillion US dollars uh in potential lost earnings for this generation.
• 9:20
  SPEAKER_01: To put that in perspective, that's pretty close to the annual GDP of Europe.
• 9:25
  SPEAKER_01: So these are big numbers, right?
• 9:26
  SPEAKER_00: So this maximum is big numbers, mind-blowing numbers and and quite you know, in a in a modern world, it's hard to believe some of these states, isn't it?
• 9:36
  SPEAKER_01: It's kind of nice.
• 9:37
  SPEAKER_01: You know what?
• 9:37
  SPEAKER_01: It's it's kind of disgraceful, let's be honest, right?
• 9:40
  SPEAKER_01: It really is.
• 9:40
  SPEAKER_00: It's outrageous.
• 9:42
  SPEAKER_01: But it is outrageous.
• 9:43
  SPEAKER_01: But anyway, off my high horse.
• 9:44
  SPEAKER_01: So let's go back to to where we were.
• 9:47
  SPEAKER_01: So we we decided to put this letter in the Times, and I thought we'd do this, and the broadcasters would see this, um, and they would go, We have we have to do this.
• 9:55
  SPEAKER_01: This is such a no-brainer.
• 9:56
  SPEAKER_00: Societal benefit, easy to do, not hard.
• 9:59
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, it's not hard.
• 10:00
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, and then there would be rainbows and unicorns and cats playing with dogs, and all would be well in the world.
• 10:06
  SPEAKER_01: And I think you can probably see the punchline coming, it total spectacular failure.
• 10:11
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, the tumbleweed was deafening, like no response at all, um, which was faintly disappointing.
• 10:16
  SPEAKER_01: So, because at the time I I was I have portfolio of different uh techno technology companies, and I was focusing on those anyway.
• 10:25
  SPEAKER_01: So then uh met up with my my co-founder in a in a coffee shop after this, and we were like, Well, this is disappointing.
• 10:32
  SPEAKER_01: And it was he that said, you know what, we need no one's gonna do this, we need to do this ourselves.
• 10:38
  SPEAKER_01: To which my response was we have day jobs, and yeah, how do we do this?
• 10:44
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
• 10:44
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, so we thought, okay, fine, you know what, but let's give this a year and let's see what happens.
• 10:49
  SPEAKER_01: Let's just try and do it alongside our day jobs and try and raise the profile of this.
• 10:53
  SPEAKER_01: So in 2021, um, March 2021, we launched um the Turn on the Subtitles campaign, TOTS, uh, with Stephen Fry.
• 11:04
  SPEAKER_00: And yeah, I saw that, yeah.
• 11:06
  SPEAKER_00: Jack Black as well.
• 11:07
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
• 11:08
  SPEAKER_01: So I'll come on to Jack in a bit.
• 11:10
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 11:10
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so we launched it with with with Stephen, um, who's just totally lovely.
• 11:16
  SPEAKER_01: And then uh we had a number of other UK celebrities like Sandy Toxvig and Rachel Riley and Lenny Henry and uh Sanji Baskar, who very kindly uh gave us their services.
• 11:26
  SPEAKER_01: So we launched this, and honestly, Deb, it just went nuts.
• 11:30
  SPEAKER_01: It went insane.
• 11:31
  SPEAKER_01: Bear in mind this was run from a kitchen table part-time, okay.
• 11:34
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, so we had we had 37 million impressions on Twitter in the first 48 hours.
• 11:41
  SPEAKER_01: It was the biggest story on Reddit since the January 6th insurrection.
• 11:46
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know what that says about Reddit.
• 11:48
  SPEAKER_01: It was covered by pretty much all of the major um uh broadsheets in in the UK, and some in the US, some people like Forbes and stuff picked it up.
• 11:57
  SPEAKER_01: The majority of of tabloids and and weirdly, radio, which is something I hadn't even thought about.
• 12:02
  SPEAKER_01: We did 30 odd radio interviews uh on this.
• 12:05
  SPEAKER_01: So, anyway, that then led to the first of the major broadcasters embracing this.
• 12:10
  SPEAKER_01: So, Sky, huge hat tip to um Lucy Murphy and her team at uh Sky.
• 12:15
  SPEAKER_01: Um, they were the first to jump on board, so they created a literacy zone uh on SkyQ.
• 12:20
  SPEAKER_01: So you can now watch SpongeBob, SquarePants, and Scooby-Doo with subtitles uh burnt in shortcuts.
• 12:26
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
• 12:27
  SPEAKER_01: So we also launched with uh the lovely team at Moonbug.
• 12:31
  SPEAKER_01: Again, huge hat to John Benoit and his his guys.
• 12:35
  SPEAKER_01: We launched a channel with them again, with subtitles burnt into some of their favorite things, like you know, Cocoa Mel and Little Baby Bum, etc.
• 12:43
  SPEAKER_01: That went crazy big.
• 12:45
  SPEAKER_01: We're now I haven't checked the numbers in recent months, but last time I checked, it was uh 11 million subscribers and closing in on five billion views, which I I think is give or take 20 times the size of children's BBC.
• 12:59
  SPEAKER_00: So just sorry, can I just clarify that bit?
• 13:03
  SPEAKER_00: So when you say the subscribers, you mean to subscribers to what?
• 13:08
  SPEAKER_01: To to to the channel it's called Moonbug Literacy.
• 13:12
  SPEAKER_01: Go go check it out.
• 13:12
  SPEAKER_01: It's on YouTube.
• 13:14
  SPEAKER_01: Some amazing cartoons with subtitles burnt in.
• 13:17
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 13:17
  SPEAKER_00: And is that something that you established, or was that something that the the how did moon bug, how did that come to be?
• 13:24
  SPEAKER_01: We told them about the power of this.
• 13:26
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, we said we'll work together with you on it when we launched it.
• 13:29
  SPEAKER_00: So it was a it was a collaborative effort, and that's how you got that.
• 13:32
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, absolutely.
• 13:32
  SPEAKER_00: So that's a lot of impressions and a lot of engagement.
• 13:36
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and then uh I think I mentioned earlier Professor Bridge Kathari from Planet Read.
• 13:42
  SPEAKER_01: Um, we worked with those guys and they managed to get the law changed in India.
• 13:47
  SPEAKER_01: So by 2025, 50% of all linear broadcast content, what you and I think of as TV, will have subtitles on by by default.
• 13:55
  SPEAKER_01: Weirdly, actually, that's that's not just kids stuff, that's adults as well as big adult literacy problems, which is important actually, and in India too.
• 14:01
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, very important.
• 14:02
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it's it's it's massive.
• 14:04
  SPEAKER_01: So um it was it was just nuts because we'd gone from literally the back of a napkin um in Leon, if you must know, uh, to being, I think, the world's largest ever literacy projects, impacting about 400 million kids now um around the world.
• 14:22
  SPEAKER_01: Absolutely incredible.
• 14:23
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 14:24
  SPEAKER_01: So at that point, I was like, I'm this is starting to take up quite a bit of my time.
• 14:29
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so I decided basically to get rid of all my other stuff and just focus on this because like, how often in your career, in your life, are you gonna get a chance to be able to help this many kids?
• 14:42
  SPEAKER_01: Just never, right?
• 14:42
  SPEAKER_00: This is never this is this is really a gift.
• 14:45
  SPEAKER_00: It's a it's really like a gift.
• 14:48
  SPEAKER_01: It is.
• 14:48
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and I I think it I can say this because I didn't come up with the idea.
• 14:51
  SPEAKER_01: I just think it's such a wonderful idea, and I think this is doable.
• 14:57
  SPEAKER_01: Like back in the I'm gonna get the dates wrong now, Deb, but it was in the I think it was givetake 100 years ago, the they first started.
• 15:06
  SPEAKER_01: Do you know what a goiter is?
• 15:08
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, have you come across yeah?
• 15:09
  SPEAKER_01: So this is like a swelling thing.
• 15:11
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 15:12
  SPEAKER_01: It's really unpleasant.
• 15:12
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, well, most people don't even know what that is because then it really exists that much these days.
• 15:17
  SPEAKER_01: So um, but this was a this was a big problem.
• 15:19
  SPEAKER_01: If you lived 150 years ago, you'd actually know about goiter as well.
• 15:23
  SPEAKER_00: It wasn't pretty, yeah.
• 15:24
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, so uh about a hundred years ago, for the first time, they started putting iodine in the salt, and you only need a trace amount of iodine in salt to get rid of goites, which is one of the reasons why you just don't see them uh anymore.
• 15:36
  SPEAKER_01: No one talks about it, it's just there, right?
• 15:38
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 15:39
  SPEAKER_01: 29 years later, after that, they first put fluoride uh in in the water to improve tooth decay.
• 15:46
  SPEAKER_01: No one really noticed uh had a massive impact.
• 15:50
  SPEAKER_00: Transformative.
• 15:51
  SPEAKER_01: We're doing the same thing for literacy.
• 15:54
  SPEAKER_00: That's a really very powerful uh metaphor in a way, because it you know, to be reaching this many people.
• 16:01
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, these kids, so it's not just kids, is it?
• 16:03
  SPEAKER_00: Because you even though I know your focus is kids, but also as you said in India, there I mean, anybody who it helps anybody read, really, doesn't it?
• 16:11
  SPEAKER_01: It it it does.
• 16:12
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, yeah, we are very, very focused on on children at the moment, I think one step at the time, but there's uh you know, you look at the uh literacy rates in prisons, it's incredibly low.
• 16:24
  SPEAKER_01: You know, what could we do there?
• 16:26
  SPEAKER_01: One of the things I love about this is so right, my my youngest in particular is the world's fussiest eater.
• 16:33
  SPEAKER_01: Oh dear god, if it's not bland and salty, she is not touching it.
• 16:39
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, so so I do what a lot of parents do.
• 16:43
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and I sort of I smush up the vegetables and bit and I hide them in her bottleneck, right?
• 16:49
  SPEAKER_01: She doesn't notice.
• 16:50
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, exactly.
• 16:52
  SPEAKER_01: I feel I'm getting some nutrition intermediate.
• 16:54
  SPEAKER_01: This is the same.
• 16:55
  SPEAKER_00: Cool, dad.
• 16:56
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it's called the this this is the same, right?
• 17:00
  SPEAKER_01: Kids don't even notice this, right?
• 17:02
  SPEAKER_01: You stick them on, stick them on uh early on, they don't even notice, but you'll teach them to read.
• 17:07
  SPEAKER_01: And if if people's kids are anything like mine, it can be a challenge.
• 17:11
  SPEAKER_01: I of my three kids, my middle daughter, she reads brilliantly.
• 17:14
  SPEAKER_01: My 14-year-old, I can't I cannot get him to pick up a book.
• 17:18
  SPEAKER_01: Just not interested.
• 17:19
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, but he he might just grow into it, and also I think that's the other thing.
• 17:23
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, I I have three children as well, that they're a bit older, but but you know, kids learn in different ways at different times, and that's when as a parent, you realize that.
• 17:32
  SPEAKER_00: And this is a really wonderful opportunity to, as you say, they don't even realize that they're learning and that they're being taught to read.
• 17:42
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, it's it just seems the mind boggles that it's not been incorporated everywhere.
• 17:47
  SPEAKER_00: So, what are the greatest challenges for you now that you're doing this full-time and you're committed to this mission?
• 17:53
  SPEAKER_00: What a wonderful mission! Congratulations to you.
• 17:57
  SPEAKER_00: What are the greatest challenges you see in getting this to be part of everyday life in every possible country that you can get it into?
• 18:08
  SPEAKER_01: Well, we started off this campaign by going and talking to broadcasters and saying to them, hey, look, you should do this.
• 18:16
  SPEAKER_01: But here's the thing I was kind of naive.
• 18:19
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and what I've now come to realize is they're commercial organizations, Deb.
• 18:24
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, yes, yes, we do know this.
• 18:27
  SPEAKER_01: And much as they want to help, and there are some really good people, uh, they have they have commercial drivers, they have numbers that they have to to meet.
• 18:35
  SPEAKER_01: So our challenge now is you know, how do we make this really simple?
• 18:38
  SPEAKER_01: How do we make this such a no-brainer for them that they just have to do it?
• 18:43
  SPEAKER_01: So, what we've done um is we have created something called caterpillar captions.
• 18:49
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, I saw that.
• 18:49
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 18:50
  SPEAKER_01: This is the world's first academically approved font and style sheet um for subtitled designed specifically for children's literacy.
• 19:01
  SPEAKER_01: So we're starting to work with broadcasters uh around the world to implement these, um, which in turn allows them to have a very different type of conversation um with their parents uh on it.
• 19:14
  SPEAKER_01: And the I I can't really talk about the individual broadcasters that we are.
• 19:18
  SPEAKER_00: Of course, I respect that right now.
• 19:21
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but it's really exciting, and they're ones you've heard of.
• 19:24
  SPEAKER_01: They seem to be really taking to this, and I think you're gonna you're gonna be seeing this more and more, and you're gonna be hearing the phrase look for the blue caterpillar um a lot.
• 19:33
  SPEAKER_00: Can you just ex okay?
• 19:34
  SPEAKER_00: So, can you elaborate?
• 19:35
  SPEAKER_00: How is the caterpillar captioning different to other subtitles?
• 19:40
  SPEAKER_00: How does it differ?
• 19:41
  SPEAKER_00: Is it visual?
• 19:42
  SPEAKER_00: Is it the font?
• 19:43
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, you mentioned the font.
• 19:44
  SPEAKER_01: So it's a bunch of different things.
• 19:46
  SPEAKER_01: So we literally designed this from the bottom up.
• 19:48
  SPEAKER_01: It's except sorry, it's accessibility first.
• 19:50
  SPEAKER_01: So you know, some subtitles exist first and foremost to ensure that those that are deaf and hard of hearing um can can engage with the content.
• 20:00
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, so first and foremost, we have to ensure that that remains.
• 20:03
  SPEAKER_01: And it does.
• 20:04
  SPEAKER_01: So we meet all the top standards for that.
• 20:07
  SPEAKER_01: So, but how is this different?
• 20:08
  SPEAKER_01: So it's a it's a bunch of different things.
• 20:10
  SPEAKER_01: So, first of all, it's a it's a font that is super easy to read uh on there.
• 20:15
  SPEAKER_01: So things like negative spaces within it, it's you know, um, it's things like uh the D's and the B's are suitably different for so kids with dyslexia can easily see it.
• 20:26
  SPEAKER_01: That the you know heights of V's and W's are slightly different, P's and Q's, all those different things.
• 20:32
  SPEAKER_01: Then it's about the the contrast between I'm gonna get really geeky geeky.
• 20:36
  SPEAKER_01: You can tell me to shut up, by the way.
• 20:37
  SPEAKER_00: No, no, I get this because I think it's really important because if you can't see the subtitle, especially if it's against the actual image, yeah, that's also challenging, you know.
• 20:48
  SPEAKER_01: And you have this a lot.
• 20:49
  SPEAKER_01: So, I mean, the the standard of subtitling uh around the world is I think the polite term is variable stuff, you know, things in full caps, no grammar, spectacularly.
• 21:01
  SPEAKER_01: We we have we have this channel internally on on Slack, um, where we collect kind of subtitling fails, they're they're hilarious.
• 21:08
  SPEAKER_00: They just but they're I can imagine like all the wrong spelling, the wrong meaning, everything.
• 21:12
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, it's quite I'm sure because it because no one's investing time in that.
• 21:17
  SPEAKER_00: It's see, I mean, it's it's seen as a sort of a token by the way thing, isn't it?
• 21:23
  SPEAKER_01: Like people Oh, I think I think some broadcast, uh some broadcasters would would say no, that they actually take this very seriously, and accessibility is is is key to them, but there's no getting away from the fact that there's no revenue attached to it.
• 21:36
  SPEAKER_01: Um for a lot of them, it is it is something that they have they they kind of have to do.
• 21:42
  SPEAKER_01: And so some of them take it very seriously, uh, and some of them lesser.
• 21:46
  SPEAKER_01: So this is this is about setting the bar, this is about setting the standard, uh, it's about creating you know the ultimate set of uh of fonts on this.
• 21:54
  SPEAKER_01: But to your point on on colour and legibility, like most captions that you See will be white text on a black background.
• 22:04
  SPEAKER_01: So we assume that research was done on that around legibility, etc.
• 22:09
  SPEAKER_01: Turns out, no, turns out no one's ever done that.
• 22:12
  SPEAKER_01: That's just the received wisdom.
• 22:14
  SPEAKER_01: We've always done it like this.
• 22:16
  SPEAKER_01: And trust me, we looked, we did a lot, we've been a lot of research on this.
• 22:20
  SPEAKER_01: What all the data actually shows is that the most legible fonts, uh, the most legible subtitles are a dark text on a light but not white background.
• 22:32
  SPEAKER_01: So slightly off-yellow is is kind of the the optimal for this.
• 22:37
  SPEAKER_01: So we've done a bunch of different tests.
• 22:39
  SPEAKER_01: We actually tested this across all uh six continents.
• 22:42
  SPEAKER_01: We haven't done anything in Antarctica, maybe we should.
• 22:45
  SPEAKER_01: Um but we tested across all six continents, including including Australia, looking at um the legibility of this.
• 22:52
  SPEAKER_01: And um, I mean, look, the short you can see the numbers on on the stats, but but you know, 95% of kids read better, basically, with them is the is the short answer.
• 23:00
  SPEAKER_01: Uh so yeah, we're really excited about this.
• 23:03
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I think it's really exciting, but I also think um just on the you mentioned that it obviously it's not a a financial benefit of sorts.
• 23:11
  SPEAKER_00: Is there is there any room for sponsorship of subtitles?
• 23:14
  SPEAKER_00: I know that sounds really strange.
• 23:16
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it is.
• 23:17
  SPEAKER_01: It is something that that we're exploring, and how you know how does that work?
• 23:20
  SPEAKER_01: It's complicated, partly because you're you're starting to involve uh advertisers, you're starting to involve in education.
• 23:28
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, which is you know, you there's a very tight um fine line, tight road to to to walk uh on that.
• 23:35
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, but you've also got to look at talk to regulators, you know.
• 23:38
  SPEAKER_01: We do a lot of stuff with Ofcom uh here in the UK.
• 23:41
  SPEAKER_01: But yeah, it is something it's something that that we're exploring.
• 23:44
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, look, for me, the goal is really simple.
• 23:46
  SPEAKER_01: We got to get as many kids as we can when they watch TV, watch it with subtitles on.
• 23:52
  SPEAKER_01: Now we're not saying kids should not read books categorically.
• 23:55
  SPEAKER_00: No, it's not a it's not a replacement, but it's an enhancement.
• 23:59
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and it's it's a really and if you've got teachers, surely teachers and educators are on board.
• 24:04
  SPEAKER_00: I saw you've got like a series of resources that you provide.
• 24:09
  SPEAKER_00: Does that help drive your mission?
• 24:11
  SPEAKER_00: Is that helping if they, you know, because if they're on board, it's gonna help when you go to government and when you go to streaming services.
• 24:19
  SPEAKER_00: Are you getting good feedback?
• 24:21
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, amazing feedback from and we have a large constituency of teachers whom whom we work with.
• 24:26
  SPEAKER_01: Um so we've done a lot of testing with of with with the caterpillar captions with with teachers, and you know, nine out of ten teachers recommend that kids should watch this.
• 24:34
  SPEAKER_01: Nine out of ten, right?
• 24:36
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, but uh to to to your broader question, I mean, in on March 13th of this year, we're going to be launching a campaign um with the Hollywood legend Jack Black that's going out to all schools in the UK and uh the majority of schools in the US with a simple call to action, which is tell your parents, tell your parents uh this is such a simple way that you as a school can improve um your literacy outcomes, just get kids at home to do this.
• 25:09
  SPEAKER_01: You will see it.
• 25:10
  SPEAKER_01: So I that's exciting.
• 25:13
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it's kind of cool.
• 25:14
  SPEAKER_01: And you know, look, we we we do want to come to us, we've got to figure out how we fund that.
• 25:18
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but we we will get there at some point.
• 25:21
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I have to say, Jack Black, what a fabulous person to get on board, because the reality is that he's going to, as you obviously have got him on board for that reason, he's gonna elevate the the um presence of this mission, and I think it's really smart and he's funny and he's great, and kids love him, and adults love him too.
• 25:40
  SPEAKER_00: And as far as Australia goes, well, yeah, I've got some ideas around that.
• 25:44
  SPEAKER_00: We'll have to brainstorm, but I think you know, you need to, I think the alignment of popular or inverted commas celebrity type people who resonate with kids and adults to that you know, to that point, definitely takes it out of the bureaucracy.
• 26:01
  SPEAKER_00: It just gets it out there on the front foot, in a way, and that's what you've done, and that's very clever.
• 26:07
  SPEAKER_00: Was it hard to get him on board, or was he really like, of course, is it like not even an issue?
• 26:11
  SPEAKER_01: Totally lovely.
• 26:13
  SPEAKER_01: Totally lovely.
• 26:14
  SPEAKER_01: We just we didn't know Jack, we just reached out to him via his agent and said, Look, here's the problem.
• 26:19
  SPEAKER_01: We think this is a simple solution, we love your help.
• 26:22
  SPEAKER_01: And he was like, I'm in.
• 26:23
  SPEAKER_00: Brilliant.
• 26:24
  SPEAKER_00: And Stephen Fry, not to mention, pretty impressive, and also with that wonderful sort of literary, theatrical, historical presence.
• 26:34
  SPEAKER_00: There's something very, you know, he's pretty engaging.
• 26:38
  SPEAKER_01: Who doesn't love Stephen?
• 26:39
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, exactly.
• 26:40
  SPEAKER_01: He's an incredible human being, and you know, we are so privileged to to work with him.
• 26:46
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I think it's wonderful, and I'm so impressed with what you guys are doing.
• 26:49
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm sure everybody listening to this podcast will be very excited to see what you do next.
• 26:54
  SPEAKER_00: And hopefully we'll see you in Australia.
• 26:57
  SPEAKER_00: And this needs to be driven here a hundred percent.
• 26:59
  SPEAKER_00: So let's get let's get thinking get our thinking caps on on that one.
• 27:04
  SPEAKER_01: Well, that that would be wonderful.
• 27:06
  SPEAKER_01: Um, it would be it would be great.
• 27:07
  SPEAKER_01: And um, yeah, I mean, my my my plan between you and I is to come down to 2025 because the lions tour is on.
• 27:14
  SPEAKER_01: So I'm gonna find a way to well that makes sense.
• 27:17
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, you know, like when you've got a mission, you've got a mission.
• 27:20
  SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
• 27:21
  SPEAKER_01: Um not that I'm obsessed with Lugwing.
• 27:24
  SPEAKER_01: But um, so yeah, no, we do, we do, we do want to bring it down.
• 27:27
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, look, I think a lot of your listeners uh are our educators, are involved in the education space.
• 27:32
  SPEAKER_01: I'd really encourage you to go and look at the research base around this.
• 27:37
  SPEAKER_01: And um, because initially I was really skeptical about it.
• 27:40
  SPEAKER_01: I think most people could and will be, should be.
• 27:43
  SPEAKER_01: Go and have a look at turnonsubtitles.org forward slash research.
• 27:47
  SPEAKER_01: And there's there's a couple of synopses of of you know all the meta studies uh on this.
• 27:52
  SPEAKER_01: It's pretty compelling.
• 27:54
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, and then once you're once you're on board, go go grab some of the resources on the website.
• 27:59
  SPEAKER_01: They're all free and just share them, share them as wide as you can.
• 28:03
  SPEAKER_00: Because actually, that's the best thing.
• 28:04
  SPEAKER_00: If I I was my next question was what can people do?
• 28:07
  SPEAKER_00: And that's what they can do, which is what you've just outlined.
• 28:10
  SPEAKER_01: Go go find parents who've got young kids.
• 28:13
  SPEAKER_01: Tell them that's it.
• 28:15
  SPEAKER_00: I love this.
• 28:16
  SPEAKER_00: I think it's really exciting and innovative, and I wish you the best of luck, and I'm sure we'll hear more and we'll get you back on the podcast again to hear how things are tracking and hopefully get you down for a little bit of um rugby, but also turn on the subtitles.
• 28:34
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you so much for your time.
• 28:38
  SPEAKER_00: Enjoy the UK and uh the day ahead.
• 28:42
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you.
• 28:43
  SPEAKER_01: Absolute pleasure.
• 28:52
  SPEAKER_00: Well, at the World Literacy Foundation, we believe in literacy is the foundation of lifelong learning and education.
• 28:59
  SPEAKER_00: People who cannot read or write experience difficulties with simple everyday tasks, such as reading the label of a medicine bottle, filling in a job application, or understanding a traffic sign.
• 29:09
  SPEAKER_00: When we help someone to acquire literacy skills, we're empowering them to access to better opportunities in life to break the poverty cycle.
• 29:18
  SPEAKER_00: It's a global organisation in Africa, Latin America, the United States, United Kingdom, and in Australia.
• 29:24
  SPEAKER_00: The World Literacy Foundation is on a mission to ensure that every child, regardless of geographic location, has the opportunity to acquire literacy skills and books to reach their full potential.
• 29:35
  SPEAKER_00: We're striving to eradicate illiteracy by 2040.
• 29:39
  SPEAKER_00: Reading and writing should just be a basic right, not a privilege.
• 29:44
  SPEAKER_00: So please, if you're interested, head to our website at the World Literacy Foundation to see what is happening globally, this extraordinary organisation, when we realise that there are 750 million people who cannot read and write.
• 29:57
  SPEAKER_00: So see if you can contribute and make a difference.