Latest / Arguing Ever After / Who Is the Ultimate Boss? 🕵️‍♂️⚖️ | Episode 44: The Great Gangster Debate

Transcript

Who Is the Ultimate Boss? 🕵️‍♂️⚖️ | Episode 44: The Great Gangster Debate · Arguing Ever After

0:15
Hello and welcome to Arguing Ever After.
0:17
I'm Luke and this is Amber. Hello.
0:20
Together we're the Lord and Lady who lock horns.
0:22
The count and Countess of contention.
0:24
The Duke and Duchess of Disagreement.
0:26
And the king and queen of quarrels.
0:28
In this podcast, we bicker about all things big and small, and
0:32
the audience vote determines who the winner is.
0:36
Many of our topics are frequently submitted by our
0:38
listeners, which we actually like and need, so if you have
0:42
any ideas you'd like us to battle about, please send it to
0:44
us at arguingeverafter at gmailcom.
0:48
So this is exciting. We are like I don't.
0:52
Even know what I'm excited about and I'm excited.
0:54
I, I think we're on like episode 43 or 44.
0:57
I don't even actually know the answer to that.
0:59
But we're deep, deep into the numbers.
1:02
We just lost track. We're.
1:04
So far in that we've lost track. Yeah, well, we had a bonus that
1:08
that was just published, which we published.
1:11
So it's no longer a bonus because now it just is a thing.
1:14
Because we're crushing it on sinus infections.
1:16
Yeah, yeah, we both are sitting here with a sinus infection
1:20
right now. So but here we do, We continue
1:23
on, we continue on. But we've been talking about
1:28
some places and I just wanna start right away, right into the
1:32
think quiz for Luke of some new countries that we have.
1:37
OK OK, so somewhere around here I happen to have a quiz for you
1:44
cuz Luke likes quizzes. I do like to learn.
1:46
Is it a quiz or is it trivia? I don't know both.
1:50
Quiz would be like I'm telling you points and I get a prize or
1:53
something. Well, you're gonna.
1:56
Is it trivia? It's.
1:57
Trivia cuz it's cuz if you get it wrong.
1:59
What happens in trivia? Nothing.
2:02
Well, you don't win the trivia. OK, well, you're not going to
2:05
win, so you're not. Going to win.
2:08
You're not. There's no way you're going to
2:09
guess these because also it's been a while since you've looked
2:12
at like any new countries. But we do have to say hello.
2:16
So we are going to move forward into the trivia section for
2:19
Luke. Here we go.
2:20
This is a new country and they are the sailing capital of the
2:24
world. I think I already know.
2:27
This. You already know this.
2:28
Yeah, this is annoying. If you do, I'm gonna just say it
2:31
and. Then you can keep reading.
2:33
Pretend like you didn't know if I was right or wrong.
2:37
OK. Belize, keep going.
2:39
Only people born there can drive taxis.
2:43
Whoa. Yeah, yeah.
2:46
Well, that's an interesting. Bit of trivia.
2:51
That seems like a really strange thing to lock down, yeah,
2:54
governmentally speaking. Yeah, yeah.
2:56
If you haven't been born there, you cannot drive a taxi there.
3:00
And it was once a major hotbed for pirates.
3:04
OK, could still be believes. Keep going.
3:06
That's my final clue for you. Oh what?
3:11
That's not even fair. It was once a hotbed for.
3:17
Yeah. What?
3:18
Yeah. Man, well, I don't know.
3:23
I don't know what made me think Belize and sailing.
3:26
I'm just going to go for it. Belize, it's.
3:29
The British Virgin Islands. Dang it, Dang it.
3:33
Yeah, I mean, that didn't come to mind immediately.
3:36
So I'm trying to make these a little bit.
3:38
Harder. I mean, I it was still Caribbean
3:40
because pirates. Yeah.
3:41
I mean, I was a little afraid that you would get it based on
3:45
that. Why did I think Belize was the
3:47
world capital? Is that what you said of
3:49
sailing? The sailing capital of the
3:50
world. Yeah, yeah.
3:51
I don't know why I thought that was Belize.
3:54
I've never even been there. Yeah, you haven't been to the
3:57
British Virgin Islands either, but I think you know how to say
4:00
hello. In the British Virgin Islands,
4:03
yes. Hello.
4:05
There you go, British. You won.
4:07
Alright, won that Trivia. OK, is.
4:09
My prize? Bragging rights.
4:12
So this is another one that Luke didn't have.
4:18
Like usually he has time to prep and like, learn the language and
4:21
all of that. But I was like, you know, these
4:23
languages. So.
4:24
So it makes it more fun. OK, So this country, it really
4:31
does. This country has the world's
4:33
tallest uninterrupted waterfalls.
4:39
Angels Falls is what it's called.
4:44
Does that get you anything? Not necessarily.
4:48
OK, they I wanna say Costa Rica because they're known for
4:51
waterfalls, but. There is a lake here that holds
4:54
the world record for lightning strikes.
4:58
What a strange. It's strange, isn't it thing?
5:02
It's very strange. OK, world.
5:04
Record for a Lightning. Strike.
5:05
Your last clue might get you there.
5:09
It might. It's name means Little Venice.
5:16
OK. So that is all your clues.
5:19
What country do you think we're saying hello to?
5:21
Little. Venice.
5:23
Little Venice. Venezuela.
5:29
You got it. Ho all right, you were right,
5:33
the last one helped. It did.
5:35
It did. I knew it would.
5:36
I knew it would. So did.
5:37
They have like a water city in Venezuela.
5:40
I have no idea. Why is it called Little Venice?
5:42
I you know what? I'm sad about your research
5:45
right now. I don't know, but they have.
5:47
Where's our third device? It's.
5:49
Actually, I didn't bring. It down, Dang it.
5:51
I was going to bring it down today and I did it.
5:53
I was like, don't forget, bring it down.
5:56
I'm so proud. Proud of you, Luke.
5:57
Like. I'm proud of me.
5:59
Too. You got that one.
6:00
And how do you think you say hello in Venezuela?
6:03
Hola. All right, all right.
6:06
Yes, I'm I'm proud of you so. Wait, you actually sounded
6:12
proud? For a second, I am like, I would
6:14
have never gotten that in a million years.
6:16
So, but I mean, I thought when I looked at that clue, I thought
6:19
maybe, but I. Want to know more about
6:21
Lightning Lake? I know, isn't that amazing?
6:23
Sounds interesting. Yeah, I can't pronounce it.
6:26
It's like. Place in the game the legend.
6:29
Marnacaibo Lake. Oh, let me see it.
6:32
You're. I can read Spanish.
6:33
So you can read Spanish, but can you read my chicken?
6:37
Scratches without glasses, that's for sure.
6:40
I don't know if I put down an R and but it doesn't, you know, it
6:44
matters to you all and it probably would matter if you
6:47
wanted to. Well, it's.
6:47
Going to be It's Mara because Mar is a water word, sea or.
6:53
All right, there you go. So Maracaibo.
6:56
Yeah, that's if you want to learn more about the most.
6:58
Lightning Maracaibo. There you go.
7:01
Sounds perfect anyhow, so like. Maybe it's Maracaibo?
7:08
Could be could. Be I've been, I've been taken.
7:11
I don't have any more tools people.
7:13
You have no more tools because I also could have very easily
7:16
misspelled it. So that's that's why I'm like,
7:20
don't, don't like don't look too close.
7:22
Chicken scratch could be wrong, but also my spelling could be
7:25
wrong because, you know, sometimes I'm writing in a
7:27
hurry. Lately though, Well, it looks
7:31
like I don't know if you all see that, but I'm being moved over a
7:34
little bit by a dog who decided that he needed to come over, who
7:39
just graced us with. His presence, if you know what
7:42
I'm. Saying he's wonderful, he's a
7:43
wonderful boy. He wanted to sit by us and he.
7:46
So the other day I turned out one of my favorite podcasts, as
7:52
I do. We both do that.
7:55
Quite frequently, yeah. Yeah.
7:56
And they were talking about this gang, this couple, OK, And it
8:04
was really fast. Bonnie and Clyde, are we still
8:06
in trivia mode? No, but you know, of course,
8:08
like I mean Bonnie and Clyde come to mind all the time, you
8:11
know, because they're they're very famous.
8:14
But it was another couple who would like stick up places and
8:18
stuff like that. But.
8:20
Did they rob banks? No, it was like grocery stores.
8:24
But they did rob the Nabisco plant.
8:27
Then a biscuit. They took a bunch of biscuits.
8:29
And no on payday because they used to pay people cash like.
8:33
Oh, that doesn't sound very nice.
8:35
Well, I mean, I don't know, I'm sure.
8:36
I mean, gangsters aren't nice. I mean, but like.
8:40
So there's that. I understand their reason for
8:42
existence, right? Like I mean, typically it's like
8:45
I have no choice. I'm you know, there are very few
8:48
choices. You know, in life I'm going to
8:49
be poor or find a way to not be poor.
8:55
Most crime is a crime of necessity for the, for the, you
9:00
know when you're talking about financial state, right?
9:02
That's that's not true. Criminals often start that way.
9:06
Let's say that. Well, and I think that's what's
9:08
so fascinating to us about like especially the ones in the olden
9:11
days is very different because like we can disassociate, right?
9:15
Like they were, they were then, this is now.
9:19
But you know, I mean, like, I feel like a lot of us can see
9:22
that we're closer to being poor and desolate than we are to
9:26
being rich in, you know, moguls, right?
9:28
So like, you know, the concept of the common man fighting back,
9:33
you know, that can ring. I don't know, like it can.
9:38
Inspiring isn't necessarily the word I mean, but, you know, like
9:41
it could be. Like a little Robin Hood
9:43
situation. Yeah, Robin Hood's great.
9:45
Good old Robin of Locksley. Yeah, yeah.
9:47
I don't think most of the gangs back then were like that, but
9:52
there certainly were some, I'm sure.
9:54
I mean, and a lot of times, you know, it's in the gangs kind of
10:00
developed in underserved neighborhoods, right?
10:03
So like they still do, they still do, right.
10:05
These are still facts that happen.
10:07
You know, you're, you're either going to like, if you're, if
10:14
you're affluent in an affluent neighborhood, you know, maybe
10:16
the police are around more for patrol.
10:18
But like, I mean, if there's a lot of it seems like they just
10:21
kind of leave certain neighborhoods alone.
10:23
Yeah. And so when there's nobody
10:25
taking care of something, someone's gonna take care of it.
10:28
You know, sure, someone's going to step up.
10:30
And maybe that's Robin Hood, maybe it's Batman, maybe it's.
10:33
Wait, Batman's not a gangster? Whoa.
10:38
I don't know anything about Batman, but like, obviously I'm
10:41
just saying. His parents were billionaires.
10:44
And he's fake, right? OK, right.
10:47
I mean, they're fake gangsters too.
10:49
I'm not saying there aren't fake gangsters, but like, I, I don't
10:53
know, maybe it's just me and maybe it's, you know, I don't
10:58
know. I just think like there's almost
11:01
a special, like we have a different place in our minds and
11:06
our psyche as a society for gangsters than we do for other
11:11
types of folks, right? Like there's people who are
11:13
really into Scarface or really into the Godfather.
11:16
Like it's almost a sure not worship, but I don't know what
11:21
would you call that Like a? Yeah, there's like that.
11:23
It's not not anti hero, but that word comes to mind.
11:29
Yeah, sure. There's like a sort of like AI
11:33
don't know, like a respect for the darker side of things for
11:38
whatever reason. I don't know why.
11:40
Well, I feel like a lot of people would have no issue if
11:44
someone who was starving were to steal bread, right?
11:47
Right. Like I mean.
11:48
Except the person who owned the bread.
11:49
They would be upset. Right.
11:51
But society might not. Right.
11:54
Maybe not. Right.
11:56
So like there's a point where the crime maybe goes beyond
11:59
where you're like, OK, now you're in excess and that's no
12:02
longer OK. But I really, I don't know.
12:05
I would. That's kind of where I struggle
12:07
is like, where is that line, you know, and when does it become, I
12:13
don't know, beyond, beyond what's societally acceptable,
12:17
you know, if you have no other options And you know, I don't
12:20
know, I don't know. I mean, there's certainly going
12:23
to be a lot of Gray area in any discussion like that.
12:26
Well, and there's also like the whole vigilante justice thing
12:29
you can look into because that's technically criminal, but also,
12:33
you know, like when somebody is like committing crimes to
12:37
protect a child or you. Know, right, right.
12:40
Well, you have like, I mean you have well with gangs, mobs,
12:46
stuff like that. A lot of times they're they are
12:48
being protective. They're like, this is the
12:50
neighborhood that we protect and hurt sometimes, you know?
12:54
But like that then a lot of times they're like, this is my
12:58
territory. Olden days, a lot of that
13:00
started as like sort of like race protection, like they were
13:03
like Irish, Italian, like, you know, the old stuff.
13:07
It was like they were protecting their people from, right, the
13:11
cops essentially like right, right.
13:13
It was not nice times back then. I mean, I think there's always
13:18
gonna be a little bit of some of that and some corruption and
13:23
where, again, where the resources go, you know, I mean,
13:26
who are we protecting against and who are we?
13:31
Who are we serving? Is there?
13:32
A mob protecting us. I don't know.
13:35
I don't know that we necessarily have that.
13:37
But like there are certainly places throughout the world
13:40
where the the whatever mob or whatever it is, is actually, I
13:44
mean, we've gone on vacation to places like that where didn't
13:47
matter to us who was in control. But you know, like parts of some
13:52
of the places we've gone to, it certainly wasn't the police who
13:55
were in control and it felt safe and absolutely fine for us, you
14:00
know. But was it I, I don't know, I
14:02
guess. I mean, it's interesting you
14:06
used to watch a lot of those type of gangster movies though.
14:11
Heck yeah. I feel like it's been a while.
14:14
I I think the last one I've watched that I really enjoyed
14:18
was Gangs of New York. That was good.
14:20
That's a good one. That's a really good one.
14:22
That's a good one. I don't know it's.
14:24
Brutal, but it's good. You know, it is interesting.
14:28
That does seem to be a part of it that is required almost is
14:31
the brutality right? But life's brutal somewhere
14:34
sometimes, you know? It's all the time.
14:36
Is it all the time brutal? Well, it's also all the time
14:40
wonderful. I mean, a lot of times for a lot
14:43
of people, I think for some people it's not all the time
14:46
wonderful, which is. Well, that was sort of my point.
14:49
It was both. OK, OK.
14:52
It's always good and evil, it seems.
14:55
Yeah, we're getting deep now. We are getting very deep.
14:59
Let's get deeper. Let's get deeper.
15:03
OK, So we're talking about gangs.
15:07
Yeah. Luke, let me ask you a question.
15:12
What? That is the earliest.
15:15
Ladies and gentlemen, we are going early with the This is the
15:20
moment you've all been waiting for.
15:22
Not for very long. No, not for very long.
15:24
I mean, we're gonna have to keep up some banter cuz that felt
15:28
real fast. Yeah, but we.
15:29
Felt real fast. We did some research though and
15:32
I have notes. Did I know that's?
15:33
My SO maybe the debate will be a little longer.
15:36
Well, here we go. In this corner, we have Amber.
15:40
Yes. Claiming to weigh in at 135 lbs.
15:44
Sure. Looking smoking hot, you said?
15:47
Sure. And in this corner we have Luke
15:55
and looking nice and dapper and you're all most black.
16:00
My long sleeve T. Shirt and you're most black and
16:05
he is coming in actually. Hold on claiming to weigh in at
16:10
what I'm. Sorry, claiming to weigh in at
16:11
185. And you know what I weighed in
16:13
at the other day? What Real talk 183 But then,
16:17
here's what happened. What had happened?
16:19
Then we went to Denny's. Oh gosh, and I got a lumberjack
16:23
slam some doughnut holes on the side of extra egg and some sub
16:27
pancakes. And I want you to know that when
16:30
you're 40, whatever I am, it just comes right back.
16:35
So I'm claiming to weigh in at 185.
16:38
Yeah, I, I don't even, I don't even weigh.
16:39
Myself, But I did. I was like, I'm curious.
16:41
And then I was like, oh, Dang. And then I was like, oh Dang.
16:44
I don't want to check. I was listening to an older
16:48
podcast for one of our one of our, our WFNU things and I was
16:56
laughing because I was talking about the Canyon.
16:58
I was like, oh, that's going to be a March problem.
17:00
Well, here we are in May and. Here we are in May.
17:05
Here we are in May anyhow, but we've had a bit of a a change in
17:11
our our tallies here. Yeah, where I was getting
17:16
smoked. You.
17:16
Were getting smoked, but you're catching up actually good very
17:20
quickly. We very quick we have we've
17:23
caught up on we've got an additional.
17:25
Time to spare record. Yeah, we haven't announced this
17:28
in a while. Yeah, we haven't announced it in
17:30
a while. We are at 9 ties.
17:32
So we we picked up a tie. We picked up a tie.
17:35
We picked up a tie. It's.
17:36
Been a while. It's been a while, you're right
17:37
a very long time actually. According to this you are at 18
17:42
losses. Well, that's the same.
17:45
You had eighteen wins. Yeah.
17:46
Yeah. What did I win?
17:49
16 wins. I'm getting closer.
17:52
You are getting a lot closer. You're getting a lot closer the.
17:57
Means I need 3 to win. I'm just saying.
18:00
I know, I know, I know. And and I'm thinking today, even
18:04
though you're like, yeah, wow, that's quick.
18:07
Today's episode we've been talking about for a little bit
18:11
and while we've been sick and all sorts of things, it's given
18:14
us more time to research. But my big question for you,
18:18
Luke. OK.
18:19
We talked very briefly about gangs.
18:21
We did. Who is your favorite gangster?
18:27
OK. That's my question.
18:30
So I will say I didn't research the entirety of the annals of
18:36
history. Really, I'm disappointed.
18:39
I just went mostly with like, you know, currently still in the
18:45
sort of modern times, OK. And for me, because as you
18:54
alluded to all the gangster movies, I mean, like in the 80s
18:59
and, well, 70s, maybe even 80, I mean, I was in 11 in the 70s.
19:03
But in the 80s and 90s, gangster movies were like the flick.
19:07
Like, that was what was happening.
19:10
And growing up watching all the gangster movies, you did kind of
19:15
get this like, weird, like admiration of love for the
19:20
mafia, as I and many of my young male colleagues did.
19:27
And we would fantasize about being mobsters.
19:30
And, you know, it was, it was fun.
19:34
And man, there were some good movies.
19:38
The Godfather, widely considered one of the best movies of all
19:42
time by by people. Yes, many people.
19:47
Yes, lots of people. And so for me, it was like
19:51
probably gonna land in that zone, the Italian mafia, OK.
19:56
And mostly that's just cause of like what I'm familiar with.
19:59
The Italian American Mafia. Right Mafia.
20:03
Well, this person that I picked was is a kind of a hybrid, so.
20:10
Worldwide. What yet?
20:11
Yes, like us. Like us?
20:15
Like us. So my pick is Lucky Luciano.
20:22
OK. And there's a number of reasons
20:26
I picked Lucky Luciano. I am really excited to hear all
20:30
about that 'cause I don't know that much about.
20:31
Him without any weight on it whatsoever.
20:33
That was one of my nicknames. Yes.
20:37
Cuz Luke, you know, Lucky Luciano and Luke and then
20:41
whatever anyway. But that's not actually why I
20:44
did some research about different specifically like
20:47
mobsters of our era, OK. And Lucky Luciano, if like if
20:52
you asked me and I had done no research, he would have been in
20:56
my top five anyway. Obviously other notable
21:00
gangsters, people have probably heard of lots of them.
21:02
There's Al Capone. He's probably the most infamous.
21:06
Who liked a vacation in our in the Twin Cities area?
21:10
He did. He did.
21:12
There's lots of little local stories about stashes that he'd
21:15
have around. And yeah, you know, he was
21:18
famous all over. He was a predecessor down the
21:23
road from Lucky. Lucky Luciano was born in
21:28
Sicily, which is a province in Italy, and he was born in 1897.
21:34
Oh, you have years. Even Luke.
21:37
I did. I wrote, I wrote down some
21:38
stuff. His name is Salvatore Luciana,
21:44
but his name is when he came over was Charles Luciano.
21:48
I guess you know how like when they immigrate and the people
21:50
change names a lot they like. To do that on Ellis Island,
21:53
they're like, you know what, you look like a George.
21:56
Well, it's. That's not my name, but no.
21:57
No, we joke about this at work because we see people's names a
22:00
lot, but there's a lot of people, like, whose last names
22:02
are like, German. Yeah, Freitag.
22:05
Oh yeah. And you know, when they came in,
22:07
they came in on a Friday. Like it wasn't probably their
22:10
last name anyway. So, so anyway, so then Lucky,
22:14
the reason he got that name was after much of his mob career, he
22:20
was nicknamed Lucky because like like kind of nothing ever went
22:24
wrong for him. Nice.
22:27
Probably because he strong armed his way into a lot of luck.
22:31
He is considered. Wait is that is that a thing?
22:34
Can you strong arm your way into luck or is that just?
22:39
Sure he did. So he is considered the father
22:45
of the Italian American Mafia, really the mafia that we know
22:48
today. He is considered to be the guy
22:50
that made it happen. There's a few reasons for that.
22:54
He they had so the Cosa Nostra was like the mob in Sicily that
23:00
migrated to America and they had a title which I now can't
23:05
remember the Italian for, but it was like boss of the bosses.
23:09
He undid that. Is that hefe El hefe?
23:12
Well, that's Spanish, so no, But that's right in Spanish.
23:18
Whoa. Really.
23:19
Like. That maybe that's the name, if
23:21
you went to the cartels, maybe you would find the boss of the
23:24
bosses anyway. So the reason that he's
23:29
considered the the father of the Mafia is because he undid the
23:33
Cosa Nostra and their sort of rank system where there was a
23:35
Supreme like overlord kind of person probably I'm guessing by
23:41
killing him or something or had him having him killed.
23:44
And he founded what was called the Commission, which was the
23:50
bosses of the five families in New York City.
23:53
This. Is the.
23:54
Family many people will recognize that from the
23:57
Godfather movie, there was the that was literally part of the
24:01
movie, The Commission, the five families.
24:04
He was the leader of the Luciano crime family, which he renamed
24:10
after the Commission to the Genovese crime family, and they
24:13
operated in New York for like a long time.
24:16
Yeah, yeah. I think maybe up until the 80s
24:19
even. I think so, and maybe still
24:21
today. And nobody.
24:22
Knows well who knows, right, right.
24:24
And then I mean like the way that the way that he did it and
24:28
the way that this worked was he sort of took it away from like
24:31
the warring crime factions. There was actually like a mob
24:34
war that that preceded the founding of this thing.
24:37
And he turned it more into like a business model where these
24:41
bosses were of course, brutal and criminal, but he made it
24:44
like it was like CE OS kind of. And like they had like they took
24:50
their military like rankings and made them more into business
24:53
like rankings. And the Five families were in
24:58
control of essentially the entirety of the Mafia in the
25:01
States. They had their hands in the
25:04
formation of the Mafia that started Las Vegas.
25:08
Yeah. They had their hands in New
25:10
York, Chicago, Philadelphia, Detroit, like all the big hot
25:14
spots back in the Prohibition era, like in the 20s.
25:17
Yeah. Yeah.
25:19
And then like, some of his successors are also hugely
25:24
known, like Vito Genovese. Vito, being the Vito Corleone
25:30
from the Godfather movie was the Godfather.
25:34
They sort of. They took a mixture of the
25:37
stories and made him the movie figure.
25:39
And then Frank Costello, who was the leader of the Genovese crime
25:43
family. He's also known.
25:45
I know the name, right? I know that like if you've seen
25:47
any mob movies, you've seen these guys names.
25:50
One of his closest friends was Meyer Lansky.
25:53
I know that name too. Who was one of the bosses of the
25:56
Jewish Mafia in New York, and he was considered the financier of
26:01
the mob. And so anyway, so the reasons
26:07
that Lucky Luciano sticks out to me is for his like, sort of
26:11
pioneering a new way for the mob to move forward and gain control
26:16
and like, do what they did and become infamous in the way that
26:21
they did. So how long was he mobbing?
26:26
Funny you should ask, I have more notes in 1936.
26:32
Yeah. After being pursued for quite a
26:35
while by some law enforcement person who I don't remember, was
26:40
convicted for 30 to 50 years. Wow.
26:43
They got him on prostitution charges.
26:46
Oh, makes sense. Because they couldn't get him on
26:47
anything else. Right, it's usually something
26:49
small. And he, this may come as no
26:54
surprise to you, did not serve any time.
26:56
Oh nice. Meyer Lansky.
26:58
Who the financier of the mob also had his financial influence
27:03
in other places and. He worked out a.
27:06
Deal quote UN quote with the government to commute his
27:13
sentence so long as he deported back to Sicily?
27:17
Oh. How nice for him.
27:19
What happened in Sicily? So long as the.
27:22
Italian government said that they would be, you know, like in
27:27
control of him or whatever. Yeah.
27:28
There was no like official crimes he had been convicted of
27:31
in Italy. So.
27:32
So he went back, obviously. Yeah.
27:37
And and in Italy he was. Hold on, I'm gonna flip to page
27:44
2. Is this in The Godfather?
27:45
Movie. I swear to God this was in the
27:47
Godfather. Many parts.
27:49
Of his story OK are like integrated into the Godfather
27:54
story OK? It's not like a one to.
27:56
One right, right. But yeah, parts.
27:59
Of it. So in Italy he was he was chased
28:03
not chased like physically chased, but he was sought after
28:06
for many crimes. Yeah, I I wouldn't.
28:10
Chase him right? Realistic.
28:14
Well, I. Don't think, I think that's kind
28:15
of what happened is people would catch him and he'd be like,
28:18
really, really, Are you sure 'cause these are the names of
28:21
your children and grandchildren? And like, I mean, he was like a
28:24
mob boss. Like he was probably like
28:27
realistically in the 20s and 30s, he was probably one of the
28:30
most powerful men on planet Earth and most dangerous.
28:33
Yeah, well, because. He not only had great financial
28:37
influence, which we know even today can, yeah, grant you all
28:42
sorts of legal, yeah, back doors, so to speak.
28:46
Yeah, but because he was a criminal, he operated like
28:51
there's actually a a syndicate. This is the Side Story I'm not
28:55
going to get into about Vegas, but Murder Incorporated, what he
28:59
he helped to found that with Meyer Lansky and they moved to
29:01
Vegas. They had different bosses and
29:03
stuff, but like, that's the name of the organization that Mob
29:07
Murder Incorporated. Like a record label it.
29:12
Has been mentioned in many recordings.
29:16
OK, OK. So yeah.
29:18
And and a lot of the mob. No, no, no.
29:22
Death row the mob. Well, no Murder Inc is the name
29:25
of a recording anyway. OK, I don't know.
29:28
It doesn't need to be about music and rap.
29:31
But so the mob did influence financially many other things
29:36
like Hollywood. They had like, they were
29:38
everywhere. They had their hands in like,
29:41
upstanding, legitimate businesses that were big,
29:45
sprawling empires. Like, you know, they're rumored
29:49
to have been in control of lots of construction companies, yes,
29:53
real estate companies, any. And anyway, so they had their
29:57
hand in the unions. Oh yeah, I mean.
30:00
They were, they were really in charge of like, like everything.
30:03
I don't know. That's why they couldn't catch
30:04
them ever. That's why a guy like this gets
30:07
off on a commuted sentence by just going back to his home
30:10
country. Yeah.
30:10
It's, like, totally insane. Yeah.
30:12
Yeah. So anyway, so when he went back
30:15
to Italy, he was sought after for real estate racketeering?
30:18
Yep. Narcotics trafficking, human
30:21
trafficking, money laundering, all of those things.
30:24
He was arrested a few times, but every time he evaded the
30:28
charges. Nice.
30:30
Nobody. Ever convicted him other than
30:33
here, which was then commuted because he was too powerful and
30:40
probably too scary? Yeah.
30:43
He never was. Married.
30:45
There was allegedly a wife but there's like no record of it.
30:48
So smart. That's a smart lady.
30:53
And. He died in 1962 in in Italy, You
31:00
know, I think it's. Fascinating about like time and
31:03
how that works to me. Like the 1940s, you know, well,
31:08
I guess 20s to 40s, you know, like the mob heyday, right.
31:11
In the US in the 1980s, we are like thinking about the time
31:22
difference. 40s to the 80s is like 40 years.
31:26
Yeah. And now here we are in the 20s
31:28
and it's 40 years and it seems like crazy.
31:31
The differences are so wild, but they're not.
31:36
I mean like, sure, you know, like, I mean, if you think
31:39
about, I mean, I, I think about the 40s and I think of, you
31:42
know, black and white and, you know, like I just, I don't know,
31:46
like just all those, all those things, you know, telephones,
31:49
well, no TV. And then TV is black and white
31:52
and like the radio was the only form of communication.
31:55
And yeah. And then in the 80s, you have
31:57
all these great advancements, but it seems it's archaic when
32:01
you come to today, too. Yeah, yeah.
32:03
It's just it's. Amazing time is weird thinking
32:06
like that. OK, everything happens.
32:10
So much and so fast. All the time.
32:13
Yeah, it really does. It really does.
32:15
All right. Well, so that's it.
32:17
Lucky. Luciano OK.
32:21
Do you have a? Question for me.
32:22
Or do you just want that to be the winner?
32:25
Yeah, that'd be fine. No.
32:27
Why don't you tell the audience and me who you chose for your
32:32
favorite? Favorite feels like a difficult
32:35
word. It's not.
32:36
It's not gangster. OK, so I want.
32:38
You to picture it picture this. Sicily.
32:42
No, no, no. No London Victorian era, OK.
32:48
Kind of. Some slummy neighborhoods.
32:49
What's the date range? Of Victorian London late. 1800s
32:55
SO. Similar when he was born.
32:57
Get similar, Yeah. Similar.
32:58
There must have been a lot going on in the world at that time
33:01
there certainly always. Has been, as we just said,
33:03
there's a little neighborhood. In London, OK.
33:07
And it's got these streets that intersect Castle.
33:10
An elephant, OK. So it is a.
33:13
Known neighborhood of just poor people and criminals?
33:18
Sure. Back.
33:20
In London at that time, you had your halves and your, I mean
33:24
Victorian era. Sure you had like.
33:26
Nobles and absolute. Queen Victoria people.
33:30
And then you had people who were sitting there earning in today's
33:36
pounds, 23 lbs a week in today's value.
33:40
So what is that like 40? Bucks a week probably.
33:43
I don't. Know the American dollar is not
33:45
as strong so but yeah yeah in how do you even what.
33:49
How do you live on? That is the real question.
33:51
You can't exactly. This is where crime comes out of
33:55
is necessity. Well, at that time, there was a
34:03
Because that's just how it is. You have two choices in that
34:06
life. You either live a life at $23 a
34:09
week, which you can't, or you have to find another way to make
34:13
ends meet. So enter the elephants.
34:19
OK, the. Elephants.
34:21
Is not the castles. Not the castles.
34:24
No, the elephants did they live on Elephant St.
34:27
Yeah, yeah. Do you see?
34:29
That you see. That I saw a little.
34:30
Foreshadowing coming? Yeah.
34:32
Yeah, you're welcome for that. Thank you.
34:35
There was a mob called the Elephant Mob, OK, a bunch of
34:40
guys in the area who kind of ran the area a little bit, sure, but
34:45
you also this is around the same.
34:46
Time as the oh Dang it I can't remember their last name.
34:49
There was like 2 twin brothers. There's ATV show called Peaky
34:53
Blinders. It's based on them.
34:54
I don't know like. London Mobsters.
34:56
They were. Not there at they are not in
35:00
this neighborhood. Might be a different time.
35:02
They are not in this. Neighborhood.
35:03
I don't know if it's a different time, but there was then also
35:07
these women who had grown up in this world where I have two, I
35:13
have three choices, right? Like I could marry a poor man
35:17
and be a poor man's wife. OK.
35:20
I could go work in a. Factory and make 23 lbs a week.
35:25
Or. Follow the oldest profession,
35:28
right? Those are my options.
35:30
You know, there was a couple of great women who got together and
35:37
decided, no, there's something we can do option #4.
35:40
Option number. 4 Let's crime we're criming.
35:45
OK, Crime. Yeah.
35:46
That's our option. And so there was this group and
35:52
they called themselves the Elephants because they lived on
35:56
Elephant St. and Castle Street. And but it was a female gang, an
36:02
all female gang. And it had actually been started
36:05
by this one woman named Mary. Well, she was actually maybe the
36:08
second queen of the elephants. And she had kind of helped group
36:15
these women together so that they could actually like live a
36:18
good life. All of these things.
36:19
I like her a lot. She's not my favorite.
36:22
So did the. OK, nevermind, keep going So.
36:25
After Mary kind of had worked through and she was the leader
36:28
of the gang, she had decided I am going to find my replacement.
36:34
OK, so she anointed or whatever. However you do that, I don't
36:38
know. She picked, she cherry picked
36:39
this girl named Alice Diamond. OK, that's her real.
36:44
Name. Alice Diamond Cool.
36:46
And so I'm going to tell you about the elephants and the
36:49
Queen of the Elephants, what they would do, these women.
36:53
And it was the queen of the 40 elephants, just kind of like the
36:57
40 thieves. They were called 40 elephants,
36:59
40 thieves, you know, inner intermittent, but there's some
37:04
connection. To the Alibaba, you know that's
37:07
a. Really good question.
37:09
Yes, Ish. At the time, the that was a big
37:14
story that was kind of like a lot of people read that as
37:17
children, you know, so. Yeah, I mean.
37:21
Yes they had nothing to do with Alibaba but they were thieves
37:25
and there were a lot of them. 40 to 70 at like the Max.
37:29
I just realized that might. Not be the right name, but I
37:31
pulled that from a Beastie Boys lyric.
37:33
Alibaba and the 40 thief. Oh no, it absolutely.
37:35
It's from the Arabian Nights book, which was actually.
37:38
Do you want to learn about that? No, We'll talk about that
37:40
another time. But I want to.
37:43
Learn all the so that was a story where this woman and I'll
37:48
come back to my lady in a second, but I have to just say
37:50
this. So there was this king and he
37:53
like kept killing his wives because he'd get bored with
37:57
them. I know, I know he'd get bored
37:58
with them. And so there was this one chick
38:01
and I'm going to forget her name.
38:03
And there's someone listening who's like, Oh my gosh, I can't
38:06
believe you don't remember her name.
38:07
But this is the story of the Arabian Nights.
38:09
So she would read or she would tell this king a story.
38:13
His new queen would tell him a story, but she'd leave him on a
38:16
cliffhanger so that he couldn't kill her.
38:19
I got it. And then every night, every
38:21
night and every day. And finally he's like, I'm not
38:23
going to kill you because you're so Dang interesting.
38:25
That's great. But that's where Alibaba and the
38:27
40 thieves came from. Because she was she would never
38:30
like finish the story. So also the song in my.
38:32
Head, because you said Arabian Nights.
38:34
I know. I know, I know.
38:36
Rest in peace, Robin Williams. Yes.
38:38
So anyhow, so, so this group of women, the elephants were fully
38:45
independent of this mob. They would work together like a
38:49
which mob? The elephant mob.
38:51
So there's these guys were in the elephant mob, and then
38:54
there's these women thought they.
38:55
Were the elephant mob? No, these were two separate.
38:57
Gangs. Sorry, you have the guy's gang
38:59
who for a while, like they kind of gave birth to the female
39:02
game. Not literally not.
39:04
Literally. But like, yeah, because, but I
39:07
mean, like, they're kids. They're like, I don't, I don't
39:09
know. I mean, like, what are you going
39:10
to do? You're a poor kid, OK.
39:12
I'm going to teach you how to crime, just like I know how to
39:14
crime. And so I like how we've made
39:17
crime. Over.
39:21
So anyhow, this this woman Mary, who had been the Queen of the
39:26
Elephants, had picked Alice Diamond to be her successor.
39:34
That's the word I was looking for.
39:36
And her first crime that she was caught for?
39:40
Don't say it. Don't say.
39:40
Murdering Mother Mary? OK, Stealing.
39:44
Chocolate stealing chocolate. So like this is when she.
39:48
Was a kid. Yeah, yeah.
39:50
Yeah, yeah, she started her if we're telling the.
39:52
Truth, who hasn't stolen a little chocolate I have not
39:55
stolen? Chocolate.
39:55
What? No, never mind that I said
39:58
anything. You're a terrible.
39:59
Person, but I like chocolate and I can't imagine not recently.
40:06
Anyhow, but she was like, she was really young and, and she
40:10
had kind of gotten pulled in by this woman Mary, you know, cuz
40:13
she's like, dude, you're good at stealing.
40:15
And what these women would do, which was super fascinating, is
40:21
they had it's Victorian era. So think about the dresses that
40:25
they had in the Victorian era. Big.
40:27
Huge. Puffy.
40:28
Dresses. Yeah, well, they would hire
40:33
seamstresses to make them dresses with a bunch of pockets
40:38
all over their dresses, Sure. And in their hats.
40:41
So they could go into these stores OK and just steal like
40:46
crazy. They could also like the.
40:47
Inside of the dress but the slip through hand pocket got it.
40:52
Interior pockets. Tons of pockets.
40:54
Tons of pockets. And then what they would do, So
40:59
what they would do is they would have all these women who were
41:02
going to the store once. And so the clerks would be kind
41:06
of overwhelmed by all of these women because they're like,
41:09
great. Some of them would be big at,
41:12
you know, like, you know, some of them actually were shoppers
41:15
because they had this thing like they would actually go shop in
41:18
these stores too. So they didn't actually know who
41:21
was a thief and who was a customer.
41:24
But, you know, it's that quick sleight of hand.
41:26
And actually, I worked in jewelry many years ago and I
41:28
know the how quick sleight of hand works because I did have
41:32
somebody do that to me one time while I was dealing with
41:34
jewelry. I had jewelry out and they're
41:36
like, let me see this, let me see this, let me see this.
41:38
And I and I seemed like I was putting everything back.
41:41
And then I when I went to put everything back, I'm like, Oh my
41:43
God, I'm actually missing something.
41:46
And it was amazing. It was awful, but it was so
41:48
quick. Yeah.
41:49
So I have been a victim. I'm sure you told me this story,
41:52
but. I forgot I have been a victim.
41:53
As a sales clerk of this of an elephant.
41:56
Woman. Well, it was a man.
41:58
But yes, of this type of crime and I can see how easily it
42:02
would be to just get distracted, you know, by someone who's like,
42:05
I'm looking at this, I'm looking at that.
42:06
So anyhow, they would do this. One of the women in the gang had
42:10
a fake arm sewed into her dress, so she'd have her arm up on the
42:15
counter, but then her other arm would be stealing stuff.
42:17
I mean, they were so smart. The other thing that these women
42:21
would do was they would like, become maids in rich people's
42:27
rich people's houses, and they would steal from the rich people
42:30
and all of that. So they were just really good
42:32
thieves. Now.
42:33
Alice Diamond, who was the queen of the I'd lost my thing right
42:39
away. That's fine.
42:40
It's still working. Hopefully.
42:41
Hopefully. Sorry if the sound changed.
42:43
I lost my little microphone thing.
42:46
I don't know. Poof.
42:47
Yeah, the poof on the microphone.
42:50
Anyhow, so she would this Alice Diamond, she was just very, she
42:57
was a standout for many reasons. She was really tall.
43:01
The average height of a man, I think back in England back then
43:04
was like 5-6. She was 59.
43:08
So she was really tall. She was Amazonian.
43:12
She not only. Yeah, she not only was tall, but
43:16
like, she was also. She wasn't afraid to get in a
43:18
squabble. She was.
43:21
She wore diamonds on all of her fingers instead of using brass
43:26
knuckles. OK.
43:28
So she was. Like, she was in it, you know,
43:30
she's like I'm and people were literally terrified of her.
43:33
The police were terrified of her.
43:34
You know, I mean, like other, other gangs would not come into
43:38
that area because they were scared of her, because she
43:41
wasn't afraid. What is also interesting that
43:44
this gang would do is when they would go into like, they'd get
43:48
caught, go to jail. Yeah.
43:50
They'd break each other out of jail.
43:52
OK, but what I like about Alice Diamond, specifically of the 40
43:59
elephants, was that she invented something called the Hoysters
44:03
Code and the Hoyster, it was what they called a thief.
44:09
So her Hoysters code was if you go, if you're in my gang and you
44:15
go to jail, you better not tell anybody can't tell on us.
44:19
Like, no snitching, right? And.
44:21
While you're in jail, we're going to take care of all of
44:25
your family. OK.
44:27
So why would you tell anybody? Yeah, everybody who was in the
44:32
gang got an equal split of whatever the hall was.
44:37
So whether your your role in that was to be a distraction to
44:42
somebody or, you know, or you were like a thief or whatever,
44:47
you made just as much as the other person.
44:50
So it was it was very equal in that.
44:53
You know, another rule she had that a lot of criminals don't
44:57
do, which gets them in a lot of trouble is she said you can't
45:01
drink the night before or the day of gig.
45:07
What is the word I'm looking for?
45:08
Like you can go a job, a job that's so like she required
45:12
sobriety at the time of every job so that they wouldn't get
45:17
messy and do things like that. So they were, it was very
45:21
interesting how she had these rules and then the other rule
45:28
that she had had, which didn't make her necessarily the most
45:33
popular and actually was her downfall.
45:36
OK. Was.
45:37
You cannot. If you're in my gang, you cannot
45:42
marry someone I don't approve. Oh.
45:45
So whoa. So she wanted.
45:47
To be the yeah, Mother Superior or she didn't want any snitches.
45:53
She didn't want snitches, right? She didn't want to have the
45:55
wrong type of people. And I mean, that ended up being
45:58
her downfall. I mean, she had actually been
46:00
reigning for many years, right? Like many, many years.
46:03
I think a couple of decades. But this is one woman was like
46:07
and they actually had this riot that happened cuz she went to
46:10
teach the girl a lesson about marrying someone when they
46:13
wouldn't and then she ended up doing an 18 month bid in jail.
46:17
Where did she kill the girl? No, she didn't.
46:20
No, OK. I mean, not that they weren't
46:22
nonviolent, not that they were non violent.
46:26
So they were. Violent they could do.
46:28
Some violence if needed, you know, OK, but that wasn't like
46:32
really their, that wasn't their shtick.
46:33
Their shtick was really just stealing a bunch of stuff
46:36
shoplifting. Yeah, shoplifting.
46:37
Was their big thing, that's where they got it.
46:39
So did they do like armed? Robbery.
46:42
No, they didn't need. To do armed robbery.
46:44
But they did, they did have like a lot of times they might have
46:48
some weapons in their clothes for self protection.
46:52
Because remember, these are women.
46:54
Sure, in the Victorian era, Peasants even.
46:57
Yeah, so. Like there are people who are
46:59
going to want to take advantage and come up on you.
47:02
So like they were already you know, and like sometimes they so
47:08
their primary source. Of income was stealing things
47:11
from places things. From places Yep and and people
47:14
right, because they also would do some hustles on some maybe
47:17
less than I don't know, some married men they do some hustles
47:23
on them. Do you mean?
47:25
Prostitution, anything. I mean this.
47:27
Is a family show, but it's possible, you know, but like,
47:31
you know, hey, you were married and you messed around on your
47:34
wife. You're going to have to pay up,
47:36
right? Like, OK, we've caught you.
47:39
It's done. Caught you by?
47:41
Caught you, doesn't. Matter by catching you OK.
47:44
I mean, we caught. You so OK, so that's sure.
47:48
But this gang? Which it started actually like,
47:51
you know, a little bit before, I mean, I don't know, mid 1800s.
47:54
OK, lasted until at least the 1950s.
48:00
OK so all woman gang so like she had set forth like these rules
48:07
that continue to work and stay in place for a long time for the
48:10
marrying. One the marrying 1.
48:12
Did that what did become a problem for folks but I also
48:15
understand the reason for setting down that rule.
48:18
But I just like how she was independent and she was like
48:21
cool if you 00 or if you died, which I don't there wasn't any
48:25
notice about anybody who died. But if you died in while working
48:29
or whatever, if you were part of the gang and you died, they
48:32
would take care of your family as well, not just if you were in
48:34
jail. So like there was like a
48:36
retirement process here too. So, you know, or you know, like
48:41
a bereavement, like your family, if you were part of this, your
48:44
family and your family was taken care of.
48:47
And I and I really kind of respect the I respect that.
48:52
And I understand why she had to do that.
48:55
She was born of a huge family and her dad had been a part of
48:59
the elephant mob, all of that. So like she really had choices.
49:04
She did. She had a few choices, but none
49:06
of them were going to be great. In all of the millions of
49:10
dollars of stuff that they stole in the 1,000,000, not one item
49:18
was recovered OK. They had a rule.
49:22
That if you stole it, you can't wear and it must be fenced
49:25
immediately. So like, did they steal jewels?
49:28
They'd steal jewels. Yes, jewels, Yes.
49:30
Oh, not like I. For a minute I got this
49:32
impression they were like shoplifting food.
49:35
Oh, no, no, no. No.
49:36
No, no, OK. They were like legit criminals.
49:38
Legit criminals. Yes, OK, so they're.
49:41
Stealing millions of. Dollars, but they never got
49:44
caught for it, which I think just as a testament, I mean,
49:48
they just wouldn't do it. But then they would also do
49:50
things. They had enough money where they
49:52
could legitimately go into these shops and buy stuff so that when
49:56
the police would say, hey, I don't trust you, they were like,
49:59
I have a receipt. Boom.
50:01
Because they. Didn't wear what they stole.
50:02
They just had a, it was a really smooth system and smooth
50:07
criminal, smooth criminals. It lasted a long time.
50:11
And you know, I feel like you were talking about the mob and I
50:14
said, do we even know if they're still going?
50:16
We wouldn't know because you don't talk about being a part of
50:19
something like the Illuminati. It's like the.
50:22
Illuminati, which Star Wars and the.
50:25
Illuminati come up a lot. They do they.
50:27
Do so. So that's my lady.
50:30
That's my favorite gangster, Alice Diamond.
50:32
Alice Diamond I. Had to do some research because
50:34
I wanted to find someone that kind of fit within the reasons I
50:38
think that maybe sometimes crime is sure.
50:42
The reasonable. Solution.
50:44
And I wanted to find a woman. It did.
50:46
I wanted to find a woman. It's obvious, actually.
50:49
Is it? Yes, so and I do want to just
50:52
put a little shout out to if anyone is wanting to learn more
50:56
about the 40 elephants, there is ATV show that is on one of the
51:04
streaming devices called 1000 blows.
51:09
And it's it's partly, I mean, like it's about that and it's
51:14
there's like a fictional relationship between one of the
51:19
Queens of the elephants and a famous boxer at the time.
51:23
But it's very fascinating if you want to see how, you know, it's
51:26
dramatized to be I but I really enjoyed it.
51:30
So it's Alice Diamond, who you now know all about.
51:34
Yeah. And you could learn even more.
51:36
Educated indeed. Or.
51:39
Lucky Luciano, right? Who you might have known before,
51:44
or at least known of. Through the movies sort of a
51:46
little bit, right? Right.
51:48
So that's the vote. That's what we're looking for.
51:51
No rebuttal allowed. Oh, do you want a rebut?
51:55
No, I was. Just messing with you, I thought
51:56
we were talking the whole time. Do you want a rebut?
52:01
Not necessarily. It's probably unnecessary, only
52:04
that it's sort of a given. I think if you're in a organized
52:08
crime situation like a gang or a mob, that there's the code of
52:12
secrecy has always been a thing and taking care of people and
52:16
families. Yeah, I will say though, I
52:20
really like the fact that everybody split equally.
52:23
It wasn't like there's one person who has all the power,
52:26
like, sure, you know Well, Alice had.
52:29
Power, but well, yeah, but. I mean, they all had to agree to
52:32
it, but the workers, Yeah, yeah. It's all good.
52:35
Yeah, I think it's great. So if you ever find yourself in
52:37
London, go to Elephant and Castle and you can take a a trip
52:42
down the lane and see if there's any remnants.
52:46
Because there might be. I have no idea.
52:48
Yeah. Watch your pockets.
52:50
You might get stolen from by some random woman and you won't
52:53
even know. Wow.
52:55
That's what I got. OK, that's.
52:57
Indeed, the argument there it is, and well.
52:59
Argued. All right.
53:01
Well, thank you everybody. What do they do now, Luke?
53:04
Now they. Vote yes.
53:07
Through the Spotify pool. And then, if you haven't
53:11
already, I want you to follow us.
53:14
Share us. With your friends and family and
53:17
people you don't like and rate US five stars more would be
53:23
great. I think 10 stars just.
53:25
All the stars, All the stars. Comment like if we are, if you
53:29
think there's somebody we should have talked about like this is
53:32
right now, I mean, I could change my mind.
53:35
Don't. Don't do that.
53:36
We don't have time for it, no. My point is.
53:40
Maybe there's somebody new we should learn about.
53:43
Yeah. And and that would be we do like
53:44
interaction. Let us know.
53:45
Yeah, yeah. And there you have it.
53:48
OK. See you next time.
53:49
Bye.