Latest / Drama, Darling: A Real Housewives Comedy Podcast / Darling, Bish Hour: Surviving Mormonism

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Darling, Bish Hour: Surviving Mormonism · Drama, Darling: A Real Housewives Comedy Podcast

• 0:00
  Speaker 1: Hi, friends, It's me your girl, Melissa Raik and.
• 0:04
  Speaker 2: Amy Phillips, your other girl, and we're here for our
• 0:09
  Speaker 2: darling Darling bisch Hour.
• 0:12
  Speaker 1: We're really bad at this.
• 0:13
  Speaker 2: We got it. We're getting you know, we're never going
• 0:15
  Speaker 2: to get it right. And that's okay because it's the
• 0:16
  Speaker 2: end of the year. We don't need to get it right.
• 0:18
  Speaker 2: We're done almost, that's right, We're almost done. She's done,
• 0:21
  Speaker 2: she's done.
• 0:22
  Speaker 1: We're we're wrapping it up, we're putting it in the
• 0:25
  Speaker 1: can because this year is almost over. And can I
• 0:29
  Speaker 1: say praise be because I don't know about you, Amy,
• 0:32
  Speaker 1: but this year for me has been a real shit show.
• 0:35
  Speaker 2: Oh gosh, I said, with a joyous laugh. You know,
• 0:39
  Speaker 2: that's what we have to do. And we're going to
• 0:41
  Speaker 2: bring that joyous laughter into twenty twenty six and it's
• 0:44
  Speaker 2: going to be fantastic.
• 0:46
  Speaker 1: It is so for everyone listening. Amy and I are
• 0:49
  Speaker 1: so happy to have you here for our last Darling
• 0:53
  Speaker 1: bisch Hour of the year of twenty twenty five.
• 0:57
  Speaker 2: Oh, the darlings love you so much, I have to say.
• 1:00
  Speaker 2: And I know your bishes is that what do you
• 1:04
  Speaker 2: call them?
• 1:05
  Speaker 1: Well, I don't really call them anything, but I think
• 1:07
  Speaker 1: they call themselves Bishes. I think they do.
• 1:09
  Speaker 2: Yeah right, okay, yeah you're not like, hey Bishes. Well
• 1:12
  Speaker 2: I'll just say hey Bishes and hey darlings. What an
• 1:15
  Speaker 2: amazing group you guys are and thanks for always supporting
• 1:19
  Speaker 2: us and we love it, which is why I want
• 1:21
  Speaker 2: to reiterate that we are going to be doing a
• 1:24
  Speaker 2: new collab. This is the second iteration of our official
• 1:27
  Speaker 2: collab that will happen every month now. So we're very
• 1:31
  Speaker 2: excited about that going into twenty twenty six and like
• 1:34
  Speaker 2: it's on the book, so we're going to keep it going.
• 1:37
  Speaker 2: That's our plan. And so just thanks for being psyched
• 1:40
  Speaker 2: about our little collab here.
• 1:42
  Speaker 1: I mean absolutely, the darling Bishes. I just appreciate them
• 1:46
  Speaker 1: so very much. When we started doing the clab, I
• 1:49
  Speaker 1: got a lot of feedback, a lot of great comments.
• 1:51
  Speaker 1: So people are here for it, and we are here
• 1:54
  Speaker 1: for you, and we are so grateful for all of you.
• 1:56
  Speaker 1: I mean not to sound so cheesy, but I mean
• 1:59
  Speaker 1: I did it be here literally without Amy Phillips. I'm
• 2:04
  Speaker 1: not joking. The reason I'm here is because of you, Amy,
• 2:08
  Speaker 1: and because of all the listeners. Because for those who
• 2:10
  Speaker 1: maybe don't know or don't remember. I was not even
• 2:14
  Speaker 1: doing this. And then I called into Amy's radio show
• 2:18
  Speaker 1: when you were on Sirius XM, and we connected, and
• 2:22
  Speaker 1: from there, your Therapist was born. I don't even know
• 2:25
  Speaker 1: if you remember, Amy, but the first time I was
• 2:27
  Speaker 1: on your show, I wasn't even your bish therapist. I
• 2:30
  Speaker 1: had nothing you would promote. I wasn't even me.
• 2:33
  Speaker 2: No, you were just you being you, and and I
• 2:38
  Speaker 2: was but a conduit that was just like an electric
• 2:42
  Speaker 2: line that just went from here to there and just said, hey, guys,
• 2:47
  Speaker 2: you know, I'm just holding up two ends of the
• 2:49
  Speaker 2: sticks here and welcoming in the unbelievable talent that is you.
• 2:53
  Speaker 2: Oh you know, it could have been anyone. And I'm
• 2:55
  Speaker 2: just glad that the universe, if you will, or God
• 2:58
  Speaker 2: or whomever, shows me me to be the person who
• 3:03
  Speaker 2: hands out to you the platform in which you are
• 3:06
  Speaker 2: so born to embody and guide. And it's truly remarkable. Melissa.
• 3:13
  Speaker 2: I mean you are just like you know, instant meals
• 3:17
  Speaker 2: or instant this instant hot chocolate, anything you put into
• 3:20
  Speaker 2: the microwave and it's done. I mean, that's like you.
• 3:22
  Speaker 2: It's like I met you and it was just like,
• 3:26
  Speaker 2: oh my God, she's unbelievable, Like you're just done. So
• 3:32
  Speaker 2: I have nothing to do with anything except for just
• 3:36
  Speaker 2: being an unbelievably lucky player in your story. So thanks
• 3:40
  Speaker 2: for just like being in an incredible person and you've
• 3:45
  Speaker 2: helped so many people, Melissa, you have well.
• 3:49
  Speaker 1: That is very sweet and very humble, but I you know,
• 3:52
  Speaker 1: I just want to give you your flowers, but also
• 3:55
  Speaker 1: thank you to the people. I am grateful that I
• 3:59
  Speaker 1: am using just my experience, strength and hope to help
• 4:01
  Speaker 1: other people because you know, I think it made me
• 4:04
  Speaker 1: sad not being able to practice as a therapist due
• 4:07
  Speaker 1: to my health issues, but not to be able to
• 4:09
  Speaker 1: reach people on a bigger platform. You know, I think
• 4:13
  Speaker 1: sometimes people are determined to misunderstand me, and that's fine,
• 4:16
  Speaker 1: that's fair. I understand not everyone is going to get it.
• 4:19
  Speaker 1: But this fills my soul. This makes me feel like
• 4:24
  Speaker 1: I cannot work anymore because of my health, but I
• 4:27
  Speaker 1: can do this and still reach people and connect with
• 4:30
  Speaker 1: people and help people and all of those things.
• 4:34
  Speaker 2: If it wasn't me leading you to this situation, it
• 4:37
  Speaker 2: would have been someone or something else, because this is
• 4:40
  Speaker 2: your destiny.
• 4:41
  Speaker 1: So anyway, enough of that love fest. You know, that, yes,
• 4:45
  Speaker 1: love it. That was really important to start out with.
• 4:48
  Speaker 1: But today what Amy and I are going to be
• 4:50
  Speaker 1: covering is Surviving Mormonism, which is Heather Gaze docu. I
• 4:57
  Speaker 1: guess it was a docu series. Three episode doc series.
• 5:00
  Speaker 2: Which really ended with what seemed like to be continued, right,
• 5:05
  Speaker 2: I mean definitely, Okay, So do you think we're going
• 5:08
  Speaker 2: to be getting more episodes like next year or something
• 5:12
  Speaker 2: like that?
• 5:13
  Speaker 1: Is that?
• 5:13
  Speaker 2: Where do you think we're going or are they just
• 5:15
  Speaker 2: going to see how it I wonder if that's like
• 5:17
  Speaker 2: the first three, to see how it goes, and if
• 5:19
  Speaker 2: it's successful, then they'll pick it up again. I wonder
• 5:22
  Speaker 2: what the business plan is for this.
• 5:24
  Speaker 1: Well, I guess what they would need is more victims,
• 5:28
  Speaker 1: more people to tell their stories. And as long as
• 5:30
  Speaker 1: they have that, I think you know how it ended
• 5:34
  Speaker 1: was with Heather kind of getting and we'll talk about
• 5:36
  Speaker 1: this at the end, but she got like a really
• 5:39
  Speaker 1: sick piece of information at the end of filming this
• 5:43
  Speaker 1: and she was saying, I'm committed to doing this. Heather
• 5:47
  Speaker 1: Gay is kind of like, for those who haven't watched
• 5:50
  Speaker 1: Surviving Mormonism, I'll kind of lay out the groundwork which
• 5:53
  Speaker 1: it's three episodes, and it's Heather sharing some of her
• 5:56
  Speaker 1: experiences with Mormonism. But it's really giving victims who have
• 6:01
  Speaker 1: been agregeously agregeously abused from the church or people at
• 6:08
  Speaker 1: the church, giving those people a platform. And so what
• 6:11
  Speaker 1: I liked Amy is that it gave Heather we got
• 6:15
  Speaker 1: a little peek into some of her personal stuff. There
• 6:19
  Speaker 1: was one specific part that she shared that just stuck.
• 6:23
  Speaker 1: It was like burned into my brain. But to give
• 6:26
  Speaker 1: all these people who have been traumatized a voice is
• 6:29
  Speaker 1: literally the best if you can give trauma survivors is
• 6:32
  Speaker 1: to be heard, to be believed, to be validated. What
• 6:36
  Speaker 1: I will start out with is a trigger warning because
• 6:39
  Speaker 1: while Amy and I are going to try to you know,
• 6:42
  Speaker 1: bring some some levity and you know, lightness to the
• 6:46
  Speaker 1: to the situation, we are really going to be talking
• 6:48
  Speaker 1: about very heavy concepts of child abuse, specifically sexual abuse, pedophilia.
• 6:55
  Speaker 1: I mean, it's really gonna get kind of dark. What
• 6:59
  Speaker 1: I plan to do is talk a lot about clinical
• 7:01
  Speaker 1: concepts about how cults, the psychological concepts that cults use,
• 7:07
  Speaker 1: how they get away with this kind of behavior. So,
• 7:09
  Speaker 1: like I'm going to share a little bit of those
• 7:11
  Speaker 1: clinical insights, and then Amy and I are going to
• 7:14
  Speaker 1: just talk about the series, right.
• 7:17
  Speaker 2: Great, Yeah, that's great. Thank you for giving that trigger warning.
• 7:20
  Speaker 2: And I certainly when I put this on, I really
• 7:24
  Speaker 2: did not expect it to be like Heather Gay in
• 7:27
  Speaker 2: the car, like on her you know, expedition to talk
• 7:32
  Speaker 2: to victims. I didn't see it like that. It was
• 7:34
  Speaker 2: very I love the way it was done. It was
• 7:37
  Speaker 2: gritty in terms of her like driving to these people's homes,
• 7:42
  Speaker 2: and very you know, on the road journalism. I thought
• 7:45
  Speaker 2: it was really fascinating. I think she and not to
• 7:50
  Speaker 2: I'm not going to jump to the end in general,
• 7:52
  Speaker 2: I just want to say that when she was brave
• 7:55
  Speaker 2: enough to explore the idea and the revelation that she
• 8:01
  Speaker 2: was raised in a cult was the biggest boom aha
• 8:08
  Speaker 2: thing that I think she has been willing to say
• 8:11
  Speaker 2: that she was probably really reticent to say. And for
• 8:14
  Speaker 2: it to end on that was like wow, because you know,
• 8:18
  Speaker 2: you obviously, with all your training and all your understanding,
• 8:21
  Speaker 2: see it as plain as day, and for me, I
• 8:24
  Speaker 2: just forget, you know, I forget how normalized so many
• 8:28
  Speaker 2: things are, so normalized certain things are, and then when
• 8:32
  Speaker 2: you get to the end you realize, wow, yeah, And
• 8:34
  Speaker 2: she didn't even realize it as much as the good
• 8:36
  Speaker 2: intentions are there and she's not faulting her parents as
• 8:40
  Speaker 2: much as the good experience she's had. But at the
• 8:43
  Speaker 2: end of the day, she was like, I was raised
• 8:44
  Speaker 2: in a cult. And that was like really compelling, and
• 8:49
  Speaker 2: I thought, very very powerful.
• 8:51
  Speaker 1: I completely agree. And what I could appreciate is that
• 8:56
  Speaker 1: you know, as a clinician, when you meet with people
• 9:00
  Speaker 1: who have had significant trauma, you can see it in
• 9:04
  Speaker 1: their rise. You can see that there's something missing for them.
• 9:08
  Speaker 1: Like just Ben is a good example of that, which
• 9:10
  Speaker 1: we'll talk about him in a minute. So Heather, what
• 9:13
  Speaker 1: she did is she featured several dozen victims. Some of
• 9:17
  Speaker 1: them were featured like kind of on zooms and little snippets,
• 9:21
  Speaker 1: but there were a couple people who were interviewed for
• 9:23
  Speaker 1: the show. And what I think is that when I
• 9:25
  Speaker 1: saw Heather talk about at the end realizing that she
• 9:29
  Speaker 1: was raised in a cult, I saw that piece of
• 9:32
  Speaker 1: her that you can't get that back right because it
• 9:36
  Speaker 1: taints all of your experiences. Like Heather was saying, Hey,
• 9:40
  Speaker 1: never experience this. I had great experience as a Mormon,
• 9:44
  Speaker 1: but seeing the undeniable systemic abuse that's happened. I think
• 9:50
  Speaker 1: it creates for a lot of people what's called cognitive dissonance,
• 9:53
  Speaker 1: which is where we don't want to believe something right.
• 9:57
  Speaker 1: So there's like a gap between our lived ex experience
• 10:00
  Speaker 1: and then there's some denial there. But then there's things
• 10:04
  Speaker 1: that happen that force our brain to kind of reconcile that,
• 10:08
  Speaker 1: and that breaks what's called cognitive dissonance, which is we
• 10:11
  Speaker 1: can no longer ignore those things that we've been maybe like, oh, well,
• 10:17
  Speaker 1: I've heard about that, but you know, and for her,
• 10:20
  Speaker 1: when you saw it was something she couldn't ignore, it
• 10:23
  Speaker 1: was sad. I saw grief in her.
• 10:24
  Speaker 2: Eyes, you know, and you saw her really struggling with
• 10:27
  Speaker 2: having to say it out loud because she feels probably
• 10:30
  Speaker 2: like she's betraying her family by saying what you did
• 10:34
  Speaker 2: to me, even though my life was really good, was
• 10:38
  Speaker 2: wrong or you know, you could see that struggle, and
• 10:41
  Speaker 2: I get it, like, you don't want to betray your
• 10:43
  Speaker 2: family either. You love them and they had the best
• 10:45
  Speaker 2: of intentions, just like anybody does. But yeah, that was
• 10:49
  Speaker 2: tough to see.
• 10:50
  Speaker 1: It was tough to see. So what I want to
• 10:52
  Speaker 1: start out is just like laying out the definition of
• 10:56
  Speaker 1: a call. It's very short and sweet. A call is
• 10:58
  Speaker 1: defined as a group or movement that uses manipulative tactics
• 11:02
  Speaker 1: to control and exploit its members, plain and simple. Now,
• 11:05
  Speaker 1: there's a lot more to religious trauma and the psychology
• 11:09
  Speaker 1: of cults, but before we got into all of it,
• 11:12
  Speaker 1: I wanted to make sure people knew that definition. And
• 11:14
  Speaker 1: the other thing about a cult that I have to
• 11:17
  Speaker 1: point out is that no one joins voluntarily. They're recruited
• 11:21
  Speaker 1: by systemic social influence processes. So either you're born into
• 11:27
  Speaker 1: it or like we saw in Surviving Mormonism, every single
• 11:32
  Speaker 1: person who was interviewed, that was their life there. It
• 11:36
  Speaker 1: wasn't it was the church. There was no separation of
• 11:39
  Speaker 1: church and state. Their church was their neighborhood. Their neighborhood
• 11:42
  Speaker 1: was there. You know, they have all these different names
• 11:45
  Speaker 1: for their wards and their states, and they're this and
• 11:48
  Speaker 1: they're that, But in reality, it's like, you didn't see
• 11:51
  Speaker 1: people practicing Mormonism and living their life. Their life was Mormonism. Yeah,
• 11:56
  Speaker 1: and that is kind of a red flag what I
• 11:59
  Speaker 1: appreciated with episode one, there was three episodes. Episode one
• 12:03
  Speaker 1: really kind of laid the groundwork in my interpretation of
• 12:08
  Speaker 1: how Mormonism got its foothold, and you know how it
• 12:12
  Speaker 1: kind of came together, and.
• 12:14
  Speaker 2: Still love that. Yeah, good broad strokes, just in case
• 12:18
  Speaker 2: you didn't know, this is how it all started. Yeah, right.
• 12:22
  Speaker 1: And so a couple of things that I want to
• 12:24
  Speaker 1: point out that are really wild is that the church
• 12:28
  Speaker 1: has there's three levels of heaven and to get there,
• 12:32
  Speaker 1: you need to live a life of perfection. Okay, let's
• 12:37
  Speaker 1: just stop there, Amy, Yeah, okay, Right, So one thing
• 12:40
  Speaker 1: I'm going to tell you about humans and human nature. Y'all,
• 12:44
  Speaker 1: we are very imperfect creatures, okay, And this tenant in
• 12:49
  Speaker 1: and of itself is a setup for failure for every
• 12:52
  Speaker 1: single human being that agrees. And it's like, yes, because
• 12:57
  Speaker 1: perfection doesn't exist. I don't know if you know they.
• 13:02
  Speaker 2: So well speak for yourself, Melissa. I'm sitting pretty pretty
• 13:05
  Speaker 2: over here anyway, nothing to see over here. But yeah,
• 13:09
  Speaker 2: I mean it is a recipe for explosion, you know
• 13:14
  Speaker 2: what I mean. It's like you put the I don't
• 13:19
  Speaker 2: know what do you call the junior mints in the
• 13:21
  Speaker 2: in the the fago, and then's the science experiment, you
• 13:24
  Speaker 2: know what I mean? Explodes. I don't know what it is, ornto.
• 13:28
  Speaker 1: In the soda.
• 13:29
  Speaker 2: The meter of soda just pops up. Like my daughter was, like,
• 13:32
  Speaker 2: we had we had a we had a science rally
• 13:35
  Speaker 2: the other day and that's what they did. So you know,
• 13:37
  Speaker 2: it's like that, that is what it is. You're that's
• 13:40
  Speaker 2: what's gonna happen, literally, wear or another literally.
• 13:43
  Speaker 1: And then you add to that the deeply deeply racist, homophobic,
• 13:49
  Speaker 1: and misogynistic culture of the doctrine. You know, organized religion
• 13:54
  Speaker 1: for me is it's I grew up Catholic and they
• 13:58
  Speaker 1: have a lot of similar issues to mormonas. Okay, so yeah,
• 14:01
  Speaker 1: we're bonded in that trauma for me, but I feel
• 14:05
  Speaker 1: like organized religion there's a lot of things about it
• 14:08
  Speaker 1: that can lead to these really kind of cult like approaches.
• 14:12
  Speaker 1: I wanted to go in with an open mind, but
• 14:15
  Speaker 1: after watching these three episodes, it is undeniable that the
• 14:19
  Speaker 1: doctrine is homophobic, misogynistic, and racist.
• 14:23
  Speaker 2: It just is it just I felt I feel the
• 14:26
  Speaker 2: same way as well. And you know, it's been a
• 14:30
  Speaker 2: long time, you know that we've been following and learning
• 14:33
  Speaker 2: and knowing a little bit about Mormonism here and there,
• 14:36
  Speaker 2: and this and that and the other thing, and we
• 14:38
  Speaker 2: know people and this this docu series really I felt
• 14:42
  Speaker 2: like Heather Gay the cognitive dissonance on some level with
• 14:46
  Speaker 2: some of it. It was. And I watched Keep Sweet,
• 14:48
  Speaker 2: Pray Obey, and I just thought that that was just
• 14:51
  Speaker 2: a little sect of cuckoo bananas, you know, a small group.
• 14:56
  Speaker 2: Well it was big, but like that that happened, and
• 14:58
  Speaker 2: you know, that was like a dateline special, you know
• 15:00
  Speaker 2: what I mean. I didn't realize, you know, the pervasiveness
• 15:05
  Speaker 2: of it all. And that's what was a huge eye
• 15:07
  Speaker 2: opener to me. But please carry on.
• 15:09
  Speaker 1: No, that's a great word, is pervasive, Because I wanted
• 15:14
  Speaker 1: to think, is that an entire religion can't be based
• 15:17
  Speaker 1: on these terrible tenants a whole group of religious people
• 15:24
  Speaker 1: can't turn a blind eye to And it's like, oh no,
• 15:27
  Speaker 1: they can, and they do, they can, they do, they
• 15:30
  Speaker 1: have and they.
• 15:30
  Speaker 2: Are so And to be fair, a lot of these
• 15:33
  Speaker 2: tenants are in other religions as well. Oh forever, yeah,
• 15:37
  Speaker 2: but this seems but this is different, like this is
• 15:40
  Speaker 2: next level, right, Yes.
• 15:43
  Speaker 1: It's next level and so and let's just dive into that.
• 15:46
  Speaker 1: So the episode one, the first person that Heather interviewed.
• 15:50
  Speaker 1: His name is David Matheson, and he was a pioneer
• 15:54
  Speaker 1: of gay conversion therapy movement for the church. And so
• 15:59
  Speaker 1: the long and short of it is that David Matheson
• 16:02
  Speaker 1: became a psychotherapist. So he was born into Mormonism right
• 16:06
  Speaker 1: like so many people are. And what Mormonism teaches is
• 16:10
  Speaker 1: that if you are gay, you put your entire lineage
• 16:15
  Speaker 1: in danger and you will not be able to be
• 16:20
  Speaker 1: with your family forever. It just by simply being gay.
• 16:25
  Speaker 1: That's what the doctrine is.
• 16:27
  Speaker 2: The lineage, the lineage. Oh my god, we'll talk about
• 16:29
  Speaker 2: a burden.
• 16:30
  Speaker 1: Oh my god. And here okay, and here's the thing.
• 16:33
  Speaker 1: So the first example I'm gonna give, it's like, imagine,
• 16:36
  Speaker 1: so this is like because sexual orientation is not a choice.
• 16:40
  Speaker 1: David Matheson pioneered this program called Evergreen, which was a
• 16:46
  Speaker 1: conversion therapy program for men who what they called it
• 16:50
  Speaker 1: was suffering same sex attraction, which I felt so much
• 16:55
  Speaker 1: rage I cannot even tell you. By the time that
• 16:58
  Speaker 1: I got all my notes to get I had seven pages,
• 17:01
  Speaker 1: and I just thought I was like casually taking notes.
• 17:04
  Speaker 1: I didn't think I was doing a deep dive and
• 17:06
  Speaker 1: I was like so full of rage that I was
• 17:08
  Speaker 1: just like just like furiously typing. Because sexual orientation is
• 17:13
  Speaker 1: not a choice. We are, as Lady Gaga would say,
• 17:16
  Speaker 1: born this way. You know who will spoil a lineage?
• 17:20
  Speaker 1: People who abuse children and try to teach people that
• 17:24
  Speaker 1: they're not worthy because of the color of their skin
• 17:27
  Speaker 1: or their sexual orientation. Those are people to me who
• 17:29
  Speaker 1: really spoil an age. But I digress exactly. So what
• 17:34
  Speaker 1: happened with David Matheson is he was a man who
• 17:37
  Speaker 1: quote unquote suffered from same sex attraction. And I'm using
• 17:41
  Speaker 1: their language temporarily to prove a point, and in reality,
• 17:46
  Speaker 1: he was struggling to come to terms with his sexual orientation.
• 17:51
  Speaker 1: And he was also like one thing he said or
• 17:55
  Speaker 1: someone said that really stuck in my brain was, if
• 17:59
  Speaker 1: you're you're gay, you have two choices, conversion therapy or
• 18:04
  Speaker 1: eternal damnation. Well, Amy, let me ask which one are
• 18:07
  Speaker 1: you going to choose?
• 18:09
  Speaker 2: Which one are eternal damnation sounds like more fun.
• 18:12
  Speaker 1: I mean to me, it does, but you know, for
• 18:14
  Speaker 1: people like the one thing I can tell you psychologically
• 18:18
  Speaker 1: speaking is that all humans need love and connection, period
• 18:21
  Speaker 1: end of sentence.
• 18:23
  Speaker 2: That is aimen the truth.
• 18:25
  Speaker 1: What the church does is it sets people up for
• 18:27
  Speaker 1: failure by saying you have to be perfect, you can't
• 18:30
  Speaker 1: be gay. The statistics on this are not perfect, but
• 18:33
  Speaker 1: about ten percent of adults identify as somewhere on the lesbian, gay,
• 18:38
  Speaker 1: or bisexual continuum. Is the word I was looking for.
• 18:42
  Speaker 1: And so you're saying to a group of I don't
• 18:45
  Speaker 1: know how many people are Mormons, that at least ten
• 18:49
  Speaker 1: percent of them, you are going to just be born
• 18:53
  Speaker 1: with this burden, but simply by being gay. And so
• 18:56
  Speaker 1: here's here's the analogy I want to use. It's like,
• 18:59
  Speaker 1: if you're born with blue eyes, well, you're great. You
• 19:02
  Speaker 1: get to go to the head of the class, you
• 19:04
  Speaker 1: get to be with your family. But if you were
• 19:06
  Speaker 1: born with brown eyes, well, guess what, you are a
• 19:11
  Speaker 1: danger to your entire lineage. You may not get to
• 19:13
  Speaker 1: be with them, and you can go to therapy to
• 19:16
  Speaker 1: try to change it. Do you want to go to
• 19:18
  Speaker 1: conversion therapy to try to get blue eyes? Well people
• 19:20
  Speaker 1: are gonna be like, yeah, I don't want to be
• 19:21
  Speaker 1: left in the cold. But this is how ridiculous it
• 19:24
  Speaker 1: is what we're talking about, right, Yeah, And so conversion therapy,
• 19:29
  Speaker 1: this man David was like watching his own videos of
• 19:34
  Speaker 1: trying to Oh my god, whoaf right? That was wild?
• 19:39
  Speaker 2: Great video, I mean perfect video, like a perfect little
• 19:43
  Speaker 2: promo video that you have no idea, like the blatant,
• 19:49
  Speaker 2: you know, evilness of it. Actually when you see the
• 19:53
  Speaker 2: untruths that are being spoken. And I can't imagine what
• 19:57
  Speaker 2: that must have been like for him to look back
• 19:59
  Speaker 2: on that and uh, to see it also see him younger,
• 20:02
  Speaker 2: and to see that whole thing, and what a transformation
• 20:05
  Speaker 2: he's had, and how he just he looks great, by
• 20:07
  Speaker 2: the way. Yeah, he's really buff. He's living his best life,
• 20:11
  Speaker 2: thank god.
• 20:12
  Speaker 1: And as an openly gaming I'm sure, Oh, I'm sure, yeah, David. Yeah,
• 20:19
  Speaker 1: And you know what I saw in David's eyes is
• 20:22
  Speaker 1: the pain of all the people that he heard. Because
• 20:26
  Speaker 1: so there's a psychological concept here which is called reaction formation. Okay,
• 20:32
  Speaker 1: So reaction formation when we have desires that are deemed
• 20:36
  Speaker 1: inappropriate by like our social structure or even ourselves, then
• 20:42
  Speaker 1: we do this thing where we go actively against that feeling.
• 20:48
  Speaker 1: So you know, when you see church leaders who are
• 20:51
  Speaker 1: homophobic and then they're caught with their gay lever using
• 20:54
  Speaker 1: drugs in a hotel, this is reaction formation, which is,
• 20:58
  Speaker 1: you know, our brains and our Bible have a lot
• 21:00
  Speaker 1: of defenses to protect us from things psychologically speaking, and
• 21:04
  Speaker 1: so that's one of them where David and all the
• 21:07
  Speaker 1: other people who were gay, but we're told, well, you're
• 21:10
  Speaker 1: a real problem. Will you have to reconcile that in
• 21:14
  Speaker 1: your brain? And so what they do is they say, well,
• 21:16
  Speaker 1: this is undesirable. So I'm gonna take this. I'm gonna
• 21:19
  Speaker 1: flip it, and I'm going to be the head of
• 21:21
  Speaker 1: conversion therapy because that's what I want for myself. Like,
• 21:25
  Speaker 1: the thing that David and some of these other folks
• 21:28
  Speaker 1: really wanted is they didn't want the burden of being
• 21:31
  Speaker 1: gay because it was presented to them as a burden.
• 21:34
  Speaker 1: It wasn't presented as like you're just a person that's
• 21:38
  Speaker 1: that's okay, you know, straight gay, it's all on the
• 21:42
  Speaker 1: menu and it's all okay. No, this is this is
• 21:45
  Speaker 1: when it's pathologized and you're basically tell you saying your
• 21:49
  Speaker 1: eternal soul and the souls of your family are on
• 21:53
  Speaker 1: the line. I mean that's psychologically just gonna fuck people
• 21:55
  Speaker 1: right up.
• 21:56
  Speaker 2: Yeah, Yeah, I don't want to I don't want the
• 21:58
  Speaker 2: burden of that. I don't want to have to answer
• 22:00
  Speaker 2: for Jeremy, you know, my great great great great grandchild
• 22:05
  Speaker 2: who's kind of an asshole. Anyway, Like I don't want
• 22:07
  Speaker 2: to have the deal. I don't have to deal with that, right, Yeah, yeah.
• 22:10
  Speaker 1: That's too much. That's too much for one. Nobody should
• 22:14
  Speaker 1: be responsible for anyone else's behavior except for your own.
• 22:18
  Speaker 1: That's all right.
• 22:19
  Speaker 2: You don't want to be responsible for Jeremy, Okay, Right,
• 22:21
  Speaker 2: that's all I'm saying.
• 22:22
  Speaker 1: Because that's also set up for failure. If if God's like,
• 22:26
  Speaker 1: you're responsible for this little asshole, well that's a setup
• 22:29
  Speaker 1: for failure because I don't want to be okay, but
• 22:33
  Speaker 1: like it showed that, you know, David was the first
• 22:39
  Speaker 1: person here who legitimately thought the conversion therapy, which, by
• 22:43
  Speaker 1: the way, the American Psychological Association has a firm stance
• 22:50
  Speaker 1: that conversion therapy is not therapy. It is harmful, and
• 22:54
  Speaker 1: it is straight up abuse. It doesn't even deserve to
• 22:58
  Speaker 1: be called therapy. It is torture, abuse, nonsense, not based
• 23:04
  Speaker 1: in any sort of real science. And guess what, because
• 23:08
  Speaker 1: you can't there's no changing someone's sexual orientation. It is
• 23:12
  Speaker 1: what it is, just like my blue eyes are blue.
• 23:16
  Speaker 1: They're not going to change to be brown. And there's
• 23:20
  Speaker 1: no amount of quote unquote conversion therapy or whatever that
• 23:23
  Speaker 1: I'm going to go through to make that change. So
• 23:26
  Speaker 1: it's another setup for failure for people and just a
• 23:29
  Speaker 1: harmful abuse of practice that I could talk about for
• 23:32
  Speaker 1: one hundred hours.
• 23:33
  Speaker 2: And the video showed clips of them, you know, and
• 23:36
  Speaker 2: their exercises, what they would have to do, and when
• 23:39
  Speaker 2: he was talking about the certain things, you know what
• 23:43
  Speaker 2: Heather was asking him, what about this? You know I
• 23:46
  Speaker 2: heard it was like the underground gay railroad where where
• 23:49
  Speaker 2: you'd go there and you'd either like for hookups, you know,
• 23:53
  Speaker 2: and that you could, but you couldn't hug people more
• 23:56
  Speaker 2: than ten minutes. But why would you even have people
• 23:59
  Speaker 2: hugging for ten minutes? Is the exposure there all this
• 24:01
  Speaker 2: bologney that they had them doing, which is literal it's torture.
• 24:06
  Speaker 2: It's it's emotional and it's physical torture. Like it's so
• 24:11
  Speaker 2: wrong to understand that David actually had a moment, you know,
• 24:17
  Speaker 2: when he finally was he got married and then like
• 24:19
  Speaker 2: him and his wife are supposed to be like the
• 24:21
  Speaker 2: poster childs of conversion therapy, right when he was finally like,
• 24:26
  Speaker 2: you know what I'm done. I can't live like this.
• 24:30
  Speaker 2: Bye bye is unbelievable. Like that, that switch finally flipped
• 24:36
  Speaker 2: off and he was like, we were not doing this anymore.
• 24:39
  Speaker 1: Right, And you know what he said and what everyone
• 24:41
  Speaker 1: else said too is pain made them. Pain made them
• 24:46
  Speaker 1: leave and made them because living inauthentically will literally drive
• 24:51
  Speaker 1: people insane. It will it will drive you absolutely insane,
• 24:56
  Speaker 1: it will make you develop mental health issues, physical health issues.
• 25:00
  Speaker 1: To live and not be your true authentic self is
• 25:03
  Speaker 1: absolute torture. And that is what the church is asking
• 25:07
  Speaker 1: people to do. And unnecessarily why just because a million
• 25:13
  Speaker 1: years ago, twelve old white guys decided this is how
• 25:16
  Speaker 1: it was going to be.
• 25:19
  Speaker 2: Meanwhile that there's still twelve old white guys that are
• 25:23
  Speaker 2: deciding things in the Mormon Church.
• 25:25
  Speaker 1: Oh you know, thank you for.
• 25:27
  Speaker 2: Bringing that up.
• 25:28
  Speaker 1: Amy. There is literally the LDS is worth one hundred
• 25:33
  Speaker 1: and forty billion dollars in the hands of twelve white men.
• 25:40
  Speaker 2: Yeah, literally, old.
• 25:42
  Speaker 1: Old white men with I'm sure a million old white
• 25:45
  Speaker 1: men to who will be happy to fill their shoes
• 25:48
  Speaker 1: after they die.
• 25:49
  Speaker 2: And who will be happy to have gay hookups by
• 25:52
  Speaker 2: the way, boom boom.
• 25:54
  Speaker 1: Because there's a lot of what's happening in this church
• 25:57
  Speaker 1: is that when you take a life, not allegedly, I'm
• 26:02
  Speaker 1: gonna okay, well, all right, maybe.
• 26:05
  Speaker 2: Because I don't know about the twelve Apostles specifically, those
• 26:08
  Speaker 2: ones are in there. Yeah, fair knows that they Yeah.
• 26:11
  Speaker 1: Fair enough, But I think that we are seeing that
• 26:16
  Speaker 1: this whole The one thing that Heather shared about Mormonism
• 26:20
  Speaker 1: which blew my absolute socks off the Joseph Smith. What
• 26:25
  Speaker 1: we didn't know that she shared was that this whole
• 26:29
  Speaker 1: religion started with Joseph Smith, who went into a village
• 26:35
  Speaker 1: and sexually assaulted a twelve year old girl and was
• 26:41
  Speaker 1: tarred and feathered by the men of the village and
• 26:44
  Speaker 1: murdered for abusing the girl, which, by the way, yes,
• 26:48
  Speaker 1: that's yes, that's what I'm gonna be careful about choosing
• 26:52
  Speaker 1: my words, but yes, that's that's yes.
• 26:55
  Speaker 2: And that's how they did it. That's how they did
• 26:57
  Speaker 2: They did they did it, they did it, and they
• 27:00
  Speaker 2: did that.
• 27:00
  Speaker 1: And guess what that's better than having a child tell
• 27:03
  Speaker 1: you that they were abused and be like it's fine. AnyWho.
• 27:07
  Speaker 1: So this whole religion was founded on someone who was
• 27:10
  Speaker 1: murdered for sexually abusing a child, and they just went
• 27:14
  Speaker 1: to a place where they could just do that more
• 27:17
  Speaker 1: freely without having troubles Zion, where men could marry child
• 27:22
  Speaker 1: brides and sexually abused children. It is so bonkers to
• 27:27
  Speaker 1: me that that is the start of this religion and
• 27:30
  Speaker 1: people are like, yeah, sign me up, but listen. I also,
• 27:33
  Speaker 1: I do have to say for people who are listening
• 27:36
  Speaker 1: to this, who are practicing, I understand that what we're
• 27:40
  Speaker 1: saying is really harsh, and I'm not trying to offend
• 27:43
  Speaker 1: anyone personally, and I'm not trying to break anyone apart
• 27:47
  Speaker 1: from everything it is that they've known. But I'm also
• 27:50
  Speaker 1: not going to not call these things out right because
• 27:54
  Speaker 1: everyone in Mormonism practices it differently. I have a friend
• 27:58
  Speaker 1: Kristin who she was on the show before she married
• 28:01
  Speaker 1: into Mormonism, and her experience is quite different. But the
• 28:05
  Speaker 1: fact is that the main base of this religion, so
• 28:10
  Speaker 1: much of it is based on ignoring perpetuating abuse. In
• 28:14
  Speaker 1: ignoring it, that that has to go and be stated.
• 28:18
  Speaker 2: The people who have been does have to be stated,
• 28:22
  Speaker 2: and the people that have been a part of this
• 28:23
  Speaker 2: for so long when it all began and it being
• 28:26
  Speaker 2: introduced to this as a child. And because your family,
• 28:29
  Speaker 2: they don't understand how it was actually founded. They don't
• 28:32
  Speaker 2: understand what we just said, because it has been the
• 28:37
  Speaker 2: picture of it has been painted completely differently. You know,
• 28:40
  Speaker 2: it is not the story that people are told when
• 28:44
  Speaker 2: they're in this. They're told a totally different story. And
• 28:47
  Speaker 2: so many religions are begun, and I should say calls
• 28:51
  Speaker 2: as well, begun and based on incredibly cruel practices that
• 28:56
  Speaker 2: have now evolved over the years to be somewhat of
• 29:00
  Speaker 2: a you know, a grocery store of you know, you
• 29:04
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• 38:42
  Speaker 1: Right, and to you that point, Ben, who we're going
• 38:45
  Speaker 1: to talk about next, he said that Mormonism is like
• 38:49
  Speaker 1: a stuffed plushy with a knife in it.
• 38:51
  Speaker 2: Oh and I don't remember him saying that, Oh, that's.
• 38:55
  Speaker 1: It stuck out in my brain because I was like
• 38:57
  Speaker 1: and Heather and Ben I think talked about Mormonism being
• 39:00
  Speaker 1: the kindest, cruelest culture and then he compared it to
• 39:04
  Speaker 1: like a beautiful, cute stuffed animal with a knife that
• 39:07
  Speaker 1: when you hold it it stabs you. And it's like,
• 39:10
  Speaker 1: we also, I think, have to listen to the people,
• 39:13
  Speaker 1: to the victims who have not been heard and have
• 39:16
  Speaker 1: to you know, as someone who's not in that realm,
• 39:20
  Speaker 1: those are the people we have to listen to.
• 39:24
  Speaker 2: Melissa, when before we talk about Ben, I want to
• 39:27
  Speaker 2: ask you a quick question. I know that hopefully it
• 39:31
  Speaker 2: can be somewhat concise, because I don't want to start
• 39:34
  Speaker 2: you going down a different area. Do you think that Mormonism,
• 39:38
  Speaker 2: above all cults or religions, has the most abuse because
• 39:45
  Speaker 2: it so.
• 39:47
  Speaker 1: I grew up Catholic, and I would say that the
• 39:50
  Speaker 1: Catholic Church is the only other cult slash organized religion
• 39:56
  Speaker 1: that had as much sexual abuse as Mormonism.
• 39:59
  Speaker 2: Now would you say that that? Okay, So in terms
• 40:03
  Speaker 2: of modern day like right now, do you think that
• 40:07
  Speaker 2: the two are at the same level with the same
• 40:12
  Speaker 2: amount of abuse, like Catholic Church is still doing that,
• 40:15
  Speaker 2: or do you think they've gotten that kind of somewhat
• 40:17
  Speaker 2: under the ros amy they have nothing and Mormonism is
• 40:20
  Speaker 2: still like high. So you still think that they're pretty
• 40:23
  Speaker 2: pretty close in terms of statistically the amount of abuse.
• 40:27
  Speaker 1: I do, and I'm going to tell you why. These
• 40:28
  Speaker 1: are both simple systems that don't want change. These are
• 40:34
  Speaker 1: still systems where to this day. I know for a
• 40:38
  Speaker 1: fact I live in a very Catholic area where priests
• 40:42
  Speaker 1: are constantly moved, no warning, no explanation. They're moved from
• 40:47
  Speaker 1: parish to perish, to perish until something happens, and then
• 40:52
  Speaker 1: they're moved again. That is what I know of the
• 40:54
  Speaker 1: Catholic Church and with the Mormon Church. I know for
• 40:58
  Speaker 1: a fact, based on this docuseries, that these abuses are
• 41:04
  Speaker 1: still happening, and there is there's nothing being done to
• 41:08
  Speaker 1: change the structure that leads to this happening. I don't
• 41:15
  Speaker 1: see that change. You have to acknowledge the systemic issue
• 41:21
  Speaker 1: and desire to change it. And the Catholic Church and
• 41:25
  Speaker 1: LDS Church personally, I don't see I see those systems
• 41:30
  Speaker 1: just saying hush hush, now, loud ones, hush hush, and
• 41:35
  Speaker 1: let's just go about our business that we've done over
• 41:37
  Speaker 1: and over and over and over and continue to traumatize people.
• 41:41
  Speaker 1: That's what I think.
• 41:42
  Speaker 2: I think that the terms of the Catholic Church, and
• 41:46
  Speaker 2: I think that they've been exposed sooner. I think the
• 41:51
  Speaker 2: Catholic Church has finally been exposed as of like many
• 41:55
  Speaker 2: many years ago, and now it's the Mormon Church's time.
• 42:00
  Speaker 2: I feel like this is happening now and it's now
• 42:02
  Speaker 2: all being exposed. Maybe people have said it before, but
• 42:05
  Speaker 2: this documentary series is a perfect example of why it
• 42:10
  Speaker 2: seems like it's happening currently is because these people who
• 42:13
  Speaker 2: are coming out going I've been wanting to talk about this.
• 42:16
  Speaker 2: I didn't have the platform to talk about this. No one.
• 42:19
  Speaker 2: The stories aren't enough, Like it's not getting enough attention
• 42:24
  Speaker 2: that this is happening. And I think so many people
• 42:27
  Speaker 2: don't really care because they're like, well, Mormonism, that's a cult,
• 42:30
  Speaker 2: not going to deal with that. That's their problem, but
• 42:33
  Speaker 2: there are people that are suffering and to expose this,
• 42:37
  Speaker 2: even if it's just to the Mormon culture. Heather Gay
• 42:40
  Speaker 2: who has an amazing line which is like, why me,
• 42:44
  Speaker 2: I'm just a stupid I'm an idiot housewife, you know.
• 42:47
  Speaker 2: But she's like, I now am in this situation where
• 42:50
  Speaker 2: I have to like take this on and at least
• 42:52
  Speaker 2: use my platform to help people, which is incredibly heroic
• 42:56
  Speaker 2: in my opinion, I to use that word.
• 42:58
  Speaker 1: I fully agree that Heather. Every single person who participated
• 43:03
  Speaker 1: in this documentary, from Heather to producers, to victims sharing
• 43:07
  Speaker 1: their story, our heroes and rock stars, absolutely because the
• 43:11
  Speaker 1: problem is is that look at the whole P didty
• 43:14
  Speaker 1: thing right. When you have a voice of a victim,
• 43:18
  Speaker 1: unfortunately that's not enough, which is disgusting, and that's the
• 43:22
  Speaker 1: culture of America. I have a lot of people that
• 43:24
  Speaker 1: listen to this podcast who are probably banging their faces
• 43:27
  Speaker 1: on a wall right now, from Ireland, from England, from Australia,
• 43:31
  Speaker 1: who they're like, I don't understand the way that the
• 43:34
  Speaker 1: US works. I don't get it is that these things
• 43:37
  Speaker 1: are allowed to happen repeatedly, and in the case of
• 43:40
  Speaker 1: p Diddy for example. We see how many women that
• 43:44
  Speaker 1: they come forward, and it's like even in droves, their
• 43:47
  Speaker 1: voices aren't enough, and we have to ask ourselves why
• 43:51
  Speaker 1: is that? Because the system, the patriarchal system, whether it's
• 43:55
  Speaker 1: the justice system or the church, like churches are just
• 43:59
  Speaker 1: allowed to get away with whatever they want, their tax
• 44:03
  Speaker 1: exempt little islands that they can just I mean, it's wild.
• 44:09
  Speaker 1: Speaking of that, Let's go into Ben because what was
• 44:11
  Speaker 1: so interesting with Ben is that I could see his
• 44:16
  Speaker 1: pain like he was one person. When I looked in
• 44:19
  Speaker 1: his eyes, I was like, this is a person who
• 44:22
  Speaker 1: has been broken from these experiences. Ben talked about he
• 44:27
  Speaker 1: started being sexually abused at church, at church, not just
• 44:32
  Speaker 1: by one church official, by multiple church officials, sometimes at
• 44:38
  Speaker 1: the same time, from ages of four four years old
• 44:43
  Speaker 1: to nine, and sometimes he would be taken out of
• 44:46
  Speaker 1: Sunday school to be molested. Sometimes it would be while
• 44:50
  Speaker 1: he was playing and he would be taken to be molested.
• 44:54
  Speaker 1: And he tells the story about he was playing and
• 44:58
  Speaker 1: he was taken with a little girl and he was
• 45:02
  Speaker 1: subjected to this kind of white robe ceremony, which some
• 45:06
  Speaker 1: of it was recorded. There were these little bits of
• 45:10
  Speaker 1: recordings you didn't see anyone's face, but everyone was in
• 45:14
  Speaker 1: these like all white garb, and what they did, all
• 45:18
  Speaker 1: of these church officials, this old, gross pedophile married a
• 45:23
  Speaker 1: twelve year old girl and proceeded to rape her in
• 45:27
  Speaker 1: front of everybody who was there, including Ben. And these
• 45:32
  Speaker 1: are the kind of horror stories that I want to
• 45:35
  Speaker 1: emphasize to people what a courageous, resilient, beautiful human Ben
• 45:41
  Speaker 1: is to be able to experience this and continual life
• 45:49
  Speaker 1: and find some sort of happiness despite the fact that
• 45:53
  Speaker 1: all of this was thrust upon him. And the thing
• 45:56
  Speaker 1: with Ben is as well is not only was this
• 45:59
  Speaker 1: happening to him.
• 46:00
  Speaker 2: But he was also gay.
• 46:02
  Speaker 1: So he was gay and being sexually abused, and then
• 46:08
  Speaker 1: was being blamed for the sexual abuse. And what is
• 46:13
  Speaker 1: so wacky to me is Ben told the bishop and
• 46:18
  Speaker 1: then there's like the structure within the church. His dad
• 46:21
  Speaker 1: was one of those people. Okay, he tells these people
• 46:26
  Speaker 1: what's happening, and the bishops say, I don't know, I
• 46:30
  Speaker 1: think the problem is really that you're gay, so you
• 46:33
  Speaker 1: should just go to conversion therapy, and we're not really
• 46:35
  Speaker 1: going to do anything about this person.
• 46:38
  Speaker 2: Yeah, oh, and that that person denied it that he
• 46:41
  Speaker 2: must have me confused with someone else.
• 46:43
  Speaker 1: Oh, and everyone was just like, oh okay. And this
• 46:47
  Speaker 1: is why, and this is what makes me feel rage
• 46:50
  Speaker 1: that could boil my skin is that one person says
• 46:56
  Speaker 1: this happened to me, and one person says, no, it didn't,
• 47:00
  Speaker 1: and that person is always believed.
• 47:03
  Speaker 2: Right, why is that named? He named him in this documentary.
• 47:07
  Speaker 1: And guess who else is going to name this bish?
• 47:10
  Speaker 1: Right here? So you bish is gonna name the person
• 47:14
  Speaker 1: Ben named his abuser. And his name is Jesus Jess Hurtado.
• 47:19
  Speaker 1: It's you are ta do o. And I want that
• 47:23
  Speaker 1: name to be spelled. I want you to memie me
• 47:26
  Speaker 1: hear it from my lips, because Jesus Jess Hurtado is
• 47:32
  Speaker 1: a pedophile that was allowed to just continue and continue
• 47:36
  Speaker 1: and continue. And even after Ben told what happened with Jess,
• 47:43
  Speaker 1: initially nothing happened. But in twenty seventeen, a woman named Ginger,
• 47:47
  Speaker 1: another rock star, took Jess on in a lawsuit that
• 47:52
  Speaker 1: was settled with the church, who admitted no wrongdoing because
• 47:55
  Speaker 1: that's the only thing the church cares about. And then
• 47:59
  Speaker 1: what happened was Jess Hurtado was excommunicated in twenty nineteen.
• 48:03
  Speaker 1: But guess what, to this day, he is still actively
• 48:07
  Speaker 1: attending church in his ward to this day. Because what
• 48:12
  Speaker 1: the church does is they say, well, the church wants
• 48:16
  Speaker 1: to discredit victims to protect the church, and they want
• 48:20
  Speaker 1: problematic people off their books. So they excommunicated Jess, which
• 48:25
  Speaker 1: literally meant nothing because the entire church had no idea
• 48:30
  Speaker 1: that they were friends with a pedophile. They had no
• 48:33
  Speaker 1: idea because the church covered it up. And that is
• 48:36
  Speaker 1: just absolutely heinous and disgusting.
• 48:38
  Speaker 2: Do you think that so they covered it up. So
• 48:41
  Speaker 2: now him being back at the church and all this stuff,
• 48:44
  Speaker 2: the church members have no idea what a danger he is? Correct?
• 48:48
  Speaker 1: Correct, he could be a coach, he could be babysitting.
• 48:52
  Speaker 1: What the church doesn't want to do is protect victims
• 48:55
  Speaker 1: or protect children. It's the church over children period.
• 49:00
  Speaker 2: Yes. I found that to be an incredibly powerful statement
• 49:03
  Speaker 2: that Heather said, is that as much as that they
• 49:07
  Speaker 2: the people love the children, they love the church more
• 49:10
  Speaker 2: you God, are willing to do whatever it takes to
• 49:12
  Speaker 2: protect it.
• 49:13
  Speaker 1: Yep.
• 49:13
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, Ben exposed it, exposed it all. I can't
• 49:18
  Speaker 2: believe they didn't call the police.
• 49:20
  Speaker 1: No one called the police, No one had anything to
• 49:23
  Speaker 1: say about it.
• 49:24
  Speaker 2: Oh one ever calls the police because it's their own thing.
• 49:26
  Speaker 2: They rule their own government within these these walls of evil. Yeah,
• 49:33
  Speaker 2: and so they don't go, they don't go outside of it,
• 49:36
  Speaker 2: and none of the members do.
• 49:38
  Speaker 1: That's right. And Heather said, because before we move on
• 49:42
  Speaker 1: to the last, because the last story was particularly egregious
• 49:46
  Speaker 1: and it really showed the failings of the church to
• 49:49
  Speaker 1: protect children. But the one thing Heather said that really
• 49:51
  Speaker 1: stuck out in my brain is Heather said, and I quote,
• 49:55
  Speaker 1: in this church, there are ordinary men given great power,
• 50:00
  Speaker 1: zero qualifications. And she said, why is that? And I
• 50:04
  Speaker 1: can tell you why that is. You know why that is?
• 50:07
  Speaker 1: That is so that they could be easily manipulated by
• 50:12
  Speaker 1: the church into doing what the church wants. Because if
• 50:16
  Speaker 1: you have someone like me who's a bishop who right,
• 50:21
  Speaker 1: that whole church is going to be burnt to the ground.
• 50:23
  Speaker 1: They're not picking me to be a bishop.
• 50:25
  Speaker 2: They don't want anyone who has training or understands. They
• 50:28
  Speaker 2: just they know that giving regular people power makes them
• 50:32
  Speaker 2: feel good, yep. And so they use that against them yep,
• 50:36
  Speaker 2: by giving them power and then telling them what to do.
• 50:40
  Speaker 2: And they're used as chess pieces, as pawns.
• 50:43
  Speaker 1: Yes, it's actually psychologically diabolical what the church sets up
• 50:50
  Speaker 1: so that people are psychologically restrained. But the church can
• 50:55
  Speaker 1: then ultimately say, well, we didn't do that. Well the
• 50:59
  Speaker 1: mother knew, so okay, So let's go on to the
• 51:02
  Speaker 1: next story. Yeah, which is okay. So Lizzie, the sisters,
• 51:07
  Speaker 1: Lizzie and Jenny, who the long and the short of
• 51:09
  Speaker 1: it is, they grew up Mormon, and Lizzie's earliest memory
• 51:13
  Speaker 1: was sexual abuse by her father. So her father persistently sexually, emotionally, mentally,
• 51:21
  Speaker 1: physically abused her from the earliest she can remember, which
• 51:25
  Speaker 1: is he probably was doing it since she was a
• 51:26
  Speaker 1: baby until she was eighteen years old, and the mother
• 51:32
  Speaker 1: found out two different times went to the church. Both
• 51:37
  Speaker 1: times the bishop told the mom to be a better wife,
• 51:42
  Speaker 1: a better member, and be more available available to this
• 51:47
  Speaker 1: pedophilic dad and blamed the daughter for quote unquote tempting him.
• 51:55
  Speaker 1: Do we understand if you're not enraged by this, I
• 51:59
  Speaker 1: can't help you, because the insanity of this is that
• 52:05
  Speaker 1: these poor girls had their life was completely destroyed by
• 52:10
  Speaker 1: their own father. There are no less than eighteen church
• 52:16
  Speaker 1: men who knew about this, and not one time was
• 52:19
  Speaker 1: it ever called to police. And now the other part
• 52:23
  Speaker 1: of this that blows my freaking mind is that LDS
• 52:27
  Speaker 1: has a family services counseling center.
• 52:30
  Speaker 2: What a joke, because the hotline to nowhere.
• 52:34
  Speaker 1: No, that was different. The hotline was different. But I'm
• 52:38
  Speaker 1: glad you brought that up. So's that's the second thing.
• 52:41
  Speaker 1: The LDS Family services. This dad who was molesting his
• 52:45
  Speaker 1: kids went and they said he started to tell them
• 52:48
  Speaker 1: what was going on, and they said, stop, don't say anything,
• 52:52
  Speaker 1: because we are mandated reporters. Because therapists are always going
• 52:57
  Speaker 1: to be mandated reporters. So what they did is they
• 53:00
  Speaker 1: stopped that man from confessing, said we can't help you,
• 53:04
  Speaker 1: and sent him home to his children who he was abusing.
• 53:08
  Speaker 1: I'm sorry, I'm so far it.
• 53:09
  Speaker 2: Up, Amy.
• 53:10
  Speaker 1: It just makes me so freaking angry.
• 53:13
  Speaker 2: It should, it should. And now I have a specific
• 53:16
  Speaker 2: question about that because the church sent them to these
• 53:20
  Speaker 2: It was a counseling center, was an LDS counseling center, right,
• 53:23
  Speaker 2: but it wasn't within that church. So that was like
• 53:28
  Speaker 2: their little loophole to make it look like it was
• 53:32
  Speaker 2: somewhat a little bit more legitimate.
• 53:34
  Speaker 1: But it so.
• 53:36
  Speaker 2: But these LDS counselors. Did they have education, did they
• 53:40
  Speaker 2: have degrees? Did they have a license, that's my question
• 53:43
  Speaker 2: for you don't.
• 53:44
  Speaker 1: Know, but I would guess yes, because the LDS church,
• 53:49
  Speaker 1: they would use their church exemption to get around any
• 53:53
  Speaker 1: rules and regulations. Right, So if someone comes to a
• 53:56
  Speaker 1: bishop and says my child is being sexually abused, the
• 54:00
  Speaker 1: is like, do twelve hail Marys or whatever the hell
• 54:02
  Speaker 1: that's Catholicism. I'm just being snarky, but there's no, there's no.
• 54:08
  Speaker 1: They're not mandated reporters, which they should be. Any adult
• 54:11
  Speaker 1: that works with a child, school personnel, cafeteria people at schools,
• 54:15
  Speaker 1: they're all mandated reporters, but because they're with the church,
• 54:18
  Speaker 1: they are not. Now this counseling service, I'm assuming because
• 54:22
  Speaker 1: they stop the guy and said we are mandated reporters,
• 54:25
  Speaker 1: that they were real counselors.
• 54:28
  Speaker 2: Yeah, which, okay, shoot bad morals and not good Oh.
• 54:33
  Speaker 1: Yes, terry literal pieces of crap. Who I hope they
• 54:37
  Speaker 1: have diaryha forever. I'm not kidding because that's when I
• 54:40
  Speaker 1: really dislike people. That's what I feel comfortable wishing on them. Yeah,
• 54:45
  Speaker 1: I don't wish death. I'm like I hope you have
• 54:46
  Speaker 1: diarya forever, because at least that way you can't go
• 54:49
  Speaker 1: out and pretend to treat people you psycho. And then
• 54:57
  Speaker 1: we find out that there is a hot line specifically
• 55:02
  Speaker 1: for reporting child abuse, but do you know what the
• 55:06
  Speaker 1: hotline is really, it's a hotline that goes straight to
• 55:11
  Speaker 1: LDS lawyers. Police are never called, never informed, and the
• 55:18
  Speaker 1: lawyers basically tell the families and the bishops to squash
• 55:23
  Speaker 1: this because we don't want the church to look bad.
• 55:27
  Speaker 1: That it's just it's sickening, it's psychoeda. It's so the
• 55:31
  Speaker 1: amount of beautiful, beautiful children who have been failed over
• 55:37
  Speaker 1: and over and over by people in this church and
• 55:40
  Speaker 1: the adults in their lives. It's just for any of
• 55:43
  Speaker 1: them to have found a beautiful life. They are heroes
• 55:46
  Speaker 1: and their rock stars. To me.
• 55:48
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it's such a huge burden to bear, even just
• 55:52
  Speaker 2: listening and listening and taking this in. And when the
• 55:55
  Speaker 2: mom went and like left the home basic and just
• 56:01
  Speaker 2: abandon her children to go to Ireland for like a
• 56:04
  Speaker 2: year to try to find herself through all this, then
• 56:08
  Speaker 2: came back and decided, Okay, I'm taking my kids away
• 56:11
  Speaker 2: from this situation. The daughter wanted to, you know, she
• 56:16
  Speaker 2: told the police. She finally told the police about what happened,
• 56:19
  Speaker 2: San Diego Police. She then recorded a conversation with her
• 56:25
  Speaker 2: dad because she needed to get a confession from him. Yep,
• 56:28
  Speaker 2: and he they report. She reported it in August and
• 56:32
  Speaker 2: he was arrested in December, and he was sentenced to
• 56:34
  Speaker 2: thirty two years but released after fifteen, but.
• 56:38
  Speaker 1: Then reoffended, reoffended because you know why back in prison
• 56:43
  Speaker 1: pedophilia cannot be treated. There is I'm going to tell you,
• 56:47
  Speaker 1: psychologically speaking, is that pedophilia. There is no treatment for it,
• 56:52
  Speaker 1: no real treatment other than chemical castration.
• 56:54
  Speaker 2: And why don't they do that? I'm sorry, Well, it's like,
• 56:57
  Speaker 2: you know, I don't think.
• 56:58
  Speaker 1: Yeah, that's a great quest. You know when you see
• 57:01
  Speaker 1: people driving that have like seventy five d uys and
• 57:03
  Speaker 1: you're like, how are you still driving? Well, it's a
• 57:07
  Speaker 1: very broken system. There are people who are who offend
• 57:10
  Speaker 1: and reoffend. And so fortunately though that piece of trash
• 57:16
  Speaker 1: is back in jail because he reoffended. Because pedophiles will reoffend.
• 57:20
  Speaker 1: That's kind of their thing, right, They're not they're not.
• 57:24
  Speaker 1: They don't want to change, they don't want to do
• 57:26
  Speaker 1: things different, and then when you have a system that
• 57:29
  Speaker 1: is completely not giving them any consequences. But I you
• 57:34
  Speaker 1: know what Lizzie said again, Lizzie, Oh, absolute freaking rock star.
• 57:38
  Speaker 1: Lizzy was like, well, for like eighteen years the church
• 57:43
  Speaker 1: knew and did nothing, and then she reported it to
• 57:45
  Speaker 1: police and with six months he was in jail and
• 57:48
  Speaker 1: it was So what is really important for us to
• 57:51
  Speaker 1: mention right now is that there are people who care,
• 57:56
  Speaker 1: who will intervene, who will do right by victim. It's
• 58:00
  Speaker 1: just what's unfortunate is sometimes victims of religious trauma, sexual abuse,
• 58:06
  Speaker 1: they'll have to use their voice one hundred and fifty
• 58:10
  Speaker 1: times until the one hundred and fifty first time that
• 58:13
  Speaker 1: somebody says, wait a second, we got to work on this.
• 58:17
  Speaker 1: But what happens is because it's psychologically so you're revictimized, right,
• 58:22
  Speaker 1: So if you're victimized and then you tell someone and
• 58:25
  Speaker 1: no one does anything, you're revictimized over and over and
• 58:29
  Speaker 1: over again.
• 58:31
  Speaker 2: And it's like, which is why Ben didn't want to say, Like,
• 58:34
  Speaker 2: he didn't want to say anything, and now he's finally
• 58:35
  Speaker 2: saying something.
• 58:36
  Speaker 1: Right. Ben's reaction to Heather simply for listening. He was
• 58:41
  Speaker 1: just in tear. He called her to thank her just
• 58:43
  Speaker 1: for listening. And what I wanted to say about that
• 58:46
  Speaker 1: is that as a trauma survivor of complex trauma, the
• 58:51
  Speaker 1: one thing that I recognize is that all Heather did
• 58:54
  Speaker 1: was listen and give them a platform. But she also
• 58:56
  Speaker 1: apologized to Ben because she, because of her own biases
• 59:01
  Speaker 1: and issues with Mormonism, kind of stepped away from him
• 59:05
  Speaker 1: when he was trying to tell his story. And so
• 59:09
  Speaker 1: what I appreciated is that how they owned her misstep.
• 59:12
  Speaker 1: She said, I was wrong, and I apologize for not
• 59:15
  Speaker 1: hearing you sooner. The look on his face it was childlike.
• 59:19
  Speaker 1: It was a childlike look of somebody hears me and
• 59:22
  Speaker 1: believes me. And that's it's beautiful. But it's also sad
• 59:27
  Speaker 1: that that's what all it takes to make someone feel whole,
• 59:31
  Speaker 1: because to me, that's the base, the basic what humans
• 59:35
  Speaker 1: should get. But we don't. We don't get that.
• 59:37
  Speaker 2: No, no, but and and it also goes to show
• 59:41
  Speaker 2: sometimes it's not too late.
• 59:45
  Speaker 1: I would say, it's never too late. And really I
• 59:48
  Speaker 1: would say it's never too late. And here's the thing.
• 59:50
  Speaker 1: I'm not going to be super specific, but.
• 59:52
  Speaker 2: For me, well, I say sometimes No, I'm kidding. No,
• 59:56
  Speaker 2: I agree. I agree with whatever you say.
• 59:58
  Speaker 1: Okay, I think that even if I had five minutes
• 1:00:01
  Speaker 1: left to live, I'm going to speak my truth and
• 1:00:04
  Speaker 1: live my authentic life because doing the opposite almost killed me.
• 1:00:10
  Speaker 1: I almost died in silence. I will speak for myself.
• 1:00:14
  Speaker 1: I almost died in silence and using my voice. And unfortunately,
• 1:00:18
  Speaker 1: sometimes you use your voice and it umpacts other people
• 1:00:20
  Speaker 1: because it's not just your story. But I argue it
• 1:00:24
  Speaker 1: is never ever too late. If you're listening to this
• 1:00:27
  Speaker 1: and you want to shout it from the rooftops, DM me,
• 1:00:31
  Speaker 1: do I want to hear it? We want to hear
• 1:00:33
  Speaker 1: it because everyone's story is important and valuable. And just
• 1:00:37
  Speaker 1: because of the color of your skin, the color of
• 1:00:40
  Speaker 1: your eyes, your sexual orientation, you are a valuable, worthwhile,
• 1:00:45
  Speaker 1: beautiful human being. And if other people can't see that
• 1:00:49
  Speaker 1: or don't feel that, then that is not the right
• 1:00:50
  Speaker 1: room for us to be in.
• 1:00:52
  Speaker 2: It just doesn't preach preach.
• 1:00:55
  Speaker 1: So I know I've been very intense this.
• 1:00:57
  Speaker 2: Episode, but good I just should should. This warrants fury,
• 1:01:02
  Speaker 2: and I sound like Heather. This warrants fury and landmark
• 1:01:08
  Speaker 2: for histrionics. Unlike we've ever seen before. I'm trying to
• 1:01:14
  Speaker 2: bring it. I'm trying to infuse a little comedy at
• 1:01:16
  Speaker 2: the end, only because is we need a little bit
• 1:01:18
  Speaker 2: of a release. We do, or maybe we don't know,
• 1:01:21
  Speaker 2: or maybe we don't well.
• 1:01:23
  Speaker 1: But what I want to say about Heather Gay is
• 1:01:26
  Speaker 1: that for her to be such an advocate and an ally,
• 1:01:31
  Speaker 1: to have the courage to be in this cult, to
• 1:01:35
  Speaker 1: come outside of it, to have critical thinking skills, to
• 1:01:38
  Speaker 1: hear victims, to listen to them, and to be able
• 1:01:41
  Speaker 1: to break through that cognitive dissonance to tell the world
• 1:01:45
  Speaker 1: what's going on. Kudos to Heather, I mean kudos, kudos.
• 1:01:50
  Speaker 2: And also what a breakneck speed this happened, and something
• 1:01:54
  Speaker 2: that she did not expect. She wrote the book Bad Mormon,
• 1:01:58
  Speaker 2: that was not that long ago. She upon doing this
• 1:02:01
  Speaker 2: tour is when she realized, holy shit, I mean, this
• 1:02:06
  Speaker 2: is beyond the scope of what I ever imagine it
• 1:02:10
  Speaker 2: ever was going to be. She probably just thought, I
• 1:02:13
  Speaker 2: have a story to tell. This is my experience. Maybe
• 1:02:17
  Speaker 2: not even once did she think that people would be
• 1:02:18
  Speaker 2: coming out of the woodwork and looking at her like
• 1:02:21
  Speaker 2: you're the beacon of light here, please lead us, not
• 1:02:24
  Speaker 2: exactly what she was expecting. You know, she's probably just
• 1:02:27
  Speaker 2: trying to figure out what she's going to pack on
• 1:02:29
  Speaker 2: the next Housewives trip. Meanwhile, people are flooding her dms
• 1:02:33
  Speaker 2: and what is she supposed to do with all this?
• 1:02:35
  Speaker 2: And she went and did this, and she did she
• 1:02:37
  Speaker 2: had to do she did it. And then and furthermore,
• 1:02:40
  Speaker 2: you know when we talk about the Housewives and you
• 1:02:43
  Speaker 2: know how toxic it can be and all these things,
• 1:02:45
  Speaker 2: you know, these are the types of situations that yield
• 1:02:49
  Speaker 2: the fruit that it is meant to be, which is
• 1:02:51
  Speaker 2: that people's lives are changing. The Turnstile happened because of
• 1:02:55
  Speaker 2: the Real Housewives, and then and then the u AD
• 1:02:58
  Speaker 2: Salt Lake City and now you've got this drama and
• 1:03:00
  Speaker 2: it's such a successful show. And then Heather is so
• 1:03:03
  Speaker 2: successful that Jesus sides to write a book and then that,
• 1:03:06
  Speaker 2: you know, brings people to tell their truth and now
• 1:03:11
  Speaker 2: maybe some kind of change will happen. And when Heather said,
• 1:03:14
  Speaker 2: I just fear that I'm not enough, right, I've really
• 1:03:18
  Speaker 2: felt that. I felt that really hard. And I feel
• 1:03:21
  Speaker 2: like she's not enough.
• 1:03:23
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, And here's the thing, but it's not knock
• 1:03:27
  Speaker 1: to her. It just speaks to we need so many
• 1:03:31
  Speaker 1: voices to take down this giant system, who, by the way,
• 1:03:37
  Speaker 1: now has such wealth. It's almost impossible. It's like David
• 1:03:42
  Speaker 1: and Gali, it's absolutely right. So now we have this
• 1:03:46
  Speaker 1: church that has such wealth. Her voice isn't enough, but
• 1:03:49
  Speaker 1: you know what is her voice and our voice and
• 1:03:52
  Speaker 1: their voices and victims' voices, all of our voices together
• 1:03:57
  Speaker 1: are enough. And that's why this episode for me is
• 1:04:00
  Speaker 1: so important. One thing before we end, I just wanted
• 1:04:03
  Speaker 1: to speak to a little bit of how this kind
• 1:04:06
  Speaker 1: of happens with cults. Cult leaders are always narcissists who
• 1:04:12
  Speaker 1: want people to just be obedient, right, Like the name
• 1:04:16
  Speaker 1: of that show that you mentioned, like keep Sweet, pray
• 1:04:19
  Speaker 1: and obey. Obey is always a part of what a
• 1:04:25
  Speaker 1: cult leader will say. You have to obey, you have
• 1:04:29
  Speaker 1: to toe this company line. Behavior modification techniques are used,
• 1:04:35
  Speaker 1: such as rewards and punishments, controlling the environment. And what
• 1:04:39
  Speaker 1: the Mormon Church has done is your whole If your
• 1:04:42
  Speaker 1: whole life is Mormonism, well you're probably going to have
• 1:04:46
  Speaker 1: a really hard time getting out of it. If you're
• 1:04:48
  Speaker 1: born into it and you want to be with your
• 1:04:50
  Speaker 1: family eternally, well, they've already set you up psychologically for failure.
• 1:04:54
  Speaker 1: So what happens is people are born and then the
• 1:04:58
  Speaker 1: church tells them, well, you're your identity isn't acceptable, and
• 1:05:02
  Speaker 1: then they form a new identity that's reinforced and they
• 1:05:05
  Speaker 1: suppress their real identity, which is that's what leads to
• 1:05:09
  Speaker 1: the real issues depression, anxiety, feeling like you're going crazy,
• 1:05:12
  Speaker 1: because if you're trying to suppress who you are and
• 1:05:15
  Speaker 1: be someone you're not, that is a recipe for just
• 1:05:18
  Speaker 1: not good stuff. Another thing they do is called social conditioning,
• 1:05:21
  Speaker 1: So through society, family, media, culture institutions, it trains people
• 1:05:27
  Speaker 1: to adopt beliefs, behaviors, and values, shaping their thoughts and actions,
• 1:05:31
  Speaker 1: which teaches them, well, if you want to fit in,
• 1:05:34
  Speaker 1: here's how you have to do it. And what the
• 1:05:36
  Speaker 1: Mormon Church does is it controls people's access to information
• 1:05:40
  Speaker 1: and it creates a sense of dependency on the group.
• 1:05:45
  Speaker 1: So it starts this group think. And then what it
• 1:05:47
  Speaker 1: does is it starts in us versus them mentality. It's
• 1:05:51
  Speaker 1: psychological genius and that's not all. This is just a
• 1:05:54
  Speaker 1: little bit. And then what they do is isolation, So
• 1:05:57
  Speaker 1: they isolate people. They say, well, if you're not friends
• 1:06:00
  Speaker 1: with Mormons or what do they call that in scientology,
• 1:06:04
  Speaker 1: like people who don't parfer?
• 1:06:06
  Speaker 2: Oh right, a suppressive person.
• 1:06:09
  Speaker 1: Suppressive person. Yeah, that is that is cult isolation. That
• 1:06:15
  Speaker 1: is that is what that tactic is. Then there's group
• 1:06:17
  Speaker 1: dynamics in peer pressure. Cults often use group activities and
• 1:06:21
  Speaker 1: rituals to create the sense of unity. Like I watched this,
• 1:06:25
  Speaker 1: it was something on cults and it was like this
• 1:06:27
  Speaker 1: girl talked about how she went to hug the leader,
• 1:06:31
  Speaker 1: and he said, let's hug from the left because then
• 1:06:33
  Speaker 1: that way our hearts are touching. Okay, that's that's a
• 1:06:37
  Speaker 1: cult tactic of like getting in really deep, really soon,
• 1:06:41
  Speaker 1: like emotional, like ripping off emotional band aids and being like,
• 1:06:45
  Speaker 1: oh now.
• 1:06:45
  Speaker 2: We're Keith Ranier. Was that a Keith Rnier thing?
• 1:06:48
  Speaker 1: It might have been. There's so many of these terrible men,
• 1:06:51
  Speaker 1: I'm not sure. I can't even keep track. And then
• 1:06:54
  Speaker 1: once you're in it, then there is all this peer pressure.
• 1:06:57
  Speaker 1: But the last thing that I'll say is there's something
• 1:07:00
  Speaker 1: called like traumatic narcissism, which is it's not in the
• 1:07:04
  Speaker 1: DSM that this guy named Daniel Shaw came up with
• 1:07:07
  Speaker 1: this that basically says cults pick their victims based on like,
• 1:07:13
  Speaker 1: there are certain people who are going to be more
• 1:07:15
  Speaker 1: driven to these institutions. And so what happens is people
• 1:07:20
  Speaker 1: who have unresolved trauma and a fragmented sense of self
• 1:07:25
  Speaker 1: come into the church where they use these manipulation tactics
• 1:07:29
  Speaker 1: and it creates a powerful psychological grip on cult members.
• 1:07:33
  Speaker 1: And I want to be really clear to end this
• 1:07:35
  Speaker 1: is that breaking free from this psychological grip often requires
• 1:07:39
  Speaker 1: intensive therapy support to heal the wounds and rebuilding a
• 1:07:43
  Speaker 1: healthy sense of self. So when people say, well, why
• 1:07:46
  Speaker 1: didn't person A just leave or why didn't person be
• 1:07:51
  Speaker 1: et cetera, Well, this is the answer to it. When
• 1:07:53
  Speaker 1: your whole life and your whole sense of self is
• 1:07:55
  Speaker 1: wrapped up in this thing, this church knows it, and
• 1:07:59
  Speaker 1: so they know how to get people to jump when
• 1:08:01
  Speaker 1: they say jump in all these crazy things, and then
• 1:08:03
  Speaker 1: they get people to victimize other people. Oh god, it's
• 1:08:07
  Speaker 1: a mess.
• 1:08:07
  Speaker 2: That's why it's such a big deal. When somebody actually
• 1:08:10
  Speaker 2: does leave right right, it's huge, And it seems like
• 1:08:14
  Speaker 2: everybody who leaves it's such a big deal. You would think, like,
• 1:08:19
  Speaker 2: isn't there someone who just kind of left and like
• 1:08:21
  Speaker 2: it wasn't that big of a deal of family from
• 1:08:23
  Speaker 2: what I understand at this point. No, every time someone leaves,
• 1:08:27
  Speaker 2: it's such a big deal.
• 1:08:29
  Speaker 1: Right, And so it's like, you know, I could easily
• 1:08:31
  Speaker 1: be a cult eader. I'm super charismatic, I have cancer.
• 1:08:34
  Speaker 1: I could be like, people need to give me money
• 1:08:37
  Speaker 1: because I'm dying or whatever. The hell guess what? Your
• 1:08:40
  Speaker 1: bish would never do that. And you know what, In fact,
• 1:08:42
  Speaker 1: I tell people all the time, I'm like, all the
• 1:08:44
  Speaker 1: ways you support me is great. Not everyone can pay
• 1:08:47
  Speaker 1: to be a supporter. I totally respect it. And if
• 1:08:49
  Speaker 1: you can't please, there's no hard feelings that is. That
• 1:08:53
  Speaker 1: is real love and support. Not where if you think differently,
• 1:09:00
  Speaker 1: or you do something different, or you don't pay ten
• 1:09:02
  Speaker 1: percent of your tithing like the church told people, if
• 1:09:06
  Speaker 1: you can't eat, if you can't afford to eat, that's
• 1:09:10
  Speaker 1: too bad. You still have to pay ten percent of
• 1:09:12
  Speaker 1: your tithing.
• 1:09:13
  Speaker 2: Yeah, if you have to choose between tithing and eating,
• 1:09:16
  Speaker 2: you choose tithing.
• 1:09:18
  Speaker 1: Does that sound like love and godliness to you?
• 1:09:21
  Speaker 2: Amy?
• 1:09:22
  Speaker 1: Thank you all for listening to this very intense episode.
• 1:09:25
  Speaker 1: I hope that we have helped somebody feel seen and
• 1:09:29
  Speaker 1: heard because at the end of the day, trauma survivors,
• 1:09:33
  Speaker 1: that's all they want. They need someone to tell them
• 1:09:35
  Speaker 1: that they are not the problem, and they deserved better,
• 1:09:38
  Speaker 1: and you are loved and you are worthy, and please
• 1:09:42
  Speaker 1: give yourself the gift of healing. Because the one thing
• 1:09:45
  Speaker 1: that I'll end all of this with is that each
• 1:09:47
  Speaker 1: and every one of these people who shared their story,
• 1:09:51
  Speaker 1: they are living their happiest, freest life because on the
• 1:09:56
  Speaker 1: other side of pain is freedom. And you speak your truth,
• 1:10:01
  Speaker 1: when you use that voice, when you let all those
• 1:10:04
  Speaker 1: things in you out, there is freedom at the end
• 1:10:06
  Speaker 1: of that rainbow. I swear to you, I promise you.
• 1:10:10
  Speaker 2: So the end of that rainbow, end of the rainbow,
• 1:10:12
  Speaker 2: which is why you know the rainbow it can it
• 1:10:18
  Speaker 2: signifies pride, but it also signifies so many people who
• 1:10:22
  Speaker 2: are free, that's right, from the chains of living a lie.
• 1:10:26
  Speaker 1: That's right.
• 1:10:26
  Speaker 2: So yeah, thanks for speaking all this truth. And you know,
• 1:10:30
  Speaker 2: we need to do the box breathing, like breathing for
• 1:10:34
  Speaker 2: three out for three, in for three, hold for three
• 1:10:37
  Speaker 2: out for three, just to get us back to neutral
• 1:10:41
  Speaker 2: because it's hard to you know, take on a day
• 1:10:43
  Speaker 2: when you learn about the immense suffering of other people
• 1:10:48
  Speaker 2: and how widespread it is. So let's all just treat
• 1:10:51
  Speaker 2: each other kindly this holiday season and be you.
• 1:10:56
  Speaker 1: Be you Boo, go and be you your family, you know,
• 1:11:00
  Speaker 1: maybe don't speak the truth totally there, but speak it
• 1:11:04
  Speaker 1: with people who can hear you. No, I joke, but
• 1:11:06
  Speaker 1: in all sincerity. The key to recovering is you have
• 1:11:10
  Speaker 1: to be in the presence of an empathetic witness who
• 1:11:12
  Speaker 1: has the capacity of hearing you. You're not going to
• 1:11:15
  Speaker 1: talk to family members who may have wounded you and
• 1:11:19
  Speaker 1: can't hear it. So there are tenants to this. But
• 1:11:23
  Speaker 1: seek out your empathetic witnesses who can hear you. And
• 1:11:26
  Speaker 1: it's been my honor for my whole career to be
• 1:11:29
  Speaker 1: an empathetic witness. I dedicated my life to helping people.
• 1:11:33
  Speaker 1: At least. I thought to myself, if I can give
• 1:11:35
  Speaker 1: these people one hour a week of my best and
• 1:11:40
  Speaker 1: my greatest, that's got to mean something. And it really has.
• 1:11:44
  Speaker 2: Wow. And you know, I do a show of like
• 1:11:48
  Speaker 2: five days a week. Sometimes I do six shows or seven.
• 1:11:52
  Speaker 2: I'll cover eight podcasts and you know what, if you
• 1:11:55
  Speaker 2: took a few minutes out of each of those podcasts,
• 1:11:57
  Speaker 2: you might get the best of me, you know, and
• 1:12:00
  Speaker 2: that's all I can do.
• 1:12:02
  Speaker 1: You might get.
• 1:12:02
  Speaker 2: One hour in total of eight hours that I put out.
• 1:12:07
  Speaker 1: We need listen, we need laughter, and we need light
• 1:12:10
  Speaker 1: and so that that is where you come in, the laughter,
• 1:12:15
  Speaker 1: the comedy, the I love your lightness crush exactly exactly,
• 1:12:20
  Speaker 1: And I think that's why we work well together, because we,
• 1:12:22
  Speaker 1: you know, with the dark needs some light and vice versa.
• 1:12:26
  Speaker 2: So that's right. Thanks Melissa. This was a heavy load
• 1:12:30
  Speaker 2: to bear and to break this all down for us,
• 1:12:33
  Speaker 2: And I know, honestly, like you could. Probably you've scratched
• 1:12:37
  Speaker 2: the surface a lot, but I know that how much
• 1:12:40
  Speaker 2: more you have to share and to teach us about.
• 1:12:44
  Speaker 2: So but thank you for letting me be a part
• 1:12:46
  Speaker 2: of this.
• 1:12:46
  Speaker 1: Of course. But let's tell him Amy, Let's tell him
• 1:12:49
  Speaker 1: where everyone can find us.
• 1:12:51
  Speaker 2: Hey, I'm over at If you want more episodes, Okay,
• 1:12:56
  Speaker 2: if it's not on my public which is Drama Darling
• 1:12:58
  Speaker 2: on the public wherever you get your podcasts, go on
• 1:13:00
  Speaker 2: over to Patreon dot com slash drama Darling more content
• 1:13:03
  Speaker 2: over there you can get into the conversation and I'm
• 1:13:06
  Speaker 2: on meet Amy Phillips on Instagram. How about you?
• 1:13:08
  Speaker 1: Yeah, so you can find my free podcast everywhere available,
• 1:13:13
  Speaker 1: and I post videos on Spotify, on YouTube, and on
• 1:13:17
  Speaker 1: my Patreon. My patreon, like Amy is really where it's at.
• 1:13:21
  Speaker 1: We have such a key key and I just love
• 1:13:23
  Speaker 1: it over there. So check out patreon dot com. You
• 1:13:26
  Speaker 1: can search for Drama Darling. You can search for your
• 1:13:29
  Speaker 1: bish Therapist and you can find us, and there you are, Boom,
• 1:13:33
  Speaker 1: there you are.
• 1:13:33
  Speaker 2: And I think I'll be back maybe on like December.
• 1:13:37
  Speaker 2: I'm sorry, January third, because January second is a Monday,
• 1:13:41
  Speaker 2: and I don't think there's going to be a show
• 1:13:43
  Speaker 2: on New Year's Eve, so I'll probably be back on
• 1:13:46
  Speaker 2: January third.
• 1:13:46
  Speaker 1: Thank you, Okay, so you can look forward to I'm
• 1:13:49
  Speaker 1: going to be ending the year with Mandy and beginning
• 1:13:51
  Speaker 1: the year with Amy. I mean, I am blessed. We
• 1:13:54
  Speaker 1: are blessed. I am so thrilled. So for everyone listening,
• 1:14:00
  Speaker 1: yes today, we thank you so very much. Sending love
• 1:14:03
  Speaker 1: to you and yours TATAP for now.
• 1:14:05
  Speaker 2: Thank you.
• 1:14:07
  Speaker 1: Disclaimer posts are not intended to diagnose, treat, or provide
• 1:14:10
  Speaker 1: medical advice. Your bish Therapist is for entertainment and informational
• 1:14:14
  Speaker 1: purposes only. The podcast, My opinions and posts are my
• 1:14:18
  Speaker 1: own and not associated with past or present employers, any organizations, BravoTV,
• 1:14:23
  Speaker 1: Greyheart Productions, or any other television network. The information in
• 1:14:28
  Speaker 1: YBT podcast and on its social media is provided for
• 1:14:30
  Speaker 1: general informational purposes only and is not intended to diagnose
• 1:14:34
  Speaker 1: our treat Please do not act or refrain from acting
• 1:14:37
  Speaker 1: based on anything you read, see, or hear on YBT
• 1:14:40
  Speaker 1: podcast or associated social media. Communicating with ybtvia email and
• 1:14:44
  Speaker 1: or social media does not form a therapeutic alliance. Melissa,
• 1:14:48
  Speaker 1: operator of YBT, is unable to provide any therapeutic advice, treatment,
• 1:14:54
  Speaker 1: or feedback.