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Unlocking Potential: Neurodiversity in the Workplace · Living Loud and Proud: Disability Conversations

• Phill Rosen Voice Over 00:00:00 Welcome to the Living Loud and Proud Podcast brought to you by Disability Pride Pennsylvania. If you need a link to the transcript for this episode, please visit our accessible website at www.disabilitypridepa.org/podcast. And now, here is your host... Ellen Shimberg 00:00:17 Hi everyone, and welcome to Disability Pride Pennsylvania's Living Loud and Proud Podcast. A thank you to Highmark Wholecare, the sponsor of today's episode. Today we are hosting the Neurodiversity Employment Network of Philadelphia. And our guests are Laura Sibbald, a nationally certified speech and language pathologist and an authentically neuro-spicy advocate with a deep passion for neurodiversity and the advancement of neuro-inclusive practices. She is the Executive Director of the Neurodiversity Employment Network. We're also welcoming Joe Riddle, who is the leader of the Neurodiversity in the Workplace, a nonprofit consultancy that designs and implements neurodivergent inclusion practices at partner organizations. Through NITW, Joe and his team work with more than 20 enterprise partners, including Dell Technologies, SAP, Walgreens, Bank of America and many more. And thanks to both of you for joining us today. Laura Sibbald 00:01:29 Thank you, Ellen. Joe Riddle 00:01:30 Yeah, thanks for having us. Ellen Shimberg 00:01:31 Great. We want to sort of jump right in. And of course, for everybody who's listening today, can you just give us an overview of what is the Neurodiversity Employment Network of Philadelphia? Laura Sibbald 00:01:42 Sure, I guess I can do the overview, and then I'll toss it to Joe a little bit for some of the background and the history. So essentially, big picture, NEN is a connection network. So we are a hub that brings together individuals, organizations, employers, nonprofits, higher education, K-12, everyone coming together to support meaningful employment opportunities. So we, we're the facilitators, essentially. Ellen Shimberg 00:02:16 And how does NEN support Philadelphians with neurodiversity? Laura Sibbald 00:02:21 Oh wow, that's, that's a pretty that's gonna be a big, long answer, especially for the two of us who can, who can talk a lot. So how does, how does NEN support? Basically, the fact that we are the connectors, the facilitators and kind of going off some of the discussions that we had in our previous podcast, Ellen, every single neurodivergent individual is unique. Every organization, every employer, is unique. So when you are like NEN, and you're driving advancement, you're driving action, you're driving change. You have to be in a position to facilitate how to get that started, and that means making deliberate and purposeful connections through the network to allow people to understand, hey, this group did this really, really well, and I want to learn how to do it really, really well too. So unless you have that space of connecting and like understanding the different roles that people play within a pretty complex topic, it's hard to actually create, like, a plan to move forward. And so what you see happening is loops of discussions or loops of education and learning, which is wonderful. I mean that that is a big aspect of growth, but without those kind of like models of, how do I do this? Or where's the space that we have to talk about the concerns or the breakdowns or the successes, then you can't advance. And so to me, that is like the critical and unique aspect of NEN is that we're a space like we are, where things happen and things come together to move forward. Ellen Shimberg 00:04:25 Are you noticing any trends in neurodiversity employment in Philadelphia as a result of really significantly increased awareness? Joe Riddle 00:04:35 Yeah, I'll jump in for that one. So we see, we see definite trends happening, and I think that when we look at neurodiversity employment, and just to level set, I usually define neuro, neurodiversity as different ways of thinking, learning, socializing, experiencing the world, right? And we all make up this big bubble of neurodiversity. But then when we look at neurodivergence, people who have different ways of thinking, learning, socializing. Experiencing the world, we get some unique views that we want to be able to, as Laura said, create the forum for people to express, 'Hey, here's what I need,' and for companies and businesses, employers, colleges, universities, providers, to listen and learn from those voices. So I think that that was the kind of driving force, too. We need to gather the community and figure out what, what that looks like, and what, what the community is wanting in employment spaces. And we see that there's a number of different trends that are starting to emerge and to kind of go back to the earliest trend, back in about 2013 in Philadelphia, there was a couple of different neurodiversity hiring programs that popped up. So SAP and their Autism at Work Program was created in Newtown Square, and so our organization worked on that to help them launch it. And then, along with EY and their Neurodiversity Center of Excellence was also in Philadelphia. And so it just happened to be kind of this hotbed of activity for neurodiversity employment. And then when we kind of fast forwarded a little bit, we saw that these national events started popping up surrounding neurodiversity employment specifically. And we would go to these national events, and a lot of people from Philadelphia would be there, and we started running into the same people, but yet we never talked to each other in Philadelphia. We always talked some other conference somewhere else, right? And so we said, 'Okay, this, this is getting to be a little ridiculous. We need to establish a place, a forum, a space in Philadelphia, so that we can continue these conversations,' because the city really was a leader in this space for a long time before we formalized NEN. And so we said, 'We need to recognize this. We need to show that this is a area where we can point to some examples of companies, employers, universities, who are doing a really good job. And we need to, you know, help them showcase that to the rest of the community.' So these trends start to emerge to your earlier question, we start to see kind of the trends of neurodiversity employment reacting to the general market. So it doesn't exist in a vacuum. When employment is booming, we see neuro-inclusion booming as well, and especially hiring programs. When it's slow, we see it slow as well. But what's really important is that we have that safe space for people to go back to, for people to share. Hey, here are the resources in those slow times, and here are the opportunities in the exciting, quick paced, hire everybody times that we see in the employment market in general. So NEN has really been able to kind of capitalize on those trends and support people in either time by either directing towards those resources or providing resources when there aren't as many opportunities. Ellen Shimberg 00:07:47 Right, and with respect to sort of employment trends, and you know, there's lots of job availability, there isn't job availability. How has the landscape of neurodiversity employment changed in the region over, say, like the past 10 years? What have you noticed from 2013 when, sort of that initial program started that you had mentioned, to sort of where we are today. And obviously there's still a huge road ahead. But how have you seen the landscape change? Joe Riddle 00:08:12 Yeah, it's been...In the early days, We had to define what we were talking about for like 15 minutes every time we started. Ellen Shimberg 00:08:21 Right, yeah. Joe Riddle 00:08:22 And the awareness has grown dramatically due to some of the works that Laura and NEN have done in kind of helping people to understand what this topic is, spreading it around, and the other countless companies that are joining the network and saying, 'Hey, this is an important thing to consider.' And so it is extremely obvious the amount of awareness is working towards more people understanding the topic and understanding the barriers that exist for people. I think there's still a long way to go. Still. We're asking for culture change overall, to say that when we have employment as a concept, that we include people who may think, learn, socialize, experience the world differently. That's hard, a hard concept to create. It's hard action change to happen. So I think that the those differences are starting to be clear in just awareness. But we still have more work to do. Ellen Shimberg 00:09:18 Right, and I guess that sort of leads into, you know...So what are some of the challenges and opportunities that have sort of emerged now that there's a greater understanding of neurodiversity and and, you know, working with with a much vaster and wider workforce that may fall under the neurodiverse umbrella? Laura Sibbald 00:09:36 I think for that, I mean, well, I kind of want to tag into what Joe was talking about in trends, and then link it back to that, to that question. I do think one thing you're seeing a little bit, you know, in 2013 there were specific programs about like neurodiversity at work, autism at work, focused hiring practices. And I think. A little bit more. What we're emphasizing now is this idea of inclusion practices, where it's not about a maybe a specific hiring program, but that if you're developing intrinsically, organically, a inclusive workplace, then it's an attractive workplace for neurodivergent people to be employed, because you're being inclusive overall. So I think there's a little bit of a shift in terms of how, at least from our side, how we are trying to talk about what it means to be neuro inclusive, or to have like neurodiversity at work, or, you know, hiring people. Because sometimes, if you think, 'Oh, it's this whole big program we have to lift,' then it becomes, like, a different conversation than really, like, you know, you're, you're missing out on a whole segment of a population because of how you've set up certain practices. So I think there's a way, like, I'm a language person, like language matters there. I think the way that you're talking about it, the way that you're expressing it and delivering it, really makes a difference in how people perceive it. And also, I think you see a lot with this idea of we're hiring, oh, we have to have these new hiring. We have to bring in new people. We're not able to do that. We're overwhelmed. And a little bit of what I've been shifting into is retention practices, advancement practices, because employment isn't just about, you know, getting the job, it's also about keeping the job. And I think that that that resonates also with organizations and individuals. One of the trends overall that you're seeing with employment is much higher rate of turnover. People are leaving jobs, you know, they're they're looking for new opportunities. So in trying to think about as a neurodivergent person, as someone who needs that, like, sometimes literal explanation of the hidden curriculum of what's going on in a workplace. How do you know what advancement looks like? How do you know when someone's offering you an opportunity and they're like, 'Hey, do you want to take this training?' And you're like, 'No, I love my job... Ellen Shimberg 00:12:20 Right. Laura Sibbald 00:12:20 ...but I don't want to, you know, learn new things.' You know, that has an impression on people, even when you don't intend it to be, even if it's like, 'I don't, you know, this is what I love doing. I'm happy here. Why would I want to do new stuff?' Ellen Shimberg 00:12:34 Right. Laura Sibbald 00:12:34 You know, there's so there's, there's different things within employment and understanding from an employer standpoint, how do I not just bring people in, but ensure that I'm giving them the tools to advance their own careers? And from the other side, how do I utilize opportunities, if I may be in a job that I don't love right now, and I'm trying to leverage what I can and then understand how to take that and move it forward. And that's that is. It's not unique to neurodivergent people at all, but it is something that you have to think about a little differently with that population. So those are two other things that I think we're seeing a little bit more is like, not just the idea of new hiring, but also retention... Ellen Shimberg 00:13:25 Right. Laura Sibbald 00:13:25 ...and that's from an employer standpoint, also good business. Ellen Shimberg 00:13:29 Which sort of sort of dovetails, you know, there are still, I think, some common misconceptions about neurodiversity, and I'm wondering, and I'm aware that this is a really broad question, but I'm wondering if some of those misconceptions. Can we dispel some of those today, which sort of leads into and then the benefits of neurodiversity inclusion for businesses. But I think there might still be some myths and some misunderstanding around what is neurodiversity and sort of who falls under that umbrella. Laura Sibbald 00:13:57 Joe do you want to start? And I'll jump in? Joe Riddle 00:13:59 Yeah, I think, I think, I think there's a lot of misconceptions. I think that, especially if we look at some specific neurotypes, right? Let's look at autism. For example. There's a common phrase in the Autistic community, 'If you've met one person with autism, you've met one person with autism,' right? And we've heard that, and I think that it is really true. And one of the biggest misconceptions that we see is that autism equals STEM field. It doesn't always equal that. And we have, we have a database of job seekers who reach out to us, and it is wide representation from every field, every major of study, every interest. It's not just STEM and I think that that's one of the one of the most interesting misconceptions that we've kind of had to popularly combat. I think that the other thing is that people, who I think people, misunderstand that neurodivergence is a very small percentage of the population. It's not. It's about 15 to 20% Of the population fall into different ways of thinking, learning, socializing, experiencing the world. And I think that that's something that companies are starting to as Laura said earlier, they're starting to understand if we can change the way that we do business, in some ways, we can have better retention. We can have better products that customers use, because our customers are also neurodivergent. And I think that we're starting to see that kind of progressive lens be shifted onto companies and viewing that this isn't just about who we are hiring, it's not just about who we are selling to. It's about a combination of all of these things. And I think it's been really interesting to see that that kind of shift. Laura Sibbald 00:15:43 Yeah, I agree. Think, from, again, starting with the autism side, the social aspect of like, 'How are they going to fit? Like, I have this impression that, you know, autism looks like Sheldon from the Big Bang Theory.' It's called reductionism, when we when we take something and we just reduce it down, and we do it. We love doing that as a society. And so when you have that, you're like, oh, I don't know if that that personality maybe fits with with what my image is in in our organization. And so I think it's really it's really powerful when you have people who are sharing that they're neurodivergent. And you see people go like, 'Oh, like, you're not what I thought would be neurodivergent.' And so I think there's, there's that from the social aspect of like, it's not about that, you know, people don't want to have friends, or people are going to isolate themselves at work. And that's just really, like a misconception of a lack of understanding of expectation and the hidden curriculum that exists within these, these different environments that we are in. And then when you have, I think another like stereotype with ADHD and sometimes with neurodivergence in general, is that it only really occurs when you're a child. Like that somehow you just grow out of it, or it goes away. And that's also untrue. And I think when people say things like, 'Oh, you know, you'll, you'll just, you'll grow out of it, you don't really, you know, that's not a thing anymore, everybody has a little bit of that.' It really like kind of minimizes the fact that they are, you know, real identities. They're, you know, they're real diagnoses, and they're real ways that people think. And by kind of minimizing that, you're also minimizing them as an individual and and even though a lot of times, from my experience, it's well intentioned, it's, you know, it's, very well intentioned, but I think there is still a big misunderstanding of that from like that, you grow out of it like you. That's not true. And then also, you know, we look at medical model versus social justice models, and you're looking at this idea of disability as a negative, like not just neurodivergence, but broadly, it's a negative. It's a thing that you don't want, and I think that is something that we have to kind of combat a lot of the time. It's it's not a negative, it's simply who a person is. It's just part of their overall makeup and part of their overall identity. So those those types of factors, and when you talk about them, what I've found people are really, really engaged with that idea of we're not looking at the individual, we're actually looking externally, at the environment. And what are the shifts that we can make as a society to help someone function better within their environment. And from my experience, when people talk about that they're, get kind of like excited that you've changed their whole perspective, right? You've changed the way that they look at things. And that can be really, really powerful, and it can be uplifting for a person like you're changing, 'Wow, this is I have such power that I can do all of these things simply by changing my perspective.' Ellen Shimberg 00:19:08 Right, that sort of, sort of circles around, you know, are there some sort of, and I that's such a broad question, but some practical steps that employers can take to become more neuro inclusive. And I know that every employer and every work situation is different, but are there some sort of general guidelines, for folks going? Joe Riddle 00:19:28 Yeah, yeah. I think the best advice that we can give people who are asking that question is one, let's look at the support systems that you have available. Currently, a lot of people have support systems that they don't even know about, that live in their benefits packages that they can offer to a lot of different employees. Let's make sure that people know about them, right? That's a really easy win. We can direct people to access things that they already have access to. But then let's look at what is missing out of that list of benefits that might that might be there. Let's make a list of things that people require. Best, things like access to support coaches or executive functioning coaches can be really beneficial for people. Then we also want to look at, there's formal accommodations, and then there's also just workplace adjustments that we can make. This is understanding, like Laura was saying earlier, understanding that we all have different work styles and preferences, and allowing flexibility in how we demonstrate those work styles and preferences. For example, if you're on a what a lot of people do, if you're on a zoom call or a teams call, and you have this mandate that everybody has to be on camera all the time, that's not going to be the most beneficial thing for everyone, right? Allowing teams to be a little bit more flexible and saying, Hey, here's here's what you can do in however, setting up your work style suits you best. The other thing is understanding that, since we all have different work styles and all have different preferences, offering things in multiple modalities can be really, really beneficial. So saying to employees, I'm going to deliver the information verbally in a team meeting. I'm also going to follow up with an email. This helps different styles of processing, different styles of absorbing information, so that people understand what what you're communicating. And then the last easy tip that I'll give, I think, is looking at the the fact that we often have so many hidden curriculum items that we have in our daily experience, things that are not explicitly ever communicated to the other person, but that are generally expected. And taking some time to kind of clarify those hidden curricula to say, here's what's expected of everyone in these circumstances, help ever helps everyone to kind of perform better and be viewed better. And simple things like sending an agenda in advance of a meeting, we've seen to drastically lower anxiety for both neurodivergent and neurotypical people in a workplace setting, this is a really easy thing for managers, for teams, for people, leaders in any organization to do to just in the invite say, 'here's what we're going to talk about today.' It allows people to prepare in advance. Allows people to say, 'Okay, I'm expecting that I'm going to contribute on XYZ.' And it removes some of this hidden curriculum of 'I'm going to go to the meeting, and we'll see.' And you know, what we see is that when we find little ways to lower these anxieties that people have about the workplace, about the work styles. We get better productivity, we get better engagement, we get better retention. So all of these things really simple strategies to just try and make the workplace a little bit more friendly. Ellen Shimberg 00:22:35 So I'm curious, you've probably seen the trend now. Now there's everybody needs to be back in the office five to you know, we thought we'd made all this progress with the pandemic. We realized that there's a whole population of folks who have classically been underemployed. Pandemic gave them an opportunity. We had work from home. We have these this fantastic technology, really, and the attention was getting for folks who typically have been sort of closed out of the employment market. Now there's all these mandates to return, and I'm wondering about its impact on folks for whom that's just not always going to work. And how can we work with employers to say, 'Look, we've got great, fantastic, productive employees. Not every day need to be in office.' I chose to work from home from today, and I'm grateful that I have the opportunity and the flexibility to do so, but we're seeing how many organizations are changing that, and the your thoughts on the impact that that's going to have on on folks who that's just not their most productive work style? Joe Riddle 00:23:24 Yeah, definitely. So our team over at Neurodiversity in the Workplace supports hundreds of people in workplace settings. And yes, it's very difficult to make that transition from remote setting back into person, but with the pandemic and what the the shift to remote world allowed is that we demonstrated that flexibility is possible, that we can actually make some changes in how we run our teams, how we run our conversations, how we interact with each other in the workplace. And so I think that what we're encouraging, you know, we don't have necessarily the sway to say, 'Let's just make everybody remote all the time, or give that the option.' But we can really emphasize that flexibility is possible, and there can be some really creative solutions. For example, a simple strategy that businesses are implementing is there's often unused offices in this kind of shift back into the workplace. Those are great sensory, you know, rooms where we can people can get a break from a sea of cubicles where they might be allowed a lot of loud noises, right? Using those ability for people to schedule those rooms, to be able to reserve those rooms and say, 'I'm going to get some work done. I'm going to take some time and go into this office,' can remove some of those sensory difficulties that exist in that return to office. Little things like that were encouraging companies to understand, but then also looking at, okay, let's make sure we understand when we can give exceptions for people to allow them to work from home, especially if they're able to fully do that job. So encouraging that flexibility is key. Ellen Shimberg 00:24:57 Right, and that's is, is that flexibility? Asking for that, is that considered moving forward for folks who need to go back to is that going to be considered an accommodation? Joe Riddle 00:25:05 It is in a lot of organizations an accommodation. We work with several companies where their accommodations teams, have, you know, really been heavily overwhelmed by exactly that request. And so I think that, you know, we, we want to so, so we're seeing, we're seeing that as an accommodation that people are using. It's not universally an accommodation, because I think that some companies still have a flexible policy of, yeah, it's going to be a return to office, but a hybrid situation where you can pick and choose the days and times that work best for you. And so I think it's going to be an interesting landscape as it continues to emerge as to what this, the future of work looks like, but we do know that we have to hold on to this, you know, demonstration that we've had that flexibility is possible in how we are working with each other. Ellen Shimberg 00:25:55 I would say that that sort of becomes, you know, how can employees, employers create a supportive and welcoming environment for their neurodiverse employees? And I think this is one of the sort of an understanding that perhaps you know, the five day a week schedule is not it. Are there other things that employers can be doing to sort of make neurodiverse employees feel more welcome? And ultimately, we know well employees who feel welcomed and supported are ultimately happier and more productive employees. And are there things that employers could start doing, in a generic sense, to help encourage that? Joe Riddle 00:26:27 Yeah, I think that when we look at what employers can do, things like what Laura is facilitating at the Neurodiversity Employment Network can be really beneficial, right, allowing a forum for people to talk about neuro-inclusion also encouraging leaders to step out and say, 'Hey, I'm neurodivergent, and I experience this in the workplace.' It can be really, really beneficial. And so just creating some safe spaces, some conversations within the company. Maybe it's a lunch and learn where you invite someone in to talk about neuro-inclusion, or maybe it is within an employee resource group to say, 'Hey, we are going to talk about this topic as part of our disability inclusion or just our neuro inclusion strategy.' We've seen lots of companies do this. We're also seeing in October, National Disability Employment Awareness Month, we're seeing a lot of these conversations starting to happen, and it's one of these trends that we're really excited about, because there's a ton of interest from companies and from neurodivergent people already in there saying, 'Hey, we need to talk about this. We need to look at some of the strategies that are most viable here.' So it's been interesting. Ellen Shimberg 00:27:36 You know, what are the benefits of of neurodiversity, inclusion for business, and we'd mentioned briefly stem, I think, sort of the broader understanding that not all folks who are neurodivergent are necessarily. I use Spock, you can tell how old I am. Is it sort of my reference point for that, sort of that sort of the typical image that we've had and the show, you know, and and so how do we sort of expand our perception of what neurodivergence is, and what are the benefits to an employer for hiring somebody neurodivergent? When I'm going to go back 10 or 15 years ago, where perhaps those were not the you know, those folks would come in for interviews and probably were classically, automatically written off because they potentially don't interview well. So how can we encourage and let employers know that the benefits for hiring our neurodivergent peers? Joe Riddle 00:28:22 Yeah, great question. And I think that looking at some of those benefits, we see that there's a classical archetype that a lot of employers look for in their interview process, right? And it is kind of this well-rounded, polished salesman type person. And if we look at the interview process itself to answer your question. Focusing in on that interview process is an interesting example, right? We often are evaluating someone's like performance in an interview. This doesn't make any sense, especially when the job is not interviewing all day. And there's a number of different studies out that show that people leaders are actually really bad at deciding who's going to be valuable, productive members onto their teams, and yet, people leaders always rate themselves as very high in that ability. And so what we see is that if we can help demonstrate to people that okay, this doesn't this kind of traditional method of traditional interviewing, where we're asking behavioral style questions really makes no sense. There's no good data that supports that managers can pick out who's going to be beneficial on their team. So what we'd like to illustrate is using things like a skill based hiring method, where we're focusing in on a person's specific skills that are related to that role. That's a much more data driven way to do it. And I'm not talking about tests. I don't really like the use of tests because then you get test anxiety and things like that. But instead looking at asking people about specific skills that are actually role-related, instead of assuming that they need to be this well-rounded salesperson, and we see this all the time. We've seen so many employers come and they're hiring for, you know, for example, a marketing, you know, data analytics person, and they're trying to see how well they think on their feet, and challenge them with surprise pop quiz questions, totally unrelated to the job, right? And getting out of that is a useful mindset for companies to start to realize. Ellen Shimberg 00:30:22 I would say that and I'm and I'm going way back. You know, typically I would say if I've called you in for the interview because your resume matches our skill sets. Now I'm trying to see if you're a fit for our organization. Which was a great model, until you take into consideration that folks who potentially would be fantastic at their role may not interview. Come in for the interview. I'm like, 'Yeah, they've got everything I want skill wise, but I'm not sure they're going to be a good fit for our team. And how do we, and I can't help but think that that still happens, and how do we want those folks who are who are going to be fantastic on the job, but who maybe aren't as strong in the interview process, in terms of, I'm not sure how this person's going to fit in,' and what can we do to sort of once? How do we get change people's mindset around that? And then how do we support that employee who may have some difficulty integrating with the team once they're hired? And if that's a really big question, this all gets edited. So if that's a really big question, but I know for a fact like that was, I was, I can look back on past interviews and say, 'Oh my goodness, that person may have been fantastic, but they didn't interview great. Their personality came across as not be right. And I possibly passed on potentially great employees.' And I can't imagine I'm the only one who did that. So how do we, and that's a part of that process too, isn't it, sort of the being a part of a team. And how do we, sort of say it's, oh, the you know, how do we, you see, it's a really big question. I'm going for is, how do we get past this in the interview? And then once we say, 'Okay, this person's going to be great fit. But how do we help support them once we brought them on board to make sure that we're not using them just for their skill set, we also want them to have a happy and positive work environment as well?' Laura Sibbald 00:31:59 So I think if you you start with the bringing them on board, and you use the word that people use all the time, fit. You're looking for. You're looking for fit, which means that a lot of times, people are looking for themselves reflected in the candidate they're they're seeing that, 'Okay, like this is how I operate. This is how my team operates. This is how we as an organization operate.' And so what you end up with is a team that, yeah, probably fits, like, you're all pretty similar, but what you should kind of be considering is the term add. Like, what does this person add to my organization, what thought processes, what experiences are they bringing that are, you know, outside of what we have currently. Because you do see higher productivity when you bring in those diverse ways of of thinking. So that's like one kind of, not simple. It sounds simple, but like, you know, just, just flipping from fit to add, I think makes a big difference. And then in talking about, how do you make an employee, you know, have a level of comfortability in the workplace? And one term I don't know that we've talked about yet, I don't think so, is employee resource groups. And so one way, you know, job coaching and mentoring is a whole, a whole other area of discussion, but I think sometimes in underutilized resources, the idea of of employers have a lot of times employee resource groups that reflect the the diversity of the population within that organization and sometimes individuals find their people within those ERGs and within those connections. And I think that's a one way, like one way of supporting your culture is, if you're an employer and you have ERGs, you know, talk about them. Highlight them. You know, these, these are the groups that we have. We're always interested. That's I always hear from HR. We always want more. We always want to add ERGs. We always want to do all these things. And so I think that that's one way of helping an employee, kind of get a general sense of, like, the landscape of of the support within that that community, which is a whole other topic, but I do find interesting with ERGs is the the intersectionality within the disability community is huge. And so some of the feedback I've gotten from people within you know disability or neurodiversity based ERGs is their interaction with other ERGs that they also are part of, and how those groups can come together and coexist. So I think that's, like I said, it's another topic, but it's also very interesting when it comes to culture within an organization. Ellen Shimberg 00:34:56 And I'm not we've sort of touched on and you know this, as I said, this is. And I love the word add versus fit, because I think you're right. I think that sort of, we bring folks in, we think they're going to fit in with my team. And I think also is the the education component with with employers. You had mentioned job coaching and, and I think a lot of folks think that job coaching typically refers to those folks with intellectual disabilities and they have somebody helping them, you know, get the carts in the supermarket or, you know, whatever that task is. I'm not sure that, and I know that I wasn't aware that, that there was sort of more executive job coaching available to folks, and what that might look like in terms of supported employment? Joe Riddle 00:35:37 Yeah. So I think that the so we see a number of different organizations starting to provide what I call success coaching, and this is kind of an attempt to rebrand that job coaching definition, right? And I think that now I would like to also highlight you use the word supported employment. And I think that this is a different word, a different version of employment that we're looking at, when we look at a lot of the work in neuro-inclusion, doesn't mean that it's exclusive, because there are definitely supported employment opportunities and organizations who are providing those but I think that what we're instead looking at, and because the movement is relatively young, We're first looking at, okay, we need to understand that everybody thinks and learns and socializes and experiences the world differently, and that currently, a lot of organizations, a lot of employers, are not set up to be inclusive for even minor differences of thinking, learning, socializing. So we need to start to break that mold. We need to break that pattern first. And so we're seeing kind of different levels of support start to emerge. We're seeing supported employment providing roles like you described in traditional using vocational rehabilitation funding and things like that. But then we're also seeing these other organizations where the companies are paying for support systems for their employees, because if you're supporting employees to better manage stress, better be more productive, be happier in their jobs, it is also a win-win for the companies. And so I think that long term, what what I'm pushing to see is that we can take some of these models and move them into standard benefits offerings from employers, so that we can say, hey, everyone has access to an executive function coach or a success coach within the workplace, because that's a win-win for both the employee and the the employer. And we're starting to see that start to happen. It's still very early in this space, but it's one of the things that I think is kind of the next frontier in how organizations, how employers, can start to be able to better understand this topic. Laura Sibbald 00:37:46 I think you're seeing also a little bit more mentoring opportunities within organizations. And I think when you think about neurodiversity again, people think about the new hiring, we're bringing people in that are neurodivergent. But as Joe mentioned, it's 15 to 20% of the population. Guess what? They're already in your organization. So I think there's, there's also mentorship opportunities that you see starting to pop up, whether it's, you know, top-down approaches or bottom-up approaches, where employees themselves are kind of seeking out mentors, or there's programs where you're kind of trying to develop mentorship within an organization, you're seeing that a little bit more as well. And that's not specific to neurodiversity or neurodivergent employees. That's more the idea of having having a mentor is good. It's generally, it's generally a good positive thing. Ellen Shimberg 00:38:43 Considering this sort of and I'm going to go back to the 2013 model that you had mentioned earlier. Is there statistics or data that shows, look, we want to show you the difference when we've got somebody who has a coach in an environment where they're being supported across the spectrum here in terms of employee retention, employee satisfaction, like everything people want data to back things up. I mean, anecdotal is fantastic, but I'm curious, sort of, do you guys have any numbers that say, 'Look, let we can demonstrate hard numbers to show you the advantages of why this this works?' Joe Riddle 00:39:21 Yeah, when we look at the retention rates for the programs that our team over at NITW has worked on, we see well over 90% retention rates over a five-year period. That number is actually way too high. It's not a good number, but you know, we can demonstrate clear retention rates, and I mentioned it's not a good number. Because what that shows me is that maybe advancement is starting to lack because if that person's still in the role after five years, we maybe haven't changed the whole systemic way of interviewing for advancement opportunities. But it is clear, demonstrable, clearly demonstratable, that we do have really high retention rates when we can put some of these practices in place. On the flip side, we also see an increase in employee satisfaction and employee, and a decrease in employee anxiety over when an employee is supported with coaching or with other supports in the environment, or when they deem themselves. We did a big survey where we saw over 400 different responses. People said that they were less anxious when they feel their company understands what neurodivergence is. Very simple baseline. You know, understanding of it can be really beneficial. And I think that what it so often comes down to is companies need to both understand what neurodivergence is, but they also need to have some effective change management policies and systems in place so that they can make more neuro-inclusive processes for the organization. That's why we look at hiring programs can be really beneficial, because it makes sure that people are actually going to do what they say they're going to do. Instead of saying, you know, we're just trying to change the culture, it can be kind of distracting sometimes, or maybe less firm in results. Then we also see that. And this is a core function of Neurodiversity Employment Network of Philadelphia, where it's really beneficial for employers to come and talk to other employers and say, 'How did you do XYZ?' Right? And that can be really, you know, I can talk about it all day long. Laura can talk about it all day long. But a lot of times it's really helpful to have a peer-to-peer conversation with somebody and say, 'Here's what we did.' And the same thing goes for job-seekers, people who are looking for where to turn for support, for resources. Really helpful. You can always go to the providers in the area. You can go to people who are experts in in the space, but talking to another job seeker who has been through it, who has knows the ropes, can be so much more beneficial and so much more relatable. And so that's what this Neurodiversity Employment Network is attempting to do, and I think we're doing it really well. Is that we're trying to bring people together on that forum to have these peer-to-peer conversations. Ellen Shimberg 00:42:03 So, this may seem a question. This is just sort of a curiosity. So we know that folks with intellectual disabilities who have gone back to classic supported employment with a job coach. Those are funded programs. How does that right? So it comes through OVR, how are folks in employee situations where there's employers offering job coaching, job mentoring. Is that coming out of the organization's budget, or is there funding, as there are for other disabilities in terms of job coaching and employment support? Joe Riddle 00:42:35 So no, there's not usually. There's not usually funding. But what we're trying to illustrate is that one, companies should be providing this that's actually a lot of relatively inexpensive supports that can be offered. Because what we're also seeing is that there's a large amount of people paying out of their own pocket for those supports in their workplaces. That's really unfair. I think that it doesn't make sense when it's directly benefiting the employer, and there are great examples of organizations who are providing these support systems. A lot of our partners have it available through the accommodations process or through the benefits process to be able to do that, but we're still in the beginning of this movement. And so we are trying to communicate to other employers that, 'Hey, this is an important thing that you can provide.' And we're, you know, we've got a long way to go in that. Ellen Shimberg 00:43:31 When NEN brings folks together, employers in particular, sort of collectively, to talk about what they're doing. Is there an objective at the end that these you know, that we've committed to sort of making this happen, and what that looks like, and is there a universal approach? Are we sort of employers will be? Is there going to be a standard set of this is sort of the standard by which we judge and then each we tweak it to match our own company's specific needs? Laura Sibbald 00:43:59 That's a great question. I feel like the word standard is never when it comes to this work. It would make all of our lives easier if it was, but I don't know that standard is the word that I would use. Ellen Shimberg 00:44:13 Basic principles. Laura Sibbald 00:44:15 Yeah. So that definitely so when, when employers or organizations are coming into NEN. One of the things that we work on for our Quarterly Connect Events is to have them themed. So our theme in the Summer Connect Event was looking at inclusive workplace culture, so talking about ERGs, the impact of AI within hiring processes, disclosure within the workplace and from a higher education standpoint, how does disclosure in K-12, higher ed and post, you know, post higher ed and employers, how does that differ? And all of those spaces to have those discussions and then, like, the action item coming out of that event is like, what are one or two changes that you are making as an organization in order to address these things? So coming up in our next Quarterly Event for the Fall, we're looking at leadership and advancement. So how are we looking at being authentically yourself in the workplace, being flexible both sides, employer, employee, flexibility in the workplace. And then how do you use that to advance? So the same thing you're you're coming in with what we'll be doing, like Fireside Chat discussions from people who have navigated complex work environments. So you have the experiential side and also the practical application side, like, here's my experience, and what am I going to do with it? This is what that means in moving forward. So I think, you know, the balance with en we're not in a position to say, this is what you have to do in order to be successful. We are in a position to say, you know, there is, there is value here. There's a lot of value here for the individual and for the organization. There are things that we know people perceive as barriers, and we're tackling them, and we're breaking down those barriers with discussions, and we're facilitating the ways that people are connecting in order to take those next steps. So I look at it as a kind of a three step process. One, you're engaging, you're learning. Two, you're exploring, you're part of the discussion, you're moving forward, and then you're taking that information and you're evolving, you're bringing it back to your organization, and you're taking the next step. Ellen Shimberg 00:46:41 Without specifically naming organization. Are there some what would you say defines an organization that successfully embraced a neurodiversity hiring and, you know, practices, along with how do we make sure that those folks we brought on continue to stay on the job and who what? Because I don't want to name names, but what are the keys to success? You know, what is the model say, look, here's Company X, and they're doing a fantastic job, and here's what they're doing. And are there some sort of things that, you know, takeaways that come to say this, this is, this is what we do to make, make sure that those folks that we're hiring are in the right spot, and that they are as productive and happy as possible? And you know, what can we sit dated to end to employers listening today, who may be reluctant? Oh, my God, this. How are we going to do all of this? How can we say, here's why it works, and here's some company, you know, things that have, that have worked for other organizations, that might work within your organization as well? Laura Sibbald 00:47:37 So I'll tag two things, and then I'll, I'll turn it over to Joe. One of the first is the interview and hiring practices themselves. I think that when you're looking at before talking about skills based hiring and what exactly is the process that a person is going through during the interview, what you're looking for, how you're using AI in that process, is going to come up more and more often, I think so, looking at that is a metric of like success in bringing people in and actually finding that the unicorn for your organization, that good add for the organization. And then another piece, I'm just my thought just kind of ran out of my mind. Ellen Shimberg 00:48:23 It gives me all the time. Laura Sibbald 00:48:26 Give me one second. Oh, you mentioned data before. I think another like way of being successful is that, like cyclic data, reflection and overview of what's working and what's not that's unique to the organization. So what is being successful with what we're doing, and how do we continue that, and maybe what's not being successful? Because I think sometimes, and this isn't just this isn't just within employers, it's within, I think overall, people start to take data, and then they stop. They're like, Okay, we're gonna we did this once. We did this for one year, and we're not doing anything else with it. But I think that like kind of cyclic review of continually looking at your practices, and that it's an ongoing process, and that it's part of your policies and procedures in how you're making those changes is what allows for systemic change that endures over long periods of time, those like small, tangible metrics, small tangible goals that are linked directly to your organization's mission and vision, that you're making changes, you're measuring those changes, and then you're following up on the next step. I think sometimes, if you, if you try to take a big leap, your data is going to show like it's you're not being as successful, but you need to, like, measure the small step first. Joe Riddle 00:50:02 Yeah, and I think to add on to that, looking at organizations who are successful, there's a couple of different metrics that we use. One is awareness. Do people know that they, Do they know what neuro, neurodiversity is? Do they know what's available in their organization. The other is, accommodations. Are there access to accommodations? Does the accommodation teams know know the term? But I think that the biggest metric is usually action. Is there a group of stakeholders within the company who are actually working on this topic, whether it's learning, whether it's in the beginning stages of learning and understanding what actions to take. But is it someone's role or partial role, or, you know, task to work on this? And that makes a big difference, because it's very easy to say, 'Yeah, we're we're neuro-inclusive, and we support neuro-inclusion.' And then there's a difference when we see people who are actually working on it and putting some momentum towards that. And we don't expect anyone to meet some sort of compliance test as to what, how neuro-inclusive they are, yet, we want to meet people where they are and help them understand that the main objective for a good organization is that you're trying to improve in this category. So that's what we try to help organizations see. And again, a great way to do that is by talking to peers who are already working on it. How did you get this team to form? How did you understand what was necessary, and then also talking to internal voices to say, what do the neurodivergent people within our organization need? Let's start there. Ellen Shimberg 00:51:42 Right. I'm gonna and sort of with our last few minutes. So, you know, few years ago, DEI was the big buzzword, and all these companies brought in DEI compliance options, and all of a sudden, DEI now everybody's eliminating their DEI policies. And neurodivergent seems to sort of be the new, catchy, we want to make sure we're supporting employees. What is the concern that a few years down the line, people are going to say, You know what, just like DEI neurodivergent yeah, this is where do you see a trend in that regard, with, you know, in the way that sort of DEI is no longer the and how many organizations have eliminated roles and positions within that? Do you see potentially, that happening within the neurodivergent community as well? Sorry to be doom and gloom, but... Laura Sibbald 00:52:30 No, yeah, no, you're fine. I'll talk a little bit about this. I think, you know, we do at NEN specifically we do see DEI professionals joining us and having an interest. But they're not the only people within the employment environment that have an interest in supporting opportunities and having more inclusive practices. So I think that's one kind of metric that you can look at. If you were only attracting people who were kind of within that diversity, equity, inclusion world, and then that world goes away, then you might have a problem, but I but that's not what we're seeing in terms of the people who are invested and involved. And increasingly, you're seeing talent acquisition, HR having an interest in learning more about this, because every organization wants to broaden their funnel, right their talent pool. Every organization is really interested in, oh, we have this, this opportunity to, like, maybe an untapped resource and, yeah, so I think that that is part of, like, the neurodiversity side that, from what we can see now, moving forward, I don't see that being heavily impacted by some of the other external things that are going on with DEI and you can also look at certain states around the US that have different laws than we have here in Pennsylvania, and you still see, you know, autism programs, neurodiversity programs and things like that existing in those spaces, looking at it in a little bit of a different way. So even when there are barriers that exist within a space there, there are still like things that are moving forward and that are gaining traction. So I think both of those are really good indicators that while language changes and words change, and who knows what we'll be calling everything in 10 years, 15 years, but I think the concept behind what is happening is going to continue. Ellen Shimberg 00:54:34 Before we wrap up. Is there anything that I didn't touch on that you think would be a pertinent message to get across? Joe Riddle 00:54:41 Well, I think I would love to expand on Laura's answer there the anti-DEI lens that is emerging. I think I like to point out that it's often coming from a far right group who, it's actually a very small minority population. And I think that a lot of companies are. Still sticking with their pledges and their promises towards diversity and inclusion, and I think that's really encouraging to see that we, that there are companies who are staying firm to that. And I think that there's also a lot of David data-driven research that supports that DEI is good for business. I think that also, when we look at it in the future of work, the youngest generations entering the workforce identify with neurodivergence, with increasing prevalence in numbers. And I think that for companies who don't prepare and don't understand that as they're starting to hire the next generation of talent, they're going to be left out of some really critical talent who want to go towards companies who are putting in some simple measures to help support that talent, to help people be who they are and think the way they think and experience the world, the way they experience the world. So I think that it's a short sighted, you know, approach to say we should get do away with dei I think that it will come back to bite people who decide that that's the route they want to take. Ellen Shimberg 00:56:13 We would like to think that too. I want to thank both Laura and Joe for being a part of today's conversation. For those who are interested in more information about the Neurodiversity Employment Network, Laura, can you give us your website? Laura Sibbald 00:56:26 Absolutely. So it's neurodiversityemploymentnetwork.org, and you can email me directly at Laura, L-A-U-R-A@NENPHL.org, Ellen Shimberg 00:56:38 Thank you both for your time today, and once again, thank you to our sponsor, Highmark Wholecare for today's episode. Appreciate your time and look forward to following up with you in the future to see the kind of progress that we've made. Laura Sibbald 00:56:49 Thanks Ellen. Joe Riddle 00:56:50 Thank you! Phill Rosen Voice Over 00:56:52 Please visit our accessible website at www.disabilitypridepa.org. You can find us on social media @DisabilityPridePA on Facebook, Instagram and TikTok.