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The Tribble with Technology · Plausibly Live - The Dave Bowman Show Podcast

• 0:01
  Good morning Across America. I'm Alex Ross, and this is your
• 0:04
  Morning News update. The Environmental Protection
• 0:07
  Agency is expected to repeal federal limits on greenhouse gas
• 0:12
  emissions from coal and natural gas power plants.
• 0:15
  Administrator Lee Zeldin says the change would reduce
• 0:18
  compliance costs and improve energy production.
• 0:21
  Environmental organizations argue that it would increase
• 0:24
  emissions and weaken the government's ability to address
• 0:27
  climate change. Litigation is expected after the
• 0:30
  final action is published. President Trump has asked
• 0:34
  Ukraine to stop attacking Russian diesel facilities.
• 0:37
  Ukraine considers the facilities legitimate military targets.
• 0:41
  Trump says the strikes are contributing to international
• 0:44
  fuel shortages. North Korea says it tested an
• 0:48
  integrated weapon system involving missiles, artillery
• 0:52
  and drones. South Korea reported that
• 0:54
  several short range ballistic missiles travelled approximately
• 0:58
  250 kilometers. Amazon has suspended its use of
• 1:02
  21 Air, the cargo carrier operating the aircraft that
• 1:06
  overran a Miami runway on September 6th.
• 1:09
  Federal investigators have not determined the crashes probable
• 1:13
  cause. In sports, Buffalo defeated
• 1:16
  Houston 36 to 31 after Josh Allen completed a late 96 yard
• 1:22
  touchdown. Dr. Detroit edged New Orleans 31
• 1:25
  to 30, Philadelphia beat Washington 24 to 22 and the New
• 1:30
  York Giants defeated Dallas 28 to 20.
• 1:34
  For the On Air Across America network, I'm Alex Ross.
• 1:40
  The world is a complicated place.
• 1:43
  Fortunately, Dave Bowman has opinions, some informed, some
• 1:47
  inconvenient, and a few that may require supporting
• 1:50
  documentation, history, politics, and the absurdity of
• 1:54
  modern life. This is the Dave Bowman Show.
• 2:01
  Oh, good morning. Good evening or good?
• 2:03
  Afternoon, Wherever you are, whatever you do a lot of.
• 2:05
  Things happening in the world today, most of them are far
• 2:07
  beyond. Our control?
• 2:09
  You might. Say.
• 2:10
  So perhaps it's time. We took a pause and.
• 2:12
  Thought about life and thought about the laws of science
• 2:15
  fiction. What about flock cameras?
• 2:21
  Is that really a crime? And something called the
• 2:24
  Integrated National. Database don't touch those dial.
• 2:28
  Just try to hear me out for a little while.
• 2:31
  So back in the. 1980s 83 as I recall.
• 2:37
  But it may have been earlier than that.
• 2:40
  There was ATV show. On.
• 2:41
  The BBC, the BIEB called Yes Minister.
• 2:47
  You've heard me talk about this before.
• 2:50
  Yes, Minister, is a. Brilliant.
• 2:52
  Satire of politics. Particularly in Britain at the
• 2:56
  time, it was said. To have been Margaret Thatcher's
• 2:59
  favorite show. In fact, there are.
• 3:01
  Rumors amongst the fans that at certain points of the show,
• 3:04
  because it was filmed in front of a live audience, you can
• 3:07
  distinctly. Hear Margaret Thatcher's laugh.
• 3:11
  Don't know if that's. True or not but.
• 3:14
  It was one of her favorite shows and it was a brilliant.
• 3:16
  Satire of. Politics and politicians and
• 3:19
  government in general. If you want to understand.
• 3:21
  Dave Bowman if you want to. Understand why I think the way I
• 3:24
  do about politics and politicians.
• 3:27
  You must read and or watch. Yes, Minister.
• 3:31
  And its subsequent series. Yes, Prime Minister.
• 3:36
  In one of the early episodes, there is a debate.
• 3:39
  About something called the Integrated National.
• 3:41
  Database this is. A computer system.
• 3:45
  In which every Britain will have.
• 3:48
  All of their information stored and there are questions about
• 3:53
  who will have access to this and how they will get access to this
• 3:55
  and what happens if someone gets access to it and they're.
• 3:58
  Not authorized access to it. All of these kinds of questions.
• 4:03
  And because. There has been a change in the
• 4:04
  government. There has been, you know, a.
• 4:08
  A A party change, there is the. 3rd Opposition.
• 4:11
  Which is the civil service which are desperately trying to keep?
• 4:15
  Anybody from using anything, they, they, they don't want the
• 4:20
  civilian population to be able to inspect these records.
• 4:23
  They want to keep them and keep them to themselves and so forth
• 4:27
  and so on. It's a long story, but the,
• 4:28
  well, it's not a 22 minute story, but the bottom line is in
• 4:33
  the 1980s, they're arguing about government access.
• 4:38
  To to. Too much information about
• 4:41
  citizens because this integrated national database thing could
• 4:45
  be. Used to literally track people.
• 4:47
  Where did you go? What?
• 4:48
  What church did you worship at? What store do you?
• 4:51
  Shop at how much? Tax did you pay?
• 4:55
  Anything and everything and. It could be accessed by people.
• 4:59
  That did not have authorization to do this.
• 5:04
  That's in the 1980s. Now the interesting thing to me
• 5:08
  about the. Story is that there is a lot of
• 5:12
  hilarity. There's a lot of.
• 5:13
  Argument. There's a lot of.
• 5:15
  Maneuvering and in the end of the day, the problem is solved
• 5:19
  and they keep pushing forward with the integrated national
• 5:22
  database just now with quote UN quote safeguards and then they.
• 5:27
  Never talk about it. Again, in the entire series.
• 5:31
  So now let's jump to 2026. The city of San Jose, CA in the
• 5:38
  city. Of San Jose, CA there was a.
• 5:40
  Woman and I want to be. Clear about this before we say.
• 5:43
  Anything more OK this woman? Is a dirtbag this.
• 5:49
  Woman is a There is nothing sympathetic about this woman.
• 5:54
  Whatsoever if there ever was a person who deserved.
• 5:58
  To be taken outside and beaten with wet.
• 6:00
  Noodles. It's probably this.
• 6:02
  Woman, but that said, being an asshole is.
• 6:08
  Not a crime. You can chisel that in stone so
• 6:15
  this woman finds herself. Driving through the city.
• 6:20
  Of San Jose and she comes across a man.
• 6:24
  Who is apparently. A foreign born and he has a
• 6:28
  child and the woman repeatedly confronts this father with.
• 6:32
  His six year old daughter. And she makes.
• 6:34
  Racist accusations are you? Buying or selling?
• 6:38
  Today, she yells. Minds you a little bit of John
• 6:42
  Belushi and in The Blues Brothers, how much for?
• 6:45
  The little girl. That's not really what she's
• 6:47
  saying. What she's saying is.
• 6:49
  That. This Middle Eastern man.
• 6:52
  Because of the tropes. That the Middle Eastern people
• 6:56
  tend to sell their children. So she's.
• 6:58
  Accusing him of that and she. Also yells at.
• 7:00
  Him burn in hell you will kind of Yoda ish.
• 7:04
  Now the police end up responding to this hate motivated incident
• 7:09
  and they use. The ALP.
• 7:13
  Rs the automatic automated. License plate Reaser readers to
• 7:19
  track her. To identify her and to track
• 7:22
  her. Now the problem is, is it a?
• 7:27
  Crime to say something. Rude.
• 7:29
  And offensive to somebody, even in California.
• 7:34
  Her behavior is racist. Clearly it's irrational.
• 7:38
  It's undeniably frightening, but.
• 7:41
  Is it a? Crime.
• 7:46
  Is it constitutionally? Protected free speech.
• 7:51
  The question is not. Whether she behaved
• 7:53
  disgracefully, that. I mean, this woman is.
• 7:57
  Dirt. The question is whether
• 8:00
  disgraceful behavior. Justifies a government
• 8:03
  surveillance. Search in other words.
• 8:09
  She said something. Rude to this guy.
• 8:12
  Let us track her with the ALP Rs.
• 8:15
  And find her now. The story gets a little weird.
• 8:21
  From there, because she did in fact was in fact tracked and was
• 8:29
  in fact found. Now the problem.
• 8:32
  Is that of course. You're dealing with California,
• 8:36
  which has some. Absurd laws.
• 8:39
  Got a text yesterday from a listener about.
• 8:41
  One of those absurd. Laws.
• 8:43
  He's trying to ship a A. A present to a.
• 8:45
  A child in California and he can't.
• 8:47
  Amazon won't deliver it because. It violates California's.
• 8:50
  Ban on some kind. Of plastics, anyway.
• 8:53
  California does have some hate laws and hate.
• 8:56
  Stuff, but this did not rise to that level.
• 9:01
  Calling something hate motivated.
• 9:03
  Describes the motive. But not a crime.
• 9:07
  What suspected crime justified the use of ALPRS to?
• 9:13
  Discover where this woman was. I know we don't like it, but how
• 9:18
  often do we conservatives argue that there is no such thing as
• 9:21
  hate speech? That.
• 9:24
  It's constitutionally protected, just.
• 9:25
  Because you don't like. It doesn't mean that.
• 9:28
  It doesn't necessarily mean that you can, you know, just.
• 9:33
  Take off like that the the the questions.
• 9:38
  At this point in the. Story are unknown, police
• 9:41
  reports tell us. And again, we're.
• 9:43
  Operating off reports here tell us that.
• 9:45
  The police use the ALPR cameras to identify the victim and.
• 9:50
  They refer to her as the suspect.
• 9:54
  Do you understand what's happening here?
• 9:58
  We're not clear. I'm certainly not clear that at.
• 10:01
  This point of the story, any crime has been.
• 10:07
  Committed has a social faux pas. Been committed?
• 10:10
  Absolutely. But now the government is using
• 10:16
  surveillance cameras. ALPRS flock cameras to track.
• 10:21
  Someone suspected of being. Rude Who at this?
• 10:27
  Point had made. No threats, no hate crimes, none
• 10:32
  of that. The police did not explain have
• 10:36
  not explained whether they entered the complete license
• 10:39
  plate number partial. Plates or just a vehicle?
• 10:41
  Description Whether they obtained only registration
• 10:45
  information. Whether they searched historical
• 10:47
  location records? Whether?
• 10:49
  They used all this entire thing to find her current location.
• 10:52
  What? Level of authorization?
• 10:53
  Who said they could do this? Now?
• 10:57
  Those are very different uses of the exact.
• 11:00
  Same technology and we the public who not only are, you
• 11:04
  know. Subject to this surveillance,
• 11:09
  we, the public, also have a. Right to know.
• 11:11
  Because we're. Paying for it.
• 11:14
  All those answers at this point, what specific crime did the.
• 11:18
  Police believe occurred. That even justified the.
• 11:22
  Use of this. Now the problem of.
• 11:25
  Course goes deeper because. This woman, as it turns out, was
• 11:28
  something of a nut. She was she was a.
• 11:32
  Problem. And as it turns out, she was, in
• 11:38
  fact. Subject to some other issues,
• 11:42
  she has her. Family had.
• 11:44
  Reported her for mental health issues.
• 11:46
  She had been reported from several.
• 11:48
  Times in 2022 but again, just because someone is mentally ill
• 11:53
  does not mean that they have committed a crime, nor does it
• 11:57
  excuse criminal conduct unless. Dot dot dot.
• 12:02
  Well, you know. But it raises other concerns.
• 12:09
  Are these? Surveillance systems becoming
• 12:11
  gradually tools for finding people who are behaving.
• 12:14
  Strangely, irrationally or offensively even when people
• 12:18
  police. Cannot identify a crime.
• 12:20
  In other words, we're. Concerned about our mother?
• 12:23
  She's behaving. Irrationally, she's, you know,
• 12:27
  crazy. Can you use your flock cameras
• 12:31
  to find her even though no crime has been committed?
• 12:36
  These are questions that we don't have answers to yet.
• 12:42
  If the original. Contact was a crime and we're
• 12:44
  not convinced. I'm not convinced that it was.
• 12:47
  To be honest. With you California's hate crime
• 12:50
  status statute does not criminalize racist opinions
• 12:55
  alone. You can have a racist opinion if
• 12:57
  you want to that. Doesn't make it criminal.
• 13:00
  It generally requires force, threat of force, property
• 13:03
  damage, or interference. With someone's constitutional or
• 13:05
  legal rights. Because of a character protected
• 13:09
  characteristic. Now the argument goes.
• 13:12
  Well, she. Did say you will.
• 13:13
  Burn in hell you will. You know the Yoda's phrase, but
• 13:15
  that's not a threat no one would take.
• 13:19
  That as a threat. You have no way to make me.
• 13:21
  Burn in hell, that's. Between me and my deity.
• 13:25
  So this. Paradigm has shifted.
• 13:28
  If a crime occurs in Model A, we.
• 13:31
  Follow the evidence we. Identify the suspect and then we
• 13:34
  begin the surveillance. But now.
• 13:36
  We're using model B which is that we have this.
• 13:39
  Constant surveillance of public spaces.
• 13:41
  The excuse being that you have. No expectation of privacy.
• 13:44
  Great An incident occurs, an incident that may or may not be
• 13:49
  a crime. At that.
• 13:52
  Point The police went in and did a.
• 13:55
  Retroactive database search. To identify a suspect.
• 14:03
  In other. Words.
• 14:04
  The surveillance did not begin when you became a suspect.
• 14:08
  They didn't say well this. Person's a suspect, Let's get a
• 14:10
  warrant. Let's let's let's put.
• 14:12
  You know, let's let's. Start searching.
• 14:14
  Watching them? No, the surveillance has already
• 14:17
  happened. It's already been.
• 14:18
  Stored. It's already in the computer.
• 14:21
  It's. Already in the integrated.
• 14:22
  National Database and if you. Become a suspect somehow.
• 14:28
  That merely. Gives someone a reason to open
• 14:30
  the file. A hate.
• 14:32
  Incident is not necessarily. A hate crime?
• 14:35
  A hate incident can consist of prejudice but constitutionally
• 14:39
  protected expression. Calling something hate motivated
• 14:43
  describes a possible motivated motivation, but it does not
• 14:48
  establish the underlying criminal act.
• 14:51
  That justifies the search. Now, as it turns out, this woman
• 14:58
  has mental. Problems after they identified.
• 15:03
  Her. After they did this search, they
• 15:07
  discovered that the the local school district.
• 15:10
  Yet San Jose Unified Schools had warned families.
• 15:13
  About her because she was. Recording and photographing
• 15:17
  students, parents and staff on the sidewalks, I presume, where
• 15:20
  you know it's public. But she was.
• 15:23
  Posting those full recordings online Which?
• 15:25
  Could be an issue. Somehow she had entered a.
• 15:29
  School High school girls. Locker room and some nobody
• 15:34
  knows how she got in there. That's the part that's weird.
• 15:38
  And she had. Accused the physical education
• 15:40
  teacher of improper. Contact.
• 15:45
  What that means, we don't know. These.
• 15:47
  Allegations may involve actual. Crimes they could be, but.
• 15:52
  Critical facts here remain undisclosed.
• 15:54
  Was the. Locker room occupied.
• 15:56
  Was anyone in there undressed? Was anyone even in there?
• 15:59
  Had she been told? Previously to leave the
• 16:02
  property. And how did she obtain that
• 16:04
  access? That's a big.
• 16:05
  Question Is there a specific? Crime.
• 16:08
  That police believed occurred there and are these.
• 16:11
  School incidents part of the charge that they have now laid
• 16:15
  against her, which is stalking. Or are they separate?
• 16:19
  Allegations. KTVU.
• 16:24
  Reports that the woman had been reported missing by her.
• 16:26
  Family, we talked about that this.
• 16:28
  Mental illness does not necessarily.
• 16:30
  Excuse the the conduct. It raises more concerns.
• 16:37
  Are these ALPR? Systems.
• 16:39
  These flock camera systems. Gradually becoming tools for.
• 16:41
  Finding people. Or are they pre?
• 16:46
  Surveilling people who may. Become suspects for crimes.
• 16:52
  The ALPR system is doing what is essentially collecting evidence
• 16:57
  first. This is very.
• 16:59
  Stalinistic, Show me the man, I'll show you the.
• 17:01
  Crime. It records ordinary people
• 17:04
  driving through public. Spaces and saves those
• 17:06
  observations. For future possible searches.
• 17:10
  Now, the argument goes, you don't have an expectation of
• 17:12
  privacy in public. Granted.
• 17:17
  But does the. Government have a right then to.
• 17:19
  Search your actions post hoc. Post a post haste.
• 17:25
  And determine if maybe you were doing something they don't like.
• 17:31
  A single camera could reveal very.
• 17:33
  Little. Obviously, I mean, I have a
• 17:35
  camera on my front door. I don't see much.
• 17:38
  I see me coming and going, my wife coming and going, my son
• 17:40
  coming and going, and occasionally the Amazon man who
• 17:43
  drops things off. But hundreds of observations
• 17:48
  could provide further information.
• 17:50
  Much like the integrated database of the of the Yes
• 17:53
  minister show it could tell you where.
• 17:56
  Someone lives. It could tell you where they
• 17:59
  work. It could tell you which clinic
• 18:01
  or doctor they visit, could tell you what church they go to or
• 18:03
  where they worship. It could tell you what
• 18:06
  political. Meetings or demonstrations they
• 18:08
  attended and it. Could reveal your associations.
• 18:14
  The government no longer needs to begin watching you after
• 18:17
  suspicion develops. It can look backward through
• 18:19
  information it has already collected.
• 18:23
  Before anyone. Suspects you of anything that's
• 18:26
  a real problem. Now.
• 18:30
  At the virtually. The same time.
• 18:32
  Whoops, I'm looking. At the wrong slide there.
• 18:34
  At virtually the. Same time that this story was
• 18:37
  going on, the San Jose police disclosed an actual.
• 18:41
  Abuse of their flock. License system.
• 18:43
  They fired. An officer after determining
• 18:47
  that that he had improperly. Searched the database for the.
• 18:49
  Location of a domestic violence victim.
• 18:55
  He was able to access. The system find where the victim
• 18:59
  was and pass that information on to his cousin who happened to be
• 19:04
  the man abusing her. Now again you say to me, well,
• 19:07
  we got to punish that. He's he's been fired.
• 19:11
  It doesn't undo what was done. Because what was done was able
• 19:15
  to be. Done.
• 19:16
  And if something's. Able to be done.
• 19:18
  Believe me, it's going to be done.
• 19:19
  Again. Some searches were reported.
• 19:25
  Some of these searches. Were reportedly.
• 19:26
  Conducted from his personal. Device He was able to access the
• 19:31
  flock. Cameras on his personal.
• 19:34
  Device. Now the department says that it
• 19:37
  has now. Restricted.
• 19:40
  Personal device access and strengthen its audit auditing.
• 19:43
  Procedures, but again. You can argue.
• 19:48
  You're worrying. About something that might.
• 19:50
  Never happen. But it has happened and it
• 19:52
  happened within the same. Exact department, The original.
• 19:58
  Arguments of this stuff. Is mission creep if?
• 20:04
  If all you're using flock cameras for us to find stolen.
• 20:06
  Vehicles locate abducted. Children apprehend neighbor
• 20:09
  fugitives. Great, But we have a.
• 20:14
  Case here where a non criminal hate motivated incident.
• 20:18
  Justified a database search. Where does that end?
• 20:23
  Where does that mission creep end?
• 20:25
  And yes, it turns out that the woman had issues and may have
• 20:28
  committed other crimes and she was developed into a suspect
• 20:31
  because of that. But again, we didn't.
• 20:34
  Start with that. We didn't start with.
• 20:35
  Oh. We think someone did this crime.
• 20:37
  Let's find out who did it. We started with, oh, we have
• 20:39
  this. Person behaving strangely?
• 20:41
  Let's find out. Where she has.
• 20:43
  Been and if you can do. That for this, why can't you do
• 20:49
  it for a person? Displaying an extremist.
• 20:51
  Political sign A. Parent recording outside a
• 20:55
  school board meeting. All you people that are saying
• 20:57
  now it's OK. Wasn't that long ago, remember?
• 21:00
  When moms. For liberty and other PTA type
• 21:03
  groups were. Were being labeled as
• 21:05
  extremists. What if you?
• 21:07
  Participate in a protest against abortion or a gun rights rally.
• 21:12
  Or if you worship. At a controversial religious
• 21:15
  institution. Or a journalist.
• 21:17
  Meeting a confidential source, any of those questions become
• 21:25
  problematic, don't they? The issue isn't process or
• 21:29
  possessing the technology, The technologies here the genius out
• 21:32
  of the bottle. It's enforcing the limits.
• 21:35
  And we have to start with authorization searches.
• 21:38
  Must be tied to a documented investigation of a specific
• 21:41
  crime. In other words, they should
• 21:42
  never have been. Able to search this.
• 21:44
  System for someone who said something that we didn't like.
• 21:49
  There have to be. Short retention.
• 21:51
  Periods for vehicles. Completely, they need to the
• 21:53
  idea that they can just. Store this stuff forever I.
• 21:59
  Technically, maybe they can't. Maybe.
• 22:01
  Maybe there's some? Technical issues that are.
• 22:02
  Going to say, well, we can only store so much of it, you know,
• 22:04
  like like the body cams, well, we can only store so much but.
• 22:12
  Data centers are coming. There needs to be accountability
• 22:17
  and there needs. To be protection, explicit
• 22:19
  protections for political, religious.
• 22:20
  Journalistic and 1st Amendment activities and none of these
• 22:24
  seem. To exist at this.
• 22:26
  Point. Are there serious penalties for
• 22:30
  this stuff? Are there?
• 22:34
  I'm not convinced that there. Are oh we?
• 22:37
  Fired him And where is he now? And how do you stop it from
• 22:44
  happening in the first place? Look, this woman is not a civil.
• 22:48
  Rights martyr, and I want to be clear about that.
• 22:51
  She is not a she is not someone that we're going to celebrate.
• 22:55
  Here at all but the available facts.
• 22:58
  To us, do not justify the conclusion.
• 23:01
  That her conduct was. Criminal and therefore justified
• 23:04
  using Flock. Cameras to search about her.
• 23:09
  Granted they. Uncovered some other disturbing
• 23:11
  things about her that may be. Criminal.
• 23:14
  But they didn't. Start with that.
• 23:17
  The government should. Have to identify the suspect.
• 23:20
  And the crime before? Well, they should have to be
• 23:23
  able to. Identify the crime anyway before
• 23:26
  searching in the surveillance records.
• 23:27
  Not identify. The person first.
• 23:29
  And then? Search for a crime afterwards.
• 23:33
  It's very. Stalinistic.
• 23:36
  I'm not defending her, the accusations against her.
• 23:39
  I'm not. I'm not saying that this woman
• 23:41
  deserves anything. I'm defending the boundary line
• 23:45
  between offensive behavior and criminal conduct.
• 23:52
  If the public outrage. Is enough to open the
• 23:54
  government's records of our movements.
• 23:55
  And then that boundary has already begun to disappear.
• 23:58
  What if, what if the people get mad and the government says,
• 24:01
  well, we'll find out what that person's been doing?
• 24:04
  Today, the target is. Someone who almost nobody wants
• 24:06
  to defend, but the cameras will still be there when it's someone
• 24:12
  we do want to defend. I'm not absolutely sure how this
• 24:59
  happened. Yesterday, but somehow or
• 25:01
  another I got into. A discussion about.
• 25:04
  Star Trek, The Motion Picture and the person I was discussing
• 25:09
  it with. Was was.
• 25:11
  Adamant. We we were both agreed that *.
• 25:14
  Trek The Motion Picture is the most.
• 25:17
  Pure Star Trek film. There is I I realize a lot of
• 25:20
  people don't like it. I realize a lot of people think
• 25:22
  it's too. Slow too thinking, but keep in
• 25:25
  mind that the. Original Star Trek episode The
• 25:28
  Cage was rejected by NBC because of that same reason.
• 25:32
  It was too cerebral. It requires.
• 25:35
  People to think, viewers to think, you know, 1966, they
• 25:39
  didn't want that. The the truth is, they didn't
• 25:42
  reject it because it was too cerebral.
• 25:43
  They rejected it because it was too titillating.
• 25:48
  Not kidding, they the. The real reason they rejected
• 25:51
  the original Star Trek pilot was because it was far too
• 25:55
  suggestive for. 1966 In fact, there's a scene in there where.
• 25:59
  One of the very. Beautiful Yeoman colt.
• 26:02
  The the the the keeper's talking.
• 26:04
  About her and he. Says she has highly unusually
• 26:08
  high female drives and even her character reacts she she's
• 26:14
  clearly. Embarrassed and.
• 26:17
  The whole idea here was that the zoo.
• 26:20
  And Captain Pike was going to have to, you know, father a
• 26:24
  nation, basically. And so there was a lot of a.
• 26:27
  Lot of concern about that so but their excuse was it was too
• 26:31
  cerebral. And and that's the complaint
• 26:33
  about Star Trek The Motion Picture.
• 26:35
  Sorry I'm losing my voice here. Is that it's too slow.
• 26:40
  And in an era. When Star Wars, Battlestar
• 26:42
  Galactica, all those things were.
• 26:44
  Happening, you know, everybody was used as you know, cowboy
• 26:46
  movies in space. Shoot them up, blow them up.
• 26:48
  Nobody wanted to think about things.
• 26:50
  Star Trek The Motion Picture. Though is Star Trek the way?
• 26:53
  Gene Roddenberry wanted it. You don't have.
• 26:57
  To like the film. I don't really care 'cause I do
• 26:59
  like the. Film and that's that's enough.
• 27:03
  In fact, I I like the film so much that when they re.
• 27:05
  Released the director's cut was the last year year before I.
• 27:08
  Remember, I went and saw it on the big screen again, 'cause I
• 27:12
  love that film. But there is a problem with the
• 27:18
  film. And the.
• 27:19
  Problem is this catastrophic failure of the.
• 27:23
  Transporter. And that's what this person was.
• 27:24
  Upset about If you recall, there is a very.
• 27:27
  Jarring scene in the film. Where two people are killed and
• 27:33
  it is. Often.
• 27:34
  Talked about as the. The most jarring?
• 27:39
  Just disturbing death. In all of Star.
• 27:41
  Trek history. I'm not.
• 27:42
  Sure it is. I think that Yeoman on the
• 27:45
  planet with the with the guys from Andromeda and the cubes I
• 27:49
  that one kind of. Bugged people too, but.
• 27:51
  This one is the. One that really, really kind of
• 27:54
  gets people because it's on. The big screen, the.
• 27:57
  The people appear on the. The platform as they're beaming
• 28:01
  up the enterprise. It's clearly going wrong.
• 28:03
  They lose the buffer and the the the line is Starfleet.
• 28:10
  Do you have them? And Starfleet responds.
• 28:13
  Enterprise, what we got back? Didn't live long fortunately,
• 28:18
  and we cut. Away to Kirk.
• 28:20
  Who? Who?
• 28:21
  Looks stunned, but we really don't have much of an
• 28:25
  explanation of this whole thing. Now the truth is.
• 28:29
  We needed to get rid of Commander Sonak from a
• 28:33
  storytelling standpoint. Because Spock was coming back.
• 28:36
  When they put Sonak in the movie, they didn't know that
• 28:39
  Leonard Nimoy was going to be in it, so they had to get him out
• 28:43
  of the way to create a science officer vacancy so that Spock
• 28:47
  could come back. In the movie, if you kill Sonak,
• 28:51
  the position of science officer becomes vacant, even Kirk says.
• 28:58
  I still like. To have a Vulcan there but.
• 29:02
  Sonak didn't really have to die, did he?
• 29:07
  Enterprise was trying to leave before it was.
• 29:09
  Ready. And that's the.
• 29:10
  Key here. Sonak could have simply.
• 29:12
  Failed to arrive. He could have been injured, he
• 29:14
  could have been. Reassigned, Spock could have
• 29:17
  superseded. Him, you know, because of his
• 29:19
  unique connection to Vedure. Any of those things but killing
• 29:23
  Sonak. Solves A screenplay problem, but
• 29:27
  there were much easier ways to solve it.
• 29:30
  The the problem is the enterprise.
• 29:32
  Is flat out dangerous at this point.
• 29:34
  And this is, this is something I, I think even when I saw it in
• 29:37
  1970. 9 The original time. I sensed, but I didn't really
• 29:41
  understand. This is a film that on so many
• 29:45
  levels, makes you think. When I was in the Navy, we.
• 29:49
  We took a class. Called Lmet, Leadership
• 29:51
  Management Education and Training, and one of the films
• 29:54
  that we watched in that class was this film called. 12:00
• 29:58
  high. Which demonstrates.
• 30:00
  How to build leadership? And then, interestingly enough,
• 30:04
  they. Stop halfway through the.
• 30:05
  Movie and they say OK, well that's.
• 30:06
  Great, that's the lesson. But if you watch the rest of the
• 30:09
  movie. It's about how leadership.
• 30:10
  Goes wrong and. This is a.
• 30:14
  This is a reversal of that. This is Star Trek.
• 30:17
  Telling us the same story in reverse.
• 30:19
  It's how leadership goes wrong to correcting.
• 30:23
  Itself and how it. Goes right, the enterprise is
• 30:27
  flat out. Dangerous.
• 30:28
  At this point, Kirk has essentially forced his way back
• 30:31
  into. The command of the enterprise.
• 30:33
  Gosh, I doubt it was that easy with.
• 30:35
  Nomura, you're right, but the enterprise isn't the enterprise.
• 30:39
  It's not the ship that he knows. The ship has been radically
• 30:42
  refitted. Decker understands it better.
• 30:44
  Than Kirk does. Systems are not complete, crew
• 30:47
  is still being trained and. Kirk still wants he's.
• 30:51
  Pushing to launch the ship immediately and that.
• 30:56
  Push kills two people shortly after that.
• 31:04
  He pushes even harder and the warp Dr. malfunction.
• 31:07
  Nearly destroys the enterprise. It's only.
• 31:10
  Decker, who's familiarity with the ship enables him to actually
• 31:14
  save the ship. The transporter accident.
• 31:17
  Could be read as the. First, warning that Kirk's
• 31:20
  confidence in himself is running is is outrunning his knowledge.
• 31:24
  He's bullying his way through things and he's not paying
• 31:27
  attention to what his subordinates are trying to tell
• 31:29
  him. This is not ready.
• 31:32
  This isn't just the. Triumph return.
• 31:33
  Triumphant return. Of Captain Kirk to the bridge.
• 31:36
  There's consequences to him trying to get this ship back,
• 31:39
  and that's what makes that scene with McCoy so much more
• 31:42
  poignant, doesn't it? The scene itself is very
• 31:47
  disturbing. The scene.
• 31:48
  Itself is very problematic. It's.
• 31:54
  It it's jarring the way it was filmed, and that's unfortunate.
• 31:57
  Even the directors will. Tell you that.
• 32:00
  It wasn't filmed. Correctly, it wasn't.
• 32:01
  Put into the story. Correctly.
• 32:04
  The scene contains no. Visual.
• 32:07
  Gore, you're not getting blood and stuff.
• 32:09
  You're just getting physical. Distortions and you're getting.
• 32:13
  A lot of weird. Sounds and the horror of the
• 32:17
  Thing hinges on that single word that comes back from.
• 32:19
  Star Trek. Starfleet.
• 32:20
  Command. Sorry.
• 32:22
  Where they say. Fortunately, meaning it it.
• 32:27
  It was horrible and it. Forces the audience to
• 32:30
  conceptualize an existence so agonizing, so warped.
• 32:34
  That rapid. Death is considered a mercy,
• 32:36
  making the scene infinitely more disturbing than visually.
• 32:41
  It could have been made now the. Question comes in and this is
• 32:47
  something that they didn't answer in the film.
• 32:51
  We obviously know that it's Commander Sonak who is beaming
• 32:54
  up. As well.
• 32:55
  But who is the other person? Who is that?
• 32:59
  Anybody know? Well, as it turns out, there are
• 33:04
  multiple answers. To that question.
• 33:09
  She's not identified in the movie, but Gene Roddenberry
• 33:12
  would later. Identify her as Laurie Siena,
• 33:14
  who's a vice. Admiral and a navigator.
• 33:16
  She's coming aboard to be the navigator, and she's not some
• 33:20
  just random officer. She is, in fact, Kirk's
• 33:26
  Paramore, the person he's been with in the in the in the, what,
• 33:29
  18 months? Whatever it is that he's been
• 33:31
  behind a Starfleet desk, they've been having an ongoing love.
• 33:35
  Not affair because. It's not an affair, but.
• 33:38
  This is the person he has. Attached himself to.
• 33:41
  And that is his, for all practical purposes, his, his
• 33:45
  wife, his. Lover.
• 33:46
  And that's who that woman is in that scene.
• 33:50
  And so Kirk because of his own. Drive because of his.
• 33:54
  Own a. We got to get.
• 33:56
  This done because we he's pushing too hard.
• 33:59
  It's not ready doesn't just kill Sonak.
• 34:03
  His his impetuousness kills his lover, and that could.
• 34:10
  Explain you know his reaction to it the the stunned look that.
• 34:13
  He has as. But again, the movie doesn't
• 34:16
  give us this information. If it was part.
• 34:19
  Of the intended emotional. Weight.
• 34:21
  Why remove it? From the from the film, I don't
• 34:24
  know. We know.
• 34:26
  That she was also supposed. To be the navigator, which again
• 34:32
  this could. Be a we need to get rid of.
• 34:36
  Sonak so that Spock could come in.
• 34:38
  We need to get rid of the navigator so that Ilia could
• 34:40
  come in. And that's kind of what we kind
• 34:45
  of what we've done here. Commander Sonak.
• 34:47
  Dies the space. The science station is.
• 34:49
  Vacant Spock arrives this. Unnamed woman in the film who we
• 34:52
  happen to know now is. Is Kirk's.
• 34:55
  Paramore dies, she's also navigator and Ilia comes in and.
• 35:01
  Part of the problem is of course, that this is.
• 35:04
  Not. Really.
• 35:05
  Put out in the film, it's not really explained in the film and
• 35:08
  this has caused many people to say, well, that that scene
• 35:10
  should be cut. Because it's it's just too
• 35:12
  disturbing. But it really.
• 35:14
  Isn't it? Really is part of what tells the
• 35:18
  real story here, which is that Kirk has to grow.
• 35:20
  Back into being a leader. If we left that out, we don't
• 35:28
  really see Kirk's hubris and its results.
• 35:30
  We don't really see what he causes by by doing.
• 35:35
  This. And it's.
• 35:38
  It's kind of interesting because, you know, we always
• 35:40
  joke about Doctor McCoy and the fact that he.
• 35:43
  Hates the transporters. And yet it turns out that he
• 35:46
  might have been the most, he might have been the smart 1.
• 35:49
  I don't want to get in that transporter.
• 35:50
  I don't want no, it's it's got him.
• 35:57
  Kind of upset about. Things and.
• 35:59
  Of course, as as it turns out, he much like Doctor Boyce.
• 36:04
  In the cage, he. Plays the bartender, he plays
• 36:06
  the psychiatrist, and he talks to Kirk about, hey, you're
• 36:09
  pushing. Too.
• 36:10
  Hard your. People know their jobs.
• 36:15
  By the end of the film, what do we get?
• 36:18
  We get a Kirk. That has.
• 36:21
  Learned again how to lead, which is letting.
• 36:24
  His people. Do things.
• 36:27
  Instead of trying to push for the impossible, he gets the.
• 36:30
  Impossible because he allows people to grow.
• 36:33
  And he allows people to mature and he allows people to become.
• 36:36
  What they should be? And I just think that's
• 36:39
  magnificent. I really do.
• 36:40
  I The more I thought about this overnight, the more I started
• 36:43
  realizing. Wait, there's more to?
• 36:45
  This. Than that it's not just a a film
• 36:49
  maker's. Plot to get rid of two people so
• 36:52
  that he. Could bring in, you know, other
• 36:53
  people. This is really.
• 36:56
  A lesson, and it's unfortunate that it didn't make.
• 36:59
  The the actual director's cut of the.
• 37:02
  Film it. It is in the novelizations, and
• 37:04
  it is. Actually in the script.
• 37:05
  It's just not in there so. But it is, it's a great idea.
• 37:10
  It's a great example as I said. Of managing leadership, because
• 37:14
  leadership matters, folks. Leadership is important.
• 37:19
  And it's a lesson that I if I were teaching LMET today, I
• 37:22
  would use that film, not 12:00 high.
• 37:25
  Hey, take the time right now. Tell the people that matter in
• 37:27
  your life you love. Them very much.
• 37:28
  You'd miss them if they weren't there, so don't.
• 37:30
  Pass up those opportunities. You don't want to have that
• 37:32
  regret plausibly live. I'm Dave Bowman.
• 37:34
  Don't forget you can text the show 209565, Dave 209-565-3283.
• 37:40
  E-mail Dave at the Dave Bowman Show.
• 37:42
  Dot com we'll see you tomorrow for Dave does.
• 37:45
  History on Bill Mick Live.