Latest / Im Krisenmodus / Why Colombians Are Fighting in the War in Ukraine: Money and Conviction

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Why Colombians Are Fighting in the War in Ukraine: Money and Conviction · Im Krisenmodus

• 0:00
  Die Übersetzung von Jans Stimme vom Deutschen ins Englische wurde mit einer KI erstellt.
• 0:08
  We were prepared for the worst. But when we got to the front line,
• 0:11
  the reality was even worse.
• 0:14
  Dominik is from Colombia, nearly 10.000 kilometers away from Ukraine.
• 0:19
  And now he's here, fighting on the front line.
• 0:22
  Why would someone voluntarily join a war that isn't even their own?
• 0:26
  Ist es wegen dem sie glauben, wegen der Geld, oder ein wenig von beiden?
• 0:31
  Ich habe vier Kolumbien gespielt in der Ukraine. Sie haben mich über die Drone-Attackung,
• 0:36
  die Angst, die Brutal-Winter, und warum sie sagen, dass diese Krieg war viel
• 0:40
  schlimmer als etwas, was sie noch nie gedacht haben.
• 0:56
  Hi, I'm Jan Jessen, political editor and a war and crisis correspondent for the Funker Media Group.
• 1:02
  In this episode, we're looking at men who traveled thousands of kilometers to fight in Ukraine.
• 1:07
  Colombians on the front line, they're fighting for a country that isn't their own.
• 1:11
  They talk about justice, about money, about the hope for a better life,
• 1:16
  and about a war that turned out to be far worse than they ever expected.
• 1:20
  We're not meeting them in a military base or sitting behind desks.
• 1:23
  Instead, we're out in a patch of woodland in the Dnipro region,
• 1:27
  in east-central Ukraine, in the middle of the Ukrainian summer.
• 1:31
  It's hot, humid and surrounded by lush green trees.
• 1:34
  At first glance, it almost feels peaceful.
• 1:37
  And that's exactly what makes the stories these men tell feel so surreal.
• 1:42
  Standing among the trees are four soldiers in Ukrainian uniforms.
• 1:46
  They're laughing, smoking, cracking jokes. One of them is on crutches.
• 1:51
  None of them are Ukrainian. Sie sagen mir nicht ihre realen Namen.
• 1:55
  Für mich sie sind Sombra, Logotor, Koko und Dominik. Sie sind die Militär-Koll-Signs.
• 2:01
  Das ist ziemlich common, wenn ich auf Ukrainian-Soldierze informiere.
• 2:05
  Für die Sicherheit nicht ihre realen Namen.
• 2:08
  Sie gehen bei ihren Koll-Signs. Es wird schnell klar, dass diese nicht die Menschen
• 2:12
  hierher kommen, aber ihre Geschichte ist nicht in eine Sprache.
• 2:17
  So die erste Frage ist, warum Sie hier sind?
• 2:22
  Was brought me here to Ukraine? Injustice. I don't like seeing injustice against children or women.
• 2:27
  There are also a lot of lies being told. And of course, money is part of the reason as well.
• 2:32
  Injustice here in Ukraine is what brought me here too. I came to help and to
• 2:36
  make my small contribution to this country. It was also one of my dreams to
• 2:39
  serve as a soldier in another country.
• 2:41
  Thank God I was able to make that dream come true. And now I serve here in the army.
• 2:47
  The reason I'm here in Ukraine is because I don't accept injustice,
• 2:50
  dictatorships or communism.
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  Another important reason is the money, to give myself a better quality of life back home.
• 3:02
  The reason I'm here is because I saw what was happening in Ukraine on social
• 3:05
  media. Justice was being violated by Russia.
• 3:08
  And besides that, I also wanted to feel a bit of adrenaline in my life,
• 3:11
  if you want to put it that way.
• 3:16
  You can already hear almost the entire complexity of this story in their very first answers.
• 3:22
  The men actually seemed pretty relaxed. They were calm, laughing a lot,
• 3:27
  clearly enjoying themselves, even enjoying the chance to talk to a journalist,
• 3:31
  especially given the way we had to communicate.
• 3:34
  None of the four spoke Ukrainian, so we had to rely on translation apps.
• 3:38
  I spoke English, translated it into Spanish, and then translated their answers
• 3:42
  back again. They got a real kick out of that.
• 3:45
  In der Anfang habe ich sogar versucht, ein bisschen Spanisch zu sprechen, aber ich wirklich kann.
• 3:50
  Das war eigentlich ein bisschen ein Eis-Breaker. Wir haben noch ein paar Lachen
• 3:53
  zusammengekommen. Aber das ist auch was die ganze Situation so surrealistisch.
• 3:58
  Juste vor ich sie kennengelernt, diese Männer hatten sich auf der Frontline kämpft.
• 4:03
  Sie hatten die Schmerzen auf der Bühne. Sie sprechen über Injustice,
• 4:07
  über die Stimme in Solidarität mit Ukraine.
• 4:10
  Aber sie sprechen auch über Geld, über die Worte, über die Worte,
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  um ein besseres Leben zurück zu Hause, about fulfilling a lifelong dream of
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  being a soldier and even about the adrenaline if you focus only on the money
• 4:21
  you'll probably say well they're mercenaries,
• 4:24
  if you listen only to what they say you might call them volunteers fighting
• 4:28
  for a more just world the truth is it's probably not quite that simple,
• 4:33
  Colombia went through decades of armed conflict you'll probably remember groups
• 4:37
  like the FARC the left-wing guerrilla movement that fought for years really
• 4:41
  for decades gegen die Colombian-Military.
• 4:44
  Those conflicts, which were very close to a civil war, claimed tens of thousands of lives.
• 4:50
  Today, those conflicts have largely come to an end, but many former soldiers
• 4:54
  and police officers with combat experience struggle to find their place in civilian life.
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  Stable, well-paid jobs are hard to come by.
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  At the same time, Ukraine is urgently looking for experienced fighters,
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  and it pays significantly more than many of these men could ever earn in Colombia.
• 5:10
  We've talked several times auf diesem Podcast über die Ukraine-Kreuz-Kreuz-Kreuz-Probleme,
• 5:15
  und wir sehen uns in den letzten Folgen, die in den Show Notes zu finden.
• 5:19
  Das ist genau das die Realität diese Menschen finden sich in.
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  Einmal zwischen der politischen Verpflichtung, der für eine Zukunft,
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  der Militärz und der Krieg, die in den letzten Kilometern startet,
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  aber plötzlich ist es in der Vergangenheit der Welt.
• 5:34
  Ich habe als Soldat in Colombia für vier Jahre alt. Ich habe vier Jahre nach
• 5:39
  Ukraine bekommen, ich habe drei Monate Erfahrung gemacht. Und ich habe hier
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  für vier Monate in total.
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  Ich habe hier einen Beitrag, damit die Glück für Ukraine ist.
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  Aber wir sind jetzt hier für die Freiheit. Some of diese Männer bereits hatten military experience.
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  Koko, für example, served als Soldat in Colombia.
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  And Dominik says that now he's fighting here for Ukraine's freedom.
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  Back in Colombia, that's a highly controversial issue. President Gustavo Petro
• 6:09
  has accused Ukraine of using Colombians as cannon fodder and the human cost
• 6:14
  has indeed been enormous.
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  Hundreds of Colombians are believed to have been killed in this war,
• 6:19
  although there are no reliable official figures.
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  If you walk across Kiev's Maidan Square, you'll come across a large memorial
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  field filled with thousands of flags.
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  Each flag represents a fallen soldier. Among them, you'll also see many portraits
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  and flags honouring fighters from Latin America.
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  And it's not just Colombians. There are volunteers from Brazil,
• 6:41
  Venezuela and several other Latin American countries.
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  There are also many European volunteers fighting on Ukraine's side.
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  A few years ago, for example, I met a German former Bundeswehr soldier who had
• 6:52
  joined the Ukrainian armed forces.
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  Later, he took his own life because he couldn't cope with the stress of the
• 6:58
  front line and the trauma he had experienced,
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  There are also mercenaries and foreign fighters from the United Kingdom the
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  United States France and many other countries So what you find is a remarkably
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  international mix of people who have chosen to stand alongside Ukraine.
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  Naturally I ask these men one simple question Was the war anything like what you expected?
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  I didn't really know exactly what to expect when I came here to this war,
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  but some things were exactly what I had imagined. It is extremely difficult.
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  You constantly see videos and reports, and that's what you expect when you come
• 7:37
  here. A lot of what you see in those images is actually the reality of what
• 7:40
  happens on the battlefield.
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  But the war here in Ukraine is different. It is much more technological.
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  I had to adapt to the new systems of warfare die wir hier in Ukraine verwendet,
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  haben. Wir immer noch die Schmerzen, aber wenn wir tatsächlich auf die Bälle
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  kamen, es war sogar noch schlimmer.
• 8:01
  Es war eine sehr schwierige und schreckliche Erfahrung. Aber wir haben gelernt,
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  dass wir unsere Angst haben. Und jetzt sind wir hier, für eine Chance zu können.
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  We prepared ourselves for the worst, but once we reached the front line,
• 8:14
  it turned out to be even worse.
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  It was an incredibly tough experience, but we learned how to keep our fear under control.
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  They expected the worst, and somehow the reality was even worse.
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  And these are men with military experience. They've seen combat before.
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  They know what it's like to see people killed or to be forced to kill themselves.
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  And yet they all say that Ukraine is something completely different.
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  I've heard the same thing from many of the other foreign fighters I've met here.
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  I mentioned the former German soldier earlier. I've also spoken to an American mercenary.
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  They all describe the same fundamental difference. And we've talked about it
• 8:49
  many times on this podcast before.
• 8:51
  We'll link a few of those episodes in the show notes as well.
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  That difference is drones. Today you're often spotted long before you even realize you've been seen.
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  If you move, you could be dead just seconds later.
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  Along the front line, there's now what's effectively a 40 kilometer deep kill zone.
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  A strip of land where simply moving around is incredibly dangerous, often deadly.
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  The battlefield has become a place where you're being watched before you even know you're in danger.
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  It's no longer just about taking cover from artillery fire. You're hiding from
• 9:23
  eyes in the sky, from technology that can detect you, track you, and kill you.
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  That's what makes this war so different from conventional wars.
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  In the past, you mainly had to worry about artillery shells,
• 9:35
  mortars, and indirect fire.
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  A shell would come in and land somewhere, and if you were unlucky you'd be killed
• 9:41
  or wounded. A drone is different. It hunts you.
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  Before we came here, we already knew this war was different.
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  It's a war where drones play a major role.
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  The men speak in a calm, matter-of-fact way.
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  It's almost as if they've seen things that simply can't be put into words,
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  so they've reduced their experiences to short, blunt sentences.
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  Dominik doesn't even have to say much. You can see the consequences for yourself.
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  He's standing on crutches.
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  He told me that shrapnel from an explosion shattered his knee.
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  And maybe that's why the conversation so quickly turns to winter,
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  to the cold, to pain, to the physical toll of war.
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  Because for these men, war isn't just about strategy or geopolitics.
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  It's something that tears directly into the human body.
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  Right now, it's fair to say this war is more deadlocked than it has been in a long time.
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  The front has become a massive war of attrition with very little movement.
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  That was also true in the sector where these Colombian soldiers were deployed.
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  We met in the southeast of the country, in the Dnipro region,
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  but farther southeast of the regional capital itself.
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  The actual front line was about 30 kilometers from where we were talking.
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  At this point, Russian forces are barely making any meaningful advances.
• 10:58
  They're sacrificing huge numbers of troops and enormous amounts of equipment,
• 11:03
  yet they're gaining very little ground.
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  Earlier this year, there were concerns that Russia might launch a major summer
• 11:09
  offensive. So far, that hasn't happened.
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  Or rather, those offensive efforts have been contained.
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  At the same time, Ukraine has become increasingly effective at disrupting Russian
• 11:20
  logistics with both long-range and short-range drones.
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  They're also targeting Russia's oil and gas infrastructure, The financial lifeblood
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  that keeps the Russian war machine running.
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  A great deal is happening behind the front lines, deep inside Russian territory.
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  And that could eventually change the course of this war.
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  The Colombians are serving with Ukraine's 31st Mechanized Brigade.
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  When I spoke with them, a Ukrainian officer was also there, the Deputy Battalion Commander.
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  Through an interpreter, he explained how the brigade views these foreign volunteers.
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  That's important because it leads to another key question.
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  Are the Colombians simply filling gaps in Ukraine's ranks or have they become
• 12:00
  a genuine part of the unit?
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  Wenn ihr stets, sagen sie, dass sie hier kommen.
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  Sie sagen, sie sind hier für die Ukraine, die sie als Freunde,
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  um sich hierher zu verändern, gegen die Russian invasion zu defend.
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  In der Sinne der Militär-Skills und Abilität, Sie sehen die Unterschiede.
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  Die Menschen kommen hier, viele von ihnen young.
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  Sie kommen hier mit Kampf-Kranken, andere ohne. Aber alle haben sie in der Nähe
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  und sie haben sehr gut in ihren Missions.
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  Als für die Kolombien, ich kann sie sagen, sie sind eine wirklich genügend Einladung,
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  Die Folgen zeigen sich an die Arbeit zu tun.
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  Die Kolumbien sagen, dass es eine wirklich glücklichste Unterstützung ist.
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  Als die Brigade ist, die Kolumbien haben lange seitdem ein Teil der Einrichtung.
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  Und das ist interessant in sich.
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  Die Sprache, die zuerst aussehen, enorm ist, ich meine, als ich sagte,
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  keine vier Leute sprechen, die Ukrainer sprechen, ist, dass sie nicht mehr ein
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  Obstacle in der Welt der Welt, als man sich erwartet.
• 13:02
  Mit translation apps. There are some Colombians who understand a little Russian
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  or Ukrainian and we communicate with them that way as well.
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  Most of them are quick learners and gradually teach themselves Ukrainian.
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  Those who have been here longer can already communicate quite well in Ukrainian.
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  At the command post, the radio station from where combat operations are coordinated,
• 13:20
  there is also a foreign soldier, more specifically a Colombian.
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  He understands the orders and coordinates the missions of his fellow soldiers.
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  Das, auch, sagt viel über die Natur dieser Krieg.
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  Es ist nicht mehr nur ein Krieg zwischen den Armeen von zwei Ländern.
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  Es ist auch ein Krieg in der Krieg aus all over dem Welt werden in den gleichen Units
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  integriert, wo die Sprache verändern, die Leben-Storien-Intersekt sind,
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  und die Militär-Necessität entwickelt völlig neue Realität.
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  The men themselves describe their
• 13:51
  relationship with the Ukrainians in a surprisingly matter-of-fact way.
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  They're not overly enthusiastic, and they don't romanticise it,
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  but they're clearly positive about it.
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  They don't mistreat us, and they don't treat us like children either.
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  We are grown men, and we understand how military life works. They treat us very well.
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  We have no complaints at all. They are very friendly and supportive toward us
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  foreigners. Es ist sicherlich nicht ein warm oder komfortziger Tone,
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  und das ist genau das, was es so kreisend ist.
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  Die Männer sagen nicht, dass alles einfach oder dass jeder Freund ist.
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  Sie sagen, dass die Militärinheit schwer ist.
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  Es gibt ordentliche Regeln, und es gibt eine harte Art von uns zu sprechen.
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  Aber sie fühlen nicht abzuholen, sie fühlen nicht zufrieden,
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  und sie fühlen nicht wie second-class Soldaten.
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  Das macht die Bildung viel kompliziert. Einige dieser Männer kamen hier für
• 14:42
  die Geld, aber sie sehen sich nicht als expendable.
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  They see themselves as soldiers serving alongside other soldiers.
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  Then there's another uncomfortable truth. Colombians aren't fighting only for
• 14:53
  Ukraine. Russia has also been recruiting men from Colombia.
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  We've talked about that in one of our previous episodes as well.
• 15:00
  There are a great many foreign fighters serving in the Russian army,
• 15:03
  including many from Latin America.
• 15:05
  At a prisoner of war camp in western Ukraine, for example, I met men from Colombia, Venezuela and Cuba.
• 15:12
  Es gab auch viele Menschen aus Afrika, Nigeria, Kenia und anderen Ländern,
• 15:18
  als auch Menschen aus India, Nepal, Sri Lanka und Bangladesch.
• 15:23
  Das bedeutet, dass in dieser Krieg, eine Kolumbien kann einen Kolumbien endet
• 15:27
  auf einen Kolumbien, vielleicht ohne einen überhaupt nicht zu wissen.
• 15:32
  Ich fragte die Menschen was das bedeutet. Auf der battlefield,
• 15:36
  man sieht nicht ob jemanden mit Light- oder Dark-Skin.
• 15:40
  On the battlefield, you don't know who is who. You don't know whether someone
• 15:43
  is Russian or Colombian. The moment he wears a Russian uniform, he becomes my enemy.
• 15:49
  Even if he is Colombian, he is still our enemy because he is defending the Russian
• 15:52
  side. That makes him a military target.
• 15:56
  Those are the kind of sentences that stay with you because they show how war
• 16:00
  changes the meaning of categories.
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  Background, language, nationality, all of that loses importance on the battlefield
• 16:07
  when someone is standing on the other side.
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  For the men I met, the logic is brutally simple.
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  If someone is wearing a Russian uniform, they are the enemy.
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  Even if they come from the same country.
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  Even if they speak the same language.
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  Even if they may carry a very similar personal history.
• 16:26
  And the Ukrainian officer I spoke with sees it in much the same clear-eyed way.
• 16:33
  They all see this as their job. And they see the enemy as the enemy. There is an enemy.
• 16:37
  There is an order to eliminate that enemy. And they carry out that order.
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  Das ist wie ein gegenwärtig. Es ist ein gegenwärtig, es ist ein gegenwärtig. Es ist ein gegenwärtig.
• 16:44
  Es ist ein gegenwärtig. Der gegenwärtig ist der gegenwärtig.
• 16:49
  Das Wort ist wie eine militärische Statement, wenn die Ukrainien sagen.
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  Aber wenn die Kolumbien sagen, es ist existentiell.
• 16:55
  Wenn ich weggebracht habe, ich habe eine einfachste Antwort.
• 16:59
  Of course, du fragst dich, warum Menschen von einem relativ safeem Land haben
• 17:03
  sich ihre Leben zu riskieren?
• 17:05
  Ja, Kolumbien still kämpelt mit serious crime und violence. Aber compared zu
• 17:10
  Ukraine, es ist, of course, ein relativ vieles Land.
• 17:13
  So, was macht Menschen zu einem Ort wie Ukraine und ihre Leben zu riskieren?
• 17:17
  Für eine cause, die in reality ist nicht ihre eigene?
• 17:20
  Und mit Fragen wie diese ich immer mich etwas verletzt bin.
• 17:24
  On one hand, I can understand that the money is obviously a powerful incentive.
• 17:28
  Serving in the Ukrainian armed forces can mean earning 10 times what the average
• 17:32
  person in Colombia makes.
• 17:34
  And I can also understand someone saying, I want to stand up against injustice.
• 17:39
  But as I said, it is always complicated when you talk to people in situations
• 17:43
  like this. I mentioned my encounter with Mika earlier.
• 17:46
  He was the German fighter I met years ago who had joined the war in Ukraine.
• 17:51
  At first, he also came across as an idealist.
• 17:53
  Er sagte er war gegen evil, gegen die Russische aggressor, die einfach nur in Ukraine invaded.
• 17:59
  Aber später, Mika putt ein Handgrenade zu seinem Gesicht und es hat ihn,
• 18:03
  weil er deeply traumatisiert wurde und konnte nicht mehr mit dem, was er erlebt hat.
• 18:08
  Und das ist auch etwas, was in der backen Ihrer mind, wenn Sie mit diesen Menschen
• 18:12
  sprechen. Wenn ich sie mit ihnen, sie sahen incredibly relaxed.
• 18:15
  At first glance, Sie konnten nicht sehen, die hell sie überleben,
• 18:17
  die horrors sie überleben oder was sie überleben.
• 18:21
  The question is, of course, what will these men take home with them if they
• 18:24
  do make it home after surviving this war?
• 18:27
  And what happens when they are suddenly thrown back into civilian life?
• 18:31
  These are questions you inevitably ask yourself when you meet people like this.
• 18:35
  And they are questions that will probably only be answered months or even years from now.
• 18:39
  What all of these men have in common is that they experienced a war that was
• 18:43
  far worse than anything they had imagined.
• 18:46
  Maybe that's why one sentence stands out above all the others,
• 18:49
  nicht die von Weapons, nicht die von Politik, die von Winter.
• 18:56
  I like winter, but as a tourist, not as a soldier. Winter looks beautiful on
• 19:00
  television, but staying here? No.
• 19:03
  I like winter when I'm on vacation, when I can play with my children,
• 19:07
  but being at the front line in winter is complicated.
• 19:17
  Winter on the battlefield is extremely harsh, it's freezing cold.
• 19:20
  You feel like your fingers are going to break off.
• 19:26
  Diese Männer haben fast 10,000 Kilometern übergebracht. Heute,
• 19:29
  die Krieg in der Ukraine ist ihre alltägliche Realität.
• 19:32
  Sie sprechen über Geld, über Justiz, über Brotherhood.
• 19:36
  Aber über alles, sie sprechen über eine Krieg, die viel besser war als alles,
• 19:40
  was sie schon erwähnt haben.
• 19:41
  Vielleicht ist das, was ihre Geschichte besser erklärt hat, als ob eine politische
• 19:45
  Debatte überhaupt hätte. Das war dieser Episode von In Crisis Mode.
• 19:49
  Es wurde von Alexander Baumeister produziert.
• 19:52
  Er ist auch ein Journalist und arbeitet für eine Radio-Station within the Funker Media Group.
• 19:56
  If you enjoy the podcast, follow us, leave us a rating and feel free to share
• 20:01
  your thoughts about the people whose voices you have just heard.
• 20:04
  You can write to us at chrisandmodus at funkamedian.de That's all for today.
• 20:10
  Take care of yourselves. See you soon. Bye. Musik,
• 20:17
  In Crisis Mode, the podcast from Conflicts.