Latest / Stronger Business Together / E21 Improve your Hiring Rate with Holly Siddall
Transcript
- Granger Forson: Thank you for spending your time with us today. We're on a mission to make business owners stronger together. If this conversation has helped you, please like, comment, and follow on whatever platform you're listening to. So this is the Stronger Business Together podcast where owners learn from each other, no theory, no gurus, just real journeys and overcoming real hurdles. Today I'm joined by Holly Sivel who runs ILEX Accounting Services and like any business owner she's in that middle of building things, fixing things and growing something that really matters to her. So Holly, welcome. About 60 % of our audience haven't done that yet, and these small actions will help us reach more business owners just like you. you want to join in the conversation as a guest, or if you have a hurdle question for us to tackle, then reach out to us at info at Holly Siddall: Hi, nice to see you. Granger Forson: Pleasure and you and I know each other through networking so that's how we've come together on the podcast so really excited to have you on board. So let's do act one now, your business. we can probably guess from the title but you know in plain English what does your business do? ⁓ ⁓ make this week successful, and ⁓ we'll see you time. ⁓ Cheers. ⁓ Holly Siddall: Accountancy services. Yeah, all things accountancy related. So that can be the annual accounts, corporation tax returns, personal tax returns, bookkeeping, CIS, payroll, VAT, tax planning, management accounts. Yeah, the list goes on. Granger Forson: Brilliant. that be a whole range of people that need those type of services. ⁓ So do you love helping and what are they typically dealing with? Holly Siddall: mainly small businesses, either startup companies, one-man bands, with a couple of directors, really variety. ⁓ We've clients that have got millions of pounds worth of turnover, but the majority of our clients will be small medium-sized businesses. And I get the best return from those. I get the best reward, which is just satisfaction. That's the bit that I work for. I just want to do the job to be satisfied, the client's happy and they're... tax efficient as best they can be. Granger Forson: Fantastic. And would the business owner, want to then knocking on your door and need that help? Holly Siddall: mainly peace of mind. think a lot of people find nowadays that the tax legislation changes. HMRC is topic of conversation for most business owners. So for me, it's been giving people the reassurance that using a professional will allow them to sleep at night. I get that comment quite a lot. yeah, allowing people to sleep at night, get on with what they can do, what they do properly, their profession, allow us to do the tax side of things. and stay all legal and above board. Granger Forson: Excellent, yeah, no, that's really good. That's such an important thing, peace of mind a business owner, especially around the tax man. So us, when did the business start? What was that original spark? Holly Siddall: Okay so this one's great and you know this Granger because I would have mentioned this before so it's um it was many many moons ago I well 18 19 20 years ago okay and I started as a bookkeeper and I loved bookkeeping I used to go in and sit with clients go into their offices update their books on a weekly monthly basis really enjoyed it but found that actually the clients didn't get on very well with their accountants And ⁓ after a very unpleasant conversation with an accountant in their office one day, where I was shuffled out into reception and told I was just the bookkeeper and they weren't sure why I was here, I decided rather than complain, I would go and do ACCA, my qualification, and I would become an accountant myself and treat clients better than that client was being treated by their accountant. So it kind of started really from bookkeeping up. And I've never looked back. I've enjoyed every minute of it. It's been brilliant. Well, not every minute of it. There's been moments, but most of time it's brilliant. Let's be honest. Granger Forson: Yes, yes, So when did you, when did iLex then start up? When was that? Holly Siddall: 2007, so yeah coming up for 19 years now so it's been a long time. Last year we celebrated being able to drink alcohol, not sure how a company can drink alcohol but its owner definitely could. So yeah so we've had some milestones along the way and it's shaped itself in lots of different fashions but now it's been a comfortable growing practice for the last eight or nine years now. based in Maysmoor, beautiful new office that we've got and yeah we're enjoying it. We've got a cracking team and a lot of them have been with me for a long long time. lot of them I think are ⁓ like they're never going to be able to retire. Granger Forson: how big is the team now? Holly Siddall: Nine of us in total. yeah, nine of us mostly, a combination of in-house ⁓ the office, so office-based staff ⁓ ⁓ staff, both the UK and outside of the UK. We actually have our back office managed by a lady in the Philippines. And she'd been me for two and a half years now and she's super organized. And as you can imagine, ⁓ in the world accountancy, back office is really quite... Yeah, nitty gritty. There's lots of paperwork, though a lot of it's electronic nowadays. And she manages all of that from the Philippines for us. So was a great new addition to the team two years ago. ⁓ And there's nine in total, hoping to be 10 at some point. Granger Forson: Fantastic. So why do customers, pick you? ⁓ How do delight them? Why do they keep coming back? Holly Siddall: We get a lot of recommendations. sometimes difficult to remember which client came from where. I try and keep a little bit of ⁓ track record, like a recommendation list. But got clients that have come to us from other clients who've then introduced family ⁓ and web gets bigger and bigger. So there's been a large amount of recommendation, which I'm super proud of because that's the cheapest way to build your business is just to do a good job. And naturally that will mean that more clients will come to you. ⁓ But more recently I've done some work on social media and SEO. So that's brought clients forward. Lots of great reviews on our website. reviews, they're always really good. But of the time clients will say, ⁓ we've been recommended to you because you're going to make me sleep at night or you're going help me to get rid of this problem that I've got or ⁓ I don't when I need to pay tax. I'm paying too much. everybody thinks they're paying too much tax. So yeah, so that's our role is to kind of take them on board and make them feel a bit better about what they have to do. At the end of the day, I'm a tax collector. I don't like thinking that that's my job, but if I can make the person who I'm working for feel more at ease, then that's my delight. That's what I like to do for people, pay the right amount of tax and pay it within time, feeling in control. Granger Forson: Lovely, yes. I really like that and understanding of that ⁓ that we all have to feel comfortable with the right amount of tax that we should pay. Yes, because everyone's arguing about it and looking for ways, aren't they? But anyway, tell me about a success that you're really proud of. Holly Siddall: Yeah. ⁓ gosh, there's been so many. particular success which started as a not a particularly nice ⁓ initial ⁓ introduction, a gentleman to me, lovely guy, and he said, I'm really behind with my property income, declaring it on my tax return. Actually really behind was an understatement. He basically never declared any of that. and he had his tail between his legs. He felt terrible. He'd been caught by the revenue and he needed that support from someone who was going to pick him up and help him solve the problem, deal with the revenue, get as low a penalty regime as we could go for and just really deal with it in a professional manner. Now that was for three or four years ago now and he's remained with me as a client and every year we have a little giggle about how horrendous it was that he'd left all of these taxes and gradually paying it off. He's got a very good payment plan and we've actually got a really good outcome from it. ⁓ I feel that that's really satisfying because the clients still see me every year. They're doing their taxes on time. They don't understand why they never got me in the first place. And really a success story for the fact that he had as low penalties as he possibly could have gone with. And he now that it's not. It's not something that he's got to look over his shoulder for. It's all being declared. And that's been really rewarding. So it's not just the nice clients that come forward and say, I've got a set of accounts that I need doing, or I'm starting a new business. There are some horror stories that we also take on, which some of our accountants may not want to touch. And in that case, this one was particularly rewarding. yeah, I got to work with the client really closely. was really, I really enjoyed it. Granger Forson: Fantastic. Beautiful story and a lovely way to show that what you're about is drilling down into those difficult ones but caring about the individual so they can get the success that they need. I don't say the word want because as I said we always want a different outcome with tax but there's a definite need that we have to sort out. Brilliant. So what are you aiming for for iLex to be like in the next 12 months and why? Holly Siddall: I think we're still settling into the new office. We've got lots of space. got a beautiful big meeting room, which we're starting to encourage our clients to come and use when not using it. I would to see growth. Every year I to try and grow the business. Ideally not too much I like to grow in an organic fashion as best I can and at the speed of team. I'd like to add the additional staff member number 10. we are in need of and it is a struggle at the moment. It's been a struggle to find somebody. But with that additional person, then the next stage of growth can come forward. But we've got the space, we've got the systems, it's all there, ready to take to the next level. And I'm quite satisfied with the growth we've had recently, but you know, a little bit more or same again for this year would be superb. Keeps me happy, keeps me occupied. Granger Forson: lovely lovely lovely i can really see that You and I have been networking for a while and have seen what you've done and achieved. So yeah, I can definitely see how that will happen with that steady growth coming forward. So let's move on to act two now, the journey, how you became who you are today. So running a business over the last few years, there are always highs and lows. What have been some of the highs and lows for you? Holly Siddall: Well, HICE is nice and easy, meeting certain targets in turnover, networking. I a rotarian and that's opened my eyes to of charity work, which has been wonderful. The business has to a stage where I can step away and do a little bit of extra work outside. So whether it be as a rotarian, ⁓ I'm a trustee Chanwell Centre. So that's been really nice. That's very rewarding to be able to think that you can take time out of work to be able to do things like that. yeah, I think that ⁓ new office has been an absolute delight. I mean, I have to mention the ducks ⁓ otherwise Katie will be furious with me. But moved to the office. It's given the staff kind of ⁓ a breath fresh air, literally, because we're in the countryside. So to be able to get the business to a stage where it can afford to take on such a nice office in such a lovely location, I think is a great reward. And even if it makes Katie happy because she gets to go and see the ducks on the pond every lunchtime, that's great. I'm making my staff, I'm making my team happy. That's wonderful. The lows. don't really know whether we've had much in the way of lows. I've had lows over the years, but ⁓ the last two or three years, we've not had very many. We've had a few clients that might have to leave, mainly because they're pushed. ⁓ they don't fit with my ways and I don't like the way that they do business anymore, they get shuffled along. That's not pleasant. I I always think I can make somebody better and help them be better within themselves and within their business. And that doesn't always work. And I do feel like sometimes, it's a bit of a failure. But other than that, everything seemed to have gone really well. Granger Forson: you Holly Siddall: There's been highs and lows in the past, as I say, but really, realistically, recently, everything's been going swimmingly. Other than staff, let's just say, recruitment's been very difficult. The team I've got are absolutely superb. I'd love a cloning machine. I'd like to clone them all. like many, many, many Katie's and Sarah's and Jackie's and Liz's and Lou's and everyone. I'd like to clone them all. ⁓ we are recruiting, and that's a problem at the moment, ⁓ is Granger Forson: Yeah, and that's gonna be our ⁓ discussions in hurdle round. you have to decisions in businesses. Sometimes they're gambles, sometimes we've got some understanding of what do. But what's ⁓ one or two that you've made over the years that have changed the trajectory of your business? Holly Siddall: Probably software related. adopting softwares within the company has always been a challenge, but it's us more efficient, ⁓ us paperless. was one of the first hurdles many years ago. Getting all our onto different softwares like QuickBooks and Xero, that's always a challenge. ⁓ But the main for me was my CRM system. So eight years ago, introducing a client portal was... quite new and unheard of, quite new, let's just say that. It wasn't unheard of, but it was very new to the market, the one that I adopted. And that's allowed us to do our workflow. And really that's allowed us to be able to grow as efficiently as we have. So systems is something I'm super proud of. I love systems. And it just things like emails, being able to file everything, the staff being able to see. the conversations that have been had outside of the office between clients and staff members and having that access at your fingertips no matter what time of the day or night you're working, you can see what's been happening behind the scenes. it's great. Systems has been a huge achievement. Granger Forson: Fantastic. Yeah, really can see that and understand how getting the right type of technology and system control can actually help any business. And you've just demonstrated that beautifully. Thank you for that share. mean, leads are really important in any business. Leads then potentially turn into sales opportunities after that. But what's one lead gen approach that's maybe surprised you, either good or bad? Holly Siddall: ⁓ ⁓ whilst being part of the BNI network, I ⁓ a guy, who Granger, know, ⁓ and runs an SEO business. ⁓ And dabbled in it previously, many moons ago, but we decided we would invest in some SEO. And we ⁓ weren't getting many leads off of our website. And the SEO within three months, we noticed an increase. I thought, ⁓ this is good. Quite impressed by this. Six months, nine months, it's just constant. The leads coming through from the website are now three or four a week. ⁓ overtaken ⁓ of mouth. It's overtaken any responses we get from social media. It's a superb success story, a great investment. and shocked me. Granger Forson: Wow, brilliant, yes. for all those people out there, that's John at SEO results. So yeah, fantastic. ⁓ And probably what you've maybe sold over the years. ⁓ You've ⁓ in things, changed things. ⁓ What's changed in your product range over the years? Holly Siddall: The odd few things, but obviously the basics are still there, but people tend to want more management accounts now. They want to keep an eye on their bottom line. They want their finger on the pulse, as they say. They want to know how much their tax is going to be at the end of the year rather than having a ⁓ shock. So we are doing a lot more management accounts for clients. doing a lot of training at the moment. We've got making tax digital for ITSA, which is the self-employed people having to go on to software. And we did have a handful of clients that still weren't on software. So there's been a good chunk of additional work needed to do there, which again is training. And that's not something we are offered initially because we used to actually do the bookkeeping ourselves. Clients want to be more self-sufficient nowadays. And it saves them money, obviously. If they can do it themselves or ask one of their family members to do the work for them, then it does cut the cost down. So yeah, there's been a few little additions that have been added on. Granger Forson: And get under ⁓ There times ⁓ within accounting practice, the infamous January period, where the really piles on. ⁓ What do do within the business to keep the business healthy and the team focused and working together? Holly Siddall: During our busy period, tend to try and support each other as best we can. would say that the team will be quite sensitive towards the fact that the accountants are up to their eyeballs. I love to say that we have more social events or letting our hair down more often, but actually we just work solidly right the way through. Every single year we say the same thing. Next year it's going to be better. Next year, we're going to chase clients earlier. And I wonder why the team say that because they're so super efficient anyway. It isn't actually us that causes the busyness of January, it's actually the clients. yeah, we're a super supportive team. We do some well-being. We go for walks. know Terry, who's in our network group, ⁓ she and meets with the staff each month and takes them out for a walk. We're in the countryside, so the walks are now super beautiful. and that allows them to just walk away from the computer for a bit. sure people have lunch break is really difficult and you've got a really dedicated team. They don't want a lunch break, but they need a lunch break. ⁓ I try and encourage them to like, get up, go for a walk, just go walk around the block, even if it's really cold or snowing, not that we've had snow this year, but if it's really chilly, wrap up warm and go for a walk. But our admin team really do step up during the busy period. ⁓ And then afterwards, we have a very late Christmas party. either have one very early in the year, i.e. October, or we will do some sort of celebration later on once we've got through that busy period. Granger Forson: for the end. I like all that. I like the real care and attention you have for your staff and ⁓ helping them to realise that are so important. To get the eyeballs away from the screen, let the brain go and see the trees moving and ⁓ that break you need to come back refreshed ready to keep going, ⁓ especially those really busy periods. ⁓ that's ⁓ Act ⁓ our round. So have you for us to have a conversation about today. Holly Siddall: It's going to have to be recruitment. really, really struggle with recruitment. It's got to be how do you find the right ⁓ member to join your team. Granger Forson: Yeah, so, ⁓ right, so give us an understanding where we are today. ⁓ why do you say you're struggling? What's happened recently? Holly Siddall: So last year, we had a new team member join and wasn't We then recruited who ⁓ also wasn't suitable. we then so that was last year. This year, we took on another person, and wasn't suitable either. and the track record goes that the CV says one thing and the person is actually somebody completely different and with two of these candidates they've come from a recruitment agency so I don't know whether I'm just struggling to find the right recruitment agency but the job description is quite clear in we're for ⁓ and the CVs come through and match beautifully they In most cases, these people have interviewed well, otherwise I wouldn't have offered them a job. then I seem to get slightly further down the line and find that they're not able to actually do what we've asked them to do. So, Granger Forson: Is that in terms of the or the ⁓ coordination or fitting into the team? ⁓ Holly Siddall: the skills. I think it's mainly a skill thing but unfortunately with the last person they couldn't get the work done which is really disappointing and it's quite obvious to such a small team if someone's not pulling their weight then if the work's not being done and we've got an additional team member then we would we are going to see quite clearly that there's a problem. So we've discovered that there's been people that think that they can just come and stick their feet up on a desk. they weren't working. Let's put it that way. ⁓ Granger Forson: Wow, wow, yeah, I know They experienced peoples. So yeah, yeah. ⁓ Holly Siddall: No, yeah we had, well as you know it's just ⁓ finding the right person that actually do the Granger Forson: So. Okay, let's take the last recruitment round that you did. Okay, take us through the steps, what are the steps you went through to do the recruitment? ⁓ Holly Siddall: So the first thing we did was obviously build the job description, update it, because it was one from last year, and it out to social media recruitment agencies, ⁓ and and get as many CVs through the door as possible. ⁓ I've tried of the online platforms, like Indeed. I get probably people apply through Indeed, and very rarely find anything that's come through. Well, most people aren't even in the same town. ⁓ which is really quite frustrating because it's not a remote job. It's actually a job that's going to be in the office. So once the CVs have come in and they've been checked by the team before they come anywhere near me, we'll then involve HR. Myself and my HR consultant will go through the CVs and whittle them down to who we want to interview. Person will come in for an interview and it's either, as you will always say, Grainger, it's either a hell yes or a hell no. I think my hell yeses are a bit broken. But it really has come down to the fact that we've done all sorts. We've done tests with people. We've multiple We've had other team members interview. We've tried all We just don't seem get the right candidates, I feel. Granger Forson: Yep. Hmm, so you've tried testing. Did you do testing in the last round of this individual that came in? okay. ⁓ Holly Siddall: So this last individual was very highly qualified on paper and the two weeks Granger Forson: Yeah. Yeah. Holly Siddall: me, if I had done a test ⁓ I think would stopped me from employing from what we've discovered. So yeah, was a real shame that I didn't that element ⁓ of the interview stage. Granger Forson: Yeah. Yeah. So maybe what you haven't got is a consistent approach to recruiting. trying different things each time. maybe thinking about then the structure, I always call them hurdles ⁓ ⁓ seem to think recruitment is about finding right person. OK, ⁓ just with me why I say it like that. Where actually we want is the right person to put the effort in to come and join us. So ⁓ we're a bit like the sales process, your SEO, people are now turning up because they want to work with you. So how do we change that then within our recruitment process? So people want to come to the next step. They want to come through. And the interview to me should almost be, and multiple interviews, but the sort of final interview with you maybe should be the final, the icing on the cake. Yeah, you've achieved, you've demonstrated to us that you want to work with us. You've demonstrated to us you've got the skills, you've demonstrated you've got some attitude, you've demonstrated that yes, this is the right type of place you want to be. Now you get that final interview with Holly where you get that sort of real understanding of, you know, demonstrated to Holly that you want to work here rather than the other way around. You're interviewing, hoping that they'll want to work with you. does that ⁓ fit with you? you Holly Siddall: Yeah, yeah, it's definitely it's definitely something that I'm gonna look to improve And yeah, absolutely. I think that HR consultants said a similar thing exhausted from it. I think that's the biggest struggle is that when you when you have a couple of ⁓ You want to start again and it's really difficult to pull yourself back round and go right well Granger Forson: Yeah. Yeah. Holly Siddall: Let's start again. So I think the team are going to take over and take control of the majority of it. So the idea of me doing the last interview be really sensible. ⁓ didn't test this because CV was ⁓ so amazing. we tested verbally rather than ⁓ actually with like physical exercise to do. And I think that's where we need to improve is to put that actual physical test back in. Granger Forson: Yeah. Right. Yeah. Holly Siddall: for the candidates. Granger Forson: So, So step one would be then the job advert. So within the job advert, we're not just saying, this is the role, do you want to come and work with us? What we're actually saying is, this is the job, this is what we do, this is how we delight our clients. Are you the right type of person that would want to do this? you're asking them to think about themselves rather than you trying to attract them, turning it around with that type of thinking. no perfect one answer for that, but we're trying to change that dynamic to them going, yeah, I'm that type of person. ⁓ could work at ILEX rather than I want to work at ILEX and get that salary. And yes, I can do those skills. So be the sort of first step. The second step, ⁓ and send in CVs. Why CVs? You've already that they lie. What else could you do instead of CVs? What could you be different in the market? place. Holly Siddall: Yeah, I like the idea and I don't know why I've not adopted it for the UK but ⁓ when I the job advert out in the Philippines for ⁓ Marjorie, we actually asked to do, ⁓ record a video. Granger Forson: Yeah, I love that. ⁓ I've... Yes. Holly Siddall: tell us a little bit about yourself, cut out some of the interview process by telling us a bit about yourself and why you'd want to come and work for ILEX and what your experience has been and just see if we can get them to maybe cap it at a couple of minutes or five minutes maximum. And also I think when we were recruiting in the Philippines, the people that didn't do a video were instantly a hell no. Granger Forson: Yep. Perfect. Holly Siddall: It was very easy, it kind of cut the numbers down so dramatically. Whereas I suppose because I'm working with a recruitment agency, that's not something they'd necessarily done before. So I'm kind of a bit guided by them. But then I need to remember that obviously recruiters are there to try and put a staff member in. And yes, they will obviously want to find the right staff member. But if I want a video, then maybe I should ask for a video. Granger Forson: Yeah, and you only want the ⁓ at the interview stage. We're not even invited into the interview stage at this time. We're still at that sifting down. Do they want to do it? And the thing I love about a video is you've given somebody some definitions, some instructions. So now you're not just seeing a video. You're seeing, can they follow some basic instructions? So produce a video, send it to this website. It must be maximum of two and a half minutes. It must tell us about you and it must tell us about some of your experience. I don't know. You can decide what it is. now you're starting to see straight away, can people, is this person A, have they jump over this hurdle, but are they actually thinking about they can follow some basic instructions and produce something ⁓ The of it's to them. So their creativeness then can come out ⁓ of doing that. ⁓ ⁓ they'll only to that because your job advert is about telling them about the type of person that ⁓ flourishes in your organization that they ⁓ measure themselves up against Holly Siddall: Yeah. Granger Forson: that of that person so therefore they want to do the next bit which is then the video. ⁓ else who doesn't, ⁓ you say, it filters them out. So a video can be a really good way ⁓ starting that filtering step. Then that, if people get through say a videoing stage ⁓ and if recruitment agency says they don't want to do that, well ⁓ are the right recruitment agency for you? ⁓ Holly Siddall: No. Granger Forson: There you go, there you go. So after that step, the next step would be What would we do next? Because we still haven't got to interviews, we still don't want see these. What do we think we would want to do next? Holly Siddall: Would you grab a telephone call with them? Granger Forson: Brilliant. Yep, a quick telephone call, yeah, because no body language involved, yeah, we're just looking at people now, people worry these days with AI and all that sort of stuff, well, okay, doesn't matter, but a quick 15 minute phone call, ⁓ yeah, that feeling, but not you, ⁓ your do it, ⁓ So team a set of questions and things that we're feeling to start to pull some of the bits and pieces that we want to check with these individuals, okay. Then after that, ⁓ test. ⁓ doing testing for skill, ⁓ for skill. You've to do that. And no how good these individuals are, and I think they may be, ⁓ test their level. ⁓ If the doesn't have a, like an accountancy role or bookkeeping role that has specific skill sets behind it, test for other types of skills. Test for their for ⁓ under pressure organisational And there's lots of things you can find out on the internet to do those type of skill testing and understanding. One of my friends for an interview at Toyota and he got through various rounds ⁓ and he got to the fourth round ⁓ and he had to do a skills test where they ⁓ threw papers at him and he to sort the papers and he had to put them into different slots. they started off just with a few and then five turned up and then ten turned up and then twenty turned and they were just building up the pressure just to see how well he worked under pressure but how could he organise himself? Then they stopped ⁓ they asked him to reflect and to think about how he could make that process better and then they started again and what they were looking for were those people that A, can manage under pressure ⁓ B, they were looking for people that can make small improvements to make their lives easy as well which is one the Toyota production system. Holly Siddall: Thank you. Granger Forson: about. So you can use experiments, tests, to test different types of skill sets that you're looking for within your team and characteristics. There's also psychrometric testing, whether you agree with them or not. There's all these other things you can do to get a much more different understanding of somebody before you then decide the next stage of them, they ⁓ for an interview? Because the interview is the most valuable your time, so you need the best people turning Holly Siddall: Thank Granger Forson: up for that. So again the interview could be done by your staff and your team. They should be interviewed, everybody should be interviewing them, not just one or two. all having a range of questions etc. ⁓ then they all come together and agree ⁓ then there's a final round which is as we said ⁓ then come for a final interview with you. again maybe with somebody else beside you and so it's not just yourself but you're then doing that final verification of everybody's feedback from that. So therefore time is valuable to the business doing what you need to do in the business ⁓ then that last bit is the sort of icing on the cake when they've proved that they want to work with you and they're finally getting in front of you to have that conversation. How does that sit with you? What are your thoughts? Holly Siddall: Sounds good, sounds very long-winded and I'm supposed I'm slightly panicky that I need a new member of staff but spending that extra time to get the right person obviously is better than wasting my time. So yeah I think there's lots of areas within that that we could adopt. I'm guessing when you say all of the staff interviews you don't mean all the staff at the same time because that may be slightly tempting. Granger Forson: Hmm? No, no, of the best ones I ever came across ones is the Zappos story, which is the... ⁓ ⁓ online and those bought by Amazon and a fantastic book about bringing joy the workplace etc and they actually invented speed dating interviews so each member they met something like 20 I can't remember the number some of like 20 people ⁓ and they had five minutes with person and they had a set of questions one or two questions and some overlapped and some did internet etc and then all those 20 people all came together at the end ⁓ to give their feedback and thoughts about that individual. yeah, are lots of different ways to do interviews, but it's the more people you can get involved, the more you can ⁓ those different types of questions ⁓ get that gut feeling from multiple people rather than just one. Holly Siddall: Yeah, definitely, definitely gonna do that. Definitely gonna get some more people involved. yeah, it's have to just be a longer process so that we can really work out this next person is the right person. And somebody suggested to yesterday maybe having them in for like a trial day. So rather than ⁓ setting them up their computer and everything, just we have a spare, what we call our admin machine. ⁓ Granger Forson: Yeah, brilliant. Holly Siddall: they could come in and just spend a day with us and just, you know, just, just, just kind of shadow somebody or, or, or do a small task. I mean, it's, it's quite a, it's quite a high position within the company. It's a head bookkeeper role. So it's needs to be someone that's got lots of experience and isn't going to be scared to be thrown in at the deep end. So yeah, if someone is genuinely interested in the role, then I would hope that they could take maybe a day off from their current role and, Granger Forson: Yeah. Holly Siddall: Join us for a day just to test run. Granger Forson: Yeah ⁓ know in ⁓ lean world that ⁓ I'm in and we discuss these types of things you know across the world so it's not always easy depends on the country you're in but they a really good lean company will always invite someone in for a trial day and then they get feedback from everybody they worked with ⁓ and ⁓ they a trial week. Yeah, yeah, now I don't know how that would sit in the UK and the laws. I've wondered about that. I've never really gone exploring it, but they have a trial week to truly understand it and they so that way they interact with more people in the business and therefore they get a wider feedback of understanding of what they're like on a day-to-day capability they even get to offer it. So there are always these ⁓ of ⁓ that you need to put in front of people ⁓ them to want ⁓ come and join you ⁓ than the other way around is you're just trying to sell your business hoping they'll come to join you. Turn it around, put it on them to prove it that they want to. I think that's the real difference with recruitment I've across over the years to help. Brilliant, fantastic conversation. Hopefully you got some great ideas there to go and try and keep me up to date because we meet ⁓ as well. So let's do our wrap up and close now. What you hear yourself say today that maybe surprised you? Holly Siddall: ⁓ you asked about ⁓ that have not gone quite so well. I struggled to find something that not gone well. Yeah I would that just taking that moment to look back, I'm sure other people have said this to you as well, but taking a moment when someone asks you a question and says what's gone well and what's not gone well and you just look back over the last few years and think I've actually done all right. done all right ⁓ just a moment to reflect so yeah that shocked me to be honest Granger Forson: brilliant and you know over a 10 year period when you look back you've achieved so much yes there were probably lots of really highs and lows amongst all of that but what you actually remember is the success and that that's what you've demonstrated so really well done. ⁓ So finally how can people get a hold of you and follow more of your journey? Holly Siddall: So we're on social media, ilex accountancy services. We've got a website, lovely website, with lots of reviews which are worth a read because my clients know that I am very black and white, so they're all very black and white with me, So yeah, just come find us or you can give us a call. We're based in Maysmore, so we're Gloucester, which is 01452 260 950. You get to speak to the lovely Katie, who's our client relationship manager. and she would book you in to come see us. We love meeting clients face to face, but we will do things on teams as well. people are not local, then that's absolutely fine. But if you are local, come for a walk. Come for a walk and have a chat. Talk to me about all the things that go wrong in your world of ⁓ accounts tax. Granger Forson: Yes, come and see the ducks. Well, Holly, thank you so much for our conversation and being open and honest today. I know our listeners will get an awful lot from this conversation. ⁓ you. Holly Siddall: Granger, it's been great.