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Dolls and Dolls, Guys! · Stuff You Should Know

• 0:01
  Speaker 1: Welcome to stuff you should know a production of iHeartRadio.
• 0:11
  Speaker 2: Hey, well I should say Merry Christmas and welcome to
• 0:14
  Speaker 2: the podcast. I'm Josh, and there's Chuck and Cherry's here too,
• 0:18
  Speaker 2: and we bid you good tidings. You're decking your halls
• 0:23
  Speaker 2: and giving you lots of joy on this festive day.
• 0:28
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, we're decking your halls if you give us content,
• 0:31
  Speaker 1: of course to do so. Sure we would never deck halls.
• 0:34
  Speaker 1: Just willy nilly, No, I mean, oh, we're good guys.
• 0:40
  Speaker 2: That's right. Wow, this got odd very quickly.
• 0:46
  Speaker 1: This is our annual sort of toy episode, and we've
• 0:50
  Speaker 1: covered some specific dolls in the past, notably Cabbage Patch Kids,
• 0:54
  Speaker 1: and you had the brainstorm like what about just dolls?
• 0:57
  Speaker 1: What the heck is up with those weird little things.
• 1:00
  Speaker 2: I sat up in the middle of the night one
• 1:03
  Speaker 2: night and went dolls, right, and he.
• 1:05
  Speaker 1: Was like, that's what happened, and she was holding a
• 1:10
  Speaker 1: chatty Cathy.
• 1:11
  Speaker 2: That's right. Oh, I can't wait to get to that part.
• 1:14
  Speaker 2: Oh my gosh. Yeah, we're talking about dolls themselves, and
• 1:18
  Speaker 2: it is a pretty broad category. But actually it's a
• 1:21
  Speaker 2: little more specific than I realized. Chuck and One of
• 1:24
  Speaker 2: the things that right off the bat that I had
• 1:27
  Speaker 2: no idea about is that there's almost no specific definition
• 1:31
  Speaker 2: of dolls. No one can can make an actual set definition.
• 1:34
  Speaker 2: The reason why is because you're like, well what about this?
• 1:37
  Speaker 2: Well what about that? Anytime you try to alter the
• 1:40
  Speaker 2: definition to please everybody, it's the best example of how
• 1:45
  Speaker 2: you can please some people some of the time, but
• 1:49
  Speaker 2: not everybody ever.
• 1:51
  Speaker 1: That old saying, yeah, that old saying. The definition that
• 1:55
  Speaker 1: we agreed on was a doll is a toy, and
• 2:00
  Speaker 1: we all know what a doll looks like. It's like
• 2:02
  Speaker 1: a model of usually a human type figure.
• 2:05
  Speaker 2: I saw that it has to be human to be
• 2:07
  Speaker 2: considered a doll.
• 2:08
  Speaker 1: Sometimes it's a baby, sometimes it's a grown up. It's
• 2:11
  Speaker 1: not an action figure. We kind of covered that difference
• 2:13
  Speaker 1: in our Gi Joe episode. But what a dolls specifically
• 2:17
  Speaker 1: is beyond just looking like a human is it aids
• 2:19
  Speaker 1: in kids development. There have been plenty and plenty of
• 2:22
  Speaker 1: studies over the years that have reinforced the fact that
• 2:26
  Speaker 1: dolls teach kids a lot of things, a lot of
• 2:29
  Speaker 1: great things, empathy and patience and recognizing emotions, among many
• 2:34
  Speaker 1: other things.
• 2:35
  Speaker 2: Yes, so just real quick that excludes. That definition excludes
• 2:39
  Speaker 2: things like puppets like you said, action figure statuettes, but
• 2:43
  Speaker 2: it also, I think, very weirdly excludes animal dolls like
• 2:48
  Speaker 2: stuffed animals. Okay, okay. And then one other thing I
• 2:53
  Speaker 2: would add to the definition is that they have to
• 2:55
  Speaker 2: be in some way, shape or form huggable.
• 2:58
  Speaker 1: Okay. It So, recognizing emotions is a big one for kids,
• 3:04
  Speaker 1: as long as holding onto dolls like reckon, because a
• 3:07
  Speaker 1: lot of times the kid will be like the surrogate
• 3:10
  Speaker 1: for what the kid might be feeling. You know, Chatty
• 3:13
  Speaker 1: Kathy is feeling bored or angry, and that means the
• 3:17
  Speaker 1: kid's not comfortable saying that to the parents, so they
• 3:19
  Speaker 1: talk through the doll, but not in a creepy way.
• 3:22
  Speaker 2: Is Chatty Kathy your go to doll?
• 3:25
  Speaker 1: M so far, I'll move on to Betsy Wetsy soon enough.
• 3:29
  Speaker 2: Chatty Kathy is pretty fun to say.
• 3:31
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 3:31
  Speaker 2: Another thing this is also I think a playroom Collective
• 3:35
  Speaker 2: laid out some good examples and these are some of
• 3:37
  Speaker 2: the ones that they said. Another one is practicing caregiving,
• 3:40
  Speaker 2: where it can be anything from changing the doll's diapers
• 3:44
  Speaker 2: to comforting the doll when it's sad or scared, and
• 3:48
  Speaker 2: that teaches emotional availability, teaches problem solving, and then it
• 3:53
  Speaker 2: also requires perspective taking, because just because the doll is
• 3:57
  Speaker 2: scared or sad doesn't mean the kid feels it way
• 4:00
  Speaker 2: right right then, so that means that the kid is
• 4:03
  Speaker 2: learning how to put themselves in other people's shoes and
• 4:06
  Speaker 2: understand how other people can feel differently than how you
• 4:09
  Speaker 2: can at the time, and it helps with empathy.
• 4:13
  Speaker 1: Yeah, they can put themselves in their tiny, little one
• 4:15
  Speaker 1: inch shiny pat and leather shoe. That's right, that chatty
• 4:19
  Speaker 1: Kathy has right. If you you know, want to talk
• 4:25
  Speaker 1: about traditional gender roles, we're going to talk a lot
• 4:27
  Speaker 1: about that. Because dolls have long been associated with girlhood.
• 4:32
  Speaker 1: That wasn't always the case. It started by like the
• 4:35
  Speaker 1: nineteen forties. By the turn of the century, toys were
• 4:38
  Speaker 1: kind of marketed, you know, to boys and girls equally.
• 4:42
  Speaker 1: But in the nineteen forties they were like, hey, we
• 4:44
  Speaker 1: could probably sell a lot more stuff if we really
• 4:47
  Speaker 1: market one thing to girls and one thing to boys.
• 4:50
  Speaker 1: And then all of a sudden, we're buying twice as
• 4:52
  Speaker 1: much stuff.
• 4:53
  Speaker 2: In that nuts. That's that's apparently where gender toys came from.
• 4:56
  Speaker 2: Totally Around that same time, too, pink became the color
• 5:00
  Speaker 2: for girls and blue for boys. And it didn't come
• 5:03
  Speaker 2: from nowhere. We've talked about it before, but it used
• 5:05
  Speaker 2: to be the opposite where pink was for boys and
• 5:08
  Speaker 2: blue for girls because pink it was a red tone,
• 5:11
  Speaker 2: and red tones were considered too harsh for girls at
• 5:13
  Speaker 2: the time.
• 5:14
  Speaker 1: That's right. I never thought of pink being a red tone,
• 5:17
  Speaker 1: but it totally is.
• 5:18
  Speaker 2: Yeah, for sure, you can't deny it, Chuck.
• 5:22
  Speaker 1: There was a study in twenty seventeen that more than
• 5:24
  Speaker 1: this is interesting, more than three quarters of the people
• 5:26
  Speaker 1: that were surveyed said it was really good to encourage
• 5:30
  Speaker 1: girls to play with like boys, toys or do boy things,
• 5:36
  Speaker 1: and it went up to eighty percent for women and
• 5:39
  Speaker 1: millennials saying that, but when it came to boys only
• 5:42
  Speaker 1: sixty four percent. So there are far fewer families saying,
• 5:45
  Speaker 1: you know, William, you should play with your doll reference
• 5:49
  Speaker 1: to Free to Be You and Me, the great song
• 5:50
  Speaker 1: William Wants a Doll, And there are way way more
• 5:53
  Speaker 1: families telling their girls like, you should go play with
• 5:55
  Speaker 1: trucks or rough house.
• 5:56
  Speaker 2: Yeah, go jump off that dirt pile.
• 5:58
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 6:00
  Speaker 2: So yeah, that clearly means we have a long way
• 6:03
  Speaker 2: to go still, but there, you know, there are a
• 6:06
  Speaker 2: lot of dolls that have made headway in empowering girls,
• 6:12
  Speaker 2: showing that women can take like male of jobs and
• 6:16
  Speaker 2: male dominated feels like Barbie has a million different careers,
• 6:20
  Speaker 2: a lot of them like engineering and science and technology.
• 6:23
  Speaker 2: She's been to space, for God's sake, And I think
• 6:27
  Speaker 2: American girl dolls, there's one girl at least who has
• 6:30
  Speaker 2: a backstory where she has lesbian aunts who live in Australia.
• 6:35
  Speaker 2: Randomly enough, and then of course, Chuck, we couldn't possibly
• 6:38
  Speaker 2: talk about how Earring magic Kin was in a groundbreaking doll.
• 6:42
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean Earring magic Ken came out nineteen ninety three.
• 6:47
  Speaker 1: You take one look at Earring magic Ken and it's
• 6:49
  Speaker 1: pretty clear that it's a queer coded doll. He has
• 6:53
  Speaker 1: his diamond stud earring in one ear. He's wearing a
• 6:56
  Speaker 1: purple mesh crop top. There was some controversy surrounding the
• 7:01
  Speaker 1: necklace he wore that I won't even get into because
• 7:04
  Speaker 1: this is a Christmas episode, but you can look it
• 7:06
  Speaker 1: up if you wants. Saw that too, and of course
• 7:09
  Speaker 1: Mittel was like, that's preposterous. This is a kid's story,
• 7:12
  Speaker 1: but it was very hot in the gay community, selling
• 7:16
  Speaker 1: out all over the place. Maybe the hottest selling well,
• 7:20
  Speaker 1: definitely the hottest selling kin doll of all time, maybe
• 7:22
  Speaker 1: the best selling of all time. Mattel won't say, but
• 7:25
  Speaker 1: it's sold for six months like any ordinary sort of
• 7:28
  Speaker 1: special release Barbie, and evidently sold like hotcakes.
• 7:32
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and one other feature that was often overlooked. He
• 7:35
  Speaker 2: had a pull cord that made him talk, and the
• 7:37
  Speaker 2: only thing he said is the boys are out tonight.
• 7:42
  Speaker 2: So Chuck, I say we move on to the history
• 7:44
  Speaker 2: of dolls. You want to talk about that, or even
• 7:47
  Speaker 2: where the word doll came from.
• 7:49
  Speaker 1: Yeah, this is something I didn't know. It's a doll
• 7:51
  Speaker 1: was a nickname for Dorothy. I always thought dot was
• 7:54
  Speaker 1: the only nickname for Dorothy. But apparently dating back to
• 7:58
  Speaker 1: like at least the sixteenth century, that was a weird
• 8:01
  Speaker 1: thing happening when people would substitute l's for rs. So
• 8:04
  Speaker 1: Harold could be how Mary could be moll or Molly
• 8:08
  Speaker 1: and Dorothy could be doll.
• 8:09
  Speaker 2: Yeah. It was a bigger tren than slap bracelets is today.
• 8:13
  Speaker 1: Oh wow.
• 8:14
  Speaker 2: So the earliest use of the word doll goes back
• 8:17
  Speaker 2: to the fifteen hundreds, and it was a pet name
• 8:20
  Speaker 2: for a girlfriend or spouse. Right, You didn't just have
• 8:23
  Speaker 2: to be named Dorothy and that be your nickname.
• 8:25
  Speaker 1: It was extended, give me a doll, yeah, doll face for.
• 8:29
  Speaker 2: Ye exactly right. So you're like, it's a term of
• 8:32
  Speaker 2: endearment for a girlfriend or a spouse. A century later
• 8:35
  Speaker 2: it became an insult for a loose woman. So everybody
• 8:38
  Speaker 2: got dumped apparently. And then by around seventeen hundred it
• 8:43
  Speaker 2: was finally used to describe a child's toy, to say,
• 8:46
  Speaker 2: this is a doll, and people are like, well, wait
• 8:48
  Speaker 2: a minute, what about stuffed animals? What about marionettes?
• 8:52
  Speaker 1: Then someone said, you think a puppet is a doll?
• 8:56
  Speaker 2: Yeah? They said, had a psychle? Are you?
• 8:57
  Speaker 1: So many people think that they're going to have to
• 8:59
  Speaker 1: explain that on a one day.
• 9:02
  Speaker 2: They're like, you think a hot dog is a sandwich?
• 9:04
  Speaker 1: Why is that doll got strings coming out of it? Well?
• 9:08
  Speaker 1: Speaking of strings, yeah, there's some strings in these dolls.
• 9:12
  Speaker 1: Ancient dolls Egyptian paddle dolls that date back to the
• 9:16
  Speaker 1: Middle Kingdom like two thousand to eighteen hundred BCE. They
• 9:20
  Speaker 1: were a flat piece of wood, so they weren't, you know,
• 9:24
  Speaker 1: human shaped as far as three dimension three dimensionality goes,
• 9:27
  Speaker 1: but they were cut like a woman's torso, and they
• 9:31
  Speaker 1: had tattoo like designs and hair made out of bead strings.
• 9:36
  Speaker 1: But archaeologists are like, this isn't really a doll doll.
• 9:39
  Speaker 1: I think it was more like a percussion instrument for
• 9:42
  Speaker 1: like religious rituals. You could shake that thing.
• 9:45
  Speaker 2: They do think in the ancient world that dolls played
• 9:48
  Speaker 2: dual roles. One was for rituals like you were just describing,
• 9:51
  Speaker 2: and then also that they were for play in the
• 9:54
  Speaker 2: same way that dolls can develop children today. They were
• 9:57
  Speaker 2: used to kind of indoctrinate kids into culture and society.
• 10:01
  Speaker 2: And they're basing that in part on how there's still
• 10:04
  Speaker 2: dolls like that around today, like the a Kua Ba
• 10:07
  Speaker 2: of the Fonte and Acan people of Ghana. They have
• 10:10
  Speaker 2: ritual dolls that kids also play with at the same time.
• 10:14
  Speaker 1: Yeah, well, the dolls in ancient Rome were definitely sort
• 10:18
  Speaker 1: of the early barbies because they were not baby dolls.
• 10:21
  Speaker 1: They were dolls that looked like grown up Roman women,
• 10:24
  Speaker 1: and the girls who played with them were like it
• 10:26
  Speaker 1: was just like having a barbie. It was like here
• 10:29
  Speaker 1: is what we think. The idealized image of a Roman
• 10:31
  Speaker 1: woman is a wife and a mother, and here go
• 10:35
  Speaker 1: play with this thing and try and look like that
• 10:37
  Speaker 1: one day.
• 10:39
  Speaker 2: So even before the Romans, they found dolls in Greek burials,
• 10:45
  Speaker 2: and the reason why they found them is because girls
• 10:48
  Speaker 2: would play with dolls. When they got married, they would consecrate,
• 10:51
  Speaker 2: they would sacrifice essentially the dolls to Artemis in exchange
• 10:55
  Speaker 2: for fertility in their marriage, and then if they never
• 10:58
  Speaker 2: got married, they were buried with their dolls. Isn't that bittersweet?
• 11:04
  Speaker 1: Mmm? Kind of just bitter? Okay, I'm looking for the sweet.
• 11:09
  Speaker 1: I guess you're buried with your toy that you loved.
• 11:11
  Speaker 2: Yeah, that's a sweet part, for sure. It's like the
• 11:14
  Speaker 2: newgat of that situation.
• 11:16
  Speaker 1: All right, I'll take it. All right. We promised talk
• 11:19
  Speaker 1: of Aerosmith, and they're a great, great, great song rag Doll.
• 11:24
  Speaker 1: I thought the same thing too, coming up and see me.
• 11:29
  Speaker 2: That's a new version of an old singing.
• 11:33
  Speaker 1: Oh, I guess that song's okay. That was late Aerosmith.
• 11:36
  Speaker 1: They put out a bunch of songs like that for
• 11:37
  Speaker 1: a while.
• 11:38
  Speaker 2: Oh, I can't imagine how bad the subtext.
• 11:41
  Speaker 1: Is though, Oh, sure. I never really thought about that,
• 11:44
  Speaker 1: but you're right, I think yeah, I don't know if
• 11:46
  Speaker 1: there is an Aerosmith song where there wasn't a sexual subtext,
• 11:49
  Speaker 1: you know, I don't.
• 11:50
  Speaker 2: Think so either they were really into sex.
• 11:52
  Speaker 1: Oh no, that loving an elevator song that was just
• 11:55
  Speaker 1: anging about elevators going up and down.
• 11:57
  Speaker 2: That's right, sponsored by the Otis Corporation.
• 12:00
  Speaker 1: That's right. Oh man, I'm glad you could call that up.
• 12:05
  Speaker 1: Rag dolls not Aerosmith, but you know, the little floppy
• 12:09
  Speaker 1: dolls made out of fabric and not you know, hard
• 12:12
  Speaker 1: dolls that you can bang against the wall. They have
• 12:16
  Speaker 1: been around for a long long time, since the ancient world.
• 12:18
  Speaker 1: But because they were made out of things like you know,
• 12:21
  Speaker 1: cloth and linen and cotton and things like that, they
• 12:24
  Speaker 1: would disappear before our very eyes over thousands of years.
• 12:28
  Speaker 1: So there's not a ton of examples of those, but
• 12:30
  Speaker 1: there are some, right, Yeah.
• 12:31
  Speaker 2: But it also raises the question like how long have
• 12:34
  Speaker 2: humans been playing with dolls? We have no idea for
• 12:37
  Speaker 2: that very reason, because almost certainly dolls would have been
• 12:40
  Speaker 2: made out of perishable materials very early on. But yeah,
• 12:44
  Speaker 2: the oldest we found is two thousand years old. Chuck.
• 12:46
  Speaker 2: It was found in a trash pile in Egypt, and
• 12:52
  Speaker 2: it was linen stuff with some papyrus. I had some
• 12:55
  Speaker 2: paint on it at one point, but now all that's left.
• 12:58
  Speaker 2: There's a single bead that was once attached to its hair.
• 13:02
  Speaker 2: So but it's two thousand years old, so give it
• 13:04
  Speaker 2: a break, you.
• 13:05
  Speaker 1: Know, Yeah, sure of course.
• 13:07
  Speaker 2: Well what about in North America, there's a doll that
• 13:09
  Speaker 2: says I'm the oldest, and everyone says, yes, you are.
• 13:12
  Speaker 1: Yes, that's right. There is a rag doll, the oldest
• 13:15
  Speaker 1: rag doll in North America. It belonged to a little
• 13:17
  Speaker 1: girl who was blind named clarissas Field from Massachusetts. And
• 13:21
  Speaker 1: the girl, the actual girl, was born in seventeen sixty five.
• 13:25
  Speaker 1: And I think this is a great deep cut band name.
• 13:28
  Speaker 1: She named her doll Bangwell Putt.
• 13:30
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it is a great band name for sure.
• 13:33
  Speaker 1: Because no one will know what it is except for
• 13:35
  Speaker 1: the rare stuff. You should know a listener and then
• 13:37
  Speaker 1: be like, bruh, you named your band Bangwell Butt after
• 13:40
  Speaker 1: the oldest rag doll.
• 13:42
  Speaker 2: Or Visitors to the Pacomattock Valley Memorial Association in Deerfield,
• 13:47
  Speaker 2: mass which is where it's kept now.
• 13:49
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I guess they would know that, but they're the
• 13:52
  Speaker 1: I guess you could call it creepy looking. I didn't
• 13:54
  Speaker 1: find it that creepy. But this dog, this dog, this
• 13:57
  Speaker 1: doll has no facial features. There's just a blank face.
• 14:02
  Speaker 1: But there are ten individually sewn fingers and thumbs, which
• 14:07
  Speaker 1: might be a reason that young Clarissa, like I mentioned,
• 14:11
  Speaker 1: she was blind and it might have sort of indicated
• 14:15
  Speaker 1: the importance of touch for her.
• 14:18
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I saw that the no face rag doll may
• 14:23
  Speaker 2: have actually evolved out of the tradition from corn husk dolls,
• 14:27
  Speaker 2: which didn't have faces, because some of the northeastern North
• 14:31
  Speaker 2: America tribes had legends about why the corn goddess removed
• 14:37
  Speaker 2: the face of the corn husk doll because she was
• 14:41
  Speaker 2: getting too vain. So that's why cornhust dolls don't have
• 14:43
  Speaker 2: a face, and that's possibly why rag doll dolls don't
• 14:47
  Speaker 2: have a face either, Like bangwill putt.
• 14:49
  Speaker 1: Like Bangwell put would to be clear, no facial features.
• 14:52
  Speaker 1: There's a face, but there's no eyes, nose, or mouth
• 14:54
  Speaker 1: or you know, eyebrows, all the things that make a face.
• 14:58
  Speaker 1: What about eyelashes, No eyelashes, no pimples, no freckles, pores,
• 15:04
  Speaker 1: no frinkles, no wrinkles, no pores. What else is on
• 15:08
  Speaker 1: the face. I'm looking at my face.
• 15:10
  Speaker 2: Um nose, hair, beard.
• 15:12
  Speaker 1: Nose, hair, mustache. All right, I think we covered it.
• 15:16
  Speaker 2: Okay, I know for a fact we left something like
• 15:20
  Speaker 2: the mouth out, something super glaring.
• 15:22
  Speaker 1: Oh, I said mouth, and inside the mouth everything counts
• 15:25
  Speaker 1: his mouth. So don't come at me with teeth and
• 15:27
  Speaker 1: tongue exactly.
• 15:28
  Speaker 2: I'm glad you said that chuck.
• 15:30
  Speaker 1: That should be on the shirt. Don't come at me
• 15:31
  Speaker 1: with teeth and tongue. It's the stuff you should know. Whey, Yeah,
• 15:36
  Speaker 1: what about Victorian dolls.
• 15:39
  Speaker 2: Well, this is where really where doll obsessions I think
• 15:44
  Speaker 2: kind of starting to take off, because up to this
• 15:46
  Speaker 2: point rag dolls, like you got to be a pretty
• 15:48
  Speaker 2: niche collector to be collecting like eighteenth century rag dolls.
• 15:52
  Speaker 2: Victorian dolls is where people are like, give me all
• 15:55
  Speaker 2: of these. And one of the reasons why is because
• 15:59
  Speaker 2: doll making became a real art by the fifteenth century,
• 16:04
  Speaker 2: and the seat of it originally was Germany. They had
• 16:06
  Speaker 2: doc and mockers, which are doll makers, and they were
• 16:11
  Speaker 2: for aristocratic families who were the only ones that could
• 16:13
  Speaker 2: afford these things because they were works of art.
• 16:17
  Speaker 1: Yeah, works of art that very key Lee looked like them.
• 16:22
  Speaker 1: They really showed their sort of obsession with their own
• 16:26
  Speaker 1: selves and their own class. They were made from porcelain,
• 16:30
  Speaker 1: and not because that was just some superior material. They
• 16:33
  Speaker 1: were literally made from porcelain because they thought that represented
• 16:36
  Speaker 1: the ideal skin tone, that porcelain white. They were dressed
• 16:41
  Speaker 1: very fashionably obviously, they had human hair wigs, apparently from
• 16:45
  Speaker 1: the hair of working class girls. And they were true
• 16:49
  Speaker 1: status symbols.
• 16:50
  Speaker 2: Yeah, like you would be painted with them a portrait.
• 16:54
  Speaker 2: That's pretty big status symbol at.
• 16:56
  Speaker 1: The time, right, Yeah, for sure.
• 16:58
  Speaker 2: So one of my favorite things Dave helped us with this.
• 17:01
  Speaker 2: Think big head tip to Dave and Merry Christmas Day.
• 17:06
  Speaker 2: And apparently around the time of Prince Albert's death he
• 17:11
  Speaker 2: was trapped in a can. He died in eighteen sixty one.
• 17:14
  Speaker 2: It's Queen Victoria's husband. By the way, like funerals in
• 17:18
  Speaker 2: mourning like became all the rage we often associate like
• 17:22
  Speaker 2: mourning and death stuff and memento mariy with Victorians and
• 17:27
  Speaker 2: this is why, and so dolls were not immune to
• 17:31
  Speaker 2: this trend. And little girls were given death kits to
• 17:34
  Speaker 2: use with their dolls.
• 17:36
  Speaker 1: Yeah, so like here's your doll, and here's your little
• 17:38
  Speaker 1: baby coffin and your little outfit that you should wear,
• 17:41
  Speaker 1: and they would you know, when you play doll, you
• 17:44
  Speaker 1: play all kinds of facets of life. And that's one
• 17:46
  Speaker 1: of the things about dolls that you'll see over and
• 17:48
  Speaker 1: over is you know, whether you're pretending to be a
• 17:53
  Speaker 1: you know, cooking dinner in your home, or you're doing
• 17:57
  Speaker 1: other household things, or you're you know, now your mourning
• 18:00
  Speaker 1: because somebody has died, so you're sort of acting out
• 18:03
  Speaker 1: and these things that you would do later as adults,
• 18:05
  Speaker 1: which again is another sort of important facet of dolls.
• 18:09
  Speaker 2: But today it's like, if your kid is acting out
• 18:11
  Speaker 2: a funeral with their doll, it would be eye catching,
• 18:15
  Speaker 2: attention grabbing, I think.
• 18:17
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, you might sign them up for therapy
• 18:19
  Speaker 1: or something, when in fact I think it's a pretty
• 18:21
  Speaker 1: normal thing.
• 18:22
  Speaker 2: I think it is too, but it would definitely make
• 18:24
  Speaker 2: you stop and say, like, hey, what you doing with
• 18:28
  Speaker 2: your doll right now? Yeah, for sure, Like you wouldn't
• 18:30
  Speaker 2: just pass the room and see it and just walk
• 18:33
  Speaker 2: off shaking your head and laughing and be like my kid.
• 18:35
  Speaker 1: Yeah, you do the darnest things.
• 18:38
  Speaker 2: I want to hear though, if anybody has a kid
• 18:40
  Speaker 2: and they've ever found their kid performing a funeral for
• 18:43
  Speaker 2: their doll, I want to hear about it.
• 18:45
  Speaker 1: Yeah, that'd be a good listener mail.
• 18:47
  Speaker 2: So, dollhouses also really kind of came around at this
• 18:50
  Speaker 2: time too, like the dollhouse, as we think about it, Yeah,
• 18:54
  Speaker 2: and that was thanks to the Victorians. And that's why
• 18:56
  Speaker 2: dollhouses are always very nice and big, because they were
• 19:01
  Speaker 2: basically what the Victorian aristocracy thought that houses should look
• 19:05
  Speaker 2: like at the time. And again, remember you said that
• 19:08
  Speaker 2: Victorian girls were being trained to how to behave in
• 19:11
  Speaker 2: society through their dolls. Same thing with the dollhouse too.
• 19:15
  Speaker 2: It's like, here's the scullery, here's the bathroom with indoor plumbing,
• 19:19
  Speaker 2: Like these are all the things you need to demand
• 19:21
  Speaker 2: and expect when you grow up and get married.
• 19:24
  Speaker 1: Yeah, ring this bell if you're hungry.
• 19:26
  Speaker 2: Hey.
• 19:27
  Speaker 1: So, you know, we talked a little bit about the
• 19:30
  Speaker 1: complicated history of race and facial features when it comes
• 19:35
  Speaker 1: to race and skin tone and stuff like that with dolls,
• 19:38
  Speaker 1: and so we have a whole kind of robust section
• 19:41
  Speaker 1: here on the history of black dolls, because it's a
• 19:44
  Speaker 1: pretty complex story. Yeah, as far as race and self
• 19:47
  Speaker 1: image goes. And the first one we're going to talk
• 19:51
  Speaker 1: about it is called the topsy Turvy doll. It's a
• 19:53
  Speaker 1: really good example because it was a doll that had
• 19:55
  Speaker 1: two heads. It had a long skirt to conceal sort
• 19:58
  Speaker 1: of one side. One head was white, one head was black.
• 20:03
  Speaker 1: And you know, depending on which way you held the doll,
• 20:05
  Speaker 1: you were playing with a white doll or a black doll.
• 20:07
  Speaker 1: And people, you know, there isn't text that says exactly
• 20:11
  Speaker 1: why this thing was invented, but everyone pretty much agrees,
• 20:14
  Speaker 1: like scholars that have studied this thing, is that it
• 20:17
  Speaker 1: originated in the Antebellum South. They were made by enslaved
• 20:22
  Speaker 1: black women as dolls for their daughters, and the idea is, hey,
• 20:28
  Speaker 1: we have to take care of the white kids during
• 20:30
  Speaker 1: the day, and then we have to take care of
• 20:32
  Speaker 1: our own children at night. And if dolls are to
• 20:35
  Speaker 1: represent what you are to be doing when you grow
• 20:38
  Speaker 1: up or maybe you know later on in your life,
• 20:40
  Speaker 1: then you need a two headed doll to care for
• 20:43
  Speaker 1: the white doll in the day and the black doll
• 20:45
  Speaker 1: at night.
• 20:46
  Speaker 2: Yeah, that's not the worst of how the whole thing started.
• 20:51
  Speaker 2: The Jim Crow South, the Jim Crow era saw the
• 20:55
  Speaker 2: rise of a lot of very racist dolls that were
• 20:57
  Speaker 2: available you could buy from catalogs like Montgomery Ward, which
• 21:02
  Speaker 2: is not surprising. But the thing to understand about that
• 21:06
  Speaker 2: is that this helped lay the groundwork for reinforcing social
• 21:13
  Speaker 2: norms about the inferiority of black people in America and
• 21:19
  Speaker 2: the superiority of white people in America. And it wasn't like, hey, kid,
• 21:23
  Speaker 2: don't forget black people are inferior, White people superior. It
• 21:27
  Speaker 2: was much more subtle and much more pervasive than that
• 21:31
  Speaker 2: through dolls. Like the black dolls were not particularly cute,
• 21:35
  Speaker 2: they were sometimes ugly. They certainly weren't accurate representations of
• 21:40
  Speaker 2: black people or black kids. White dolls were. They were
• 21:44
  Speaker 2: very pretty. There are collector's items. They were gorgeous. In
• 21:46
  Speaker 2: a lot of cases. They were the doll that you wanted,
• 21:49
  Speaker 2: and that sent the signal to black kids being raised
• 21:53
  Speaker 2: in America at the time, like, if you're black, you
• 21:55
  Speaker 2: should feel pretty much about yourself how you feel about
• 21:58
  Speaker 2: this doll, and you should feel about white people how
• 22:00
  Speaker 2: you feel about this doll.
• 22:01
  Speaker 1: Very pretty huh Yeah, exactly. I mean, it makes it
• 22:04
  Speaker 1: all the more nefarious, I think, because these are children,
• 22:08
  Speaker 1: Like the more sublid it is, the more nefarious it is.
• 22:10
  Speaker 1: And this culminated in the nineteen forties with what was
• 22:14
  Speaker 1: called the Doll Tests from Maimy and Kenneth Clark. It
• 22:18
  Speaker 1: was pretty groundbreaking experiments where they traveled all over America
• 22:22
  Speaker 1: and they would give little black kids two dolls that
• 22:25
  Speaker 1: were identical to one another except for the skin tone,
• 22:28
  Speaker 1: and then they would ask him a lot of questions
• 22:30
  Speaker 1: like give me the doll that's a nice doll, give
• 22:32
  Speaker 1: me the doll that you think is a nice color.
• 22:34
  Speaker 1: And overwhelmingly the positive traits from these little black kids
• 22:38
  Speaker 1: were assigned to white dolls, and the negative traits were
• 22:41
  Speaker 1: assigned to black dolls. And the saddest part about all
• 22:45
  Speaker 1: this is when they ask kids, give me the doll
• 22:48
  Speaker 1: that looks like you, A lot of these little kids
• 22:51
  Speaker 1: would were ashamed to admit that they look like the
• 22:54
  Speaker 1: black doll, and they would like start crying and run
• 22:57
  Speaker 1: from the room because they couldn't even admit it. So
• 23:00
  Speaker 1: this was brutal.
• 23:02
  Speaker 2: It is brutal, But it also was this groundbreaking research
• 23:05
  Speaker 2: that the Clarks created.
• 23:07
  Speaker 1: Yeah, for sure.
• 23:08
  Speaker 2: And it was so groundbreaking and so convincing that the
• 23:13
  Speaker 2: NAACP came to them and said, hey, can we use
• 23:16
  Speaker 2: this in these cases. They had five cases going on
• 23:20
  Speaker 2: that eventually got attached into the Brown versus Board of
• 23:23
  Speaker 2: Education case that the Supreme Court eventually heard that was
• 23:26
  Speaker 2: successful with the Nino decision to overturn segregation in public schools.
• 23:33
  Speaker 2: That's how convincing these doll tests were that they were
• 23:37
  Speaker 2: cited in some of these cases. And Kenneth Clark testified
• 23:40
  Speaker 2: at some of the cases as well and wrote up
• 23:42
  Speaker 2: the social science testimony that the Supreme Court considered in
• 23:46
  Speaker 2: the case.
• 23:46
  Speaker 1: Yeah, pretty amazing result from that study. Sarah Lee Creech
• 23:52
  Speaker 1: was a doll maker. I guess who created the Sarah
• 23:54
  Speaker 1: Lee doll in nineteen fifty one, and that was the
• 23:57
  Speaker 1: very first realistic black baby doll produced in the US.
• 24:01
  Speaker 1: But not to be outdone during the Black Power movement,
• 24:04
  Speaker 1: Baby Nancy came along and that was kind of in
• 24:08
  Speaker 1: the middle of the sixty five Watts riots. It was
• 24:12
  Speaker 1: a black owned company called Shindana Toys and it was
• 24:15
  Speaker 1: the very first doll with realistic afrocentric features. It was
• 24:20
  Speaker 1: not like, hey, let's run a run of white dolls
• 24:23
  Speaker 1: and then just change the skin tone and color them brown.
• 24:27
  Speaker 1: This Baby Nancy was a little black baby doll, and
• 24:31
  Speaker 1: it was a really hot selling doll in La and beyond.
• 24:35
  Speaker 1: I think the production couldn't keep up that year because
• 24:38
  Speaker 1: they were such a hot sellers.
• 24:39
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it was a great success for sure. And the
• 24:41
  Speaker 2: Sarah Lee doll. Again, this was the first like semi
• 24:44
  Speaker 2: accurate doll, but there was still a lot of features
• 24:48
  Speaker 2: that weren't quite what black children look like. The Baby
• 24:52
  Speaker 2: Nancy was like unmistakably had cute, tight little curls, and
• 24:56
  Speaker 2: it was like, this is the first like legitimate African
• 25:01
  Speaker 2: American doll anyone's ever made. Yea, I thought that was
• 25:04
  Speaker 2: pretty cool.
• 25:04
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it's amazing, very cute doll. Actually, So, I mean,
• 25:09
  Speaker 1: I'm not into dolls because you know, I played with trucks, okay,
• 25:13
  Speaker 1: but if I played with dolls, Baby Nancy might be
• 25:16
  Speaker 1: my doll.
• 25:16
  Speaker 2: I can't remember. Did you have a cabbage patch?
• 25:19
  Speaker 1: I did, sort of. We bought a bunch of them
• 25:23
  Speaker 1: when they were handmade by the original Xavier Robert.
• 25:27
  Speaker 2: Sky creepy pantyhose dolls, right.
• 25:30
  Speaker 1: And they assigned a couple of them to me as mine.
• 25:34
  Speaker 1: But they were never like in my room, and it's
• 25:36
  Speaker 1: not like it's like, oh, don't put that in my room.
• 25:39
  Speaker 1: I don't know why they did that. It was weird.
• 25:40
  Speaker 1: They were like, here's Scott's two and your two and
• 25:42
  Speaker 1: here's Michelle's.
• 25:43
  Speaker 2: And don't touch them.
• 25:44
  Speaker 1: I know, I think they're worth a little bit of money. Oh,
• 25:47
  Speaker 1: I'm sure I do remember mine as a little boy
• 25:50
  Speaker 1: and a girl and it's their shirts and I guess
• 25:53
  Speaker 1: the doll whatever they were my little TV star or
• 25:56
  Speaker 1: something like that, so that I don't even know what
• 26:00
  Speaker 1: that means.
• 26:02
  Speaker 2: Let's say, hey, let's move along to paper dolls or
• 26:05
  Speaker 2: do you want to take a break. Now, let's take.
• 26:07
  Speaker 1: A break, and I'm going to look up and see
• 26:09
  Speaker 1: how much those Xabier Roberts dolls are worth of mine,
• 26:13
  Speaker 1: and I'll see if I can list them on eBay
• 26:14
  Speaker 1: and I'll be right back.
• 26:40
  Speaker 2: Okay, we promised talk about paper dolls, and what kind
• 26:44
  Speaker 2: of grinch scrooges would we be if we just didn't
• 26:47
  Speaker 2: deliver on that.
• 26:49
  Speaker 1: That's right?
• 26:51
  Speaker 2: So yeah, paper dolls were this trend from like the
• 26:56
  Speaker 2: Apex was from eighteen ninety to nineteen twenty. But I
• 26:59
  Speaker 2: mean you could find them pretty easily into the nineteen
• 27:03
  Speaker 2: seventies and they're still around today in different forms. But
• 27:07
  Speaker 2: they were like, think about this, what trend can you
• 27:10
  Speaker 2: think of? Chuck? That lasted for thirty years? This is
• 27:14
  Speaker 2: a huge, huge trend.
• 27:16
  Speaker 1: Grunge, No grunge.
• 27:19
  Speaker 2: I will say it was ten years.
• 27:21
  Speaker 1: Tops pet rocks.
• 27:25
  Speaker 2: Pet Rocks is maybe two.
• 27:30
  Speaker 1: That's it. I got nothing else.
• 27:31
  Speaker 2: Okay, that's what I'm saying. That's how massive a trend.
• 27:35
  Speaker 2: Paper dolls were from the late nineteenth century to the
• 27:38
  Speaker 2: early twentieth hotpants, okay, daisy dukes. They've been huge since
• 27:44
  Speaker 2: the seventies, definitely.
• 27:46
  Speaker 1: So paper doll is a doll that you cut out.
• 27:49
  Speaker 1: And the fun thing about paper dolls was, and I
• 27:52
  Speaker 1: guess is if you're still into them, is they would
• 27:57
  Speaker 1: come with different outfits and things, and you would cut
• 27:58
  Speaker 1: out the different outfits and put them over the doll.
• 28:02
  Speaker 1: And that was the fun of it is you could
• 28:04
  Speaker 1: change the clothes, but it wasn't real clothes because it
• 28:06
  Speaker 1: was just sort of free because it came in the
• 28:08
  Speaker 1: magazine or newspaper or whatever.
• 28:10
  Speaker 2: But that was the only fun of it. Don't even
• 28:12
  Speaker 2: try to have any other fun, just put the outfits
• 28:15
  Speaker 2: on and sit there.
• 28:16
  Speaker 1: Yeah, that's kind of it.
• 28:18
  Speaker 2: But luckily there was a bunch of new outfits and
• 28:20
  Speaker 2: they were always coming because this whole thing was basically
• 28:23
  Speaker 2: a way to get people to go buy your newspaper
• 28:26
  Speaker 2: or your magazine. Yeah, in some cases buy your product,
• 28:29
  Speaker 2: like Pillsbury products. You would get a set of these
• 28:33
  Speaker 2: collectible paper dolls and new outfits, and for thirty years
• 28:38
  Speaker 2: people would go buy Pillsbury everything because they had the
• 28:41
  Speaker 2: best paper dolls.
• 28:44
  Speaker 1: Yeah, this still continues. I just realized that. At one point,
• 28:48
  Speaker 1: my friend Meredith, who worked in the fashion industry, got
• 28:51
  Speaker 1: Ruby for Christmas. A little it's like a little fashion kit,
• 28:54
  Speaker 1: and it's kind of like paper dolls, except they're already
• 28:57
  Speaker 1: it's magnetized and they're pre cut. But the whole is
• 29:00
  Speaker 1: that you can put together all these different outfits and
• 29:02
  Speaker 1: like kind of learn about fashion. So it's not that
• 29:04
  Speaker 1: different than paper dolls.
• 29:06
  Speaker 2: No, this is plastic.
• 29:08
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and she sheap enjoyed that for a while.
• 29:10
  Speaker 2: Oh good, who was that they gave her that present?
• 29:13
  Speaker 1: My friend mereth or Anti Meredith. She and Ruby are
• 29:16
  Speaker 1: big buds. Meredith, Yeah, I think you met Meredith. Maybe
• 29:20
  Speaker 1: all right, yeah, you have it at New York Live Shows.
• 29:23
  Speaker 2: Okay, well, great pick Meredith. Yeah, So I say we
• 29:28
  Speaker 2: move on to famous dolls of the twentieth century, Chuck,
• 29:31
  Speaker 2: this is the part I've been waiting for. The well
• 29:35
  Speaker 2: reason we did this episode.
• 29:37
  Speaker 1: You got to start, and we're not gonna spend too
• 29:39
  Speaker 1: much time on QP Doll, except to mention that the
• 29:41
  Speaker 1: QP doll was kind of the first big doll of
• 29:44
  Speaker 1: the twentieth century in nineteen twelve.
• 29:45
  Speaker 2: Right, yeah, and the Great Mayo two by the way.
• 29:49
  Speaker 1: Oh yeah, I tried the QP Mayo because he you
• 29:52
  Speaker 1: what'd you think? It was great? It's not going to
• 29:54
  Speaker 1: replace Dukes for me, but very good.
• 29:56
  Speaker 2: Mayo, it shouldn't. You can love both, Yeah, I do.
• 30:00
  Speaker 2: I think Keupy was huge, so huge that it took
• 30:04
  Speaker 2: Mickey Mouse to topple them him her it.
• 30:08
  Speaker 1: I think Mickey Mouse isn't it no, no, cupie, they're both its, okay,
• 30:14
  Speaker 1: so yeah, well Mickey Mouse isn't now a mouse. Yeah,
• 30:17
  Speaker 1: but he's in it. He's living in that gutter with
• 30:19
  Speaker 1: a clown, okay, in the sewer gutter.
• 30:23
  Speaker 2: So along after that, I think KEP Doll was. I mean,
• 30:27
  Speaker 2: I know Steamboat Willie came out in the twenties. I'm
• 30:30
  Speaker 2: not sure when it was actually Mickey Mouse. Mickey Mouse right,
• 30:33
  Speaker 2: so kep Doll was on top for a while. But
• 30:35
  Speaker 2: even if Mickey Mouse hadn't to come along, Raggedy Ann
• 30:38
  Speaker 2: would have eventually come and pulled a little CuPy doll
• 30:42
  Speaker 2: by her little couple of hairs on the top of
• 30:44
  Speaker 2: her head down from the top spot and take took
• 30:47
  Speaker 2: it over.
• 30:48
  Speaker 1: That's right. Raggedy Ann and her little brother Raggedy Andy
• 30:50
  Speaker 1: were big hits. I had Raggedy Ann and Andy when
• 30:54
  Speaker 1: I was little. It was a children's book from cartoonist
• 30:58
  Speaker 1: Johnny Gruel. He made it for his daughter. It's very
• 31:01
  Speaker 1: Sweet Dolls came out a couple of years later, in
• 31:03
  Speaker 1: nineteen twenty. But they had movie appearances, they had a
• 31:07
  Speaker 1: TV show, they had a Broadway musical in the eighties.
• 31:10
  Speaker 2: What was it about.
• 31:12
  Speaker 1: I don't really know. Raggedy Ann, I guess okay, it
• 31:16
  Speaker 1: was called it was called it might have been called
• 31:19
  Speaker 1: Raggedy Ann, rag Doll or something rag Doll. I didn't
• 31:22
  Speaker 1: look too much into it. I don't think it ran
• 31:23
  Speaker 1: too long.
• 31:24
  Speaker 2: Aerosmith did the score.
• 31:26
  Speaker 1: I'm pretty sure they did the book too.
• 31:28
  Speaker 2: So one other thing about Raggedy ann You know Annabelle
• 31:32
  Speaker 2: from the Conjuring series.
• 31:34
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I never saw that, but I know what you're
• 31:36
  Speaker 1: talking about.
• 31:36
  Speaker 2: You never saw the Conjuring. Oh oh, you're gonna like it, dude.
• 31:42
  Speaker 2: It's one of those very few modern, like good ghost movies.
• 31:48
  Speaker 2: It's all right, good, like like goose pimple stuff. Good.
• 31:53
  Speaker 1: I'm going to conjure up some goose pimples for myself then,
• 31:56
  Speaker 1: I think.
• 31:57
  Speaker 2: And the Conjuring too, was okay, but the first one's
• 31:59
  Speaker 2: very good. I would be very surprised if you don't
• 32:01
  Speaker 2: like it.
• 32:02
  Speaker 1: They'll check it out. Most of my doll scary movies
• 32:04
  Speaker 1: have been Child's Play and Meghan.
• 32:08
  Speaker 2: Okay, Child's Place coming up, don't worry about it. Yeah, yeah, okay.
• 32:12
  Speaker 2: Megan was pretty good too.
• 32:14
  Speaker 1: Yeah, Megan was fun. It wasn't so scary.
• 32:16
  Speaker 2: No, it's no conjuring for sure.
• 32:18
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 32:19
  Speaker 2: So now we're coming to Betsy Wetzy. Just wait for
• 32:22
  Speaker 2: your chatty, Kathy. Let's talk about Betsy Wetzy first.
• 32:25
  Speaker 1: Yeah, Betsy Wetsy was well, let's just say this, Betsy
• 32:31
  Speaker 1: Wetsy could drink, bet you drink you under the table
• 32:34
  Speaker 1: could peepee herself. Betsy Wetsy could cry, so I'd say
• 32:39
  Speaker 1: real human tears, but no cry fake tears. Yeah. This
• 32:43
  Speaker 1: was from a company called Ideal in nineteen thirty seven.
• 32:46
  Speaker 1: An Ideal got sued a few times because they had
• 32:50
  Speaker 1: other dolls out there that could cry and that could
• 32:53
  Speaker 1: pee themselves and drink. But apparently Idea was like, but
• 32:56
  Speaker 1: can they do all of that?
• 32:59
  Speaker 2: Right? Yeah, Betsy West. It was a huge smash hit.
• 33:03
  Speaker 2: I think she was most popular in the fifties, but
• 33:06
  Speaker 2: you could find her on the shelves through the eighties
• 33:09
  Speaker 2: and you would give her a little bottle. She had
• 33:12
  Speaker 2: a tube running through her, so the bottle of whatever,
• 33:15
  Speaker 2: hopefully water if you were a parent, and not actual milk,
• 33:19
  Speaker 2: would go through her little tube and come out the
• 33:21
  Speaker 2: other end, and then you would get to change your
• 33:24
  Speaker 2: diaper or maybe give her a bath or something like that.
• 33:26
  Speaker 2: And what must start all over again?
• 33:29
  Speaker 1: That's right, not to be undone. In the early nineties,
• 33:32
  Speaker 1: Magic Potty Baby came out, and I think I remember
• 33:35
  Speaker 1: this actually because this was a It didn't peep here itself,
• 33:40
  Speaker 1: but there was a toilet that came with it, and
• 33:43
  Speaker 1: it was all about toilet training, of course, but the
• 33:45
  Speaker 1: toilet would fill up with this you know, fake yellow liquor.
• 33:48
  Speaker 1: It wouldn't fake. It was a real yellow liquid. I
• 33:50
  Speaker 1: guess fake urine. I hope it was fake urine. And
• 33:53
  Speaker 1: every tasted it, and the doll would sit on it
• 33:57
  Speaker 1: and then you would flesh it and it would disappear
• 33:59
  Speaker 1: back in too. That it's a temporary holding tank.
• 34:02
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and you're like, oh, that sounds kind of weird.
• 34:04
  Speaker 2: Go watch the ad for Magic Potty Baby, and for
• 34:08
  Speaker 2: some reason, it's just it's even more bizarre when you
• 34:12
  Speaker 2: see it in person. Yeah, I agreed, Okay, Chuck, I
• 34:16
  Speaker 2: think now it's time for Chatty Kathy, which I didn't
• 34:19
  Speaker 2: realize was a follow up a year after Barbie came out.
• 34:23
  Speaker 2: And this was a Ruth Handler joint too.
• 34:25
  Speaker 1: That's right. This was a Mattel product along with Barbie.
• 34:30
  Speaker 1: And you know Chatty Kathy. It was chatty and talked
• 34:33
  Speaker 1: so you would pull a string and there were I
• 34:35
  Speaker 1: think eleven initial phrases, I hurt myself, please brush my hair.
• 34:41
  Speaker 2: That was a great Chatty Kathy.
• 34:43
  Speaker 1: That was it. That was Chatty Kathy.
• 34:46
  Speaker 2: Chatty Kathy. Get This was not the first doll to
• 34:50
  Speaker 2: talk as far back as Thomas Edison and I think
• 34:54
  Speaker 2: eighteen ninety he tried his hand at one and he
• 34:59
  Speaker 2: had different dolls that said a few different things. But
• 35:03
  Speaker 2: we turned up a clip of the doll that read,
• 35:07
  Speaker 2: I guess the Lord's Prayer, and I chuck, we have
• 35:12
  Speaker 2: to share it because I haven't laughed out loud in
• 35:14
  Speaker 2: a really long time.
• 35:16
  Speaker 1: Yeah, we don't play clips a lot, so I think
• 35:19
  Speaker 1: we're probably legally okay to play this clip. So Jerry,
• 35:22
  Speaker 1: can you run that? So? Wow?
• 35:46
  Speaker 2: Like, imagine that coming out of a doll you're holding
• 35:49
  Speaker 2: and it's dark, like there's no light in your room
• 35:52
  Speaker 2: because it's nighttime, and your doll starts saying that.
• 35:55
  Speaker 1: Yeah, Or imagine as you're just in a dark room
• 35:57
  Speaker 1: and hear that and you turn on your Edison and
• 36:00
  Speaker 1: that's the only thing in.
• 36:01
  Speaker 2: There, right, it's just sitting in the rocking chair looking
• 36:04
  Speaker 2: at you, rocking slightly back and forth. Or even worse,
• 36:07
  Speaker 2: it's sitting in the wicker wheelchair in the for some reason,
• 36:11
  Speaker 2: staring at you your biggest fear.
• 36:13
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, pretty good stuff.
• 36:16
  Speaker 2: I agree, So Chatty Kathy back to her, she was
• 36:21
  Speaker 2: actually an inspiration for a very famous Twilight Zone episode
• 36:25
  Speaker 2: Living Doll. Do you remember that one?
• 36:27
  Speaker 1: I don't remember that, but I did watch the clip.
• 36:30
  Speaker 2: It's good. So this was Talky Tina, and this is
• 36:33
  Speaker 2: like three years after Chatty Kathy came out, very clearly
• 36:36
  Speaker 2: Chatty Kathy. Yeah, and she has this kind of protective
• 36:43
  Speaker 2: feeling around her kid and doesn't like the kid's parents.
• 36:46
  Speaker 2: And at one point they pull the doll's cord and
• 36:49
  Speaker 2: she says, my name is Talki Tina, and I'm beginning
• 36:52
  Speaker 2: to hate you. It's a really good Twilight Zone episode,
• 36:58
  Speaker 2: which I can't really think of a bad Twilight its
• 37:00
  Speaker 2: own episode, but this one is particularly good.
• 37:03
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it was good.
• 37:04
  Speaker 2: I found two other things about or one other thing
• 37:06
  Speaker 2: I guess about Chatty Kathy. Did you see the voice
• 37:09
  Speaker 2: thing I sent?
• 37:10
  Speaker 1: I did not, so.
• 37:11
  Speaker 2: June Faraday, who was the voice of Rocket Jay Squirrel
• 37:15
  Speaker 2: on Rocky and Bullwinkle, and Cindy Lee who on The
• 37:19
  Speaker 2: Grinch Christmas Special. She was the first voice of Chatty Kathy,
• 37:23
  Speaker 2: all right, and then they re released Chatty Kathy in
• 37:26
  Speaker 2: nineteen seventy and the voice was Maureen McCormick, who played
• 37:30
  Speaker 2: Marsha on The Brady bunch Ow. So Marsha Marsha Trivia Masters.
• 37:35
  Speaker 2: If you're looking for a new question, Yeah, Merry Christmas.
• 37:39
  Speaker 1: Yeah that no one will know unless they listen to
• 37:41
  Speaker 1: stuff you should know.
• 37:42
  Speaker 2: Yes, that's right.
• 37:44
  Speaker 1: Yeah, we should talk about Polly Pocket for a minute,
• 37:46
  Speaker 1: because that was a miniature doll. It was a British
• 37:50
  Speaker 1: and winter named Chris Wiggs who built a mini dollhouse
• 37:53
  Speaker 1: for his daughter out of a makeup compact in the
• 37:57
  Speaker 1: early eighties, and Mattel was like, this thing's great, and
• 38:00
  Speaker 1: they licensed Polly Pocket as a doll in the early
• 38:03
  Speaker 1: nineties and all of a sudden, many toys were a
• 38:05
  Speaker 1: big craze. And we mentioned this because you may see
• 38:08
  Speaker 1: a movie coming to a theater screen near you because
• 38:12
  Speaker 1: Barbie was such a big hit. Obviously, Bye Witherspoon and
• 38:16
  Speaker 1: her production company has optioned this away. I don't know
• 38:20
  Speaker 1: about Away from Lena Dunham, but Lena Dunnan was originally
• 38:22
  Speaker 1: attached a few years ago and is no longer attached,
• 38:25
  Speaker 1: And so they're trying to make Polly Pocket into a
• 38:27
  Speaker 1: movie starring Lily Collins, Phil Collins's daughter.
• 38:31
  Speaker 2: Yeah, what about American girl dolls? Did you know about
• 38:36
  Speaker 2: the origin of them? They came from an elementary school
• 38:38
  Speaker 2: teacher in Wisconsin named Pleasant Rowland, which is a great name.
• 38:42
  Speaker 1: That's a Jerry's nickname. Yea, yeah, Jerry pleasant Roland.
• 38:47
  Speaker 2: Yeah. But pleasant Roland wanted to teach kids about history,
• 38:51
  Speaker 2: I guess, specifically girls. And she started releasing them in
• 38:55
  Speaker 2: nineteen eighty six, these American girl dolls. And at first
• 38:58
  Speaker 2: they were just mail order and they were of two
• 39:00
  Speaker 2: sixty five bucks and nineteen eighty six dollars. It's just
• 39:03
  Speaker 2: like one hundred thousand dollars today, I'm guessing. But they
• 39:07
  Speaker 2: were a big seller right off the bat, and eventually
• 39:10
  Speaker 2: you could find them in stores.
• 39:11
  Speaker 1: Too, yeah, like their own stores. Uh yeah, you know,
• 39:15
  Speaker 1: their flagship stores. And I just encourage anyone that has dollophobia,
• 39:20
  Speaker 1: which we'll get to in a minute, to dare walk
• 39:23
  Speaker 1: by or through an American girl doll store.
• 39:25
  Speaker 2: That is quite a dare.
• 39:27
  Speaker 1: Yeah, that's that's not a dare actually, because that's not
• 39:29
  Speaker 1: funny if you have a real feel like that.
• 39:31
  Speaker 2: Rih, I was looking that up. We'll talk about it
• 39:33
  Speaker 2: in a second, but it is some real deal stuff.
• 39:35
  Speaker 2: It does not sound pleasant.
• 39:37
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and you know, American girl dolls look sort of
• 39:40
  Speaker 1: real but that ain't nothing like what's coming out of
• 39:43
  Speaker 1: FAO Shorts and companies like Reborn and companies like Ashton Drake,
• 39:48
  Speaker 1: because they are making these realistic baby dolls. We finally,
• 39:53
  Speaker 1: on this last trip to New York on fall break,
• 39:56
  Speaker 1: I'd always wanted to go to Fao Shorts in New
• 39:58
  Speaker 1: York City, and we'd did. We took a trip through
• 40:01
  Speaker 1: Fao Schwartz and I recommended, I mean, it's very, very busy,
• 40:05
  Speaker 1: so don't go in there if you have any sort
• 40:07
  Speaker 1: of fear of crowds, because that is one of the
• 40:11
  Speaker 1: most packed places I've ever been in. But eventually we
• 40:15
  Speaker 1: wandered over to where they had their baby, like real
• 40:17
  Speaker 1: baby doll display, and I held one of these things, man,
• 40:21
  Speaker 1: and it is very surreal and weird because it seems
• 40:25
  Speaker 1: like a real baby.
• 40:26
  Speaker 2: Yeah, like down to like the little veins in their temples,
• 40:29
  Speaker 2: the little capillaries, and the smell it did the one
• 40:34
  Speaker 2: you hold smell of like talcum or anything. Yeah.
• 40:36
  Speaker 1: They smell and look like babies, like full stop.
• 40:39
  Speaker 2: Yeah. And they even have weight to them too, like heft.
• 40:42
  Speaker 2: So they're so realistic that these things are. This is
• 40:45
  Speaker 2: what is often used as like a movie prop for
• 40:47
  Speaker 2: like a long shot or something like that, not.
• 40:49
  Speaker 1: A close up, for close up if you're Bradley Cooper.
• 40:51
  Speaker 1: And a Clint Eatwood movie.
• 40:53
  Speaker 2: Oh really, which one?
• 40:55
  Speaker 1: The American sniper is very famous scene where he's clearly
• 40:58
  Speaker 1: holding a fake baby.
• 41:00
  Speaker 2: I didn't know that it.
• 41:02
  Speaker 1: Check it out on YouTube. It's hysterical, okay.
• 41:04
  Speaker 2: But people collect these things. I mean, they are essentially
• 41:08
  Speaker 2: like works of art. They're usually made individually, they're not
• 41:12
  Speaker 2: mass produced. Some of them I've seen referred to as
• 41:16
  Speaker 2: museum quality pieces, so they can run hundreds of dollars,
• 41:20
  Speaker 2: probably more than that for some of them. But there's
• 41:22
  Speaker 2: other things that people do with them too. There's role
• 41:24
  Speaker 2: playing just for fun, treating them as if they're alive,
• 41:29
  Speaker 2: because again, they look a lot like a live baby
• 41:31
  Speaker 2: or infant. Some people use them to fill an emotional void,
• 41:37
  Speaker 2: and then apparently they're also useful for Alzheimer's patients patients
• 41:41
  Speaker 2: and dementia patients. And when I first saw this, I
• 41:44
  Speaker 2: was like, that sounds pretty mean. Actually they don't tell
• 41:49
  Speaker 2: the patient that this is a real baby. They're like, here,
• 41:53
  Speaker 2: hold this doll. But the doll is so lifelike that
• 41:56
  Speaker 2: it can trigger memories. And pleasant emotions in Alzheimer's patients
• 42:01
  Speaker 2: who now remember raising their own kids. We're taking care
• 42:04
  Speaker 2: of their own kids. And then also just the feel
• 42:07
  Speaker 2: of holding a baby can have all sorts of positive
• 42:10
  Speaker 2: benefits for people with Alzheimer's and dementia too.
• 42:13
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I look that up. I mean, it's sort of
• 42:14
  Speaker 1: pluses and minuses. It can definitely help reduce dementia, cause
• 42:18
  Speaker 1: agitation and stuff like that, all in a non pharma
• 42:22
  Speaker 1: pharmacological way, which can be good. But there are critics
• 42:26
  Speaker 1: that say, like, you gotta be real careful how you
• 42:28
  Speaker 1: do this, because it can also reduce dignity and give
• 42:31
  Speaker 1: the impression and like a reinforced like viewing people with
• 42:35
  Speaker 1: dementia like their children. So you just gotta do it
• 42:39
  Speaker 1: the right way, is what I've read.
• 42:41
  Speaker 2: Yeah, there's I'm sure there's myriad wrong ways to do
• 42:45
  Speaker 2: it to you.
• 42:46
  Speaker 1: Sure.
• 42:47
  Speaker 2: So that was a great, great call out, Chuck. Yeah,
• 42:51
  Speaker 2: do you remember my buddy.
• 42:54
  Speaker 1: My buddy and me. Mm hmm bye buddy, keep my buddy,
• 42:59
  Speaker 1: my buddy, my buddy and me something like that.
• 43:02
  Speaker 2: That was close close enough.
• 43:04
  Speaker 1: That was the uh what do you call that? But
• 43:06
  Speaker 1: you got a song?
• 43:08
  Speaker 2: An earworm? Earworm no, no, no, no.
• 43:11
  Speaker 1: The jingle, Yeah, that was the jingle Everyone's screaming jingle.
• 43:15
  Speaker 1: It was very infectious. I still remember it for the
• 43:17
  Speaker 1: most part all these years later. That was the inspiration
• 43:20
  Speaker 1: for Chucky from Child's Play, but that was adult that
• 43:23
  Speaker 1: came out in nineteen eighty five. That was kind of
• 43:26
  Speaker 1: during the Cabbage Patch kid craze. They were like, hey,
• 43:29
  Speaker 1: what about a doll this made specifically for boys and
• 43:32
  Speaker 1: listen to this. Hasbro Senior vice president of marketing, Steven
• 43:35
  Speaker 1: Schwartz in nineteen eighty five told the Boston Globe this,
• 43:39
  Speaker 1: my buddy is positioned as macho like. It's soft macho
• 43:43
  Speaker 1: but still macho. Like we show them climbing trees, riding
• 43:45
  Speaker 1: their bikes. We didn't position it like a girl doll,
• 43:48
  Speaker 1: like soft and sweet. It's macho, but soft macho. Right.
• 43:53
  Speaker 2: He was wearing all these medallions with his chest there
• 43:55
  Speaker 2: poking through.
• 43:56
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 43:56
  Speaker 2: So that was thanks to our friends at Mental Flaws
• 43:59
  Speaker 2: who turned up that quote, which is priceless. Yeah.
• 44:02
  Speaker 1: I should have read it in a Boston accent, but well.
• 44:05
  Speaker 2: No, I think you got it.
• 44:06
  Speaker 1: It was just an opportunity that was Philly, right. Well,
• 44:10
  Speaker 1: that was for the Boston Globe. But I don't know. Ah,
• 44:13
  Speaker 1: you mean my accent. No, no, no, no, that Philly
• 44:16
  Speaker 1: accent's much different.
• 44:17
  Speaker 2: Okay, yeah, you didn't say yeans.
• 44:20
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and he would go out after and have a hagy.
• 44:23
  Speaker 2: So, like you said, he was the role for the
• 44:26
  Speaker 2: model for Chucky from Child's play.
• 44:28
  Speaker 1: That's what they say that They did never confirm that.
• 44:31
  Speaker 2: It's pretty It's pretty close like Talkie Tina Chucky. Yeah,
• 44:34
  Speaker 2: these things are close enough to just draw some assumptions here.
• 44:38
  Speaker 1: Yeah, agreed.
• 44:39
  Speaker 2: So we talked about fear of dolls, and I'm glad
• 44:42
  Speaker 2: you already kind of touched on the fact that this
• 44:44
  Speaker 2: is quite serious. This is a genuine phobia. I know,
• 44:47
  Speaker 2: to people who don't have it, it can sound like, well,
• 44:49
  Speaker 2: a fear of dolls. It almost sounds like something you
• 44:51
  Speaker 2: could make a movie out of. If you have a
• 44:53
  Speaker 2: fear of dolls, pettiophobia, like, you can get a full
• 44:59
  Speaker 2: blown panic attack. You may avoid places where you think
• 45:02
  Speaker 2: there may be dolls. It's not just dolls, it can
• 45:05
  Speaker 2: be mannequins too. There's all sorts of reasons that you
• 45:08
  Speaker 2: can have pettiophobia, but one of the causes behind it
• 45:14
  Speaker 2: are possible causes behind it is having like a traumatic
• 45:18
  Speaker 2: experience with a doll, or say like with a ventriloquist
• 45:21
  Speaker 2: dummy or something like that.
• 45:22
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 45:22
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it just didn't land correctly, and now you're traumatized
• 45:26
  Speaker 2: for the rest of your life without serious counseling because
• 45:30
  Speaker 2: you have this fear of dolls.
• 45:33
  Speaker 1: Yeah for sure. You know you used to publish when
• 45:36
  Speaker 1: we were doing like image lists on the old house
• 45:39
  Speaker 1: stuffworks dot com days, your list of scary looking toys.
• 45:43
  Speaker 1: That thing is just gone, isn't it not on the
• 45:46
  Speaker 1: webiny No, oh, that's probably good. But a lot of
• 45:49
  Speaker 1: these things are creepy looking, and a lot of them
• 45:51
  Speaker 1: are dolls, and you know they didn't mean to make
• 45:56
  Speaker 1: them creepy looking. I think this just, you know, some
• 45:59
  Speaker 1: decision is made, like like little Miss No Name in
• 46:02
  Speaker 1: nineteen sixty five, Margaret Keane's big eyes was a big deal,
• 46:06
  Speaker 1: so were like, why don't we make a doll with
• 46:08
  Speaker 1: those big, giant eyes, and they did and it's terrifying.
• 46:12
  Speaker 2: She is terrifying again unintentionally. I think also part of it,
• 46:15
  Speaker 2: she has like like shadow under her eyes. She's supposed
• 46:18
  Speaker 2: to be kind of gaunt because she's a panhandling child
• 46:23
  Speaker 2: who wears a burlap sack and has a tear running
• 46:25
  Speaker 2: down her cheek and unintentionally miss name.
• 46:30
  Speaker 1: Yes, it's awful, it.
• 46:31
  Speaker 2: Is awful, but this was like a serious like release
• 46:34
  Speaker 2: of a doll in nineteen sixty five. So yeah, there's
• 46:39
  Speaker 2: there's and there's plenty you can come up with. I
• 46:41
  Speaker 2: would I would suggest to go looking up terrifying dolls,
• 46:44
  Speaker 2: knockoff dolls or knockoff toois is always a little fun
• 46:48
  Speaker 2: rabbit hole to go down, But they're not inherently creepy,
• 46:53
  Speaker 2: is the thing. And the reason we know that is
• 46:55
  Speaker 2: because there's kids out there who will play with what
• 46:58
  Speaker 2: older people will consider a creepy all, but the kid
• 47:02
  Speaker 2: doesn't think of it that way. So if you ever
• 47:03
  Speaker 2: see a kid legitimately playing with a creepy doll, do
• 47:06
  Speaker 2: not go up to that kid and be like, that
• 47:08
  Speaker 2: doll's really creepy, because that's how humans start to think
• 47:11
  Speaker 2: of things as creepy. And if they don't think of
• 47:13
  Speaker 2: their doll as creepy, it is not your place to
• 47:16
  Speaker 2: tell that kid that doll is creepy.
• 47:18
  Speaker 1: Yeah, for sure.
• 47:19
  Speaker 2: There's an Instagram account of a mom who has been
• 47:24
  Speaker 2: documenting her daughter Briar with her doll Creepy Chloe, and
• 47:28
  Speaker 2: Creepy Chloe definitely lives up to her name, but Briar
• 47:31
  Speaker 2: plays with her like she is any other doll. It's
• 47:34
  Speaker 2: very cute.
• 47:35
  Speaker 1: Yeah, just resist the urge.
• 47:37
  Speaker 2: Parents, Yes, if you want to know, if you want
• 47:42
  Speaker 2: to know, yeah, I can't you see Briar like growing
• 47:45
  Speaker 2: up and sitting in her dorm smoking pot one day
• 47:48
  Speaker 2: and be like, no, I understand why my mom always
• 47:50
  Speaker 2: threw her hand over her mouth and walked out of
• 47:52
  Speaker 2: the room when I was playing with Creepy Chloe.
• 47:55
  Speaker 1: Or why didn't she ever tell me? It might be
• 47:57
  Speaker 1: the other right way of thinking about it.
• 47:59
  Speaker 2: Yeah, so just real quick, The thing that usually explains
• 48:03
  Speaker 2: why we're creeped out by dolls is the on Canny Valley.
• 48:06
  Speaker 2: We won't get into that because it's pretty deep, but
• 48:08
  Speaker 2: we did do an episode on the Uncanny Valley. You
• 48:10
  Speaker 2: can go find it's a good one. Yeah, you can
• 48:13
  Speaker 2: find it on stuff youshould know dot com. By the way,
• 48:16
  Speaker 2: that's right, You got anything else on dolls or Christmas or.
• 48:19
  Speaker 1: Anything like that, buddy, Nothing.
• 48:21
  Speaker 2: Well, I'm glad we did this one.
• 48:23
  Speaker 1: I too.
• 48:24
  Speaker 2: Thank you for coming in from home this morning. On
• 48:27
  Speaker 2: Christmas morning to do this. That's right.
• 48:30
  Speaker 1: All my gifts are still waiting. I told them, just
• 48:32
  Speaker 1: not touching them, okay, and the one that's ticking, and
• 48:34
  Speaker 1: I'll be right back.
• 48:35
  Speaker 2: Well, hopefully your orange rolls aren't cold or anything like that.
• 48:38
  Speaker 2: So let's go home. Let's go to our homes, not
• 48:41
  Speaker 2: our shared home. Yeah that's something else. Yeah, that's for
• 48:45
  Speaker 2: New Year's and we'll wish everybody a merry Christmas.
• 48:49
  Speaker 1: Huh. Yeah. I hope everyone has a great holiday, and
• 48:52
  Speaker 1: I hope you're with ones you love, and if you're
• 48:55
  Speaker 1: spending Christmas in a lesson ideal way, we are always
• 48:59
  Speaker 1: thinking about you.
• 48:59
  Speaker 2: For very nice Chuck, And I don't think we'll do listener.
• 49:03
  Speaker 1: Mail huh nah, nuts to that, as you say.
• 49:06
  Speaker 2: Yeah, Well, if you want to say Merry Christmas or
• 49:08
  Speaker 2: Happy New Year, or happy Holidays or anything hi, whatever,
• 49:12
  Speaker 2: you can send it via email to stuff Podcasts at
• 49:15
  Speaker 2: iHeartRadio dot com.
• 49:42
  Speaker 1: Stuff you Should Know is a production of iHeartRadio. For
• 49:45
  Speaker 1: more podcasts my heart Radio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,
• 49:49
  Speaker 1: or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.