Latest / Making The Impact - A Dance Competition Podcast / Throwback! S4 EP 128 - Battling Stage Fright as a Performer

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Throwback! S4 EP 128 - Battling Stage Fright as a Performer · Making The Impact - A Dance Competition Podcast

0:03
SPEAKER_06: Hey everyone, it's Courtney Ortiz, your host on Making the Impact, the Dance Competition Podcast.
0:09
SPEAKER_06: Today we're throwing it back to an episode that goes hand in hand with last week's release about performance quality.
0:14
SPEAKER_06: Season 4, episode 128 Battling Stage Freight at the Performance.
0:20
SPEAKER_06: We originally recorded this conversation in early 2023, but let's be honest, performance anxiety and stage freight are still huge topics in 2025.
0:29
SPEAKER_06: Whether you're a dancer stepping onto the competition stage, a professional performing eight shows a week, or even a teacher helping students calm their nerves before that big solo, this episode is packed with timeless advice.
0:41
SPEAKER_06: And here in 2025, mental health awareness in the dance industry has grown so much.
0:46
SPEAKER_06: So many more studios are openly talking about performance anxiety.
0:50
SPEAKER_06: Competitions are creating a calmer backstage environment, and dancers are learning new ways to overcome the stress of being a performing artist.
0:58
SPEAKER_06: So as you head into this new competition season, think about this episode as your mindset reset.
1:03
SPEAKER_06: And now let's jump into our throwback episode from season four battling stage fright as a performer.
1:09
SPEAKER_06: Hope you enjoy.
1:13
SPEAKER_06: Hello everyone, and welcome to this week's episode of Making the Impact.
1:17
SPEAKER_06: I'm your host, Courtney Ortiz, and I'm here with my co-host Leslie Mueller.
1:21
SPEAKER_00: What's up, Courtney?
1:23
SPEAKER_06: Not too much.
1:24
SPEAKER_06: Happy New Year.
1:24
SPEAKER_06: How's your year going so far?
1:26
SPEAKER_00: You know, it's 12 days in, and I like 2023, so feeling good?
1:30
SPEAKER_00: Hey.
1:31
SPEAKER_06: Awesome.
1:32
SPEAKER_06: I like uh 2023 and 12 days into it because we're getting closer and closer to the competition season starting.
1:39
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
1:40
SPEAKER_00: Yes, I'm super excited about that too.
1:42
SPEAKER_00: It's it's it's inching closer and closer every day.
1:45
SPEAKER_00: So I hope everybody is rehearsing and, you know, just getting everything situated, rehearse away from the mirror, make sure you do your dress rehearsal with your costumes and your shoes.
1:56
SPEAKER_00: Make sure that we are just ready to go.
1:58
SPEAKER_00: Because if you haven't already started competition, you're about to start any minute now.
2:02
SPEAKER_06: And speaking of competition and performing, you might get a little bit nervous when you hit the stage the very first time this season.
2:10
SPEAKER_06: And today we are here to talk all about that little thing called stage fright that we might all experience at a point in time or maybe still experience every time you hit the stage.
2:23
SPEAKER_06: Whether you're at competition, you're at recital, performance, auditioning, you name it, we all experience it.
2:28
SPEAKER_06: And we're going to talk about this topic today in full detail, which I can't wait to do.
2:34
SPEAKER_00: Yes, we've got some amazing guests here today to give us their perspective on uh stage fright and the anxiety that comes with it.
2:41
SPEAKER_06: All right, dance world, it's time to jump into this week's episode all about stage fright.
2:46
SPEAKER_06: Oh my gosh, something we have not talked often about on the podcast.
2:51
SPEAKER_06: Uh, we definitely have talked about mental health for dance.
2:54
SPEAKER_06: Maybe we've talked about anxiety here and there, but the actual pressure of stage fright when you enter the stage, I'm sure that every dancer in existence has experienced this in one way or another.
3:05
SPEAKER_06: Maybe you finally figured out how to overcome it.
3:07
SPEAKER_06: Maybe you deal with it every single time you step foot on the stage.
3:11
SPEAKER_06: I know I personally have had some stage fright experiences growing up, and still to this day, I'm not going to lie.
3:17
SPEAKER_06: Uh, so I can't wait to get into the discussion and introduce our fabulous guests who are joining us today.
3:24
SPEAKER_06: They are both brand new guests to our podcast.
3:28
SPEAKER_06: I know.
3:29
SPEAKER_06: So exciting.
3:30
SPEAKER_06: I'm so happy that we were able to make this work for them both.
3:34
SPEAKER_06: Our first guest is a guest who we've been dying to have on the podcast for a very long time, and we finally made it work.
3:39
SPEAKER_06: He is an IDA judge on our roster and a fabulous current working professional and musical theater performer in New York City.
3:46
SPEAKER_06: I'm excited to welcome Caleb Dickey to the podcast.
3:49
SPEAKER_06: Welcome, Caleb.
3:50
SPEAKER_02: Hey y'all, thanks for having me.
3:53
unknown: Yes.
3:54
SPEAKER_00: Yes, I can't believe you haven't been on before.
3:56
SPEAKER_00: I I've like Courtney said that, and I was like, is that true?
3:58
SPEAKER_00: No.
3:59
SPEAKER_00: But I guess it's a good thing.
3:59
SPEAKER_02: We were actually scheduling uh like the day before, and then I had an audition.
4:04
SPEAKER_02: I was like, I'm sorry, Courtney, I gotta go to this callback.
4:06
SPEAKER_02: And then she was like, Oh, and I booked it.
4:09
SPEAKER_02: So like it was like I was like, I did.
4:11
SPEAKER_02: So like Oh, hello.
4:13
SPEAKER_02: And I'm and then every time I'm like, I'm looking at the the topics, I'm like, oh I like I love these topics.
4:18
SPEAKER_02: And this one came up, I was like, oh, I really feel like uh this one's important to me.
4:22
SPEAKER_02: So I really wanted to dive into this one.
4:24
SPEAKER_02: So I'm excited.
4:25
SPEAKER_06: Yeah.
4:26
SPEAKER_06: I I think I think the episode that we tried to have you on when you booked the job, I think might have been the prop episode.
4:33
SPEAKER_06: Or was that it?
4:34
SPEAKER_02: Um it was because I have a prop blem.
4:38
SPEAKER_02: I love props too much, but I have strong opinions on props.
4:42
SPEAKER_02: Like I could talk for an hour about props.
4:44
SPEAKER_06: So uh specialties.
4:48
SPEAKER_06: And I think we were super sold.
4:50
SPEAKER_06: Uh or well, we all remember the Caleb Dickey solo that we watched on the virtual competition that was about the pizza and the hopelessly devoted to you.
4:59
SPEAKER_06: And we just like all we still talk about it to this day.
5:02
unknown: Yeah.
5:02
SPEAKER_06: Oh good.
5:03
SPEAKER_06: Such clever use of it.
5:05
SPEAKER_06: Thank you, thank you.
5:06
SPEAKER_06: Yeah, so we knew we wanted you for that one, but it's okay.
5:08
SPEAKER_06: You booked a job instead, so now you're here.
5:10
SPEAKER_06: And uh, Caleb, if you wouldn't mind sharing with our listeners and the dance world out there a little bit more about you, where you're base, where you grew up, what your training's like, any career credits you like to share, and what you're working on.
5:20
SPEAKER_02: Sure.
5:20
SPEAKER_02: I grew up on a dairy farm in Ohio, and I was a competition dancer with Miami Valley Dance Center, and then I went to college at Oklahoma City University for dance performance.
5:33
SPEAKER_02: Go stars out there.
5:37
SPEAKER_02: And then I moved to the city where I focused in uh mostly musical theater.
5:42
SPEAKER_02: And then you know, like you have like the gigs that come up in between uh contracts.
5:48
SPEAKER_02: I've always been a very uh storyline, story-driven bass dancer.
5:53
SPEAKER_02: So um I find that adds into my choreography when I teach back at home in Ohio, when I'm judging for IDA.
6:01
SPEAKER_02: I really uh dive into character and story.
6:03
SPEAKER_02: I think that's really important, and I'm gonna talk about that later when we get into uh stage fright.
6:08
SPEAKER_02: And some credits I have.
6:10
SPEAKER_02: Um, I was on HBO Max's The Gilded Age.
6:15
SPEAKER_04: Woo! Cool.
6:16
SPEAKER_02: I was an actor in that, no dancing.
6:18
SPEAKER_02: And then I for the audition that we were talking about was for the Met Opera.
6:22
SPEAKER_02: So I made my Met debut in Eurydice and then later on in Cinderella.
6:27
SPEAKER_02: And um, so right now I'm I'm so excited for next season to start judging.
6:31
SPEAKER_02: I'm like really looking forward to it.
6:34
SPEAKER_02: And uh that's me in a nutshell.
6:35
SPEAKER_02: I'm so excited to talk with y'all.
6:37
SPEAKER_06: Yes.
6:38
SPEAKER_06: And Caleb has a podcast as well.
6:39
SPEAKER_06: Caleb, do you want to plug your podcast?
6:42
SPEAKER_02: Yes, it's uh Equity One, Broadway's Happy Hour with Elliot Maddox.
6:45
SPEAKER_02: We sit down with uh theater individuals, performers, designers, directors, choreographers, everyone in the theater umbrella, and we just have a uh beverage of choice, and uh we just uh chat and really dive into what um got us started in the arts.
7:04
SPEAKER_02: That's how we start every conversation and uh go on a unique journey and listen to us uh anywhere you get your podcast.
7:11
SPEAKER_06: Yes.
7:12
SPEAKER_06: Very cool.
7:13
SPEAKER_06: I love that.
7:13
SPEAKER_06: We've been saying for forever that we need to do like an making the impact after hours with potentially a beverage of choice in hand and just like just you know.
7:22
SPEAKER_02: You have to be very uh yeah, you have to stay focused because if you have it's a long conversation, you can get off topic very easily.
7:29
SPEAKER_02: And for the editors, they're like, oh my gosh, how am I gonna edit this?
7:34
SPEAKER_06: Noted.
7:36
SPEAKER_06: Well, Caleb, we're pumped to have you on this chat.
7:39
SPEAKER_06: Thanks for joining us.
7:40
SPEAKER_02: Thank you.
7:41
SPEAKER_06: All right, and our next very special guest is a brand new guest to our podcast, and also someone that I'm just currently meeting right now.
7:49
SPEAKER_06: Leslie discovered this fabulous person on social media.
7:53
SPEAKER_06: And as we were looking for a guest for this episode, we knew we wanted someone in the mental health field to come and give their perspective.
8:00
SPEAKER_06: But what makes this person even more amazing is that they're also a dancer.
8:05
SPEAKER_06: So they're coming from that mental health perspective.
8:08
SPEAKER_06: They're currently a working therapist and a performance coach who've received their master's in mental health counseling.
8:13
SPEAKER_06: I'm excited to welcome Glenn Keelish to the podcast.
8:16
SPEAKER_06: Welcome, Glenn.
8:17
SPEAKER_01: Howdy, howdy.
8:18
SPEAKER_01: Hey, thanks for having me.
8:19
SPEAKER_01: It's really exciting to be here.
8:20
SPEAKER_06: Yeah, I know.
8:21
SPEAKER_06: I'm so glad that our paths united via social media and you were able to squeeze us into your busy schedule and sit down with us to chat dance tonight and stage fright, which is definitely an important topic to cover.
8:34
SPEAKER_06: So thank you.
8:36
SPEAKER_01: No, thank you.
8:36
SPEAKER_01: This is uh this uh mental health and and dance is what got me started in this field, so I'm really happy to be here.
8:42
SPEAKER_06: Awesome.
8:43
SPEAKER_06: So, same thing.
8:44
SPEAKER_06: If you want to tell the world a little bit more about you.
8:47
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, so I have had a love-hate relationship with dance uh my entire life.
8:52
SPEAKER_01: I actually also started in the comp world.
8:55
SPEAKER_01: I was a competition dancer for a few years before a teacher came to me and said, Hey, if you want to do this dancing, you need to get better at ballet.
9:04
SPEAKER_01: Which led me to a ballet studio.
9:07
SPEAKER_01: I was kind of mainstream sports growing up, played football, basketball, all the good stuff.
9:12
SPEAKER_01: But then in high school, at the very end of it, decided to focus on ballet.
9:16
SPEAKER_01: That took me to IU, Indian University's Jacobs School of Music, um, where I was a ballet major there.
9:21
SPEAKER_01: I also majored in sports marketing and management.
9:24
SPEAKER_01: After IU, I went to the Kansas City Ballet and I was there for a short amount of time before going back to IU because I got a concussion and mental health stuff.
9:34
SPEAKER_01: But that's what led me to a career in mental health.
9:37
SPEAKER_01: Um, so it's all with a silver lining.
9:39
SPEAKER_01: And then uh uh the director of the Indianapolis Ballet said, Hey, are you still dancing?
9:44
SPEAKER_01: And I said, No, but uh I'm interested.
9:46
SPEAKER_01: And so I kept dancing for a couple more years uh with the Indianapolis Ballet.
9:50
SPEAKER_01: So my my professional career is in ballet, uh, but I have a background in comp dance and then eventually said that I wanted to take the mental health thing uh fully by the by the horns and give that everything I had because I saw a need and there weren't as many resources as uh there are for mainstream sports like football, basketball, baseball.
10:08
SPEAKER_01: There are required to have psychologists on staff and everything.
10:11
SPEAKER_01: To my knowledge, the dance companies I've worked for and been a part of do not know.
10:18
SPEAKER_01: So I saw that I saw there was a need and I wanted to be a resource because I certainly could have used one myself when I was in a company.
10:24
SPEAKER_01: Um so it's kind of where the inspiration came from.
10:26
SPEAKER_01: And so here we are.
10:27
SPEAKER_01: But yeah, so now I'm working as a therapist, um a performance coach, and I also do some speaking for dance studios.
10:32
SPEAKER_06: And you also have a podcast.
10:35
SPEAKER_01: I do.
10:36
SPEAKER_01: Tell the world.
10:37
SPEAKER_01: Yes, so my podcast is called The Mental Game.
10:40
SPEAKER_01: It is essentially I'm having conversations with dancers, performers, I've had a gymnast on, um, all kinds of athletes, but more so in the performance community.
10:51
SPEAKER_01: Um and I'm really just trying to start conversations around mental health because I feel like there's not enough of that.
10:57
SPEAKER_01: Um even in my latter years of being a you know ballet dancer, I felt like it was becoming a conversation, but people were still afraid to talk about it.
11:05
SPEAKER_01: Um and I still saw people struggling so much to bring it up, um and they felt scared.
11:11
SPEAKER_01: And so that was kind of my goal in creating the podcast was let's just continue to create as much awareness around this as possible.
11:17
SPEAKER_01: So I've had some really incredible guests share some things on the show that they hadn't shared publicly or at all with people before, which is incredibly powerful.
11:26
SPEAKER_01: I'm very grateful for um my guests and my listeners and everything.
11:29
SPEAKER_01: And so it's it's been a really cool experience because you know it's kind of like part therapist hat, part dancer hat at the same time.
11:35
SPEAKER_01: Um yeah, it's been it's been really incredible.
11:37
SPEAKER_01: It's been fun.
11:38
SPEAKER_01: The mental game.
11:40
SPEAKER_00: The mental game.
11:40
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
11:41
SPEAKER_00: And where can you find the mental game?
11:43
SPEAKER_01: Apple Podcasts and Spotify.
11:45
SPEAKER_01: I think Google Podcasts.
11:48
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
11:48
SPEAKER_01: So those three platforms.
11:50
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, thanks for asking.
11:51
SPEAKER_06: We will definitely be linking both of y'all's podcasts in our show notes.
11:56
SPEAKER_06: And uh I hope everyone gives a listen to them both because we all love more podcasts in the dance and performance world.
12:03
SPEAKER_06: So give a listen, everybody, and support our guests.
12:06
SPEAKER_06: Yes, I'm excited to jump into this.
12:09
SPEAKER_06: Thank you both for being here.
12:10
SPEAKER_06: Let's do it.
12:11
SPEAKER_00: Let's do it.
12:13
SPEAKER_00: All right, so I guess let's get a little personal as we jump right on in.
12:17
SPEAKER_00: I I have definitely had stage fright, not as much in dancing, but in my um brief career as like a supporting character in a musical where I have to say words on a stage.
12:30
SPEAKER_00: I'm really I just I don't know what it is in the moment.
12:33
SPEAKER_00: Like, I think I would love to hear about Caleb's experience talking about stage fright in terms of like characterization, because like I just want to kick my face.
12:41
SPEAKER_00: I want to be tree number four and kick my face and like be very pretty.
12:44
SPEAKER_00: And I don't want to necessarily be another person because I think if you can be another person, maybe your stage fright isn't that bad because you're not you.
12:53
SPEAKER_00: You're trying to be Carol or whatever.
12:55
SPEAKER_02: Carol, love Carol.
12:58
SPEAKER_00: And I just I could never get into that mindset.
13:01
SPEAKER_00: And so I was always just like terrified.
13:03
SPEAKER_00: And this would this this would go on for like months of a show.
13:07
SPEAKER_00: I'd be doing a show every night, and right before I would have to go on and say a line, I would just like my physical anxiety would would heighten, I would get clammy, I would get hot, I would get sweaty, and my you I you could never hear me speak a line without like a waver in my voice.
13:20
SPEAKER_00: And it was like, okay, this is not for me.
13:22
SPEAKER_00: Like apparently the stage fright is enough that like this isn't going to prevent me from doing anything.
13:27
SPEAKER_00: So like that's my experience with stage fright.
13:30
SPEAKER_00: Does anybody else have a personal experience they'd like to share to break the ice?
13:34
SPEAKER_02: I was thinking about this the first time that I can remember stage fight was I switched from kind of we were uh second through eighth grade.
13:42
SPEAKER_02: I was at one studio, and we were recreational competition.
13:46
SPEAKER_02: We didn't train very hard.
13:48
SPEAKER_02: Um, and then my freshman year I switched to Miami Valley, and I remember at Nationals uh was my uh uh first time that I felt stage right to do my solo because I was asked to come back and compete against all of these other titleists who were seniors, and I was like, oh wow, like I'm going up against them, and I why do I even stand a chance?
14:13
SPEAKER_02: And I remember one of the seniors pulling me aside and being like, Caleb, you know your solo, you know what you're doing out there, so don't worry about everyone else.
14:22
SPEAKER_02: Go out there and be the best that you can be, and not think about don't try and compare yourself because you're always gonna uh fail when you start compare uh comparing.
14:32
SPEAKER_02: So that was my first thought of stage fright is that comparison uh when I was a freshman.
14:39
SPEAKER_00: Compare leads to despair.
14:41
SPEAKER_00: That's you know that is something we all have to it is, yes.
14:45
SPEAKER_00: You have to drill that into your head for your whole life, I think.
14:49
SPEAKER_02: And then the other time that I think as like a professional was uh doing West Side's story for uh Joey McNeely in the industry.
15:00
SPEAKER_02: You know, he's a very intense director and choreographer.
15:03
SPEAKER_06: Oh yeah.
15:04
SPEAKER_02: Scary a little bit, and it's just kind of old school.
15:06
SPEAKER_02: Scary and like and he also, Joey, I love you to death, and he knows that he's like this, so no, I'm no problem name-dropping him or anything like that.
15:14
SPEAKER_02: But every um there was this part of the ballet in Act Two, there's this really intense partnering section.
15:20
SPEAKER_05: Mm-hmm.
15:21
SPEAKER_02: Putasise.
15:22
SPEAKER_02: And um, I would have to mentally walk myself through that entire section before we eat during intermission.
15:30
SPEAKER_02: So I felt like I did it like once mentally before I could go on stage, just so like I could get all of like the the muscle memory back into my body before I went on stage.
15:41
SPEAKER_02: So I also thought that would uh that really helped me get through once I got on stage.
15:46
SPEAKER_06: Yeah.
15:47
SPEAKER_06: Yeah.
15:48
SPEAKER_06: I feel like that these days as a professional, something I've noticed is uh I guess this is kind of stage right.
15:54
SPEAKER_06: I start getting in my head a lot.
15:56
SPEAKER_06: I mean, I'm sure we all do, but like I start second guessing myself, and then I start freaking out that I'm not gonna remember the choreography right before the song starts or I'm supposed to go.
16:08
SPEAKER_06: And then I just black out on stage.
16:11
SPEAKER_06: This is a new thing.
16:12
SPEAKER_06: And somehow I'm just crossing my fingers and saying, well, here we go.
16:16
SPEAKER_06: And I just hope that my I just know what I'm doing.
16:19
SPEAKER_06: And this is like happened in the last few shows that I've done.
16:22
SPEAKER_06: Anytime I get on stage, I just black out and trust that I'm gonna do it.
16:25
SPEAKER_06: And that freaks me.
16:26
SPEAKER_06: I don't like that feeling because I feel very uh disconnected and separated from like my craft, and I don't even know if I'm like even performing to my fullest because I don't really even remember.
16:38
SPEAKER_06: Like halfway through, I start to relax and I'm I'm there again.
16:41
SPEAKER_06: But like at least for the first 30 seconds, I am totally not present on stage, and that's kind of freaky.
16:48
SPEAKER_06: Yeah.
16:48
SPEAKER_06: Wow.
16:49
SPEAKER_06: Yeah, it's a little scary.
16:50
SPEAKER_06: It's definitely a new thing.
16:51
SPEAKER_06: I've never felt that I would say, like the past maybe like four years, that's been a new thing.
16:56
SPEAKER_06: I haven't been on stage like performing in a while because you know, pandemic in life.
17:02
SPEAKER_06: But I specifically remember like the last time I was doing uh Jerome Robbins Broadway at Theater Under the Stars was the last time I was like actually in a performing job.
17:10
SPEAKER_06: There was like before I did the King and I section, I just remember sitting backstage waiting and like thinking, I don't know if I'm gonna remember what's what's about to happen when I get out on stage.
17:19
SPEAKER_06: Like I specifically, every night, act top of act two, who knew what was gonna happen, but I I guess I did it.
17:25
SPEAKER_06: I was okay.
17:26
SPEAKER_06: You didn't get fired.
17:27
SPEAKER_06: Exactly.
17:29
SPEAKER_06: I made it the Quran and I did my job.
17:31
SPEAKER_01: You must not have done two poils.
17:33
SPEAKER_01: It's Courtney, it's funny that you mentioned that being worrying about choreography in particular because my stage fright experiences have come um by way of just worrying about how well I'll perform, but then I've forgotten choreography because of it.
17:49
SPEAKER_01: So mine have been uh I was doing a guesting.
17:53
SPEAKER_01: It was my first professional guesting as a ballet dancer, and I was doing a performance with this with this um company.
18:00
SPEAKER_01: It's actually uh it was a it was a ballet company, but I was just uh I forget.
18:04
SPEAKER_01: I was I was more of a it was a primary role, but like a secondary dance within the performance.
18:11
SPEAKER_01: Either way, it was my first time doing guesting, so it's you know, the the accommodations, like everything was making me nervous.
18:17
SPEAKER_01: I had never been picked up by someone.
18:19
SPEAKER_01: I didn't know like, should I go to the grocery store?
18:22
SPEAKER_01: Like I don't really know how any of this works.
18:24
SPEAKER_01: And so all of it was kind of making me nervous, and it all added up to that first dress rehearsal.
18:29
SPEAKER_01: I was I was worried about yeah, I was comparing myself to the other dancers.
18:33
SPEAKER_01: I wanted to make sure that they were happy um with what they were getting in me.
18:36
SPEAKER_01: Uh and then in that dress rehearsal, maybe a minute or two minutes into the piece that we were doing, I just completely forgot everything I was doing.
18:44
SPEAKER_04: Oh wow.
18:45
SPEAKER_01: And we had to stop, and um, and I had never experienced a guesting before, so you know, of course, was very embarrassed, but that was that was definitely my stage fright experience.
18:55
SPEAKER_01: My first one.
18:56
SPEAKER_01: My first stage fright experience.
18:58
SPEAKER_01: But that'll yeah, the forgetting choreography thing, that'll hit you.
19:02
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I mean, and it's and it's wild because I feel like all of all of these experience experiences are with pieces of material that you know that you've learned, that you've practiced, that you're possibly being paid to do.
19:16
SPEAKER_00: I never had the issue at an audition.
19:18
SPEAKER_06: Really?
19:19
SPEAKER_00: Like I would learn the choreography, know it, do it, not like maybe I would forget it occasionally, but like there's other people, you have a mirror.
19:27
SPEAKER_00: There was never a moment, I feel like in an audition where I was like, I don't think I can do this.
19:31
SPEAKER_00: Oh, right, right, right.
19:32
SPEAKER_00: You know, like that that moment of sort of stage fright that you get before you do a show.
19:36
SPEAKER_00: It's different.
19:36
SPEAKER_00: I feel like it's it's it's different.
19:38
SPEAKER_00: And I and I feel like that there's gotta be something in your brain that's like, you know, it's new material, so something fires differently up there with your memory, maybe, and or you don't have time to psych yourself out because you're just like, boom, it's my turn, as opposed to okay, I've been working on this for nine months and I'm gonna go on stage and this this one moment really matters because this is the title, you know, the title routine of the competition and I have to do it right.
20:00
SPEAKER_00: Like I think that pressure is a different feeling than like an in-the-moment audition pressure.
20:05
SPEAKER_06: Kind of like what you just said.
20:06
SPEAKER_06: I mean, if you think about it, competition is almost blending performance and audition at the same time.
20:12
SPEAKER_06: Like that's like two different skills.
20:13
SPEAKER_06: That stresses me out just thinking about that.
20:16
SPEAKER_06: Because, like you said, like auditioning is hard in itself, but it's kind of a little like you want the job, obviously, so you're giving it your all, but at the same time, it is a different kind of nervousness than you would if you have to go out and do a performance on stage by yourself.
20:30
SPEAKER_06: Like, not even in a competition aspect.
20:32
SPEAKER_06: Like it, if I'm asked to do a solo at this very moment as an adult professional, I am stressed to the max, scared, terrified, sweating profusely.
20:42
SPEAKER_06: Like, you know, like I am I don't love, I don't like that feeling.
20:45
SPEAKER_06: I still, like to this day, I'm 33 years old.
20:47
SPEAKER_06: Like, I'm always gonna be nervous to enter the stage, especially more so if I'm by myself than if I'm with others, because there's more stakes, it's more pressure, it's just you, you know?
20:56
SPEAKER_06: So I can't imagine what the kids, I mean, we all obviously competed at a point in time, it sounds like so.
21:02
SPEAKER_06: Like, I definitely was confident when I was young, and I know I got nervous, but I think it it definitely adjusts and changes as you get older too.
21:10
SPEAKER_06: You experience different types of nervousness, and I'm sure the dancers listening are probably shaking their head, like, yep, when you were when you're eight, you're fearless.
21:19
SPEAKER_06: When you're 15, you're in your head, you're freaking out, you know?
21:22
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, it's like you don't know any better when you're little, so you're just going out there and having a good time.
21:27
SPEAKER_02: Like I never had stage fright in a group number growing up in high school or anything like that.
21:32
SPEAKER_02: I was always like, Oh, I got my team around me.
21:34
SPEAKER_02: Like, maybe there's a lift where you're like, okay, we gotta get through this lift.
21:38
SPEAKER_02: But then otherwise, I'm like, oh, like we've got this, y'all.
21:41
SPEAKER_02: Let's go do it.
21:42
SPEAKER_04: Mm-hmm.
21:42
SPEAKER_02: Mm-hmm.
21:43
SPEAKER_02: It is the solos.
21:44
SPEAKER_02: I feel like you get it a lot.
21:46
SPEAKER_02: Yes.
21:46
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
21:47
SPEAKER_01: I would also be curious.
21:48
SPEAKER_01: I don't know if you guys have had this experience.
21:49
SPEAKER_01: Like for me, it was when I was getting paid to do something.
21:53
SPEAKER_01: I felt like there was a different expectation on it.
21:55
SPEAKER_01: Like, for some reason, when I was even when I was doing a solo as a like as a comp kid or when I was doing a solo in a ballet competition, it felt different and it compared to when I was getting paid.
22:08
SPEAKER_01: It was like that the the first few those first few performances of that just felt like there were more at at stake.
22:16
SPEAKER_01: I don't know if you guys had that experience.
22:18
SPEAKER_00: Well I think it's one of those things where it's like you get that imposter syndrome sometimes and you're like, okay, I've got this job.
22:25
SPEAKER_00: That means I'm qualified.
22:26
SPEAKER_00: But I'm really nervous about this performance that I'm being paid for that somebody chose me for.
22:30
SPEAKER_00: Maybe I'm not actually good enough.
22:32
SPEAKER_00: Maybe they shouldn't be paying me for this.
22:34
SPEAKER_00: Like it kind of all just like spirals if you can if you put yourself in that mindset of like I don't deserve this job.
22:41
SPEAKER_00: And I think a lot of a lot of performers get you know fe feel that anxiety sometimes too that like again compare leads to despair.
22:48
SPEAKER_00: Like so and so is so much better than me.
22:49
SPEAKER_00: So and so is you know would have been better at this.
22:52
SPEAKER_00: I don't know.
22:52
SPEAKER_00: I think that that comes into play when money starts happening.
22:56
SPEAKER_00: And then also you know just sort of hearing about some of the things that are going on currently in the professional world you can get replaced real quick you know for many reasons.
23:05
SPEAKER_00: And so the the press the pressure of like having to do it right and having to do it properly and being worthy of the job you know of course people have anxiety about that.
23:17
SPEAKER_00: And so I hope the listeners like our our younger listeners are feeling some sort of relief to know that like we have we're all we have all been paid to dance professionally and we have all experienced this like kind of debilitating at times feeling you know nervous about our performance or stage fright before we go on.
23:33
SPEAKER_00: You're not alone.
23:33
SPEAKER_06: You're not alone no just like pleasing the choreographer like kind of like what you were talking about with Joey.
23:38
SPEAKER_06: I mean I worked with Joey as well in Westside and he is intense harder on the boys than he is on the girls I have to say but you know I think it's like in that job for me like Westside's story was my first actual musical so for me I knew I could dance that show I mean I knew I was the right dancer for this show.
24:00
SPEAKER_06: But was I the right was I qualified enough to be singing on stage?
24:05
SPEAKER_06: Was I qualified enough to have lions on stage like I've never done that before.
24:09
SPEAKER_06: So I was nervous to make sure that I was able to deliver the expectation of the job.
24:15
SPEAKER_06: And that's kind of like what you're saying Glenn of like okay you're you're getting paid you got the job and now you have to please the customer and and please the choreographer and please who hired you and like I'm sure that young dancers can feel the same when they're in a routine and they want to please their teacher and they want to please mom and dad because they're spending all this money and you know it's it's stressful.
24:35
SPEAKER_06: You put a lot of stress on you.
24:37
SPEAKER_06: I I definitely I I feel that still to this day when I go on to different jobs or even when I'm in certain auditions and I'm like am I even capable like am I the right candidate for this?
24:48
SPEAKER_06: Am I qualified for this?
24:49
SPEAKER_06: Like what happens if I get on the job and they expect me to do this, this and that and I can't or like what if my injury is going to prevent me from doing this then I can start getting anxiety because I'm not I can be replaced like you said Leslie like you you know that's a that's a scary thing to think that like we are replaceable.
25:05
SPEAKER_06: And we've talked about that on the podcast before as as far as like you know it's a it's a stigma in the dance industry that like you're always replaceable and you better be in tip top shape and better be ready but like you know ha always be on your A game.
25:19
SPEAKER_06: But it's it's a lot of pressure on us mentally.
25:24
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
25:24
SPEAKER_02: Well and then like when you're when you're the one replacing someone because that's almost all of my career was being a replacement for someone who got in the but don't you love being the replacement a little bit here like I came in like the day you're like the show in a week let's put me in boss I love being the replacement.
25:42
SPEAKER_00: I feel like it's a lot of when when when I put on my resume quick study I mean it like that's not a that's not a thing I just write that's a thing I mean but there's extra pressure there too.
25:51
SPEAKER_00: And like I I remember the last the my last job before I retired I learned a show in five days and we went on stage and we did anything goes and I remember that first night I was like I don't know if I I don't know if I actually know this.
26:05
SPEAKER_00: I mean some of those words and some of those songs like are just very wordy and you're like what I don't remember and I'm not the singer.
26:12
SPEAKER_00: I'm not like I said I don't want a line.
26:13
SPEAKER_00: I want to tap dance.
26:14
SPEAKER_00: I want to tap dance on the ship and like be done.
26:17
SPEAKER_00: But like that creates a whole different set of pressure when you're when you have that major expectation of saving the show or you know and then not injuring yourself in the process of like balls to the wall learn this tap show in four days.
26:30
SPEAKER_00: Yeah it's a it's a crazy world that we live in and and I think that I think some of the uh non-dance parents out there are might be really interested to hear all of this because like there's a lot more stress and pressure in our industry, I think, that than people realize.
26:44
SPEAKER_00: I think people sometimes are like oh they just sing and dance.
26:47
SPEAKER_00: It's really fun.
26:48
SPEAKER_00: You know, the ballet dancers are so beautiful.
26:49
SPEAKER_00: They l they pick up girls and it's but like there's just there's a lot going on behind the scenes um including anxiety and stage fright.
26:57
SPEAKER_06: Something that comes to mind with an another thing that makes me nervous whenever I have to do it in a show um to this day.
27:05
SPEAKER_06: And I'm sure Glenn you have I mean both of you have experience with this all of us do but partnering.
27:11
SPEAKER_06: So like I I like to be in control of myself.
27:15
SPEAKER_06: I I know what I'm capable of.
27:17
SPEAKER_06: I know how my body feels I know if my leg's gonna go a certain height today, if my back's going to bend a certain amount today.
27:25
SPEAKER_06: Then when you put the pressure of like partnering with someone else and especially like as a female identifying dancer partnering most oftentimes with a male identifying dancer and they're the one that's like manipulating you and like controlling you and guiding you, that stresses me out.
27:42
SPEAKER_06: Because I just don't know and especially in audition settings oh my God.
27:48
SPEAKER_01: Well you guys have to partner audition oh yes you don't even know this person.
27:54
SPEAKER_06: Exactly right I don't know whether you can know someone in the room and you make eyes come across the room and you're like uh huh there have been so in a time where people will like straight up scope me out in the audition because I'm also only five two so I'm really easy to partner.
28:08
SPEAKER_06: But then people also know that I'm a strong dancer so I like know how to support myself and people like immediately go, Courtney you're my partner and I'm like okay and sometimes I don't even want to be their partner because they're traffic.
28:19
SPEAKER_06: You know?
28:20
SPEAKER_06: And like if I have a if I have a partner that I can trust that I've worked with that we've worked out the kinks like I feel a little bit better.
28:26
SPEAKER_06: But even to this day you don't know what's going to happen.
28:29
SPEAKER_06: Adrenaline might set in and they might just be a whole new partner once you hit the stage like you know and then you get it feels unsafe for you.
28:36
SPEAKER_06: So like that that definitely I'm scared of that.
28:43
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29:07
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29:55
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30:09
SPEAKER_00: We're truly making the impact prep for the upcoming competition season today with IDA's online I remember this is like a little off topic but similar I had forgotten about this audition I auditioned for the Cinderella musical multiple times back when it was on tour and I got through I always got through the to the ballet partnering section and I'm similar to Courtney I am not even five feet tall and I am I think I'm a good partner.
30:36
SPEAKER_00: I can hold myself and carry myself but because I'm small they think they can give me the smaller man.
30:41
SPEAKER_00: So like somebody a dude who is five three which like I'm used to partnering my partners historically have been six two, six three, six four so like I'm used to just standing there and like lying through like I have to do nothing and this poor guy we were doing this the waltz and there was like a press there was an Arabesque press like and I was like I can't help you any more than I'm already helping you.
31:04
SPEAKER_00: You're I in heels I'm as tall as you this is like this is not gonna work.
31:08
SPEAKER_00: And it was you know and I don't want to say that's why I didn't book the job but like it did not help that this poor guy like you know it just wasn't happening and it was it was unfortunate for both of us but um yeah we do have to partner in musical theater auditions sometimes side of the scene and it's not fair.
31:21
SPEAKER_00: It's really rude.
31:24
SPEAKER_01: Well it's really it's really interesting for me to hear your guys' perspective on that because as a male identifying dancer I've never felt partnering is where I feel like I am at my best.
31:35
SPEAKER_01: I would rather partner than go do a solo.
31:38
SPEAKER_01: I would much rather partner than do my variation.
31:40
SPEAKER_06: Nice I love that.
31:41
SPEAKER_01: But I don't know if you're too well I've never I've never felt like technique was my thing.
31:50
SPEAKER_01: I've always felt like I had a knack for partnering because I was like a I was a football player growing up so weightlifting was always big and that's kind of what I always just set my sights on.
31:59
SPEAKER_01: Okay well I will always at least be a good partner.
32:01
SPEAKER_01: But I feel it's so interesting to hear your perspective because I've always felt super confident in partnering.
32:07
SPEAKER_01: Just because and maybe it's because of that control piece is is I've always been in control.
32:11
SPEAKER_01: And on the flip side of it to also hear you guys perspective I want to share a story I wasn't thinking of.
32:18
SPEAKER_01: I was doing uh the male lead in Giselle, his name's Albrecht and it was maybe our second show of the weekend and I had had just out of nowhere a lot of anxiety came up the night before and I didn't sleep and was struggling that day and I I don't really remember why at the moment.
32:35
SPEAKER_01: But I was a completely different partner in that moment and I'm sure my my partner was just scared to death.
32:41
SPEAKER_01: Um so I can't imagine actually being on the other side not feeling like you were in control.
32:45
SPEAKER_01: I'm sure that's just hard to deal with.
32:47
SPEAKER_06: It's actually relieving the like it it's it I'm kind of like glad we're talking about this because again I I've never really like talked to the male identifying side of this discussion because I just usually chat with other female dancers who are like venting sometimes about their partner and you know it and it it's really like a deal breaker in dance.
33:09
SPEAKER_06: Like if you if you don't have a partner that like meshes with you or you vibe with or that you can like even just give like you know hey I need a little bit more resistance here.
33:20
SPEAKER_06: I need a little bit more support here or they take offense to that and it's like it's and that's all like that kind of messes with your head because then you're afraid to partner with them every night you're gonna get anxious you're gonna have anxiety you're not gonna perform to your fullest like I there is a show I mean in musical theater especially like you do the same show over and over and over and over again.
33:40
SPEAKER_06: So like it's every night same partner here we go again and if you're like not vibing with them like I know for me that was like my one of my least favorite parts of the entire show every time I'd have to go partner with someone that like I was like man they're just like they're not giving me what I need but when I have a good partner like you sound like you are Glenn then it is it's amazing.
34:01
SPEAKER_06: Yeah like it's just like it changes everything and you just have a blast on stage.
34:05
SPEAKER_06: So you know and then that's going to change how you interpret the choreography that's gonna change your execution your performance like it really makes a difference.
34:13
SPEAKER_01: We don't have to think about it.
34:15
SPEAKER_01: If you're not worried about it, if you're not worried about your partner you don't have to think about it.
34:18
SPEAKER_06: So like adding the extra layer of like another person that you're responsible of is anxiety in itself because then you're already ner you're already nervous about you.
34:27
SPEAKER_06: Now you got to worry about somebody else you know it's it's tough.
34:32
SPEAKER_01: Mm-hmm.
34:32
SPEAKER_02: Yeah I never thought of that perspective that's interesting and I well obviously like I feel like it gets better with rehearsal.
34:41
SPEAKER_02: Like the more you work with someone the the less stressed you are so like that kind of like is the answer to stage fright I feel like is good muscle memory and rehearsal know what you're doing and you're gonna feel confident in yourself.
34:56
SPEAKER_02: For the last Christmas I got COVID and I was out at the opera and then the day I came back they were like great you're going on tonight and I was like okay I haven't danced in 15 days and I'm like okay what track am I going on for and then the partnering was all there but luckily like I had been reviewing and we rehearsed before I got COVID and it was just like you do those quick lifts that you have to do backstage and you're like okay like I've got this.
35:21
SPEAKER_02: I know it I'm I'm a little bit rusty but let's just do it.
35:24
SPEAKER_06: Wait when you were saying tracks were you a swing?
35:27
SPEAKER_02: I was a swing in Cinderella.
35:29
SPEAKER_06: Okay so I want to I'm actually really glad you went there because I wanted to talk about swinging which is Oh I love swinging.
35:35
SPEAKER_06: Oh you do?
35:37
SPEAKER_02: I do I'm obsessed with it.
35:38
SPEAKER_06: Okay so to all of our listeners out there in musical theater world and and dance company world they might not reference it as a swing but usually an understudy or a cover.
35:49
SPEAKER_06: Yeah so um swing cover understudy these are the people that are the replacements essentially so if someone gets sick like Caleb gets COVID then someone else will jump into his slot and swing in is what we call it in the theater world.
36:04
SPEAKER_06: So there's a lot of people who it's internally cover one another and know what the track is and that goes to like what the choreography is what their formation is what line they're singing what what they're saying if they have any speaking roles like all of that comes into play.
36:21
SPEAKER_06: And I feel like I'd love to hear your perspective on that because you say you love it.
36:25
SPEAKER_06: Now like I've never really had the opportunity to be a quote unquote swing.
36:30
SPEAKER_06: There were sections in like Westside's story that I understudied like the pot as and the ballet and things I'd have to jump in and swing in for that but it wasn't like an entire show of being one person.
36:42
SPEAKER_06: And even just jumping into one three minute section of a of a show stressed me out.
36:48
SPEAKER_06: Like the amount of anxiety that I would get and it's again we're going back to like am I able to deliver?
36:53
SPEAKER_06: Am I able to follow through?
36:54
SPEAKER_06: Am I gonna do the steps right?
36:56
SPEAKER_06: Am I gonna remember everything?
36:57
SPEAKER_06: Like that is so different than just doing your same show every every night.
37:03
SPEAKER_00: Well and and and am I in the case of a swing and am I gonna mess up everybody else?
37:07
SPEAKER_00: I care about everyone else.
37:08
SPEAKER_00: You know, even more so than if you were just the general track it's like the swing is really and you know Caleb you can speak to this a little bit but the the term shove with love you know is is how you work together to help a swing.
37:20
SPEAKER_02: But Caleb please go ahead and and explain so shove with love is like when you're like okay I know where I'm I know the general vicinity that I'm going to and your your castmates are gonna push you right into the spot.
37:32
SPEAKER_02: They're gonna give you a nice little hug or like it's a village scene you guys they're pulling you along you're like okay I guess I must be over here.
37:41
SPEAKER_00: You sing line three next there we go.
37:44
SPEAKER_02: I think swing people they have the brain for it if you love it, which I feel like I do.
37:51
SPEAKER_02: I see formations and I see where the whole where the missing person is so I I see like okay if it's three five three I know where I need to go in that lineup.
38:04
SPEAKER_02: So that's always helped me with my swinging the replacement job I had was for Lakage at good speed and I was replacing the swings so I had to learn eight tracks.
38:14
SPEAKER_05: Oh wow in heels.
38:16
SPEAKER_02: So that was so that was a lot of fun.
38:18
SPEAKER_02: I I just love it because it is something uh fresh every time you go on I love creating the show Bible I love creating the notes and the videos and jumping into someone else's track while so you're you're staying in their track and their guidelines, but creating your own character and giving it your own kind of spice to it, that also excites me.
38:40
SPEAKER_02: I like uh mixing up things a lot.
38:43
SPEAKER_02: And I think knowing ahead of time the spots that you need to hit and rehearse are important for all those wannabe swings out there.
38:51
SPEAKER_02: That helps you so you don't get the stage right when it comes to the number you're like okay I I you have your hit points and you're like okay I know I have to sing this line and I meet up with Jessica little notes like that and that helps you get through the show.
39:04
SPEAKER_02: And every time it's a thrill and then luckily hopefully you'll get to go on multiple times for that track and you're like oh I love seeing Courtney at the gym like it's fun when I get to see her or like seeing Leslie at the market or something like that.
39:19
SPEAKER_02: It's fun like having those new moments and it keeps everything kind of fresh for me.
39:24
SPEAKER_06: Yeah.
39:25
SPEAKER_06: It sounds stressful.
39:26
SPEAKER_06: Yeah it sounds stressful you're like you're just like I love it it's great.
39:32
SPEAKER_00: I'm like sitting here like anxious thinking about that like my my one swing experience was my very first professional job at Six Flags Over Georgia in the Bugs Bunny Looney Tune show in which I swung Taz, Daffy and and Tweety Bird love Tweety outside five five shows a day outside in Georgia in the summer.
39:56
SPEAKER_00: But the issue with that is when you're in a costume character or a character costume, you're like, who am I in?
40:02
SPEAKER_00: Who am I in right now?
40:03
SPEAKER_00: Am I Daffy or am I Tweety?
40:05
SPEAKER_00: Like the anxiety figure out which which bird am I today?
40:10
SPEAKER_06: That's so funny.
40:11
SPEAKER_06: That's so true.
40:12
SPEAKER_06: I'm sure it's true.
40:13
SPEAKER_06: Good memories.
40:14
SPEAKER_02: Would the eyes be differently would you like see out of a different eyeball or anything like that?
40:18
SPEAKER_00: Or like Yeah you see out of um the mouth on Devi and you and you do see out of the eyes on Tweety because Tweety's eyes are so the eyes take up more of the of the face.
40:30
SPEAKER_00: Wow that's but um yeah so can we let's let's think about our students now since we have really covered ourselves as performers back in the day and currently I remember I've I've had the students before who really did have some some very severe anxiety about performing and you know I didn't really know quite how to help them besides my suggestion of, you know, we just need to practice.
40:55
SPEAKER_00: If you just practice you you know what you're doing.
40:57
SPEAKER_00: I know you know what you're doing and we would practice and practice and practice and you know I don't know that that's really the most helpful.
41:03
SPEAKER_00: So Glenn I wonder if from your therapist perspective overcoming this kind of thing for somebody who's maybe naturally predisposed to anxiety what do you do you have any tips or anything that has been useful for you with your students in the past?
41:17
SPEAKER_01: Yeah well I you know I think the practice thing is really interesting because if we're if we're thinking of stage fright ways that I've come out of my stage fright are typically through just practice.
41:26
SPEAKER_01: It sounds simple.
41:27
SPEAKER_01: I think what's important is that something different will work for everyone.
41:32
SPEAKER_01: There's not a one size fits all and so what what works for me might work for someone else.
41:37
SPEAKER_01: Typically what I try to tell students is number one we need to create some awareness around the experience we're having you know so are we having anxious apprehensions are we having anxious arousal anxious apprehensions being are those you know are those thoughts are we having some negative deprecating thoughts that are ruminating are we worrying what does that look like for us so naming the experience um arousal being is it a bodily experience are we sweating is our heart starting to race does our brain become foggy you know sometimes our brain becomes foggy when we get anxious and if our brain's foggy we can't think clearly so understanding what we're experiencing uh so I like to name it first um and then trying to trying to figure out how they can then own that experience so understanding that it's manifesting own how it's manifesting acceptance is one of the most difficult parts of anxiety but typically if we're having anxiety and we think of it like a triangle if we think of like our trigger and we think of our reaction we think of usually avoidance we want to avoid the anxiety but that just kind of closes the triangle and then it continues or a hamster wheel right so if we have anxiety typically we get anxious about the anxiety and it just gets worse and worse and worse.
42:51
SPEAKER_01: So we need to we need to implement something and some sort of acceptance um allowing the experience to happen so that it can run its course and then some some sort of intervention.
43:02
SPEAKER_01: So my favorite intervention is imagery.
43:06
SPEAKER_01: I love visualizing I love imagery so I have students you know sit for five minutes, close your eyes let's think about the experience.
43:14
SPEAKER_01: So if it's a dance competition for example we might include the five senses.
43:18
SPEAKER_01: You know so what are five things you see four things you hear three things you smell etc etc so we're putting them in that environment to where they might then experience some of these symptoms um and then we're taking them through the process of it.
43:32
SPEAKER_01: We're having them get in the dressing room get dressed go backstage uh all with your eyes closed go backstage and then dance and how are you experiencing this?
43:42
SPEAKER_01: Because you experience anxiety pre show, during and then after so the after is just as important.
43:47
SPEAKER_01: How do we how do we interpret what just happened?
43:50
SPEAKER_01: Um so I like to have dancers walk through something like that.
43:54
SPEAKER_01: So naming the experience owning it and then implementing an intervention like the one I just suggested is is is An example of some things that I like to have dancers do.
44:02
SPEAKER_02: That's amazing.
44:04
SPEAKER_02: Truly.
44:05
SPEAKER_01: Thanks.
44:05
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, the the grounding techniques I think with the senses are are helpful for anything.
44:10
SPEAKER_00: I mean, that's like a really great technique for any kind of moment of anxiety is just to like root yourself in the experience.
44:16
SPEAKER_00: And I think for teachers, like that's a very easy thing to sit down and do with a whole class of people.
44:22
SPEAKER_00: So like maybe you've got one or two kids in a in a routine that are experiencing this anxiety, you know, not singling them out and making them do it themselves, but like that whole scenario is beneficial for everybody, you know, just to sort of harness the power of visualization and pre-coping, coping ahead with whatever the scenario may be, because you know, when it really comes down to it, competition is is heightened.
44:45
SPEAKER_00: It's a heightened state of affairs and there's a lot going on, and especially for new dancers, or you know, I I would assume probably back after 2020 when we had a season off really, and then coming back into that environment of oh, here we go again, like what competition.
45:00
SPEAKER_00: It's been a year.
45:02
SPEAKER_00: Probably really, really helpful for some people to to kind of get back in their body and feel what it's like to get back on stage.
45:08
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
45:09
SPEAKER_02: Um, I liked what you said, Leslie, about um or what you both said about sitting everyone down together and getting a collective.
45:17
SPEAKER_02: So then it feels like it evens the playing field for all of the dancers.
45:20
SPEAKER_02: I know sometimes you're dealing with like I have ages 13 through 18 in my senior jazz.
45:26
SPEAKER_02: They're all lovely dancers, but sometimes I try and unite us all from the beginning of the rehearsal.
45:31
SPEAKER_02: I we sit down in a circle, we like talk about our day.
45:35
SPEAKER_02: I know that's this uh we go quickly, we can't spend the whole rehearsal doing this, but like something that bothers us.
45:41
SPEAKER_02: But you always do a negative and then I always bring it back with a positive, and we all share the experience, so we're all uh working together, so it doesn't feel like you're alone in it because uh you're never alone.
45:51
SPEAKER_02: And I think dance is such a um community, and I think we forget that a lot of the times, that you uh really lean on the people around you because it is a collective experience and you can really learn from everyone with you.
46:04
SPEAKER_06: Yeah, I mean, even just listening and and thinking about uh from personal experience, but also things that I've witnessed from other dancers backstage and getting prepped for competition, and like you said, the heightened experience of what competition dance even is, it's it's over stimulation and and in a lot happening.
46:25
SPEAKER_06: And I think that everyone has their own type of pre-performance ritual and things that they like to do to prep them mentally to prepare for a performance.
46:36
SPEAKER_06: Everyone's different as far as how they want to do that, whether it is let's all get together and let's have like this energy feeling and let's get on the same page and just have a moment together and breathe, you know, like breathing's important.
46:49
SPEAKER_06: Or there might be some of those dancers that will do that and then immediately following they will go in their zone and they don't want to be talked to and they want to just think about life and think about them, and that's like what they need in that moment.
47:00
SPEAKER_06: But what I immediately started thinking of that I think can help is at least creating a safe environment and a low stress environment.
47:10
SPEAKER_06: Um, those quick changes are frantic, you know, mom screaming at you to don't forget your earrings, like, oh my gosh, you have the wrong shoes on, like whatever it is.
47:20
SPEAKER_06: But you know, there's so much going on, there's so many moving parts that, like, if we can just try to keep calm, I'm immediately like, no offense to my mom, but like I'm immediately thinking of my mother in the in those crazy days where it was just like chaotic and like, what are you telling me?
47:35
SPEAKER_06: You forgot this, and you know, like, cause it's crazy, it's frantic and crazy.
47:39
SPEAKER_06: And then that gets you stressed, and then you can't concentrate on you and you can't have your pre-show relaxation or you know, mental decompression at all.
47:48
SPEAKER_06: So I think, you know, trying to figure out what works best for you individually, because like you said, Glenn, everyone's different as far as what's going to work for them.
47:56
SPEAKER_06: Some people might not have a care in the world before they enter the stage and they might might slay and make it look easy.
48:03
SPEAKER_06: And others might be so stressed out the moment they step on stage and it shows in their performance.
48:10
SPEAKER_06: So it's like kind of trying to navigate like how can the main goal is to not have it show in our performance.
48:16
SPEAKER_06: You don't want that to hinder you and all of your hard work, but it's trying to figure out like what's the best approach to navigate that.
48:23
SPEAKER_06: And it's it's trial and error, I think.
48:25
SPEAKER_01: I think that's such a good point because I'm thinking of like when I was I remember being a comp kid.
48:30
SPEAKER_01: I was the kid who like let's uh my dad and I would play basketball in any because they were always at like random high schools, and we would be playing basketball in the gym until it was like time to go on.
48:41
SPEAKER_01: That's awesome.
48:42
SPEAKER_01: But other kids but that was like that was that was a long time ago.
48:46
SPEAKER_01: But you know, I feel like everyone has their kind of thing.
48:48
SPEAKER_01: Like some people like to be super in the zone, some people like to just kind of be like hanging out and messing around, we're talking with people, we're having a good time.
48:54
SPEAKER_01: You know, that makes me feel calm.
48:55
SPEAKER_01: But I think that's such a good point in understanding what works for you too.
48:58
SPEAKER_01: And then how can we implement that and be intentional about it?
49:02
SPEAKER_06: Because I'm sure there's like a lot of moms who are like, you know, the helicopter hovering moms that are just like, Are you okay?
49:08
SPEAKER_06: Is everything fine?
49:08
SPEAKER_06: Do you have everything you need?
49:10
SPEAKER_06: And sometimes the kid is probably like, Mom, just calm down and let me do my thing.
49:14
SPEAKER_06: Geez, like, you know, so I think on the parents' end, sometimes it's just nice to take a step back as well, especially if your dancer is a little bit older, a little more mature in their teens, like give them their space, let them do their thing.
49:27
SPEAKER_06: Like at this point, they're practically professionals, they've been probably competing since they were five.
49:32
SPEAKER_06: Like they know the drill, they know how to change the like get their costumes prepped and ready.
49:36
SPEAKER_02: Like, so you know, that whole thing Or let them fail so they can learn something.
49:41
SPEAKER_02: Yes, that's like that's a good option too.
49:43
SPEAKER_02: Like get some responsibility to them.
49:45
SPEAKER_02: Like it's worth it.
49:47
SPEAKER_02: Yes.
49:48
SPEAKER_02: I was thinking about uh when we're judging a lot.
49:52
SPEAKER_02: I think the stage fight that you see, uh not off stage but on stage is when you forget your dance.
49:58
SPEAKER_02: And I'm always like, if it's a solo, you are the only one on stage, no one else knows this dance besides you.
50:07
SPEAKER_02: So like find the beat and just give us some improv until you can remember something and keep going.
50:15
SPEAKER_02: Like uh that it just with the more you push through, the stronger you'll be.
50:19
SPEAKER_02: Because when you run off stage, you lose all of the energy and the work that you've done, and you're just kind of giving up.
50:25
SPEAKER_04: Right.
50:26
SPEAKER_02: I really love it.
50:27
SPEAKER_02: Um and I understand if it's just like completely not gonna happen, but keep trying to push through and then come back.
50:33
SPEAKER_02: Feel like collectors, take the moment to collect yourself.
50:36
SPEAKER_02: Don't like come back on and then forget it again.
50:38
SPEAKER_02: Do what you need to do off stage to center yourself.
50:41
SPEAKER_02: Remember what you messed up and then and then move on from that.
50:46
SPEAKER_02: So I think it's good to uh finish the dance when you when you when you don't do it the first time.
50:52
SPEAKER_02: I think so.
50:53
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
50:54
SPEAKER_00: I mean, I think an important thing to remember too, and like this is this is something I learned in therapy.
50:59
SPEAKER_00: So if you're not in therapy, go to therapy.
51:02
SPEAKER_00: The feeling you're having, whatever that feeling is, will not last forever.
51:06
SPEAKER_00: So if you're on stage and you forget that dance and everything in your world is crumbling and you're like, this is the end.
51:13
SPEAKER_00: I am never gonna live this down.
51:15
SPEAKER_00: I'm so embarrassed.
51:16
SPEAKER_00: I cannot ever face anyone again.
51:19
SPEAKER_00: Yes, you can.
51:20
SPEAKER_00: The world is not ending.
51:21
SPEAKER_00: This is one moment in time.
51:22
SPEAKER_00: And like Caleb said, if if if if if there's no way possible that you can just do a step touch to the beat for 18 counts of eight until you figure out, oh, here we are at the chausset.
51:32
SPEAKER_00: That's fine.
51:33
SPEAKER_00: Like if you can do that, please do that.
51:34
SPEAKER_00: If you can't do that, go away.
51:36
SPEAKER_00: Collect yourself, remind yourself that it's not the end of the world because feelings do not last forever.
51:41
SPEAKER_00: And that's just really important, I think, for young people to understand because that took a long time for adult Leslie to understand.
51:48
SPEAKER_00: So great advice.
51:50
SPEAKER_01: Oh, it's a struggle.
51:51
SPEAKER_01: I feel like that's something important too.
51:52
SPEAKER_01: Mental health is it's I think of like anxiety, depression, or anything, kind of like waves, you know, it comes in waves and it's it's a spectrum.
52:00
SPEAKER_01: It's it's maybe always there, like anxiety, for instance.
52:03
SPEAKER_01: It's just how you interpret it and what you do with it.
52:05
SPEAKER_01: So that's a good point.
52:07
SPEAKER_06: Totally.
52:08
SPEAKER_06: Yeah.
52:09
SPEAKER_06: I'm really loving where this discussion went and all of our perspectives.
52:14
SPEAKER_06: I know it's really, really helpful.
52:16
SPEAKER_06: Unique.
52:16
SPEAKER_06: Leslie, are you feeling good?
52:18
SPEAKER_06: Do we have any final questions or are we ready to wrap it up?
52:23
SPEAKER_00: I think we can wrap it up because I think we've covered really everything and then some.
52:27
SPEAKER_00: I I love, like you said, I love that we kind of took a little turn towards, you know, less necessarily stage fright, but more just like sort of the general anxiety of of performing and performance because it's that's real and that all it kind of all lumps into the same, you know, fear that we all have is is really probably am I good enough?
52:45
SPEAKER_00: Is this good enough?
52:47
SPEAKER_00: You know, do I do I deserve to be here?
52:51
SPEAKER_00: You do, uh you do, yes, core beliefs, exactly.
52:55
SPEAKER_01: I hear that CBT in there.
52:57
SPEAKER_00: Oh, you know, you have been in therapy for a long time.
53:00
SPEAKER_00: I have learned.
53:01
SPEAKER_01: You go.
53:02
SPEAKER_00: Yes.
53:02
SPEAKER_00: But like I but I think again, that's that's something as dancers, like we are always scrutinizing ourselves.
53:07
SPEAKER_00: We live in front of the mirror, and you know, we're we're not only seeking acceptance from our teachers and our parents, but ourselves.
53:14
SPEAKER_00: And, you know, of course, stage fright is coming into play if we're if we're already staring at ourselves in the mirror 24-7, hoping our plie is you know proper and our releve is high enough.
53:24
SPEAKER_00: And, you know, no wonder we're afraid to get on stage sometimes, because we put so much pressure on ourselves.
53:29
SPEAKER_00: So yeah, like like we've been saying, you're you're not alone out there, dancers, if you've been feeling like that ever, because it's just a reality and how you get through it and how you come through it is is you know how you're gonna succeed in the world.
53:44
SPEAKER_06: Absolutely.
53:45
SPEAKER_01: May I add one point to that?
53:46
SPEAKER_01: Just for fun.
53:48
SPEAKER_01: Well, I think I I love Leslie, everything you just said, and I also think it's important for dancers to understand that what fires together wires together.
53:55
SPEAKER_01: So if you've created these negative thought patterns for so long, you know, implementing one positive self-talk intervention or one grounding technique or one, you know, whatever it is, it it might not provide you the relief you're looking for because we have to rewire what's been written for so long.
54:13
SPEAKER_01: Like you're saying, we we are in a profession where you're constantly not only critiquing yourself, but you're being critiqued by others, you're comparing yourself to others.
54:21
SPEAKER_01: And so that that wires your brain a specific way over a very long time.
54:25
SPEAKER_01: I'm s I s you know, I'm not dancing anymore, but I still have many of those same thoughts every single day.
54:31
SPEAKER_01: So I'm constantly trying to be aware of that and rewiring it.
54:34
SPEAKER_01: And so it's just it takes practice, it takes practice and it all takes time.
54:37
SPEAKER_06: It is interesting now that you say it in that perspective of like how we truly are getting critiqued all the time.
54:44
SPEAKER_06: Like that is that is and then I start thinking about like, wait, hold on.
54:49
SPEAKER_06: So like there's not a lot of other like there are jobs that you get feedback and you get, you know, you know, your boss has to tell you something and it's it's negative, but like nowhere near as much as we do as dancers and performers.
55:04
SPEAKER_06: Like, I didn't even really think of that.
55:06
SPEAKER_06: Our entire career and life, even in training as children, is getting corrections and getting critiqued and getting analyzed.
55:15
SPEAKER_02: Wow.
55:16
SPEAKER_02: Well, I think it's a balance of do you live for the applause?
55:19
SPEAKER_02: Is the applause enough for it you to like the balance of it?
55:23
SPEAKER_06: Like, yeah, exactly.
55:24
SPEAKER_06: That's it.
55:25
SPEAKER_02: Like, yeah.
55:26
SPEAKER_06: Right.
55:26
SPEAKER_02: Oh my gosh.
55:27
SPEAKER_02: That's the praise.
55:28
SPEAKER_06: Woo!
55:29
SPEAKER_02: That's that's another topic.
55:31
SPEAKER_02: Wow.
55:31
SPEAKER_02: Like, I don't know.
55:32
SPEAKER_02: We we can't get like no wow, my bad, my bad, my bad, yo, my bad.
55:37
SPEAKER_06: Well, let's let's spin this around and end on a different note with some final thoughts uh from our fabulous guests who joined us.
55:46
SPEAKER_06: Thank you, Glenn.
55:47
SPEAKER_06: Thank you, Caleb, for being here on this chat.
55:49
SPEAKER_06: It was awesome to have you.
55:50
SPEAKER_06: And what a what a powerful discussion, what an eye-opening discussion for me, and I'm sure all of our listeners have hopefully enjoyed this.
55:58
SPEAKER_06: I really love where this uh chat went.
56:01
SPEAKER_06: And if you we always have our guests lead us out with just, you know, a final final little bit of advice, encouragement.
56:07
SPEAKER_06: If you want to talk to dancers, you want to talk to teachers, parents, whoever you want to speak to when it comes to stage fright, our topic for today.
56:15
SPEAKER_01: Gosh, I I think the most important thing I would say, and this would be to dancers, is enjoy it because, and I know that's really cliche, but enjoy it because it doesn't last forever, and what you think is important now probably won't be what you think is important in 10 to 15 years.
56:33
SPEAKER_01: So enjoy it to the best of your ability.
56:35
SPEAKER_01: And if I was speaking from my therapist's perspective, I would say start to wire in some of those positive things now because you'll thank yourself for that later.
56:44
SPEAKER_02: Mm-hmm.
56:45
SPEAKER_02: I think for teachers to help students uh learn and to get that muscle memory, I always try and lead with a storyline.
56:54
SPEAKER_02: Find that character from A, B, and C so they know where they're heading.
56:59
SPEAKER_02: So there's like benchmarks along the way of their dancing.
57:02
SPEAKER_02: So, like, I can't, I can't remember what's next.
57:04
SPEAKER_02: Oh, I'm doing this in this dance, so I know I have to get to that emotion.
57:08
SPEAKER_02: And if you kind of lead with a character and that storyline all the way through, that'll help you remember, and that helps with part of the stage fright of forgetting on stage, I think.
57:20
SPEAKER_06: We hope you enjoyed our throwback episode from season four, episode 128, battling stage fright as a performer.
57:26
SPEAKER_06: Special shout out to our guests, Caleb and Glenn, for joining us on this chat.
57:31
SPEAKER_06: Don't forget to follow them on Instagram.
57:33
SPEAKER_06: You can find Caleb at Caleb Dicky and Glenn at Glenn Hewlett.
57:39
SPEAKER_00: Don't forget to follow Making the Impact on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Amazon Podcasts, and pretty much everywhere you listen to podcasts.
57:45
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57:51
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58:00
SPEAKER_00: Coming up on season seven of Making the Impact, we've got a Leaps and Jumps crash course.
58:05
SPEAKER_06: Stay tuned for a brand new episode launching next week.