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#443 Jason Flom with Mario Casciaro · Wrongful Conviction

0:02
Speaker 1: On December twentieth, two thousand and two, seventeen year old
0:05
Speaker 1: Brian Carrock was last seen at the Johnsburg, Illinois supermarket where.
0:09
Speaker 2: He worked as a stockboy.
0:11
Speaker 1: The following day, he was reported missing, and then the
0:15
Speaker 1: police found blood spatter near a produce schooler at the store,
0:18
Speaker 1: followed by a bloody fingerprint on the door handle. DNA
0:22
Speaker 1: testing revealed two profiles, Brian Carrick and another stockboy named
0:27
Speaker 1: Rob Render, who had already quit his job at Skipped Town,
0:31
Speaker 1: while Brian or his body were never found. However, according
0:35
Speaker 1: to the police, Bryan's disappearance was much more complicated than
0:39
Speaker 1: it appeared. They believed that another stock boy named Mario Kusharo,
0:43
Speaker 1: whose family owned the supermarket, had orchestrated an incident that
0:47
Speaker 1: led to Brian's death, while Rob Render and another stockboy
0:51
Speaker 1: were just following orders. But this is wrongful conviction. Welcome
1:06
Speaker 1: back to wrongful conviction. I am so excited today because
1:12
Speaker 1: this story is a story I've been wanting to tell
1:15
Speaker 1: ever since I met the man who lived it, Mario Kasharo.
1:20
Speaker 1: And Mario's case is unique in so many ways. He's
1:24
Speaker 1: the only person in the history of the Great State
1:28
Speaker 1: of Illinois, to be convicted of murder without a body
1:32
Speaker 1: being found, with the exception of two guys you've probably
1:36
Speaker 1: heard of and probably wish you hadn't, John Wayne Gacy
1:39
Speaker 1: and Jeffrey Dahmer. And to make matters even worse and
1:43
Speaker 1: stranger and more mind boggling, Mario was convicted of a
1:49
Speaker 1: crime you've probably never heard of. I'd never heard of it.
1:52
Speaker 1: It's called murder by intimidation. So, without further ado, please
1:57
Speaker 1: join me in welcoming my great friend and personally hero,
2:01
Speaker 1: Mario Cacio. Mario, welcome to wrongful Conviction.
2:04
Speaker 3: Thank you so much for having me on this wonderful show.
2:07
Speaker 1: So this story, I mean, you were nineteen years old
2:11
Speaker 1: when this happened, but I want to go back even
2:14
Speaker 1: farther than that. And it's crazy too because this is
2:16
Speaker 1: a family story, because the alleged crime took place at
2:21
Speaker 1: the supermarket you worked at that was owned by your family.
2:25
Speaker 1: But let's rewind what was the previous eighteen years of
2:29
Speaker 1: your life like before we get up to the faithful
2:32
Speaker 1: occurrence that is the center of this story.
2:36
Speaker 3: I would say, to summarize it short, would be a blessing.
2:39
Speaker 3: My parents are the American dream my mother and father
2:42
Speaker 3: emigrated from Italy Southern Italy. My dad found a job
2:45
Speaker 3: as a janitor at a union company, worked there for
2:49
Speaker 3: thirty six years and retired as union stewart and the
2:53
Speaker 3: highest in command of a company that had twelve thousand employees.
2:57
Speaker 3: And then he was too young to retire but too
3:01
Speaker 3: old to start over, so he invested with some other
3:04
Speaker 3: family members to start a grocery store in the far
3:07
Speaker 3: northwest suburbs of Chicago. So we moved out to this
3:10
Speaker 3: small little town called Johnsburg, Illinois, and my parents started
3:14
Speaker 3: a supermarket because it was always my dad's dream to
3:17
Speaker 3: own a business.
3:19
Speaker 1: Johnsburg, Illinois has a population of less than sixty four
3:21
Speaker 1: hundred people, so most of the people whose names pop
3:24
Speaker 1: up in this story were all acquainted with each other
3:27
Speaker 1: from either high school just around town, or from working
3:30
Speaker 1: at vals to Cushao's grocery store, including a few of
3:33
Speaker 1: the stock boys, Alan Leppert, Shane Lamb, Robert Render, and
3:38
Speaker 1: then the victim in this case, a close friend of Mario's,
3:41
Speaker 1: Brian Carrick.
3:43
Speaker 3: Brian was one of fourteen children, nine of which worked
3:48
Speaker 3: for my family's grocery store at one time or another,
3:50
Speaker 3: so it was a family tradition for the Carrick children
3:55
Speaker 3: to work at VAL's while they were in high school
3:58
Speaker 3: until they went off to college or the army or
4:01
Speaker 3: whatever endeavors they had in their life. So we're pretty
4:04
Speaker 3: close because they lived also directly across the street from
4:07
Speaker 3: the store.
4:08
Speaker 2: On the only main road in town.
4:10
Speaker 1: Sounds like Smallville, USA. Pretty much everybody knows everybody. I've
4:16
Speaker 1: like mister Rogers visions in my head, but okay, this
4:19
Speaker 1: is the Actually it turns into the opposite of that.
4:22
Speaker 1: So on December twenty first, two thousand and two, Brian Carrick,
4:27
Speaker 1: who was seventeen at the time. Another stock boy at
4:30
Speaker 1: VAL's Foods right Darren Johnsburg, Illinois, was reported missing by
4:34
Speaker 1: his mother, and the police determined that one of the
4:38
Speaker 1: last times he had been seen was the previous day,
4:41
Speaker 1: December twentieth, when he went to the store to pick
4:43
Speaker 1: up his paycheck, and then two days after that, the
4:46
Speaker 1: twenty second, the cops found blood spatter near a cooler
4:50
Speaker 1: that was used to store produce and a bloody fingerprint
4:52
Speaker 1: on the cooler's exterior door handle. Now DNA tests identified
4:57
Speaker 1: the blood spatter and the cooler as belonging to Bryan Carrick.
5:01
Speaker 1: The fingerprint and the blood the print was in that
5:04
Speaker 1: was on the cooler door handle or identified by DNA
5:07
Speaker 1: testing as belonging to Robert Render, who was another stock
5:11
Speaker 1: boy at Valves. As we've discussed, and witnesses told police
5:15
Speaker 1: that Render was president at the store on December twentieth,
5:18
Speaker 1: he quit his job, interestingly on December twenty second and
5:23
Speaker 1: dropped out of sight. You don't need to be Colombo
5:25
Speaker 1: to start to wonder what was going on there. But okay, now,
5:28
Speaker 1: other stock boys who were present on the day that
5:31
Speaker 1: Carrick was last seen, included you. The crime went unsolved
5:34
Speaker 1: for several years, and this poor kid, Krrick, his body
5:38
Speaker 1: was never found. Do we know or do we have
5:41
Speaker 1: a strong theory about what actually happened to Brian And
5:44
Speaker 1: how did Render convince them not to pursue him.
5:47
Speaker 3: It's a great question that's largely gone unanswered. The lion's
5:51
Speaker 3: share of the physical evidence indicated his involvement in this case,
5:55
Speaker 3: from fingerprints to DNA evidence. The victim's blood is on
5:58
Speaker 3: the top of his shoes that he was wearing the
6:01
Speaker 3: night of the crime. Everything that's undisputed links him to
6:04
Speaker 3: the case. Looking backward years later after civil depositions with
6:09
Speaker 3: the police department, and their defense always was that he
6:13
Speaker 3: wasn't a very big guy, and of course our defense
6:16
Speaker 3: was that if you're stabbing somebody, you don't have to
6:20
Speaker 3: be a big guy. And Brian Carrick and Rob Render
6:23
Speaker 3: were approximately.
6:24
Speaker 2: The same size.
6:24
Speaker 3: I would say Rob was just a little bigger than Brian,
6:27
Speaker 3: but for some reason, because I was a taller person,
6:30
Speaker 3: their opinion was that I was more capable of committing
6:33
Speaker 3: this crime.
6:34
Speaker 1: You're not a big guy, You're a slender guy. Will
6:36
Speaker 1: use skinny guy back then too.
6:38
Speaker 3: Yeah, I was about one hundred and forty five pounds
6:41
Speaker 3: one fifty maybe tops six', one SO i was a,
6:45
Speaker 3: skinny tall.
6:46
Speaker 1: Guy six years After brian characters, Appeared Rob render was finally,
6:51
Speaker 1: charged but only with concealing a homicide and not. Homicide,
6:55
Speaker 1: however during the interim years the case went. Cold in
6:59
Speaker 1: life moved.
7:00
Speaker 3: On, YEAH i graduated college and then me and my
7:03
Speaker 3: dad and my brother opened a supermarket on our own
7:07
Speaker 3: because the previous supermarket In johnsburg had more family members in,
7:11
Speaker 3: it and families were, growing so we decided to open
7:14
Speaker 3: our own supermarket and it was wildly.
7:16
Speaker 2: Successful.
7:18
Speaker 1: Well mario's life was going. Great an old high school,
7:20
Speaker 1: Acquaintance Alan, lippert was not doing as.
7:23
Speaker 3: Well now at this, TIME i hadn't Seen Alan lippert
7:26
Speaker 3: since probably junior senior year of high, school so four
7:30
Speaker 3: or five years had gone. BY i went off to.
7:32
Speaker 3: College he dropped out of high school and got really
7:35
Speaker 3: heavy into. Drugs he had just been released from prison
7:38
Speaker 3: and then gotten himself in some. Trouble he had drugs
7:41
Speaker 3: on him and he was looking at going back to
7:44
Speaker 3: prison FOR i think somewhere between two and four. Years
7:47
Speaker 3: and that is the beginning of what we call the
7:51
Speaker 3: dream confession in our, case Because Alan lippert claimed that
7:54
Speaker 3: he was sitting at his house one day at two
7:57
Speaker 3: o'clock or three o'clock in the, morning and then my
8:00
Speaker 3: car pulled into his driveway AND i told him THAT
8:03
Speaker 3: i needed to confess THAT i was involved in the
8:07
Speaker 3: murder Of Brian.
8:07
Speaker 1: Carrick according To, lippert in the fall of two thousand and,
8:11
Speaker 1: Six mario confessed that he had told one of the
8:14
Speaker 1: Larger stock boys Named Shane lamb to Intimidate brian for
8:17
Speaker 1: reasons related to drug, trafficking and quote things got out
8:22
Speaker 1: of hand end. Quote, Additionally lippert said That brian's body
8:26
Speaker 1: had been buried, locally but Then mario allegedly called his
8:30
Speaker 1: cousins From chicago to, exuom, dismember and relocate the body
8:36
Speaker 1: to a river In.
8:37
Speaker 3: Iowa the local police department At Alan lippert come into
8:42
Speaker 3: my grocery store wearing a wire AND i hadn't seen
8:45
Speaker 3: him in, years and he started asking me How i've,
8:49
Speaker 3: been how's my, family stuff like, that and then he's,
8:53
Speaker 3: like do you remember that night that you stopped over
8:56
Speaker 3: at my? House AND i was, like what are you talking?
8:59
Speaker 3: ABOUT i didn't EVEN i haven't seen you in a.
9:01
Speaker 3: While and it was really awkward.
9:03
Speaker 1: Conversation at this, Point mario was still completely unaware that
9:08
Speaker 1: he was a suspect in this cold. Case until the
9:10
Speaker 1: grand jury was.
9:11
Speaker 3: CONVENED i was told that they had a lead in
9:14
Speaker 3: the case and they needed help establishing. Timelines and THEN
9:19
Speaker 3: i was brought into the grand jury AND i walked
9:22
Speaker 3: in without an attorney BECAUSE i didn't THINK i needed.
9:24
Speaker 3: ONE i didn't do anything, wrong and of course there's
9:26
Speaker 3: three prosecutors cross examining you for over an. Hour every
9:30
Speaker 3: question is how did you Kill? Brian, Carrick where did
9:33
Speaker 3: you put the murder? Weapon where did you put his?
9:36
Speaker 3: Body why did you kill? Him And i'm just, answering, no, no,
9:40
Speaker 3: No i'm not involved in any of, this SO i
9:42
Speaker 3: keep saying.
9:42
Speaker 1: No mario still had no idea That lippert was the,
9:46
Speaker 1: Source so after the grand, Jury lippert wired up a
9:48
Speaker 1: few more, times and according To McHenry county Prosecutors Michael
9:52
Speaker 1: combs And Patrick, Knneely mario's grand jury testimony differed from
9:56
Speaker 1: the recordings With Alan, lippert and they charged him with
9:59
Speaker 1: nine counts of Per but something about the investigation piqued
10:03
Speaker 1: the interest of THE, fbi who Interviewed lippert about that
10:06
Speaker 1: fall night in two thousand and.
10:07
Speaker 3: Six THE fbi gave him a polygraph test and he failed,
10:12
Speaker 3: miserably and then when they asked him why he, failed
10:16
Speaker 3: he said it very well may have been a, dream
10:19
Speaker 3: and that he was drinking alcohol all day in excess
10:23
Speaker 3: of a case of beer in multiple, shots and that
10:26
Speaker 3: he was also high on mushrooms and he wasn't sure
10:31
Speaker 3: IF i really came to his house or.
10:33
Speaker 1: Not that was their, witness which might explain why the
10:37
Speaker 1: prosecutors were forced to drop seven of the nine counts
10:40
Speaker 1: before trial In august of two thousand.
10:42
Speaker 3: And, nine we were so confident in that they didn't
10:46
Speaker 3: have any. Evidence we actually paid an expert audio person
10:50
Speaker 3: to make the tapes more so you could hear them
10:53
Speaker 3: better once you removed all the background. Noise you just
10:55
Speaker 3: hear me asking him what the hell he's talking? About
10:58
Speaker 3: and why are you asking me? That what are you talking?
11:00
Speaker 3: About and then he tried to change the subject and
11:02
Speaker 3: then ultimately left the store after his attempt to frame
11:06
Speaker 3: me for a. Crime and then after we played it
11:08
Speaker 3: for the state's, attorney that's when they dismissed the. Counts
11:12
Speaker 3: but then, they of course they went to the media
11:14
Speaker 3: and said it was. Inaudible but, Yeah so then we
11:16
Speaker 3: proceeded the two counts that were remaining and we did
11:20
Speaker 3: a bench trial in front Of Sharon prater in Mckenry.
11:24
Speaker 3: County and up until this, point a bench trials not
11:28
Speaker 3: a lot of people usually elect those on a serious
11:31
Speaker 3: criminal defense. Case but ultimately we felt that they had
11:34
Speaker 3: absolutely no evidence because they did not have any. Corroboration
11:38
Speaker 3: they had the testimony of a three time felon that
11:41
Speaker 3: was looking to get out of an unrelated. Case that's
11:44
Speaker 3: saying that he isn't sure if it was a dream or,
11:46
Speaker 3: not and that he was on mushrooms and drink a
11:49
Speaker 3: case of. Beer that's the only evidence they, had so
11:53
Speaker 3: she dismissed. It she did a directed verdict.
11:56
Speaker 2: Acquittal.
11:56
Speaker 1: Wow NOW i have to, ask did you think that
11:59
Speaker 1: after That i'm not guilty, verdict that this was finally
12:02
Speaker 1: over and you can put it behind.
12:03
Speaker 2: YOU i, did AND i.
12:05
Speaker 3: DIDN'T i didn't because of the reaction of the. Prosecutor
12:09
Speaker 3: he slammed his hands on his, table and then when
12:12
Speaker 3: we were walking, out he, said this isn't.
12:14
Speaker 2: Over.
12:14
Speaker 3: Wow and then three months go by AND i am
12:20
Speaker 3: pulling out of the parking lot of the store AND
12:22
Speaker 3: i get boxed in by white. Expeditions they are, screaming
12:26
Speaker 3: get out of the, car get on the, ground get
12:28
Speaker 3: on the. Ground i'm laying on my, stomach handcuffed behind
12:31
Speaker 3: my back and shotguns drawn to my head and one
12:35
Speaker 3: of the police officers tells me you have been charged with.
12:37
Speaker 1: Murder wrongful conviction has always given voice to innocent people in.
12:50
Speaker 1: Prison now we're expanding that voice to. You call us
12:54
Speaker 1: at eight three three TWO o seven four six sixty
12:58
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13:00
Speaker 1: powerful often tragic stories make you feel, outraged, inspired. Motivated
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13:09
Speaker 1: in a future. Episode call US a three, three, TWO
13:12
Speaker 1: o seven four six SIX.
13:14
Speaker 3: X so it all stemmed From Shane. Lamb he had
13:23
Speaker 3: just been released from prison on an unrelated drug. Case
13:27
Speaker 3: they set him up on an operation Called Operation Lamb
13:30
Speaker 3: Chop believe Or. Not they got an undercover to ask
13:33
Speaker 3: him if he could find some, cocaine and when he
13:36
Speaker 3: was broke and just got out of, prison he agreed
13:39
Speaker 3: to selling, cocaine and then the undercover had him meet
13:42
Speaker 3: them in a high school parking. Lot, so now you
13:45
Speaker 3: have a person that's on parole for Two CLASS x
13:49
Speaker 3: felonies and he's looking at like fourteen years in The
13:52
Speaker 3: Illinois department Of. Corrections so now they put an unsurmountable
13:55
Speaker 3: amount of pressure on. Him and they, said, well here
13:58
Speaker 3: is the testimony of All lippert And lamb and the
14:02
Speaker 3: prosecutor met and they had concocted a.
14:05
Speaker 1: Story Shane lamb was granted full immunity for his, cooperation
14:09
Speaker 1: and In february twenty, ten they Arrested mario on Six
14:12
Speaker 1: velly murder counts as well as concealing a.
14:15
Speaker 3: HOMICIDE i think they just threw anything they could at
14:18
Speaker 3: the wall and saw what. Stuck this isn't a office
14:22
Speaker 3: that's known for being very. Ethical So BRIAN. T, landers
14:25
Speaker 3: who represented, me he previously was a state's attorney In
14:29
Speaker 3: Cook county and then went to become a judge In
14:34
Speaker 3: DuPage county and then came off the bench and took my.
14:37
Speaker 1: Case lander quickly poked holes In lamb's, story who alleged
14:41
Speaker 1: that he And karak sold weed From mario and that
14:44
Speaker 1: he Was mario's alleged, muscle standing at six foot and
14:47
Speaker 1: two hundred and forty. Pounds lamb alleged That mario called
14:50
Speaker 1: him into the store to Intimidate karrick and collect from
14:53
Speaker 1: him on the day he.
14:54
Speaker 3: Disappeared lamb's biggest quote was that If mario didn't, call
15:00
Speaker 3: THEN i wouldn't have been. There so what we did
15:02
Speaker 3: is we Got lamb's phone record in my phone, records
15:05
Speaker 3: and of course there's no phone calls between me And
15:07
Speaker 3: lamb at. All in, fact there's no phone calls for
15:10
Speaker 3: me to anybody during the time that they think this murder,
15:12
Speaker 3: happened and that gave him a.
15:14
Speaker 1: Stump the prosecutors dropped five of the seven, charges but
15:18
Speaker 1: they moved forward with two felony murder counts by unlawful
15:22
Speaker 1: restraint and by. Intimidation and the indictment read That mario
15:26
Speaker 1: quote or one for whom he was legally accountable while
15:30
Speaker 1: committing the forcible felony of, intimidation Struck karc in the,
15:33
Speaker 1: head causing his death end. Quote so they brought this
15:37
Speaker 1: case that was predicated on statements that had been impeached before. Trial,
15:41
Speaker 1: now since the defense didn't feel like the burden of
15:44
Speaker 1: proof was, met the strategy was to focus on cross.
15:47
Speaker 1: Examination they pointed out That lamb was lying about any
15:50
Speaker 1: phone calls that brought him to the, store but nonetheless
15:53
Speaker 1: he maintained that he was there in the cooler Under
15:56
Speaker 1: mario's direction and Punched karak in the. Face lamb, said,
16:00
Speaker 1: QUOTE i THOUGHT i knocked him. OUT i knock out
16:03
Speaker 1: a lot of. People mario grabbed me and said get
16:06
Speaker 1: out of. Here end.
16:07
Speaker 3: Quote my attorney Got Shane lamb on cross examination to
16:13
Speaker 3: say that he'll say whatever he's got to say to
16:16
Speaker 3: not go to, prison and he, said even lying about
16:19
Speaker 3: a murder, case and then he said, yes and then
16:21
Speaker 3: we were, like no further.
16:22
Speaker 1: Questions the state trotted Out Alan lippert again to talk
16:27
Speaker 1: about his alcohol and mushroom fueled fever. Dream this time he,
16:32
Speaker 1: added though That mario had told him that, Quote shane Hit,
16:35
Speaker 1: carrick but it was an accident end, quote again using
16:39
Speaker 1: the info from THE fbi. Interview mario's attorney shredded him
16:43
Speaker 1: on cross. Examination, now had they put on a defense
16:46
Speaker 1: beyond cross, examination Calling Rob render may have been a winning.
16:50
Speaker 3: Strategy the state put him on the witness list and
16:53
Speaker 3: we prepared for the cross, examination and then they just
16:56
Speaker 3: didn't call.
16:56
Speaker 1: Him, however the state did present a crime lab technician
17:00
Speaker 1: to talk about the blood evidence that Implicated Rob.
17:02
Speaker 3: Render when we had the state crime lab expert on the,
17:05
Speaker 3: stand my lawyers started asking, Him, okay you guys took
17:09
Speaker 3: how many? Swabs and he, said we TOOK i think
17:12
Speaker 3: it was like thirty. Six and then he, said, well
17:15
Speaker 3: are you sure it's not eighteen BECAUSE i only have
17:17
Speaker 3: eighteen that were, tested and he, said, no we took thirty,
17:20
Speaker 3: six but we didn't have all of them.
17:21
Speaker 1: Tested this meant that there was new evidence available that
17:25
Speaker 1: would further solidify renders. Guilt but Remember mario's charges were
17:29
Speaker 1: not about, violence but about who orchestrated the incident that
17:33
Speaker 1: resulted in. Violence and after two days of, deliberation eleven
17:37
Speaker 1: of the twelve jurors believed the state's narrative about drug
17:40
Speaker 1: dealing and musclemn and That mario was in fact guilty
17:44
Speaker 1: of murder by.
17:44
Speaker 3: Intimidation we thought that there was maybe one hold out
17:48
Speaker 3: that wanted to, convict and it was eleven to one
17:50
Speaker 3: the other. WAY i, mean they didn't have anything that
17:53
Speaker 3: put me in. It they didn't have a, motive an,
17:55
Speaker 3: opportunity any physical. Evidence it was not a situation WHERE
18:00
Speaker 3: i was Thinking.
18:01
Speaker 2: I'm going to be, Convicted so what DO i? Know?
18:04
Speaker 1: Though you know a lot more. NOW i, mean by the,
18:06
Speaker 1: way whoever that one person, IS i hope they're listening right,
18:09
Speaker 1: now because life slaver and for everyone's. Listening when you
18:12
Speaker 1: serve on a, jury be that, one you know WHAT i,
18:14
Speaker 1: mean stand. Up it's, inconvenient it can be, scary, intimidating
18:19
Speaker 1: it could take more of your. Time you're not going
18:22
Speaker 1: to get home as quickly to your family and the
18:24
Speaker 1: things that you. Love but you know what that person
18:27
Speaker 1: at least temporarily Saved mario's. Life so here we go
18:31
Speaker 1: to the third.
18:32
Speaker 3: Trial different, jury but we had actually more evidence that
18:36
Speaker 3: was helpful to.
18:37
Speaker 1: Me this, Time mario's team was going to mount a
18:41
Speaker 1: robust defense beyond cross. Examination first the remaining blood.
18:45
Speaker 3: Evidence the very first motion that we filed was to
18:50
Speaker 3: have all of the blood evidence examined by the state crime.
18:54
Speaker 3: Lab so those came, back and more of them Were
18:57
Speaker 3: render Than. Carrick so it's not like he had a
19:00
Speaker 3: little bit of blood at the crime. Scene he's got
19:02
Speaker 3: blood all over the place at the crime. Scene and
19:05
Speaker 3: the experts that looked at the photographs of the crime,
19:08
Speaker 3: scene they think it was a stabbing and they think
19:11
Speaker 3: That render cut himself with the, knife which is why
19:14
Speaker 3: there's multiple places.
19:15
Speaker 2: Where his blood is actually meshed With.
19:18
Speaker 3: Carricks so the sample had both of their blood on one.
19:21
Speaker 3: Sample and then, ultimately Though render's thumb print is In
19:24
Speaker 3: carrick's blood on the, wall and the print had to
19:28
Speaker 3: have been when the blood was, wet so it puts
19:30
Speaker 3: him at the actual scene of the. Crime so about
19:34
Speaker 3: a week after the local news, Media Northwest herald released
19:39
Speaker 3: an article that said that he had blood all over the.
19:42
Speaker 3: Place so, unfortunately in between the second and third, Trial
19:46
Speaker 3: Rob rendered overdosed on drugs on A i think it's
19:50
Speaker 3: called a hot, shot so it's like when you take
19:53
Speaker 3: caroin and cocaine mixed. Together but he was at a rehab,
19:57
Speaker 3: center which was. Interesting so he died at a re.
20:00
Speaker 1: Center as strange and shady as that, Sounds Rob render
20:04
Speaker 1: clearly was not going to be able to, testify but
20:07
Speaker 1: the blood evidence could tell that. Story, Meanwhile mario was
20:10
Speaker 1: out on bond when something truly extraordinary.
20:13
Speaker 3: HAPPENED i was at a bar And Shane lamb had
20:18
Speaker 3: been released from, prison and he walked up to me
20:21
Speaker 3: at the, bar and his conversation to me Is i'm
20:25
Speaker 3: really sorry that this is. HAPPENING i didn't mean for
20:28
Speaker 3: this to. HAPPEN i didn't think that Any jerry would
20:31
Speaker 3: ever actually believe. ME i was just saying WHAT i
20:33
Speaker 3: needed to say to get out of. Prison the state's
20:35
Speaker 3: attorney told me specifically exactly WHAT i should, say and
20:39
Speaker 3: fortunate for, me there's multiple witnesses, around and one being
20:44
Speaker 3: a criminal defense attorney that is not on my, case
20:47
Speaker 3: and somebody that was near me went and grabbed him
20:50
Speaker 3: as like you need to be over, here because you're
20:51
Speaker 3: an officer of the, court you should hear. This and
20:53
Speaker 3: this wasn't a situation Where lamb was. Intoxicated he had
20:56
Speaker 3: just gotten there AND i had just gotten.
20:58
Speaker 2: There it was, daylight and.
21:00
Speaker 3: He's sitting there, venting telling me and this whole group
21:02
Speaker 3: of people that he was forced to say all this
21:04
Speaker 3: stuff and that he didn't think the jury would believe,
21:06
Speaker 3: it and that all got entered into evidence in my third.
21:11
Speaker 1: Trial, wow it's quite a turn of. Events he happened
21:14
Speaker 1: to be in that bar and there happened to be
21:16
Speaker 1: an officer of the court.
21:17
Speaker 3: There video, camera video, camera we had it on video camera.
21:21
Speaker 1: Bar. Wow and it wasn't so noisy in the. Bar
21:23
Speaker 1: the video camera was able to pick it.
21:24
Speaker 3: Up the audio on that one was garbled because the
21:26
Speaker 3: bar obviously a loud. Place but then you see four
21:30
Speaker 3: or five people standing around just, listening and then you
21:33
Speaker 3: See Ed donahue on a camera sitting there listening to the.
21:36
Speaker 3: Conversation And ed's an. Attorney he was a former state's
21:39
Speaker 3: attorney and he was a criminal defense attorney in Mckenry.
21:42
Speaker 3: County so he's ultimately pulled into this case because he
21:46
Speaker 3: just was a patron of the local.
21:48
Speaker 1: Bar even with this bombshell impeachment, evidence once again destroying
21:51
Speaker 1: the testimony Of Shane. Lamb mario was tried for a
21:54
Speaker 1: third time In march twenty, thirteen but this time the
21:58
Speaker 1: unlawful restraint charge was which meant that the only charge
22:02
Speaker 1: he was now facing was felony murdered by.
22:04
Speaker 3: Intimidation of, course we alerted the judge that nobody in the,
22:09
Speaker 3: country nobody in common, law has ever been charged with.
22:12
Speaker 3: This so nobody In, England New, Zealand, australia any country
22:16
Speaker 3: that practices common, law has ever used intimidation as a
22:19
Speaker 3: predicate felony for. Murder and the judge's response was that
22:22
Speaker 3: would be an item for the appellate court to, decide
22:26
Speaker 3: so she wouldn't make a ruling on it and force
22:28
Speaker 3: us to proceed on that last.
22:30
Speaker 1: Count and before, trial the prosecutors did what they usually
22:33
Speaker 1: do when their case is this.
22:35
Speaker 3: Thin the morning that we selected the third, jury The
22:39
Speaker 3: States Attorney's office came to my attorney and, said if
22:43
Speaker 3: you can get your client to plead guilty to concealment
22:46
Speaker 3: of a, homicide which is A class two, FELONY i
22:48
Speaker 3: believe will dismiss the final murder, count AND i think
22:51
Speaker 3: at that time it already served two years in the county,
22:54
Speaker 3: jail SO i pretty much would addressed in and dressed
22:57
Speaker 3: out BECAUSE i had no criminal. Background BUT i was
22:59
Speaker 3: unwe willing to take a plea deal WHERE i admitted
23:02
Speaker 3: to concealing somebody's body WHEN i had nothing to do
23:05
Speaker 3: with the.
23:05
Speaker 1: Case so the state persisted once again presenting the evidence
23:10
Speaker 1: that had convinced eleven out of twelve jurors during the second.
23:14
Speaker 3: TRIAL i actually felt really confident going in because in
23:19
Speaker 3: the third trial we actually presented a defense in which
23:22
Speaker 3: we brought an attorney At donahue to. TESTIFY i understand
23:25
Speaker 3: that the state's main and only witness was being told
23:28
Speaker 3: what to stay by the, prosecution and that he admitted
23:30
Speaker 3: to lying and that none of that what he had
23:33
Speaker 3: testified to was. True but Also lamb's in the second
23:35
Speaker 3: trial he said THAT i told him to do, it
23:37
Speaker 3: but then the third trial he came back and said
23:39
Speaker 3: that he did it on his own and THAT i
23:41
Speaker 3: just happened to be there with.
23:42
Speaker 1: The defense that was mounted the blood, evidence bone, Record
23:46
Speaker 1: Shane lamb's, recantation and both states witnesses being destroyed on
23:50
Speaker 1: Cross it's really confusing how we're here speaking With mary.
23:54
Speaker 3: TODAY i had the feeling during the third trial that
23:58
Speaker 3: the jury pool was not Paying at ten we had
24:00
Speaker 3: an older. Jury every time that we looked over at,
24:03
Speaker 3: them it was like they were like, sleeping but not
24:06
Speaker 3: like resting their head on their.
24:08
Speaker 1: Arms it appears that the state was able to muddy
24:11
Speaker 1: up which should have been very clear waters for a
24:13
Speaker 1: very sleepy. Jury And, mario after fighting the state for
24:17
Speaker 1: now over six, years became the first person IN us
24:21
Speaker 1: history and common law history to be convicted of felony
24:26
Speaker 1: murder by.
24:27
Speaker 3: Intimidation when the judge read the, verdict people stood up
24:33
Speaker 3: and started screaming at the, jury asking them if they
24:36
Speaker 3: listened to any of the. WITNESSES i put my head
24:39
Speaker 3: down BECAUSE i just couldn't believe. It everybody was up in,
24:42
Speaker 3: Arms my parents were, crying and that the two prosecutors
24:47
Speaker 3: were high fiving each. Other and then the one prosecutor
24:51
Speaker 3: ultimately looked at me and, SAID i told YOU i
24:54
Speaker 3: was going to get.
24:54
Speaker 2: You told you it wasn't.
24:56
Speaker 3: Over the very next morning AFTER i was, Convicted Brian
25:18
Speaker 3: telander came to see me And he was obviously very,
25:22
Speaker 3: apologetic but also was just telling me he could not
25:25
Speaker 3: believe still that the jury convicted on that.
25:27
Speaker 2: Evidence he was pretty.
25:29
Speaker 3: BROKEN i think he actually told me that he lost
25:32
Speaker 3: faith in the justice system from that. Verdict and he
25:36
Speaker 3: said THAT i have talked to The states. Attorney they're
25:40
Speaker 3: willing to cut a deal with you if you can
25:43
Speaker 3: tell them where the body. Is SO i told HIM
25:45
Speaker 3: i had no idea where the body. Was so even
25:49
Speaker 3: AFTER i was, CONVICTED i still turned down a plea.
25:52
Speaker 3: Deal of, course IF i was actually responsible for this,
25:55
Speaker 3: CRIME i would have taken both opportunities.
25:58
Speaker 1: In Covering mario's. Case we had the opportunity to speak
26:01
Speaker 1: with his post conviction, Attorney Kathleen, zelner and she told
26:05
Speaker 1: us how she got.
26:05
Speaker 4: Involved his sister worked for a law firm downtown and
26:10
Speaker 4: she was RESEARCHING i guess wrongful conviction attorneys and she
26:14
Speaker 4: found me and THEN i met with. THEM i love his,
26:17
Speaker 4: family and you hear his, background and you know he
26:20
Speaker 4: already had a college. Degree and then the judge has
26:23
Speaker 4: such a horrible. REPUTATION i was all.
26:27
Speaker 3: In two days AFTER i was, CONVICTED i get called
26:31
Speaker 3: for a. Visit i'm at the McKenny County jail AND
26:33
Speaker 3: i walk into the visiting room AND i see a woman.
26:35
Speaker 3: THERE i had never seen her, before SO i, SAID
26:37
Speaker 3: i Think i'm in the wrong, room and she, Said,
26:40
Speaker 3: Mario i'm here to talk to. You my name Is Kathleen.
26:42
Speaker 3: Zelner i'm very interested in helping. You this evidence is
26:46
Speaker 3: so ridiculous THAT i think that we might be able
26:49
Speaker 3: to get the judge to vacate the conviction before even the,
26:52
Speaker 3: sentencing and then you'll have either a fourth trial or
26:56
Speaker 3: this will be.
26:57
Speaker 1: The end of.
26:57
Speaker 3: It we didn't think that was like a high, probably
27:00
Speaker 3: but it was a.
27:01
Speaker 1: Possibility, unfortunately that possibility did not come to, pass And
27:05
Speaker 1: mario was sentenced to twenty six.
27:07
Speaker 2: Years So i'm down In.
27:09
Speaker 3: Minard minard is a maximum security prison that is about
27:15
Speaker 3: an hour south Of Saint, louis AND i was living
27:19
Speaker 3: prior to all this about an hour north Of, chicago
27:21
Speaker 3: so it's about a six hour drive for my family
27:24
Speaker 3: to come and see. Me it's a max security, place
27:27
Speaker 3: so there's not a lot of. MOVEMENT i was in
27:29
Speaker 3: my jail cell twenty three hours a. Day in one,
27:32
Speaker 3: sense it's terrible that you're confined to a small space
27:35
Speaker 3: for twenty three hours a. Day but in another, way
27:38
Speaker 3: at least you're not open to getting attacked by a
27:41
Speaker 3: bunch of people that have been legitimately convicted of murder.
27:44
Speaker 2: OFFENSES i would say.
27:46
Speaker 3: It's probably the worst Place i've ever.
27:48
Speaker 2: Been wish it upon.
27:49
Speaker 3: Nobody but what they did have THAT i thought was
27:53
Speaker 3: good was a law. Library SO i just stayed to
27:56
Speaker 3: myself from the MOMENT i got there till the MOMENT i.
27:58
Speaker 3: LEFT i focused on case and tried to figure out
28:02
Speaker 3: how to get out of, there and did as much
28:04
Speaker 3: legal research AS i possibly, could and read as many
28:07
Speaker 3: books about the law AS i. COULD i thought that
28:12
Speaker 3: it would be prudent for me to use every moment
28:14
Speaker 3: THAT i had to focus on. Freedom even THOUGH i
28:17
Speaker 3: have a great, LAWYER.
28:19
Speaker 4: I didn't want to just sit there with the direct.
28:22
Speaker 4: APPEAL i wanted to, reinvestigate because In illinois you can
28:26
Speaker 4: file the post conviction and the direct appeal at the same.
28:29
Speaker 4: Time during that, investigation we found a former employee that
28:34
Speaker 4: had worked there that had discovered a pair of men's
28:36
Speaker 4: underwear in the women's restroom up in the. Ceiling the
28:41
Speaker 4: tiles had been removed and somebody had thrown it up
28:43
Speaker 4: there and it was, bloodstained and it turned out render
28:46
Speaker 4: had gone in that. Bathroom he was cut and. Bleeding
28:49
Speaker 4: it was his. Underwear he used that as a tourniquet
28:52
Speaker 4: to stop the, bleeding and then he threw it up
28:55
Speaker 4: in the. Ceiling and it turned out this employee that
28:57
Speaker 4: had discovered a pair of men's, underwear this kid's, father
29:02
Speaker 4: was a deputy. Sheriff so the father, said we got
29:05
Speaker 4: to take this over to the sheriff's office and turn it,
29:07
Speaker 4: in so they, did and then the police chief threw it.
29:11
Speaker 1: Away Jesus.
29:12
Speaker 4: Christ he admitted that in his civil, DEPOSITION i filed
29:16
Speaker 4: a post conviction petition along with the appeal so THAT
29:20
Speaker 4: i could put all the new evidence in that and publicize.
29:23
Speaker 1: It ABC's twenty twenty began looking into the, case And
29:27
Speaker 1: Shane lamb agreed to, participate where he gave a videotaped
29:30
Speaker 1: recantation while exposing state's Attorney Michael, combs, saying quote all
29:36
Speaker 1: of it was. False the state's attorney set it. UP
29:39
Speaker 1: i didn't have anything to do with. This maria didn't
29:41
Speaker 1: have anything to do with. THIS i would be indicted
29:43
Speaker 1: for murder IF i didn't. COOPERATE i was following What
29:46
Speaker 1: combs wanted me to. Say they just wanted to close
29:49
Speaker 1: the case end. Quote. Wow.
29:52
Speaker 4: Yeah and we planned all that with twenty twenty because
29:56
Speaker 4: that's one of my really good, Friends lisa's soul, away
29:58
Speaker 4: so we had given them like. Questions we thought he
30:01
Speaker 4: would give a, confession but if he'd do it on the,
30:05
Speaker 4: air that would be even.
30:06
Speaker 3: BETTER i can't THINK abc twenty twenty. Enough that show
30:11
Speaker 3: changed EVERYTHING i, thought because it really just undermined that
30:14
Speaker 3: conviction and it just ferreted out how bad the prosecutors.
30:18
Speaker 2: Are in Mckenry.
30:18
Speaker 3: COUNTY i, mean it's pretty bad when you have on
30:21
Speaker 3: national show saying that the prosecutors are coursing witnesses and
30:25
Speaker 3: telling them what to.
30:26
Speaker 4: Say that's how you get leverage with the appellate.
30:29
Speaker 1: Court at the time this, Aired mario's direct appeal was
30:32
Speaker 1: pending in a filing where the focus was insufficient. Evidence
30:36
Speaker 1: having the information that your jury appeared to have missed
30:39
Speaker 1: be broadcast nationally probably didn't hurt when a three judge
30:42
Speaker 1: panel made.
30:43
Speaker 3: Their Ruling september twenty, third twenty, FIFTEEN i got a
30:47
Speaker 3: call From kathleen's. Office my parents were in the room
30:50
Speaker 3: AND i THINK abc taped. It kathleen, said the appellate
30:54
Speaker 3: opinion came out and they overturned your, case and you
30:58
Speaker 3: are going to be a free. Man all three judges
31:01
Speaker 3: said that no reasonable juror could convict me based on
31:04
Speaker 3: the evidence that was.
31:05
Speaker 1: Presented somehow they still found. Twelve, yeah for your third.
31:09
Speaker 3: Trial they're saying there's twelve people that are. Unreasonable it
31:13
Speaker 3: makes it makes. Sense so at the, time AND i
31:16
Speaker 3: don't know if that's still the, case but at the,
31:18
Speaker 3: time this was only the fourth case to ever be
31:20
Speaker 3: overturned for insufficiency, evidence for specifically for no reasonable dur
31:25
Speaker 3: could convict base on the evidence that was.
31:26
Speaker 1: Presented i'm rarely at a loss for, Words, mario but
31:30
Speaker 1: this is one of those. Times but so let me
31:33
Speaker 1: just take a deep breath and then let's get to
31:35
Speaker 1: the good.
31:36
Speaker 3: Stuff so two days, LATER i am told That i'm
31:40
Speaker 3: going to be released by the. Guards So i'm packing
31:43
Speaker 3: everything up AND i go to the front. Door the
31:47
Speaker 3: warden is. THERE i actually asked the warden IF i
31:50
Speaker 3: could speak to her about running her facility more, efficiently and.
31:55
Speaker 2: She thought that was very.
31:56
Speaker 3: Odd she, said you're free to walk out the door
31:59
Speaker 3: AND i, said, YEAH i, know BUT i was brought
32:01
Speaker 3: up in a grocery store and we had a pretty large,
32:04
Speaker 3: business so in a very professional, manner SO i think
32:06
Speaker 3: you could address these issues and you guys would actually
32:09
Speaker 3: make more money. Too and it boiled all the way
32:11
Speaker 3: down to. Phones so there was only four phones available
32:16
Speaker 3: on the, yard but there's two hundred and fifty. PEOPLE i,
32:19
Speaker 3: said why don't you triple the amount of, phones because
32:21
Speaker 3: they're making ten dollars a phone call at the, time
32:24
Speaker 3: so it would be to their benefit to have more.
32:26
Speaker 3: Phones but also what happened is the gang's one of
32:29
Speaker 3: the biggest reasons they had power is they would control the.
32:32
Speaker 3: Phone SO i explained to, her why don't you triple
32:35
Speaker 3: the amount of. Phones you guys can make more, money
32:37
Speaker 3: you'd have less, fights and she acted like she had no,
32:40
Speaker 3: idea and then she was, like you're being, released see you.
32:43
Speaker 3: Later so my family brings clothes in to, me and
32:46
Speaker 3: THEN i walk out the. Door, kathleen she raised my
32:49
Speaker 3: hand up as we were walking down the stairs because
32:52
Speaker 3: we had defeated the. State after long rigorous wore thirteen
32:57
Speaker 3: years after the, disappearance.
32:59
Speaker 1: You and and we're close, though, Right So what did
33:02
Speaker 1: his thirteen siblings think of all.
33:04
Speaker 3: THIS i had spoken to a few of them during the,
33:08
Speaker 3: years and it seems like they're conflicted something That i'm.
33:11
Speaker 3: Responsible some. Don't some of the siblings thought THAT i
33:14
Speaker 3: knew what happened and THAT i wasn't telling them or
33:17
Speaker 3: wasn't coming clean to the police, department when in, REALITY
33:21
Speaker 3: i would have been the first one that would have
33:22
Speaker 3: because it would have absolved me from having anything to
33:26
Speaker 3: do with. This they were all really good. PEOPLE i
33:29
Speaker 3: feel terrible that this happened to. Them for, ME i
33:32
Speaker 3: wish they would have directed their energy more at being
33:35
Speaker 3: upset with The State's attorney's office for just having such
33:39
Speaker 3: an inadequate investigation in the local police.
33:42
Speaker 1: Department the reasons for that righteous indignation ended up on
33:46
Speaker 1: full display during the depositions For mario's civil.
33:48
Speaker 3: Litigation when we were deposing the lead, investigator he disclosed
33:53
Speaker 3: to us that he had never been to the police
33:56
Speaker 3: academy prior to this.
33:57
Speaker 4: Investigation, yeah BECAUSE i always start in those depths, with,
34:01
Speaker 4: well give us a little bit about your job.
34:03
Speaker 3: History three months before the, investigation he was working AT
34:07
Speaker 3: Ace hardware and he was let go for being an
34:10
Speaker 3: incompetent stock man and then walked into the police department
34:14
Speaker 3: and was told that they were looking for somebody part.
34:17
Speaker 3: Time he had never been to the police academy prior
34:20
Speaker 3: to this. Investigation he was pending he was going to.
34:23
Speaker 3: Go so a guy that was let go from THE
34:25
Speaker 3: Ace hardware because he couldn't figure out where to stock
34:29
Speaker 3: items correctly three months in is now in charge of
34:32
Speaker 3: a murder.
34:33
Speaker 4: Investigation he felt tremendous guilt because he really gave up
34:37
Speaker 4: everything in that. Deposition it was, like you, KNOW i
34:40
Speaker 4: never should have done.
34:41
Speaker 3: That and even their attorneys were just in. Awe and
34:45
Speaker 3: then we informed him that if you know somebody's innocent
34:49
Speaker 3: of a, crime you have what's called a duty to.
34:51
Speaker 3: Intervene and his response, WAS i didn't know THAT i
34:54
Speaker 3: could do.
34:55
Speaker 2: THAT i didn't know.
34:56
Speaker 3: THAT i could tell the state's attorney that do you
34:58
Speaker 3: guys have the wrong? Guy so, well, honestly the civil
35:01
Speaker 3: rights depositions made everything that happened over the years crystal,
35:06
Speaker 3: clear and you could see why it, happened and it
35:08
Speaker 3: just it boiled all the way down to if somebody's
35:11
Speaker 3: not trained to be a police officer and has no
35:14
Speaker 3: experience and has no idea what they're. Doing they should
35:17
Speaker 3: not be at a crime. SCENE i, mean he's at
35:19
Speaker 3: the crime scene touching everything without gloves on because he
35:21
Speaker 3: didn't know that you should put gloves.
35:23
Speaker 1: On if only Mckenry county managed to have the same
35:28
Speaker 1: standards AS Ace, HARDWARE i, mean can you imagine not
35:32
Speaker 1: to mention how the prosecuting Attorneys Michael combs And patrick
35:36
Speaker 1: McNeely had the same duty right they did to, intervene
35:40
Speaker 1: but in a, sick sinister, twist they somehow still felt
35:44
Speaker 1: it was appropriate for them to high five each other
35:47
Speaker 1: when you got.
35:47
Speaker 3: Convicted but karma works itself. OUT i, THINK i don't
35:51
Speaker 3: know if you guys have followed. Aftermath but the prosecutor
35:56
Speaker 3: that was the lead on this case ended up being
35:59
Speaker 3: fired and his pretty much incapable of finding a meaningful. Employment,
36:03
Speaker 3: interestingly because it's a small, town multiple people have sent
36:06
Speaker 3: me he can't control his, liquors so he falls off
36:10
Speaker 3: barstools and talks about how powerful he is in that little.
36:13
Speaker 2: Town has claim to fame was that he got a
36:15
Speaker 2: conviction with.
36:16
Speaker 3: Nobody he's willing to tell people this and actually as
36:20
Speaker 3: if it's an, achievement when really you should be ashamed of.
36:23
Speaker 3: Himself and then the second prosecutor is now the state's
36:28
Speaker 3: attorney of the, county but has had a number of.
36:32
Speaker 3: ISSUES i know he attacked his, wife the police were,
36:36
Speaker 3: called and just really become an embarrassment to the.
36:38
Speaker 1: State, meanwhile since his, Release mario graduated From Loyola Law
36:43
Speaker 1: school and was admitted to The Illinois State bar in twenty,
36:46
Speaker 1: nineteen all while settling his civil.
36:48
Speaker 3: Case SO i actually settled with The State's attorney's office
36:52
Speaker 3: and with the police department. Separately i'm one of very few,
36:56
Speaker 3: people if, Any i've never actually met any other wrongfully
36:59
Speaker 3: convicted people that actually settled with the state's attorney's office
37:03
Speaker 3: because they have absolute, immunity and they still settled with,
37:07
Speaker 3: me primarily because they were concerned about their, image the
37:11
Speaker 3: way that they were being portrayed in the, media AND
37:14
Speaker 3: i think that they were concerned if this went any
37:16
Speaker 3: further that their law licenses would be in.
37:18
Speaker 1: Jeopardy, Mario it's been a real joy for me to
37:22
Speaker 1: get to know you and to work with you on,
37:24
Speaker 1: cases And i'm just so happy that you have come
37:29
Speaker 1: through this and risen above. It so with, that we're
37:34
Speaker 1: going to go to closing, arguments where first of, ALL
37:36
Speaker 1: i thank you from the bottom of my heart for
37:38
Speaker 1: joining us and sharing your incredible. Story and Now i'm
37:41
Speaker 1: going to kick back in my, chair turn my microphone,
37:44
Speaker 1: off leave my headphones, on and close my eyes and
37:46
Speaker 1: just listen to anything else you have to.
37:49
Speaker 3: Say for as awful of a situation as it was
37:52
Speaker 3: that happened to, me the silver lining was AS i
37:56
Speaker 3: came out of this winning my civil rights lawsuit publicly
38:00
Speaker 3: embarrassing the state's attorney's, office AND i am a successful.
38:04
Speaker 3: Attorney in a weird, way this changed my life. Trajectory
38:09
Speaker 3: it's almost like if you watched the Movie back to The.
38:11
Speaker 3: Future the moment That Brian carrick disappeared changed my entire.
38:14
Speaker 3: Life and Now i'm sitting here as a criminal defense
38:18
Speaker 3: attorney working in post conviction unit In Cook, county And
38:23
Speaker 3: i've had a huge effect on a lot of my client's.
38:25
Speaker 3: Lives i've had people That i've had life sentences, vacated
38:30
Speaker 3: and it's alarming that this could easily happen. Again there's
38:33
Speaker 3: just so many incompetent people still involved and still in
38:36
Speaker 3: positions of power in that very, county and SO i
38:40
Speaker 3: try to talk to people about how important it is
38:42
Speaker 3: to actually pay attention to your local. Elections the people
38:46
Speaker 3: that you elect to be judge your state's attorney are
38:48
Speaker 3: often more critical to you than electing the, president because
38:52
Speaker 3: those are the people that can indict, you indict the wrong,
38:55
Speaker 3: person or choose to not charge.
38:57
Speaker 2: People it's a very very important. JOB i can't stress that.
39:01
Speaker 1: Enough thank you for listening To Wrongful. Conviction you can
39:11
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39:13
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39:16
Speaker 1: On Apple. PODCASTS i want to thank our production, Team
39:19
Speaker 1: Connor hall And Kathleen, fink as well as my fellow
39:22
Speaker 1: executive Producers Jeff, Kempler Kevin, wartis And Jeff. Clyburn the
39:26
Speaker 1: music in this production was supplied by three TIME oscar
39:29
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