Latest / Nightmare Success In and Out / Sentenced to Life Without Parole at 19 | How David Carrillo Earned an MBA in Prison & Won Clemency

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Sentenced to Life Without Parole at 19 | How David Carrillo Earned an MBA in Prison & Won Clemency · Nightmare Success In and Out

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  Every reality that we we have that's that's coming into our
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  mind is, is because that's what where our relevancy is at,
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  right, where our focus is at, where, where our beliefs are
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  about everything is there inside of our head.
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  And when you understand the power that you really have to
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  shape how you see the world, right, as Covey calls it, having
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  a paradigm shift, right, your paradigms, your patterns of
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  expectations, when you really, really, truly understand the
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  power that we have, man, you can create a whole new narrative,
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  right? You can create a whole new
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  story. And when you, you know, they
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  said this a lot in prison and a lot of the, the prison, you
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  know, those no cognitive renewable things.
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  But it man, it's so ring so true, right?
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  As when you start to change the way you think, right?
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  You start to change the way you feel.
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  And when you start to change the way you feel, you start to
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  change the things you do. And when you change the things
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  you do, you start to get different things right.
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  And I'm proof positive with that concept, man.
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  I changed the way I thought, which changed the way I felt,
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  which changed what I was doing. And it literally opened up.
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  Changed the doors. Changed my life.
• 0:59
  What happens when your worst fear becomes your reality?
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  Hi, I'm Brent Cassidy, welcome to the Nightmare Success In and
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  Out podcast where we explore how to overcome your fears and
• 1:09
  nightmares to set yourself free. We're going to be exploring this
• 1:12
  topic with guys that was in Leavenworth with and others who
• 1:15
  survived their own nightmare. These stories can be inspiring,
• 1:19
  sometimes sad. There's some humor, but
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  hopefully you can come away with a nugget of something that'll
• 1:25
  help you knock down some of the prisons you built up in your own
• 1:28
  mind. Welcome back nightmare
• 1:30
  successive now listeners, This is where you come from.
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  What happens when your worst fear becomes your reality?
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  How do you adapt, survive, overcome?
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  Set yourself free folks, Don't forget to follow, subscribe,
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  share this thing out, like it up.
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  It really helps the show and I, I really appreciate it.
• 1:46
  So who's our guest today? Who we talking to today?
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  I I just told it's David Carrillo and I just read his
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  book. And for anybody who's looking
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  for a book where it'll just take you in and you don't put it
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  down, it was 130 last night. I don't stay up that late.
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  My wife, my wife rolled over. She says, what are you doing?
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  I said, I have no idea, but I've gotten into this book and I
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  can't put it down. The book is called Kiko, Life
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  without Parole to life with Purpose.
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  And it, it takes you, I mean, well, we're going to get into
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  all this, but it, it takes you on a ride on a journey and it's
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  authentic and it's raw and it's real and you can't put it down.
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  But a little bit about David. David as a young man, David
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  entered the prison system and was sentenced to life without
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  the possibility of parole. And it's an interesting case
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  because it was a gang related thing.
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  He was not the trigger man. He was one of the several people
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  that was around. And so it was complicity of
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  first degree murder. So it was it's and the person
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  who was the trigger person got 35 years and he got life without
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  parole. So there was some disparity
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  there. Obviously, David spent years
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  inside Maxim Security prisons, surrounded by violence, loss,
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  and the daily reality that his life would likely end behind
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  bars. But instead of surrendering to
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  despair, David made a defining decision to take full
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  responsibility for his past, to commit to himself, to
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  transformation. This did not happen by the snap
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  of his fingers, which he describes in his book.
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  It took years to make this change happen, but it happened
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  while serving a life sentence. David pursued education with
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  relentless discipline, earning both his bachelor's degree and
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  an MBA while incarcerated. He became a mentor to others
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  inside choosing growth, accountability, and purpose in
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  an environment designed to strip away all three.
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  This is really interesting. David became the first of his
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  kind, an Aunt Junk professor who was teaching as an inmate,
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  teaching other inmates college courses and being paid as a
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  professor. Unbelievable.
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  And we're going to talk about that because I just, it's, it's,
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  it's quite amazing. And he's, he's out now.
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  He, he served 31 years and he's doing incredible things while
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  he's been out. David's story challenges how we
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  think about punishment, redemption, and who society
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  allows to change. This is, this isn't a story
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  about excuses. It's about ownership, education,
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  and what's possible when someone refuses to let their sentence
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  define their destiny. I can't wait to jump into all
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  this. This is a story that has so many
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  chapters of stuff that we can learn from.
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  David Carrillo, welcome in. How are you my man?
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  Thank you for having me. I'm, I'm doing great.
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  I'm, I'm, you know, I mean, relatively speaking, I think I'm
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  doing fantastic. You are doing fantastic.
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  Yeah. You know, like I said in the
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  opening, you know, I read your book and and I read a lot of
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  books. You know, us guys that go to
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  prison, we we get into reading stuff, your book in particular,
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  you know, you didn't, you didn't pull any punch.
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  You just you just we walk with you on this journey on in your
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  book. And I got to tell you, David,
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  when I was reading about your childhood, it almost brings
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  tears to your eyes because you see this kid that's trying to
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  kind of do the right thing, you know, do snow shoveling, clean
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  yards, do you know, do a paper route.
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  But you're every single term with every single family member
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  around you, cousins, it's all. And then and then they warehouse
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  you as children that it's just all pushing you into the wrong
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  direction. Can you open up about what that
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  was like being a kid in that environment and how what you
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  were thinking growing up? Yeah, yeah.
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  I mean, you know, the interesting thing when I, when I
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  reflect on it, I realized the, you know, the, the dysfunction
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  and the trauma that I was being exposed to.
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  But at the time, I mean, honestly, it, it seemed like
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  normal, right? It was, this was life.
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  This was, this is how things were.
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  And, you know, I, I opened up about that because, you know,
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  sadly, too many kids are going through that, right?
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  Too many kids are being exposed to dysfunctional and not really
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  a normal life but living it as if this is.
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  Normal. Right.
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  And, and we're, we're being molded and shaped into values
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  and belief systems that aren't very valuable at all, if you
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  will, right like. Yeah, 'cause your dad was
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  teaching you the ways of life, but he was teaching the ways in
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  the streets and how to be, you know, more or less in, in a
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  gang. And, and you have your your
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  brother and your sister and you had such a complicated
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  relationship with your dad. I could all the way through
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  until the end. But when you had these
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  situations when your dad would go to prison and your mom was in
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  this situation and you guys became wards of the state and
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  then you go to foster care, the part where you're in California
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  and your grandparents didn't want you and you end up
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  basically in this warehouse. What?
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  What was what was that like as a kid?
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  Oh, yeah, it, you know, it was rough, right?
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  I mean, growing up watching my dad in and out of the
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  penitentiary, I mean, I remember him telling stories to us when
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  he would come home about his experiences in prisons, you
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  know, like, so we would. I had heard war stories about
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  prison long before I had even any idea of what a prison was,
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  right. I mean, I, I visited my dad in
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  prison, but I mean, I'm a young boy, right?
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  I don't really have any real concept or idea of what what is
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  going on with this and dealing with that experience of him in
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  and out and, and, you know, already preparing us for this
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  world. And my mom's struggling, trying
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  to to keep things together while he's away.
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  And then when he's coming home, having to deal with the violence
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  in the house until it finally broke between the two of them,
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  right? And they finally got divorced.
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  And as they were going through the divorce, it was an ugly
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  divorce, custody battles. They threw us in foster homes,
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  me and my brother and my sister we so we stood in in in foster
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  homes for a while as they battled out custody.
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  And you weren't that old, David, when you.
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  Were no, no, I wasn't. I was, I was roughly around 11
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  years old at this time. And my brother, my younger
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  brother and sister, you know, even younger, you know, and the
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  interesting thing was my dad was in jail in California at the
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  time when they were going through this custody battle.
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  So my mom was, was, was on the streets.
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  My dad was in jail. None of the family wanted us, so
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  we ended up in in foster care. There was a huge battle with all
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  of this, and then my dad ultimately won custody of all
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  three of us while sitting in jail.
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  Which is amazing. So you had that in the book.
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  I was like, how in the world did that happen?
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  Yeah, it was kind of wild. I did, you know, I really don't
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  know how he won. I mean, I never, we never sat
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  down and talked about strategy and never was giving any
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  explanation. I just know the, the, the end
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  result through all of these court hearings and, and, and
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  these battles was my, my dad, you know, was Vic.
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  And So what ended up happening is while my dad was still in
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  jail, they had sent us out to Colorado where my grandparents
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  lived, my, my dad's parents, for us to stay there and wait for
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  our dad, you know, and, and when he did finally get out of jail
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  and show back up to Colorado, he didn't take us right away.
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  We still remained with our grandparents and my brother
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  started getting in trouble at first, you know, I was like I, I
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  mentioned in the book about, you know, paper routes and stuff.
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  You know, I was trying to kind of build my own life, if you
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  will, right? I wanted things.
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  You didn't have money. It came from nothing.
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  So I wanted money. And so I would go out there and
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  I would hustle for. That you've been doing lemonade
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  stand with cookies. Oh yeah, my mom would.
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  My mom would help me bake up a cookie so I could do all that
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  because I, I wanted to make my own money, right?
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  I wanted. This isn't a hardcore.
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  Kid yeah. And not really I wasn't a
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  hardcore kid by any stress, but you know, but that's the thing,
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  right? Most young kids are they're good
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  kids at you know, and they're just trying to figure this stuff
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  out. And so now here we are.
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  Flash forward, we're in junior high school now things are are
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  are not great at my grandparents house.
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  You know, we were, we really weren't wanted there.
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  And this was shown through a lot of the emotional abuse we
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  experienced, not just the cycle, the physical, but the, the
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  psychological and emotional abuse that we had experienced.
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  And so my brother started to run away.
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  After numerous attempts to try to get things right with my
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  little brother, he was sent back to California because even
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  though my dad had won custody of us, we were still considered
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  wards of the state of California.
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  And so after my brother gets sent off, I, I start acting up.
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  I didn't like, I couldn't deal with the abuses anymore.
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  So I started to run away. And, you know, I'm living on the
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  streets in Pueblo trying to find a way away.
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  And they didn't, they didn't play around with me as long as
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  they did with my brother. They immediately were like,
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  we're, we're not putting up with this one.
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  Send him back. So they send me back to
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  California. And I remember going to McLaren
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  Hall in El Monte, CA and this place was supposed to be like a
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  social services place, right? Where kids who are dealing with,
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  you know, custody issues and, and, and abandonment, you know,
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  parents. Yeah, it's supposed to be like
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  that. But man, this place was wild.
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  And I remember walking into this place and I'm not walking in the
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  the the social worker picked me up from the airport and drives
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  me to the facility. I remember the gate opening,
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  right? It looks just like if you're
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  driving in South Prison or South Park, right?
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  And so that gate opens up, we drive in, the gate closes, we
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  get out of the car and they buzz us into the facility.
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  I remember the sound of the buzz and, you know, the door popping
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  open. And there I go in for a medical
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  examination. And you know, like when you go
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  into a prison for the first time and you, you go through the
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  diagnostic center, right? And they do your, your, your
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  psyche, Val and all that type of stuff, your risk assessment.
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  I mean, I went through this kind of process in this place that
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  was supposed to be for social service, right?
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  It was wild. And then after I was done with
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  all of that, they, they Take Me Out to the cottage that they had
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  assigned me to. What were you?
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  Thinking, David, because this felt like prison, I'm sure.
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  I mean, I was going through your mind like you don't know what's
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  coming at. You yeah, I didn't know what was
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  going on. I mean, I was, I was scared, I
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  was anxious. You know, I was curious.
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  I was, I mean, there was just so many emotions going on and they
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  and I don't know what to expect, right?
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  I mean, my dad had told me a whole lot of stories, but like,
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  this is my first time really being put into a place like
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  this. I mean, I did the foster care
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  and then I was in this facility called Yahtzee, the youth
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  adolescent treatment center in Pueblo.
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  That's where I was at before they sent me to McLaren Hall in
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  this place. This wasn't nothing.
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  It was actually in a hospital. So it was a little ward with a a
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  handful of kids in this hospital.
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  And so I get to McLaren Hall and now I'm entering into my cottage
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  and here's all these kids, right?
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  And I mean, just a bunch of them in there.
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  There's some in rooms like dorm style rooms and in, in the area
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  where like the like the kind of like the living room area, you
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  know, day hall, like day halls in prison, you had the TV, but
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  you had guys that were on cots, right?
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  Because not, not as many, not enough room for all the kids
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  that they had in this place. So kids were sleeping out on
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  cots in the middle of the floor. And so that night I'm on a cot,
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  right? I, I hadn't been there long.
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  So obviously I'm, I'm throwing on a cot, but you know, the kids
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  are all moving around and talking and everything.
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  And I get lured into this room and the door gets slammed shut.
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  And here's this giant white kid just waiting for me.
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  And I'm sitting there and I'm, I'm just, you know, little,
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  little young, but I'm, I'm not even, I'm not even thinking
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  about this stuff. And I like, like even the
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  politics of the racial divide isn't even in my mind.
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  And here I am now and I'm locked in this room and here's this big
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  old white kid and I'm, I'm forced to fight this kid.
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  And I don't know why I didn't know what what what the deal
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  was, you know, but this was, as I come to learn later, this was
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  the typical heart check that you get when you walk into some you.
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  Will get for the rest of your life while you're in the prison
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  system. Yeah.
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  And so next thing you know, here I am.
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  I'm, I'm, I'm fighting this, this, this monster of a kid.
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  And with all my mind and all my heart and I somehow.
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  Well, this wasn't like uncommon for you, though, David.
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  I mean, one of the things that kind of took my breath away is
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  is at a family gathering, it was you and your brother and this
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  happened. You know, this wasn't just one
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  time that it happened. They they push you out into this
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  basically, you know, arena to fight in the backyard and you
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  know it was one if you win, you don't get, you know, in trouble
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  if. You don't do seat, Yeah.
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  And you're, you're all kinds of trouble and get you another
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  beating. Yeah, you know.
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  So even though I didn't want to fight that kid, I was actually
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  already battle tested, right? I, I had the ability to fight.
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  I didn't want to fight. I wasn't that kind of kid.
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  But I was already battle tested because, yeah, I mean, since I
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  was a little boy, my man, they would pit me and my brother
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  against each other and we would be entertainment for the family
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  as me and my little brother would kick the crap out of each
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  other, you know, and those were the kind of awards like when we
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  got in trouble because we were fighting with each other.
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  So, you know, natural sibling rivalry.
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  So the, the, the consequence if you was well, go, go and fight.
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  So we're going to actually make this a sport and an
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  entertainment, and the winner becomes victorious.
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  He gets the praise, the showering of affection, and the
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  loser is going to get more and put in the room and grounded.
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  And yeah, it was just, you know, it wasn't, it wasn't the.
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  Greatest of David, I got to ask you because there was a time
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  where you're, I mean, it sounds like a lot of family was around.
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  There was a lot of drinking, there was a lot of drugs, there
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  was cousins, there was all this stuff.
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  I mean, you even talk about, you know, having the thing with your
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  cousin and you know him, him being like a sophomore and you
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  being like an eighth grader and you just want to get at him.
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  And so, you know, he's a germaphobe and you spray the
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  stuff on him and he still get, you know, the back end of this
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  thing from your grandmother. But was there a time in whether
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  it be school or anything else, where you were got outside of
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  that bubble and saw that there were different lives going on,
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  that what was going on in the backyard here or all this
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  craziness that was happening? Or was it you just stayed in
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  this bubble of this environment and that's all you knew, and
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  that was the normalized weirdness of your world?
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  Yeah, yeah. You know, all the way up until,
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  you know, that was the normalized bubble of my world.
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  All the way until I would say I was about 18, I had gotten out
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  of Lookout Mountain School for Boys, which was this juvenile
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  prison, if you will, here in Colorado.
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  And I had gotten out and I had met this individual by the name
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  of John Solis. He, I did, I went and did some
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  sort of event where I spoke to these people and he took a real
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  liking to me and wanted to try to mentor me.
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  And so he, you know, he opens up his office to me.
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  I started going to PCC public Community College.
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  And so he opens up his office to me to be able to utilize the
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  space to get away from the house, right, to utilize the
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  space to do my homework and, and study and everything like that.
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  And one day he wanted to try to show me because by this time, by
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  the time I'm 18 now, I'm entrenched in the gangs.
• 19:15
  You know, I got my neighborhood who had started up in Pueblo
• 19:18
  where were making big waves. I mean I got.
• 19:20
  To tell you, David, when I'm, when I'm reading about these
• 19:23
  stories where you've, you've, you're just kind of growing as
• 19:27
  into this person with this gang. I don't know how in the world
• 19:31
  you guys survived just those things because one time your
• 19:34
  dad, you know, and you and, and your brother, and I think
• 19:37
  there's only like 3 or 4 of you. You've got some bats and there's
• 19:40
  20 some odd people and they take off, run and thank God.
• 19:44
  But I mean, in another situation, it wasn't like that.
• 19:48
  I mean, you had so many different things that happened
• 19:51
  to you violently before you ever went into prison and and your
• 19:57
  dad was right there with you. Yeah, Pops was right there with
• 20:00
  us. I mean he did a drive by with
• 20:02
  one of the 1st Dr. Bys I was involved in was with my father.
• 20:04
  So exactly you had no idea you had your head sticking out the
• 20:08
  window. Yeah, I, I didn't, I didn't
• 20:10
  expect him to shoot. I didn't expect that, right.
• 20:12
  I mean, I knew my dad was a gangster.
• 20:14
  I knew you'd like to fight, but yeah, the drive by, I didn't
• 20:17
  expect him to pull the trigger like he did and that, that shot
• 20:20
  the heck out of me. But yes, So no, you know that.
• 20:22
  That's why I said like this was the world I had known, right?
• 20:25
  And this, this wonderful individual named John Solace, he
• 20:28
  tried to show me a different way.
• 20:29
  He wanted to show me what real power was.
• 20:31
  Yeah. And I wasn't ready for the
• 20:33
  lesson. But then, you know, when he took
• 20:34
  me on this trip one day, you know, that we start off, we go
• 20:38
  to Parkview Hospital, and he introduces me to the head Dr.
• 20:41
  and the head nurse. They offer me an internship
• 20:43
  right there on the spot. Right.
• 20:45
  I mean, once I got to the, to the, the area in school where I
• 20:50
  was going to need to do an internship, I had that locked in
• 20:52
  with, with Parkview Hospital, right Then he takes me to this
• 20:57
  bank, Miniqua Bank. And we, we, we sit down and have
• 21:00
  lunch with the president of the bank and you know, the president
• 21:03
  sitting there chopping it up with me about finances and all
• 21:05
  this type of stuff. And then after we have lunch
• 21:08
  with this individual, we head off to.
• 21:09
  What was going through your mind sitting there at that table
• 21:12
  being an 18 year old kid, knowing on the other side of the
• 21:15
  world you're living two different lives?
• 21:17
  You're you're talking to a banker here and you're also a
• 21:20
  gang leader. Well, I'm thinking the trip's
• 21:23
  cool, you know, I mean, it's, it was not, it was, it was, it was
• 21:26
  cool. It was, it was really
• 21:28
  enlightening. But at the time my my brain
• 21:30
  wasn't ready to receive. You weren't thinking, hey, wait
• 21:33
  a minute, I could maybe jump into this world.
• 21:35
  This guy's a mentor to me. This could be my path.
• 21:38
  Yeah, right, right. Yeah, You know, I mean, because
• 21:40
  then he takes me to the Chieftain and gets me a job on
• 21:42
  the spot, introduces me to all these people and I got a job.
• 21:46
  And so but in, you know, still, then I go home and what's at the
• 21:50
  house, right. And everything around me and I
• 21:52
  got, I got all the homies and, and everything.
• 21:55
  I'm I'm, I'm, I'm responsible for.
• 21:57
  At least I'm feeling like I'm responsible.
• 21:59
  I want to, I want to dive into that a little bit because for
• 22:01
  some people or a lot of people, they don't even understand how
• 22:05
  these, this gang thing, this gang culture works.
• 22:08
  But it by simply reading your book, David, what I start to
• 22:14
  understand is, is there is no real family feel that like
• 22:18
  people are taking care of each other.
• 22:19
  People are looking out for each other.
• 22:21
  There's a code when you're not getting that in the, in the your
• 22:25
  own family. These gangs serve as a way for
• 22:31
  that feeling to be, even though it's violent, it's a family.
• 22:35
  You're looking out for each other.
• 22:36
  You have a code of, of respect and, and, and there's love and
• 22:40
  there's, you know, there's all loyalty and all these things.
• 22:43
  And, and you can feel that when you're talking about it in the
• 22:46
  book that this became and that, and then you become a leader of
• 22:50
  that. You're kind of the, you know,
• 22:52
  the, the main guy that everybody's looking out for to
• 22:55
  protect them and the loyalty and teach the rules in the street
• 22:58
  and all that. And you're not that old.
• 23:02
  No, I'm, I'm most of them are my age.
• 23:04
  Actually, I had a a few members in my neighborhood who were
• 23:07
  older than me. They should have been my
• 23:09
  parents, you know, and they're they're following and listening
• 23:12
  to what I have to say. You know, I'm protecting these
• 23:14
  people and being involved in that.
• 23:16
  Yeah, it's yeah. They, it became my surrogate
• 23:19
  family, right? I mean, except out in, in this
• 23:22
  in this, you know, this, this pseudo family.
• 23:25
  I'm the, I'm the Big Brother, I'm the father, you know, I'm
• 23:27
  the one that's responsible for everybody and taking care of
• 23:31
  everything. And so whenever anything would
• 23:33
  happen, I was the, I was the front liner.
• 23:35
  I was the first one right there to go and take care of things.
• 23:38
  And, and so I, I, I built up a, a reputation within this
• 23:42
  community that that's who I was. And if you messed with any of
• 23:47
  mine, I was, I was most likely coming, coming for you because I
• 23:51
  didn't, I didn't with the, with the abuse that I experienced as
• 23:55
  a kid, you know, being picked on because I was, I was a small
• 23:57
  kid, right? I was, I was real, real skinny
• 23:59
  as a kid. And I, I, I got my book, I got
• 24:04
  bullied. I got picked on my cousin, my,
• 24:05
  my own family members, you know, they would do these things to
• 24:08
  me. And so I, I started to have this
• 24:09
  real hate for bullies. And so I ended up becoming kind
• 24:14
  of a bully myself, if you will, right?
• 24:15
  Because if anybody tried to bully in my view and my
• 24:18
  perception, anybody who was with me, I'm coming after you
• 24:22
  tenfold. Yeah, and and I'm glad you
• 24:24
  brought up the thing about you being somebody that's just a
• 24:27
  skinny kid. And and because it was your
• 24:30
  attitude that that got these guys into saying, hey, David's
• 24:34
  got it was your attitude. I'm leading first.
• 24:36
  You know, if there's going to be a first draw of a fist, it's
• 24:39
  going to be me out front you. These things happen to create
• 24:43
  this legend of David Carrillo in in in this area.
• 24:47
  So when, when the nightmare of this night landed on you of, of
• 24:59
  when someone dies? Yeah.
• 25:02
  Was it a moment where this was a that you guys were going to and
• 25:09
  a thing that you thought something was going to happen,
• 25:11
  or it was it a spontaneous thing that just happened?
• 25:15
  So it was portrayed in our trial as this plot, right Like that we
• 25:20
  had we had started planning it from the very beginning, but it
• 25:23
  was never a plot. It actually was a a spur of the
• 25:26
  moment thing. You know, we're walking a couple
• 25:28
  of our homies halfway home after a wild night because we've got
• 25:31
  into it with these other guys just a little bit earlier.
• 25:34
  And as we're walking our boys home, we realized that we were
• 25:39
  coming up on another boy's house that, you know, used to, you
• 25:43
  actually used to be a member of ours and then joined up with
• 25:47
  another crew and had started doing things that, you know,
• 25:52
  against us. And so when we came across this
• 25:54
  guy's house now, you know, the idea was, you know, maybe we're
• 25:57
  going to go bust his windows out and shoot his windows out.
• 26:00
  And then one thing led to another and the trigger man in
• 26:04
  my case, and another individual went to the guy's house.
• 26:08
  They went to his bedroom window, knocked on his window to see if
• 26:12
  he was there, woke him up. And as soon as they woke him up
• 26:16
  and saw that he was indeed in the room, the trigger man shot
• 26:19
  him and the bullet tore through. He shot him one time, you know,
• 26:23
  and they took off running and the, but the way that the guy
• 26:26
  was twisted as he, you know, was getting up, you know, started
• 26:30
  because it's happened at like 3:00 in the morning.
• 26:32
  And so he startled out of his sleep and the way he was
• 26:34
  contorted, the, the bullet ripped through his aorta.
• 26:38
  And at the time, the technology and everything there, there was
• 26:41
  no repairing that. So the, the kid ended up
• 26:44
  bleeding out several hours later and, and, and passed away.
• 26:47
  So it, the, the way that it happened, it, it, it helped to,
• 26:51
  again, you know, talk about legends and stuff like there's,
• 26:54
  there's a kernel of truth and legends, but most of it's been
• 26:57
  overblown through storytelling and retelling the stories.
• 27:01
  And so the way that it happened, because we didn't, you know, he
• 27:05
  was shot and killed in his own house, is it was like an
• 27:08
  assassination attempt, right? Or not even an attempt, an
• 27:10
  actual assassination. And so it was blown up that way.
• 27:13
  It's all made big news in the town.
• 27:16
  Eight of us were ultimately indicted in this case, you know,
• 27:20
  5, five of us for murder. And yeah, so yeah, it was just,
• 27:25
  it was just one of those spur of the moment.
• 27:28
  How did it all come around to, you know, when this happened
• 27:32
  that night you guys leave, How did they round you up?
• 27:37
  How you know in this moment of whenever that happened, you have
• 27:42
  moments after that? What's what happened?
• 27:46
  So, yeah, I mean, the, the, the kid heard the triggerman and,
• 27:50
  and, and named him to the, to the police.
• 27:53
  So we were already on the, the police's radar.
• 27:56
  And then the very next day, one of the, one of the boys that was
• 27:59
  with us that night turned states, you know, he turned him,
• 28:02
  he turned himself in the very next morning and, and, and in
• 28:06
  total, right, said who all was there, who was all involved.
• 28:09
  And yeah, so we were, we were immediately being sought after
• 28:13
  and looked for the triggerman especially, right.
• 28:16
  And they were trying to find the trigger man, but they didn't,
• 28:19
  they didn't arrest everybody right away, but they, they
• 28:21
  eventually arrested all of us within a matter of, you know, I
• 28:23
  think a week or two. And yeah, then, then the
• 28:26
  indictments came down and yeah, also all, all of us were
• 28:32
  ultimately charged and indicted except in, you know, the trigger
• 28:35
  man, he, he copped out to it. He said he did it right.
• 28:37
  He, he said he did it. And they, they gave him a deal
• 28:40
  for, for admitting it. And they gave him 35 years for
• 28:43
  second degree murder. But me and one of the other boys
• 28:46
  that was with us that night, we didn't cop out to anything.
• 28:49
  And so they ended up taking us to trial and convicting us both
• 28:54
  of the first degree murder and giving us both life without.
• 28:57
  But he was under 18 at the time and I was 19 at the time.
• 29:01
  And so when Miller V Alabama came out 2012, yeah, he was able
• 29:08
  to benefit that from that because Colorado had rewrote the
• 29:12
  sentencing guidelines and brought all of the the juvenile
• 29:15
  lifers back for resentencing and and they took the natural life
• 29:19
  off of his head. Wow.
• 29:21
  And when you went to trial, David, and and that verdict came
• 29:30
  down life without role. What what goes through one's
• 29:35
  mind when when you hear that, is it a blur?
• 29:38
  Are you numb? Are you what?
• 29:39
  What happens? Kind of, but you know, I mean, I
• 29:43
  already, I was already prepared for it, right?
• 29:45
  I mean, we were, we were convicted and then we came back
• 29:48
  for sentencing about a month later.
• 29:50
  So over that time, after you know, that, that, that gavel
• 29:54
  dropped of, of guilty of life, you know, of, of murder in the
• 29:57
  first degree, I already knew what the sentence was going to
• 30:00
  be. Because in Colorado there was
• 30:02
  only two options, right? And at the time in Colorado, if
• 30:05
  you're an adult, you were convicted of first degree
• 30:08
  murder. You were either given the death
• 30:10
  penalty or life without the possibility of parole.
• 30:12
  There was no graduation there. There was no 40 to life, no 20
• 30:16
  to life. No, no.
• 30:18
  There were no other options other than natural life or
• 30:22
  death. And so since they weren't
• 30:23
  pursuing the death penalty against us, the only sentence I
• 30:26
  was going to receive a month later was going to be life
• 30:29
  without the possibility. So and I say we knew this.
• 30:31
  We were able to prepare and I I try to put my family, you know,
• 30:36
  I noticed that hey. This is what?
• 30:38
  We're going to get. And it's still when we go in
• 30:41
  there and the judge reads off the sentences and our, you know,
• 30:43
  the families start to cry. And it's just like, you know,
• 30:46
  we're not trying to hear you cry.
• 30:47
  We're we're already dealing with this.
• 30:49
  And so that was, that was rough. It wasn't the the reading of the
• 30:53
  sentence that actually it was the reaction of the family.
• 30:57
  Yeah. Well, I guess let's take a break
• 31:02
  there because there's a, there's this whole world that happens
• 31:06
  for you from this day forward. And it's, it's quite amazing of
• 31:12
  all the different things that happened.
• 31:14
  And I, I want to, I want to touch on a lot of it, David,
• 31:17
  because how you survived in all these different levels.
• 31:20
  You went from one Level 3 to A4 to A5 and then back to a four
• 31:24
  and then back to five. It was that's unbelievable how
• 31:28
  you did this. So let's take a break.
• 31:32
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  its.co listeners. A Nightmare Success could take
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  And the Nightmare Success podcast is sponsored by the
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• 32:08
  devoted to people navigating the white collar criminal justice
• 32:11
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• 32:29
  OK, David, now a whole nother life starts for you.
• 32:32
  You've made it to this point, which when you're reading the
• 32:36
  book, you're like, I can't believe you made it here.
• 32:39
  And now you're sentenced to life to go to prison.
• 32:43
  Walk us through what happens. Yeah, yeah.
• 32:46
  I mean, I, I have a life sentence.
• 32:49
  I know I'm coming in. I'm so I'm still a young skinny
• 32:52
  kid, you know, of course, at this time I, I kind of, in my
• 32:55
  minds eye, I'm, I'm 7 foot tall, £500, right?
• 32:58
  And so I'm coming into this system ready to make a name for
• 33:00
  myself. And I, I already had an idea of
• 33:04
  what I was supposed to do right? You know, from McLaren Hall all
• 33:06
  the way on up. I've I've already been
• 33:09
  conditioned. Right, all groomed like 11.
• 33:11
  Years old, been groomed since I was a little kid all the war
• 33:14
  stories pops used to tell me. And then now here I am making my
• 33:17
  own journey through just in and out of juvenile detention
• 33:20
  centers and stuff all all around the place.
• 33:24
  And so I walk in and I remember I, I touched on my first yard I
• 33:28
  touched down on is, is Buena Vista, Buena Vista Correctional
• 33:31
  Facility, which at the time was referred to as gladiator school.
• 33:34
  That was, that was our version of gladiator school here in
• 33:36
  Colorado. And it had that reputation
• 33:38
  because Once Upon a time it, it used to be a reformatory.
• 33:41
  It was actually a juvenile facility and then they converted
• 33:44
  it into a, a prison system in the, in the 70s.
• 33:48
  After they converted it to a prison, they still kept the
• 33:51
  younger offenders there, right, The younger inmates.
• 33:55
  And so, you know, the, the, the young kids coming in with that,
• 33:57
  that attitude and, and all that testosterone and just, you know,
• 34:00
  looking to make a name for themselves and then and not be
• 34:03
  victimized. It did that helps to fuel that,
• 34:06
  that, that violence. And so I'm, I'm hearing all
• 34:10
  these stories about Muni and they tell me I'm going to Buni
• 34:12
  and I'm like, oh, that's great. So I get there.
• 34:15
  It's what they. Call Buena Vista by the way,
• 34:16
  Buni. Yeah, Buny.
• 34:18
  Yeah. And so I, I get to Buny and
• 34:23
  they, they said they send me to my cell.
• 34:25
  And I remember going in there and, you know, the top bunks,
• 34:29
  the my Sally, he's at work, so he's not even there yet.
• 34:32
  And his stuff's all laid out. And so I'm like, all right, I
• 34:35
  got to show respect. I understand the idea of
• 34:37
  respect. So I put all my stuff up.
• 34:39
  I don't make anything. I don't touch anything.
• 34:41
  Plus I put my stuff up on my bunk because I'm, I'm waiting
• 34:43
  for the heart check. Right.
• 34:45
  And why, why unpack if I'm just going to be taken to sag right
• 34:48
  away for for a fight as soon as I touchdown?
• 34:50
  So I put my stuff on the bunk, wait for my salad to come and I
• 34:54
  step on the tear and I'm just I'm, I'm, I'm waiting, I'm I'm
• 34:57
  ready, I'm I'm ready for the heart check.
• 35:00
  But by this time, I'm kind of actually already known most of
• 35:05
  the dudes that were there in Bunny at the time.
• 35:07
  Again, like I said, these were all the youngsters.
• 35:09
  So these were actually a lot of the guys were in lookout with
• 35:12
  me. So we already knew each other
• 35:15
  and and what we were about. There was no need for a heart.
• 35:18
  You've aged. You've aged into a real prison.
• 35:20
  Yeah, I've kind of aged into this.
• 35:23
  So it, it wasn't I, I didn't have to worry about that.
• 35:26
  But there were a lot of those old and, and I don't know other
• 35:29
  systems, but we referred to them as either canines or sharks,
• 35:33
  right? The, the, the canines or the
• 35:34
  sharks, those predators that like to, to try to take
• 35:37
  advantage of them young boys. So now I got to be mindful of
• 35:40
  these dudes, right? And so I start to prep myself
• 35:45
  for what's to come. I, I get a bunch of the
• 35:48
  youngsters together that I knew from lookout.
• 35:50
  We kind of start to band together because Colorado at the
• 35:52
  time wasn't really. There were some gangs, but it
• 35:55
  wasn't as it. Wasn't like California.
• 36:01
  Yeah, no, it definitely wasn't like it still isn't, but it's
• 36:04
  it's evolved, right? It's way more political than it
• 36:07
  was when I first went in as far as the gangs are concerned, like
• 36:10
  the politics, prison Paul, racial politics, racial lines,
• 36:12
  respect, stuff like that. That's a given no matter where
• 36:15
  you go. But the the the the structure,
• 36:17
  right, the structure of the gangs and how they kind of
• 36:21
  control certain elements within the prisons that that hadn't
• 36:24
  really evolved yet. And so I kind of had a fresh,
• 36:31
  you know, yard. I had this brand new area that
• 36:33
  hadn't been dominated. And so I began to organize these
• 36:36
  guys and, you know, put us, put us together so we can stand up
• 36:40
  against these older potential canines, right.
• 36:43
  I, I hadn't really had any issues with them, but you didn't
• 36:46
  want any. I didn't want any.
• 36:48
  So I'm strategizing. I'm already thinking what I'm
• 36:50
  going to do. And I remember one of my
• 36:52
  homeboys from the streets was was there he was in a different
• 36:55
  unit and I had sent word out to him to hook me up with the
• 36:59
  blade, right. And I write about the story in
• 37:02
  the book. And so I go go to the yard and
• 37:04
  where it was weird in Buny when I first pulled up and they Buny
• 37:07
  doesn't look like this anymore. But when I pulled up in Buny in
• 37:09
  the early 90s, it was like walking out onto a City Park.
• 37:13
  It was weird and I had never been to a prison before, but I
• 37:16
  knew this wasn't right. This trees out.
• 37:18
  This wasn't normal. Yeah, there's trees out there.
• 37:21
  Looked like I was walking into a City Park and but, but it, but
• 37:24
  it was a, it was a dangerous yard at the time.
• 37:26
  Nonetheless, even though it looked like it was this nice
• 37:28
  soft little camp, it was, it wasn't at all.
• 37:31
  And so we had this little tree by the handball courts where we
• 37:34
  would hang out at. And I'm playing handball.
• 37:36
  My partner, he my homeboy comes and he puts the blade up there
• 37:39
  in the in on this tree branch for me.
• 37:41
  And they call the yard in. And as they call the yard in,
• 37:44
  you know, my homeboy lets me know, hey, that blade's right
• 37:46
  there. So I reach up and I, I pull down
• 37:48
  this blade and it's a freaking almost sword, 3 foot harbor
• 37:52
  glass sword. I kid you not, it was, it was
• 37:53
  this freak. So I had my jacket with me and
• 37:56
  I'm like, man, what the hell am I supposed to do with this?
• 37:58
  But you know, what am I going to do?
• 37:59
  Leave it there? So I, I, I stick it in my sleeve
• 38:02
  and, and I'm walking into the yard, back into the, to the
• 38:05
  facility and my, my arms locked in right, because like I can't
• 38:08
  bend my, because I got this sword jammed out in my, in my
• 38:13
  sleeve and I'm taking it back into the facility.
• 38:16
  I, I, I had this, the one of the bricks in my sow was loose and I
• 38:20
  was able to hide the blade in the, the hollow of those, those
• 38:25
  little center blocks, right. And yeah.
• 38:27
  So I got to get that stashed in and I, I, I end up finding them
• 38:30
  working in the laundry and I find this nice little piece of
• 38:33
  steel rod and I give me an ice pick.
• 38:35
  So now I got me a more manageable blade, right?
• 38:37
  This, this nice little ice picks, nice steel rod.
• 38:41
  And I'm just prepping myself. I'm preparing myself for the
• 38:43
  war. But as I'm, as I'm organizing,
• 38:45
  as I'm prepping, you know, they're watching, right?
• 38:48
  They're, they're always watching.
• 38:49
  So the, the staff are taking notice of me.
• 38:52
  And when the life sentence was handed down, because I actually,
• 38:55
  I went in with a 10 year sentence for another attempting
• 38:57
  case. And so I'm still fighting the
• 39:00
  murder case. I go back, I get convicted, they
• 39:02
  give me life. I come back and they're, they're
• 39:07
  not wanting me on this yard. So they, they hit me with this
• 39:09
  little bogus write up, use this as a catalyst to give me a
• 39:13
  reclassification. And so when they reclass me,
• 39:16
  they they get my points. When they did the write up, I
• 39:20
  thought that the write up was that you were leaning on
• 39:22
  somebody's cell. Yeah.
• 39:23
  OK, I was leaning. I was leaning on somebody's
• 39:25
  Saldor. They tried to say that I was,
• 39:27
  you know, because you weren't supposed to.
• 39:28
  What they called salvisit, right?
• 39:30
  But this is something just, I mean for this inside prison talk
• 39:33
  here, just two ex convicts, but that's not a big deal almost 99%
• 39:40
  of the time. Somebody wanted you to write you
• 39:43
  up about something. Somebody want Yeah, and and
• 39:45
  that's exactly what it is, right.
• 39:46
  You know then and when I talk to the guys that are on the other
• 39:49
  side, they they laugh at that right up because it's it was so
• 39:51
  stupid. But you know how CE OS are when
• 39:53
  they want. To write to you.
• 39:55
  So here I am, leaning on my partner's door, watching his TV
• 39:59
  from from outside of his cell and the cop writes me up, right?
• 40:02
  The CEO writes me up. They they send me the seg and.
• 40:07
  Have a reclassification hearing on me and what they call it in
• 40:10
  Colorado is is is a hold close right they're sending me up to
• 40:14
  a. SEG for you is is the whole for
• 40:17
  those. Listen now the Cayman Islands,
• 40:19
  this is this SEG whole shoe. It's not good.
• 40:24
  Yeah, yeah, yeah. And then ad seg that's that's
• 40:27
  shoe right special. Yeah.
• 40:29
  So, yeah, so I'm there. They, they, they reclassify me
• 40:34
  and, and at the time, if you had a life sentence, you, you got an
• 40:38
  automatic 50 points, which puts you to close custody level,
• 40:42
  right? It was just, they just capped it
• 40:43
  at that. That's because they didn't need
• 40:45
  to go any higher. It would automatically close you
• 40:47
  out and, and, and you're stuck on a, on a level 4 yard.
• 40:51
  Well, they wanted to ensure because they do have overrides,
• 40:54
  right? Like you could, you could still
• 40:55
  stay on a Level 3 yard as a level 4 individual with an
• 40:59
  override. They wanted to ensure that they
• 41:01
  weren't keeping me there. So they set me a fake PED date
• 41:04
  and give me a point for every per year to my PED, which gave
• 41:08
  me 1024 points because they set my PED date at January 15th,
• 41:12
  3004. I'll never forget that date,
• 41:15
  right? Because I thought that was so
• 41:16
  comical. And yeah, it gave me 1024
• 41:19
  points. And then their little comment
• 41:21
  section talked about how I was my my violent history and my
• 41:25
  violent potential. I was inappropriate for the
• 41:29
  point of his depressional facility.
• 41:31
  In other words, I was too violent for gladiator school.
• 41:34
  I thought that was. Well, that kind of made your
• 41:35
  head grow a little bit. You're like.
• 41:37
  Oh, yeah, no. And, and that's what it did.
• 41:39
  And I talked to people about that, you know, for all the
• 41:40
  times that they were trying to scare me straight, maybe, if you
• 41:44
  will, all they were really doing was pumping my head up, right
• 41:46
  and making me, making me feel more not I got a fit into this,
• 41:50
  to this mold, you know, And so they, they send me off to
• 41:54
  Centennial Correctional Facility in Colorado, which was our level
• 41:56
  4 yard. And here's where all the all the
• 41:58
  old timers and and and and certifieds were, right?
• 42:02
  Everybody was about it on this yard.
• 42:04
  And so here I am. I'm coming in 20 years old, just
• 42:07
  this young kid, still skinny, still don't even have my man
• 42:10
  weight yet. Which I want to point out that
• 42:11
  you were only at that other prison for like 6 months to a
• 42:14
  little under a year or so. Yeah, you're already on a new.
• 42:17
  You're already on a new yard. Yeah, I mean, I'm, I was
• 42:20
  actually only in Buena Vista, I think maybe four months.
• 42:23
  So first like September to to January and, and I'm on my way
• 42:26
  to Centennial. And then I get to Centennial and
• 42:28
  I start bringing in drugs. I'm I'm getting involved with a
• 42:30
  little bit more clout. My name is starting to spread
• 42:33
  through the the prison system even further now.
• 42:36
  And it's not long, like maybe six months at Centennial where I
• 42:41
  have this confrontation with this dude, right.
• 42:44
  And something said that can't be taken back.
• 42:47
  Now I got to go and get a blade. I go get me this 9 inch Bone
• 42:49
  Crusher and my mind is my my mind sets lock.
• 42:52
  You know, he's either going to kill me or I'm going to kill
• 42:54
  him. But one thing's for sure,
• 42:56
  something's going to happen, right?
• 42:57
  We're we're we're going to handle this.
• 42:59
  And so waiting for the doors to crack in the morning so I could
• 43:02
  make my move, all of a sudden here comes security bum rushing
• 43:05
  my cell. Beeline in it for me, catch me.
• 43:08
  You know, there's there's nothing I can do.
• 43:10
  So they bust me with that 9 inch Bone Crusher, write me up and
• 43:15
  have an ad say hearing for me. Which is probably when I, when I
• 43:19
  was reading that, David, I was thinking you might have been
• 43:22
  saved from that moment because you could have done something
• 43:26
  really, you know, there was one person was going to come out of
• 43:30
  that probably alive. And and so that you get, you get
• 43:34
  rushed out of there and then what happens?
• 43:37
  Yeah, yeah. No, you're absolutely right.
• 43:39
  I mean, I, I'm, I'm glad I didn't have to.
• 43:42
  You know, looking back on it now, obviously I'm glad security
• 43:44
  did come and get me. But at the time it was like, you
• 43:47
  know, somebody snitched on me and I'm pissed off now, sitting
• 43:51
  and saying. Let it sit.
• 43:52
  Can't let it. Sit people know about it.
• 43:55
  Yeah, everybody now, you know, so all you know, things are
• 43:58
  happening and sure enough they add Segme and off to CSPI go now
• 44:02
  CSP level 5 now we're talking maximum security, solitary
• 44:05
  confinement. And in Colorado, you know,
• 44:08
  unlike California where they double those guys up, you know,
• 44:11
  you don't have a Sally in in Colorado, it's just you in that
• 44:14
  cold concrete tomb by. Yourself and no sunlight.
• 44:18
  This is the part of the, this is the part of the book that really
• 44:21
  took my breath away because when I got home from prison, there
• 44:25
  was ATV series on, and I can't remember the name of it right
• 44:28
  now, but it was like what you're talking about, David.
• 44:31
  The, the guys were in white cells, all concrete.
• 44:36
  They could, they could hear each other.
• 44:39
  I think they could talk, hear each other through the walls,
• 44:42
  but there was no sunlight and they never left.
• 44:45
  It was, you know, and like you said it, this was supposed to be
• 44:48
  23 hours a day. But as you describe it, it was
• 44:50
  much more than. It, it was more yeah, because
• 44:53
  they're because we only got showers in in day hall five
• 44:57
  times out of the week, right. And then if, if anything
• 45:00
  happened anywhere, like somebody decides they're going to go off
• 45:02
  in another pod, make them do a cell extraction.
• 45:05
  We, we lost out on the ability to move even though we were
• 45:08
  slammed. Out you weren't there just for a
• 45:09
  few days. You were in there for a few
• 45:10
  years and and what what I what I wanted to ask you about after
• 45:15
  reading this, because I feel really lucky that very rarely
• 45:19
  you get to read the book and then actually talk to the author
• 45:22
  the next day. But when you're in there
• 45:26
  because, you know, things were more familiar to you when you
• 45:29
  were Buena Vista, you know, and he had the nice yard.
• 45:32
  It was, you know, gladiator school.
• 45:33
  So it's dangerous and the other place was dangerous, but you
• 45:36
  were kind of making your way. You get into this place and this
• 45:39
  isn't something that you're familiar with mindset wise, how
• 45:45
  do you survive it? Like what do you do?
• 45:50
  Yeah, I mean this is where, you know, routine start to become
• 45:54
  very, very critical, you know, reading, working out.
• 45:57
  You know, you have we we were, we were able to have TV's in
• 46:00
  there. So, you know, you had your
• 46:01
  certain shows, but yeah, you, you, you developed a routine
• 46:04
  real quick. I learned real fast.
• 46:06
  You know, you'd wake up in the morning and to avoid laying down
• 46:08
  all day long, you would fold your, your mattress up, your
• 46:11
  bunk up into, into like a, a chair or a couch, right?
• 46:16
  Or, you know, we'd use the, we'd use the mattress as a, as, as a
• 46:19
  curling, you know, we'd tie the sheets in a certain way to be
• 46:22
  able to use it to, to exercise with.
• 46:25
  I mean, there was a lot of different things, a lot of
• 46:27
  different routines and tricks that we would use inside those
• 46:31
  cells to try to. Yeah, and the routine is all day
• 46:35
  long because you're not going anywhere.
• 46:37
  They're bringing you the food. I mean, you're not going
• 46:40
  anywhere. You ain't going anywhere, right?
• 46:43
  And even even when you did get recreation time, it was nothing
• 46:45
  more than another cell on the same tier you were at with the
• 46:48
  pull up bar in it that that's all it was.
• 46:50
  And how big would this cell have been that you were locked into
• 46:52
  for 24 hours? It was yeah, it was, I mean,
• 46:57
  obviously none of them cells are big, but comparatively it was
• 47:01
  actually the biggest cell I've ever been in.
• 47:03
  Yeah, it was bigger. It is beauty cells were small
• 47:06
  and we were double bumped. I mean, those cells were tiny,
• 47:08
  tiny Centennial cells were were fair.
• 47:11
  But again, it was single cells. So it it it's person so much
• 47:15
  bigger. And then CSPCSP cells were
• 47:18
  bigger than that and but again, they weren't really all that
• 47:21
  big, you know, but they. Well, I mean, you're spending
• 47:23
  the whole day in there. Yeah, the whole day, you know, I
• 47:26
  mean, so I had a, a, a lot of pacing sessions, you know, from
• 47:30
  from the bunk to the to the door, you know, and it was, it
• 47:33
  was a few steps. So you know, at least it there
• 47:35
  was a few steps worth of of of leg room to pace back and forth.
• 47:43
  And and then not having, not having sunlight, you know, you
• 47:47
  talk about being released from there.
• 47:50
  And I've tried to remember, David, how you were released
• 47:52
  from there. What caused your release to go
• 47:55
  back? I don't know.
• 47:57
  Was it back to Centennial? No, I went, I went to Ordway the
• 48:00
  second, the first time, Yeah, I went to Ordway.
• 48:03
  So, you know, they had a level system, you know, so the, the
• 48:07
  way that in in Colorado system, you know, I, I, I don't know how
• 48:10
  other states have their own things.
• 48:12
  Some people get trapped forever. But in Colorado they had like
• 48:15
  this level system. And so as long as you were
• 48:17
  programming and going through the level system, you could
• 48:20
  eventually face a board where they would review your, review
• 48:26
  you and determine whether or not it's almost, it was almost like
• 48:30
  a parole board, right? A a prison parole board.
• 48:32
  Where they would level. You up, Yeah, you level up.
• 48:36
  You once you once you make it to Level 3, then after Level 3 for
• 48:39
  so long, then you become eligible for this reclasses
• 48:42
  review. And so I I had made it up there.
• 48:44
  Right, I made it. And how many years did it been
• 48:46
  that you'd been locked in the solitary cell before you were
• 48:49
  able to to get released to? Go about two years.
• 48:53
  Two years. So you get released to another
• 48:56
  prison that you haven't been to, right?
• 48:59
  What? What happens there?
• 49:01
  Well man, by the time I get there, you know I've I've got a
• 49:03
  reputation already flowing through.
• 49:04
  So I, I touched the little yard and guys already had heard about
• 49:09
  me or knew me. I'm on pale as all could be.
• 49:12
  And by this time, you know my man weighted kicked in, right.
• 49:14
  All those pull ups and push ups in CSPI went into CSP.
• 49:18
  Just imagine this if you will. I went into CSP about maybe 6
• 49:22
  foot tall, 138 lbs. I came out of CSP almost six,
• 49:27
  one £200 and so, you know, I, but I, I, I.
• 49:31
  Transformed. That might happen there.
• 49:33
  Yeah, I got. My mom waiting.
• 49:34
  Yeah. So here I am walking out pale as
• 49:36
  hell, but I'm. I'm I'm I've.
• 49:38
  Got some stuff, Is the name Kiko out in this world now?
• 49:45
  Yes and no. Like when I introduce myself to
• 49:47
  people, I introduce myself as David.
• 49:48
  But you know, so many people for so many years have have known me
• 49:51
  as Kiko. So I don't, I don't shy away
• 49:53
  from the name, but it's it, but it does it.
• 49:56
  I, I have a new reputation with it, you know, and as you read my
• 50:00
  book and, and, and people read my story, they'll see that, you
• 50:03
  know, I, I actually transformed from, from Kiko The, the, the,
• 50:07
  the, the gang member that the, you know, the, the, the, the,
• 50:10
  the city of Pueblo was petrified of that.
• 50:13
  You know, gladiator school didn't want me around.
• 50:17
  You know, I, I, I went from that Kiko to all of a sudden I'm, I'm
• 50:20
  somebody where they're asking to help build programs.
• 50:23
  Yeah. No, it's, it's, it's
• 50:24
  unbelievable. And I mean, you went from
• 50:27
  basically one of the generals or the general on the yard to
• 50:32
  mentoring men. And so, yeah, you get your, your
• 50:37
  world is 1 where you get into all kinds of stuff, David.
• 50:45
  I mean, you've, you're a leader in the in the prison.
• 50:49
  You're a respected man in the prison.
• 50:52
  You got a bunch of loyal people that are part of where you are
• 50:56
  all together. Then you get into this whole
• 51:01
  thing where of narcotics and that type of thing because and
• 51:05
  you're not a drug guy. I mean, that was what was
• 51:10
  interesting about your story is that you, you would sell drugs
• 51:12
  or do whatever, but you you weren't really taking drugs.
• 51:16
  But then you had not until about 1999.
• 51:18
  Yeah. And, and then that kind of that
• 51:21
  kind of turned and you were having drugs brought in which I
• 51:27
  was reading that thinking, I mean, you could die doing what
• 51:31
  you did, putting those balloons in and swallowing them down and
• 51:36
  yeah, and throwing it up. And, and I, I, I think I
• 51:40
  remember there was someone that died that was in and, and he
• 51:44
  just collapsed and was over, but.
• 51:47
  Yeah, I actually knew a few guys that had done that.
• 51:49
  You know, they swallowed the balloons and the balloons burst
• 51:51
  into their stomach. And that was it.
• 51:52
  They passed away. Yeah, Yeah.
• 51:54
  So when all that started for you when you were you're get you're
• 51:58
  the guy now. And it's interesting because I
• 52:02
  and, and I and I had Sean Miller on the show Wednesday and you
• 52:05
  guys were Sally's for 13 years. And it kind of reminded me of
• 52:11
  Sean and David and then Brent and Romo, because Romo was my
• 52:16
  first bunkie when I got to Leavenworth.
• 52:19
  And, you know, there was something that happened between
• 52:23
  he and I that just, he, he just, I guess he just wanted to help
• 52:27
  me. I, I, I, I, I, he just knew that
• 52:29
  I didn't know what the hell I was doing.
• 52:32
  And he just looked at me and said, you've never been here
• 52:33
  before. He said, man, we got to help you
• 52:35
  out. And he immediately started to
• 52:37
  help me with, you know, making my bed military style.
• 52:41
  He opened up the locker and said, man, we got to get this
• 52:43
  cleaned out. Don't put anything in it.
• 52:45
  He introduced me to a guy to help me get a job.
• 52:47
  So, you know, that's another thing about, you know, he was a
• 52:52
  Texas homeboy guy that had leveled down from Beaumont.
• 52:56
  And so that was kind of like a gladiator school type deal.
• 53:00
  And, and he was trying to get better.
• 53:01
  You know, he was he, he, he didn't want the violence part of
• 53:04
  it. But that's one of the things too
• 53:08
  that happens in prison is guys that have been around for a
• 53:10
  while and know the lay of the land.
• 53:12
  They will take somebody under their arms and knows that
• 53:14
  they're not quite. And, and, and you kind of looked
• 53:16
  out for this one guy that did a stupid thing.
• 53:20
  He spit in somebody's food and and you went.
• 53:24
  Not somebody's a whole group of people's food a whole.
• 53:26
  Group of people's food that was He was going to die.
• 53:31
  And because of who you were and the respect that you had, you
• 53:34
  went to them and said, listen, you know, I think we can do
• 53:39
  something, you know, basically a diplomatic outreach that was,
• 53:43
  you know, you can beat the crap out of him, but don't kill him.
• 53:46
  Yeah, you know that. And that's that's your politics.
• 53:48
  You know, again, that that goes everywhere.
• 53:50
  You know, those with the influence we try to, we try to
• 53:53
  mitigate the, the we actually honestly the, the violence,
• 53:57
  right? We try to mitigate madness that
• 53:59
  goes on on the yards because you know, if, if you have non-stop
• 54:04
  madness going on on the yards and we're constant being
• 54:07
  constantly being locked down and we're constantly being shaken
• 54:10
  down, well, nothing, We, we can't do anything right.
• 54:12
  Quality of life goes down. So those who've been around and
• 54:16
  have the influence, they got the cooler heads and they understand
• 54:19
  what the consequences are of if we let something get too far.
• 54:22
  Now, sometimes there's those things where it, it, it's going
• 54:24
  to happen right there. There's no ifs, ands or buts
• 54:27
  about it. It it things are going to go
• 54:28
  wild and we're all just going. To well, and, and one of the
• 54:31
  things that is probably the main primary thing is respect in
• 54:36
  prison, you know, I don't care what level you're at.
• 54:39
  Yeah. The respect thing is, is I mean,
• 54:43
  I, I kind of think if we had that on the outside the way it
• 54:46
  is on the inside. Yeah, you hear that, A.
• 54:49
  Lot, yeah, that, that, that you can get a lot of different
• 54:53
  twists and turns. Yeah, yeah.
• 54:55
  My poor little buddy though, man, he was a cool little kid,
• 54:59
  you know, he, he looked. Out for him, he basically saved
• 55:02
  his life. Yeah, I did know.
• 55:04
  Yeah. They're they were going to kill
• 55:05
  him. He, he, he was done and nobody
• 55:07
  else was standing up for him. And it was a dumb mistake.
• 55:10
  He lets, he let this clown influence in him just for
• 55:13
  entertainment, just for entertainment.
• 55:16
  And it was, it was one of those things again, like I, I'm not
• 55:18
  even, I'm not, I'm not trying to overhype this.
• 55:20
  This was one of those things that would cost somebody their
• 55:23
  lives in prison and man. So I went to the I went to the
• 55:27
  fellas and I and I talked to him, you know, and I told him I
• 55:30
  said, look, man, I First off, I, I ain't if they're going to get
• 55:32
  him, I'm not I'm not gonna stop him from getting, you know,
• 55:34
  because I can't, I can't, you can't justify what he right.
• 55:39
  And so all I could really do was do was utilize my influence to
• 55:44
  kind of plead with well, the other.
• 55:45
  Thing too David is they saw it wasn't only that he spit their
• 55:48
  food, people saw that he did it. They saw it.
• 55:50
  Yeah, they saw it, you know, and this is this is, this was a
• 55:53
  religious meal. And so you, you, you can't do
• 55:56
  that, right? And and so, you know, I go to
• 56:00
  him and I asked him, I said, hey, man, look, he's young kid,
• 56:03
  he's stupid. You know, he deserves
• 56:05
  consequence. First off, he deserves
• 56:06
  consequence because if I was in their shoes, I, I know what I
• 56:09
  would want to do the kid, right, Right.
• 56:10
  And so I'm like, now just, if you would just send your, your,
• 56:14
  your hitter in, right? Send one of your heavy hitters
• 56:16
  in and, and, and put a whooping on this kid.
• 56:18
  And Oh my God, that they did too.
• 56:20
  They, they agreed to it. They sent in this monster on
• 56:22
  this kid and this dude offered up an ass whooping for this guy,
• 56:27
  unlike he's probably ever had in his entire life.
• 56:30
  And yeah, no, he didn't die, but he, he had to stay in that cell
• 56:35
  for a couple weeks to recuperate from the from the beating that
• 56:39
  he took. But he didn't die, you know?
• 56:41
  And he he's the kids still my friend to this day.
• 56:43
  You know, he's out. He's doing good.
• 56:46
  Yeah. He's he's a good kid.
• 56:48
  Let's let's step into the next chapter of this transformation
• 56:52
  thing that starts to happen because I think you, I think
• 56:56
  part of what happened, David, is you started reading some things
• 57:00
  that started to kind of resonate with you.
• 57:03
  You know, the seven habits of highly effective people was
• 57:07
  something that really became a big part of your life.
• 57:10
  You not only for you, but then as it went on, you begin to
• 57:13
  teach it. Then it became a part of the
• 57:15
  rhythm and flow of how you lived your life.
• 57:19
  So you kind of lead us into, we know it didn't happen all at
• 57:23
  once, but how did it start to happen?
• 57:26
  Yeah. So, you know, I mean, I remember
• 57:28
  I was sitting in CSP at SIG for the third time, right.
• 57:31
  I've actually been at SIG multiple times.
• 57:33
  So I'm sitting in CSP for the third time and I, I remember one
• 57:37
  night I was hungry and so I holler up to a friend of mine
• 57:40
  and I asked him if he had something to eat.
• 57:42
  Now I'm on the bottom tier, he's up on the top tier and he says,
• 57:45
  yeah, 'cause you know, the pods or 16 man pods 8, you know,
• 57:48
  16,008 thousand on the bottom tier, 8000 in the top tier, kind
• 57:52
  of like AV shaped tier system. And so he's like, yeah, man, he
• 57:57
  goes send out the line. So you know the fishing line of,
• 58:00
  you know, the audience, your audience probably all know what
• 58:02
  a what a fishing line is, right? And so he, he, he shoots out his
• 58:06
  fishing line and I remember watching the, the, the little
• 58:09
  flattened toothpaste tube come flying off the, the top tier.
• 58:14
  And I send out my line and I snag it up and I'm pulling it in
• 58:17
  And he had crushed up this granola bar because, you know,
• 58:20
  it had, he had to smash it up. It was a, a, a chocolate chewy
• 58:24
  granola. So he he smashes this thing up
• 58:27
  and then I'm on my hands and knees and I'm pulling this thing
• 58:29
  in into my cell. And as I'm pulling it in, I kind
• 58:32
  of have this little aha moment, this realization.
• 58:35
  I'm sitting there thinking to myself, Oh my God, this is it,
• 58:37
  right? This is the best this world has
• 58:39
  to offer. This is I'm at the top of my
• 58:42
  game. I, my name is known in the
• 58:44
  system at the time, you know, and in Colorado, you know, I'm
• 58:46
  not, I'm not nationwide or anything like that, but in my
• 58:49
  area, I'm not, you know, and, and this is it.
• 58:51
  This is the, the pinnacle of this, of this existence, because
• 58:54
  everybody who was about it, this is where they were at, right?
• 58:57
  All that, all the dudes that were putting in the real dirt,
• 59:00
  they were in AD, they were slammed down 24/7.
• 59:04
  And I'm like, man, this is it. Not only is this it for me, but
• 59:08
  I started to think about this is the best that I have to offer my
• 59:12
  people, right? All the people I profess to
• 59:14
  love, everybody I care about, this is the legacy I have for
• 59:17
  them. And if if you ain't in one of
• 59:19
  these boxes with me, then you really aren't 100% about this
• 59:24
  life, right? And that didn't sit right with
• 59:27
  me that, that, that was a, a moral dilemma that hit this
• 59:30
  switch inside my head that I, I couldn't shake off.
• 59:34
  And so I'm sitting there thinking about that, you know, I
• 59:36
  got get this granola bar and I'm eating my granola bar and I'm,
• 59:39
  I'm pondering the whole event and how, how sad this is that
• 59:42
  here I am on top of my game and I'm having, and it wasn't that I
• 59:45
  didn't have money is that you can only order like $20 worth of
• 59:49
  canteen in AD seg. So I ran out of food.
• 59:52
  So, so far as powerful was thought as I as I thought I was,
• 59:56
  I couldn't even walk to the store to get me something to eat
• 59:59
  when I was hungry, you know? And so this is this is it.
• 1:00:03
  And I'm like, man, but I started to think too, OK, something's
• 1:00:08
  got to give. Something's got to change here.
• 1:00:09
  But what, what do I change to right?
• 1:00:13
  What? What do I change?
• 1:00:13
  My whole frame of reference, my whole life, my whole existence,
• 1:00:16
  except for that one really good man that I mentioned earlier,
• 1:00:19
  John Solis. What was this right?
• 1:00:22
  All my idols, everybody I looked up to and aspired to be by this
• 1:00:25
  point, were buried inside of one of these concrete tombs right
• 1:00:28
  along with me. So what do I change to and how?
• 1:00:32
  How do you change right? How do you change when the only
• 1:00:35
  world you ever known since you was a little boy, your your dad
• 1:00:38
  giving you war stories and tips on how to survive prison?
• 1:00:43
  How do you change, right? Because this is, this is all
• 1:00:46
  I've ever done since I was 11 years old and then foster homes
• 1:00:48
  from the very first time, all the way up through juvenile to
• 1:00:50
  Lookout Mountain and then straight to the penitentiary.
• 1:00:54
  How do you, how do you change? And, and then why change, right?
• 1:00:57
  Why, why change? I'm doing life without the
• 1:01:00
  possibility of parole at this point.
• 1:01:03
  If I change, what changes, right?
• 1:01:05
  What, what changes? And so these are, these are the
• 1:01:07
  questions that are in my head, but I can't get past the fact
• 1:01:11
  that the only thing I have to offer all the people I claim to
• 1:01:14
  love, all the defense of everything, this, this so-called
• 1:01:16
  cause. The only thing I had to give was
• 1:01:18
  one of these was one of these boxes, one of these tombs that,
• 1:01:23
  that was a throne I had to leave behind.
• 1:01:25
  And I, I couldn't sit with that. And so I struggled with that and
• 1:01:28
  I end up in, I end up in territorial, the Colorado
• 1:01:31
  territorial Correctional Facility, where an individual
• 1:01:35
  tells me about the seven habits. He says, man, you need to take
• 1:01:37
  this, this course. And so I sign up for seven
• 1:01:41
  habits and there, there's this road map for me, you know, I
• 1:01:45
  mean, there's, there, there's this road map of the, of the,
• 1:01:48
  the, the how right, how to change.
• 1:01:51
  Here we are, we're, we're talking about paradigms and
• 1:01:54
  principles. You know, you, your paradigms
• 1:01:57
  are the patterns you expect to see how you, how you see the
• 1:01:59
  world. It was like, wow, you know, OK,
• 1:02:03
  my mindset here's, here's this mindset that's got me kind of
• 1:02:06
  twisted up. You know, I, I think I have a
• 1:02:08
  good vision of the world because I cared about my friends.
• 1:02:12
  I cared about my people. And so, but my mental map was
• 1:02:15
  telling me in order to be able to gain status and, and protect
• 1:02:18
  your people and to, to provide for your people was through this
• 1:02:23
  violence, right through the, through, through drugs and
• 1:02:25
  through violence. And I'm like, OK, I need to
• 1:02:27
  shift my paradigm on how I, I see how we're supposed to do
• 1:02:30
  this. What does, what does love really
• 1:02:32
  look like? What does love really mean?
• 1:02:33
  Right? What, what is respect?
• 1:02:35
  What does that word respect actually mean?
• 1:02:37
  How is my paradigm of the word respect versus what respect is
• 1:02:41
  actually supposed to be about? So I started to challenge those
• 1:02:44
  paradigms. Then you get into habit one,
• 1:02:46
  right? Be proactive.
• 1:02:47
  And in that habit, one Doctor Covey talks about the circle of
• 1:02:51
  influence and circle of concern. And in the, you know, most
• 1:02:54
  people live in the circle of concern where you have
• 1:02:57
  absolutely no control. He identifies three types of
• 1:02:59
  control, no control, direct control and indirect control.
• 1:03:03
  And as I started to really dig deep into the meaning of that,
• 1:03:06
  that, that symbol, that, that, that analogy that it puts out
• 1:03:09
  there with the circle of influence and circle of concern,
• 1:03:12
  I realized, man, my whole life had been this circle of concern.
• 1:03:15
  I was trying to control things that I had 0 control.
• 1:03:18
  Over, yeah. 0 control over, right, all of these political
• 1:03:21
  things that drive people in prison and talk about the
• 1:03:23
  respect, right? You, you, you can't do certain
• 1:03:26
  things, you can't be, you can't have certain things of values or
• 1:03:29
  anything like that because you're wrong Now and then in my
• 1:03:32
  world, especially in the gang world, now all of a sudden, if
• 1:03:34
  you're born on the opposite side of town, now I got to hate you,
• 1:03:37
  right? And this, this is something
• 1:03:38
  beyond your control. But here's this imaginary
• 1:03:40
  boundary that we drew this line in the sand.
• 1:03:43
  And if you're not on that, you're, if you're on that side
• 1:03:45
  of the land, you're wrong. And by me beating you, killing
• 1:03:48
  you or some, somehow I'm making this is right, right.
• 1:03:50
  So anyway, so I, when I, I really came to terms with the
• 1:03:54
  idea that I need to get out of that circle of concern and start
• 1:03:56
  focusing on my circle of influence, those things I did
• 1:03:59
  have control over, which was myself, how I responded to
• 1:04:02
  things, how I did things right, which is another principle Covey
• 1:04:05
  talks about stimulus versus response, right?
• 1:04:07
  And that space, that freedom to choose and exercising those for
• 1:04:10
  human endowments. I mean, oh man, this, all of
• 1:04:12
  this stuff, really it just it, it blew my mind.
• 1:04:16
  It really got with me and I'm, I, I got a road map now, you
• 1:04:18
  know, get into habit 2 begin with the end in mind and you
• 1:04:23
  start talking about legacy, right?
• 1:04:25
  Talking about legacy. I'm, I'm, I'm tripping because
• 1:04:28
  I'm thinking the only legacy I have to leave my people is that
• 1:04:32
  tune. What is my legacy?
• 1:04:34
  Who, who do I want to be? Right at the at the end of the
• 1:04:37
  day, at the at the end of my life?
• 1:04:39
  What did I want to have left behind for a legacy?
• 1:04:43
  Right for my people. And that's not, you know, that's
• 1:04:46
  not unlike anybody. You know, it just so happened
• 1:04:48
  that you were sitting in a prison cell.
• 1:04:51
  People get older and they start thinking about how am I going to
• 1:04:53
  end? And you know, it's not about
• 1:04:55
  money. It's not.
• 1:04:55
  It's what connections you were able to do or what impact were
• 1:04:59
  you able to make. What it what impact were you
• 1:05:01
  able to leave behind? That's right.
• 1:05:02
  And so I started out now, not only did it give me a road map
• 1:05:05
  for the how, but all of a sudden the what and the why started to
• 1:05:08
  take shit, right? Because I, I still care about my
• 1:05:11
  people. I, I, I still love my but what
• 1:05:14
  that idea of, of love and respect and unity, what that
• 1:05:18
  means to me now is something completely different than what
• 1:05:20
  it meant before. So like, I, I had, I let, I let
• 1:05:24
  that stuff go. And now I still, you know, as,
• 1:05:26
  as you know, we'll probably talk about here later.
• 1:05:28
  I, I still go into the prison. Oh yeah.
• 1:05:30
  You know, I, I still reach into, into those the, the field of
• 1:05:34
  work that I do now is all about affecting change, positive
• 1:05:38
  change in the investors realm, right.
• 1:05:40
  And so yeah, 7 Habits, man, that that that that program
• 1:05:43
  completely. Gave you a map, you know, at a
• 1:05:45
  time that you were looking, you were reading something that was
• 1:05:48
  a map and and it, that was a map and that's what you that's what
• 1:05:52
  you were looking for. That's right.
• 1:05:54
  But here's the thing, David, that now I know that it's a hell
• 1:06:01
  of a lot different than the camp level than it is when you're in
• 1:06:04
  a maximum security. But I do know one thing.
• 1:06:07
  When people decide that they want to change, it's not the
• 1:06:09
  easiest thing in the world to do because you only you don't go
• 1:06:12
  anywhere. You know, you have to just start
• 1:06:14
  being with different people and you have to cut ties on
• 1:06:17
  different things. How did that work for you?
• 1:06:20
  Because all of a sudden the guy that is it's, it's like, you
• 1:06:25
  know, the leader of the of all of this is all of a sudden
• 1:06:30
  saying, I don't know about that. I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I might just
• 1:06:35
  take this path instead. So how does that work?
• 1:06:38
  So, you know, and I, I think that and, and I, I think most
• 1:06:42
  people can, can agree on this, you know, some, some, some
• 1:06:45
  systems may disagree or have a different perspective.
• 1:06:51
  But so when when I got out of CSP that last time, they they
• 1:06:55
  actually sent me back to beauty right there.
• 1:06:57
  All the way back to where you began.
• 1:06:59
  And so I'm, I'm struggling, right, because this wasn't just
• 1:07:01
  some linear thing. I I went through years of of of
• 1:07:04
  of dealing with. And I think let's, let's, let's
• 1:07:06
  give it some time to this. So this would be at this time,
• 1:07:11
  you've gone all the way through the system and you've built this
• 1:07:14
  big name up for yourself. Everybody knows who who David
• 1:07:17
  is. Now you're back at Buena Vista.
• 1:07:21
  How many years have gone by now? Oh, so yeah, I'd, I'd already
• 1:07:26
  been in the system by this time, what, over 10 years?
• 1:07:31
  So I'm in buny. It's, it's it's 2004.
• 1:07:35
  I get there and I, I immediately get back involved in everything.
• 1:07:40
  You know, I'm still involved in the politics.
• 1:07:41
  I'm still calling Schnotz. I'm still doing things and but
• 1:07:45
  I'm, I'm, I'm wanting to change again.
• 1:07:47
  I just didn't know how to right? I'm also, I'm kind of winging
• 1:07:50
  it, if you will, right? I'm I'm doing what's natural and
• 1:07:53
  instinctual. To and then learning about this
• 1:07:54
  over here on the other side. Yeah, yeah.
• 1:07:56
  But then, but I'm, I'm learning about different things and, and,
• 1:07:59
  and I'm trying different things up.
• 1:08:00
  I started up a business in uni. I started having different
• 1:08:03
  conversations, right, about ideas of business instead of,
• 1:08:08
  you know, how, how can we get the doping right.
• 1:08:10
  And so I'm, I'm walking this balancing act of, of still being
• 1:08:14
  who I am because this is all I've ever known to being, trying
• 1:08:19
  to be something different, trying to find something
• 1:08:20
  different. And so I'm, I'm, I'm doing all
• 1:08:23
  of this. And I, and, and then it got to
• 1:08:25
  the point where I finally had the courage to go ahead and
• 1:08:29
  write my higher ups, right? And I, so I write, I write to my
• 1:08:32
  people and I say, hey, man, I can't do this anymore.
• 1:08:36
  I'm done. I'm, I don't want to continue to
• 1:08:38
  put somebody in a position I myself no longer want to be in,
• 1:08:41
  right? I don't want to be in prison for
• 1:08:44
  the rest of my life. So why am I going to put
• 1:08:45
  somebody in, in a position that's possibly going to get
• 1:08:48
  them a life sentence? I don't want to be an ad sig
• 1:08:50
  anymore. I don't want to keep going back
• 1:08:52
  and forth to CSP. So if I don't want to be an ad
• 1:08:54
  sig anymore segregation period, what am I going to do to why am
• 1:08:59
  I going to keep putting somebody in a position that's going to
• 1:09:01
  put them where I myself no longer wanted to be?
• 1:09:03
  I couldn't do it as a man, right as I forget all the rest of the
• 1:09:06
  stuff, right as as a man, I couldn't put another man in the
• 1:09:10
  position me myself didn't want to be.
• 1:09:13
  And remember, you know, I was the front liner.
• 1:09:16
  I was the first one to throw the punch.
• 1:09:17
  And so now if I don't want to be the one to throw the punch, I'm
• 1:09:20
  going to send somebody else to do it to me.
• 1:09:22
  That that's weak. That's that's not a man in my
• 1:09:24
  opinion. And so, so I finally get the
• 1:09:27
  balls and I, I, I write to my people and I say, hey, man, I'm,
• 1:09:30
  I'm, I need to step down. I can't do this anymore.
• 1:09:33
  I'm asking for permission. If you, if you, if you let me
• 1:09:37
  step, you know, this is what I'm doing.
• 1:09:39
  And I, and I, and I write everybody, right?
• 1:09:40
  I, I mentioned this, I, I even wrote to a couple individuals
• 1:09:43
  who I honestly didn't even respect, right?
• 1:09:45
  But they, they were supposed to be somebody.
• 1:09:49
  So just just to cover all bases, I even wrote people I didn't
• 1:09:52
  think were shit, but I, I wrote them anyways.
• 1:09:54
  And and I and I got the permission, you know, they said,
• 1:09:57
  go ahead. And then this was what I was
• 1:09:59
  starting to say earlier. Is that like even me, like when
• 1:10:02
  somebody would come to me and say, hey, you know, I'm walking
• 1:10:07
  with the Lord now or I want to do right by my family, We'd give
• 1:10:11
  them that blessing, right? Where where most people run
• 1:10:14
  afoul when they walk away from this type of stuff is it's not
• 1:10:17
  that they wanted to walk away for good reasons, right?
• 1:10:21
  It's they, they just don't want that, that label right or
• 1:10:24
  whatever. They're trying to to manipulate
• 1:10:26
  some system, but they're still doing this stuff.
• 1:10:28
  Right. They're not walking away from
• 1:10:30
  the lifestyle. They're walking away from Yeah.
• 1:10:33
  Exactly. They're walking away from the
• 1:10:35
  gang, but not the lifestyle. They're still living that
• 1:10:37
  lifestyle. So they're still getting caught
• 1:10:38
  up in debt, right? Poker deaths, store deaths, drug
• 1:10:42
  deaths. And they're they're bringing a
• 1:10:44
  bad name to the gang because like everybody's coming to the
• 1:10:46
  to the gang where this dude owes money to him is like, hey, ain't
• 1:10:49
  this your homeboy? How come?
• 1:10:50
  How come he's not paying his debts, right.
• 1:10:52
  And so that's when these dudes that walk away really get in
• 1:10:56
  trouble. That's when it it, it, it really
• 1:10:58
  gets bad for them. But for those who walked away
• 1:11:01
  from the gang for honest reasons, and they were sincere
• 1:11:05
  about it, that there there are stories around around the
• 1:11:09
  country. You've built up a lot of respect
• 1:11:11
  within the the organization with all the different prisons you're
• 1:11:15
  at. So I, I can understand if they
• 1:11:17
  would have thought, hey, David, we know David.
• 1:11:19
  If he's going this way, then whatever it is, it's important
• 1:11:23
  to him. Yeah, and it's not, it's not to
• 1:11:25
  say I didn't have, I did have some issues because, you know,
• 1:11:27
  I, I mean, I, I put in some turf myself, you know, I had some
• 1:11:31
  people that were, were pissed off at me over the years.
• 1:11:33
  And so when I, when word got out that I was starting to step, Oh
• 1:11:36
  my goodness, you know, the, the sharks started to smell that
• 1:11:39
  blood in the water. So they were swimming.
• 1:11:40
  They were, they were circling and trying to try to take it.
• 1:11:43
  So, you know, I, I had a few little hiccups when I first,
• 1:11:46
  first walked away. But as everybody started to see
• 1:11:49
  that my walk, my path was, was real, that drama began to fade
• 1:11:54
  away. Right.
• 1:11:54
  I, I stopped hearing as much of, of some of that hate that was
• 1:11:59
  being spewed by some of those people that, you know, we're,
• 1:12:02
  we're just trying to get people against me because I had Once
• 1:12:04
  Upon a time made these guys bow. Right.
• 1:12:07
  And I know that. So you, you come, you run across
• 1:12:11
  a thing where you can you can see that you can get an
• 1:12:13
  associate's degree and yeah, but you can't afford it.
• 1:12:19
  Right. And I think that at that time,
• 1:12:22
  you reach out to your sister. Yeah.
• 1:12:25
  Yeah. I was curious like when all this
• 1:12:28
  all this time was going on, were you and your sisters staying in
• 1:12:32
  touch with or did you have to reach out to her like it was out
• 1:12:35
  of nowhere and say, hey, I made a change or or were you guys in
• 1:12:39
  conversations and communications with each other?
• 1:12:42
  Yeah, no, I actually, for the most part, my my sister was my
• 1:12:46
  my sole support system when I I shouldn't say my soul, but for
• 1:12:49
  consistently right from from start to end, my sister had
• 1:12:52
  always been there for me. And you know, so I mean, she,
• 1:12:56
  she was, she was even part of one of my, how could I say, I
• 1:13:01
  don't know how the right term to use, but she was, she was like
• 1:13:04
  an inspiration for me to be able to make the change because I, I
• 1:13:07
  looked at my sister. And yeah, you told, will you
• 1:13:09
  tell this in the book Where where she she's going to the
• 1:13:11
  I'll let you tell the story. Yeah, she, I mean, you know,
• 1:13:14
  she, she experienced even more trauma than me and my brother
• 1:13:17
  did. But she endured that stuff,
• 1:13:18
  right? And then when she graduated from
• 1:13:20
  high school, instead of running away from home, instead of
• 1:13:22
  getting involved in drugs, instead of being pregnant by the
• 1:13:24
  time she was 15 years old, you know, she didn't, she didn't do
• 1:13:26
  any of that stuff. She wasn't living off of the
• 1:13:28
  state. And she, her, her escape was
• 1:13:31
  once she graduated, she went to the Navy and she got some
• 1:13:34
  training in the Navy, became quite successful and, you know,
• 1:13:39
  built a good family of her own and was, had a great job making
• 1:13:43
  a good income. And, and she was taking care of
• 1:13:46
  me. And so when I, when I decided to
• 1:13:48
  start making a change in my life and educating myself, I, I
• 1:13:50
  reached out to her and I asked her if she would be willing to
• 1:13:53
  help me with this. And that was something she was
• 1:13:55
  more than willing to help me out with, right.
• 1:13:58
  You know, I thought I asked her, you know, and I, yeah, it was a
• 1:14:01
  great kind of, you know, can I borrow some money so I can buy
• 1:14:03
  some dope? She'd probably be like, yeah,
• 1:14:05
  no, I don't have any money, right.
• 1:14:06
  But when I sent you the, the application and, and told her I
• 1:14:09
  wanted to work on my education all, she was all in 100%
• 1:14:13
  support. And so, yeah, I did.
• 1:14:14
  I, I, I, I started working on my associate's degree because at
• 1:14:17
  the time we didn't have the Pell Grants back, right?
• 1:14:19
  We got the Pell Grants back now, but we didn't have them during
• 1:14:23
  the time I was inside. They went away with the 93 crime
• 1:14:25
  bill, right. And the, the crime bills with
• 1:14:27
  the 90s. And so I, I, I start working on
• 1:14:32
  my associate's degree and I, I complete it and I get my
• 1:14:35
  associate's degree. You know, talk about pride
• 1:14:37
  earlier, you know, respect and all.
• 1:14:38
  I mean, all of a sudden I felt this, this pride that was
• 1:14:41
  something completely different and found a, after I completed
• 1:14:45
  that, there was a, another advertisement for Adams State
• 1:14:49
  University and they're offering a full bachelor's program.
• 1:14:52
  So I looked into it and I signed up for the Bachelors of science
• 1:14:57
  and business administration with an emphasis and legal studies
• 1:15:00
  and completed that. I got my bachelor's degree all
• 1:15:04
  while in prison. You know, this is helping me pay
• 1:15:05
  for it. I'm I'm earning some
• 1:15:07
  scholarships so I'm able to help pay for some of it myself
• 1:15:09
  because I've won a several scholarship awards and then.
• 1:15:13
  Which is, you know, you'd always make good grades, even when you
• 1:15:16
  were a younger kid. I mean, you had the smarts all
• 1:15:20
  along. Yeah, it wasn't.
• 1:15:21
  It was just applying it to what? Yeah, it was the application,
• 1:15:25
  right? I, I have to tell my students
• 1:15:27
  now you know, know knowledge isn't power.
• 1:15:30
  It's the application of knowledge.
• 1:15:31
  That's power, right? It's because I, I was, I was
• 1:15:35
  never a dumbly, I just didn't know what it was.
• 1:15:37
  Is I just didn't know what to do with the stuff that I, I, I
• 1:15:39
  think I knew. So yeah, I, I, I finished my
• 1:15:43
  bachelor's of science in, in business administration.
• 1:15:46
  And by this time I actually had met this attorney and I start
• 1:15:49
  doing consulting work for this attorney and I'm, I'm starting
• 1:15:52
  to make my own money now working for this, for this lawyer under
• 1:15:55
  the table, you know, but I'm still, you know, the guy was an
• 1:15:58
  amazing guy. He was an amazing mentor and it
• 1:16:01
  was fun doing work for him because I, I filed A lawsuit.
• 1:16:06
  I filed A lawsuit and he came in on the 12th hour and helped me
• 1:16:09
  to push this lawsuit forward. And he, he had seen the work
• 1:16:12
  product that I had done and was impressed with the work product
• 1:16:14
  I had done. And yeah.
• 1:16:16
  And so we, we had, yeah, because I had filed everything.
• 1:16:18
  He, he got to come through on it.
• 1:16:20
  Yeah. For all the work that I had
• 1:16:22
  done, you know, and so attorneys.
• 1:16:24
  Loved that. Yeah, yeah, it's so, yeah.
• 1:16:26
  We ended up striking up a really good friendship.
• 1:16:28
  And one thing that to another, I started to work for him.
• 1:16:30
  I started doing a research for him, right.
• 1:16:32
  He would have legal questions and I would go and spend hours
• 1:16:36
  in the law library and write a memo to him.
• 1:16:38
  And it was, it was fun too, because I would send this memo
• 1:16:40
  to him, this memorandum of, you know what, what what the results
• 1:16:44
  were I found for the legal question that he had posed to
• 1:16:46
  me. And then he would send it back
• 1:16:48
  to me with the markings of, you know, he graded my paper based
• 1:16:52
  right There was. Yeah.
• 1:16:54
  He edited if there was errors with the grammar or structure,
• 1:16:58
  you know, he was he was all over me on that.
• 1:17:00
  It's. But I loved it.
• 1:17:01
  It was, it was awesome. It helped me to become a better
• 1:17:03
  writer. And so with that, after I
• 1:17:07
  completed my bachelor's degree, I saw another article or
• 1:17:10
  advertisement for the master's degree.
• 1:17:13
  Adam State had just started to offer up a master's degree
• 1:17:16
  program through correspondence and so signed up for that, took
• 1:17:22
  the journey, earned my master's in business administration and I
• 1:17:25
  did it during COVID. I want to talk about that
• 1:17:27
  because this part of I didn't want you to skip over this
• 1:17:31
  because you, when COVID hit, it goes back to like CSP where
• 1:17:36
  you're, you're actually locked down, can't go anywhere.
• 1:17:39
  But you've got these, these things that have to be, you
• 1:17:42
  can't use a word processor, you can't go to the library and
• 1:17:45
  you're writing all this stuff out, getting it through the
• 1:17:47
  mail. I mean, the when I went to that
• 1:17:51
  chapter there, I was like, man, I don't know how David did this
• 1:17:54
  and and you did it and you and you got it and, and man, that
• 1:17:58
  had to. I can't imagine how that made
• 1:18:00
  you feel. Oh, no, it was, it was, it was
• 1:18:03
  awesome. It was amazing, right?
• 1:18:04
  It was, I was very proud, you know, and yeah, it was, you know
• 1:18:08
  what, what is it? You know, when there's will,
• 1:18:11
  there's a way, you know, I wanted to finish my master's
• 1:18:13
  degree and I, I have the time, you know, you say you don't know
• 1:18:15
  how to do it. I get it.
• 1:18:16
  But I, I mean, I, I, even though I didn't have access to the
• 1:18:19
  resources I needed to be able for like the, the, the
• 1:18:22
  references and citations, you know, APA format, full, full
• 1:18:26
  reference page with, you know, everything has to be cited
• 1:18:29
  properly. And so I would, I would like
• 1:18:31
  write out and I would ask for articles and stuff like that and
• 1:18:34
  get the articles sent in. And that's how I was able to get
• 1:18:36
  my resource information. So it took a lot, it took
• 1:18:40
  longer, right? I it took me 6 years to finish
• 1:18:42
  my MBA when it should have actually only took 2.
• 1:18:44
  Yeah, well, I I can't even but all this.
• 1:18:47
  During COVID all yeah, most of it, yeah, during.
• 1:18:50
  COVID the the other thing is it's an emotional part of the
• 1:18:53
  book too, is that, you know, they bring you all to the
• 1:18:56
  visiting room and your sister, I think your sister is there.
• 1:19:01
  No, she's not there. She's actually, no, she's not
• 1:19:03
  there. She's, she wasn't able to be
• 1:19:05
  there. She wasn't.
• 1:19:05
  Able to be there, but this this moment of, of accomplishment and
• 1:19:12
  in a prison, you know. Yeah, after the lockdowns, right
• 1:19:17
  when, when COVID ended the lockdowns, they had a a
• 1:19:20
  graduation ceremony for everybody, right?
• 1:19:22
  For all the guys who had finished their certificate
• 1:19:24
  programs. I had a little buddy who had
• 1:19:25
  actually, during COVID, he had finished his associate's degree.
• 1:19:30
  And so we, we come out and he got his associate's degree
• 1:19:33
  through Adams State, also the, the school that I had earned my
• 1:19:36
  master's from. So Adam State showed up to this
• 1:19:39
  graduation ceremony and everybody and all the guys that
• 1:19:41
  are there getting their certificates for like commuter
• 1:19:43
  computer information system, janitorial, you know, all these
• 1:19:47
  different programs and stuff, right?
• 1:19:48
  Culinary arts and all of these programs that we had, they're
• 1:19:52
  getting their certificates and there goes my little buddy up to
• 1:19:55
  get his associate's degree. And then they come up and they
• 1:19:58
  actually brought the hood in DLC.
• 1:19:59
  My, my, the facility let them bring my master's hood in.
• 1:20:02
  So they, they, they did the ceremony where they, they put
• 1:20:05
  the master's hood on me and everything.
• 1:20:06
  And I'm just, I'm so proud and I'm just swimming with emotions
• 1:20:10
  because, you know, it's just. You can feel it in the book.
• 1:20:14
  If you feel that, and I'm assuming Sean Miller, was, was
• 1:20:18
  he also doing all this? Sean was there, too.
• 1:20:21
  Sean was, yeah. He, I think he hadn't, he hadn't
• 1:20:25
  earned his associates yet, but he was, he was there for
• 1:20:28
  something else. I.
• 1:20:28
  Believe it's funny when he talks about meeting you because he
• 1:20:33
  he's this white collar guy who gets a lot of time in 14 years
• 1:20:37
  but yeah I know he 40 years and he got knocked down to serving
• 1:20:40
  14 but. Yeah, I used to I used to mess
• 1:20:43
  with him all the time about, you know, because he he got in
• 1:20:45
  trouble for really not not reporting right.
• 1:20:48
  And I was like, bro, if you would have just stole the money.
• 1:20:50
  So we. Better off five years.
• 1:20:53
  Yeah, we I'd send somebody to go dig it up right now.
• 1:20:56
  You'd you'd have been out years ago, you know, But like, yeah.
• 1:20:58
  But he talks, he talks about, well, you guys were both in the
• 1:21:02
  and training the dog program. But yeah, I think you, you, you
• 1:21:06
  ran into each other on the track there.
• 1:21:09
  And, and he didn't know quite what because he knew who you
• 1:21:12
  were. And at that time you still had
• 1:21:13
  that reputation. And yeah.
• 1:21:16
  And then you guys became. I was still, I was still
• 1:21:17
  shaking. I was still shaking that
• 1:21:19
  reputation off. I was on a path towards the
• 1:21:21
  positivity, but I was still, I was still shaking.
• 1:21:23
  That reputation, yeah, yeah, it's just funny to hear Sean
• 1:21:27
  tell the story. But then you guys become great
• 1:21:28
  friends and then become buck mates for 13 years, which is. 13
• 1:21:33
  years. Yeah, we were.
• 1:21:34
  That is my longest Sally, my longest lasting standing.
• 1:21:37
  That's crazy. But no, he was a great guy and a
• 1:21:40
  great, great Sally to have, right, Because, I mean, he, he
• 1:21:42
  had this knowledge about him. You know, he might not have
• 1:21:45
  been, he wasn't from the streets, which I, I appreciated
• 1:21:47
  that because now here was this, this level of sophistication
• 1:21:51
  that he, he brought to the conversations that were, you
• 1:21:55
  know, that surrounded what I was studying.
• 1:21:57
  I mean, I'm studying business, right?
• 1:21:58
  I'm studying business administration.
• 1:22:00
  And his his, his understanding and comprehension of the
• 1:22:03
  business realm is just, is phenomenal.
• 1:22:04
  Oh, yeah, he, he built a big business.
• 1:22:06
  I mean, the capital was huge, over $100 million.
• 1:22:11
  He was managing at the Times. Yeah, it was a big deal.
• 1:22:15
  It was and then this is my salary and I'm like, yeah, I'm
• 1:22:18
  soaking this up right here, you know?
• 1:22:20
  So yeah, it was, it was great. But yeah.
• 1:22:22
  So, yeah, we, we get into there and they give me that, that,
• 1:22:29
  that award. And now we're mingling, right?
• 1:22:32
  The, the graduation ceremony is over and people are mingling and
• 1:22:35
  eating. They had little cakes and juice
• 1:22:37
  and stuff, right? Snacks.
• 1:22:38
  And the people from Adam State approached me and they, they
• 1:22:42
  asked me, would you like a job? And I'm like, my mind's still
• 1:22:47
  swimming with the emotions of the, the award.
• 1:22:49
  And they're like, you, you want a job?
• 1:22:51
  And I'm like, yeah, sure. They're like, you know, we'd
• 1:22:53
  like you to, to be a, a college professor.
• 1:22:56
  We'd like you to teach for us. And I'm like, OK.
• 1:23:01
  I mean, what were, what were you thinking, David?
• 1:23:03
  I mean that that would have had to blown my mind if I was in
• 1:23:06
  prison. Especially as long as you've
• 1:23:08
  been at that point and somebody walks up to you and says you
• 1:23:11
  want to be a college professor in prison and teach inmates in
• 1:23:14
  prison and you'd be in here and you get paid.
• 1:23:17
  Yeah. And we're going to pay you.
• 1:23:18
  And that's what they told me too then.
• 1:23:20
  And we're going to pay you. And I mean, like, it was it
• 1:23:23
  there. There was no saying no for what,
• 1:23:25
  right? But as far as what I was
• 1:23:27
  thinking, I got to tell you like again, there was such an
• 1:23:30
  emotional moment. Like my head was like this, like
• 1:23:33
  the like the ocean, right? It was like just waves crashing
• 1:23:37
  inside of my head. Yeah, I got, I got, I'm
• 1:23:40
  surprised I didn't fall down and and pass out because I mean, I
• 1:23:43
  was just so, so overwhelming with everything that was going
• 1:23:46
  on that day. And then to to cap it off with
• 1:23:49
  this, this offer of a job where it actually be paid.
• 1:23:53
  And it was like, yeah, absolutely.
• 1:23:55
  And you know, because by this time too, I understand my my
• 1:23:59
  mission had had absolutely changed, right.
• 1:24:01
  Like I said, I the the why of, of the change had taken shape.
• 1:24:05
  And this was I was going to do everything that I could to help
• 1:24:09
  set my people up. My and my people had expanded
• 1:24:11
  now, right? It wasn't just limited by the
• 1:24:13
  gang. My people was everybody that was
• 1:24:14
  inside. You were going to educate and
• 1:24:16
  get them ready for. I was going to educate them,
• 1:24:18
  anybody who wanted to stand up, rise up and do something good
• 1:24:20
  for themselves so they can get home and stay home.
• 1:24:23
  I was committed to help and be that, that that.
• 1:24:25
  You were committed to that and you were also not getting.
• 1:24:30
  You were A lot of those guys were getting to leave, but you
• 1:24:32
  weren't. But I wasn't right.
• 1:24:34
  I was doing life without all my court.
• 1:24:36
  My courts were done. I had had already exhausted all
• 1:24:39
  of my pills. So I was, I was, I was, I was
• 1:24:41
  done. You know, I was doing life.
• 1:24:42
  And but it didn't matter that I was doing life because my
• 1:24:46
  mission in life now had become helping to affect positive
• 1:24:49
  change in in men's lives that would help to get them home and
• 1:24:52
  keep them home, right? I didn't want to keep seeing
• 1:24:54
  them come back. You know, I had another friend
• 1:24:56
  who was doing life, who was teaching 7 Habits with me.
• 1:24:59
  His name's Greg Bowers. And he often said, man, he goes,
• 1:25:03
  I want to help set you guys up because I'm tired of you
• 1:25:05
  frittering away something I'll never, ever have.
• 1:25:08
  And that's that second concept. And I used, I actually used to
• 1:25:10
  tease that dude. I'm like, man, I wish I could
• 1:25:12
  make parole so I can violate and come back.
• 1:25:14
  You know the hot messages, you know, forget.
• 1:25:17
  You keep going, you know, and. Speaking of violating and coming
• 1:25:20
  back, I don't want to just Passover, the fact that you had
• 1:25:26
  your dad and he, he shows up in your prison.
• 1:25:32
  Yeah. And he's sick.
• 1:25:35
  Yeah, yeah. Man, this was like one of the
• 1:25:39
  most powerful parts of the book, David.
• 1:25:41
  I mean, here's a man that that you've had this complicated
• 1:25:45
  relationship with all your life, but he's trying to show you what
• 1:25:49
  he knew. It wasn't probably what I mean
• 1:25:52
  for him. It was to teach you the survival
• 1:25:54
  things of what you he thought you needed to know.
• 1:25:56
  But but then you end up and I came to.
• 1:26:00
  You know what you said there? I came to realize this later,
• 1:26:02
  right? I mean, I had a lot of anger and
• 1:26:04
  hatred towards my dad. And then I came to realize when
• 1:26:06
  he was there that, you know, he was doing the best he could to
• 1:26:08
  try to make sure he knew. Hey and I, he knew.
• 1:26:14
  What, what? What swims through your mind
• 1:26:18
  when you see your dad walk through the prison?
• 1:26:21
  That because you and I have some similarity on this, but we
• 1:26:26
  didn't, we're not at the same prison.
• 1:26:27
  My dad got a longer sentence than me.
• 1:26:31
  He got a 10 year sentence. I got a five year sentence.
• 1:26:33
  And so we would communicate through, you know, the, the, the
• 1:26:37
  core link system, true links. But your dad actually walked
• 1:26:41
  through the gates there and and entered your prison.
• 1:26:45
  Yeah, yeah, he and he'd, he'd caught a murder case himself,
• 1:26:48
  right. And he ended up with a life
• 1:26:49
  sentence very late on in life. And, and it was, it was actually
• 1:26:53
  kind of wild because actually prior to my dad showing up on
• 1:26:57
  the yard, I had just lost my son.
• 1:26:59
  My son was shot and killed by the police in a domestic
• 1:27:01
  violence call. And so I was hurting and, and,
• 1:27:04
  and, and struggling over the loss of my son.
• 1:27:06
  And then here comes my dad and he's coming because Territoria
• 1:27:09
  had the Infirmary and he's showing up to the, to the
• 1:27:12
  Infirmary for Hospice. He's already dying.
• 1:27:15
  You know, he's got a dying of liver failure now, you know, for
• 1:27:18
  anybody who's ever seen anybody die of hepatitis C, right?
• 1:27:21
  It's, it's ugly, horrible death. And so here comes my dad then
• 1:27:25
  he's in and the Infirmary and they let me go over and I go and
• 1:27:28
  I see him. And you know, here's this this
• 1:27:32
  little man now, right? I mean, like he was, he was a
• 1:27:34
  giant. He was a monster to me Once Upon
• 1:27:36
  a time. And now here's this this little
• 1:27:38
  man who's who I know is dying. And for as much as I wanted to
• 1:27:45
  hate him and as much as I wanted to like just just vent and get
• 1:27:50
  out all those things that I've been holding in for all those
• 1:27:53
  years, it, it didn't make a difference, You know, it was
• 1:27:58
  unnecessary. What was I going to do?
• 1:28:00
  Make my dad's last few moments on this earth miserable, just
• 1:28:04
  out of spite, out of meanness? Now I couldn't do it.
• 1:28:07
  And this and then on top of this is my dad, right?
• 1:28:10
  For all the ills that was still my father and my sister loved my
• 1:28:14
  father and I love my sister. And there was no way I was going
• 1:28:17
  to disappoint and let down my sister and not take care of my
• 1:28:20
  dad. And so I began to take care of
• 1:28:22
  my dad the, the facility by this time and had built a positive
• 1:28:26
  reputation. Right now, my, my reputation has
• 1:28:27
  taken this complete 180. And so they, they were very,
• 1:28:31
  very accommodating about letting me go in every day to take care
• 1:28:34
  of my dad. So I would go in and I would
• 1:28:36
  sit, my dad would sit with my dad throughout the day and I
• 1:28:38
  would, I would make sure he was taking care of it, Make sure
• 1:28:40
  it's, you know, if he wanted a soup, I'd cook his soup for him,
• 1:28:43
  you know, and make his coffee. It got to the point to where,
• 1:28:48
  you know, as he started to deteriorate, I was, I was having
• 1:28:51
  to bathe my dad. I was giving him baths and and
• 1:28:54
  you know what was? Your communication like David
• 1:28:57
  with. Him, it was honestly, it was
• 1:28:59
  mostly just me listening to him, you know, I wanted, I wanted to
• 1:29:03
  let him talk, you know. And he, he was the same old, he
• 1:29:06
  was the same old mean cuss. He was all, all his life, right?
• 1:29:10
  But I, I was, I was, I was listening to him with different
• 1:29:13
  ears. You know, Covey teaches in in
• 1:29:16
  habit 5. Seek first to understand them,
• 1:29:19
  to be understood, right? Empathic listening.
• 1:29:22
  And so I, I began to listen to my dad more empathically and
• 1:29:26
  instead of, you know, expectantly, right with the,
• 1:29:29
  with the expectations of what he should be saying to me and I, I
• 1:29:33
  should be getting what I want out of these, these
• 1:29:35
  conversations. I wasn't listening to him with
• 1:29:37
  the expectation. I was listening to him
• 1:29:39
  empathically, listening to his stories and listening to his
• 1:29:42
  wants and his needs. And again, he was still who he
• 1:29:45
  was. But you know, it's, it's who he
• 1:29:48
  was. You know how he was brought up.
• 1:29:49
  You know what happened to him to make him the way that he was.
• 1:29:53
  That's what I was. I was listening to him.
• 1:29:55
  And I remember I, I did get upset because he would often ask
• 1:29:59
  me to get a hold of my aunts, his sisters, and ask for
• 1:30:02
  pictures of the family. And none of these people would
• 1:30:05
  respond to me. And I, I mean, they, they
• 1:30:07
  weren't responding to me before anyways.
• 1:30:09
  I didn't, I had, I had lost contact with all of these people
• 1:30:12
  nonetheless, but they, they, they were my aunties, right?
• 1:30:15
  And but this is their brother and they're not, you know, kind
• 1:30:20
  of a bitterness is now starting to grow on me over them because
• 1:30:23
  they're not responding to me. And I'm, I'm getting mad about a
• 1:30:26
  whole lot of other things, right?
• 1:30:27
  And so now I'm the kind of there now and I'm now I'm defending my
• 1:30:32
  dad and, and more understanding of the, of, of the, the
• 1:30:36
  loneliness and the pain that he, he was going through.
• 1:30:39
  And then so yeah, our conversations were mostly just
• 1:30:43
  that I'd listened to his stories and he'd tell me the same old
• 1:30:45
  stories over, you know, because he, he'd actually lived for
• 1:30:48
  probably, I'd say he was there probably 3-4 months before he
• 1:30:51
  finally passed away. And then the day that he did
• 1:30:54
  pass away, I remember walking into the Infirmary early in the
• 1:30:56
  morning and the, his cell door, they had this black curtain over
• 1:31:01
  the window because that's what they would do when somebody
• 1:31:04
  passed away. They put this black curtain over
• 1:31:06
  the door so nobody could look in.
• 1:31:08
  And they opened up the door and they actually let me into the
• 1:31:11
  room. And I remember walking up to the
• 1:31:12
  bed and there's my father laying there and I'm looking down on my
• 1:31:17
  father and just, it was straight.
• 1:31:20
  It was like, you know, and you hear this a lot and it's, it was
• 1:31:23
  true for me too. Is like, it was hard to believe
• 1:31:26
  that he was dead because I kept thinking, I saw him breathing,
• 1:31:28
  you know, I, I, I, I would think that I would see his, his chest
• 1:31:32
  moving and I, but it, but he was gone.
• 1:31:34
  He, you know, he wasn't there anymore.
• 1:31:35
  And it was, it was just, it was weird.
• 1:31:36
  And so I'm sitting there and I'm crying, I'm crying, you know,
• 1:31:39
  tears are rolling down my eyes and I began to, to think, Oh my
• 1:31:42
  God, you know, this is, this is my future now, right?
• 1:31:44
  This is, this is going to be me here someday.
• 1:31:47
  One of these days, I'm going to be in one of these cells and,
• 1:31:50
  and I'm going to be gone. But the difference is, is I'm
• 1:31:53
  not going to have my son there to take care of me because, you
• 1:31:56
  know, my, my son was gone. And so it, it, it, it, it
• 1:32:00
  affected me. It didn't impacted me back the,
• 1:32:03
  to the point to where I had my, my biggest supporter, my, my,
• 1:32:06
  my, my, my inspiration. I, I had called her up, my baby
• 1:32:09
  sister and I told her, you know what?
• 1:32:10
  I'm, I'm not calling you anymore.
• 1:32:12
  I was, I was done, I was done with the world.
• 1:32:15
  I wasn't done with my mission or my purpose, but I was done with
• 1:32:17
  the world, right? It would because it wasn't real
• 1:32:19
  for me, right? It didn't seem like it was going
• 1:32:21
  to be real for me. So I, I needed to RIP the
• 1:32:23
  Band-Aid off and say, you know what, I'm going to stop looking
• 1:32:25
  outside. I'm going to focus on what I'm
• 1:32:27
  doing in here and that's it. And so I, I call my sister, I
• 1:32:31
  call my friends, everybody who, anybody who supported me, I was
• 1:32:33
  like, I'm, I'm done with all you people out there.
• 1:32:37
  And I, I walked away from everybody for a while and
• 1:32:40
  everybody even started growing out of beard.
• 1:32:42
  I mean, I just, I grew out of a a big old beard and was was
• 1:32:47
  ready to just say, you know, this is my life, I'm going to
• 1:32:51
  die here. So just the owner didn't accept
• 1:32:53
  it. And then it was it was the loss
• 1:32:57
  of my mom just a few months later that kind of like snap.
• 1:33:02
  Yeah, because my mom ended up dying of the exact same thing
• 1:33:06
  that my father had died of. She had she had a liver failure.
• 1:33:10
  My, my auntie, her twin sister had found her in the bathroom.
• 1:33:14
  And when, when my mom died and I got called down to the Chapel
• 1:33:20
  and they told me what had happened.
• 1:33:22
  I, I started communicating with my sister again because I didn't
• 1:33:24
  want, you know, had all those strained relationships, all
• 1:33:27
  those lost opportunities to be able to, to, to mend those
• 1:33:30
  bridges, to fix those bridges and stuff.
• 1:33:32
  They were gone forever. There was, they weren't coming
• 1:33:33
  back, you know, and so I don't, I don't want to have that regret
• 1:33:36
  and that, that weight on my heart of letting my sister go
• 1:33:40
  away without, you know, it's nothing.
• 1:33:43
  And so we, we, we started talking again and I, I got a
• 1:33:47
  hold of my friends and I apologized to my friends who
• 1:33:49
  were, who were there for me, because it wasn't, it wasn't any
• 1:33:51
  of their, you know, but I, I was hurting and I was trying to come
• 1:33:55
  to terms with the, the hurt and, and, and, and, and the, and the
• 1:34:00
  reality of, of what I was dealing with, right.
• 1:34:02
  I mean, I'm sitting in here for life and, and I didn't even pull
• 1:34:04
  the trigger. And I'm the only one doing life
• 1:34:06
  now. I'm the only one serving life
• 1:34:07
  without the possibility of probe everybody that was involved in
• 1:34:10
  my case. Oh, yeah, I would think that
• 1:34:13
  would be incredibly difficult to deal with, especially when
• 1:34:16
  you're dealing with someone, you know, knowing the disparity and
• 1:34:22
  and seeing, it's not like you didn't know about it.
• 1:34:24
  You saw it and saw what the other sentences were and how
• 1:34:27
  those were that played out. Well, let's let's let's switch
• 1:34:31
  to the fun and exciting stuff of when you didn't give up hope on
• 1:34:37
  clemency. Yeah, I didn't give up hope on
• 1:34:42
  clever. See.
• 1:34:42
  Well, you know, it was, it was one of those things where I
• 1:34:45
  didn't ever believe I was going to give get out.
• 1:34:47
  But at the same time, I never gave up hope, right.
• 1:34:49
  And so when I when I was teaching 7 habits for all those
• 1:34:51
  years and I was working on all my degrees, I used to tell all
• 1:34:54
  my guys, you know, because they would ask me, right.
• 1:34:57
  What, what are you doing? What are you doing with your
• 1:34:59
  time here and stuff? And I'm like, look, bro, if that
• 1:35:02
  door ever swings open for me, I don't know what tomorrow's going
• 1:35:04
  to, but if it ever, ever swings open for me, I want to be ready
• 1:35:07
  to hit the ground, right, Right. And so I prepared myself and I
• 1:35:11
  never gave up the fight, right? I, I kept fighting.
• 1:35:14
  So when Governor Hickenlooper came into office and everybody
• 1:35:20
  started putting their petitions for clemency and I put my
• 1:35:22
  petition for clemency and not as quick as some, but you know, I,
• 1:35:25
  I did, I put my petition for clemency and, and I remember
• 1:35:29
  waiting. So I, I, I filed this petition.
• 1:35:32
  I understand at the time with under, under Governor
• 1:35:35
  Hickenlooper, I actually was ineligible for clemency.
• 1:35:39
  But they had these waiver options, right?
• 1:35:44
  So if you met certain criteria you can ask for a waiver and
• 1:35:48
  they would. Which you did.
• 1:35:49
  You met it. Which I did.
• 1:35:51
  And so the waiver was disparity and sentencing.
• 1:35:56
  And so I put in my petition. I'm thinking I at least have the
• 1:35:59
  waiver, right? I don't know if he's going to
• 1:36:00
  grab me clemency because clemency is still a rare thing.
• 1:36:03
  But everybody was hopeful because Hickenlooper was this
• 1:36:06
  liberal, he was this Democrat. And so everybody's like, oh,
• 1:36:08
  they're going to let you out. They're going to let you out.
• 1:36:10
  Well, it turns out not so much, right?
• 1:36:11
  Hickenlooper didn't even didn't even start his clemency board
• 1:36:14
  until his second year, year of his final term in office, right?
• 1:36:19
  And so, so 2 years he has a board put together to review
• 1:36:24
  packets and, you know, sent to him for final say.
• 1:36:29
  And so I remember when his what he, it was, it was late November
• 1:36:33
  into early or late, I'm sorry, late October into early November
• 1:36:37
  letter started rolling, right. All the, I mean, they're all
• 1:36:39
  just about everybody in the penitentiary had filed for
• 1:36:41
  clemency because everybody thought he could, was just going
• 1:36:43
  to let everybody go. And so here, here comes the,
• 1:36:46
  the, the denial letters, right. Legal mail would get called.
• 1:36:50
  You'd hear the, the, the announcement over the intercom,
• 1:36:52
  you know, report to the office for legal mail, report to the
• 1:36:54
  office. So all these names started
• 1:36:56
  getting called. And we knew, we knew when you,
• 1:36:58
  your name was called. You, you, if you weren't
• 1:37:00
  expecting a legal letter from something else, this was, this
• 1:37:03
  was your denial. Yeah.
• 1:37:05
  And so every day from the from the time that letter started
• 1:37:09
  coming up in all through November into beginning of
• 1:37:11
  December, every day during mail, calm, pacing, the tear waiting.
• 1:37:15
  Can't imagine, David, that's so much to wait for everybody.
• 1:37:18
  Give us back when we took because I'm, I'm, I'm walking,
• 1:37:22
  you know, I'm, I'm hitting the tear back and forth, back and
• 1:37:24
  forth. And then everybody's looking up
• 1:37:26
  at me and and you know, and then, then comes the, the end of
• 1:37:30
  the denial letters. Nobody's getting any more denial
• 1:37:33
  letters. And I didn't get one.
• 1:37:34
  I'm thinking, oh man, I might be going home.
• 1:37:36
  You know, cool. I didn't get one.
• 1:37:38
  Yeah, you know, I'm, I'm excited.
• 1:37:40
  And then it was around Christmas time, and Hickenlooper announces
• 1:37:45
  the names of the people who he gave clemency to.
• 1:37:48
  And my name wasn't on that list either.
• 1:37:51
  And I'm like, what the heck, What's what's going on here?
• 1:37:53
  You know? And so the, the associate warden
• 1:37:56
  at the time, who, you know, I had developed a pretty good
• 1:37:59
  working relationship with, he goes and he looks into it and
• 1:38:03
  finds this letter that's three years old denying my petition
• 1:38:08
  for clemency. And it, it messed me up because
• 1:38:11
  I'll never forget this. The letter says, and I'm kind of
• 1:38:13
  paraphrasing here, that, you know, your waiver was denied.
• 1:38:16
  Waivers are reserved for extraordinary circumstances such
• 1:38:20
  as disparity. Which was your whole?
• 1:38:23
  And you're like, oh, my heart dropped.
• 1:38:25
  And I was just like, you sons, you know?
• 1:38:27
  And so you know it, just more confirmation that, you know,
• 1:38:30
  Destiny says I'm going to die in prison.
• 1:38:32
  You know nothing. How did you handle that?
• 1:38:35
  Because you, I mean, you had some things, some tools you were
• 1:38:38
  working with at that time, David, to be more on the right
• 1:38:42
  path mentally. But that's a hell of a blow.
• 1:38:46
  Yeah, it, it is. But you know when when you've
• 1:38:48
  been hit enough, right? You know, like, I remember the
• 1:38:50
  very first time I got into a fight, the very first time I got
• 1:38:52
  beat up, it hurt and it was staring.
• 1:38:54
  It was petrifying. It was painful.
• 1:38:56
  And then there came a point where I wasn't afraid anymore.
• 1:38:58
  Now I'm the one throwing the first punch, you know, because
• 1:39:00
  I'm, I'm ready for it. I'm excited for the fight.
• 1:39:02
  You know, I, I love the, I love the toe to toes, You know, I, I,
• 1:39:06
  I, I thrived on those kind of things.
• 1:39:07
  So it was like, I've been hit by this stuff so many times, even
• 1:39:10
  though it sucked, I still don't like to get punched in the nose,
• 1:39:12
  even though I love the toe to toes.
• 1:39:13
  I hate to get punched in the nose, right?
• 1:39:15
  And I got punched in the nose and it sucked, but wiped the
• 1:39:20
  snot off and I, I kept moving forward.
• 1:39:23
  I kept moving forward towards my mission.
• 1:39:25
  That's why I ask you that because that's what I love about
• 1:39:29
  this, because you've got a choice to make.
• 1:39:31
  And sometimes it's, it's a it's a, it's a real binary choice.
• 1:39:35
  Either just don't do it again. Give up one for me.
• 1:39:38
  I'll never make it. All the, all the negatives.
• 1:39:42
  I can't do this. I can't do that.
• 1:39:44
  It's you know, I wasn't meant for this.
• 1:39:45
  You know, I'm a victim of that. I'm a victim of this.
• 1:39:48
  But no, you just decided that, OK, I'm dusting myself off.
• 1:39:54
  I'm getting back up, going to do it again.
• 1:39:57
  And, you know, I'm, I'm still working on my master's degree.
• 1:40:00
  Yeah. At the time you were working on
• 1:40:01
  your master's. Degree, yeah.
• 1:40:02
  So I I hadn't quit on anything, but it sucked.
• 1:40:05
  But what was I going to? Do and you're creating these
• 1:40:07
  courses in prison that are that are helping all these guys.
• 1:40:10
  Yeah, built. I built a re entry program.
• 1:40:12
  I built a program off of a. Friend power of consistency.
• 1:40:16
  Yeah, we did. We did all this stuff, right.
• 1:40:18
  I had a team of guys, you know, my, a, a few friends.
• 1:40:21
  We, we put this together and we, we were rocking and rolling.
• 1:40:23
  You know, we had our mission, we had our purpose.
• 1:40:25
  We had a. So that also had to help you a
• 1:40:27
  lot with, you know, obviously, you know, time in prison, people
• 1:40:31
  do their time differently. But when you started putting
• 1:40:34
  these programs together and started creating this curriculum
• 1:40:37
  and these people started being part of these classes, and you
• 1:40:39
  were teaching these classes, and that had to fill you up, David,
• 1:40:44
  to make you know that in your past, you were making a
• 1:40:49
  difference by being the guy that everybody relied on and you were
• 1:40:52
  the general of the world. This was different.
• 1:40:56
  This was making an impact by bettering these men to go out
• 1:41:01
  into. The world, yeah.
• 1:41:03
  Even in the face of my own denials of of my own losses, you
• 1:41:06
  know, I was able to show the men that despite no matter what
• 1:41:08
  happens to you, we still have an ability to shoot, right.
• 1:41:11
  No matter no matter how bad things get, we can still rise up
• 1:41:14
  amongst this stuff. And so I didn't quit.
• 1:41:16
  I didn't quit. And then we get a new governor,
• 1:41:18
  Governor Jared Polis. And he comes into office and he
• 1:41:22
  rewrites the clemency rules because, you know, that's the
• 1:41:25
  power of the governor. So he has his own rules.
• 1:41:27
  He adopted a lot of Hickenlooper rules, but he changed some of
• 1:41:30
  them. And one of the ones that he had
• 1:41:32
  changed was the line item that made me ineligible.
• 1:41:35
  Now all of a sudden, I'm eligible.
• 1:41:38
  And so I didn't have to write a waiver letter.
• 1:41:39
  I did anyways, just to cover all.
• 1:41:42
  Yeah, I didn't even have to ask for a waiver this time.
• 1:41:44
  So I put in my petition for clemency and, you know, I finish
• 1:41:48
  up my master's degree. I, I get the job as the, the
• 1:41:51
  first, you know, incarcerated college professor in the nation.
• 1:41:55
  I'm doing amazing things. And I hire this attorney, Heidi
• 1:42:00
  Tripp, amazing lady. And she starts to help me with
• 1:42:04
  my clemency petition. She hires a social worker who
• 1:42:07
  does an amazing job. And then she even reached out to
• 1:42:12
  my ODA, who, you know, led the charge to convict me and, and
• 1:42:17
  got a support letter from this guy, right.
• 1:42:20
  And so the, the yeah, the, the the wardens are, are, are, are
• 1:42:23
  signing off on me. I had two wardens who was
• 1:42:25
  supporting me with my clemency. Yeah, I just phenomenal support.
• 1:42:30
  And so three years go by, right? Three years go by.
• 1:42:35
  I finished my I finished my, my MBA.
• 1:42:39
  I'm Covid's over with, you know, the lockdowns are coming none.
• 1:42:42
  And it's December 21st of 2023. I'd already taught 2 semesters
• 1:42:49
  of of college classes for Adam State and I was about to start
• 1:42:53
  third semester. And I get this slip on December
• 1:42:55
  21st from my case manager and it says you have an appointment in
• 1:42:59
  my office tomorrow for a clemency interview.
• 1:43:02
  I had never had 30 plus years. I'd never heard anybody get a
• 1:43:05
  clemency interviews like clemency interview.
• 1:43:07
  What the heck is this right? I had no, no, no frame of
• 1:43:09
  reference or or of anything right to to be ready to prepare
• 1:43:13
  myself. And so that night I'm up all
• 1:43:15
  night, I can't sleep. I'm like, what the hell?
• 1:43:17
  What are they going to ask? But don't say anything wrong.
• 1:43:21
  Am I going to sound sincere? Am I going to answer a question
• 1:43:24
  wrong that's going to, you know, shoot myself in the foot?
• 1:43:26
  Because history has already showed me that, you know,
• 1:43:28
  there's always something that's going to put the kibosh on my
• 1:43:31
  ability to be able to come home. So I'm sitting there and I'm,
• 1:43:34
  I'm, I'm tripping and then I get to the case manager's office the
• 1:43:37
  next morning, December 22nd of 2023.
• 1:43:40
  And I, you know, talking to my case manager and I shared with
• 1:43:43
  her that I, you know, I had a hard time sleeping and she, she
• 1:43:46
  had a hard time. She was panicked herself because
• 1:43:50
  you know, she was my, she was one of my biggest supporters as
• 1:43:52
  well. And she's like, man, I was
• 1:43:54
  worried too. I couldn't sleep either.
• 1:43:55
  And you know, she was worried they were going to ask herself
• 1:43:57
  that. So then, you know, as we're
• 1:43:59
  sitting there kind of laughing about that, you know, there that
• 1:44:03
  connection, the, the zoom meeting starts and, and three
• 1:44:07
  ladies from the governor's office, right, is his legal
• 1:44:09
  team. They, they all pop on and I'm
• 1:44:12
  waiting for the first question. And the, the main spokeslady
• 1:44:15
  speaks up. She says hired Mr. Krill.
• 1:44:18
  We, we just wanted to call and let you know that the governor
• 1:44:21
  has granted your petition for clemency.
• 1:44:23
  You'll be released on January 31st, 2024.
• 1:44:27
  And oh man, like, like when I got that MBA and they offered me
• 1:44:31
  that job. There goes my head, just the
• 1:44:33
  ocean waves of emotions. You're just going.
• 1:44:35
  And and you know, I'm. I'm not even ashamed to say
• 1:44:37
  tears started to run down my eyes.
• 1:44:39
  And then the lady asked me, do you have any questions for us?
• 1:44:42
  I can't think. I could barely keep my body from
• 1:44:47
  collapsing to the floor. And.
• 1:44:48
  And you want me to formulate a question?
• 1:44:51
  I remember I finally did. I finally did get enough census
• 1:44:54
  to ask if I needed to put together a parole plan.
• 1:44:57
  And they said yeah. And so yeah, then the call ended
• 1:45:00
  and yeah, the case managers crying, got another case manager
• 1:45:04
  walks by and hears the news and she starts crying.
• 1:45:06
  And yeah, it was, it was, it was amazing, you know, and I'm
• 1:45:09
  sitting there thinking, Oh my goodness.
• 1:45:11
  Almost almost 31 straight years not locked.
• 1:45:15
  I got, I got locked up on July 7th of 1993 and I'm going to be
• 1:45:20
  going home on July 1st or I'm sorry, January 31st of 2024,
• 1:45:25
  just over a month away. Almost 31 years and just over a
• 1:45:29
  month away. I'm I'm going home.
• 1:45:34
  It was wild. It was it was emotion.
• 1:45:36
  It it finally it might that miracle finally happened.
• 1:45:38
  And I, I remember in the book there were the whole COVID thing
• 1:45:43
  and the, and the, the old warden was leaving.
• 1:45:45
  And so you didn't think you were going to be able to because he
• 1:45:48
  knew, you know, the old David and the new David and all that.
• 1:45:52
  Yeah. And so you thought, well, hell,
• 1:45:53
  that's not going to work because he's leaving, He's retiring.
• 1:45:55
  And this COVID thing, nobody's getting out.
• 1:45:58
  And yeah, you know, and, and because you know, the the again
• 1:46:01
  with the with Hickenlooper, the messed up thing about
• 1:46:03
  Hickenlooper is when I submitted my clemency packet on that one,
• 1:46:07
  a a new warden had came in, the old warden had left, a new
• 1:46:10
  warden came in and this warden didn't even interview me.
• 1:46:12
  He just checked no box. Yeah, he checked the box that
• 1:46:16
  said no, he doesn't support me. And so.
• 1:46:19
  But this this time though, with this one, as he was retiring me,
• 1:46:21
  he let me know he was retiring. And I asked and I said, now are
• 1:46:24
  you still going to give me that interview?
• 1:46:25
  He said, I promise you I'd give you my word.
• 1:46:27
  And this is this is during the lockdowns.
• 1:46:29
  He goes, I give you my word before I leave, I'll give you
• 1:46:32
  the interview. And sure enough, he called me
• 1:46:33
  out and he gave me the interview and it was cool, you know, and,
• 1:46:36
  and by this time, man, he didn't, he didn't even ask me
• 1:46:39
  about like the alum, you know, the, the, the facts of the crime
• 1:46:42
  because I hadn't been denying it, right?
• 1:46:44
  I'd owned it. And so when, when he's giving me
• 1:46:47
  this interview, actually all he's really doing is giving me
• 1:46:49
  advice. He's like, look, when you get
• 1:46:50
  out, you've got to be mindful of this.
• 1:46:52
  You got to be mindful of this, right?
• 1:46:53
  And he's like trying to upset me up for success.
• 1:46:55
  And it was a really cool. Interview, Yeah, I, I thought
• 1:46:57
  that was a really great part of the book and not knowing how it
• 1:47:00
  was, obviously knew that you got out, but I didn't know what
• 1:47:04
  happened then. And then I was like, oh, man,
• 1:47:06
  for David, he's not going to get that.
• 1:47:08
  He's that Warden's not going to be there.
• 1:47:09
  He's this COVID thing is going to make it where he can't get
• 1:47:12
  out and go talk to him in an interview.
• 1:47:13
  And then the interview happens and he gave his word and he went
• 1:47:16
  through with it, man. OK, so you've got 30 days before
• 1:47:23
  you bolt this place after 31 years.
• 1:47:29
  What's it like in those 30 days? Oh, man, it's, you know, prep
• 1:47:34
  prepping time, you know, it's the little by little and giving
• 1:47:37
  stuff away, right? You know, you know, you know how
• 1:47:38
  it goes, right? The canteen starts getting
• 1:47:40
  shifted out, you know, property, you know.
• 1:47:42
  Hey bro, what are you going to do with that beanie?
• 1:47:43
  I'm going to use that radio. I had a real nice old school
• 1:47:46
  beanie, you know, and everybody had been covering that beanie
• 1:47:48
  for a while, you know. And so, yeah, so it's, it
• 1:47:51
  started divvying, divvying things up to, to my friends.
• 1:47:54
  And Sean, Sean scored big. I don't know if he mentioned
• 1:47:57
  that when I left. He, he, he ended up with a big
• 1:47:59
  old box of food because, you know, I'm, I'm penitentiary rich
• 1:48:01
  at this time. I mean, I'm bringing in adjunct
• 1:48:03
  professor pay, so. Exactly.
• 1:48:05
  You're you're prison rich. Yeah, I'm, I'm prison rich, so
• 1:48:09
  you know I'm. Yeah, I left Sean.
• 1:48:11
  Up they go. He's he talked about how much
• 1:48:12
  weight he had put on all the food I had left him.
• 1:48:18
  Yeah, I know. So, you know, that that's what
• 1:48:19
  it was. It was really, it was getting my
• 1:48:21
  mindset ready for what it was going to be like when I went
• 1:48:23
  home. So for, for all the lessons I
• 1:48:25
  had took, listening to the fellas who were doing life on
• 1:48:28
  the installment, right. They'd get out, come back, get
• 1:48:30
  out and come back. And what, what happened?
• 1:48:32
  You know, tell me about what happened with you.
• 1:48:33
  I I, I, I I listened to that. I studied that.
• 1:48:35
  So I began to prepare myself. You know, I would, I would
• 1:48:38
  visualize and imagine walking into the chow hall as if it was
• 1:48:41
  I was walking into a restaurant, you know, because to me it was
• 1:48:43
  the same thing. And that helped me, You know, I
• 1:48:46
  didn't have those anxieties. I used to hear a lot of the
• 1:48:48
  fellas talk about about getting out and going to the restaurant
• 1:48:51
  for the first time and just feeling overwhelmed with
• 1:48:53
  everything. I didn't, I didn't panic going
• 1:48:55
  into the stores or being around social situations because I I
• 1:48:58
  started to set my mindset. Up started to visualize it.
• 1:49:02
  Started to visualize these things you know and man, when
• 1:49:05
  that door opened up, I was. Let's talk about it.
• 1:49:07
  Let's talk about the door opening up, because I think your
• 1:49:09
  sister and some other people were right on.
• 1:49:11
  On the other side. You had some cool shoes on, some
• 1:49:15
  jeans and a polo blue shirt. With the, the, the DOC dress out
• 1:49:20
  and the DOC dress out. Yeah, there's, there's my sister
• 1:49:25
  and my friends waiting for me. All the, all my, all the fellows
• 1:49:27
  that had supported me after they had gotten out, you know, and it
• 1:49:30
  was awesome. I'm just holding them and
• 1:49:33
  holding my sister and, yeah, just being free, you know, and
• 1:49:37
  and, and my friend wonder when my friend Jericho Rule Hunt, he
• 1:49:41
  had a the only thing I had asked for, right?
• 1:49:43
  Because I I didn't really know what I wanted or what I wanted
• 1:49:46
  to do because it was just so fast and so crazy.
• 1:49:49
  Never really thought I'm not, I'm not a stylish guy.
• 1:49:50
  So I didn't, I didn't visualize what I'd wear when I got out.
• 1:49:53
  I didn't think about none of that stuff.
• 1:49:55
  But the only thing that I had asked for was I wanted the most
• 1:49:58
  comfortable pair of shoes in the world because the shoes that we
• 1:50:01
  wore on the inside. Oh man, whoever makes those
• 1:50:04
  black boots, David should be shot.
• 1:50:08
  Horrible even. You know, in Colorado, we were
• 1:50:10
  able to buy tennis shoes on canteen, but they were sounding
• 1:50:13
  such cheap pieces of crap shoes that it was, it was horrible.
• 1:50:17
  So my, my, my 1:00 ask was for the most comfortable pair of
• 1:50:20
  shoes in the world. And so my boy rule hunt.
• 1:50:22
  He, he comes up with the and he gives me a box of on clouds.
• 1:50:27
  Yeah, these are $250 shoes. And I'm like, Oh my God, put
• 1:50:30
  those suckers on right away and. Yeah, I.
• 1:50:33
  Was like, yeah, there we go. OK, so you you had this great
• 1:50:38
  thing on the other side and but I don't remember if it's right
• 1:50:42
  after you guys leave there, you go to a restaurant and you're
• 1:50:46
  having this great moment and then.
• 1:50:49
  The. CEOs walk in and there's about
• 1:50:52
  as many of them as there are you, and you get this like.
• 1:50:57
  Weird feeling feeling. Yeah, I get this weird.
• 1:50:59
  Vibe you know, we go into this right, like I said, I, I was
• 1:51:01
  prepared for that. I, I mentally prepared myself
• 1:51:04
  for social situations, right. So we go to this nice
• 1:51:06
  restaurant. We all after, after everybody,
• 1:51:09
  you know, we, we, we hug and and and and embrace and and once
• 1:51:12
  once the tears dried up, we all got into the cars and we, we
• 1:51:15
  drove to this diner and we go into this diner and and, you
• 1:51:19
  know, order my first breakfast and you know, we're eating all
• 1:51:23
  having a good time talking and all of us after I'm done eating
• 1:51:27
  in walks this crew of C OS. Now, when I, when I describe it,
• 1:51:32
  because I, I really don't know. We didn't talk with them.
• 1:51:35
  They looked like they looked like they had either just got
• 1:51:38
  done, like if they were the sort teams, the goon squad, they'd
• 1:51:42
  like they just got done, you know, smashing some people out
• 1:51:47
  or they look like they were about to go and do that right,
• 1:51:49
  because they just had that, that look on them and that energy.
• 1:51:53
  And as soon as I've seen them, my my whole demeanor shit right.
• 1:51:56
  And I, I, I sit up, I kind of even put my leg out because you
• 1:52:00
  know, if they if they get ready to move, I'm in ready to move.
• 1:52:03
  And you know, the instinct, right instinct, right, of, of
• 1:52:07
  what we did when we were inside. And so my, my sister looks at me
• 1:52:10
  and she sees me and she sees my whole face has shifted and, and
• 1:52:13
  my demeanor has changed and she's wondering what's going on.
• 1:52:16
  And she looks over and she sees them and she kind of tenses up a
• 1:52:20
  little, understands. And we, everybody, we all just
• 1:52:23
  get up and we walk out the door, which is like we're, we're not
• 1:52:25
  even going to buy into. So that that that honestly was
• 1:52:27
  my only real. But it but the reason I brought
• 1:52:31
  it up is is it just shows you even if you prepare all the
• 1:52:34
  things you prepare something like that out of something you
• 1:52:36
  wouldn't have thought of it, it hits you and it creates that
• 1:52:40
  feel. That feel, whatever that if you
• 1:52:43
  don't know how, if you don't know how to handle it, it it
• 1:52:46
  could lead to, you know, some, you know, some bad decisions,
• 1:52:48
  poor decisions, you know, and that, that that is something,
• 1:52:51
  you know, and I'll, I'll be writing more about that later
• 1:52:54
  because I do want to touch on that topic is, you know, I've
• 1:52:57
  been discovering that there were a lot of things that I didn't
• 1:52:59
  prepare for, but I prepared for a lot of things and I hit the
• 1:53:02
  ground. Yeah, let's talk about that.
• 1:53:03
  Considering. Let's talk.
• 1:53:04
  Yeah, considering where I'm at, I'm, I'm highly successful now,
• 1:53:08
  but you know, I, I have run into a few things I didn't prepare
• 1:53:13
  for, but because I prepared through Covey, you know that
• 1:53:16
  self, that self-awareness, right?
• 1:53:17
  I'm, I'm, I'm hyper self aware. I, I think things, I'm, I'm good
• 1:53:21
  with. That doesn't mean I don't feel
• 1:53:22
  things, but I know how to deal with those emotions better than
• 1:53:26
  I did when I was younger. But yeah, no, the success, you
• 1:53:29
  know, when I hit the ground running, I came home.
• 1:53:31
  I had a job working my with my friend Roll Hunt at
• 1:53:33
  Transcendence Recovery as a substance use disorder peer
• 1:53:38
  specialist and director of operations.
• 1:53:42
  I was still teaching for Adams State University, so I was, I, I
• 1:53:45
  got hooked up with Red Rocks Community College.
• 1:53:47
  I began to work as an adjunct professor for adjunct or for Red
• 1:53:51
  Rocks Community College. So I basically I had three jobs
• 1:53:54
  walking out the door, which is. Which is unreal and and I'm I'm
• 1:53:57
  so impressed with that because that is not easy.
• 1:54:01
  Yeah, no, it, it definitely isn't easy.
• 1:54:03
  Yeah. So, yeah, January 31st, 2024, I,
• 1:54:06
  I got three jobs coming home. You know, I, I got money in my
• 1:54:09
  pocket. I got, I got like $12,000 of my
• 1:54:11
  own money from what I had made working as an adjunct instructor
• 1:54:15
  on the inside. So I'm, I'm, I'm ready.
• 1:54:17
  I'm hitting it. And it's a few short months
• 1:54:20
  later, I, I, I, I become a fellow with the JFF Horizons
• 1:54:24
  Jobs for the Future Horizons. They fly me out to Washington,
• 1:54:27
  DC, my first trip, you know, I'm going to DCI mean, I grew up in
• 1:54:31
  the system, for crying out loud. I had to California and Colorado
• 1:54:34
  that, that's it, that's it, Pueblo and Pueblo and LA, right?
• 1:54:37
  And now all of a sudden I'm, I'm, I'm in DC.
• 1:54:40
  And then I, I, I get invited to NCHEF in New Orleans.
• 1:54:44
  I'm in New Orleans. I, I, I get put on to this other
• 1:54:47
  fellowship, the Rockwood leadership for higher education
• 1:54:50
  in prison and I'm going to these training tenant on ours and
• 1:54:53
  they're cool because it's this leadership training almost like
• 1:54:56
  the, the covey stuff. You know, I used to watch, I
• 1:54:58
  used to watch videos of Covey, you know, at these resorts, at
• 1:55:01
  these, these nice resorts, all these management.
• 1:55:04
  And now here I am, I'm at, I'm at this nice resort in Racine,
• 1:55:09
  WI, right. And I'm where it's looking out
• 1:55:11
  on the great Lake, you know, Lake MI and never seen Lake MI
• 1:55:14
  before Here I am in, in Racine. And then we, we have this nice
• 1:55:18
  little resort in San Diego, well, on one of the little
• 1:55:21
  islands out in, in their, in their harbor, right in their, in
• 1:55:23
  their area and so on enjoying San Diego.
• 1:55:27
  And then New York, we're in Briarcliff Manor, NY and this is
• 1:55:31
  a beautiful resort up in New York.
• 1:55:33
  And I'm just just in awe of all of this stuff.
• 1:55:36
  And I'm meeting all of these wonderful people, especially,
• 1:55:39
  you know, what was really amazing, actually meeting all
• 1:55:41
  these wonderful people like yourself, formerly incarcerated
• 1:55:44
  out here doing big things. And I'm like, where I never, we
• 1:55:47
  never get to see this, right? We never get to see these guys,
• 1:55:50
  right? Yeah, I'll hear about it.
• 1:55:52
  And now all of a sudden I'm, I'm finding out there's a huge
• 1:55:54
  community out here of, of, of amazing people who have done
• 1:55:58
  time and are out here just killing it right now, right.
• 1:56:01
  And they're, and they're all working towards criminal justice
• 1:56:04
  reform and their own rights and trying to help set up for
• 1:56:07
  success for people coming home, you know, housing and job
• 1:56:10
  opportunities and just, you know, policy changes to try to
• 1:56:14
  help make the transitions home better.
• 1:56:17
  And just just just wild. I'm meeting all these people.
• 1:56:20
  As a matter of fact, I'm not in Colorado right now.
• 1:56:23
  Just little FYII was in New York this week.
• 1:56:27
  I had won a grant from an organization called Canary
• 1:56:30
  Impact to help write a training manual for a business idea.
• 1:56:34
  I had, you know, when, when I was coming home, come on a
• 1:56:38
  grant, they flew all the grant recipients that they had awarded
• 1:56:41
  to here to New York to convene, get some training, meet up with
• 1:56:44
  some funders and just network, right.
• 1:56:47
  And so again, here's here's a room full of amazing people from
• 1:56:50
  across the country, Chicago and and Texas and California and
• 1:56:54
  right. And we're, we're, we're all
• 1:56:56
  coming together, getting to know each other and building,
• 1:56:59
  building networks and they're just amazing things.
• 1:57:01
  And so, yeah, the past three days I was in New York City and
• 1:57:03
  now I'm in Virginia. I'll be going home back to
• 1:57:06
  Colorado here in a couple of days.
• 1:57:08
  But yeah, it's. Oh, you've been on the move.
• 1:57:11
  And, and I just, I, I've really been excited about this
• 1:57:14
  interview because it's just got so much like it's, it's just
• 1:57:21
  packed full of things that are life lessons, things that you
• 1:57:27
  can use that you give people. And I, I don't want, I, I want
• 1:57:33
  people to read this book because it really just gives you a lot
• 1:57:38
  more of what we talked about here today.
• 1:57:39
  It's just, it's just, I guess the, the real, it's so real.
• 1:57:44
  I, I, I get to think that's why I just really couldn't put it
• 1:57:47
  that it just was so real. And I felt for you when you were
• 1:57:50
  young and, and I, you know, it made me, you know, feel for this
• 1:57:54
  kid. I, you, you fight for this kid
• 1:57:57
  as as you read about David and then you go into prison with
• 1:58:02
  him. And so you, you, you've got
• 1:58:04
  however he's been able to write this is in a really good way.
• 1:58:09
  I'm just really happy for you. And if, if I was going to ask
• 1:58:12
  you, David, what do you think's your biggest take away through
• 1:58:16
  this journey for the listeners out there?
• 1:58:19
  I I think one of the things that from all of it right when I'm
• 1:58:22
  when I was in. My, my loneliest point is that,
• 1:58:25
  you know, once, once you start to take control of your own, of
• 1:58:28
  your own mind, because everything's in our mind, right?
• 1:58:31
  Every reality that we we have, that's that's coming into our
• 1:58:35
  mind. It is, is because that's what,
• 1:58:38
  where our relevancy is at, right where our focus is at, where,
• 1:58:41
  where our beliefs are about everything is there inside of
• 1:58:43
  our head. And when you understand the
• 1:58:45
  power that you really have to shape how you see the world,
• 1:58:49
  right, as Covey calls it, having a paradigm shift, right, your
• 1:58:51
  paradigms, your patterns of expectations, when you really,
• 1:58:55
  really, truly understand the power that we have, man, you can
• 1:58:58
  create a whole new narrative, right?
• 1:58:59
  You can create a whole new story.
• 1:59:01
  And when you, you know, they said this a lot in prison and a
• 1:59:03
  lot of the, the prison, you know, those old cognitive
• 1:59:05
  renewal things. But it man, it's so ring so
• 1:59:07
  true, right, is when you start to change the way you think,
• 1:59:10
  right? You start to change the way you
• 1:59:12
  feel and when you start to change the way you feel, you
• 1:59:15
  start to change the things you do.
• 1:59:17
  And when you change the things you do, you start to get
• 1:59:20
  different things right. And I'm proof positive with that
• 1:59:24
  concept, man, I, I changed the way I thought, which changed the
• 1:59:28
  way I felt, which changed what I was doing.
• 1:59:31
  And it literally opened up the voice, changed my life.
• 1:59:36
  And so, yeah, that's, that's the main thing is that, you know,
• 1:59:38
  the power of the mind. Is is that's a.
• 1:59:41
  Powerful take away, David, because you are that and and.
• 1:59:48
  And you know, just your belief and taking action and not losing
• 1:59:55
  hope and you kept that alive to, to get yourself out of there,
• 1:59:58
  which I think a lot of people would have just thrown in the
• 2:00:01
  towel and you didn't. Which makes it really why you're
• 2:00:05
  such a good teacher because everybody knows you've walked
• 2:00:08
  that walk and we were teaching those things.
• 2:00:11
  People want a list of that so they know it's real.
• 2:00:14
  Folks, for that book out there, don't forget it's Kiko.
• 2:00:18
  Life without parole to life with purpose.
• 2:00:21
  Hey, and while you're checking out things on Amazon, get my
• 2:00:23
  book too. It's a nightmare.
• 2:00:25
  Success, loyal to betrayal, life behind bars, adapting, and
• 2:00:29
  finally breaking free. Hey, if you got time, leave me a
• 2:00:33
  review on Apple. Those things are great.
• 2:00:35
  I love to read them and it helps the show.
• 2:00:37
  If you want to know what I'm doing, go to brettcassidy.com.
• 2:00:40
  I spell it wrong. I spell it with ATY, not ADY, as
• 2:00:44
  I used to say to my people when I was writing my emails back and
• 2:00:47
  forth from Leavenworth. Stay strong.
• 2:00:49
  I'll do the same. David Carrillo, man, I just have
• 2:00:52
  just blown away by your story and so glad that Sean Miller
• 2:00:56
  connected us and and so glad you guys found each other.
• 2:01:00
  So it's just keep doing everything you're doing because
• 2:01:02
  it's it's inspiring stuff and people love comeback stories.
• 2:01:06
  Thank you, thank you. And man, to all the all the men
• 2:01:08
  and women on the inside that get to hear this.
• 2:01:10
  And I keep pushing forward. I keep pushing.
• 2:01:12
  Forward. Great stuff.
• 2:01:14
  They have nine more success in and out.