Latest / A Hamster With a Blunt Penknife - a Doctor Who Commentary podcast / Talks to Si Hart & Frazer Gregory about our choice of An Unearthly Child (3/4)

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Talks to Si Hart & Frazer Gregory about our choice of An Unearthly Child (3/4) · A Hamster With a Blunt Penknife - a Doctor Who Commentary podcast

• 0:23
  None hamster with a blump pen knife
• 0:35
  for doing quicker, quicker. Quicker.
• 0:40
  Welcome back. To hamster with blood.
• 0:43
  Pen Knife The Doctor Who Commentaries Podcast I am free
• 0:50
  Tsar Leader of this drive or. Has given me Cyborg.
• 0:59
  You say hello. Cyborg.
• 1:01
  Never. Simon is given to leader of
• 1:07
  tribe. Next leader of tribe is Joe.
• 1:12
  Joe make fire come from his fingers.
• 1:15
  Joe makes smut come from his mouth.
• 1:18
  Say hello, Joe. I go by old mother these days.
• 1:25
  You will never make fire. Old mother and granddad got well
• 1:30
  together. Yeah, in fact, every time we
• 1:35
  post a picture. So they do think we're a couple.
• 1:38
  They do. It's true.
• 1:41
  Well done, Fraser. You've come a long you're a long
• 1:44
  way since the Space Museum, all right?
• 1:47
  So, gentlemen, what are we talking about today?
• 1:51
  Buyer. For for the benefit of the
• 1:54
  people who've just come in on episode 3, you're not listen
• 1:56
  bothered. Listen to the one or two.
• 1:57
  What are we talking about tonight?
• 1:59
  It's a bit of. Fire Very first adventure with
• 2:01
  Doctor Who. Right.
• 2:03
  So he has a question for you as both What is the very first
• 2:07
  adventure of Doctor Who called? Oh, let's not go down this
• 2:11
  rabbit hole, 100,000 BC and an. Earthly Child.
• 2:21
  It's definitely not Tribe of Gum.
• 2:24
  Why is it these first? Couple of stories go through
• 2:28
  this conundrum and then we don't have that trouble again after
• 2:30
  that. Because no one thought to give
• 2:34
  everything a proper title, because no one was thinking that
• 2:38
  anyone would actually care about this.
• 2:40
  Every episode has an has a title and that's enough.
• 2:45
  And like I said in the in the previous episode.
• 2:49
  The viewers at home don't know how long this this story is.
• 2:53
  It's not building the Radio Times as three or four.
• 2:56
  This is just an adventure in space and time, and that's all
• 3:00
  you know. It is just one continuous story
• 3:04
  as well, isn't it? Yeah, realistically speaking, I
• 3:06
  mean, yes, sets change, directors change after 472
• 3:12
  episodes. But you know, for intents and
• 3:14
  purposes, it's just one continuous tale.
• 3:17
  When does that stop? Because obviously each story
• 3:21
  leads into the next in one way or another.
• 3:24
  Is it the Romans? Yeah.
• 3:27
  What? No, because that does lead into
• 3:29
  the Romans. And then they're just and the.
• 3:31
  Romans leads into the web planet, so we don't won't
• 3:35
  continue a story until spearhead from space I.
• 3:41
  Don't think so. I mean, no, because Space
• 3:43
  Pirates doesn't lead into the War Games, does it?
• 3:45
  No and. The web planet doesn't lead into
• 3:49
  the crusade, no. And that might be the first or.
• 3:55
  What about Dalek invasion of Earth?
• 3:56
  Does that lead into the rescue? Yes, because they referenced
• 4:00
  Susan going, but there's not a lead in from one story to
• 4:04
  another is that ends on Susan. There you go, technically.
• 4:08
  Technically, the the first gap is possibly the end of the Keys
• 4:13
  of Mariners, where you get a. You get a reprise of the TARDIS
• 4:18
  leaving the the shawl at the start of the Aztecs, but there
• 4:27
  could be a longer gap there. Possibly.
• 4:31
  We say it's the end of Dalek Invasion of Earth and that's why
• 4:34
  he's having a nap in the console.
• 4:35
  Room in the rescue. It's like I need a fucking lie
• 4:38
  down after all that to me, he. Had two weeks off in Marinus.
• 4:43
  He he went to the city of Millennius, and had.
• 4:46
  Yeah, but you've you've just stuck a whole big Finnish box
• 4:50
  set in now, Simon. Oh no.
• 4:52
  I think Fraser, you don't know what you've done there.
• 4:54
  We we've popped about. 15 Big Finish blocks into existence.
• 4:58
  Of all those gaps. And missing adventures.
• 5:01
  And yeah, and past Doctor adventures.
• 5:03
  They're all set. Can't stop.
• 5:05
  It'll be the keys of Mariners within those gaps.
• 5:08
  Can we? It'll be the locks of Mariners,
• 5:14
  the mobile phones of Mariners. Those will be in there.
• 5:18
  Oh, the shoes of Marinus. I don't know.
• 5:20
  I'll. Buy them all, baby.
• 5:22
  Every single one. Yeah, and if you could buy one
• 5:25
  of them, you'd lend me yours. I just got that.
• 5:33
  Do you know what though? I've got a question for you
• 5:35
  then, because I feel like they knew they had something special
• 5:40
  here, or at least I think Verity Lambert knew and Sydney Newman
• 5:43
  knew they had something special. Wilson But this did have a
• 5:48
  finite life for the entire first season.
• 5:52
  I think they were just going to do the eventually like the 52
• 5:54
  weeks, wasn't it? And then that was it.
• 5:57
  Not even that to start with, wasn't it?
• 5:58
  Was the first three stories. And then?
• 6:00
  Yeah, 13 episodes. But when that was decided, it
• 6:04
  was sort of going to be a year, wasn't it?
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  A year's worth of stories like So do you think any of them
• 6:10
  could have ever have conceived 60 years later, but people would
• 6:16
  still be watching this that they made at the time and examining
• 6:20
  it and celebrating it? No, no, I think the only the
• 6:26
  only person who knew that was Hartnell.
• 6:28
  He said that, didn't he? He did you know, Doctor Who was
• 6:33
  always on the verge of not coming back all the way through
• 6:38
  its its original run. And usually it's just down to
• 6:42
  what we can't think of anything else that's a bit better that
• 6:44
  can replace it. So we'll just do some more.
• 6:48
  And it it's just incredible really that it just went on and
• 6:53
  on and on and just became part, as Tom Baker says, part of our
• 6:58
  television. It just became this thing
• 7:00
  because. The beat usually just inertia on
• 7:04
  the part of the BBC that Oh well we've just yeah oh we've
• 7:08
  accidentally renewed William Hartnell's contract for a bit
• 7:10
  longer so I will make some more oh although it's not getting the
• 7:15
  ratings can't think we don't like what Barry Letts has come
• 7:19
  up for to replace this so we're trying to find Oh no oh perk was
• 7:22
  quite popular OK we'll we'll carry on for a bit And until
• 7:27
  1985 it was just. It was just there.
• 7:32
  When Michael Gray cancels the show and then doesn't realise
• 7:34
  that it wasn't actually cancelled.
• 7:36
  Yeah, exactly. What's the interview on the box?
• 7:40
  Oh, it's glorious, he goes. He goes, yeah, I think I gave
• 7:45
  Sylvester McCoy one season. Didn't he didn't like that he
• 7:47
  went? No, it was 3 and he went, oh, I
• 7:49
  thought we cancelled it after one.
• 7:54
  That's how much they weren't paying attention.
• 7:57
  And this is what happens. And eventually it just stops
• 8:01
  because someone actually says, do you know what, we're just not
• 8:04
  quietly not going to make any more?
• 8:05
  But even when that happened in a, you know, then that enormous
• 8:10
  engine of stories having started in the wilderness years, Big
• 8:13
  Finish, the new adventures, the BBC books, the comic strips, you
• 8:18
  know, BBZ real time, it was just relentless.
• 8:22
  Suddenly the fans had control of the show and had all this
• 8:28
  dangerous stories that, yeah, well, it is dangerous, but we
• 8:31
  were lucky that it actually was this huge outpouring of
• 8:35
  creativity that the show inspires and I don't think there
• 8:39
  is any other show that has that level of.
• 8:44
  Creativity off the back of it, I think.
• 8:46
  Power Trek. Is probably the closest, but
• 8:50
  it's not. It's not like Doctor Who.
• 8:53
  It's not like the wilderness is not I, you know, I think there's
• 8:56
  more stories to come out of that period than you get either side
• 9:00
  of what was on the TVA. Lot of a lot of shows sort of
• 9:03
  have comic strips and things like that that continue the
• 9:05
  story after they've ended and things like that, don't they?
• 9:07
  But I mean, but it just goes to show then, doesn't it, with all
• 9:10
  of this and then the new series coming back and then that going
• 9:12
  on and on is that this premise that they created in this story
• 9:16
  that we're watching right now, it had some legs, gentlemen.
• 9:20
  It well it did and and just the the whole genesis of how they
• 9:27
  got to make this is just just incredible.
• 9:30
  I'm reading the book that came out earlier this year, Pool to
• 9:34
  open at the moment, and it's just amazing that it ever made
• 9:39
  it to the screen in any kind of. Shape or form, To be honest,
• 9:44
  it's all done by committee and people arguing, and it's shaped
• 9:49
  by so many people. It's yeah.
• 9:53
  I'll plug two things if you want to sort of learn about the
• 9:56
  genesis of Doctor Who. One is Toby Haydock's too much
• 9:59
  information on the first four episodes which actually details
• 10:03
  the memos that were going back and forth with actors saying the
• 10:06
  lines and things. And it is remarkably and you're
• 10:09
  right. It's bloody chaotic.
• 10:10
  The fact is this good is a miracle.
• 10:13
  The other one is Margatis's Adventures in Space and Time,
• 10:16
  and I know some of that is made for TV and it had to have a
• 10:20
  narrative. So they nipped and touched what
• 10:23
  happened a little bit, but essentially what happened is
• 10:27
  there and the struggle and the remount and yeah, everything.
• 10:32
  And the origins documentary on the Edge of Destruction DVD puts
• 10:38
  it very clearly and has a good timeline of how this show came
• 10:42
  to be. I mean, we are pretty obsessed
• 10:44
  in examining this, aren't we? But that's only because it has
• 10:48
  gone on to influence our lives in such incredible ways.
• 10:53
  And again, no other show gets that.
• 10:57
  Not not to the level we get it. And there are shows that we
• 11:01
  would all love to know as much as we know about Doctor Who,
• 11:06
  that we we just never will Doctor Who during the Moffett
• 11:09
  and Chipnut Eras. I'm desperate to know what
• 11:11
  happened behind the scenes there.
• 11:13
  One day. But in the meantime, should we
• 11:17
  watch Episode 3 of an Unhealthy Child?
• 11:19
  Yes. Yes.
• 11:20
  And what's it called again? Is it Fire Maker?
• 11:23
  Forest of Fear. Oh, that sounds like a tear and
• 11:26
  sticks chapter. It does, doesn't it?
• 11:28
  Was it in the book they're? Going to escape to danger.
• 11:34
  Just before we do that same commute.
• 11:36
  Confirm that you have got Foster Fear ready to play.
• 11:39
  Play Amigo again. I believe so.
• 11:43
  Awesome. Have you noticed this right So
• 11:46
  we make one mistake. And he never you and I never
• 11:49
  gives. Us.
• 11:49
  I know. Oh.
• 11:51
  Yeah, someone mentioned the title of this.
• 11:56
  This story's part of the day not yet has that.
• 11:59
  Come up yet? I've also compiled a list of you
• 12:03
  guys. Never mentioned that, do you?
• 12:04
  I've. Compiled a list of 20 more
• 12:06
  stories where children and play guest roles, which are some
• 12:10
  detail at the end of this. Both of them are from the Steven
• 12:15
  Moffett era, if I'm honest. Welcome to a self indulgence.
• 12:22
  What are you talking about? That's all of them.
• 12:23
  That's. All of.
• 12:26
  Them somebody out. Of in please.
• 12:29
  OK. 54321 Let's go I. Love you guys.
• 12:43
  Here we go. Did we talk about the music?
• 12:46
  We did talk about the titles. That there.
• 12:49
  Weird music. I'm It's one of my my big other
• 12:55
  passions. Off the back of Doctor Who is
• 12:57
  the Radiophonic Workshop and. It's amazing.
• 13:04
  There is a there were more than a few years ago, there was a
• 13:08
  retrospective of music from the Radiophonic workshop came out
• 13:12
  and so you get stuff from before Doctor Who on there.
• 13:16
  And then suddenly, sort of halfway through the first CD,
• 13:21
  the the Doctor Who theme kicks in and it's just like nothing
• 13:25
  that they've done before and. It is an out stat.
• 13:30
  We take it for granted again because we've heard it so many
• 13:33
  times, but there is nothing quite like that before this.
• 13:37
  It's it's, it's a miracle. Delia Derbyshire and Dick Mills
• 13:42
  did such a brilliant job on making this out of tape loops of
• 13:46
  sounds that they've recorded and reconstructed and played
• 13:50
  backwards and it's not played on any conventional instrument at
• 13:55
  all. And so it doesn't sound like any
• 13:59
  instrument because it's not made.
• 14:01
  On any instrument. No.
• 14:03
  And even now, to this day, there is nearly every theme, sort of
• 14:09
  in the modern era has used elements of the original theme
• 14:16
  in their arrangements because it's it's the sound of Doctor
• 14:22
  Who. Excuse me, what am I up to on
• 14:25
  the screen here? I've got old Woman with a knife.
• 14:31
  Yeah, that's right. That's what I am.
• 14:33
  Old woman. No, I'm old Mother.
• 14:34
  Yeah. If I was ever going to do sort
• 14:37
  of drag Doctor Who, I think I'd go as Old Mother.
• 14:40
  It'd be quite easy to do a dirty wig.
• 14:44
  Did you notice it? The camera panned over and all
• 14:46
  sleeping. All the actors.
• 14:48
  Yeah, we're sort of sleeping together on that dirty old
• 14:50
  floor. And we've got this shot through
• 14:54
  into The Cave. Boris Hussein is brilliant,
• 14:58
  absolutely brilliant, really good.
• 15:00
  He's got such a what did he go on and do after this?
• 15:02
  Anyone know? Oh, he did lots of lots of
• 15:04
  prestigious TV. So he got on to the the big sort
• 15:09
  of 80s miniseries that were were the big high budget things that
• 15:14
  people were doing that were adaptations of the big novels
• 15:17
  and and stuff of the 80s. And yeah, that's where he sort
• 15:20
  of ended up. But he did lots of prestigious
• 15:22
  stuff for the BBC after this. And I realized this is probably
• 15:28
  just a bunch of Halloween skeletons that they put in this
• 15:30
  set, right? And the skulls.
• 15:32
  But because they've sold the environment so well to this
• 15:37
  point, it just feels like such a a dangerous and claustrophobic
• 15:42
  environment. I feel like they're they're
• 15:46
  they're they could be killed in this.
• 15:48
  And I don't feel that way often when I'm watching Doctor Who.
• 15:53
  No. And we just had that line there
• 15:54
  where the doctor says we've got to free you, Ian, first because
• 15:57
  you're the strongest and you might have to defend us.
• 16:00
  That isn't that great line. Yeah, if she comes with her
• 16:05
  knife, look. And we get one of the greatest
• 16:09
  lines in in early Doctor Who, I think in this episode where
• 16:13
  where he turns around and says fear makes companions of us all,
• 16:16
  Miss Wright. And that's the first sort of
• 16:19
  inkling of them coming together and realising they need to be
• 16:22
  together. Such a wonderful line.
• 16:26
  I wonder where he got that from. It's it's so simple, but it's it
• 16:30
  absolutely sums up what this is about.
• 16:34
  I was being facetious. I was talking about listen.
• 16:36
  Oh, he got it from Clara Oswald. Of course he did.
• 16:47
  Now is this it now? Is this it where they're
• 16:48
  talking? Yeah.
• 16:49
  This is the first sort of time they're really saying, like,
• 16:52
  we've got to help each other out now, Yes.
• 16:55
  You're trying to help me, Yeah, Via.
• 16:57
  It makes opinions of us all. I never once thought you were
• 17:01
  afraid. But he's he's taking control
• 17:05
  now. Yeah.
• 17:07
  So he's he's saying right. So we need to free Ian,
• 17:11
  concentrate on that. Of course Susan's doing that.
• 17:13
  So Barbara, why that's happening you need to now be remembered
• 17:17
  the way back to the TARDIS, you know so he's he's put himself in
• 17:21
  this sort of leadership role. When reads again you know he's
• 17:25
  got no right to be in this role. He's done nothing to kind of
• 17:28
  deserve it as of yet, other than be Susan's granddad.
• 17:32
  But he's incisive, isn't he? He's smart.
• 17:34
  He knows the best role for everybody to get them back.
• 17:39
  It's a brilliant mind. But against those, Ian, Ian
• 17:43
  Smart as well, that's that's the thing there's.
• 17:47
  They're all smart in different ways, that's the brilliant
• 17:49
  thing, which is why they work so well as a team.
• 17:53
  I don't know if this is by design or by accident, but how
• 17:57
  the first three stories play out with them obviously meeting here
• 18:02
  and and being forced into a perilous situation where they
• 18:05
  have to work together to get back to the TARDIS.
• 18:08
  Then the dialects where the Doctor does say foolish and puts
• 18:11
  them all in danger and is accused of that.
• 18:13
  And then they have to help out the files.
• 18:15
  And then edge of destruction where they're all in the TARDIS
• 18:19
  and it's a tense situation and they all turn on each other to
• 18:23
  the point where you think, OK, this is over.
• 18:25
  Now when Barbara says, you know, you should get on your hands and
• 18:28
  knees and and beggars, you know, then you get Marco Polo.
• 18:34
  And that's where they are basically friends.
• 18:37
  But it plays out in steps and it's really, really well done.
• 18:41
  I don't know if it's by design, but it feels like it is.
• 18:44
  I don't know if it's by design, but you can you can see that you
• 18:48
  know where that initial, you know, 13 episode production
• 18:52
  block comes to that point at the end of.
• 18:55
  You know, because it's a complete story.
• 18:57
  Yeah, yeah. And then obviously like for
• 19:00
  Marco, Paulo, you think, well actually you know we've been
• 19:03
  renewed or whatever you know we've got.
• 19:05
  More to make. So what we're going to do in
• 19:09
  that stories, you know, can we sustain, you know, having it
• 19:14
  sort of like the Doctor being the antagonist or do we need to
• 19:18
  make them a bit more friendly So you know, you you then, you
• 19:24
  know, pivot the relationship a little bit and you know get to
• 19:29
  the point of like the Sensorites where they are or chill me and
• 19:31
  they're like, oh, you know, it all began as a.
• 19:35
  You know? And they're not.
• 19:38
  Yeah. Bitch, you kidnapped us.
• 19:40
  Take us home. You can't.
• 19:42
  And they're Ian and Barbara are fully signed up for the
• 19:46
  adventure at that Avenger. And so.
• 19:48
  Funny. It's like someone's got a copy
• 19:50
  of the program guide. They go, Oh yeah, do you
• 19:52
  remember the Aztecs? And then this is we've.
• 19:56
  Had quite a lovely series, haven't we?
• 19:59
  Let's all raise our. Champagne glasses, We've been an
• 20:02
  incredible success. That's what makes our bit of
• 20:05
  Reign of Terror so funny. They're not Reign of Terror
• 20:07
  sensorized, where he suddenly goes, right, that's it, You're
• 20:10
  getting off the ship about enough of all of you.
• 20:16
  It's great. It's, it's these dynamics
• 20:19
  between these four. I don't think it's done quite as
• 20:24
  skilfully for a long time again. No, but again, they've got so
• 20:32
  much time to develop. These relationships, and they've
• 20:37
  got 52 episodes, you know, that's that's that that's more
• 20:41
  than some companions have in total.
• 20:43
  Far more than some companions have in total.
• 20:46
  You know you. Just stop and think about that a
• 20:48
  second. Imagine an entire year where
• 20:50
  Doctor Who's on every week. Yeah.
• 20:52
  Oh, heaven. Well, welcome to my life.
• 21:00
  Oh wait, that's my life. It's every fucking day with
• 21:05
  this. Podcast.
• 21:09
  Oh dear. I've.
• 21:12
  Got to stop swearing you know, Jason Miller got told off
• 21:14
  recently Buzz he was swearing on his podcast.
• 21:19
  It's every 5 minutes on this. We'll put a content warning at
• 21:24
  the start of the next episode Will be fine here.
• 21:26
  We go dashing through the trees. It's sweaty.
• 21:29
  We're a bit dirty. The.
• 21:32
  K People in Hot pursuit. Yeah.
• 21:37
  And this, I think, is where it sort of the really visceral
• 21:42
  nature of this story sort of really kicks in for our crew,
• 21:45
  yeah, at this point. But because they're tired,
• 21:48
  they're really ratty with each other, aren't they?
• 21:50
  And. Which is realistic and you
• 21:52
  again, you don't get that. In many other Doctor Who
• 21:57
  stories, where you think you've been through all of this, but
• 22:00
  you're still still going and now.
• 22:03
  This is interesting coming from you because I know you like it.
• 22:07
  When Doctor Who and his friends get on well with each other, I
• 22:10
  do get adventures. But there's just something about
• 22:13
  this that is just really, really brilliant.
• 22:17
  I don't think it's sustainable for the whole series because it
• 22:20
  would just be so wearing. No, I mean, look at Jacqueline
• 22:24
  Hill here. She is absolutely terrified and
• 22:27
  her acting is so brilliant that it's absolutely sold.
• 22:32
  And it's like you say about Nicola Bryant being too good at
• 22:35
  being scared when we did did The Twin Dilemma, you know that it
• 22:40
  just sells it and so. I've got to say, you could
• 22:43
  absolutely tell the directorial choices of Warren Hussein and
• 22:47
  Christopher Barry, or possibly Richard Martin, because we had a
• 22:50
  sequence there where they were running for a jungle, right?
• 22:53
  And they were sort of shooting it through the trees and it all
• 22:55
  looked very exciting. And then in the Daleks you've
• 22:58
  got Caroline forward running on the spot with a load of leaves
• 23:01
  being whipped in her face. Do you remember that?
• 23:04
  Yeah. I have always said that in the
• 23:07
  60s it does come down to the skill of the director a lot of
• 23:09
  the time. Oh, she is desperate, isn't she?
• 23:13
  Yeah, it's the. Trauma of the situation.
• 23:15
  It's not necessarily just them being tired, it's just the whole
• 23:19
  emotional trauma. You know, they've got out of The
• 23:21
  Cave of schools and they can't remember the way back to the
• 23:24
  TARDIS. And yeah, the the we've had a
• 23:27
  pivot because Ian's back in charge now.
• 23:28
  He's like whipping the Doctor along and he's, you know, trying
• 23:32
  to keep Barbara focused and whatnot.
• 23:33
  So it's Ian's very much the leader now.
• 23:35
  You'd make fire. But you know, just the whole
• 23:39
  thing with Barbara Barbara's very susaned at the minute.
• 23:42
  You know she's very, oh and Whalen and and but you know she
• 23:47
  does it in a in a much better way than Caroline Ford does
• 23:52
  because it's it's a lot more sophisticated and it's like an
• 23:58
  adult breaking down rather than yeah.
• 24:00
  You know and. There's something.
• 24:02
  Teeny something. Hysterics, yeah.
• 24:04
  There is something. Worse, particularly as a child,
• 24:07
  of seeing an adult breakdown. Yeah, like that than seeing a
• 24:11
  child breakdown. Me as a kid, it was.
• 24:14
  I've said it so many times. It's seeing adults anxious that
• 24:19
  really scared me. And the the power dynamics
• 24:23
  between the doctor and Ian there, where he goes, aren't you
• 24:25
  just a stupid? And he goes, and you're a
• 24:27
  stubborn old man, you know, and they're really going at each
• 24:31
  other. But it.
• 24:32
  Feels and this has got me angry and.
• 24:36
  It's the same as what could happen anytime between Cal and
• 24:41
  Tsar, because they're both vying to be leader of the Tribe I.
• 24:46
  Just don't understand. Anyone who appreciates drama can
• 24:51
  write off these episodes. I don't get it.
• 24:54
  I see it all the time that that. Oh yeah, it's great first
• 24:57
  episode, but the next three are quite quite tedious and dull
• 25:01
  and. Yeah, I just skip on to the
• 25:03
  Daleks. But you're missing something.
• 25:06
  You're missing the coming together of this team.
• 25:09
  You're missing so much more. Barbara here, she falls on the
• 25:13
  yeah, he got whatever it is and she.
• 25:16
  Just that scream is just, I mean.
• 25:18
  I think that that would horrify me.
• 25:20
  It happened to me, yeah. I mean, look at her.
• 25:25
  She is in trauma. She's.
• 25:27
  Broken, yeah. It's like the final.
• 25:32
  Score. I wonder.
• 25:33
  If they're just saying this might be the best episode of the
• 25:35
  four, you know, in terms of of of drama.
• 25:39
  Yeah, yeah, because the first isn't about drama, it's about
• 25:43
  the mystery. Yeah, the 2nd is the set up to
• 25:47
  get us to this. This is a sort.
• 25:49
  Of desperation. Resolution Yeah, this is Are our
• 25:54
  heroes actually going to make make it out of here alive?
• 25:59
  And it's like we've said, all right, Chris, we don't know how
• 26:01
  long this is going to go on for. This could just be 4 episodes.
• 26:04
  One of them could die, yeah. No rules are set.
• 26:08
  No. It's almost a shame when it is,
• 26:11
  isn't it? Yeah, because you're taking
• 26:14
  away. What this sort of shows is that
• 26:17
  anything could happen to this crew and it's difficult and it's
• 26:22
  hard and later on it's a lot of running around and.
• 26:28
  There's a lot of danger, but not quite the same danger as this,
• 26:33
  that's. Great.
• 26:34
  You did the point of view shot of the animal attacking cow and
• 26:38
  then you cut her screaming. Yeah, and it's again, it's a
• 26:43
  fantastic stream. Isn't that a leafier Charlton?
• 26:45
  Brilliant. And you can see why they brought
• 26:48
  her back next year. An old place.
• 26:51
  Don't be going on about Edith. Oh.
• 26:52
  No, not around this house. Oh.
• 26:56
  Benny, do you know what? I go to bed sometimes.
• 26:58
  He's got an Edith T-shirt. She's staring at me in the bed.
• 27:03
  Sitting downstairs now feeling oh.
• 27:04
  Go to a bed with look at all that blood on his chest.
• 27:08
  Oh, it's fine. It's not his.
• 27:11
  No, but at this point you don't know that.
• 27:14
  You you have to be told that. And.
• 27:19
  And and these seeds are are great because they don't
• 27:22
  understand the concept of being a friend.
• 27:27
  And why would someone, why would someone want to help us?
• 27:32
  Because they're all constantly in conflict.
• 27:36
  She's all right with Ian doing it, but when one of the girls
• 27:38
  tries to help. She gets pissy then she.
• 27:41
  Oh, it's just like nothing 's changed.
• 27:44
  Yeah, being in town on a Friday night, isn't it?
• 27:48
  Oh, it's worse with the gays, you know.
• 27:51
  You go sniffing near a guy that someone else likes, you're in
• 27:54
  trouble. Oh dear.
• 27:57
  But that whole, those wonderful scenes of them describing how
• 28:03
  they can work together, it's just like a new concept for
• 28:08
  these people. Maybe they just.
• 28:11
  History. He might have done, they said.
• 28:14
  Most of the bloods the animal see some of it is.
• 28:17
  Well, a little bit. Just a scratch.
• 28:20
  Oh. God, this is, Yeah.
• 28:22
  I always do these episodes with these phony moral conundrums.
• 28:26
  We did see Steph, remember. We talked about it and now we've
• 28:29
  got the doctor about to pick up this rock and brain cow so they
• 28:32
  can escape. Any thoughts?
• 28:37
  That's a good thing he doesn't. I would have done it, sorry.
• 28:47
  Again, we're so used to the Doctor being the moral centre of
• 28:51
  the show that this is. It's kind of unsettling to have
• 28:56
  the Doctor Who is just out to make sure he survives.
• 29:01
  And I I really like that. I really like that difference.
• 29:04
  And then it takes a long time for him to to have his his edges
• 29:08
  smooth down and but it. It is the same doctor that
• 29:11
  cyanide did so long in the brain of Morbius.
• 29:14
  It's the same doctor that Cyanide did.
• 29:17
  Shock eye in the two. Doctors.
• 29:21
  Like he he will go to extremes. They don't forget it entirely.
• 29:25
  But I think what we've seen with this scene is is another pivot.
• 29:30
  So we've went from them being broken and traumatized and kind
• 29:36
  of at the wit's end. And then all of a sudden they've
• 29:39
  got some moral conundrum that they need to work on and they
• 29:47
  pick the side of, you know, saving Zar, and that really kind
• 29:54
  of galvanizes them. You know this this is like the
• 29:58
  turning point where the stop being, you know, like say
• 30:04
  traumatized and it leads into the next episode.
• 30:06
  You know by the next episode they are now working more as a
• 30:10
  unit and they are more, you know, working on the problem of
• 30:14
  how do we, you know, get out of this.
• 30:18
  You know, we'll build fire. We've built fire.
• 30:20
  Now what do we do? Well, we'll have to trick them
• 30:22
  and we'll have to, you know, we have to.
• 30:26
  Teach them how to work together and and the rest of it.
• 30:28
  So I think this this bit here is that pivot.
• 30:30
  You know, up until Zar gets attacked they are just running
• 30:34
  away. But once that happens, something
• 30:37
  shifts. I do love the ambiguity of it
• 30:40
  though, where he picks up that rock right and then he is like,
• 30:44
  what are you doing? And he's like, oh, I was going
• 30:46
  to ask him to draw a map. And so it's never said.
• 30:50
  So take take from it what you will.
• 30:53
  And again, it's like when he murders someone with a spade in
• 30:57
  the Reign of Terror I. Love that bit skinny.
• 31:06
  She don't understand. She's like, why don't you kill?
• 31:09
  Yes, she doesn't understand friend friendliness and
• 31:13
  kindness. Well, that's some portions of
• 31:15
  Doctor Who fandom as well, isn't it?
• 31:18
  Not our corner. No.
• 31:24
  And it's trying to sort of get that cooperation between them
• 31:28
  when you've got someone who is naturally suspicious, who
• 31:31
  doesn't understand the concept. And that's that's really
• 31:35
  interesting. You know, going back to the
• 31:38
  behind the scenes again, I know they had to sort of talk William
• 31:42
  Hart around to doing this, but they sort of found a really
• 31:45
  enticing way of doing that. I think Russ William Russell was
• 31:48
  on board and I think Karen Ann Forbes was on board.
• 31:52
  When Verisel Herbert talks, it was Jacqueline Hill that she
• 31:55
  really wanted for this. Yeah, isn't it?
• 31:58
  Yeah, well, it's her friend so but.
• 32:01
  I think she said that she she brings some sort of dignity and
• 32:03
  and class as a production. And she does.
• 32:10
  She's still one of my favourites, Barbara.
• 32:13
  She's just brilliant, isn't she? Here he is picking up a rock.
• 32:18
  God. It's a very small rock, mind.
• 32:21
  It's probably do a bit of damage, but it's.
• 32:28
  Not much of A suggestion. He's going to do anything with a
• 32:30
  rock. There was the it's it's very
• 32:32
  subtle, yeah. Well, I think maybe they don't
• 32:36
  want to cross that line really this early.
• 32:38
  It's not like. He's like standing above with
• 32:40
  like like turtle. Very subtle.
• 32:44
  Yeah. Yeah.
• 32:48
  Oh, he's got lovely fires. Cow, isn't he?
• 32:52
  Oh, wait till episode 4 without fire.
• 32:55
  It's the closest to gay porn you're ever going to see in
• 32:57
  Doctor Who. Sorry, Fraser.
• 32:58
  And that's. Week 4 it's.
• 33:01
  All down here we know. Rachel loves the Key of Men part
• 33:04
  the best. No, I mean it's a brilliant
• 33:07
  sequence. I can't wait till we get to it.
• 33:10
  All those fabric. No, no, no, no.
• 33:12
  I mean in how it's directed, the cuts to all the reaction shots
• 33:16
  and things, the the way that. Like Douglas Canfield.
• 33:19
  Is he? Well, I'm not surprised.
• 33:22
  It's fabulous. Because he is the, the
• 33:27
  production assistant on this, so he is around.
• 33:31
  He's he's the person that they they call to when the doors
• 33:34
  aren't working in the in the original thing of the pilot
• 33:39
  where they say, oh, you can sort this out, can't you Douglas?
• 33:41
  That's Douglas Canfield who's there.
• 33:43
  So he's there, right from the start of the show.
• 33:45
  Fingerprints are on there right from the start, yeah.
• 33:48
  Absolutely the same as sort of in week.
• 33:51
  Week 5 We've got Michael Ferguson there holding the the
• 33:55
  penches of the Daleks. So.
• 33:58
  I am dead. You are.
• 34:01
  Oh, Oh well, you're never dead to us.
• 34:02
  You've got. Like a she's got like a line of
• 34:04
  blood running down from her mouth as well.
• 34:07
  It's just something a bit nasty about these episodes, isn't it?
• 34:10
  Yeah. And again, because the rules
• 34:12
  haven't been set and the BBC aren't paying much attention
• 34:15
  generally. And there's no questions about
• 34:17
  violence and and things like that.
• 34:19
  Yeah. And yeah, it's a really violent
• 34:21
  show, right? From from Week 2.
• 34:24
  You know, it's it. I don't want to leave at this
• 34:27
  point, but it's still a point where you can have something,
• 34:30
  you know, like an adventure serial, like the keys of
• 34:32
  Mariners with an enormous attempted rape sequence in the
• 34:36
  middle of it. You know, like the rules
• 34:38
  definitely haven't been set yet. I've forgotten the cliffhanger
• 34:44
  to this episode. We're nearly there.
• 34:47
  I'll be no surprise with them. Is it They almost get back to
• 34:50
  the TARDIS and then they're like, Oh yeah.
• 34:52
  Well, well, I know because I've watched the start of part 4.
• 34:58
  Oh no, they're all just there, aren't they?
• 34:59
  The Cavemen are all there in front of the TARDIS.
• 35:02
  They're all hiding, yeah. So you've got three very
• 35:07
  different cliffhangers there then, haven't you?
• 35:09
  The first one is like. Oh, oh.
• 35:14
  Oh. Oh, my word.
• 35:20
  Oh, they love those. Oh, he went out of focus.
• 35:23
  He did. He zoomed in.
• 35:26
  They do like those Cliff angers where you go, right?
• 35:28
  Remember the latoxol? Yeah, it's nice.
• 35:32
  And dramatic a good good close up.
• 35:34
  So what one was the mystery of what the hell was going on, the
• 35:37
  TARDIS taking up? Where are we?
• 35:39
  And the shadow. Two was this is what's going to
• 35:42
  happen to you? Both Broken Skulls and three is
• 35:46
  we almost made it. Yeah, I think they really knew
• 35:50
  how to do a cliffhanger back in the 60s.
• 35:52
  You know, one of my favourites is still.
• 35:56
  I wonder if they're going to cut it out of this colour version of
• 36:00
  the Daleks. It's the.
• 36:03
  Oh Hooray. Let's all go back to the TARDIS
• 36:05
  then. Oh shit.
• 36:06
  The fluid link. Yeah.
• 36:09
  We've got to go back. That was.
• 36:10
  That was always that was the break on the between the two
• 36:13
  videos as well, wasn't it? So it always felt like a really
• 36:16
  dramatic bit you. Totally forget about that fluid
• 36:18
  link, don't you? It's so much wonderful.
• 36:21
  But the skip? The Daleks were back to the
• 36:23
  ship. Oh, bugger bugger.
• 36:28
  Don't worry, we could jump over a ravine for one episode.
• 36:32
  Rope coming over, Rope coming over.
• 36:38
  That's got to make the cut. Yeah, OK.
• 36:43
  On you then I'll. Cut it there.