Latest / Women Disrupting Tech / How Heart-Centered Leadership Helps Female Founders Prevent Burnout with Alice Pavin | Ep. 141

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How Heart-Centered Leadership Helps Female Founders Prevent Burnout with Alice Pavin | Ep. 141 · Women Disrupting Tech

0:00
I think there's a very important distinction to make as well here
0:04
that I really want to highlight that in some circles, some
0:08
people might throw a lot of dirt on the mind.
0:11
You know, the mind is the seat of the suffering.
0:13
You know quite the mind that you will, you will release all the
0:17
suffering and you will be coming to a bliss state, which in many
0:20
ways might be true if you manage to get there in meditation.
0:23
But we are losing the fact, we're forgetting the fact that
0:27
the mind is an amazing tool, right?
0:29
It's an amazing tool, but it's a tool that is made for certain to
0:34
help you with certain things and the mind with others, right?
0:37
And the mind is made to help you get to where you want to go, but
0:43
the heart is the one that tells you where to go.
0:58
You are the voice of Alice Bavin.
1:00
She is a certified Vinyasa yoga teacher and life and business
1:04
coach who works at the intersection of performance,
1:07
self-awareness and regenerative systems.
1:11
In this episode, Women Describing Tech Alice returns to
1:14
the show to help us explore a different layer of performance,
1:18
Heart centered leadership. Alice shares how to use the
1:22
heart as a copilot on your entrepreneurial journey, how to
1:26
recognize signs of alignment and misalignment between your
1:30
business and personal goals, and she shares practical tools to
1:34
help your heart and mind work in harmony.
1:37
This episode is different from what you're used to because
1:40
we're not discussing pitch tech tactics and funding strategies,
1:43
but the inner operating system of a founder.
1:46
Before we start, we also discuss micro dosing of psychedelic
1:50
compounds to support balance and flow.
1:53
While I do not endorse taking performance enhancing
1:57
substances, I thought it would be useful to discuss this topic
2:01
so you can decide for yourself. With that, let's dive into my
2:05
conversation with Ellis Bavin. Good morning, Ellis Bavin, good
2:10
to have you again. You were my guests back in
2:14
episode 51. You're working with female
2:20
founders, female entrepreneurs, but you're also a well-being
2:24
coaching practitioner. Maybe for the people who didn't
2:28
listen to the first episode, how did you get into your current
2:33
role? Yes, and the current role is
2:37
also slightly different from the last episodes.
2:40
I think it's good for for everyone.
2:43
Yeah, my journey, my journey is deeply connected in into what I
2:48
believe in, which is fundamentally that we live this
2:52
life and the life is to be feeling alive, right?
2:56
We will not want to walk around feeling numb.
2:58
We want to live life fully. And that is very connected to
3:02
living your truth. There's something here you came
3:05
for. There's something that feels
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authentic and alive, right? Yet we get molded many ways to
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be in a certain way, to live in a certain way, to work in a
3:16
certain way, to have partnerships in a certain way.
3:20
And my experience and many other women and people that I've been
3:24
speaking to is that everything can look great on the paper.
3:29
You know, everything is perfect from the outside and there's
3:32
nothing really much to complain about, but yet something feels
3:36
off, right? Something is missing, something
3:39
you can't really shake. And for me, I call this the
3:42
whisper. It's the body starting
3:44
whispering, you know, telling you something.
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And maybe you can go sometime without listening, but over
3:49
time, if you don't, it starts knocking louder and louder and
3:52
louder and asking you to listen. And this is connected to my own
3:56
path because from a quite an early age, I understood that I
3:59
wanted to help people feel better.
4:01
And then I believed the way to do that was through innovation,
4:04
impact entrepreneurship. So at 17, I started my first
4:08
company. Then I moved to London, worked
4:09
in the startup, started studying psychology in London at UCL, got
4:14
involved in the investment, as you know, headed up the
4:18
investment fund at the university, an accelerated
4:21
incubator in new countries, came to the Netherlands and started
4:25
working then with impact entrepreneurs and women.
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And all of this work I really enjoyed, I couldn't say it in
4:34
any other way. And it's really important work.
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But still I felt that something wasn't fully there, right.
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And the truth is, I always knew what it was because I didn't
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work directly with people with their inner worlds, with their
4:46
their selves, you know. So what I did last year was
4:52
looking at something I call now my spiritual CV.
4:56
And this is my partner, Pablo, that brought this concept into
4:58
my mind. It is basically the things that
5:02
you've been doing because your heart has been telling you, not
5:05
because it sounds good, because you expected it, or because it
5:08
gives you money. So what did I do?
5:11
You know, I learned meditation during every passenger treat in
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Thailand. I went to Mexico for yoga
5:17
teacher training. I studied meditation in
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Portugal. I lived with a monk in in Sri
5:23
Lanka. I stayed at ashrams in India,
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you know, quite a pattern. At the same time, you know, with
5:29
through the the work I did previously in impact
5:32
entrepreneurship as well. The thing that was closest to my
5:35
heart was also that balancing of the feminine, masculine right in
5:40
business and in the individuals finding that balance and
5:43
well-being programs. So looking at all of this is a
5:47
central theme which is going inwards to understand who you
5:52
are, loving that part of you, and then aligning life, right?
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So this is then what I've been doing for myself and what I now
6:00
full time focus on for founders. So if I would say it in one
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sentence, it's helping these ambitious women to go from this
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mind centered overdoing to heart centered balanced being.
6:16
Yeah. To what extent does it sort of
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also go back into the balance between masculine and feminine
6:26
values? How does it also balance that
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out you think? So my work is focused on finding
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that inner balance and that can be many different ways.
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So for example, it can be in this between the doing, the
6:42
overdoing, the overthinking, the over activity and the just being
6:46
right, the spaciousness. It could also be in the mass and
6:49
the feminine, you know, it can be between the mind and the
6:52
heart. It's about striking that balance
6:54
and that balance might not look 5050 for you.
6:57
I think we also mentioned this in the last podcast that it
6:59
doesn't have to be equal, but it's about what is true to you,
7:02
right? So indeed, it still involves
7:04
this feminine and masculine, but it's it's, it's bigger than
7:07
that. Yeah.
7:08
And it's what I'm hearing you say is that it's deeply personal
7:12
so that it's something that isn't sort of copy paste.
7:19
You do a framework and then you apply that to your life and then
7:22
everything will be OK because the balance can be different for
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different people. Yes, indeed, exactly like that,
7:30
which is the beautiful part, but also the tricky part, because
7:34
that means you need to listen to yourself.
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You need to know what's the truth for you, you know, Hence
7:40
that whisper, because as I said, it starts getting louder and
7:43
louder and louder, and many people face stress, anxiety,
7:47
burnout. Bernard is not necessarily
7:52
coming from working too hard, but it's coming from working too
7:55
hard against your true selves. Yeah, doing something that you
8:00
sort of don't feel as the right thing to do or as the fully
8:06
right thing to do. Yeah, not aligned.
8:08
Yeah, no, sorry. That's that was the word I was
8:11
looking for. Thank you.
8:14
So you just spent a month in Sweden and when we spoke before,
8:18
you mentioned that it was like really silent there.
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Only the, well, you could literally hear your own
8:25
whispers, I think. So what, what, how did it change
8:33
the way you create work and decisions for yourself?
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How? How did it help you on your own
8:39
journey? Yeah, indeed, it was very
8:42
silent. I'm from Sweden, right, But I'm
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from the most southern part, Malmo, not from the north.
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And I was thoroughly surprised over how few people, how silent
8:52
it is, how much just forest and lakes there are.
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So I went there with my, yeah, my incredible partner Pablo, and
9:00
actually just mentioned it wasn't, we didn't go necessarily
9:03
for this island. We went right, because we met
9:06
earlier this year in India and we both feel like it's important
9:10
to to not wait until we need perhaps couples therapy in five
9:15
years, but already now start working on really truly getting
9:19
to know each other. Which kind of life do you want
9:20
to build and building that intimacy.
9:22
So basically prevention rather than treatment, right.
9:25
But what that meant is that we needed a space where we are not
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doing, where we are not on our phones, we are not working.
9:33
Hence the silence. And what I noticed first of all,
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which I already know from the beginning, is that this silence
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is hard for me. You know my mind.
9:42
I am an active human being. My mind wants to get things to
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get involved with right and engage with.
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And instead, sitting in the unknown with Pablo is more
9:55
uncomfortable. But this is, of course, also
9:58
worth hovering over for a bit, because it's this old truth that
10:03
the things that actually makes us feel uncomfortable, right,
10:05
are the things that. Yeah, I did basic growth.
10:08
Yeah, it's the pathway for most growth, you know, transition
10:11
towards who you are wanting to become.
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And it might be sheezy, but it's so true.
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So I had to go through that. And this is what I've been going
10:18
through more and more for the last year.
10:21
Really my focus 2025 has been this.
10:23
And what I noticed is I am starting noticing other
10:26
sensations in my body. I'm starting to hear what it's
10:31
saying. I'm starting to move
10:32
differently. There can.
10:34
I'm like, you know, I practice a lot of yoga, and my yoga is
10:37
shifting towards completely different form of being more
10:39
organic and less rigid. I'm dancing more.
10:44
And I'm noticing that it is in the silent that everything rests
10:49
in that nothingness that everything actually resides.
10:52
Yeah, right. Because if it's noise, you can't
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hear. So that silence allowed me then
10:58
to come back to your question around work and decisions.
11:01
It helps me to take decisions that actually are more true to
11:03
me because I can hear what is true.
11:07
Yeah, yeah, that's beautiful. We need, and I recognize that
11:13
you sometimes really need silence.
11:14
And also sometimes it's even where I am, it's silent at
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night, but also in the morning because there's a lot of
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children that go to, what is it to school.
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And then afterwards it's like really silent.
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And I've, I had to do a lot of work on that to start to enjoy
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that because my mind is always racing and always like, like
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busy, busy, busy and then really getting, yeah, as you said, and
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comfortable with just the silence being there.
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Yeah, it won't Stimuli. Something to hold on to.
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Yeah, you're looking for that and.
12:01
But that's interesting, actually, what you're mentioning
12:03
with the kids because, you know, when we think about silence, we
12:06
think about the hearing, you know?
12:08
Yeah. But we have these different
12:12
senses that allows us to interpret and process out the
12:15
world, the external world, right?
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But what I noticed in Sweden is that there's another form of
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silence, like an energetic silence, because there's nothing
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really happening around. There's no other people, there's
12:26
no other activity. It's a different silence that we
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might it's beyond the hearing that the body feels that allows
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it to really, really relax and go into the parasympathetic
12:37
nervous system. And and and.
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How does that then influence your body?
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I'd say that first of all, which was interesting.
12:45
We thought we would wake up naturally with with the sun.
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That was kind of the idea. But there was none of this noise
12:55
or energy from outside waking us up.
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Even if I would be in a completely silent room here, the
13:00
activity of the city here in the Netherlands was to wake me up,
13:03
right? So I noticed that we were
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completely in our own flow and also moving slower because when
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you're in this calm state, you naturally take more time for
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everything. And that is fine, you know, And
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that's also really where I wanted to get to because it's
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not always easy to get there. But if you spend a month there,
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you manage to tip over into that state, right?
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And with that, tipping over to the state, you give your body
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and your nervous system an opportunity to remember how you
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naturally actually are feeling. Like for this society, right?
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How we naturally were feeling in a natural state.
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So it's a sort of reset in that sense.
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It's a sort of remembrance. Yeah.
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It's a sort of remembrance of who we are and how we naturally
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would live if we were not triggered and stimulated
13:55
constantly. So now you're back and one of
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the things we are going to talk about is the mind versus the
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heart. Yeah.
14:09
So initially you had a problem yourself, and I see that with
14:14
myself as well. So it's not just women who do
14:17
this, but also men. A lot of the work that is being
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done is done from the mind and not necessarily from the heart.
14:25
That leads to burnout, as you said.
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And I was wondering when did you first notice that in yourself?
14:35
When what was the first moment you got sort of felt for
14:40
yourself? Hey, I'm, I'm missing something.
14:44
I'm doing something that is. There's different faces to that
14:49
evolution. The first phase is about 7-6
14:54
years ago, beginning of COVID, when with all this turbulence, I
14:58
felt, wow, I need some stability.
15:00
Let's roll out my mat every morning and start with
15:03
meditation and yoga, right. And this was a feeling of that
15:07
something is not fully balanced, you know, between the mind and
15:11
the heart. The mind is racing too much.
15:14
About two years ago, 2-3 years ago, I would say that that I
15:18
could articulate this. And about one year ago I started
15:23
actually exploring how would it look like, How would it feel if
15:27
I balanced it out and started tapping into more into my heart.
15:32
But I think there's a very important distinction to make as
15:37
well here that I really want to highlight.
15:42
I find that in today's, in today, today that in some
15:48
circles, some people might throw a lot of dirt on the mind.
15:52
You know, the mind is the seat of the suffering.
15:54
You know quite the mind that you will, you will release all the
15:58
suffering and you will become into a bliss state, which in
16:01
many ways might be true if you manage to get there in
16:03
meditation. But we are losing the fact,
16:06
we're forgetting the fact that the mind is an amazing tool,
16:10
right? It's an amazing tool, but it's a
16:12
tool that is made for certain to help you with certain things and
16:18
the mind with others, right? And the mind is made to help you
16:24
get to where you want to go, but the heart is the one that tells
16:28
you where to go. So for example, if I, you know,
16:31
I'd hosted these workshops on feminine embodiments for for
16:34
women this year. And if I told my mind, hey, set
16:39
up a CRM system, set up the financial structure, they would
16:44
do much better job than if I tell my heart that thing, right?
16:47
So the mind is great, but the heart is the one that should be
16:50
choosing. You want to do this.
16:53
Because if my mind would be choosing, it will probably say,
16:55
well, create a workshop that will help founders to find
16:58
investors in half of the time, which will be important, but not
17:01
my truth, you know. So it's really about using the
17:05
heart to understand where to go, and then using the mind to
17:09
understand how to get there. OK, So the, the heart will then
17:13
sort of become the compass where is the the mind is in charge of
17:19
the, well, let's say the chief operations officer who actually
17:24
gets to execute on it. Yeah, or like the the heart is
17:28
the copilot in the car holding the map drive here and the mind
17:33
is OK, that means I need to accelerate now I need to pull
17:35
the string, you know? Oh yeah, I think that's that's
17:39
that's a beautiful analogy to have that copilot in the heart
17:43
as a copilot. Instead of today when we put it
17:48
in the back, lock it in the back and say be quiet, you know, and
17:51
then the mind drives alone. Yeah.
17:54
So I want, before we go further, I want to just ask how if we
18:00
don't do that, let's say, if we let the mind run the show
18:04
completely, how does that show up in?
18:08
Because we talked a bit about a burnout, but that's like really
18:14
a face that is not necessarily fortunately reached by everyone.
18:19
But how do we sort of what, what are things that we can see along
18:26
the way before we reach that burnout that can trigger us to
18:30
really say, well, you know, maybe I need to start looking
18:35
into this a bit more? Yes.
18:38
So we kind of touched upon the fact that that that imbalance
18:43
between the mind and the heart or using the mind and the heart
18:46
for the wrong things leads to not living your truth, not
18:49
feeling alive. Hence not feeling good could
18:51
lead to burnout, could just lead to this uncomfort in the body,
18:54
unease, stress, not sleeping, not eating well, not being
18:58
focused, right, But the question is how does the body communicate
19:04
that? And I think it's the body, first
19:07
of all, is sending these signals, for example, feeling a
19:13
tight knit over the chest. And of course we'll look at that
19:15
negatively. But can we shift our mind and
19:18
say, wow, this is actually a gift from the body telling us,
19:21
here's a sign that something is off, right?
19:23
So it's about learning what are my signs?
19:26
So to give you an example from from me, and this is individual
19:30
from me, a yes for me, the truth for me, this is right for me.
19:35
This is where I want to go. I feel that in it's almost like
19:39
an ice cold metallic sensation quickly coming from my feet,
19:45
ripping all the way up to the top of my spine.
19:48
I feel it in my heart expanding and, and I feel it in a sense of
19:54
aliveness and kind of tingling in my thighs.
19:59
And the last thing I can feel is goosebumps.
20:01
These are all things I only get when it's a yes.
20:05
When I get a no, my heart contracts, I can get cold, like
20:11
starting freezing my hips and my legs can start shaking.
20:15
So it's not just that aliveness, but it's actually like I'm
20:18
really, really cold. These are the things that
20:20
happened to me when I am not in my space.
20:24
And I believe that the listeners and even you already know some
20:30
of these things. It's about taking up the
20:32
notebook, just writing down like right now, what are the things I
20:35
notice with the yes, what are the things I notice we don't
20:37
know? Second step, continue paying
20:39
attention, right? Like what else shows up that I
20:43
can add to that list? And then the third, which I
20:46
think is in many ways, sometimes the hardest, is like, even
20:49
though we know we're not used to trusting the body, right?
20:52
We prefer trusting in mind. So we actually don't make the
20:54
changes. But yeah, learning to listen to
20:57
how your body communicates is how you can tell when you're
21:02
imbalanced. Yeah, so I heard you say
21:05
something really important. We get to we're we're tempted,
21:10
let's say, to let the mind run the show, even though we sort of
21:15
feel that it's maybe not good. How do we how do we make that
21:21
shift from really working out of the mind to working from the
21:32
heart and letting them the mind help or execute?
21:36
Yeah. So how do we put them the heart
21:41
in the Co driving seat, right, and copilot seat and finding
21:45
that balance like everything, it's a muscle, right, that we
21:50
train. It's practice.
21:52
We just don't pick up a guitar and are perfect at playing
21:54
guitar. We need to go through that
21:56
learning process. How do we practice the heart?
22:01
It's through heart centered practices.
22:02
It's by going inwards and start listening inwards, listening to
22:06
the body, listening to the heart.
22:08
And if I would choose one method, meditation, right?
22:13
Full stop, meditation and a meditation where you allow
22:18
yourself to drop from the mind into the body.
22:21
And what I mean with that is becoming aware what's happening
22:23
in the body. So even now when we're speaking
22:27
or when you're as a listener is listening to this podcast at the
22:32
same time as you're listening to my words, can you become aware
22:36
of the sensations in your body? Are there certain vibrations
22:40
that you can feel, perhaps in your fingers or toes?
22:44
What is the temperature like? How does the skin, the air feel
22:48
on the skin or your textiles on the skin?
22:52
How does the heartbeat? How does the breath move?
22:54
Is it shallow? Is it deep going towards the
22:59
body? Practicing or focusing here
23:03
allows you to slowly shift and rewire, meaning that over time
23:08
you become more balanced between the two.
23:11
Yeah. So this is at least my
23:15
experience, not something you do, let's say with one flip of a
23:19
switch. It takes practice to start to,
23:26
let's say, embrace the silence, but also to start feeling I was
23:32
the interesting thing and, and for the people who are
23:35
listening, I was just doing this literally listening to Alice's
23:41
voice and then feeling OK, How do my fingers feel?
23:46
Because usually my fingers are like really cold at this point
23:51
of today. Why?
23:53
In part it's because of sugar and there's a lot of blood
23:57
flowing through my to my to my to the core of my body to
24:02
process it. But also what, what I found
24:07
really interesting is that you've said if you have really,
24:12
that you have really cold hands. If it doesn't, if something
24:16
doesn't work, if it's no for you.
24:18
So I was trying to feel, OK, how does this conversation feel?
24:22
And I was a bit anxious up front because this is, this is a topic
24:28
that is not generally associated with entrepreneurship, like
24:38
really working from the heart and not from the might.
24:42
Most people still associate it with working from the might.
24:46
So but it actually felt really good and my fingers are actually
24:50
warm. So that's quite, quite
24:55
beautiful. Yeah, you're pretty
24:57
communicating. Yeah, yeah.
24:59
But it's so how much time? That's actually a question I
25:05
wanted to ask. How much time does it take to
25:08
get to a stage where you really recognize these signs?
25:12
How, how much time? Let me rephrase that because
25:15
this is the wrong question. I now realize.
25:18
How much time did it take you to to get through from the point
25:23
like that? You start to realize, OK, this
25:27
there's there's something off to implementing the practices that
25:32
you have now to really be being able to feel.
25:40
It is happening in a step by step right?
25:45
So every day since or every week month I tend to move towards
25:51
being able to go deeper into it. Or in the beginning, I could
25:57
feel the temperature in my body, you know, maybe it takes 1/2
26:00
times, but I can feel like my hands are a bit cold.
26:03
We have this ability and it's about taking what we already can
26:06
and going deeper into that sensation.
26:09
You know what, what does the body already give us?
26:11
How can we move deeper? And over time that would spread,
26:13
right? And also it would shift.
26:15
It has shifted. The practice I've been doing, I
26:18
mentioned that meditation is, if I would recommend one thing,
26:22
it's the thing to start with. But there are many different,
26:26
what I call embodied practices as well, which is this shifting,
26:30
dropping from the mind into the body.
26:32
Yeah, that naturally I started occurring for me.
26:35
I told you that I move differently.
26:37
I do yoga differently. I do breath work differently.
26:39
And all of these breath work, mindful walking, being in
26:42
nature, I embodied practices for me that before wasn't as
26:47
profound, but now going in nature can be a much more
26:52
embodied practice than before. It's hard to tell you.
26:56
Did it take one year or five years?
27:00
But practicing a little bit every day, even if it's just 5
27:04
minutes in between meetings, sitting down, just feeling.
27:07
How am I feeling today? Just taking 510 slow breaths,
27:11
placing the hand on the heart, closing the eyes and just asking
27:15
how am I feeling right now? What do I need right now?
27:20
Something that might feel uncomfortable in the beginning,
27:22
Yeah, 5/10/15 times later, things will start arising.
27:27
Yeah. Yeah, there's.
27:31
Does it help to set an alarm for that?
27:35
As in for the practices, yeah, I would say I have an inner alarm,
27:41
which is when I wake up, then it's it's no, it's a no brainer.
27:46
I just start my morning practice right away, you know, But I've
27:53
heard people that do, for example, things every time they
27:55
pick up their phone. That's a cue that you then learn
27:59
to associate with. Now it's time to take 5 deep
28:02
breaths. Or every time I open the this
28:05
specific door in my house, I would sit down in this chair
28:08
next to the door and take this minute.
28:11
You can build in these things in a way that works for you in your
28:13
life. For me it really works in the
28:15
morning before as we we we spoke about previously before my day
28:21
starts and it starts being filled my mind with other
28:24
things. I want to shift to to flow as a
28:30
topic for a minute and I want to get right into practice.
28:37
How do you how can we shift our minds because you have your own
28:41
morning routine, how can we shift it in such a way?
28:47
Is, is there a practice that you can recommend to shift your mind
28:52
from, let's say, waking up and hearing all these noise, these
28:57
inner voices? You have to do this.
28:59
You have to do that. All the kids, all this, all that
29:02
to getting quiet and getting into a flow state.
29:07
Yeah, I think one of the main reasons I'm doing this in the
29:13
morning, first of all, and that I would recommend that if the
29:17
fits fits their life is because what you do in the morning sets
29:22
the stage of the day, right? If you start eating sugar in the
29:25
morning, your body will start looking for that spike
29:28
throughout the day. If you take up your phone right
29:30
away, you will look for that dopamine cake.
29:33
If you're start your day by calming down your nervous system
29:36
and being in that state, you would more easily continue to
29:41
flow through the state throughout the day.
29:43
Then the question is, how do you do this?
29:49
Similar to what I said before, take up a notebook and just
29:52
write the things that you know you enjoy, puts in a calm state
29:56
that makes you feel at ease and at peace.
29:58
It might be taking that walk. It might be for many women in my
30:02
workshops, they mentioned that their beauty routine, it's a way
30:06
of self-care, of connecting with themselves in presence, you
30:09
know, and finding the things that you enjoy.
30:13
Choose one of those things and then add either meditation or
30:17
breath work and that's your morning routine.
30:19
That's where you and then you can build on that.
30:22
That's what I did. I started one or two things and
30:24
now I have quite a few things that I do every morning.
30:28
OK. And in terms of prep work, can
30:35
you give an effective exercise or an exercise that you use to
30:43
to calm yourself down? Yes, I use different breath
30:47
breaks depending on the output, the outcome that I want to, to
30:51
reach. What if I would recommend one
30:53
that is very connected to what we're speaking today?
30:56
We're speaking about the heart, right?
30:58
It is a breath work where you are breathing into the heart.
31:02
So similar to what I mentioned earlier, placing a hand in the
31:06
heart can help kind of reinforce that awareness, closing the ice
31:11
and, and, and, and breathing into this area.
31:16
And then once you allow this, this heart, this awareness to
31:20
expand, you can then end by asking yourself, how am I
31:23
feeling? For example, what do I need
31:27
today? As I mentioned, another one
31:32
connected to the heart that we actually can do, I think is very
31:36
relevant for entrepreneurs and it's connected to decision
31:40
making. So we talked right about how the
31:42
mind is should not be the seat of deciding where to go, but how
31:48
do you get the information with the heart?
31:50
Because it's, it's harder than it sounds, you know.
31:54
And this is a, a kind of visualization meditation from
31:58
the hearth Matt Institute. This is a nonprofit organization
32:01
that is focusing on research and practices to go away from
32:04
stressing into more peaceful state heart centred practices.
32:09
And yeah, using this before going into an investor meeting,
32:12
signing a new partnership, taking on a new employee, these
32:17
kind of things I think is a really, really good practice.
32:19
Do you want to try it? Yeah, let's do that.
32:22
I think before we do so you explained a bit about half math.
32:28
Now is it, is it a breathing exercise or is it what is it?
32:35
I would call it the visualization exercise and
32:37
meditation where we shift the focus from.
32:41
The is it guided or non guided? Sorry, I'm just.
32:46
Guided so I will guide you through it now, but it's a very
32:50
simple exercise. It has just a few steps and you
32:53
can guide yourself through this at any time where you just feel
32:57
like what should I do in this moment?
33:01
And if you want to build a business from a more heart
33:03
centered approach, OK. Is this invested a right one for
33:07
me? Truly.
33:08
Let's tap in. Let's see.
33:09
You know. Yeah.
33:11
OK. You ready?
33:13
Yeah. Let's step in.
33:15
Let's step in. Amazing.
33:16
OK, so just finding a straight spine, some sense of alertness
33:23
in your body. Yeah.
33:26
And to closing your eyes, connecting to your breath, note
33:37
the seeing how your breath moves in the body, how the breath
33:43
feels, and see if you can deepen the breath, make it slower and
33:52
make it a little bit longer. Perhaps you're holding some
33:59
tension in your shoulders or face, just relaxing into your
34:05
seated position and then in your mind.
34:12
I'd ask you to remember a stressful emotion or a
34:18
challenging situation that you currently are facing.
34:24
It's just bringing this challenge to life in your mind.
34:34
And once you have this challenge, I want you to freeze
34:37
it. So imagine taking it out of your
34:41
mind, placing it on the side, just freezing it for a moment,
34:48
and then making a sincere effort to shift your attention from the
34:52
mind into the heart, perhaps placing a hand on the heart and
34:58
start breathing in here into the heart.
35:07
Sensing the breath expanding and contracting in your chest and
35:19
bringing to mind a positive memory, something that brings
35:24
you joy that has happened. Really feeling this memory and
35:30
allowing this memory to expand your heart, to make it feel more
35:34
warm, more energy, perhaps even bringing a gentle smile to your
35:40
face. You're soaking up all that
35:46
warmth, all that positivity, really feeling it, and then
36:03
bringing back your challenge and asking your heart, what is the
36:12
best way for me to move forward here?
36:19
What is it that I truly want to be doing in this situation?
36:28
And here the mind might start wanting to engage and to
36:32
justify, to explain things. If it does, just thank you and
36:37
put it to the side for a moment and try to tap back into that
36:41
feeling in the heart. Ask in the heart, what do I want
36:47
to do in this situation? It might just be a sensation, a
36:57
word, a feeling, anything at that arises.
37:03
Just staying with that for a moment and then gently blinking
37:11
your eyes open. How does it feel?
37:21
Good. I noticed a couple of
37:25
interesting things. So I've for the listeners, I
37:29
have to handle my heart still, I tend to breathe through my
37:35
tummy. So I don't feel a lot of, let's
37:39
say, expansion in in my rib cage.
37:43
But that just this, I know that for some people, they breathe
37:49
much more into the chest and some other people breathe more
37:53
into the into their their belly. Second thing I noticed.
37:58
So the, the struggle I imagined is I'm working on this app, AI
38:07
app and I'm, I've convinced myself that I need to start to
38:11
learn to code. And for some reason or another
38:16
that's sort of not happening like I've did.
38:23
I've tried twice now and then I get something out and it's not
38:28
either I cannot visualize it or I, I, it's just not something
38:37
where I'm like, OK, yes, this is what I want.
38:43
So this is where my perfectionist self comes in.
38:48
And so I asked my, as you instructed my heart, OK, so how
38:57
do we feel about this and, and what, what should I do?
39:00
What do you think I should do? Or what, how do you feel?
39:05
What do you feel I should do? And the interesting, the answer
39:12
I got was give it time. Just take, take time.
39:18
If you think you, if you believe you need to learn how to code,
39:24
that's fine, but give it time, it will come.
39:31
So in that sense also, it gave my mind a rest, like, OK, at
39:37
some point this will come and that's whatever point that is,
39:42
is the right point. Yeah, well, thank you for
39:46
sharing that, first of all. And what I really like about
39:50
this insight is that immediately we might want to go to oh, if
39:54
you ask your heart, your heart will tell you don't code, don't
39:57
code because you're not enjoying it.
39:59
You know, this is kind of what the mind, this is what my heart
40:02
will be saying to dear. That's not what the heart was
40:07
saying. It's.
40:08
Give it time, have patience with yourself.
40:10
You know, it is a very powerful practice, this one and it that
40:16
helps myself and many of my my clients as well a lot in these
40:21
decisions. Is this also just going back
40:25
for, for a minute to, to what you just said the the
40:28
observation you just shared? So you'd think that my mind
40:33
would be saying, hey, where my heart would be saying no, no,
40:37
no, you don't feel if you don't feel like coding, don't do it.
40:42
Instead it said give, give it time.
40:45
It's OK. It's but the, the, the fear of
40:49
the mind interfering. I say thinking like, OK, but the
40:53
heart will. I know what the heart will tell
40:55
you because the heart will tell you that it's you don't have to
40:59
code, and I think you need to code.
41:00
So learn to code. So that's the internal chatter.
41:04
Is that internal chatter also one of the reasons that many
41:08
people don't try this type of exercises?
41:13
You mean because of the difficulty to to remove this
41:17
internal chatter? Yeah, of course, because we like
41:21
to know how to do things, to be good at things.
41:24
We don't want to spend hours on something that does not work in
41:29
the beginning before it starts working.
41:32
So of course this is a obstacle, you know, to go over, but it's
41:37
so worth it, you know, because that's when you actually can
41:41
start tapping into that inner wisdom that you're already
41:44
holding within, right. And usually I would say when you
41:48
know this, that it's a long explanation and it goes lots of
41:53
words, this is this, that it's usually the mind, the heart can
41:57
also speaking words, right? Like you were saying, usually
42:00
shorter. From my experience, it's
42:02
something very simple, very short.
42:03
Yeah, so I want to switch to another supporting tool.
42:07
Yeah. So there's meditation, there's
42:11
guided meditation, there's breath work and there's
42:14
something we discussed upfront. Micro dosing may be good to
42:22
start with. What is micro dosing?
42:26
Because we're not for the for context, we're not talking about
42:31
the recreational use of any drugs here.
42:35
We're using, talking about using substances that are in some
42:44
countries actually freely available.
42:46
I think in the Netherlands at least, that you can use to
42:51
increase performance. Yeah.
42:55
So what is micro dosing? Yeah.
42:59
Micro dosing is taking a small subperceptional dose of a
43:05
psychedelic active compound. So you mentioned here how it's
43:09
illegal in certain countries and in the Netherlands, for example,
43:13
we have legal truffles, right. And in truffles there's active
43:19
part, a compound is called psilocybin.
43:22
So this is the biochemical, the substance.
43:26
And I think what is important to highlight here is that when you
43:32
micro dose, you are not seeking or you should not be feeling
43:35
high, you should not be feeling headache afterwards.
43:39
You should not feel literary afterwards.
43:41
It's sub perceptional, it's beneath your perception, and it
43:45
acts just as a very gentle, gentle, barely noticeable
43:50
technology tool. Help you shift certain things in
43:54
your life, right? OK.
43:58
So superceptional if I understand it correctly is is
44:03
like you do not maybe a bit notice it, but it's not as you
44:10
said it's not going straight to a high.
44:13
Yeah, it's so it's really small dose also of the of the
44:17
compound. Yeah.
44:19
So you do not notice the, as you mentioned drug, what's used in
44:25
in this field of work. We used to use the word medicine
44:28
actually because it has such many therapeutical effects.
44:32
You don't notice the medicine and you notice the effects it
44:36
has on you and your life. Like for example increased focus
44:40
or whatever it might be, increased mood.
44:43
OK, so so talk to me about the benefits this has.
44:50
So we talked a lot today, right about the importance of these
44:54
different practices to go inwards, to tune in rather than
44:58
tuning out. For me, from my own experience,
45:01
the absolute biggest reason why I'm using it is because it is a
45:06
tool that micro dosing is a tool that helps me to reconnect more
45:11
to myself, to others and to nature.
45:15
It's basically taking a piece of nature that allows me to connect
45:18
better to that. And of course, because I'm
45:20
nature as well, it has to connect with myself.
45:22
It helps me be more aware, more pressed and more in my body.
45:26
I move. I feel more feminine.
45:29
For me personally, maybe because I am a woman.
45:33
Maybe it's different for you there come if you'd explore it.
45:38
Yeah. So it's really for me about the
45:41
connection to myself and nature. That's also why I use it.
45:44
For example, in the nature workshops I'm doing.
45:46
It's optional, but the women can decide to take a micro dose to
45:49
experience that feeling when we flow and when we are in nature
45:53
together. That's number one.
45:56
And #2 that I also really feel it's getting into a flow state.
46:00
So being more focused and being able to maintain that focus and
46:04
enjoyment of that for a longer time.
46:06
And this is also there's quite a lot of research on that they see
46:10
with the micro dosing. So we know that a flow, there's
46:15
something called the flow cycle which goes through first the
46:21
struggle, then the release, then the flow and then the recovery.
46:26
So let's say you, you want to build your, you want to code,
46:31
right? You have this struggle in the
46:34
beginning. You don't get into the flow,
46:36
you're procrastinating. It doesn't happen naturally,
46:39
right? Which?
46:41
Which by the way is a normal way that this these processes run.
46:48
I just want to to highlight that because everyone procrastinates,
46:53
I think I heard some word that the 1st 10 minutes you're not,
46:57
it takes about 10 to 15 minutes to get anywhere near flow state.
47:02
You need that struggle first where you're in a phase where
47:06
you're like switching on, switching off and trying to
47:10
concentrate, trying to focus. Yeah.
47:13
And that's drug. A phase could be indeed 10 to 15
47:15
minutes. It could also be hours.
47:17
It could also be days. Yeah, where in my case months if
47:21
you if we talk about coding. But now your heart tells you,
47:27
take it slowly, have patience. So we'll see when when you fall
47:30
into the other, you know, if it happens.
47:33
And then you get into this release date, right?
47:35
And perhaps you go out for a walk, you change, you know, your
47:38
mind, put it on something else. And then you're allowed to
47:41
release and come back into finding this flow, this flow.
47:45
You're there, but you can't be there forever.
47:48
So you end up needing to be in a recovery state, right?
47:51
Yeah. What we see, what research shows
47:54
us, is that the micro dosing shortens the struggle phase and
47:59
deepens the flow state. OK.
48:03
Yeah. Any any insights on how that
48:09
works? How it shortens the the the
48:13
struggle phase? What does it do in
48:16
bioclimically? What does it do?
48:19
I actually don't want to say something around this right now
48:22
because I don't have a clear answer, but there is a lot of
48:25
research around it and I could also include something in the in
48:29
the show notes around this research around the, the, the
48:32
flow states for people to look in a little bit more in depth.
48:35
Yeah, well, let's let's do it like that.
48:38
Yeah. But what we know, what's happens
48:40
in general with psychedelics in a neurochemical sense, a
48:43
biochemical sense, is that you have a part of your brain called
48:47
the default mode network, which is the executive part of your
48:52
brain. So it decides, you know, it's a
48:53
lot of neurons firing all the time.
48:55
Not everything is listened to, which brain regions can
48:59
communicate with each other, which signals are actually
49:01
processed in the default mode network is also where the seat
49:06
of the the self is the seat of the identity because it is where
49:11
we are experiencing the future and the past.
49:14
When you take psychedelics or when you get into deep
49:18
meditation into a deep yoga practice, we see in brain scans
49:22
that the same thing happen and that is that the default no mode
49:26
network decreases in its activity, meaning that the brain
49:30
can communicate in new ways. The neuroplasticity increase the
49:34
ability to rewire and, and, and right new neural pathways.
49:40
We also see that the self decreases, hence the connection
49:44
to nature, to others, to the oneness that people very much
49:49
explain in spiritual experiences, right?
49:52
So this is what we see happen with psychedelics, especially in
49:56
a higher dose. In a lower dose, this happens on
49:58
a smaller scale. OK.
50:01
If founders want to export this this micro dosing, of course
50:06
Reed your research, take it in, decide if it's for you, yes or
50:12
no. But if it's for you, what is a
50:15
say? What is a good protocol to use
50:18
and what is? What is the safest way into
50:21
this? Yeah.
50:24
First of all, before I go into how to microdose, let's say,
50:30
yeah, I want to be into should you or should you not?
50:34
Yeah, From my perspective, micro dosing is not something you just
50:41
take in the morning and then you do don't do any of your other
50:43
practices. It's not a quick fix or nothing
50:45
like that. It's a tool you can use as a
50:48
complement, almost like you're increasing the strength a little
50:52
bit of your orotic system practices.
50:54
So we're talking here about the aborting praxodic meditation,
50:58
breath work going in nature yoga, this that puts you in that
51:01
flow state. It allows you to deepen that
51:03
more. So before trying, this is about
51:08
actually first trying what you can do without this biochemical
51:13
substance. And especially here breath work
51:19
is the one I would recommend because breath work can mimic
51:23
quite similarly that experience of the micro dose when you do
51:28
breath work. Also because that increase in
51:30
oxygen decreases the default mode, net default mode network.
51:35
So for example, going to a yoga studio or studio or workshop
51:40
around breath work and explore that a few times and just get to
51:43
know the state of yours. Then you can add this as a
51:47
holistic complement to your practices.
51:50
That's the first. If you feel over time that wow,
51:52
I'm already doing this so I started doing that.
51:54
It feels good. I want to explore micro dosing.
51:56
There are a few things to think about that the research points
52:00
to. First of them is indeed like
52:02
you're saying, following a protocol and being consistent.
52:05
There are protocols, the beginner protocols called the
52:07
Fadiman protocol, which means that you are one day taking two
52:13
days off, one day on, two days off for about one month to six
52:16
weeks. Usually you follow a protocol.
52:19
There is another one called the stomach stack, which is a little
52:23
bit more for experience. We are four days on, three days
52:26
off, 4 days on, three days off. So there's different here.
52:29
So following a protocol is important and then tracking
52:33
because why you're doing this, you know, to to create some
52:36
changes in your life. How is your mood changing, your
52:39
creativity, your focus, all these things.
52:42
The second thing is, of course, finding the right dose.
52:44
As I mentioned, you don't want to be into this feeling very
52:50
perceptually the difference. You don't want to crash
52:53
afterwards, right? Starting lower than one than
52:58
than the average I would say and then working your way up and
53:02
finding that sweet spot. And usually when you take them
53:06
the travels in the Netherlands, it can be between O .25 to 1g
53:12
approximate. So maybe start with O .5g you
53:14
know, and the other parts that is extremely important.
53:21
They not only these practices, but in all practices you do
53:23
first of all intention setting. What is your intention for that
53:26
day, for every day during this the the period perhaps what is
53:31
your intention for the whole period?
53:32
What is the focus? You can go back in the evening,
53:35
how did I do on this intention? Because intention setting in
53:39
general just allows you to move forward towards who you want to
53:42
be, becoming right in a more quicker and more embodied way.
53:47
And then the integration. So how do you just not leave it
53:50
there, but actually seeing the micro dosing or any of these
53:53
practices, not just the end goal, but as a door through
53:56
where you can continue working, understanding yourself and
53:58
integrate this into your life and really process these
54:01
experiences? Yeah.
54:05
So first to recap, starting exploring these practices, put
54:08
them into place, your own embodied practices, explore
54:11
breath work. How does that feel?
54:13
If you want to explore micro dosing, following this, have a
54:15
protocol, have a structure measure, find the right dosage,
54:19
set intentions, integrate it and have this always doing all these
54:24
things always as part of your practice.
54:27
Yeah. So how do you measure results?
54:30
Yeah. So it depends on which results
54:32
you want, right? What what I've been so you can
54:36
measure it in which is my intention, right?
54:39
For example, my intention is to, yeah, do less, be more present
54:46
with myself and be OK in just being.
54:49
We know how you put goals. Most female founders know that.
54:53
SMART goals or whatever structure you want to use, How
54:55
do you make this tangible or ACRS, whatever KPIs, still very
55:00
valuable tools even if you do more spiritual things, right?
55:03
It's the balance between the two, setting those out for
55:07
yourself and tracking against them.
55:10
But then I also suggest a general tracking, so stuff like
55:14
energy levels, mood, creativity, focus, mapping out these things.
55:20
This is what I have in my protocol.
55:22
And if I would do coaching with someone and we decide to pair
55:25
this coaching with the micro dosing, then I help them build
55:29
and use this tracking system, of course.
55:31
OK, so measuring from one to 10 each day, for example, and
55:34
seeing how that changes over time?
55:36
Yeah. And then also logging how that
55:41
changes your quote UN quote performance.
55:45
Yeah. Yeah, exactly.
55:46
And how you how you feel? Also, and and what is
55:50
performance? I mean performance, it can be
55:54
performance in your output, but it could also be performance in
55:58
not performance as in how do I feel?
56:00
Might well be right? So both are important, right?
56:04
It's it, both are important. So building a tracking system
56:08
that includes what is important to you.
56:12
OK, Final question on this. What is a sign when you've taken
56:18
too much? You talked about headaches.
56:22
Yeah, from my experience, so this is also worth highlighting.
56:29
I'm talking from my own experience.
56:31
I'm talking from the experience of some of the people that I've
56:34
helped in their inner journey by using micro dosing as a tool to
56:38
tap into themselves, right? So there's lots of research to
56:41
look into this further. What I've experienced from
56:44
myself is that I'm feeling a sense of shift in perception.
56:51
I might notice, oh gosh, I look at this, wow, I'm really looking
56:55
at this tree for a long time now.
56:58
Or I'm feeling very, very energized, but I'm crashing
57:02
afterwards. And the third thing I felt is a
57:04
headache after that crash. Then I should be lower, right?
57:09
I shouldn't feel any of these things.
57:11
OK, So this is important. Also, I think this has to do
57:16
with dopamine. I'm not an expert on this, but
57:19
from what I've heard on podcasts from Huberman Labs is that if
57:23
you take a drug to be high, it increases dopamine and that is
57:29
something that's in effect that you're going to have to give
57:32
back later. So the extra amount of dopamine,
57:38
this is not exactly how it works, but it's, it's, it's a
57:41
way of describing that I have, I'm not a medical doctor.
57:45
Yeah, of course. Yeah.
57:47
But the way the the extra dopamine you consume as a result
57:52
of a quote UN quote high is then later you have to refill that
58:00
dopamine in your body. So it's sort of a depth that you
58:06
literally a dopamine depth that you create to your body like a
58:11
I'm adapted. I understand.
58:15
And that's that is what cause what is causing the crashing
58:18
feeling. Yeah, in, in indeed the the
58:21
dopamine is connected to a reward system, right?
58:25
So in our feeling of pleasure and enjoyment.
58:28
So if you would activate your dopamine too much, then you
58:32
would the day after when you come down feel a little bit more
58:36
emptiness on those parts. But what actually actually,
58:38
actually happens with the the psychedelic substance micro
58:42
dosing is that it binds to the serotonin receptors.
58:46
And this is what allows you to also move beyond and soften
58:51
these more rigid thinking patterns and create these neural
58:54
connections, right? So you increase this neural
58:56
flexibility with the dopamine. It might be the case, but I'm
59:00
not sure if this is the case with with this or not.
59:04
So I wouldn't need to look in into that.
59:06
But indeed not getting into the stage where you're feeling the
59:09
crash is important. If you do things like eating
59:13
sugar foods with sugar, high sugar content or of course also
59:18
if you're on an empty belly, you slept little, you're stressed,
59:21
you will feel the the effect of the microtose more.
59:26
So thing like eating could also help you ground more in your
59:30
body if you notice that you would take too much.
59:33
Thank you for explaining this and sort of a as a disclaimer
59:40
after the fact, neither of us is a medical doctor.
59:43
So make sure you feature research and then also use use
59:51
this safety. With that, I want to shift to my
59:59
last question. Already.
1:00:02
Yeah, already. Yeah, we've been, we've been
1:00:04
talking. Well, you've been talking for an
1:00:08
hour. For most of the hour.
1:00:11
Yeah. So I'm developing an AI coach
1:00:16
that basically links female founders to investors.
1:00:23
You originally come from that world you worked at world
1:00:30
startup for, for instance. So if I can tap into your brain
1:00:37
for a moment, what's 1 essential element that is needed in the
1:00:43
tool that links female founders with investors through AI that
1:00:50
would truly empower founders without replicating the biases
1:00:54
that are in the current system? Right, women found racing is a
1:01:01
stressful moment. That's one thing I got clear
1:01:05
working with women entrepreneurs, right?
1:01:08
And especially out on as you're saying, the bias makes it even
1:01:13
more stressful because you need to once again fit and mould into
1:01:16
certain role, meet certain expectations that might be
1:01:19
different for women than they feel for men, right.
1:01:23
So indeed, your, your, your platform is about increasing
1:01:28
access to capital. But what we should not forget as
1:01:33
well is how is that experience, that process?
1:01:35
How how is that psychological safety or that well-being also
1:01:40
part of this experience for the women?
1:01:43
So perhaps a simple thing like a micro practice to do before
1:01:50
going into the investor room of how to actually calm down, get
1:01:55
into your the right state. You know, another thing which I
1:02:00
also noticed working that would impact entrepreneurship is that,
1:02:03
and this we discussed in last podcast, women tend to be more
1:02:07
likely to build impact driven companies, purpose driven
1:02:10
companies. What happens when you're seek
1:02:12
investment or you need to adhere to more extractive models,
1:02:16
right, You need to start looking more at profit that it than
1:02:19
purpose, and this creates a dis alignment with the value,
1:02:22
something that doesn't feel equally as authentic, which imp
1:02:25
which impacts their well-being, right.
1:02:28
So also being able in your tool to support women to continue
1:02:33
being purpose driven when investors, helping them find the
1:02:39
right investors for the values and their purpose.
1:02:41
And second of all, also helping them to communicate their their
1:02:50
indications of success of their impact or well-being metrics as
1:02:54
well. I think these things would be
1:02:58
very vital in a, in A and you have such a great opportunity to
1:03:01
implement stuff like that into your platform.
1:03:05
Yeah, I do. Yeah.
1:03:08
That's So what I'm hearing you say is also to sort of give
1:03:16
space for female founders to show to, to not only align let's
1:03:23
say on the business case, but also on the value part with
1:03:27
investors. And then which sounds easy is
1:03:35
not. So I'm not right now.
1:03:38
My mind is racing, OK, how am I going to build that?
1:03:43
But that's a question that probably will be answered at
1:03:49
some point. And it's an important question,
1:03:51
right, because it actually in a very nice way connects it back
1:03:55
to the beginning of the first question where we talked about
1:03:59
that whisper, right, of actually staying in alignment with what
1:04:03
is true to you and building a business for anyone that's done
1:04:08
that. I know how it is.
1:04:09
I'm building 1 right now, right around these topics.
1:04:12
It's, it is kind of your whole life in the first few years.
1:04:18
And if that whole life is not feeling right and true, girl,
1:04:23
will you not feel good? You know?
1:04:26
So staying true to that, it's important.
1:04:29
And if you can support them in that in any way, I think that's
1:04:33
very, very valuable work. Well, I'm for sure going to try
1:04:38
it. Let's do it.
1:04:40
Ellis Bavin, thank you again for an amazing conversation.
1:04:47
Totally different from. Well, no, no, that's not
1:04:50
actually true, but but substantially different from
1:04:54
from our first one. Yeah.
1:04:57
It's been a good episode. Though.
1:04:59
Yeah. Oh yeah.
1:05:00
To listen to Yeah. So I'll link to it in the show
1:05:03
notes. It's episode 51.
1:05:06
Where can people learn more about you?
1:05:09
Where can they connect with you? Yeah, indeed.
1:05:13
Yeah. So if you're an ambitious woman
1:05:14
in any way that wants to move through this process of going
1:05:19
more closer to who you truly are, right?
1:05:22
There's various things I do. I do the coaching, I do
1:05:24
different workshops. Also just share free tips,
1:05:27
advice, practices like some of the ones we went through today
1:05:30
on my socials. And you can find everything
1:05:32
under Alice Pavin on Instagram, on LinkedIn and also my website
1:05:37
is Alice Pavin. Yeah, and we'll link to all of
1:05:40
that in the show notes. Alice Pavin, once again, thank
1:05:44
you very much for an amazing conversation.
1:05:49
Listeners, thank you very much for listening and watching in
1:05:54
this case because this also is on video.
1:05:58
And until the next episode, as always, keep being awesome.
1:06:14
Well, that's it. Thank you for listening to
1:06:16
episode 141 of Women Disrupting Text titled How Heart Centered
1:06:21
Leadership Helps Female Founders Prevent burnout with Ellis
1:06:25
Bavin. If you have any questions for
1:06:28
Ellis, please leave them in the comments on YouTube, Spotify, or
1:06:32
Apple podcast. I do read all the comments and
1:06:35
I'll make sure you get an answer.
1:06:38
Alice has also developed a guide that helps you go deeper inward
1:06:42
and understand your path to well-being and success.
1:06:45
You can download the guide via the link in the show notes.
1:06:49
In the show notes you can also find links to connect with Alice
1:06:53
and learn more about her work. As usual, you can find the show
1:06:56
notes at Women Disrupting Tactile Block and on My Sub
1:07:00
Stack via the link in the caption.
1:07:03
If you found this episode useful, please take a moment to
1:07:06
rate and review the show on Spotify, Apple Podcasts or
1:07:10
YouTube. And if you haven't already, hit
1:07:13
the follow or subscribe button so you never miss a future
1:07:16
episode. Once again, thank you for
1:07:18
listening. I hope to see you in the next
1:07:21
episode, and until then, as always, keep being awesome.