Latest / Kind of a Big Deal / Corporate, Startup, Freelance, Founder: How to Build a Creative Career on Your Own Terms

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Corporate, Startup, Freelance, Founder: How to Build a Creative Career on Your Own Terms · Kind of a Big Deal

• 0:01
  SPEAKER_00: Hi all, welcome back to kind of a big deal.
• 0:04
  SPEAKER_00: I'm your host, Kristen Belden, and I can't wait to get into today's episode.
• 0:10
  SPEAKER_00: Some friendships are nice to have.
• 0:12
  SPEAKER_00: Others are the kind that shape who you become.
• 0:14
  SPEAKER_00: Today's guest is the latter for me.
• 0:16
  SPEAKER_00: Vanessa and I go all the way back to the corners of an art school painting lab, through a summer in Europe surviving on nectarines and salami, to sharing an apartment in San Francisco and figuring out what it meant to actually be adults in the world.
• 0:31
  SPEAKER_00: Vanessa is a unicorn in the truest sense.
• 0:33
  SPEAKER_00: A creative director, UX designer, co-founder, freelancer, and fine artist who has moved fluidly through corporate, startup, and everything in between.
• 0:44
  SPEAKER_00: Always on her own terms, always with her whole self.
• 0:47
  SPEAKER_00: But beyond the resume, this conversation is about what it means to stay true to who you are across an entire career when the systems around you keep asking you to be something else.
• 0:58
  SPEAKER_00: This one's gonna be fun, so let's jump in.
• 1:02
  SPEAKER_00: Hi Vanessa.
• 1:04
  SPEAKER_01: Hi, Kristen.
• 1:08
  SPEAKER_00: I have been so giddy about this conversation and then also bizarrely nervous because this is my bestie, my the person for this show that I've known the longest.
• 1:24
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and probably ever.
• 1:26
  SPEAKER_00: Like, I don't know that I'll ever interview anybody that I've known longer than you.
• 1:30
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so how on earth am I supposed to package this intro for someone that holds this level of importance in my life?
• 1:39
  SPEAKER_00: I'm not sure, but I'm gonna do my best.
• 1:42
  SPEAKER_01: Um I'm also very nervous because I've never been interviewed before.
• 1:49
  SPEAKER_00: There's nothing to be nervous about because you're amazing and we just get to shine a light on how great you are.
• 1:54
  SPEAKER_00: Vanessa is truly bestie, ride or die.
• 1:58
  SPEAKER_00: We go all the way back to college for art school.
• 2:02
  SPEAKER_00: She was graphic design, I was fine arts, and the unfairness of the universe, she was way better at painting and all things fine art than I was, and it always made me really angry.
• 2:12
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, true.
• 2:15
  SPEAKER_00: Still true, still true.
• 2:18
  SPEAKER_00: Um we traveled to Europe together after college, which has been really fun because I'm doing this.
• 2:25
  SPEAKER_00: I don't even think I've shared this with you, but I have this book of journaling prompts that every day it gives you a prompt.
• 2:31
  SPEAKER_00: And three of the like 15 that I've done so far have been about either our traveling to Europe or our time together.
• 2:39
  SPEAKER_01: Talk about the nectarines.
• 2:41
  SPEAKER_01: I did!
• 2:43
  SPEAKER_00: I did.
• 2:45
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, I literally one of the questions was think of a flavor or something that brings you back to a place.
• 2:52
  SPEAKER_00: And I was like, oh my god, salami bread and nectarines from Tampu Terra.
• 2:56
  SPEAKER_01: I was just telling who I don't know who I was telling, and that popped into my brain, and it was just like I instantly go back to like I don't even know how how old were we?
• 3:06
  SPEAKER_01: Like maybe maybe we were what 21?
• 3:09
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, because it was right after college.
• 3:11
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 3:11
  SPEAKER_00: Like 21, 22, and I'm just like, we should have been murdered, just there is so much about our history that 100% I don't know how we're still alive between that and then also what came after that.
• 3:28
  SPEAKER_00: But real quick on the nectarines, if if anyone has been to Chinquetera recently, I'm so curious if this is still holds true because we were there so many years ago, you know, over 20 years ago now, which is crazy.
• 3:40
  SPEAKER_00: Um but typical European vibe of like they have the bakery and then they have the deli and then they have the produce market, like everything is separate, so they do everything extra, extra, extra good.
• 3:53
  SPEAKER_00: And we came across this produce stand with nectarines outside, and I it's like to this day, I don't even like fruit that much, but it's like best things ever.
• 4:03
  SPEAKER_01: That was our morning routine.
• 4:04
  SPEAKER_01: Get the get the fruit, get the bread, get the meat, go just like walk around and pack.
• 4:10
  SPEAKER_01: It was very good shape after that trip.
• 4:14
  SPEAKER_00: We ate more than I've ever eaten, and I was in the best shape I've ever been in.
• 4:17
  SPEAKER_00: So yeah.
• 4:18
  SPEAKER_02: Walking.
• 4:20
  SPEAKER_00: Um after Europe, we moved to San Francisco together and we lived together there for a few years.
• 4:26
  SPEAKER_00: And then, yeah, I feel like when I was reflecting on it, like we we literally grew up together.
• 4:31
  SPEAKER_00: We didn't grow up in our childhood together, but the formative years of what it means to be turning into like a big kid and an adult is we shared those years together.
• 4:42
  SPEAKER_00: And so we've gotten to witness and be part of each other's career and life journeys in a way that is just really special.
• 4:48
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and Nessa is literally one of the most creative, one of the most wildly talented people I know.
• 4:56
  SPEAKER_00: She is the kind of person you can say, and this literally just happened, was like, hey, I'm thinking about a logo for X.
• 5:02
  SPEAKER_00: I gave zero direction.
• 5:03
  SPEAKER_00: I was just like, I know she's brilliant, and the next day she'll send you something.
• 5:07
  SPEAKER_00: I was like, oh, maybe I'll get like one or two things that look kind of cool.
• 5:09
  SPEAKER_00: It like blew my mind because the way she thinks about storytelling as part of her visual storytelling is just so um, it's genius in a way that like it's really hard to explain.
• 5:22
  SPEAKER_00: You're gonna get to see her stuff because I'm gonna make sure we link to all of her incredible, beautiful work.
• 5:26
  SPEAKER_00: But outside of her talent, she's hilarious, fun, a genuine inspiration to me because she has always shown up fully as herself, fully with integrity.
• 5:38
  SPEAKER_00: Um, currently creative director at Hopwater, which, if you don't know, is crazy badass.
• 5:43
  SPEAKER_00: It's so cra- You know what this is so funny?
• 5:46
  SPEAKER_00: Brian and I were talking about how there's this funny moment when you become like you're fully in adulthood and you look around at your friends and you're like, holy shit, like if I had known my bestie would be the creative director of this major brand, and like my other friend would be some badass pediatric researcher, and like this friend would be over here doing this.
• 6:04
  SPEAKER_00: These are things that you can't even fathom when you're younger.
• 6:07
  SPEAKER_01: I did not think we would be doing all this.
• 6:10
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, to your point we met like in the corners of a painting lab and just like made messes and ran around Europe.
• 6:20
  SPEAKER_01: So, first of all, thank you for all the nice things.
• 6:23
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, I'm not even done yet.
• 6:24
  unknown: I know.
• 6:26
  SPEAKER_01: Preventively say gratitude.
• 6:28
  SPEAKER_01: And yeah, it is nuts when you're like, oh, I know I know lawyers and doctors and people that are researching solutions to things.
• 6:36
  SPEAKER_00: It's crazy.
• 6:36
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, when I was writing out some of your stuff, I'm like, oh yeah.
• 6:39
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, I know she's a badass, but when you look at it, you're like, oh shit.
• 6:44
  SPEAKER_00: So yes, can't wait to hear about current day.
• 6:46
  SPEAKER_00: But your whole career has really been amazing.
• 6:51
  SPEAKER_00: To uh co-founding a business and running your own show.
• 6:56
  SPEAKER_00: Um you've seen a lot.
• 6:59
  SPEAKER_00: And it's so interesting to me when I get to have these conversations with someone who has really seen, like, from being a freelancer to owning your own business to being in corporate to now working for a startup.
• 7:08
  SPEAKER_00: Not many people have that breadth of an experience.
• 7:12
  SPEAKER_00: So, Nessa, tell me, did you always know you were going to be such a badass?
• 7:18
  SPEAKER_01: Probably.
• 7:19
  SPEAKER_01: Like, you know.
• 7:23
  SPEAKER_01: Sure.
• 7:24
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 7:24
  SPEAKER_01: I don't, I I no, no.
• 7:27
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I knew I wanted to be well, I think I I knew I wanted to be like good at whatever I did.
• 7:40
  SPEAKER_01: I didn't know fully really what that was gonna be.
• 7:43
  SPEAKER_01: My whole family is creative, so just kind of went that direction.
• 7:48
  SPEAKER_01: Um I think there's a lot of decision points that I when I look back at, I'm like, if I had known that there were other options, I might not be like in this creative field, but I definitely think I would have been in a creative field.
• 8:05
  SPEAKER_01: I think I knew that I would be creative in some fashion.
• 8:10
  SPEAKER_01: I just didn't know what.
• 8:11
  SPEAKER_01: And I do think when you say it like that, it is weird that I've done like corporate own my own business startup, freelance.
• 8:18
  SPEAKER_01: There's very few we call like unicorn designers in there, and I'm not the only one, but I definitely have unicorn tendencies when people are like, wait, can you do that?
• 8:30
  SPEAKER_01: And you're like, Yeah.
• 8:33
  SPEAKER_01: And here's proof.
• 8:34
  SPEAKER_01: And I definitely have a lot of things I'm not good at, which I will f be the first one to raise my hand and be like, I'm not the one for this project or job.
• 8:47
  SPEAKER_00: Um, it's funny because I was gonna ask, I mean, I know that your family all has, you know, your your brother was a badass in design, your dad is a painter and had, you know, built a home on a beautiful farm, and your mom is incredible.
• 9:04
  SPEAKER_00: So I was curious, I actually don't know that I've ever asked you this.
• 9:07
  SPEAKER_00: What did that look like?
• 9:08
  SPEAKER_00: Was art and creativity intentionally a part of y'all's childhood, or is that something that you witnessed, or is it something that was just kind of like a foundation of how you all functioned as a family?
• 9:22
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I think my well, my grandfather also always had uh my dad's dad.
• 9:27
  SPEAKER_01: Well, and my mom's dad, my other grandpa was he was more of the like engineery tinkering in the workshop and fixing things, and so there was always get dirty figure sh stuff out.
• 9:39
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and then my dad's dad always had a little studio in the back, and there's always a painting in progress.
• 9:46
  SPEAKER_01: And then my brother's a lot older than I am, and I think it was visible, like he was in high school as I'm in elementary school, and so he's doing cool high school art projects, and I'm watching him, or like we're going to his art shows, and that was yeah, like coloring and just drawing was always the default activity in the house.
• 10:10
  SPEAKER_01: Also, having my brother and my dad help me with school projects, or like, you know, teach or encourage to be like, let's make this, or do you want watercolor with me?
• 10:22
  SPEAKER_01: It was just always exposure to all of that.
• 10:25
  SPEAKER_01: And I do remember one time my third grade teacher, she was like, Vanessa's not she told my parents basically that they were either that I've had a learning disability or that they were abusing me.
• 10:35
  SPEAKER_01: This is back in the 80s when like they don't really know anything about um children.
• 10:40
  SPEAKER_00: Wait, that your parents were abusing you?
• 10:42
  SPEAKER_01: What was really happening to me is I was depressed because my brother was going to college until like in my household that something's gonna change, but I'm too well to like really articulate anything.
• 10:54
  SPEAKER_01: Anyway, they sent me to the therapist, the school counselor, whatever.
• 10:59
  SPEAKER_01: And they're like, Well, how do you like what can we do?
• 11:02
  SPEAKER_01: I'm like, I don't know, I'm just I'm just bored.
• 11:04
  SPEAKER_01: I'm bored in class or whatever, and blah blah blah.
• 11:07
  SPEAKER_01: And the solution to get me more involved was for me to teach like a painting class or like a workshop to my to my class.
• 11:17
  SPEAKER_01: So that was really fun.
• 11:18
  SPEAKER_01: My brother helped me put together the steps to watercolor this simple ocean rock scene, and I got to be like an art teacher at a very early age.
• 11:28
  SPEAKER_01: I don't think I would ever actually want to teach, but that was just always another core memory of just like, oh yeah, this was my way of communicating or involving myself in in groups because I also, if I'm bored, I'm just gonna like doodle and tune myself out.
• 11:44
  SPEAKER_01: Um, if I'm not being challenged.
• 11:47
  SPEAKER_01: So yeah, it was fun to always have art around.
• 11:52
  SPEAKER_01: I'm glad we all have that outlet, but I get really sad and I can feel it even now, like I haven't had a lot of time to get messy and paint, and yeah, it makes a difference.
• 12:03
  SPEAKER_00: A hundred percent.
• 12:04
  SPEAKER_00: I think I just wrote about this that I'm doing my like quarterly planning or whatever for this next quarter, and I actually really enjoy this process now that I am enjoying what I'm doing so much.
• 12:16
  SPEAKER_00: But I am reading this book called The Desire Map, and it's really about how do you map your quote unquote goals to how you want to feel and what you want to create and how you want to live in the world, versus like I'm gonna hit X amount of numbers and blah blah targets by XX date, and there's nothing wrong with that, obviously, goals and all those things are important, but I like that her frame on it is those things though have to be somewhat flexible based on what it is that you're trying to do in the world at whatever time, and we can kind of get down on ourselves if it's like, well, I didn't hit that target, well, then what the hell?
• 12:51
  SPEAKER_00: Well, did you do a million other things that made your life feel good and fulfilled?
• 12:55
  SPEAKER_00: And I think I've been saying this forever, but when I think about where I find true joy, it's usually in the being outside, getting messy, being dirty, doing a painting, creating something from scratch, and I mean talk about I just have not done that any outside of doing it with my kids, which is a whole other experience.
• 13:16
  SPEAKER_00: And also beautiful and fun in its own way, but for me, so much of the process was just being able to go internal and go into my head and and not have to be navigating other people's needs at the same time.
• 13:26
  SPEAKER_00: And so I know that that's a deeply important part of my life that I have not been able to quite find a way to infuse it yet.
• 13:35
  SPEAKER_00: But I know you have found pockets throughout your life, like you have your studio and you have you know places where you're really, really clear about how you want to make sure that that's still in your life.
• 13:45
  SPEAKER_00: How do you find your way back to that when you have fallen kind of out of the habit?
• 13:50
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I don't know.
• 13:54
  SPEAKER_01: I feel like it's like sometimes it's literally a forcing mechanism.
• 13:59
  SPEAKER_01: Someone will ask for a painting or something for a gift for somebody.
• 14:03
  SPEAKER_01: It's a deadline or like an assignment, and I'm like, okay, cool, this will get me back in there, and then you know, 14 days makes a habit, I'll be back at it, and then work comes in and sucks all my time again.
• 14:15
  SPEAKER_01: But at least I like got a little itched scratched.
• 14:18
  SPEAKER_01: I think I'm in the process right now of trying to figure out how to get back into it.
• 14:21
  SPEAKER_01: So I'm like, I'm doing that.
• 14:23
  SPEAKER_01: I keep things with me all the time just in case.
• 14:26
  SPEAKER_01: So even if I'm traveling and I'm like, sketchbook, pencils, like get the supplies, so I have no excuse.
• 14:32
  SPEAKER_01: But if the time doesn't allow for it, or my body's saying, like, no, you just want to actually just sit here, I'm getting better at like acknowledging that and not judging or forcing forcing it, or beating myself up for being like, you could have you could have drawn instead, you just sat and looked at the sky.
• 14:51
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm like Which we could all do more of what I wanted to do.
• 14:56
  SPEAKER_01: So looking at the cloud pictures.
• 14:59
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know that it's ever like it's it feels like when people talk about yoga and it's a practice and you it is a muscle, and you can go in these waves, and it it just finding the ways to do five minutes, ten minutes.
• 15:12
  SPEAKER_00: I think that is the biggest hack, especially as ambitious, overachieving women who care about their careers and you know all the other things in their lives that matter.
• 15:23
  SPEAKER_00: How do you allow yourself?
• 15:25
  SPEAKER_00: Like it doesn't have to be perfect to begin.
• 15:26
  SPEAKER_00: This is a lesson I have tried over and over to learn, but I constantly struggle with that because I'm like, well, if I can't do it for four hours, then fuck it.
• 15:35
  SPEAKER_00: Like, well, no, that doesn't, then no wonder you're gonna fail, right?
• 15:38
  SPEAKER_00: I feel it's these little micro changes because I think it can feel like if you're not doing it all in the way you want to do it.
• 15:47
  SPEAKER_00: I used to do that with yoga too, actually.
• 15:49
  SPEAKER_00: It's a perfect example.
• 15:50
  SPEAKER_00: I'm like, well, if I can't go to my hour and a half class, then forget it.
• 15:53
  SPEAKER_00: Well, now I make sure I have five or ten minutes every day.
• 15:56
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 15:56
  SPEAKER_00: Even if it's just to move my body in that way.
• 15:58
  SPEAKER_00: And but man, it really sucks because I just want to do it all.
• 16:03
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, like I joked all the time.
• 16:05
  SPEAKER_01: I want the list of the artists that don't have a benefactor or like a partner.
• 16:09
  SPEAKER_00: Anything, yes, literally anything else, other responsibilities.
• 16:12
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, a partner that is like finances are fine, your house is taken care of.
• 16:16
  SPEAKER_00: Healthcare is taken care of.
• 16:19
  SPEAKER_01: Just make your make your stuff all day.
• 16:21
  SPEAKER_01: Go for it.
• 16:21
  SPEAKER_01: I want that list, and I know they're out there and good for you.
• 16:24
  SPEAKER_01: I'm not that person right now.
• 16:26
  SPEAKER_00: So I know one day.
• 16:28
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, yes, those little micro.
• 16:30
  SPEAKER_01: I also I liked when you come to me with projects, even though it's still designed at my computer, it's solving a different problem or getting to be a little more creative for somebody I love dearly, or you know, if people want, you know, can you help me make a flower arrangement?
• 16:48
  SPEAKER_01: Or you know, even if it's not drawing, if it's a different type of creative activity, I will count it as like, I did it, I did it, I made it thing.
• 16:58
  SPEAKER_00: I totally forgot about that.
• 16:59
  SPEAKER_00: Oh my god.
• 17:00
  SPEAKER_00: If anybody's in the Bay Area and needs anybody to do anything creative ever, literally anything, and Vanessa's your gal.
• 17:05
  SPEAKER_00: She does these floral arrangements that are beyond, like you would think she is a floral designer.
• 17:10
  SPEAKER_00: It's kind of crazy.
• 17:13
  SPEAKER_01: I feel like I've had many lives because there's I look back and I was just updating my website and all of the event business stuff, organizing it, and I'm just like, oh, it's like still very shit I did, yes.
• 17:28
  SPEAKER_01: And it was so fun and beautiful and unique to each event, but it was so fun to make stuff.
• 17:35
  SPEAKER_01: I think that's the part I miss about that life time that I had was just making something that didn't exist before.
• 17:43
  SPEAKER_01: It was just like always a new little challenge.
• 17:46
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, no, I'm with you.
• 17:48
  SPEAKER_00: My wedding, because of Vanessa's support and help, looked like something out of a storybook because I was like, I think X, Y, and Z, can you help me make this happen?
• 17:57
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 17:58
  unknown: Okay.
• 18:03
  SPEAKER_00: I know, I know.
• 18:05
  SPEAKER_01: It was also when like you think about like now everyone has so much access to inspiration.
• 18:11
  SPEAKER_01: But this was before Pinterest was like a year old and Etsy was barely a that's right place.
• 18:18
  SPEAKER_01: So it's like you had to see something and figure it out.
• 18:21
  SPEAKER_01: And yeah, when I think a lot of these businesses are now in existence because they're like, I had to make a thing and now I'm gonna make it for everybody.
• 18:30
  SPEAKER_00: I'm so curious, everybody has some perspective on this, whether or not it's fully fleshed out, but in the same way some folks are now saying AI is already gonna contribute to like Alzheimer's because we're not utilizing our brain in the same way, right?
• 18:40
  SPEAKER_00: Other people would say that's not true at all, and because you have to use your brain differently in order to ask the right questions to get the answer you're looking for.
• 18:47
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm curious, what do you think some of this is doing for the creative process?
• 18:52
  SPEAKER_00: When you and I were working on the wedding, for example, we had to create, and we only had the tools at our disposal.
• 19:01
  SPEAKER_00: And I do think sometimes, right, beautiful art is created when you have a limited amount of resources versus when you have everything at your fingertips.
• 19:08
  SPEAKER_00: So I'm curious what your perspective is.
• 19:10
  SPEAKER_01: I have definitely been thinking about this a lot.
• 19:13
  SPEAKER_01: I don't have fully fleshed out opinions that could probably change.
• 19:19
  SPEAKER_00: I was gonna say, I feel like they change by the day or the hour, yeah.
• 19:22
  SPEAKER_01: And I think it is very personal to individuals of how much they really want to rely on it.
• 19:28
  SPEAKER_01: I at the moment, I see there's some good things that are happening, and I see things that are like it's a lot of noise and distraction.
• 19:38
  SPEAKER_01: And for especially in a startup vibe right now where I'm at, like what does that look like for our all of our processes?
• 19:49
  SPEAKER_01: I spent all day to get one image that was okay, and then the next day I had a photographer in 10 minutes get me 15 images that were like beautifully lit and perfect, and nothing I had to Photoshop or edit afterwards.
• 20:09
  SPEAKER_01: So for me, as much as people are like, it's gonna take your job away, learn it.
• 20:14
  SPEAKER_01: I do think knowing it, knowing how to talk to it is gonna be huge, but it's not there right now.
• 20:22
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I think the speed of humans being able to communicate directly to each other is still super important.
• 20:29
  SPEAKER_01: I'm struggling personally because I'm not a words person, like talking, writing about my work.
• 20:37
  SPEAKER_01: I always think about you too when I'm doing this, because you always used to write what your paintings would be.
• 20:45
  SPEAKER_01: You would prompt yourself, you would write a prompt and then paint it.
• 20:49
  SPEAKER_00: Literally, my stupid sketchbook was all words.
• 20:53
  SPEAKER_00: Like, what the hell?
• 20:54
  SPEAKER_00: I had no drawings, I had no nothing, and then when I was supposed to, I would like try to force myself to do it.
• 20:59
  SPEAKER_00: I'm like, that's just not how I process.
• 21:01
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and I was the opposite.
• 21:02
  SPEAKER_01: I'm scribbling little weird things, and then like some words reminding me what to do, but it was not full, complete sentences, and I look at these prompts, they're novels that I have with the specific lighting of the which camera was used and the style of reference art.
• 21:20
  SPEAKER_01: I'm like, I gotta dig into my art history knowledge.
• 21:22
  SPEAKER_01: For someone who is a visual communicator and learner, I am struggling on how to spend the time to write the novel.
• 21:31
  SPEAKER_01: And then when it's not what you want, you're like, motherfucker.
• 21:36
  SPEAKER_01: Um the iteration process is still clunky.
• 21:39
  SPEAKER_01: So getting it tweak one thing, it changes all the stuff that was okay.
• 21:44
  SPEAKER_01: When I have a designer sitting next to me, it can be like, this part's great.
• 21:48
  SPEAKER_00: Mm-hmm.
• 21:48
  SPEAKER_01: Tweak this, and we're good.
• 21:51
  SPEAKER_00: Not the whole last thing.
• 21:52
  SPEAKER_00: No, no, please don't throw that part away.
• 21:53
  SPEAKER_00: I like that part.
• 21:54
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 21:54
  SPEAKER_01: No, throw that.
• 21:55
  SPEAKER_01: It doesn't so yeah, it's a weird time to be.
• 22:01
  SPEAKER_01: Figuring this shit out.
• 22:02
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I've seen some amazing, obviously, some artists that are just in it and love it and they make really weird, cool shit, and that's great.
• 22:09
  SPEAKER_01: And again, they're sitting there doing that all day.
• 22:12
  SPEAKER_01: I think as a person within a team and a business that needs to deliver a lot of different assets and types of assets, it's not saving me time.
• 22:22
  SPEAKER_01: It's also not saving me money because then I realize you actually need four different AIs to get the result you want.
• 22:28
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 22:28
  SPEAKER_00: I'm so curious about it because I think everybody comes at it from a different place just based on the role you have and you know the industry that you're in.
• 22:36
  SPEAKER_00: And I especially for the creative process itself, I'm so curious about what it does to shift the way we even think about what we're building toward and how to ask our own selves the critical questions that get to the result that we want.
• 22:51
  SPEAKER_00: And yeah, it'd be nice if there is a world in our future where both coexist and one is not feeling like it's taking over the other, or right there it feels like there's room for both.
• 23:02
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know if that's yeah the perspective of the people that are building these tools, and so maybe that's not the future we're headed towards, but you could see in in my mind, like the best scenario would be we know when to utilize the tools for the appropriate thing, but it is not taking the place of so many important aspects of specifically the creative process.
• 23:23
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I think that's a key word, it's still a tool, and so learning how to use it.
• 23:29
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I think we're gonna get bombarded with mediocre design because people that aren't trained and design is a skill.
• 23:38
  SPEAKER_01: There's a science to making things visually pleasing, especially in a marketing or advertising setting that you know it's communicating the right things, it's getting people to read in the right order.
• 23:51
  SPEAKER_01: There's all theories on color.
• 23:52
  SPEAKER_00: Color theory was my least favorite class.
• 23:55
  SPEAKER_01: That one was my favorite.
• 23:56
  SPEAKER_00: I hated it.
• 23:58
  SPEAKER_00: Like, this is what is happening.
• 24:00
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but to that, you if it's in the wrong hands, they're just gonna here's my asset and give me and people are gonna think that it's easy and that it's the standard will get lowered.
• 24:11
  SPEAKER_00: Lower.
• 24:12
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 24:12
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, you're seeing that happen all over the place with content creation right now and the conversations around sure, you can throw whatever into something and give you the prompt, but it's so obvious right now when you go on LinkedIn or whatever, what has just been copied and pasted and what actually has somebody's unique perspective or their length or their voice coming through.
• 24:31
  SPEAKER_00: And it's the same as with anything, right?
• 24:33
  SPEAKER_00: You can literally create whatever you want at this point.
• 24:35
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, you can save time, but what are you wanting to put out in the world?
• 24:39
  SPEAKER_00: What are you looking to add to the world?
• 24:42
  SPEAKER_00: Um, rewinding all the way back to our time in San Francisco.
• 24:46
  SPEAKER_00: I have chatted with a couple of women who are just first out of college and they're navigating these early parts of their career.
• 24:52
  SPEAKER_00: And our early days in SF looked like driving around all of San Francisco, papering the streets with our resume.
• 24:59
  SPEAKER_00: Any restaurant that looked like it was open, we were like throwing ourselves.
• 25:03
  SPEAKER_00: I had no business applying to half the things I applied to.
• 25:06
  SPEAKER_00: It was just we were we knew we wanted to be there, we knew we wanted to make it work, so we figured it out.
• 25:11
  SPEAKER_00: Um I had no idea what I wanted at the time, and so much of what I experienced there helped me form that.
• 25:19
  SPEAKER_00: But as you were kind of moving into your more big kid jobs, um, what were some of the more pivotal moments that you can think of as you were navigating and what it meant to like really fully embrace what it meant to quote unquote be creating a career for yourself?
• 25:39
  SPEAKER_00: Hey, quick pause before we get back into it.
• 25:42
  SPEAKER_00: If you're listening to conversations like this one and something keeps nudging you, like I know I'm at some kind of turning point, I just can't quite see it clearly yet.
• 25:51
  SPEAKER_00: That's actually exactly what I do.
• 25:53
  SPEAKER_00: I work with women leaders who are in the middle of something: a career shift, a business that's ready to evolve, a moment where what got you here just isn't cutting it anymore.
• 26:03
  SPEAKER_00: Sometimes what you need most isn't a whole program or a big engagement.
• 26:07
  SPEAKER_00: You just need a few hours with someone who can help you see what you're too close to see yourself.
• 26:13
  SPEAKER_00: That's the clarity session.
• 26:14
  SPEAKER_00: It's a focused, one-on-one conversation where we dig into where you are, where you want to go, and what's actually in the way.
• 26:22
  SPEAKER_00: You walk away with real direction, not a list of homework, but genuine clarity on your next move.
• 26:28
  SPEAKER_00: If that sounds like what you need right now, I'd love to talk.
• 26:31
  SPEAKER_00: You can find all the details at Beldenstrategies.com slash clarity.
• 26:36
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, let's get back into it.
• 26:39
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I think that there's none of my decisions have been very premedit premeditative at the word.
• 26:49
  SPEAKER_01: Um so I'm always like, huh, that looks cool.
• 26:53
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 26:53
  SPEAKER_01: That worked out.
• 26:54
  SPEAKER_01: Or like I'm going down this path.
• 26:56
  SPEAKER_01: When I started at a small like boutique agency that was doing some print, some like digital.
• 27:03
  SPEAKER_01: I get like it's weird.
• 27:05
  SPEAKER_01: I'm like, how old am I?
• 27:07
  SPEAKER_01: Because like web design was barely a class.
• 27:10
  SPEAKER_01: And when I started getting jobs, like UX was kind of a thing, but now it's a giant thing.
• 27:19
  SPEAKER_01: So there was just a lot of everyone figuring it out together, which was fun.
• 27:26
  SPEAKER_01: There's a lot of learning.
• 27:27
  SPEAKER_01: So then when an offer came from like I got I worked at Walmart.com and it was one of those.
• 27:35
  SPEAKER_01: First of all, the pay was like twice the amount of what I was making.
• 27:38
  SPEAKER_01: So I'm like big kid money.
• 27:41
  SPEAKER_01: Here I go.
• 27:42
  SPEAKER_01: That was one of the decisions.
• 27:43
  SPEAKER_01: We live in the Bay Area.
• 27:44
  SPEAKER_01: I want to I want to have a life.
• 27:46
  SPEAKER_01: I want to have a life, I want to thrive.
• 27:48
  SPEAKER_01: So yeah, it was that the decision was more how do I kind of try it out.
• 27:54
  SPEAKER_01: Obviously, politically, I'm not aligned with um with Walmart in general, but I met a lot of amazing people, like some of like the best people that are still my friends today are from that time.
• 28:08
  SPEAKER_01: And you realize if you're in the Bay Area and this company's here, the people you're gonna find some people in offices.
• 28:15
  SPEAKER_01: Also, like it was one of the first times I'm in a team and I'm being asked questions or asked to solve things in a way that realize the questions I have about this project, the ant the people that get to answer them are over in this team, which was the user experience team.
• 28:31
  SPEAKER_01: And I also became a lot of friends with a lot of them.
• 28:34
  SPEAKER_01: And I was like, how do I get to how do I get to that team?
• 28:38
  SPEAKER_01: I don't like make the pretty ad that sells DVDs for um, I want to help the user find the thing that they want to buy or um so yeah, I did not think I would be there for as long as I was.
• 28:53
  SPEAKER_01: Because I was also like, oh, I'll work there for two to three years, get some experience.
• 28:56
  SPEAKER_01: Or it's like seven years later, just and because I think the job was changing, I did eventually make it onto that team, so then my role was changing.
• 29:05
  SPEAKER_01: It was always uh each year was always just different enough that it didn't feel like I was just in my cubicle in my soul.
• 29:13
  SPEAKER_01: And then I did some more UX jobs at other bigger corporations, and I did realize I'm not a corporate girly.
• 29:20
  SPEAKER_01: I just shocker.
• 29:23
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I wish there were more people that want to listen to me, but they don't.
• 29:29
  SPEAKER_01: Um and I don't want to sit in a room.
• 29:32
  SPEAKER_01: I think it's more that the the speed at which corporations move is strip I struggle with.
• 29:39
  SPEAKER_01: Sitting in a room for weeks on end talking about the same thing.
• 29:44
  SPEAKER_00: Doesn't vibe with you.
• 29:45
  SPEAKER_01: Does not vibe with me.
• 29:46
  SPEAKER_01: Why are we still talking about this?
• 29:48
  SPEAKER_01: We made the decision, why can't we?
• 29:49
  SPEAKER_00: They're like because we have four billion shareholders that have to be.
• 29:55
  SPEAKER_00: One thing that you touched on that I think is interesting is you saw something that looked interesting to you and you positioned yourself in a way that allowed you to show your value, to move yourself onto a different team, which is not always an easy thing to do in corporate.
• 30:10
  SPEAKER_00: And so I'm curious if you remember how you even did that.
• 30:14
  SPEAKER_00: Was it that you became, you know, kind of aware enough of what they needed, and then you showed how you were able to fill that need, or how do you remember that playing out?
• 30:24
  SPEAKER_01: I think it it was a lot of like it.
• 30:26
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, this is a great example of when networking worked, but it was a lot of befriending, showing that I respect also like a lot of corporate in corporate structure teams, like my team's better than your team, or that team has this opinion.
• 30:41
  SPEAKER_01: They pit themselves against each other from the marketing perspective.
• 30:45
  SPEAKER_01: I was bringing them in, and then the people that knew me would be like, Hey, we should get Vanessa involved, she's great, like front-end design vibes, she can make it look better so that maybe the project would get through the approval process faster because all the people that can approve things can't imagine what things look like, you know, like they get fully formed before they can yes, this is give a stamp.
• 31:10
  SPEAKER_01: So we would tag team each other, and I just would play nice with the right managers and keep good relationships to when it was finally time to be like, hey, I think I just want to be on this team, and I am and I asked, what does that look like?
• 31:25
  SPEAKER_01: What do you need me to do?
• 31:27
  SPEAKER_01: Because then it's like, who else do I need to talk to?
• 31:30
  SPEAKER_01: What do I need to prove?
• 31:31
  SPEAKER_01: You want me on some other projects to see if it's really a good fit.
• 31:36
  SPEAKER_01: But I was like, as long as I'm not gonna get fired, I'm gonna figure out where my spot here is.
• 31:42
  SPEAKER_01: I think also a lot of companies, hopefully that's still true at the time, they would rather hire from within and just totally you know, move someone up and so it wasn't uncommon that some roles people would flip-flop or move around to what suited them bet better.
• 32:00
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 32:01
  SPEAKER_01: And then we started my own thing, and that was a whole beast while working.
• 32:05
  SPEAKER_01: A lot of these things overlap because starting your own business can't always sustain you fully.
• 32:09
  SPEAKER_01: Um so I was running an event business and working at a giant tech company.
• 32:16
  SPEAKER_00: So yeah, maybe I feel like there's some people who are considering that or have considered that and have not either made the jump fully yet or are curious about what that looks like for people.
• 32:30
  SPEAKER_00: Sometimes there's a glamorization of what it means to have a side hustle, but it's like that's not it's really hard.
• 32:36
  SPEAKER_00: There's a lot of trade-offs and a lot of sacrifice that you have to make in order to allow those things to be true in your life.
• 32:42
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, they were literally running events, right?
• 32:44
  SPEAKER_00: And creating these beautiful experiences for people, and so that's not something you can do from a behind a screen fully.
• 32:49
  SPEAKER_00: But what do you think was the biggest indication for you that you were ready to fully leave your job and go all in on your own business?
• 33:00
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I think when it became not something that I could schedule around anymore, at first it was the events weren't as big, so we could do them in the evenings or on the weekends, make the things and then have the event on the weekend.
• 33:14
  SPEAKER_01: But then once we started getting larger events and more frequent events, I'm working like 80 hours a week, and one of these needs to needs to go.
• 33:26
  SPEAKER_01: And at the time my husband, he had the healthcare, he had a job.
• 33:31
  SPEAKER_01: We both were and we worked together, so both of us were doing this, and it was really a lot of like how do we time manage our work time, our side hustle business time, and then our actual like relationship time.
• 33:49
  SPEAKER_01: So it was a lot of management.
• 33:51
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, but yeah, it was fun, it was crazy, it was I think that's like the fastest my brain had ever been moving.
• 33:58
  SPEAKER_01: And then we have an employee.
• 33:59
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, yeah, yeah.
• 34:00
  SPEAKER_01: Great, we love Ida.
• 34:02
  SPEAKER_01: Um that was when you're like, okay, great, now someone can be doing things.
• 34:07
  SPEAKER_01: You just kind of build to like how do we make this something that feels less like we're doing it in our garage.
• 34:15
  SPEAKER_01: Um like a real business, like a real business, and yeah, each stuff kind of presented itself at the right time.
• 34:21
  SPEAKER_01: So yeah, I don't know.
• 34:22
  SPEAKER_01: Again, it was never none of it was ever premeditated.
• 34:25
  SPEAKER_00: I know, I know.
• 34:26
  SPEAKER_00: I feel that's so real for so many people.
• 34:28
  SPEAKER_00: I think anytime we're asked to reflect on our journey, I I cannot tell you that I've ever had a conversation where the woman's like, oh, well, I decided I wanted to do unless it's my friend is a, you know, like my pediatric researcher friend.
• 34:42
  SPEAKER_00: That's a whole other right conversation.
• 34:44
  SPEAKER_00: You have to kind of know what you want to do way back when.
• 34:47
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 34:47
  SPEAKER_00: But for the 90% of us, it's I saw an opportunity, I ran through the door full steam ahead, and figured it out as I went.
• 34:56
  SPEAKER_00: And I think if I could teach my kids anything, it would be how to see opportunity and to allow yourself to know that it doesn't have to be the perfect decision or the right decision or the thing that's gonna last forever.
• 35:08
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, but all of these things lead to something down the road.
• 35:12
  SPEAKER_01: There's also I'm a big like intuition or like gut decision maker that hasn't already been made clear.
• 35:19
  SPEAKER_01: But tuning into that is like if I get excited, my brother was listening to a podcast, and I'm sure it's a book that I'm supposed to be reading, but the guy was talking about how to use your intuition and what the three main things that you should look for are your dread level, your excitement level, and your fear level.
• 35:38
  SPEAKER_01: And obviously, if there's dread, don't do it.
• 35:40
  SPEAKER_01: But then this balance of things that are exciting and a little scary are usually what you should be doing.
• 35:48
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm like number one, excited always.
• 35:50
  SPEAKER_01: I'm like, yes, that sounds great.
• 35:52
  SPEAKER_01: And then I freak out like how.
• 35:54
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, because we don't need to think about the how right away.
• 35:57
  SPEAKER_01: Then we've but you figured it out.
• 35:58
  SPEAKER_01: That's when you know you figure it out because if the excitement is there, it means you're gonna put what you have into it to make it come true.
• 36:07
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, yes.
• 36:08
  SPEAKER_00: I can also say the amount of women that have talked about what it means to tap into their knowing and what it means to trust themselves and follow their gut.
• 36:19
  SPEAKER_00: I do think that many times women are taught over the years how to not listen to that and how to try and appease, you know, whatever's happening in front of them.
• 36:28
  SPEAKER_00: Do you have I because I I really think because you and I are so much in that space now where we're constantly trying to tune into that and think about how we're allowing our intuition to lead?
• 36:41
  SPEAKER_00: I forget sometimes that that actually still feels quite foreign to some people.
• 36:44
  SPEAKER_00: That is actually not at all how they prefer to make decisions, or it's not the way that they're tapped into thinking about decision making.
• 36:52
  SPEAKER_00: So, are there practices that you have found over the years that you would say help you with that?
• 37:00
  SPEAKER_00: Is it getting quiet?
• 37:01
  SPEAKER_00: Is it allowing yourself to actually speak to yourself?
• 37:04
  SPEAKER_00: Right, there's so many different ways I think this shows up for people, but do you have a sense of kind of how you've honed that for yourself?
• 37:12
  SPEAKER_00: I wish I has it just always been there, has it just always been there?
• 37:15
  SPEAKER_01: Like I wish, I really wish I did, but it really has always been there, and I think that's one of the I'm still now learning how to articulate it because for so long I've always just like made decisions and then had to like rewind to figure out why did I make that?
• 37:33
  SPEAKER_01: Or this person wants an academic reason or they want some scientific proof for me to explain why this design or this placement or this whatever it is is the one to go with, and I'm just like, no, you just do it.
• 37:48
  SPEAKER_01: Look amazing and it's gonna work.
• 37:51
  SPEAKER_01: I usually do the thing and then I slow myself down and find references of what else is out there, where did I get this?
• 38:00
  SPEAKER_01: Is it from something?
• 38:01
  SPEAKER_01: Is it from something I've seen or heard or from a different that's the other thing?
• 38:07
  SPEAKER_01: I pull a lot of like at least for work and design intuition creating.
• 38:12
  SPEAKER_01: I don't look at I work in beverage, I don't look at other beverage companies what I want to do.
• 38:19
  SPEAKER_01: There's this tendency to do a formula of like, well, this company is doing this, we should just copy them.
• 38:25
  SPEAKER_01: And it's like, no, I'm looking at like Fashion Week and you know, women's sports or music or some some other industry that's having some moments and inspiring me.
• 38:35
  SPEAKER_01: I'm sure it's inspiring other people.
• 38:37
  SPEAKER_01: Let's be a part of that conversation, not just checking some boxes of like this is what this should look like.
• 38:44
  SPEAKER_01: I'm like, huh?
• 38:45
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 38:45
  SPEAKER_01: Who's who says?
• 38:46
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 38:47
  SPEAKER_01: At some point, that formula was somebody's this is a new way to do it.
• 38:53
  SPEAKER_00: It's so interesting you say that because I find even with my consulting work, I struggle.
• 39:00
  SPEAKER_00: Some people always want to hear, well, what's the process?
• 39:02
  SPEAKER_00: What's your framework?
• 39:03
  SPEAKER_00: What's the thing?
• 39:04
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm like, well, it really depends.
• 39:06
  SPEAKER_00: It depends on who I'm working with, it depends on what their challenge is, it depends on what we're looking at.
• 39:10
  SPEAKER_00: I don't have a formula because that doesn't work for everyone.
• 39:15
  SPEAKER_00: And I have had a hard time articulating that because I can understand from the person's point of view that is thinking about engaging with services.
• 39:24
  SPEAKER_00: I want to know that what I'm gonna walk through is gonna get me to where I want to go.
• 39:29
  SPEAKER_00: And so I've had to try and find ways to talk about it in a way that I'm not used to talking about it.
• 39:34
  SPEAKER_00: I've been likening it to when a chef has a recipe that they love that they've made for you know 30 years, and then you're asking them to write it out for a cookbook, and they're like, I don't know what the hell, like how much salt?
• 39:48
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 39:49
  SPEAKER_00: And they talk about how they have to go through the iterative process however many times to actually figure out how much of the thing that they actually put into their recipe.
• 39:59
  SPEAKER_00: And I get it and I understand it, and I I validate it.
• 40:02
  SPEAKER_00: And yet there's times that I'm like, but can't we all just trust that we all know what we're doing?
• 40:06
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, yeah.
• 40:07
  SPEAKER_01: We ran into that with the in the in, especially in the wedding industry, it's so traditional and such a like these are the steps, and one of the things that we were trying to do to differentiate, and also just was the way we worked was this is an individual, like a wedding is so personal, so yeah, there is no checklist.
• 40:25
  SPEAKER_01: You can do whatever you want, yes, as long as you feel good about it.
• 40:30
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, going back to the knowing and the gut is just like I know when I see it, that's what I would want to look at.
• 40:37
  SPEAKER_01: So I think I think the more we do that generally, we we won't become just like cookie cookie robots.
• 40:47
  unknown: Cookie robots.
• 40:48
  SPEAKER_00: Cookie cutter robots.
• 40:49
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, I got a cookie robot zones kind of awesome.
• 40:54
  SPEAKER_00: When you think back to early days of UX design all the way through to today, leading creative direction for this incredibly fast-growing and fast-moving startup.
• 41:08
  SPEAKER_00: Do you feel like your meaning of success has changed over the years?
• 41:13
  SPEAKER_00: Not success from a work product perspective, but what success means for you.
• 41:19
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, I think there was a point when I was like, oh, I can climb a ladder and lead a team and make a large number of monies and do all and always I knew that the feeling of success was that I wasn't gonna have to worry on the day-to-day.
• 41:37
  SPEAKER_01: I just wanted to be not worried that I could go on the trip when I want, I could buy the couch if I needed a new couch, like be comfortable, not worry.
• 41:49
  SPEAKER_01: Now I feel like there's a level of worry forever.
• 41:57
  SPEAKER_01: And maybe that'll go away once you've hit a different like age mark.
• 42:01
  SPEAKER_01: Also, just generally the world makes me worry.
• 42:04
  SPEAKER_01: Um maybe because it is moving so fast and seems like nobody has a plan?
• 42:14
  SPEAKER_01: This is when I would love to know someone's like what is the step where we're ultimately go.
• 42:19
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, what do we Can we Can I hear your process on how to fix this?
• 42:24
  SPEAKER_00: Um like will the government be shut down forever?
• 42:30
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, will people still want to buy water?
• 42:33
  unknown: Yeah.
• 42:34
  SPEAKER_01: Will I be able to sell my water?
• 42:37
  SPEAKER_01: Um there's a level of worry now that I feel like is separate from my day-to-day job and career.
• 42:46
  SPEAKER_01: Um from a career perspective, I think there's parts that are still the same.
• 42:52
  SPEAKER_01: I want to keep growing, I want to keep, I want to run a team, I want to keep being challenged, work on fun projects.
• 43:01
  SPEAKER_01: But um yeah, I think I've never had a like, oh, I must work at this, like that working at this company means I've made it, or being in this role and being the like CEO or VP, whatever means I've made it.
• 43:18
  SPEAKER_01: Because there's gonna be new issues at every level and more pressures, and that pressure might not be what I want, because I still also I want to be able to find go back to what we were talking about at the beginning, where is that balance between I can do my job, be good at it, and show up, and then also make time for myself to do whatever that is that I need creatively or physically or mentally.
• 43:46
  SPEAKER_00: I would imagine I think, yeah, there's always it's like this ever evolving thing, right?
• 43:53
  SPEAKER_00: What are we what how will we know when it feels good?
• 43:56
  SPEAKER_00: I think that's what I keep coming for myself.
• 43:58
  SPEAKER_00: I'm like, how will I know when I feel like Like, this is this is fulfillment, or this is what I'm meant to be giving to the world, right?
• 44:07
  SPEAKER_00: Like that in the same way for me has changed how do I want to create harmony across all the things in my life that I care deeply about.
• 44:14
  SPEAKER_00: That holds so much more weight for me now.
• 44:17
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 44:17
  SPEAKER_00: And I ask this question because I think I went through such an upheaval, you know, two and a half years ago that forced me into rethinking everything about my like professional identity and and how much I had my identity wrapped up in all of that or the things that I told myself I cared about.
• 44:36
  SPEAKER_00: And none of it was wrong or bad, but I had to really question it if I wanted to get intentional and seriously clear about how I wanted to move forward.
• 44:45
  SPEAKER_00: And I think I look at it now as a giant gift of being able to even ask myself those questions because that those moments are so rare in our lives.
• 44:54
  SPEAKER_00: I would never wish what happened, you know, on anyone.
• 44:57
  SPEAKER_00: But what I do hope for everyone is they have at least some opportunity to ask those questions because I it's sometimes it takes these huge upheavals or these huge things to get us to kind of turn those wheels.
• 45:11
  SPEAKER_00: But you've always been so intentional about thinking about what you care about and what you allow into your life, and so not everybody, I think, it is able to articulate that in a way where and it to your point it's never perfect, it's always evolving, but it is the what is the right for right now.
• 45:30
  SPEAKER_00: And I think so many of us would probably answer similarly, which is well, when we graduated, it was oh, well, you're gonna go get the I mean I I bounced around San Francisco on those frickin' five-inch heels for years, like a big dum-dum, thinking that that was like, you know, I got my it's so dumb.
• 45:46
  SPEAKER_00: I now have the bunions to prove it.
• 45:48
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, like this idea.
• 45:51
  SPEAKER_00: We grew up in this girl boss era where it was you can have it all, and you know, you're gonna be a baddie and you're gonna do da-da.
• 45:58
  SPEAKER_01: But there was no conversation about well, that can look real different depending on your interest level, depending on what success means to you, and depending on who you had around you to give you those opportunities.
• 46:12
  SPEAKER_01: The amount of times I've felt like, and part of the reason why I was like, I'm not a corporate girly, is everyone says they want everyone to be like authentic and honest, and this is a safe space, and we're here to brainstorm and and you know, tell me how you feel.
• 46:25
  SPEAKER_01: As soon as they hear how you feel or what you think about something, and it hurts their little ego, you get you get silence.
• 46:36
  SPEAKER_01: Um I was tired of feeling like nobody puts baby in the corner.
• 46:41
  SPEAKER_01: Like quiet and small, and at each job and phase or whatever, there were always these moments where it did feel like in my body, this feels good.
• 46:52
  SPEAKER_01: Like this is my rhythm's good, I have great people, the project it felt good, and then it would, you know, it dips, and then it comes back, and we'd have a great event, or I get an awesome freelance client.
• 47:05
  SPEAKER_01: There's always these moments where I'm like, oh, I'm doing the right thing.
• 47:07
  SPEAKER_01: This is feeling fun and easy, or I mean not easy, but just like feeling in the flow.
• 47:14
  SPEAKER_01: In the flow.
• 47:15
  SPEAKER_01: So I hope those moments keep just like popping up.
• 47:19
  SPEAKER_01: But yeah, it is like, yeah, we were told to go down this one path, and then when you realize that path, you're basically set up to fail.
• 47:27
  SPEAKER_01: So I don't know.
• 47:28
  SPEAKER_00: I think you just put it perfectly.
• 47:30
  SPEAKER_00: It's the pursuit of the flow.
• 47:31
  SPEAKER_00: You're not gonna always have that.
• 47:33
  SPEAKER_00: It's not ever going to be every day you wake up, but maybe some love out for that.
• 47:37
  SPEAKER_00: For many people, it's like, how do you at least bring more of that into your life so that you're in that more than you're not?
• 47:45
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that is what I'm really interested in is what are the things that allow for full expression of your talents and what you can contribute and where you find interest and you know, joy, whatever you want to call it.
• 47:58
  SPEAKER_00: On that note, last question is uh the one question I did know about.
• 48:04
  SPEAKER_00: I know, I know.
• 48:06
  SPEAKER_00: I can't spring it on anybody anymore because if you've listened, then you know.
• 48:09
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 48:10
  SPEAKER_00: But it has run the gamut.
• 48:11
  SPEAKER_00: Every person has such a different answer, and I think that's why I like it, because I I like to lessen the intensity of what the word legacy means, because I think ultimately that's what we're all in pursuit of, which is what does legacy what does building it mean to you, and what is the impact you want to have.
• 48:32
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so Vanessa, what does building a legacy mean to you?
• 48:41
  SPEAKER_01: Uh it has meant when I had the event business, there was definitely like a feeling at a certain point when I was like, this is like we could have an empire.
• 48:54
  SPEAKER_01: This could be a thing, we could build a thing and change, uh make a little dent in this very traditional industry and be known.
• 49:02
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that's the closest I felt at a time when maybe like we would get press or you know, be baby famous in our circle.
• 49:10
  SPEAKER_00: Uh and you and they were, by the way.
• 49:13
  SPEAKER_00: Like they there was write-ups in Martha Stewart magazine, let's be clear.
• 49:16
  SPEAKER_00: So this was not like a taste at it, it was uh not to interrupt, but it's important because this isn't about a celebration of the wins, and that is an incredible thing to have happen.
• 49:26
  SPEAKER_01: So yes, and and it was those moments that were like, oh, this is people want to talk about us, and this could be a thing.
• 49:33
  SPEAKER_01: So there was like this could be our legacy to to what we built.
• 49:38
  SPEAKER_01: Um and then the world stopped, and so did that.
• 49:42
  SPEAKER_01: So, you know, then you have I had this whole identity shift, career shift, all of it uh at once, and you're like, oh, what is now my purpose on this planet?
• 49:54
  SPEAKER_01: And obviously, I'm still gonna keep working and chugging along.
• 49:58
  SPEAKER_01: I think the more I've been working, and I I don't have children, and I'm not gonna have children.
• 50:09
  SPEAKER_01: So there's that part of the legacy um that we've all been told is the thing.
• 50:16
  SPEAKER_01: And even today, my dad's like, my legacy to you.
• 50:19
  SPEAKER_01: I'm like, oh thanks, Dan.
• 50:24
  SPEAKER_01: Look forward to knowing what that will be.
• 50:26
  SPEAKER_01: Um but you know, I I think about Maddie.
• 50:32
  SPEAKER_01: I think about all my other friends who have children, and can I be an example?
• 50:39
  SPEAKER_01: Is there like to your point of like there's no one way of doing something?
• 50:43
  SPEAKER_01: I told you you're gonna make me cry.
• 50:44
  SPEAKER_00: Damn it.
• 50:45
  SPEAKER_00: No, you're making me cry.
• 50:47
  SPEAKER_00: You just brought up my kid and how much she's obsessed with you.
• 50:49
  SPEAKER_01: At least birthed me.
• 50:51
  SPEAKER_00: Um you know what?
• 50:53
  SPEAKER_00: We do need to say, my child definitely was birthed by Vanessa.
• 50:59
  SPEAKER_00: I cannot figure out how the hell she was birthed by me because she is a mini Vanessa and it is wild.
• 51:07
  SPEAKER_01: There are so many times when you tell me stories, and I'm just letting I'm just like.
• 51:13
  SPEAKER_00: And she loves.
• 51:16
  SPEAKER_00: If I say Aunt Vanessa did it, then that means that it's cool and it's okay.
• 51:21
  SPEAKER_00: She literally, I know this is about you, but you just brought it up, so I have to give a little side, which is Maddie.
• 51:28
  SPEAKER_00: I actually wrote about this too.
• 51:29
  SPEAKER_00: She is in this era of like, mommy, I'm an incredible goalie.
• 51:33
  SPEAKER_00: Hey, mommy, look at this awesome drawing I did.
• 51:35
  SPEAKER_00: Hey, mommy, like basically look how incredible I am, and I'm loving that for her, and I don't ever want to dampen that because I want her to know that it's okay to, it's not only okay, but you should be celebrating the things that you are great at.
• 51:51
  SPEAKER_00: But specifically, she wants to be a great goalie because her auntie Nessa was a goalie.
• 51:56
  SPEAKER_00: And so for her, it's like this natural to have this incredible example of what it means to be a strong woman in this way.
• 52:04
  SPEAKER_00: It has just been so beautiful to watch her and her vision of you.
• 52:09
  SPEAKER_00: So, yes.
• 52:10
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, and I am excited.
• 52:11
  SPEAKER_01: I have my gloves and goalie shirt.
• 52:14
  SPEAKER_01: She can she can have.
• 52:16
  SPEAKER_00: Oh my god.
• 52:18
  SPEAKER_01: We may even talk about the I know you talked about it with some other people about the power of women and or girls in sports and like what that means.
• 52:24
  SPEAKER_00: Oh my god, how have we not even gone there?
• 52:26
  SPEAKER_00: Listen, Vanessa.
• 52:27
  SPEAKER_01: We need like episode three.
• 52:29
  SPEAKER_00: We're gonna have to.
• 52:30
  SPEAKER_00: Vanessa's uh partner and girlfriend is uh also a badass who I'm also gonna interview at some point, and she is an incredible force in women's sports, and they have both been really, really instrumental in helping me understand this world as the like, yes, as the like ballet dancer that didn't know anything about sports that ended up running cross-country because she didn't know shit about sports.
• 52:56
  SPEAKER_00: Sorry, I totally took you way off track and you're just sharing the beautiful.
• 52:59
  SPEAKER_01: But this that's a prime example.
• 53:01
  SPEAKER_01: Like, I w want Maddie, I want other family, friends, and children around, or even people I work with that are young and coming up to just know that there's a lot of ways to get somewhere.
• 53:14
  SPEAKER_01: Um and that you can forge your own path and that you ha everybody has a voice.
• 53:20
  SPEAKER_01: Obviously, there's the I want to leave the world a better place.
• 53:24
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I don't know how much I can affect that, but I'm sure there will be pieces that that um I can contribute to.
• 53:34
  SPEAKER_01: I want to be an example of integrity and authenticity because I really don't know how to be any other way.
• 53:40
  SPEAKER_01: This is a really good question, and I'm glad you're seeing people.
• 53:44
  SPEAKER_01: It does make you think.
• 53:45
  SPEAKER_01: You're like, what am I?
• 53:46
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know.
• 53:47
  SPEAKER_01: We're gonna, I'm gonna also it's it's very sad because you're like, well, we did.
• 53:51
  SPEAKER_01: Like, I don't know.
• 53:53
  SPEAKER_00: But legacy, that's what's so cool about it, is it is what is being actively built while you are, right?
• 53:58
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe we won't know the way others talk about it when we're not here any longer, but we do get to be a part of actively shaping what we think that looks like.
• 54:07
  SPEAKER_00: And I don't want to speak into it for you, but it's so obvious for me that the integrity and the authenticity piece, it's been the through line of who you've been forever and always.
• 54:20
  SPEAKER_00: And I know it has been a blessing and a curse in the same way, right?
• 54:23
  SPEAKER_00: Like if you're in corporate and you're navigating those waters when you can't just slap a smile on your face because you're being told to, right?
• 54:31
  SPEAKER_00: That's an incredible characteristic to hold and to honor, and it just meant you were not in the right place.
• 54:37
  SPEAKER_00: And thank God that you did not shape shift your way to continue to mold yourself into something that would eventually suck your soul because that is what happens sometimes, right?
• 54:48
  SPEAKER_00: And I remember when I was navigating my own identity stuff post you know, last company implosion, and the first person I thought of was you, and like how you've never allowed yourself to be shaped and molded by the game.
• 55:06
  SPEAKER_00: And I had spent many years getting real good at the game, and so to shed some of that is deeply uncomfortable and vulnerable and scary.
• 55:17
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and so it made me think about how you've lived your life with like your heart on your sleeve at all times, and it's what made me fall in love with you, it's what makes other people fall in love with you, but it also is what makes navigating a traditional career an interesting landscape, right?
• 55:34
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it's hard.
• 55:41
  SPEAKER_01: I can't.
• 55:42
  SPEAKER_01: I'm still getting it's funny because I'm actually getting the same feedback that I've been getting since like second grade.
• 55:48
  SPEAKER_00: It's been like this, my changing.
• 55:51
  SPEAKER_01: I'm sorry to tell you, but you we need to find a whole new way that we can all work together because I'm not necessarily always the problem.
• 56:01
  SPEAKER_01: I'm not coming in like crazy.
• 56:04
  SPEAKER_01: I do, I put I call it my mom voice.
• 56:06
  SPEAKER_01: I put on my like and it but it's a like it's a it's actually physically exhausting to like turn on like cookie robot?
• 56:19
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 56:20
  SPEAKER_01: Corporate corporate Vanessa.
• 56:22
  SPEAKER_01: Hi.
• 56:23
  SPEAKER_01: You were amazing, and we should do our own show together.
• 56:29
  SPEAKER_00: I'm here for it.
• 56:30
  SPEAKER_00: I love it.
• 56:31
  SPEAKER_00: These are also questions we don't ask friends that we've had for I just like call you to fish about all the the whatever.
• 56:41
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, so it's a treat.
• 56:43
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, and when this show has a logo, it's gonna be because Vanessa designed it.
• 56:46
  SPEAKER_00: So just get ready, y'all.
• 56:47
  SPEAKER_00: It's gonna be amazing.
• 56:48
  SPEAKER_01: If you don't like it, keep your mouth shut because nobody wants that's also true, but it's gonna be amazing.
• 56:55
  SPEAKER_00: So I love you.
• 56:58
  SPEAKER_01: I love you.
• 56:58
  SPEAKER_01: This was really fun, and I'm really proud of you.
• 57:01
  SPEAKER_01: I think this would be so cool.
• 57:03
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, I don't know if you've already I think we all need to have a big retreat dinner.
• 57:07
  SPEAKER_01: I'm putting it out on the video.
• 57:08
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, yes, okay, okay.
• 57:17
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I love this.
• 57:19
  SPEAKER_00: I love this idea.
• 57:20
  SPEAKER_00: And yes, I think the let's just start speaking it into existence because um to get these all these women have such wildly unique stories and such incredible perspectives, but the through line is that every single one is in a place in their lives where they're being intentional about thinking about what their future looks like.
• 57:39
  SPEAKER_00: And I think there's a benefit of reaching a certain age, right?
• 57:42
  SPEAKER_00: Where we're like, oh, except for my one young woman who was also incredible and was asking questions that I would have never thought to ask that age.
• 57:51
  SPEAKER_01: We should uh uh definitely speak it into existence and you know who to call to help plan an event.
• 57:59
  SPEAKER_00: Kind of a big deal retreat.
• 58:01
  SPEAKER_00: Here we come.
• 58:04
  SPEAKER_00: I love you.
• 58:04
  SPEAKER_01: I have a huge deal.
• 58:06
  SPEAKER_01: I love you.
• 58:07
  SPEAKER_00: See you soon.
• 58:08
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 58:08
  SPEAKER_01: Bye.
• 58:09
  SPEAKER_01: Bye.
• 58:11
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you so much for listening and spending some of your time with me here.
• 58:15
  SPEAKER_00: I hope our conversation sparked some new ideas for you.
• 58:19
  SPEAKER_00: If you enjoyed the episode, please make sure to hit subscribe so you don't miss what's next.
• 58:24
  SPEAKER_00: And if you're ready for even more tools and stories, head on over to beldenstrategies.com slash newsletter.
• 58:32
  SPEAKER_00: I share fresh insights, stories, and tools for women leaders every week.
• 58:37
  SPEAKER_00: Until next time, keep building, keep evolving, and remember that you are kind of a big deal.