Latest / Crosswalk Talk: Celebrity Christian Interviews / Cliffe and Stuart Knechtle Unpack Apologetics on College Campuses

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Cliffe and Stuart Knechtle Unpack Apologetics on College Campuses · Crosswalk Talk: Celebrity Christian Interviews

0:02
Speaker 1: Life Audio. Hey, Cliff and Stewart, thanks for joining me.
0:06
Speaker 2: Thanks for having us Michael.
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Speaker 1: Thanks by Gaul and Stuart Connectley, authors of the new
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Speaker 1: book Demolishing Doubt. Both of you are well known for
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Speaker 1: your apologetic administry ministry Give Me an Answer, and for
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Speaker 1: your podcast and for the YouTube videos that are going
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Speaker 1: viral even as I talk. Give Me, Give Me an
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Speaker 1: Answer dot orgus the website. You've spent years guys engaging
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Speaker 1: skeptics on college campuses.
0:29
Speaker 3: How did that start and why did you want to
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Speaker 3: do it?
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Speaker 2: Well, it started forty six years ago before Stewart was born,
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Speaker 2: on the beaches to Forta Loda Delle, Florida, during an
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Speaker 2: inter varsity spring evangelism project. I stood up and began
0:43
Speaker 2: to preach, and students opped off their towels sunbathing, and
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Speaker 2: they started firing questions at me. So I scrapped my
0:51
Speaker 2: outline and started answering their questions, and after about an hour,
0:53
Speaker 2: I said, my voice is tired. I'm going back to
0:55
Speaker 2: the hotel. And gradually univarsity staff and students said, hey,
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Speaker 2: would you try this on our campus? And so Suny
1:01
Speaker 2: Albany was the first campus we started on, and it's
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Speaker 2: been a blast ever since we haven't stopped. Why do
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Speaker 2: we do it? We do it because we want to
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Speaker 2: get to people who don't believe in Christ. We don't
1:12
Speaker 2: want to tell Christians how to accept Christ, and that
1:15
Speaker 2: we found that going outside into the open air was
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Speaker 2: a great, great way of switching the percentages in the
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Speaker 2: crowd from ninety percent Christian to ten percent non Christian
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Speaker 2: to ninety percent non Christian and ten percent Christian. So
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Speaker 2: that's why we've been doing it for forty six years
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Speaker 2: and it's been a privilege to have Stewart joined me
1:33
Speaker 2: in it.
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Speaker 1: Stewart, did you initially want to do this or were
1:37
Speaker 1: you kind of hesitating first?
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Speaker 2: Well, it really blew up. Even when I was in
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Speaker 2: high school with my brothers out of their basements. It's
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Speaker 2: really hard to get any type of traction going in
1:51
Speaker 2: our town. It's an incredibly wealthy, secular town. But this
1:54
Speaker 2: type of Q and A really pumped up partying rabble
1:59
Speaker 2: rousers in our high school. So they wanted to do it.
2:01
Speaker 2: So I think that's when I really started to get
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Speaker 2: excited about it, and then naturally my faith really grew
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Speaker 2: and really it led me to seminary out of books
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Speaker 2: like Rabbi Zacharias's and others. I despised reading, but all
2:14
Speaker 2: of a sudden I loved reading all because of apologetics
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Speaker 2: and theological books. That kind of led me to seminary
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Speaker 2: and then just naturally this is one of my definitely
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Speaker 2: my favorite ministries at the church.
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Speaker 1: So how have the questions changed from gen z or
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Speaker 1: young people? Of course, how have the questions from young
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Speaker 1: people changed over the years.
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Speaker 2: They really haven't changed in content, but they've become more
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Speaker 2: firmly embedded in our culture. Truth has been relative in
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Speaker 2: the United States on university campuses for years and years
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Speaker 2: and years, but now there is a commitment to relativism
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Speaker 2: that is profound. It's expressed in such statements as perception
2:54
Speaker 2: defines reality. You've got to be kidding me. If I
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Speaker 2: perceive that I'm in London, England right now, it doesn't
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Speaker 2: mean it's true. That's a false perception. So that's more
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Speaker 2: firmly embedded. Science versus the Bible, science versus faith in
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Speaker 2: Christ is more firmly embedded. It's always been a problem,
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Speaker 2: but it just seems emotionally to be more firmly embedded. Thirdly,
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Speaker 2: although there is not much change in the content of
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Speaker 2: the questions. There's definitely a change in the emotional makeup
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Speaker 2: of the students. My dad, when he was eighteen, sat
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Speaker 2: in the Alps of Switzerland holding a gun as Hitler's
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Speaker 2: panzer divisions approached Switzerland. He talked with his father was
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Speaker 2: down on the front lines. Unfortunately, Mussolini, I think, called
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Speaker 2: Hitler up and said, don't go into Switzerland. My money's
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Speaker 2: in there. But that's a far cry emotionally for an
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Speaker 2: eighteen year old to be facing Hitler's Panzer divisions from
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Speaker 2: students who, when Donald Trump wins an election have to
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Speaker 2: go to a crying room for counseling. Because President Trump
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Speaker 2: won the election. That is some emotional for Jill, the
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Speaker 2: likes of which I've never seen, and so that has
4:03
Speaker 2: altered a bit of our intensity, a bit of our
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Speaker 2: approach to issues.
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Speaker 1: Let's talk about Demolishing doubt. What inspired you to write
4:11
Speaker 1: Demolishing Doubt? What will readers encounter in it?
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Speaker 2: Demolishing doubt is essentially the way I handle atheists. When
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Speaker 2: someone steps forward and says I'm an atheist, I'm an agnostic,
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Speaker 2: I first go out, Okay, fine, I understand. Now let's
4:24
Speaker 2: talk about the evidence for the existence of God. Then
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Speaker 2: once we get through that and a person says, okay,
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Speaker 2: I'm open to God's existence, then the next question is, well,
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Speaker 2: who is this God? What is this God like? And
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Speaker 2: that's where Jesus Christ comes into the picture. But the
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Speaker 2: obvious question is can you get a reliable historical picture
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Speaker 2: of Jesus by reading the New Testament gospels? And so
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Speaker 2: the second point is what is the evidence that Matthew, Mark,
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Speaker 2: Luke and John give us accurate historical information for this
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Speaker 2: Jesus of Nazareth. Then after we work through that, the
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Speaker 2: next question is, well, what does the historical evidence point
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Speaker 2: to regarding the reliability of Christ? Is he a quack?
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Speaker 2: Or does the evidence point to him being the truth?
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Speaker 2: And then after that, once we agree that indeed, the
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Speaker 2: evidence of his lifestyle is teachings, the teachings obviously of
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Speaker 2: an ethical genius. Thirdly the way he dies, loving and
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Speaker 2: forgiving his enemies, and then fourth through the way he
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Speaker 2: rises from the dead. That points to him being reliable.
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Speaker 2: Now we've got to take a step of faith, and
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Speaker 2: what is biblical faith. Biblical faith is a response to evidence.
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Speaker 2: So that's what the book Demolishing Doubt is basically all
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Speaker 2: about going from evidence to the existence of God, to
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Speaker 2: evidence for the reliability of the New Testament Gospels, to
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Speaker 2: evidence for the historical reliability of Christ, and then to
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Speaker 2: what is real faith. But I would say too, just
5:37
Speaker 2: to add on to that, the agent first came to
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Speaker 2: Cliff and said, your initial book, give me an answer
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Speaker 2: was a lot of these pastel arguments did very well.
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Speaker 2: But now let's build upon that and also have narratives
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Speaker 2: we've in and have chapters build upon each other. And
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Speaker 2: so he's got those classical arguments. But then also the
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Speaker 2: story is tied in which a lot of folks kind
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Speaker 2: of really enjoyed. And then Zonovan has said a lot
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Speaker 2: we were tantalized by kind of how we compliment each other.
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Speaker 2: We are not writers, unfortunately like you, Michael, we don't
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Speaker 2: have that gift, but we do compliment each other. I
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Speaker 2: hope very well on college campuses and in these podcasts,
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Speaker 2: because he goes after those arguments which really have built
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Speaker 2: the whole ministry. And I have a background in psychology,
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Speaker 2: mental health and family systems, and so what I try
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Speaker 2: and do is bring in, you know, all the terms,
6:28
Speaker 2: you know, how do you deal with expressive individualism, How
6:31
Speaker 2: do you deal with moral therapeutic deism, how do you
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Speaker 2: deal with the therapeutic age? Michael Reef, Philip Reef, And
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Speaker 2: so I try and deal with all those and say, hey,
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Speaker 2: here's how our generation is really connected to these terms,
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Speaker 2: and how do we bring the Gospel in it in
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Speaker 2: such a way where you can feel a lot of
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Speaker 2: healing through the gospel. And we've seen one of my
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Speaker 2: favorite things to see a very secular person's blinders just
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Speaker 2: come off and start to understand what we're talking about.
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Speaker 2: And then the thing I like the most is somebody
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Speaker 2: who's who now understands, hey, Jesus actually is the way,
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Speaker 2: the truth and the life, and they're sobbing about it,
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Speaker 2: and you physically look at them and you say, this
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Speaker 2: is the last person I'd ever guess we'll become a
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Speaker 2: Christian And they just have the tears running and saying,
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Speaker 2: there's nothing like the Gospel that ever would have healed me,
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Speaker 2: no pill, no any type of crutch. And so that's
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Speaker 2: what gets really exciting. And I think we have the
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Speaker 2: one two punch, hopefully which he brings the arguments, and
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Speaker 2: then I kind of bring that a little bit of
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Speaker 2: the psychotherapy and they work together I think pretty well.
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Speaker 2: Or another way to put it is he brings the nice,
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Speaker 2: hard arguments and breaks down to somebody who's very fragile,
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Speaker 2: and then I try, and you know, gently, with my counseling,
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Speaker 2: put the pieces back together. So so we joke around
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Speaker 2: like that, but hopefully it compliments each other fairly well.
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Speaker 2: A Zondervan really liked that for the book, So.
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Speaker 3: Yeah, I think you guess compliment each other really well.
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Speaker 1: You know, at the core of you of industry guys,
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Speaker 1: this is this a belief that people should be able
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Speaker 1: to defend their faiths and there aren't answers to tough questions.
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Speaker 1: Several years ago, there were several high profile Christians who
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Speaker 1: walked away from the faith, and I was struck by
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Speaker 1: the fact that some of the questions that troubled them
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Speaker 1: were basic questions that you know, that I was able
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Speaker 1: to answer years ago. So my question to both of
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Speaker 1: you is, why do you questions? Why does apologetics matter
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Speaker 1: so much right now in this kind of season of deconstruction,
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Speaker 1: even though we're kind of a one tail end of that.
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Speaker 1: Why does this subject matter so much?
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Speaker 2: Oh gosh, yeah, I'm trying to convince churches to get
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Speaker 2: apologetics ministries. Many of them still are very against it,
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Speaker 2: oftentimes because the pastor is very insecure, not wanting to
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Speaker 2: get questions that doesn't know the answers to. So that's
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Speaker 2: oftentimes to tied to culture as well and denomination. But
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Speaker 2: it's so important right now because so many people are
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Speaker 2: seeking after different answers to hard questions related to Hey,
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Speaker 2: I lost a loved one during COVID, or hey the
9:17
Speaker 2: divorce rate is over fifty percent and my parents have divorced.
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Speaker 2: Why and is there something more? Are there going to
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Speaker 2: be relationships past the grave because I am really chewed
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Speaker 2: up with the death of a loved one, or hey,
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Speaker 2: look at our political divide it seems like and nobody
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Speaker 2: can agree morally on anything, or just shouting over each other.
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Speaker 2: And what's the basic value of life? Where does that
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Speaker 2: come from? And so I think a lot of these
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Speaker 2: questions are hitting people square in the face. And so
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Speaker 2: no longer is it the typical apatheism where it's just
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Speaker 2: I don't care about these questions, and I don't care
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Speaker 2: about where we came from and where we could be going,
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Speaker 2: and does my life have objective value? I think we
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Speaker 2: probably kind of hit that, it seems like to me,
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Speaker 2: at least on college campuses a decade ago, a little
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Speaker 2: bit of we hit more of those students who said,
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Speaker 2: why are you guys out here? Who cares? This is
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Speaker 2: all just kind of theoretical mumbo jumbos, Why does it
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Speaker 2: even matter? And so we had to start with, well,
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Speaker 2: don't you tie your shoes in the morning. I mean,
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Speaker 2: you're living for something even though you think these questions
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Speaker 2: are ridiculous. But now we get way less of that.
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Speaker 2: It's people are way more honest about you know. My
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Speaker 2: favorite is the happy nihilists that we phase. You know,
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Speaker 2: some of these people, you're just like, okay, so you're
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Speaker 2: a nihilist of fatalists and you think we're going nowhere,
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Speaker 2: but you're happy. Why why are you happy? If you're
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Speaker 2: going to be consistent in that type of thinking. So,
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Speaker 2: I honestly think the questions are tougher and I think
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Speaker 2: there's more issues. Some historians would disagree with me on that, obviously,
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Speaker 2: but I do think that there are more issues that
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Speaker 2: are acutely hitting people in the face, that people want
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Speaker 2: to dig through. And it's not like this generation is
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Speaker 2: smarter than the last, but it's that emotional intellectual piece
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Speaker 2: that people want answers to, and so I think apologetics
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Speaker 2: is more me now to their issues.
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Speaker 3: That ever, let me ask you truth or questions.
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Speaker 1: As we've been going to close here, I want to
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Speaker 1: give people just a sense of the types of apologetics
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Speaker 1: you guys deal with by asking you some big questions.
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Speaker 1: And one of those questions is the existence of God.
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Speaker 1: And do you guys have a go to argument or
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Speaker 1: way to approach the issue when you only have a
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Speaker 1: couple of minutes when somebody says does God exist? Where
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Speaker 1: do you go there?
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Speaker 3: If you're in an elevator or sitting beside somebody in
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Speaker 3: an airplane.
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Speaker 2: Many different areas that we can jump into. So I
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Speaker 2: try to learn as many different ways to answer that question,
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Speaker 2: which is a great question. One of the first ones
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Speaker 2: is if there is no God, what you believe is
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Speaker 2: non existence produces existence. That's a miracle, but you have
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Speaker 2: no miracle worker. If you think there is no God,
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Speaker 2: you believe that chaos produces or that's a miracle, but unfortunately,
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Speaker 2: I have no miracle worker. Thirdly, if there is no God,
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Speaker 2: you believe that non life produces life. That is a miracle,
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Speaker 2: but unfortunately you have no miracle worker. And fourthly, if
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Speaker 2: there is no God, you believe that non reason produces reason, well,
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Speaker 2: that's definitely a miracle. But unfortunately I don't have a
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Speaker 2: miracle worker. So the way you live your life, the
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Speaker 2: way you observe reality, is best explained by the existence
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Speaker 2: of some type of God. So that's one approach I take.
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Speaker 2: Another approach I take is You're right, it's frustrating that
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Speaker 2: we can't see God, but I can't see love. I
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Speaker 2: can never x ray love or justice. But to be
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Speaker 2: honest with you, my life is more about love and
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Speaker 2: justice than it is about quantum physics. Love means so
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Speaker 2: much to me, I know it's real. And to insist
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Speaker 2: that a kiss is the approach of two pairs of
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Speaker 2: lips with a reciprocal tree tansbission of carbon dioxide and microbes,
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Speaker 2: it's so superficial, it's so trivial. It's incredible. Now you
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Speaker 2: know that there is more to love than simply a
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Speaker 2: chemical reaction just to drive to preserve the genetic pool.
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Speaker 2: You experienced it. So, now, what is the best explanation
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Speaker 2: of your experience of love and justice? And I would argue,
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Speaker 2: obviously it's a personal God who creates us, our bodies,
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Speaker 2: our chemicals, and that's all good, But there's more to us.
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Speaker 2: We have a soul, a free will, a conscience, a
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Speaker 2: rational mind, none of which you can put in the
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Speaker 2: bottom of a test tube, but they are crucial to
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Speaker 2: life as we enjoy it.
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Speaker 1: Talk about the second issue, which is the resurrection of Christ,
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Speaker 1: the historicity of the resurrection of Christ. When you only
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Speaker 1: have a couple of minutes to talk about that issue,
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Speaker 1: did what evidence do we have for Christ's resurrection?
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Speaker 2: What do you say, Oh, Gary Habermass, who I'm sure
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Speaker 2: you know is coming out of that what four said? Volume?
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Speaker 2: Each book is like seven hundred pages. So I just
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Speaker 2: start with look at all the archaeological, historical testimony that
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Speaker 2: is coming out and only increasing greatly. An atheist will
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Speaker 2: scratch their head and said, oh, oh, I didn't had
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Speaker 2: no idea about that. And then my favorite out of
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Speaker 2: all the different pieces of evidence and related to the
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Speaker 2: resurrection is just you have to have an answer to
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Speaker 2: why in the world it's so many Jews overnight become Christians.
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Speaker 2: There had to have been some type of match that
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Speaker 2: lit something on fire and there was this explosion of
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Speaker 2: people who would have had to jump through way more
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Speaker 2: hoops than we do even in our scientific age, to
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Speaker 2: actually accept Jesus Christ as the Lord of their lives
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Speaker 2: and be willing to die for him. You know, standing
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Speaker 2: in the coliseum there in Rome, thinking about how in
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Speaker 2: less than one hundred years, three hundred and sixty thousand
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Speaker 2: Christians were butchered to death in that small arena, it
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Speaker 2: starts to get you thinking, well, why in the world
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Speaker 2: did they just die for a lie? Have been more
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Speaker 2: than that? What power, money, sex, or power did they
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Speaker 2: have to gain in doing so? So, I think, out
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Speaker 2: of all the evidence, that's still probably my favorite ones.
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Speaker 1: Well, let's talk about what many Christian leaders are seeing
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Speaker 1: as a revival or a movement of God nationwide among
15:16
Speaker 1: gen Z. You guys are on college campuses a lot,
15:20
Speaker 1: You're around this this agea.
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Speaker 3: Of a lot.
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Speaker 1: What do you what are you seeing among college students
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Speaker 1: and among gen Z? Is is there a movement of God,
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Speaker 1: a genuine movement of God going on.
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Speaker 2: Yes, there's a genuine movement of God going on. But
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Speaker 2: there's also a deeply entrenched secularism materialism, and those two
15:38
Speaker 2: are obviously in contradiction of each other. Now, why the
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Speaker 2: a revival many different reasons. Obviously, ultimately it's the Holy
15:46
Speaker 2: Spirit who's doing that work. But I think that a
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Speaker 2: lot of young folks are sick and tired of the superficiality,
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Speaker 2: the triviality of a godless existence, and they begun to
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Speaker 2: get hurt deeply by things like divorce, by alienation, by
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Speaker 2: the insistence of evil, to just keep on knocking at
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Speaker 2: people's doors, the temptations of life, and they're saying, there's
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Speaker 2: got to be something more. So I think it's a
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Speaker 2: part of it is a real desire to dig deeper
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Speaker 2: and not just to settle with Well, the purpose of
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Speaker 2: my life is to make money. The purpose of my
16:22
Speaker 2: life is to have a large stock portfolio. The purpose
16:24
Speaker 2: of my life is to have pleasure, physical pleasure. Oh,
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Speaker 2: the purpose of my life is to be comfortable, physical comfort.
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Speaker 2: And I think they're seeing through the hollowness of that
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Speaker 2: and asking the deeper questions, which means they are spiritually hungry.
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Speaker 3: Steward, do you have any thoughts on that issue?
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Speaker 2: Oh? Yeah, I think the spiritual but non religious is
16:44
Speaker 2: changing very quickly, and I think people again want structure.
16:47
Speaker 2: It's interesting how Catholicism and Greek Orthodox, Easter Orthodox. Those
16:53
Speaker 2: are the two quickest growing denominations, if you will, And
16:56
Speaker 2: it's because so many of these college students want this structure,
16:59
Speaker 2: they want this order, and I respect that greatly. Even
17:02
Speaker 2: though we get pressed very frequently on the Eucharist and
17:05
Speaker 2: people want to debate that one. That's a little bit
17:07
Speaker 2: frustrating for us because we're there to talk and challenge
17:11
Speaker 2: secularists predominantly. But still I still love it, and I
17:14
Speaker 2: think it's the whole Jordan Peterson like, get up and
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Speaker 2: make your bed in the morning and have some structure
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Speaker 2: to your life that a lot of people are grasping
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Speaker 2: on to you, just in a different sort of way.
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Speaker 2: So that's the first one. And then this God shaped
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Speaker 2: hole will always be there knocking at the door, and
17:29
Speaker 2: you can try as many things as you want, but
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Speaker 2: you're never going to fill it until it's actually God.
17:33
Speaker 2: And probably the toughest friend that I have, top d
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Speaker 2: one athlete, broke down in tears not too long ago
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Speaker 2: with me at the dinner table, and he said, I
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Speaker 2: am just tremendously jealous that you have objective value purpose
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Speaker 2: meaning in your life. I don't have that. I'm living
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Speaker 2: for the health of my family, and there's a demise
17:51
Speaker 2: right now and certain family members' health, and that's my God,
17:55
Speaker 2: and I'm realizing that cannot buoy me whatsoever. I think
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Speaker 2: the revival, or call it the surge. Every ministry I've
18:04
Speaker 2: talked to other than maybe one across all the campuses
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Speaker 2: we've gone to in the last year saying they're just
18:09
Speaker 2: exploding at the seams, I think those are those are
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Speaker 2: two more that students are really chasing after. And I
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Speaker 2: just think the joy that so many students are seeing
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Speaker 2: within whether it's a frat, a sorority, any campus ministry,
18:26
Speaker 2: I think that's really attractive. And in our I'm sure
18:29
Speaker 2: you've written a lot, Michael about how much individualism there
18:33
Speaker 2: is in our society today. These students are looking at
18:38
Speaker 2: maybe even the Harvard studies showing if you want emotional, physical,
18:42
Speaker 2: life expectancy, getting off drugs, if you want all these
18:45
Speaker 2: things to happen, well you're gonna want healthy community, and
18:47
Speaker 2: that the church statistically is by far away the healthiest
18:51
Speaker 2: community for those things to happen. And so I think
18:54
Speaker 2: I see, obviously you still the frozen chosen churches, but
18:57
Speaker 2: I think the majority of these college students are seeing tremendous, honest,
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Speaker 2: authentic joy within these Christian communities until they want to join.
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Speaker 1: In my final sixty seconds, herey give advice to people
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Speaker 1: who are afraid to share their faith. And I'm asking
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Speaker 1: two people who do it boldly and do it for
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Speaker 1: hours at a time sometimes, what advice would you give
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Speaker 1: those people in their situations? And secondly, do you, guys
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Speaker 1: ever get stumped? Do you ever just have to say
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Speaker 1: that's a good question. Let me think about that.
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Speaker 2: Well, the best answer I give is I do not know.
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Speaker 2: That smashes the whole stereotype that a Christian is someone
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Speaker 2: who claims to have all the answers all the difficult questions.
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Speaker 2: It opens up why the door that you better learn
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Speaker 2: how to live with mystery if you're going to live
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Speaker 2: in reality. And then secondly, why continue to share your faith? Well,
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Speaker 2: in the issue of truth has life and death consequences.
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Speaker 2: Persuasion is an act of love. So sharing my faith
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Speaker 2: is not some wicked, manipulative proselytize it. No, no, no,
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Speaker 2: Jesus Christ. The truth of Christ deal with the issues
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Speaker 2: of life and death. And therefore, when you and I
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Speaker 2: seek to persuade people that Jesus is the truth, that
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Speaker 2: is an act of love, that's not some empty, headless,
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Speaker 2: brainless proselytism.
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Speaker 3: And end to that, seriorty have any faults on that
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Speaker 3: before we close?
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Speaker 2: Yeah, it's honestly, it's amazing, whether it's on a college
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Speaker 2: campus or at our church, how people will say our
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Speaker 2: favorite answer that you give is I do not know.
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Speaker 2: And so it smashes the stereotype of a typical pastor
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Speaker 2: who feels like I have to defend God no matter what.
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Speaker 2: God is not big enough to defend himself, and so
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Speaker 2: so I think when students see that, it's honest and
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Speaker 2: they want it, so we genuinely do get stumped. But
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Speaker 2: there's also that side of atheist secularists Muslims feel like,
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Speaker 2: in order for your worldview to be true, you have
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Speaker 2: to be able to answer every single little question and
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Speaker 2: give me this big word proof, even though nobody can
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Speaker 2: agree on what that word even means. And so no,
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Speaker 2: if we're gonna go by that, then we get stumped
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Speaker 2: all the time. But obviously, at the Christian worldview is
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Speaker 2: primarily about history philosophy, not so much about scientific proof,
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Speaker 2: So getting stumped is just fine. If it been turning
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Speaker 2: it back over on them. It's a lot of for secularists.
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Speaker 2: Stop doing that. I want to try and punch holes
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Speaker 2: in your worldview.
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Speaker 1: If you like today's episode, please subscribe and leave a
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Speaker 1: five star review.
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Speaker 3: That's how we help more people just like you find
21:32
Speaker 3: the show.
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Speaker 4: A big thanks to the team at life Audio for
21:35
Speaker 4: their partnership with us on the podcast. If you go
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Speaker 4: to lifeaudio dot com, you will find dozens of other
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Speaker 4: faith centered podcasts in their network.
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Speaker 1: See you next time.