Latest / Crime Stories with Nancy Grace / 4 University of Idaho Students Slaughtered in Off-Campus Home

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4 University of Idaho Students Slaughtered in Off-Campus Home · Crime Stories with Nancy Grace

0:05
Speaker 1: In the last hours stunning and tragic news from University
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Speaker 1: of Idaho. Four young college students murdered. I'm Nancy Grace.
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Speaker 1: This is crime Stories. Thank you for being with us
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Speaker 1: here at Fox Nation and Series X one eleven. We
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Speaker 1: don't know much right now, but what we do know
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Speaker 1: four young students to age twenty two, age twenty one
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Speaker 1: in an off campus home home where five girls lived together.
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Speaker 1: Three story homes, six bedrooms, three baths early Sunday morning.
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Speaker 1: We believe four students slaughtered. Thank you for being with
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Speaker 1: us here at Fox Nay in series Sex and one eleven.
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Speaker 1: First of all, take a listen to this this hour,
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Speaker 1: we are tracking breaking news. Just a moment ago, Moscow
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Speaker 1: police confirmed four people were found dead in a home
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Speaker 1: just steps away from the University of Idaho campus. Right now,
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Speaker 1: we're continuing to work to get more details tonight. We
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Speaker 1: know that students were ordered to shelter in place for
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Speaker 1: a time this afternoon because of the scenes proximity to campus.
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Speaker 1: Neighbors say they began noticing police cars flood the area
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Speaker 1: around twelve pm today. Moscow police say they responded to
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Speaker 1: a call here on King Road for an unconscious individual
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Speaker 1: upon further investigation, officials found four people dead. While police
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Speaker 1: investigated the scene, the University of Idaho enacted a shelter
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Speaker 1: in place alert as university officials reported a homicide near campus.
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Speaker 1: Neighbors say most people living in this area are a
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Speaker 1: part of u of E Greek life or our students,
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Speaker 1: but we do not know the identities of those involved
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Speaker 1: or who lives at the residence. Officials are investigating. You're
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Speaker 1: hearing our friends to k r E M with me
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Speaker 1: an all star panel to make sense of what we
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Speaker 1: know right now. But first straight out to special guests,
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Speaker 1: Ava Wayne House, reporter k h Q local News, Ava,
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Speaker 1: thank you for being with us. How were the four
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Speaker 1: students found? News came in that the police are responding
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Speaker 1: to a call of someone found unconscious. That's the call
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Speaker 1: that originally came in, and then they responded, and then
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Speaker 1: they found the four additional bodies, the four bodies of
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Speaker 1: these students inside the home. It was originally a call
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Speaker 1: not pertaining to four dead bodies, but that's what they
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Speaker 1: found when they entered the home. It was shocking news,
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Speaker 1: but here especially coming from just the most quiet town.
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Speaker 1: Joining me is David Allroy, attorney at law, joining us
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Speaker 1: from Idaho, former Attorney General in Idaho for lieutenant governor,
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Speaker 1: former prosecutor. You can find him at Leroy dot com. David,
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Speaker 1: thank you so much for being with us. This is
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Speaker 1: your neck of the Woods question to you. I'm trying
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Speaker 1: to determine for sure how the bodies were found. It's
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Speaker 1: my understanding that about noon on November thirteenth, that is
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Speaker 1: a Sunday noon, on Sunday noon ish, that a friend
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Speaker 1: of one of the girls went to the home and
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Speaker 1: found all four dead bodies. Is that how they were found.
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Speaker 1: There's no publicly released detail on the translation of police
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Speaker 1: report of an unconscious person and the discovery of the
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Speaker 1: four bodies, but obviously somebody determined if the unconscious person
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Speaker 1: was one of those bodies from merely opening the door
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Speaker 1: that something was wrong and reported extremely promptly. There's no
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Speaker 1: public clearly released details on that first discover real of
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Speaker 1: them unconscious person observed. Joining me also in addition to Ava,
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Speaker 1: Wayne House and David Leroy is Captain Taylor West, Captain
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Speaker 1: West Division Commander Investigations, Davis County Sheriff's Office in Farmington.
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Speaker 1: Captain West, thank you for being with us. You know
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Speaker 1: It's very important in every criminal investigation who finds the body.
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Speaker 1: In this case, four bodies of college students, four dad
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Speaker 1: college students. It's very important to determine who calls it in,
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Speaker 1: who finds them, who reports it. It's my understanding a
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Speaker 1: friend of one of the four deceased comes to the home,
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Speaker 1: finds the people there at first, possibly thinking someone was unconscious.
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Speaker 1: Maybe one of them still was, well, they're dead. Now,
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Speaker 1: that's interesting. Have you ever noticed, Captain West, so often
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Speaker 1: we find a wife dad, it's the husband that finds
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Speaker 1: the body. Yes, very often we look at, you know,
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Speaker 1: the person who finds the body or the person who
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Speaker 1: responds to the scene. It should be known to the
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Speaker 1: fact that the cultuman is an unconscious personal. That's probably
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Speaker 1: just a classification issue with the dispatch center. And anytime
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Speaker 1: we have a body or someone unconscious, they all come
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Speaker 1: in the same as a man or woman down, so
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Speaker 1: that they probably just coded it that way and said
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Speaker 1: they were unconscious. That doesn't mean necessarily that the victim
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Speaker 1: was still alive but unconscious when they arrived. To answer
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Speaker 1: your question more specifically, Nancy, yes, it seems like oftentimes
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Speaker 1: the person who discovers the body or the person who
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Speaker 1: makes that phone call. We don't know in this case
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Speaker 1: that phone call was made from the scene or if
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Speaker 1: it was made away from the scene, but yes, that
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Speaker 1: there would be a person of interest in my mind
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Speaker 1: for sure. I mean, for instance, to doctor Michelle Dupree,
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Speaker 1: forensic pathologists, medical examiner, detective, author of Homicide Investigation Field Guide,
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Speaker 1: Doctor Dupree, you're right there all the same practically of
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Speaker 1: the Alex Murdog double murder who called in the dead bodies,
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Speaker 1: Alex Murdog and now he's charged with murder. Do you
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Speaker 1: see my drift here? I certainly do. And as was
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Speaker 1: said before, you know that is always one of our
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Speaker 1: first people that we look at as a person of
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Speaker 1: interest is either the spouse or significant other and or
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Speaker 1: the person who finds the body or calls it in. Well,
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Speaker 1: unlike many statistics may indicate there seemingly it's no connection
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Speaker 1: to the person that comes to the home and finds
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Speaker 1: the dead bodies. Joe Scott Morgan joining me, Professor Forensics,
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Speaker 1: Jacksonville State University, author of Blood Beneath My Feet and Starve,
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Speaker 1: a Brandy hit series, Body Bags of Joseph Scott Morgan,
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Speaker 1: Joe Scott. In this case, I really don't see any
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Speaker 1: connection with the person that called it in. I really
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Speaker 1: do believe at this juncture anyway, they just went to
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Speaker 1: the home and make this gruesome discovery. Yeah. Yeah, And
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Speaker 1: you know, you think about it. This person probably occupies
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Speaker 1: the same space with them, was familiar with the location,
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Speaker 1: and was familiar enough to walk through the door. Maybe
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Speaker 1: they checked it initially to see if it was unlocked.
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Speaker 1: They didn't. They couldn't get anybody to come to the door.
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Speaker 1: And in the world that we live in now, Nancy,
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Speaker 1: if they're calling, certainly with four deceased individuals, you're not
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Speaker 1: going to get a response from a phone call. So
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Speaker 1: you know, was the door actually left unlocked at the
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Speaker 1: scene somebody? Yeah, it really doesn't it the door being
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Speaker 1: a lot to the scene, which we believe that it was.
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Speaker 1: But there's so much forensic evidence here. Guys. Take a
7:37
Speaker 1: listen to our friend Whitney Ward k r e M
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Speaker 1: breaking news out of Moscow, Idaho, the bodies of four
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Speaker 1: University of Idaho students discovered in a house just steps
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Speaker 1: away from campus. Those students were discovered just yesterday afternoon
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Speaker 1: in a neighborhood near Greek row on campus. Earlier today,
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Speaker 1: the university released the identities of the victims found in
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Speaker 1: that house, twenty year old Ethan Shapen from Conway, Washington,
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Speaker 1: twenty one year old Madison Mogan from Courtlane, twenty year
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Speaker 1: old Zanna Zernodle from Post Falls, and twenty one year
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Speaker 1: old Kaylee Gonzalez from Wrath from Idaho. Now names are
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Speaker 1: attached to that initial report of four dead college students.
8:19
Speaker 1: Just think about it. Time stories with Nancy Grace to
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Speaker 1: doctor Shawn Robertson joining us psychologists out of Edmund. You
8:41
Speaker 1: can find him at doctor Shawn Robertson dot com, dotor Robertson.
8:45
Speaker 1: My twins, John, David and Lucy have just started the
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Speaker 1: ninth grade, but for over a year they've been talking
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Speaker 1: about where they want to go to college, what university
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Speaker 1: or college they're interested in, what they want to study,
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Speaker 1: what they want to be, and we're planning for it.
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Speaker 1: I mean when they were first born, doctor Robertson, I
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Speaker 1: started a fund, a college fund when they were born,
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Speaker 1: planning and hoping and praying that one day they would
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Speaker 1: go on to college and beyond, and just thinking about
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Speaker 1: these four people, these four young people's family and I'm
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Speaker 1: thinking about that photo of them, doctor Robertson, that was
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Speaker 1: taken just a couple of hours before they were all
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Speaker 1: savagely murdered. I mean, doctor Robertson, I've looked at the
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Speaker 1: exterior of the home and from one angle you can
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Speaker 1: actually see blood pouring down from a crack in the foundation.
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Speaker 1: Blood is pouring. I haven't seen that since I prosecuted
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Speaker 1: a triple homicide out on a playground one Sunday night
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Speaker 1: and there was blood running down the gutter like water.
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Speaker 1: So you work your whole life, it feels like to
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Speaker 1: get your children to this point, and these parents had
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Speaker 1: done it. They could check the box. We got them
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Speaker 1: through preschool, we got through elementary, got them through mental,
10:23
Speaker 1: we got them through high school. And all the ups
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Speaker 1: and the downs, and the highs and the lows, the victories,
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Speaker 1: the defeats, and then they make it. And now this,
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Speaker 1: it's just to me overwhelming what these parents must be
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Speaker 1: going through, Doctor Robertson. Well, you certainly expect that your
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Speaker 1: children and be safe at college, especially in a smaller town.
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Speaker 1: Colleges are generally safe communities, and you know, that's a
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Speaker 1: pretty large number of victims to be killed all in
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Speaker 1: one place. Most crime victims, most murder victims, are more
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Speaker 1: often than not going to be people who are involved
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Speaker 1: in crime themselves. They're not going to be college students.
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Speaker 1: So something like that would certainly come. It's quite a shock,
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Speaker 1: and it's pretty unusual. Well, Nancy. One thing that makes
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Speaker 1: this all the more shocking and all the more traumatic
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Speaker 1: for both parents and students is that the University of
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Speaker 1: Idaho is a beautiful, classic red brick campus spread over
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Speaker 1: rolling hills in an agricultural area. It's got traditions dating
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Speaker 1: back to eighteen eighty nine. It's a medium sized campus,
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Speaker 1: about twelve thousand students in a very small town twenty
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Speaker 1: six thousand people. And that ratio of students and residents
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Speaker 1: makes it a very close knit community where everybody does
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Speaker 1: feel safe. And that's one of the reasons you go
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Speaker 1: to this very protected area for a college education. Who
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Speaker 1: am I hearing, David Lee roy or Captain West's Dave
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Speaker 1: le roy Man. You know, David, I was just thinking
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Speaker 1: when you were talking, where did you go to law school? David?
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Speaker 1: And to the law school into University Idaho about a
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Speaker 1: quarter of a mile from where this incident happened, and Nancy. Shockingly,
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Speaker 1: I was actually in that building, that residence about four
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Speaker 1: years ago when I was engaged in a political campaign
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Speaker 1: and on campus for homecoming events, and one of my clients,
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Speaker 1: I had a child who was in that building as
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Speaker 1: a resident renting the place for two years. He and
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Speaker 1: I went over there and said hello for about an
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Speaker 1: hour to the four students living there. Wow, okay, I'm
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Speaker 1: just drinking and everything you're saying it's reminding me. Well.
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Speaker 1: First of all, was thinking of the two places I
12:43
Speaker 1: went to law school. One was the Mercer University in Macon,
12:47
Speaker 1: which I loved. The other was NYU On University, obviously
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Speaker 1: in New York, for an LLM degree. I approached my
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Speaker 1: wife at Mercer very differently than I did at YU
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Speaker 1: because the Mercer is in the middle of Macon, Georgia,
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Speaker 1: and surrounding Macon, which has a hefty population now is rural,
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Speaker 1: and there is a feeling of safety and security in
13:13
Speaker 1: a low crime rate, as opposed to NYU. I mean,
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Speaker 1: taking the subway to class. You know, I was always
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Speaker 1: looking over my shoulder. You're right, this is almost an idyllic,
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Speaker 1: a bucolic setting. Now I'm very intrigued by the fact
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Speaker 1: that everybody on this panel jump in. David Leroy attorney out,
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Speaker 1: a Boise, high profile lawyer, former Idaho Attorney general, former
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Speaker 1: lieutenant governor, former prosecutor. It goes on and on, has
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Speaker 1: been in this home in the murder scene. I'm curious
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Speaker 1: and ava wenthouse. Please jump in if I'm wrong on
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Speaker 1: any of these facts. I think the young man Ethan
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Speaker 1: was found on the second floor, which but the fact
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Speaker 1: that they told us that makes me think the girls
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Speaker 1: were somewhere else, possibly on the third floor. This is
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Speaker 1: a three story home, to my understanding, what's on the
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Speaker 1: second floor? David, Well, it's been remodeled since I was there.
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Speaker 1: I believe it was a four bedroom residents when I
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Speaker 1: was there. It's been changed to now reportedly a six
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Speaker 1: bedroom residents, but after an entry in the front area
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Speaker 1: and perhaps one bedroom on the lower floors, it's all
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Speaker 1: bedrooms upstairs. So along with the appropriate time related about
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Speaker 1: you know another thing. It just got morgan. I keep
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Speaker 1: thinking about how four people were overpowered by one person?
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Speaker 1: What more do we know? Take a listen to Nicole
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Speaker 1: Hernandez KRM. It was the city of Moscow, Idaho that
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Speaker 1: sent us this information. Just a few minutes ago. They
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Speaker 1: said that they suspect that this homicide was done these
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Speaker 1: students that died by quote an a weapon such as
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Speaker 1: a knife, and they say they did not actually find
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Speaker 1: a weapon at the scene. They also have not arrested
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Speaker 1: any suspects yet and they are ruling the investigation a homicide.
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Speaker 1: As of this morning, the crime scene tape is still
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Speaker 1: up around the house. We saw one officer there this
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Speaker 1: morning as well, and a memorial has grown overnight for
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Speaker 1: those four students. This though, has left students in the
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Speaker 1: area Afreid. A lot of people left last night and
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Speaker 1: then we were like, I know, we were like the
15:27
Speaker 1: only like one of the only ones who actually stayed
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Speaker 1: here last night, mass exodus at the university. There people
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Speaker 1: leaving out of fear. Guys, this takes place in Moscow, Idaho,
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Speaker 1: there at the university. Joe Scott, are you hearing what
15:45
Speaker 1: I'm hearing? I think you are four people overpowered around
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Speaker 1: two to three am in the morning with an edged
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Speaker 1: weapon that means a knife in my mind, a serrated knife.
15:58
Speaker 1: How did he obviously this is a male attacker to
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Speaker 1: be able to overcome for other people asleep? Were they asleep?
16:09
Speaker 1: Were they in a supine position, lying in beds. And
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Speaker 1: Ethan was there staying with a girlfriend that night. Why
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Speaker 1: is he on the second floor and she apparently somewhere else?
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Speaker 1: Did they run? Were they sleeping separately? Ethan did not
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Speaker 1: live there, Isn't that right, Jackie. The girls lived there,
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Speaker 1: The three girls lived there along with two other girls.
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Speaker 1: Ethan was just visiting the girlfriend. So what springs to mind?
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Speaker 1: Joe Scott Morgan. I mean, this is a mass stabbing.
16:45
Speaker 1: There's got to be fingerprints, DNA fibers, off the defendant,
16:51
Speaker 1: off the suspect. Agree, disagree, disagree? This is going to
16:55
Speaker 1: be I'm sorry. Agree, this is going to be an
16:57
Speaker 1: evidence light into you like nobody's business dark. I think
17:03
Speaker 1: I need some more hot tea on that. I was
17:05
Speaker 1: all happy, go ahead. And to David's point, which I
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Speaker 1: think is quite interesting. When you begin to think about
17:12
Speaker 1: the layout of this place, if it is the size
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Speaker 1: that it is, and it's not necessarily size, it's kind
17:17
Speaker 1: of the construction of it. If it's a multi story dwelling,
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Speaker 1: you know, one of the first things that comes to mind, Nancy,
17:23
Speaker 1: for me is thinking, was somebody laying in wait and
17:26
Speaker 1: was able to prey on these victims individually, or maybe
17:31
Speaker 1: two at a time, because when I think about a
17:34
Speaker 1: mass stabbing, that's something that generally is very chaotic. You
17:39
Speaker 1: hear about this mass attacks with a knife and that
17:42
Speaker 1: sort of thing. People run scurrying, screaming, that sort of thing.
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Speaker 1: But you know, to the best of my knowledge, there's
17:48
Speaker 1: nobody that's necessarily alerting in this event. Can you play
17:52
Speaker 1: spake normally? You mean, when you say alerting, do you
17:56
Speaker 1: mean screaming? Yeah? Well, look, I mean we've all we've
18:01
Speaker 1: all lived, if we've attended you in an undergraduate circumstance,
18:05
Speaker 1: or maybe you've lived in our apartment complex. You know,
18:07
Speaker 1: proximity walls are not necessarily thick in these things. And
18:12
Speaker 1: you really wonder did anyone here any screaming during the night?
18:16
Speaker 1: Did anyone hear any ruckus furniture being broken? We don't
18:19
Speaker 1: know about the nature of the scene. And here's one
18:21
Speaker 1: other thing that we don't know yet is the distribution
18:25
Speaker 1: of the remains. Where were they were they all grouped together?
18:30
Speaker 1: You said that this young man was up on the
18:32
Speaker 1: top floor, second floor, second floor, Okay, well he was
18:36
Speaker 1: on an upper floor away from the girls. And I'm wondering, well,
18:40
Speaker 1: what position were they in at that moment time? Were
18:43
Speaker 1: they able? Was this individual able to take them unawares?
18:46
Speaker 1: He just said everything that I said, except you said
18:49
Speaker 1: it a little bit better. You know, my son has
18:52
Speaker 1: a student in his class like you. The teacher will
18:54
Speaker 1: say something and then he goes, well, I think, and
18:58
Speaker 1: he'll restate it, and it looks very thoughtful as he's
19:03
Speaker 1: doing it. So we know Ethan, we think, Ava jump
19:12
Speaker 1: in Ava, Wayne House joining me k HQ local. We
19:16
Speaker 1: hear we understand Ethan on the second floor, and that
19:20
Speaker 1: suggests to me that the girls were on the third floor.
19:23
Speaker 1: Do you know anything Ava about that. I was just
19:26
Speaker 1: want to say that this is confusing for the community
19:31
Speaker 1: and for these students. I was staying at the home
19:36
Speaker 1: in the neighborhood. We had friends who have a home
19:39
Speaker 1: base there, and we were editing and doing our jobs,
19:43
Speaker 1: while these students are surrounding us and they're just saying,
19:49
Speaker 1: I'm hearing so many mixed reviews, mixed information, misinformation groomers,
19:56
Speaker 1: and this community, these families deserve to know what really happened. Okay, wait, wait, wait,
20:03
Speaker 1: wait wait wait, Avo Wayne House, what do you mean
20:05
Speaker 1: you're hearing mixed information. I'm saying students were just when
20:11
Speaker 1: everything originally happened, the lack of confirmation you know from
20:16
Speaker 1: I mean, at first it was rumors of murder suicide
20:19
Speaker 1: that was ruled out. Things like that. When you live
20:23
Speaker 1: in a small college town, it hurts to not know exactly.
20:30
Speaker 1: And even forty eight hours later, when we were still
20:33
Speaker 1: on seen students who are feeling like they wanted more
20:38
Speaker 1: from local authorities, and especially wanted more for the families
20:43
Speaker 1: of the victims. You know, very interesting you brought up
20:46
Speaker 1: the specter of murder suicide. I don't see it. I
20:49
Speaker 1: don't say one of these four killing the other three
20:53
Speaker 1: and then themselves. Just a couple of hours before the
20:56
Speaker 1: murders go down, all four are pictured and happy, go
21:00
Speaker 1: lucky photo. One girl it's on another girl's shoulders. They're
21:03
Speaker 1: all smiling together. Two of them were dating. I believe
21:08
Speaker 1: it was Ethan shape and and Zanna Crenodle. The two
21:12
Speaker 1: of them dating. Two of the girls grew up together.
21:16
Speaker 1: I've been best friends since sixth grade. Two of the
21:18
Speaker 1: girls were in the same sorority. Two of the girls
21:21
Speaker 1: not necessarily the same. Two worked at the Mad Greek restaurant.
21:24
Speaker 1: They're all very close. Murder suicide is just not fitting
21:28
Speaker 1: together evidence wise to me. I want you to take
21:32
Speaker 1: a listen now to our friends at GMA, a tight
21:37
Speaker 1: knit community in northern Idaho, reeling after four University of
21:41
Speaker 1: Idaho students were found dead in an apartment across the
21:44
Speaker 1: street from campus. I think it's shocking for everybody. Police
21:48
Speaker 1: are calling it a homicide authority. You see. The initial
21:51
Speaker 1: call for an unconscious person came in just before noon Sunday,
21:55
Speaker 1: but Mayor Art Betkey telling ABC News the crime happened
21:58
Speaker 1: hours before. Given what the nature of the scene was,
22:04
Speaker 1: they've indicated that it was three or four in the
22:06
Speaker 1: morning when things happened. Once officers arrived, they found a
22:09
Speaker 1: horrifying scene. Three women and one man, all members of
22:13
Speaker 1: the Greek community on campus, were dead. The foursome scene
22:17
Speaker 1: here in this photo posted by Kaylee Goncavs just hours
22:20
Speaker 1: before their deaths. There isn't a person on campus who
22:23
Speaker 1: isn't affected by this. I mean, these are like really
22:27
Speaker 1: adored and loved people on our campus. Freshman Ethan Champan's
22:31
Speaker 1: brother telling ABC News in a statement, we are triplets
22:34
Speaker 1: and it's hard to imagine life without him. Doctor Michelle
22:37
Speaker 1: Duprie is joining us for instance pathologists, medical examiner, detective,
22:42
Speaker 1: author of homicide Investigation field guide Doctor Duprie a stabbing.
22:46
Speaker 1: They're saying a sharp edged implement. Well, obviously it's a knife.
22:51
Speaker 1: I'm wondering is it serrated? Did the knife come from
22:55
Speaker 1: that location or was it brought to that location? They
22:59
Speaker 1: likely hood of a suicide by stabbing. It's extremely low statistically,
23:06
Speaker 1: I'd like you to weigh in on that. And also
23:09
Speaker 1: regarding the edge of the knife, it's very difficult, but
23:14
Speaker 1: is possible in very few scenarios to match a particular
23:21
Speaker 1: knife to a wound. Why because flesh is static, it's moving,
23:27
Speaker 1: and therefore you can't get a good pattern because the
23:31
Speaker 1: flesh itself is moving. It's not like getting a plastic
23:35
Speaker 1: mold of a knife. So that's going to be difficult. However,
23:40
Speaker 1: we do know that police are scouring the area, including trash.
23:45
Speaker 1: Because we also know, and doctor Robertson can jump in
23:48
Speaker 1: on this, that it's human instinct to throw away the
23:52
Speaker 1: murder weapon immediately goes all the way back to Kane
23:56
Speaker 1: and Abel. He kills Abel and tosses the weapon, tries
24:01
Speaker 1: to get rid of it. That's how old that instinct is.
24:05
Speaker 1: So right now, doctor Dupree, police scouring trash cans, roadways,
24:11
Speaker 1: behind walls, gates looking for the knife. I'm hoping if
24:16
Speaker 1: and when they find the knife that it is a
24:19
Speaker 1: wooden handled knife. Why because it's easier to get DNA
24:25
Speaker 1: off of a porous surface such as wood, as opposed
24:29
Speaker 1: to metal or plastic. How likely do you believe is
24:34
Speaker 1: it that there are Prince fiber or DNA left behind,
24:38
Speaker 1: doctor Dupree. And we are seeing the emergence of a
24:41
Speaker 1: timeline right now, the murders now being placed between three
24:46
Speaker 1: and four am. And if you listen carefully to that
24:48
Speaker 1: last bit of news, they refer to the homicides. They
24:52
Speaker 1: did not refer to suicide homicide exactly, Nancy, And I've
24:55
Speaker 1: actually only had one taste where there was a suicide
24:59
Speaker 1: by a sharp edge instrument. What was that cutting of
25:02
Speaker 1: the risks? No, it was not. He stabbed himself in
25:05
Speaker 1: the heart when he was about to be apprehended. So
25:07
Speaker 1: I'm excluding suicide by risk cutting. I'm talking suicide my stabbing.
25:13
Speaker 1: It just highly unlikely. I don't see it here, So
25:18
Speaker 1: how can you tell the timeline. Now, I know there
25:20
Speaker 1: is extrinsic evidence, evidence not relating to the bodies or
25:25
Speaker 1: the autopsies, that suggest the murders occur between three and
25:28
Speaker 1: four am. That most likely is a twitch picture or
25:33
Speaker 1: video that has emerged just a couple of hours before
25:37
Speaker 1: the murders, where at least two of the victims are
25:39
Speaker 1: at a food cart getting food. They're alive and happy,
25:42
Speaker 1: So you know, between cell phone data texts, we know
25:47
Speaker 1: one of the girls texted mom every single day at
25:49
Speaker 1: least talk to where every day. Extrinsic evidence may give
25:53
Speaker 1: us a timeline. But looking at the bodies alone, doctor Dupree,
25:56
Speaker 1: how do we set the timeline as the murders of
25:58
Speaker 1: carry between three and four am. We can look at
26:00
Speaker 1: several things. We look at them sea markers, We look
26:03
Speaker 1: at things like how dry is the blood, where is
26:06
Speaker 1: the blood a part of the patterns, the blood spatter patterns.
26:10
Speaker 1: We look at all that types of information. And going
26:13
Speaker 1: back to the knife that you mentioned, absolutely, I believe
26:16
Speaker 1: that if and when the knife is found there will
26:18
Speaker 1: be trace evidence on that. There should be hair's fibers,
26:21
Speaker 1: certainly hopefully blood. Usually when there are homicides by sharp
26:26
Speaker 1: horsed instruments, the perpetrator will actually cut themselves, especially when
26:31
Speaker 1: they are stabbing someone. It's not uncommon for them to
26:34
Speaker 1: cut their hand as well, So that may even have
26:37
Speaker 1: that person's DNA on the knife when found right when
26:40
Speaker 1: you're holding a knife, you're holding it like this, and
26:44
Speaker 1: when you make contact with the body of the victim,
26:48
Speaker 1: your hand slides down past the hilt and you slice
26:53
Speaker 1: your own hand. That happens a lot more than we
26:58
Speaker 1: know exactly, Hence the discovery of the defendant's DNA on
27:02
Speaker 1: the murder weapon. Doctor Sean robertson joining us out of Edmund,
27:07
Speaker 1: Doctor Robinson, why is it that has something to do
27:12
Speaker 1: with instinct? I guess that the killer always wants to
27:16
Speaker 1: immediately get rid of the murder weapon. Well, certainly you
27:19
Speaker 1: want to eliminate any trace back to yourself. You know.
27:22
Speaker 1: I've had many many cases where knives were used as
27:25
Speaker 1: the weapons. You know, sometimes they're buried or hidden. I
27:29
Speaker 1: had one case where an individual threw it into a
27:33
Speaker 1: into a retention pond at the front of a neighborhood. Actually,
27:37
Speaker 1: that was how they ended up getting caught, is that
27:39
Speaker 1: they had told somebody where the knife was and they
27:41
Speaker 1: drained the pond idiot, and they were able to match
27:44
Speaker 1: a piece of the knife that had broken in the
27:48
Speaker 1: victim back to the knife that they found. So certainly
27:52
Speaker 1: you want to distance yourself from the murder weapon as
27:55
Speaker 1: quickly as possible. You know, another thing to Captain Taylor West,
27:59
Speaker 1: Special joining US Captain and Davis County Sheriff's Office in Farmington,
28:04
Speaker 1: Captain West, when you're talking about a stabbing, I find
28:11
Speaker 1: very often, at least in the US, not necessarily in
28:14
Speaker 1: Britain where they don't have as much access to guns,
28:17
Speaker 1: but in the US, very often that the nature of
28:22
Speaker 1: a stabbing indicates that you know your victim. It's much
28:27
Speaker 1: more up close and personal. What do you think about that, Captain,
28:30
Speaker 1: I believe had to be true. I think stabbings are
28:32
Speaker 1: much more intimate of a crime. It's also very interesting
28:36
Speaker 1: to me in this case that these are four adults. Now, granted,
28:39
Speaker 1: the girls are petite nature vision by their pictures, but
28:43
Speaker 1: for a single person to overtake four adults with a knife,
28:48
Speaker 1: that's some extraordinary resolved to commit that crime. And I
28:53
Speaker 1: wouldn't be surprised in this case if the victims were
28:56
Speaker 1: first either herded into a room or even bound and
29:00
Speaker 1: then murdered, which would really lead to the intimacy of
29:04
Speaker 1: that crime. If someone could find four people or contain
29:07
Speaker 1: them into a room and then still take the effort
29:09
Speaker 1: to commit a homicide against each of them individually, is
29:15
Speaker 1: something that I haven't encountered in my career. A quadruple
29:18
Speaker 1: stabbing homicide. Well, this is an amazing situation. I'm intrigued
29:24
Speaker 1: by the fact that this is reported to be a
29:26
Speaker 1: six bedroom rental home. Now we know that at least
29:32
Speaker 1: three of these people lived there. Was there some other
29:35
Speaker 1: resident that was involved here, and that give both some
29:40
Speaker 1: opportunity for access, obtaining a weapon on site, some intimate
29:45
Speaker 1: knowledge of the neighborhood. It intrigues me, and I'm I'm
29:50
Speaker 1: not buying into the people who are critical of the
29:53
Speaker 1: police for saying there's no general threat to the public.
29:56
Speaker 1: I think these fact patterns suggest that this is something
30:00
Speaker 1: very intimate and emotional and perhaps even with another resident. Well, Okay,
30:06
Speaker 1: let's analyze that, David Leroy, Okay, there's five girls living there.
30:10
Speaker 1: Five girls. These three girls lived there. Ethan did not
30:19
Speaker 1: live there, He was there staying over with his girlfriend.
30:22
Speaker 1: That means there were two other girls that live there. Therefore,
30:28
Speaker 1: I do not believe it's someone else that lives in
30:30
Speaker 1: the home. I don't think they're the prope because I
30:32
Speaker 1: don't think a woman did this for obvious reasons, A
30:36
Speaker 1: statistically never happens, and be this is highly, highly aggressive
30:44
Speaker 1: and takes a lot of power to overcome for people
30:46
Speaker 1: unless they're sleeping. Unless they're sleeping, I'm wondering if that's
30:52
Speaker 1: what happened. Time stories with Nancy Grace to Aba Wayne
31:10
Speaker 1: House joining us in KHQ. I understood that some of
31:15
Speaker 1: the neighbors heard a ruckus before the murders. Is that true?
31:19
Speaker 1: I have not been told that if that is true, Okay,
31:23
Speaker 1: So you don't know the answer to that. Do you
31:24
Speaker 1: know if there are any suggestions there was a robbery
31:27
Speaker 1: or a sex attack? I do not know. Okay, guess
31:29
Speaker 1: all I needed to know. Do you know anything about
31:32
Speaker 1: the possibility that there was a forced entry into the home.
31:36
Speaker 1: Did somebody break into the home? A broken window, a
31:38
Speaker 1: Jimmy D window, anything like that. We do not know.
31:41
Speaker 1: It's just a huge, huge lack of transparency. Yes, you're right,
31:48
Speaker 1: But to you, Captain Taylor West, some people may call
31:52
Speaker 1: it a lack of transparency, and they're right, But having
31:56
Speaker 1: prosecuted literally thousands of cases Inner City Atlanta, there's a
32:01
Speaker 1: reason you don't give the media every single detail. A
32:06
Speaker 1: lot of reasons. Absolutely. There's, as you know, the prosecutor's
32:10
Speaker 1: prosecutorial reasons. There's hold back information that we like to
32:13
Speaker 1: keep back to help solidify a case upon the confession
32:16
Speaker 1: later on. There's information that the public doesn't need to
32:19
Speaker 1: know in regard to intimate details of the case. There's
32:22
Speaker 1: always information that we don't want to want to share
32:24
Speaker 1: that could jeopardize that prosecution in any way. I do
32:28
Speaker 1: agree a little bit that the police department in Moscow,
32:33
Speaker 1: in conjunction with the administrative office the mayor, it seems
32:36
Speaker 1: like they are sending mixed messages looking at some of
32:38
Speaker 1: the press releases, or that they're not communicating well, and
32:42
Speaker 1: it would probably be good for them to get on
32:44
Speaker 1: the same page in regard to the message they're releasing
32:46
Speaker 1: to at least calm some of those fears. I don't
32:48
Speaker 1: know the mayor, captain, but he needs to shut his
32:52
Speaker 1: piehole pronto, because you just did the opposite of what
32:56
Speaker 1: you said the kid in your son's class does. Yeah,
32:59
Speaker 1: you're right, I did, but I said the mayor. Did
33:02
Speaker 1: he say the mayor before I said the mayor? Okay, yeah, okay,
33:05
Speaker 1: you when you're right. I think what's probably most disturbing
33:08
Speaker 1: to the public is the fact that they have stated
33:11
Speaker 1: that there's no risk to the public, but yet they've
33:14
Speaker 1: never announced if the suspect is in custody, if the
33:17
Speaker 1: suspect is already dead. I mean, obviously, if they don't
33:20
Speaker 1: know who did this, then there is a risk to
33:23
Speaker 1: the public if the person is not in custody or
33:26
Speaker 1: not already dead. Is this David Leroy or Captain West.
33:29
Speaker 1: This is doctor Robertson. Doctor Robertson, You're right, and that
33:32
Speaker 1: is getting a lot of people upset. You got four
33:35
Speaker 1: dead bodies, innocent co eds, and they're saying there's not
33:40
Speaker 1: a risk. I'm telling you, doctor Robertson. People the students
33:44
Speaker 1: are leaving. There's a mass exodus right now. Do you
33:46
Speaker 1: blame them? Because I lived in a house much like this.
33:50
Speaker 1: As a matter of fact, I think that it would
33:52
Speaker 1: have been like a twelve bedroom structure and it was
33:57
Speaker 1: divided into four big, long apartments with multiple roommates. I
34:02
Speaker 1: can tell you this much. If someone had been stabbed
34:05
Speaker 1: in that off campus community. I would have left. There's
34:09
Speaker 1: no way. My parents wouldn't let me stay there. You're right, doctor, Well,
34:13
Speaker 1: all of their statements seem to suggest that the likely
34:17
Speaker 1: perpetrator knew them. They say it was isolated, they described
34:21
Speaker 1: it as targeted, they said it was a crime of passion.
34:24
Speaker 1: All of these would suggest that they know who did it,
34:28
Speaker 1: and that the person probably knew the victims, which is
34:31
Speaker 1: usually the case. Perpetrators usually know they're victims. So that
34:35
Speaker 1: just begs the question of why are they not releasing
34:39
Speaker 1: the name of who it is if there's no risk
34:41
Speaker 1: to the public. Is that aviad jumping ins? Yeah, I'm sorry.
34:44
Speaker 1: This is like the main thing that I've wanted to
34:47
Speaker 1: touch based on because this is like I've been in
34:51
Speaker 1: Moscow since Monday, We've had a cruise here since Sunday.
34:55
Speaker 1: I'm in the hotel right now, going back out today,
34:57
Speaker 1: and no matter who I talked to, this is the
35:01
Speaker 1: main concern. So just the mixed messages from local authorities,
35:06
Speaker 1: when the mayor saying the crime of passion, later attracting
35:10
Speaker 1: that statement, and then the police saying they can't they're
35:16
Speaker 1: not going to be releasing any information right now. The details,
35:20
Speaker 1: it's preliminary, the investigation is ongoing. That's understandable. But when
35:26
Speaker 1: the community here's the mayor originally say, he says this
35:31
Speaker 1: is a crime of passion, and then that alerts saying
35:35
Speaker 1: that they don't believe that they're a threat to the public. Currently,
35:39
Speaker 1: the community is feeling just overwhelmed with the fact that
35:45
Speaker 1: they don't know who to believe. They don't know how
35:49
Speaker 1: to respond to this because two people, two entities more
35:54
Speaker 1: than that, are saying things that contradict one another. Guys,
35:57
Speaker 1: take a listen to our cut fifty our friends at
36:00
Speaker 1: crime online dot com. Ethan Chapin's mother, Sarah, tells a
36:04
Speaker 1: reporter for The Statesman that a friend discovered the bodies
36:07
Speaker 1: and called nine one one. Police arrived just before noon
36:10
Speaker 1: on Sunday. Authorities say though students died between three and
36:15
Speaker 1: four am. In an interview with The New York Times,
36:18
Speaker 1: Moscow's mayor described the killings as a crime of fashion,
36:22
Speaker 1: and the county coroner, Kathy Maybet, says there was a
36:25
Speaker 1: lot of blood at the scene. Autopsies have not yet
36:28
Speaker 1: been completed, but Maybet says the cause likely will be stabbings.
36:33
Speaker 1: The coroner added that once the toxicology reports come back,
36:36
Speaker 1: she does not think it will be relevant to the
36:39
Speaker 1: manner or cause of death. Stacy Chappin says in a
36:43
Speaker 1: Facebook message to The Statesman that police told her the
36:46
Speaker 1: students were stabbed. She also says drugs were not involved.
36:50
Speaker 1: So far, no weapon has been found, but police did
36:53
Speaker 1: release effect that quote. Based on preliminary information, investigators believe
36:59
Speaker 1: that an edged web such as a knife was used.
37:02
Speaker 1: You are hearing information that is coming from the victim's
37:06
Speaker 1: family and the coroner. The victims Ethan shape and age twenty,
37:10
Speaker 1: Madison Mogan, aged twenty one, Ethan's girlfriend Zanna car Noodle
37:15
Speaker 1: aged twenty, and Kaylee Guncal's aged twenty one, all close friends.
37:21
Speaker 1: Just Scott, we are now hearing drugs were not involved,
37:25
Speaker 1: apparently no sign of a forced entry. What do you
37:28
Speaker 1: make of it? This idea of the impassioned event is
37:32
Speaker 1: certainly on my radar at this point in time because
37:35
Speaker 1: this is such you know, as previously has been stated,
37:38
Speaker 1: this is such an up close, brutal manner and well
37:43
Speaker 1: cause of death if we're talking about edged weapon, so
37:47
Speaker 1: that means that somebody has to be fully committed to
37:49
Speaker 1: this in order to engage with an individual like this,
37:53
Speaker 1: And one of the little aside here I'd like to
37:55
Speaker 1: mention this is we kind of had something atypical handle
37:59
Speaker 1: happy in a case like this, Nancy. When you begin
38:02
Speaker 1: to think about the officials, it is not typical of
38:05
Speaker 1: a county corner to release a statement, and it wasn't
38:09
Speaker 1: just a statement. She actually gave an interview prior to
38:12
Speaker 1: the police actually giving an interview in this case. So
38:16
Speaker 1: it seems like there may be a bit of confusion
38:19
Speaker 1: on the ground. And you know, this is not a
38:22
Speaker 1: huge town. They're not used to handling cases like that.
38:26
Speaker 1: So I don't know if all of the machinery, for
38:29
Speaker 1: lack of a better term, is fully integrated here. Maybe
38:32
Speaker 1: you know, the left hand doesn't know what the right
38:33
Speaker 1: hand is doing. It just let's say lee right, let
38:36
Speaker 1: me say a word in defense of the local officials,
38:39
Speaker 1: they have generally been on the same page. They have
38:43
Speaker 1: now told us that they're investigating timelines, and in this
38:47
Speaker 1: small community, there will very certainly, very swiftly, I believe,
38:52
Speaker 1: be a person of interests identified because you simply are
38:56
Speaker 1: not going to be able to hide the kind of
38:58
Speaker 1: anger and passion that would be within a single perpetrator
39:03
Speaker 1: to causeless event from all those other students who live
39:06
Speaker 1: in close proximity and go to class, attend the restaurant.
39:10
Speaker 1: This will be. This will be moving swiftly, I believe.
39:13
Speaker 1: And the local officials, indeed in a small community, are
39:17
Speaker 1: not very well trained in these kinds of disasters, but
39:21
Speaker 1: they have generally done a consistent job and they will
39:24
Speaker 1: have a person of interest announced very soon. In my opinion,
39:27
Speaker 1: I think you're right, Leroy. Guys, take a listen to
39:30
Speaker 1: our cut seventeen our friends at crime online. Who are
39:34
Speaker 1: these victims? The four victims ranged from a freshman to
39:37
Speaker 1: a senior, and we're friends. All three women were from
39:40
Speaker 1: the same county. Mogan and Gonsalves graduated together from Lake
39:44
Speaker 1: City High School in twenty nineteen, and they were named
39:48
Speaker 1: to the university's dean list for spring twenty twenty one.
39:52
Speaker 1: Carnodle and Mogan worked together at the Mad Greek Restaurant
39:55
Speaker 1: in downtown Moscow. Chapin and Carnodle we're dating, and Chapin
39:59
Speaker 1: was north of Seattle in Conway, Washington. As police put
40:03
Speaker 1: together a timeline of the twenty four hours before the murders.
40:07
Speaker 1: Melissa Holly tells reporters her daughter Riley, a junior at
40:11
Speaker 1: the university, was at a bar with one of the
40:14
Speaker 1: women earlier in the evening. So the timelines are adding
40:17
Speaker 1: up and police are looking at the movements and the
40:19
Speaker 1: victims leading up to the murders. Also take a listen
40:22
Speaker 1: to our cuts. Eight and nine are prints at Gama.
40:25
Speaker 1: There's been no name suspect, but as this investigation continues,
40:29
Speaker 1: you believe that the students and residents of the city
40:34
Speaker 1: are safe right now, right especially because given the very
40:40
Speaker 1: focused nature of what went on there no other apartments
40:44
Speaker 1: nearby were involved, and in the ensuing eight or nine
40:48
Speaker 1: hours between the actuality of the crime and the call
40:52
Speaker 1: into the police, nothing happened. I think the eventual conclusion
40:58
Speaker 1: is going to bear out the fact that this was
41:00
Speaker 1: a one off crime that was committed and was very
41:05
Speaker 1: focused and doesn't involve other students or the public in
41:08
Speaker 1: general at all. And the mayor went on to say
41:11
Speaker 1: that he thinks the suspects could be named in the
41:13
Speaker 1: coming days. He also said they're in Moscow, the city
41:16
Speaker 1: and the university are incredibly intertwined. He described this crime
41:19
Speaker 1: as horrific rare and isolated. If you know or think
41:25
Speaker 1: you know anything about these murders, remember families have been
41:31
Speaker 1: left devastated. Please dial two zero eight eight eight two
41:38
Speaker 1: two six seven seven Repeat two zero eight eight eight
41:43
Speaker 1: two two six seven seven. Nancy Grace Crime Story signing
41:48
Speaker 1: off goodbye from