Latest / The Yield Doctor with James Deaker / JoAnna Full Interview with James Deaker

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JoAnna Full Interview with James Deaker · The Yield Doctor with James Deaker

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my guest today is Joanna foil and we are
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going to be talking about the challenges
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that creators and small Publishers face
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in the tactics that they can best use to
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position themselves Joanna and I first
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met working at wrapped almost 20 years
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ago when it was in the process of
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getting acquired by Microsoft and since
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then she has gone on to build an
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incredibly successful career in digital
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media she's worked in executive roles at
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companies like like Free Will adap TV
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AOL and the trade disk relevant to this
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conversation at the trade disk she ran
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the global supply side company including
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inventory Partnerships and operations
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she serves on the board of directors at
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marad the leading virtual product
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placement company and most recently she
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was the CEO and co-founder of wildfire
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an entertainment incubator that brings
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Silicon Valley only ship and control to
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artists Joanne it is so good to see you
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again thank you for joining the yield
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doctor to talk about the challenges in
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the creators and Publishers face well
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it's so good to see you first of all
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also thank you for dating both of us
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like 20 years that's just a rude number
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to start off with but it's okay we'll go
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with it and um yeah I don't know what it
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says that we're 20 years later still
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trying to help Publishers figure these
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things out but I guess and the world
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around us has changed so much in 20
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years impossible to think people could
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could have it all figured out so that's
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why we're here right as we go through
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talking about different models in this
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conversation and using different terms
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um you know they terms like Banner
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advertising nater advertising
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subscriptions licensing affiliate models
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lots of different ways that little
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companies Scrappy companies can make
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money can we just start at the highest
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level and and have you give an overview
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of the main ways that you think about
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how Publishers big and small make money
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yeah absolutely and I guess it we should
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maybe do full disclosure that you both
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and I both you and I have started
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dabbling into the individual Creator
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World ourselves so yes we've spent a lot
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of our careers um dealing with with big
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and midsized Publishers but we're also
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uh little creators on our own on our own
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right as well so learning those lessons
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as well as we go along um yeah at a at a
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really high level um I think the first
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expectation to set with people with you
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know small com creators small Publishers
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you have to expect to invest in the
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content itself right before you can even
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think about how you're going to make
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money from the content um good content
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is an investment and it really doesn't
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matter if you're big or small or midsize
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or video or writing or podcasting maybe
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um you know content is sometimes
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expensive to create it's time intensive
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regardless um and you want it to be
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valuable right and so small Publishers
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arguably have it easier today in a lot
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of ways because these like the devices
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we all have the technology and the
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platforms we all have at our disposal
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are making it easier to edit format
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distribute that content um in more
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robust ways than certainly we had access
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to however long ago um and it's only
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getting more robust with the AI tools
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that are coming out and becoming
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available um but you should still expect
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to spend a invest a pretty good amount
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of time and work into content if it's
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going to be differentiated still stay
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human um and impact people in a way
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that's going to make them even think
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about paying for that content right so
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now back to your question how do you
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make money from content so assuming your
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content that you've created is good
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enough to monetize um you know I think
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the I think about it at the highest
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level in two ways you're either
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monetizing the content or you're
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monetizing the audience that you've
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driven to that content right so
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monetizing the content I think about
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things like subscriptions right you're
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selling access to your content um I
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would say for smaller and and kind of
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individual Publishers that typically
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starts with a free model so that you're
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building that audience and then you have
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to figure out a strategy to flip that
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over to a paid model and we can talk a
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little more about that later but
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subscriptions are definitely a really
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valuable mechanism and a lot of
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platforms out there today whether your
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your content is video based or text
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based or podcast audio based um a lot of
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the platforms have some of those
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subscription Model Management built in
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so it's getting easier um another way
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you can monetize the content itself is
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licensing it right so you're letting
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another distributor pay you to make your
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content available on their platform or
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website I think this is most commonly
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available to larger you know mid to
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larger Publishers you know the classic
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example is like a Disney licensing its
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content like licensing the series This
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Is Us and lost and Archer to Netflix
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right Disney's decided this isn't so
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core to our Content Library that we
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can't get paid and make money off of it
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more money than we would have if we kept
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it on our own platform um by licensing
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it to a Netflix say but the idea is that
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you are you know if you're somebody
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that's producing um you know original
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data as an example right you have
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Finance data That's Unique or you have
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audience data that's unique and you're
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producing content around that to license
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that to another distributor could make
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sense for you um and the last is selling
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it outright right you you might have you
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know built enough value and audience in
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your content and maybe you maybe you're
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not so smitten with it yourself that you
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need to hold on to it but ideally for
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some folks what they're building to is
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an opportunity to just sell that sell
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that as an asset that library of content
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you've produced you know one of the most
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famous examples was I don't know if you
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listen to Smart list do you listen to
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that podcast um so it's Will Arnett Sean
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Hayes and Jason baitman just started
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getting together on a podcast over
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during covid and the three of them are
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obviously hysterical and they're really
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good friends in real life and uh anyway
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they they built up the value of this
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podcast and they sold it for I think it
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was 300 million to Amazon just these you
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know funny inherently famous so they had
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a little more going for them than you
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and I do James we got to work on the the
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celebrity facet of it um but they sold
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sold that entire um that entire library
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to Amazon right so selling the content
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is another option so that's monetizing
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the content itself and then I also think
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people need to think about monetizing
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the audience right and the way people
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think of that most commonly is
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advertising right like people want to
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buy ads because ultimately they want to
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reach the audience that's around your
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content right they want to influence
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them to take an action um so selling ads
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so that Brands can reach your audience
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um but the tools that are around these
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platforms to allow um creators and small
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Publishers to insert ads into your
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content have gotten much more robust
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over the years as well and so whether
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you know you're on YouTube or Instagram
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or other um you know other platforms
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there's a lot there's a lot more tools
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available to you to insert ads into your
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content and then the last thing I'll say
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about um monetizing audience is um I
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also would encourage people and you and
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I James were just talking about this um
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to think about the value that you're
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building in terms of any data that
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you're collecting about your audience
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right that's what we call first-party
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data um you need to be making sure
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you're doing it in a privacy compliant
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way right there's a lot of laws around
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privacy and how you're collecting data
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about people um but assuming people are
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opting in and paying attention you're
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paying attention to those privacy rules
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being organized and and thoughtful about
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how you're collecting first-party data
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around your um content will be important
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down the road as that audience
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builds that's I don't know if that's
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simple
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but it's simple enough for the first
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conversation because now I've got tons
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of
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follow-ups that one followup is if
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you're a relatively small Creator just
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starting out and you mentioned
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advertising you're right you can go to
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each of the individual platforms
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Instagram YouTube Etc and they all have
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their own experience how they're going
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to run ads against you how much should a
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uh Creator be thinking about the ad
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experience as they're building their
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content or is that should that be an
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afterthought of like I'm going to build
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the best content I can and worry about
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the advertising down the
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road my my instinct is the latter right
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I really think you have to start with
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the content right you have to build
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something that's compelling to people
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right I mean you if you even think about
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your own experience as somebody who OBS
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who watches content or listens to
8:59
content or what have you um you know if
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you don't have an affinity for that
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content at the beginning an ad
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experience can really put you off right
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because you haven't bought in yet you
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the the classic we've used back to our
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20 years ago at wrapped right we used to
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we' used the expression of the value
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exchange that you have as somebody who
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is offering content to a consumer and
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what they're offering you back right and
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so for you to offer a Content free to a
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consumer that they think is really
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valuable and really invested in a
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consumer is going to understand that
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there might be ads or data you're asking
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for or some other thing that that you're
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asking them to do in exchange for free
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access to that content right but you
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have to build that Affinity first they
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have to be they have to be into you
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first you have to start dating at least
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before you start asking them for things
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one um Avenue that you didn't explicitly
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mention we can call it product placement
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product sponsorship but actually Direct
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IR L promoting them the content yourself
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as a Creator I'm going to assume broadly
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your guidance stays the same which is
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you need to be genuine you need to build
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the content first and I assume you need
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to be upfront about the fact that is a
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paid placement a lot of podcasters have
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got themselves into trouble where they
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have promoted products that they haven't
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disclosed is is that product placement
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World a little bit different than the
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pure advertising play it is a little bit
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different and full disclosure you
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mentioned it in my intro but I do sit on
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the board of myriad which is a a VPP the
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leading VPP company so I do know I do
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know a bit about this space um it is a
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little bit different in so far as I
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think it's it's a it's a different
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situation when you as the as the person
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you know that's representing the content
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or in the content is is recommending a
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thing or advocating for a thing
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explicitly and and you're not stating
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that you're getting paid by them to do
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it right that's where I think the
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disingenuousness disingenuousness comes
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in um I think in the world of virtual
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product placement the scenario that
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you're talking about more commonly there
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is there's a set of content that you're
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watching right we're talking about video
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content right there's a set of content
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that you're watching and um and the in
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the background you can dynamically
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insert these companies Myriad as an
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example can dynamically insert a given
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product into a scene or on a on a
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billboard behind a character put a sign
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that's advertising a given product so
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it's it's passive the way you know a TV
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commercial is passive um you're not
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somebody is not explicitly recommending
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it and the beauty of that format is that
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you can change it based on the audience
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that's watching the content right so
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you're watching an episode of Modern
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Family and you may see a I'm gonna be
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gender specific or whatever on this but
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uh you know you may see a soccer ball
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sitting on the counter and I may see a
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bottle of of Pantene on the counter but
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those are um those are explicitly
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decided on based on the brands that are
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available to the um content owner at
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that moment and who's watching the
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content itself so it is a different
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consideration um and I there are
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companies like Myriad that are helping
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large Publishers figure out how to best
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use that format there's also companies
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that are um you know helping individual
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creators like rembrand is a company
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that's helping um individual creators do
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utilize that format um just on kind of
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one-off videos like this one so you may
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check it
12:35
out um you mentioned that smaller
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Publishers and smaller creators actually
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have some advantages and obviously they
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have an advantage in that they can be
12:44
more specific in the types of content
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they create the type of audience that
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they want to Target but they also face
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unique challenges that the bigger
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platforms don't have whether it's cookie
12:57
dication privacy ch challenges how do
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you think about the challenges that
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smaller Publishers and creators have and
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if you if you're prepared to go that how
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should they navigate those challenges
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sure uh I mean I think we've talked
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about it a little bit right aggregating
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enough audience to be meaningful in a
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monetization way I think is thing one
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right and that's mean you and I were
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just talking about this for our own
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little um our little adventures in in
13:25
content creation right but how do you
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build enough audience for for
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advertisers to care or for a
13:31
subscription to make sense or for um it
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to make enough revenue for you for the
13:37
content to um even break even before you
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even think about you know it being a
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revenue source for you so that audience
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aggregation and how do you build that I
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think is thing is a challenge for sure
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um that can lead to another challenge
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that I think you and I over the years
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have seen a number of Publishers fall
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into which is that um you can see some
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of that control or that um that uh sort
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of like decisioning around how to build
14:06
um an advertising business to third
14:08
parties right so you you give some of
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your content or some of your ad
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opportunities to an ad Network or to
14:15
some other third party that says they'll
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monetize that content for you um and in
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doing so that can seem like a really
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good deal but as you know typically
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you're you're giving away Revenue you're
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typically giving away um visibility and
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direct connection to the brands that are
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potentially in the mix um and you're
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also often losing transparency and
14:37
access to that first party data we
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talked about you trying to build and so
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I think some of those some of those
14:43
thirdparty opportunities to monetize
14:45
content can look attractive that can be
14:47
a bit tricky um the third is we talked
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about is you making contents expensive
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right it's a tough business and I think
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if you are somebody if you're a
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publisher whose only business is content
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right and that doesn't necessarily even
15:02
have to be a small publisher right I've
15:04
heard companies like like Disney or
15:06
Paramount talk about this in the context
15:08
of competing with a Google right where
15:10
Google or Amazon have all these other
15:12
business models to fall back on and
15:15
subsidize the content they're creating
15:17
versus a Disney or Paramount where
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content is their primary business right
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and so um it's tough for them and it's
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it's tough for smaller companies too and
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then on top of that and then I'll stop
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talking about challenges because we want
15:30
people to keep making content um but
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keeping audience is also really hard
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right so you you go through all the all
15:37
the tough work to build this audience um
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for your content and then the media
15:43
world is so splintered people are so
15:45
fickle in their in their content
15:47
appetites that keeping that audience is
15:50
really difficult right you see
15:51
individual creators or even if they have
15:53
this amazing viral moment 15 minutes
15:56
later people are on to the next and if
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you don't capture that Viral moment okay
16:00
sure you have one video or one podcast
16:03
or one thing that has a million views so
16:06
what you know that's in that in the
16:09
pennies and sense of of monetizing for
16:11
individual creators that doesn't add up
16:14
to much and then you're left trying to
16:15
to chase all those people back to your
16:17
sit or to back to your platform so it's
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um it's kind of rif with challenges to
16:22
be
16:23
honest I want to Circle back to
16:26
something you said almost in passing and
16:28
I hadn't necessarily intended to go
16:30
there but it's a major Challenge and I
16:32
don't one I actually haven't talked to
16:34
any other guest about which is the free
16:36
to paid model because getting free
16:39
content out there is something that a
16:42
lot of people find a path to do and then
16:45
because they've established an
16:47
expectation In Their audience or in
16:49
their consumers that the content is free
16:52
they then struggle with how to get some
16:55
proportion to move to paid content and
16:58
there are obviously
16:59
different Avenues one is just to make
17:01
everybody move behind some kind of pay
17:03
wall one is to offer um value added
17:06
services but rather than me provide the
17:08
solutions I'd love to hear your thoughts
17:11
on how to manage that migration from
17:14
free to paid yeah it's um it's a tricky
17:18
one for sure and we did I think we
17:20
hinted on some of the answer um at the
17:23
beginning right which is it goes back to
17:26
that Val that value exchange like um but
17:29
you know how much do people care about
17:32
being able to access your content right
17:35
do they have a relationship with your
17:36
content do they have a relationship with
17:37
you um do they have a relationship with
17:39
the brand you've created around it um I
17:42
think you have to be willing to give
17:45
them something that's worth the trade
17:47
right so you're asking me and you know
17:50
your podcasts are still free James um my
17:54
my little substack I've started is still
17:56
free um but I think you and I wouldn't
17:59
be in the businesses we've been in if we
18:00
weren't thinking about what that
18:02
transition looks like right so whether
18:05
it's incremental content that they're
18:07
going to get access to because they're
18:09
willing to pay for it right I'm thinking
18:11
about just primarily like let's say
18:12
you're you're going from a free model to
18:15
convincing somebody to pay what I don't
18:18
know $15 a month $15 a year I don't know
18:23
any amount of money really once you're
18:24
asking people to put in the credit card
18:26
that's a barrier right so maybe there
18:28
getting incremental content you feel
18:30
like there's a different facet of the
18:32
content you're providing now that you
18:34
could be offering people that people
18:35
would be really jazzed about ideally
18:37
that's not just based on your gut that's
18:39
based on some kind of data you have
18:41
around which podcast episodes are most
18:44
popular or which you know which substack
18:47
articles are most read or which videos
18:49
are most watched or the comments people
18:52
are leaving which kinds of things do
18:53
they wish they'd see more of right you
18:55
really need to listen to your audience
18:57
to hopefully inform
18:59
what thing they would want to see more
19:01
of that they might be willing to pay for
19:03
right so maybe it's incremental content
19:05
maybe it's incremental access maybe
19:08
you've never shown your well you you
19:09
show your face I've never shown my face
19:12
on my substack right maybe it's um
19:14
incremental access to me my life my me
19:17
as a human being or um you know a
19:20
different set of content that I haven't
19:21
offered before um you know maybe it's
19:23
first access right maybe it's the for
19:26
the first time ever um I'm releasing
19:29
this thing and it's only my paid
19:31
subscribers that get access to that
19:33
thing for the first 24 hours and then
19:36
everybody else gets access to it um you
19:39
know maybe it's new formats you know
19:41
I've only written on substack but I'm
19:42
going to start doing a podcast it won't
19:44
compete with yours don't worry um but
19:46
I'm gonna start doing a podcast um and
19:49
that's a new format and so I'll keep
19:51
giving the written substack for free but
19:54
the podcast we're going to I'm going to
19:55
ask people to pay for hypothetically um
19:58
maybe there's live interaction that you
20:00
offer people maybe there's sneak peeks
20:03
you get to read the first paragraph
20:05
before anybody else does or see the
20:07
trailer before anybody else does maybe
20:09
there's a VIP moment where they get you
20:12
know somebody's willing to reach out to
20:14
them and ask them what kind of content
20:16
they'd like to see and they feel a
20:18
little bit more you know Velvet Rope
20:21
White Glove treatment so I think there's
20:23
a lot of ways to do it but I think you
20:25
need it all of those require time
20:27
thought and intent
20:29
right it's not just I don't think it's
20:31
something you just want to fling out
20:32
there and be like cool I know you've
20:34
enjoyed this for free for six months but
20:36
now it's going to cost you $25 a month
20:38
like I think you really need to think
20:40
about what you're giving them in
20:41
exchange no I think that's right and I
20:44
I'll give a little bit of commentary and
20:46
and use the Disney versus Google example
20:49
that you just gave but but at a smaller
20:51
level I think even small Crea actually
20:54
you you said previously in this
20:56
discussion create good content worry
20:58
about the advertising later I think I
21:01
would push on that or at least give a
21:03
slightly different take that e whatever
21:06
St scale you're at you need to be
21:08
thinking about how does it turn into the
21:11
dream of what you want it to be so even
21:13
if you're small and creating what might
21:16
advertising look like what might a paid
21:19
experience look like of a paid
21:21
subscription I haven't spoken about this
21:23
I'll speak about it now I don't think I
21:26
have any intention of turning this into
21:28
either a subscription or advertising
21:30
business in terms of revenue for me
21:32
because the main value for me is frankly
21:35
hopefully showcasing my expertise so
21:37
that when people think about a yield
21:39
problem they're like I need James deaker
21:41
I need the yield doctor and so from that
21:44
perspective it takes me in a different
21:47
direction in terms of the type of
21:48
content I'm going to create if I was
21:51
trying to get to a paid model or even
21:53
subscription model I would probably act
21:55
differently I might withhold some of my
21:58
best content for later use in a
22:00
subscription model I might create
22:02
broader content so that I could
22:04
potentially get more users and more
22:06
advertisers rather than being so focused
22:08
so I do think there's something about
22:10
even when you're relatively early as a
22:12
Creator you need to be focused on where
22:15
do you think that this is going to go do
22:18
you largely agree with that do you have
22:19
a different take no I do agree with that
22:22
I I think I think both of our takes can
22:24
exist in the in the world right so I
22:26
think I I think it's not just about
22:28
aimlessly creating for the sake of
22:31
creating I mean but that's fine too if
22:32
that's your jam but um but you're right
22:35
I think with having some intent around
22:38
where things are going so that you're
22:39
building content in that way makes sense
22:42
to me I just think it would be a mistake
22:45
to
22:47
architect the way you think about
22:49
content around ads I think I think the
22:53
content has to be Thing One and the ads
22:54
have to be thing two but definitely not
22:57
an afterthought I think
22:59
100% agree with that um let let me go in
23:02
a slightly different direction because
23:04
you mentioned the challenges of being a
23:06
small cred you could get something take
23:07
off had a million views and then you
23:09
struggle thereafter and and I think the
23:11
the underlying problem is potentially
23:14
for small creators uh their revenue can
23:17
be very volatile their business model
23:20
could be very fragile we saw some of
23:22
that with you know Tik Tock going down
23:24
briefly now it's back as we record this
23:27
but if I think about the revenue swings
23:30
and the the position that many creators
23:32
find themselves being tied to a planet
23:35
an individual platform I should say how
23:38
should creators think about insulating
23:41
those themselves from those wild swings
23:45
yeah I mean divers you kind of hit on it
23:47
right I think
23:48
diversification is important the
23:51
challenges that diversification of
23:53
platforms and and revenue models all
23:56
take more time more energy more
23:58
expertise right so I think I think
24:01
really understanding this gets back to
24:04
your point a bit about advertising too
24:06
that you just made right which is that
24:09
understanding and having intent around
24:11
which platform is right for you and why
24:14
right or which two or which three but
24:17
not just saying assuming that because
24:19
you're doing video that means you belong
24:20
in one place or because I'm writing I
24:22
belong somewhere else but really think
24:24
about for me right so you you talked
24:27
about your podcast for me with my
24:29
substack the way I thought about it was
24:31
I had just watched Tik Tok go down and
24:34
seen all these stories because of my
24:36
previous company Wildfire I was in the
24:38
entertainment space and so I was exposed
24:40
to a lot of of the hardship stories that
24:43
creators felt around that platform going
24:45
down even for what most would consider a
24:48
short amount of time that's that's a
24:50
livelihood for a lot of those creators
24:53
and they really felt it and so on the
24:55
heels of that my thinking was I want to
24:57
be on a platform where I control my
25:00
audience I don't want to seed all of my
25:02
distribution and all my audience to a
25:04
platform like Tik Tok or others I want
25:06
to be able to to own that audience so
25:09
anyway really understanding what
25:10
platform you're choosing and why is
25:13
important um but diversification you
25:16
we've talked here even today about a
25:17
bunch of different Revenue models a
25:19
bunch of different ways you can think
25:21
about making money from the content from
25:22
the audience that's absorbing your
25:24
content um I think the more of those you
25:27
can deploy the better that you know the
25:30
same way you think about your own
25:31
Financial well-being or what have you
25:33
right de that's the way to drisk this
25:35
business is to have Revenue coming from
25:37
a few different places ideally so that
25:39
if one falls through um you're not
25:42
you're not in a tough spot but it's not
25:45
it's not easy to do and it's it's called
25:47
a hustle for a
25:50
reason um as we sort of come towards the
25:52
end of our time one of the things I've
25:54
been pushing my guests on is to share
25:56
stories with me about some of the
25:58
craziest things related to pricing or
26:01
yield or I just talked to someone about
26:03
adops as you think back through some of
26:05
the more unusual things you've seen in
26:07
our industry what's sort of his top of
26:09
Mind in terms of interesting or strange
26:12
experiences yeah well I'm not gonna beat
26:14
Naylor's chicken story so if uh for
26:17
those of you who haven't watched James's
26:19
episode with Peter Naylor that's that's
26:21
worth watching for that story alone I
26:23
don't think I can top that one um and I
26:25
would suggest that most uh stories in
26:27
adops are crazy
26:28
so I'm eager for that one um for me this
26:33
is simple but it really was one of those
26:35
moments where my jaw was just on the
26:37
floor we were talking to I Will Not name
26:39
the publisher even if you tortured me um
26:42
but it was a big e right somebody you'd
26:44
think that has it all together and
26:45
figured out and zillions of people and
26:48
um lots of Revenue and what have you and
26:50
we were talking to them about content
26:52
monetization and we were talking about
26:53
monetizing their library right so not
26:56
just and you know this is something you
26:58
and I've talked about in the past not
27:00
just the most current hot onair shows
27:03
presently but the full library of
27:05
content they have right and we were
27:07
talking about helping them figure out
27:09
how to monetize that and we were talking
27:11
about a couple of shows that um had gone
27:14
we're no longer like on air do we still
27:16
say on air we're no longer on air on on
27:19
TV airing now um but were um but we
27:23
recent enough where everybody knew them
27:25
and we said okay well these aren't these
27:27
are no longer being monetized through
27:29
traditional TV channels how are you
27:31
monetizing these and they're like well
27:33
we're not and we're like great so you're
27:36
so you should be so you're really
27:37
receptive to thinking about how we you
27:41
know either virtually put product into
27:43
them or advertise in the background of
27:44
the content or change up the ad load and
27:47
they were like well no and we were like
27:50
what do you mean what do you mean
27:52
no and they were just like well no we're
27:54
not we don't want to risk changing
27:56
anything yet we really are want to
27:58
understand what the opportunity would be
28:00
and I'm like okay but the money you're
28:02
making from them from it presently is is
28:04
zero and they're like
28:07
yes I was just like okay am I I'm like
28:11
looking around the room like am I crazy
28:13
like am I the only one hearing this so I
28:16
mean I I guess that's just a bit of a
28:18
lesson in you know some money is better
28:21
than no money and I think as we talk
28:23
about you know even in our conversation
28:25
we talked about the a range of different
28:27
ways that you can make money from
28:29
content whether you're an individual
28:31
Creator a small publisher um try things
28:35
right like don't be so so paralyzed by
28:37
fear of what how your audience is going
28:39
to react or fear of how um how the
28:42
content is going to shape or what might
28:44
change like try some things you know
28:46
test into it doesn't have to be full
28:48
bore but to have it just sitting on the
28:50
sideline making no money is definitely
28:51
not the answer uh that brings to mind a
28:55
a former colleague of yours and mine at
28:57
a company also should not be named he
29:00
had an idea for $50 million business and
29:03
he's like this is going to be an
29:04
absolute winner and we took it up the
29:07
leadership chain and they're like we
29:09
don't bother with $50 million businesses
29:12
in in this
29:13
company and K back to your point about
29:15
if you're small you have to hustle for
29:17
every last dime if you are a very large
29:20
corporation $50 million a year might not
29:23
be worth your time to so I mean let's
29:26
Endeavor to build to that problem James
29:28
right
29:29
great Jo it has been so much fun uh
29:33
where can people find you you mentioned
29:34
your substack is that the best way to
29:36
find you at the moment or how how should
29:39
people find you online yeah you can find
29:41
me on LinkedIn um that's just I think
29:43
it's j Joanna foil NYC on Instagram I'm
29:47
Joanna Jersey girl um and my substack is
29:50
at J foil yeah excellent thank you so
29:53
much for joining me today thanks so much
29:54
James great to see you
29:58
oh