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Why a Joint Account Can Be a Sign of Healthy Marriage · Masters in Business

• 0:02
  Speaker 1: Bloomberg Audio Studios, Podcasts, radio News. This is Masters in
• 0:11
  Speaker 1: Business with Barry Ritholts on Bloomberg Radio.
• 0:16
  Speaker 2: This week on the podcast, I have an extra special
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  Speaker 2: guest guest plural Heather and Doug Bonaparte.
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  Speaker 3: I've known Doug for ten years maybe something like that, and.
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  Speaker 2: Heather for a couple of years. When I went to
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  Speaker 2: their book party and dragged my brother.
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  Speaker 3: Alaw because he was in the neighborhood.
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  Speaker 2: We sat and had a conversation and I'm like, a
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  Speaker 2: book about couples money is going to be you know,
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  Speaker 2: it is what it is. And as we were chatting,
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  Speaker 2: I'm like, son of a gun, this is a really
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  Speaker 2: interesting topic for the podcast. I have to have them
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  Speaker 2: on and I thought this conversation was absolutely fascinating, not
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  Speaker 2: just about power dynamics within a relationship, but everything from budgeting,
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  Speaker 2: pre n up agreements, inheritance communication. Really this was really fascinating.
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  Speaker 2: I found it super interesting and I think you will
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  Speaker 2: also with no further ado my conversation with Heather and
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  Speaker 2: Doug Ponapart.
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  Speaker 4: Thanks for having us, Thanks for having us.
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  Speaker 2: So I've been excited to have you come talk about
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  Speaker 2: this since your book party because it is not the
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  Speaker 2: usual financial book. It is a lot of stories. You
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  Speaker 2: guys have interviewed hundreds of couples. But before we get
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  Speaker 2: to the book, I want to just dive a little
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  Speaker 2: bit into your backgrounds.
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  Speaker 3: Heather, you went to law school.
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  Speaker 2: At my alma Mada Benjamin and Cardosis School Law in
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  Speaker 2: New York City.
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  Speaker 5: I didn't know that.
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  Speaker 3: Yes, we both want there. Oh, I love that, not
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  Speaker 3: at the same time.
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  Speaker 2: And Doug, you got your MBA from NYU Stern. Very
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  Speaker 2: different career paths. Tell us what were the original plans.
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  Speaker 6: Well, the original plan for a for an elder millennial
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  Speaker 6: like myself, I think got thrown out the window, you know,
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  Speaker 6: during the Great Recession in two thousand and eight. So
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  Speaker 6: I was in law school when that happened. Yeah, and
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  Speaker 6: so I graduated in a very different labor environment than
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  Speaker 6: the one I entered school, and so my expectations were
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  Speaker 6: not met.
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  Speaker 5: I mean that's an understatement.
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  Speaker 6: So you know, I ended up in the world of
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  Speaker 6: commercial insurance, which shouldn't surprise you that that was not
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  Speaker 6: exactly what I went to school for.
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  Speaker 4: It. I loved commercial insurance, you know.
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  Speaker 6: What I ended up having, you know, having a fine
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  Speaker 6: career in that for over thirteen years, and I really
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  Speaker 6: liked learning a lot about risk, which we write a
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  Speaker 6: lot about in the book, but that was certainly not
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  Speaker 6: the path and the reason that I went there, And
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  Speaker 6: so much of my earliest money stories as a young
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  Speaker 6: adult were really wrapped up in the shame that came
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  Speaker 6: from graduating law school with six figures of student loan
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  Speaker 6: debt to a labor environment that was not welcoming to
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  Speaker 6: young lawyers.
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  Speaker 2: And the studies show you graduate into a recession, your
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  Speaker 2: lifetime earnings are actually lower than people who'll graduate into
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  Speaker 2: a boom, which is really interesting sort of thing. Doug
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  Speaker 2: Nba from NYU Stern, What was the plan?
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  Speaker 4: Yeah, so by the time I made it to grad school,
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  Speaker 4: I was still focused on building my own wealth management
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  Speaker 4: firm and building a book of business. I grew up
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  Speaker 4: the son of a certified financial planner, so I've done
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  Speaker 4: nothing else in my professional That was always the plan
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  Speaker 4: from start, was always the plan. That's what I was
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  Speaker 4: doing during college. Undergraduate went to New York City as
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  Speaker 4: a love story. Wanted to be with Heather, and that
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  Speaker 4: was October, literally October two thousand and eight. I'm getting
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  Speaker 4: off a plane that was really going on nothing was happening,
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  Speaker 4: so watching it all, he.
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  Speaker 6: Moved to New York City with a Duffel bag and
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  Speaker 6: a dream straight out of a movie.
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  Speaker 4: I shipped up three boxes and went to Sleepies on
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  Speaker 4: Fifth to get a bed that day, random roommate on Craigslist.
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  Speaker 4: My wife and I watched a whole bunch of rom
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  Speaker 4: coms over the holidays, and this is like the setup
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  Speaker 4: for one of them. We're leaving out you to meet
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  Speaker 4: as freshman at the University of Florida. So you guys
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  Speaker 4: been to get other since freshman year?
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  Speaker 3: Is that right?
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  Speaker 4: Since nineteen eighteen, nineteen, nineteen ninety eighteen nineteen, So it's
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  Speaker 4: one one hundred and thirty.
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  Speaker 6: No, But you know, and I think we make this
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  Speaker 6: point too then, and we're transparent about this.
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  Speaker 5: We're not perfect.
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  Speaker 6: I mean, Doug and I I would say, lived the
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  Speaker 6: life cycle of some marriages before even getting married.
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  Speaker 5: I mean, we had to figure.
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  Speaker 6: Out what it would look like to be adults and
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  Speaker 6: grow up together or apart. I mean they were a
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  Speaker 6: couple of years there where we didn't know whether we
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  Speaker 6: had a future together. When I went to New York City,
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  Speaker 6: he moved home to work for his father and.
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  Speaker 4: Here's home South Florida.
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  Speaker 2: Boker retone okay, broker an.
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  Speaker 3: Wow.
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  Speaker 2: So wait, so you meet when you're eighteen or nineteen
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  Speaker 2: years old. Just about when did you first start talking
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  Speaker 2: about money with each other?
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  Speaker 3: Was that way off in the future or was that
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  Speaker 3: an early conversation.
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  Speaker 5: It was not a conversation for a long time.
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  Speaker 6: I don't think we really started talking about money together
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  Speaker 6: until we it came back together and said, like, it
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  Speaker 6: was really after law school that we took a hard
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  Speaker 6: look at at each other and where we had been
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  Speaker 6: and where we were, and we said, we want to
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  Speaker 6: give this a real shot, we want to start our adult.
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  Speaker 4: Lives our shot together. Yeah, but we were observing money
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  Speaker 4: behaviors for our entire time, dating throughout undergraduate and probably
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  Speaker 4: me observing Heather more than Heather observing me. You're an
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  Speaker 4: only child product of divorce. Her story is shared in
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  Speaker 4: detail in the book. So I was, as the son
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  Speaker 4: of a financial advisor and working in an advisory practice,
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  Speaker 4: probably getting a lot more observation points on Heather than
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  Speaker 4: her on me. But to Heather's point, when we ultimately
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  Speaker 4: had decisions, joint financial decisions to make, such as sharing rent,
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  Speaker 4: the typical stuff that couples come together for I would
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  Speaker 4: say because we had those observation points around each other
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  Speaker 4: and obviously being together for so long before we needed
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  Speaker 4: to make decisions, it played in our favor and helped
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  Speaker 4: us navigate it. Although I don't think you or I
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  Speaker 4: I anticipated multiple six figures of graduate student loan debt
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  Speaker 4: as this big boulder we had to figure out how
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  Speaker 4: to move in our financial puzzle.
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  Speaker 6: And I don't think that he could have anticipated the
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  Speaker 6: weight that the debt would have on me. And you know,
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  Speaker 6: it's so interesting, and we interviewed a couple for the book,
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  Speaker 6: and I would say the same for Doug too, Like
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  Speaker 6: there's people who viewed debt, especially like debt from higher education,
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  Speaker 6: as you know, this is an investment in myself, It's
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  Speaker 6: an opportunity. It was a necessary evil to get where
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  Speaker 6: I need to go. That was not the message that
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  Speaker 6: I was telling myself. My debt was not some outside,
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  Speaker 6: you know, financial hurdle.
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  Speaker 5: My debt was me. It stood for everything that I wasn't.
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  Speaker 2: Really, I'm so shocked to hear. I mean, having read
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  Speaker 2: the book and I know you, not as much as
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  Speaker 2: I know Doug, but I know you. I'm really kind
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  Speaker 2: of surprised that that I can compartmentalize things like that.
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  Speaker 2: And just like I remember when we were young and
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  Speaker 2: broke and my wife used to sit there Sunday nights
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  Speaker 2: writing checks out and she's like, we don't have enough
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  Speaker 2: money to send all seven checks. I'm like, that's easy.
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  Speaker 2: Send the check, don't sign it to whicheverone and they'll
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  Speaker 2: bounce it back. And you know, you try and just
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  Speaker 2: remember which one you could do. You could rotate through
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  Speaker 2: seven and by then, hopefully we'll have a little more money.
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  Speaker 3: She was AGAs at that. I could not possibly care less.
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  Speaker 6: It's so interesting, And there were elements of it that
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  Speaker 6: we were totally okay with. Like I remember we first
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  Speaker 6: moved in together on the Upper West Side. We would
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  Speaker 6: go to Fairway to the grocery store, and we had
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  Speaker 6: like our set of like of very affordable meats that
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  Speaker 6: we could get every week. Every week, we ate the
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  Speaker 6: same things, and I packed us lunch every single.
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  Speaker 5: Day to go to work. And I was completely okay
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  Speaker 5: with that.
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  Speaker 6: But anytime there was a major financial decision we had
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  Speaker 6: to make her. Anytime there was even like the smallest
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  Speaker 6: hiccup with my student loan debt repayment, I mean, it
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  Speaker 6: would send me into these like deep emotional spirals and
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  Speaker 6: they were not just about the money.
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  Speaker 5: It was like I am.
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  Speaker 6: Worthless, I'm never going to get anywhere in my career.
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  Speaker 6: I can't believe I did this to myself, Like it
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  Speaker 6: really ran so deep.
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  Speaker 5: I was punishing myself.
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  Speaker 2: So there's a line in the book that I want
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  Speaker 2: to bring up here because it very much relates to
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  Speaker 2: what you're saying. Quote, most money conflicts aren't really about money.
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  Speaker 2: Explain what are they actually about?
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  Speaker 4: Yeah, it's so we have a whole first section of
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  Speaker 4: this book that touches on our beginnings. Right who we
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  Speaker 4: are in our relationship with money starts long before you
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  Speaker 4: meet your partner. It is the meals you shared with
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  Speaker 4: your family, where you went on vacation. Maybe it's some
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  Speaker 4: trauma you experience, or the socioeconomic status both from the
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  Speaker 4: side of being privileged, all the way to food insecurity
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  Speaker 4: or housing insecurity, our cultures, our religion. It is almost endless,
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  Speaker 4: the amount of touch points in our past that shape
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  Speaker 4: the way we feel about money, that we bring into
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  Speaker 4: our relationships, that we bring into our adulthood. When we
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  Speaker 4: are having an emotional response to money, it's usually not
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  Speaker 4: the number on the screen or the check your writing
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  Speaker 4: and the bill you can or cannot pay. It is
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  Speaker 4: something you're fixing it to that you've experienced. And if
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  Speaker 4: you can get to the bottom of that, if you
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  Speaker 4: can create that relationship, you're going to be that much
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  Speaker 4: better off in evolving and having a better financial relationship
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  Speaker 4: because now you've got to bring all that to your
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  Speaker 4: partner who also has all of that in their own
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  Speaker 4: unique way. And I think that right there shows you
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  Speaker 4: how difficult this particular topic is around love and money.
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  Speaker 2: So when you guys sit down with a couple to
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  Speaker 2: talk about money and financial planning, what's the biggest mistake
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  Speaker 2: you see, what are most couples, what's the biggest error
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  Speaker 2: that comes up time and again.
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  Speaker 5: They're not communicating.
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  Speaker 6: They're not communicating either substantively about these issues about they're
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  Speaker 6: not going deep enough to understand why.
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  Speaker 4: They feel the way they very surface level.
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  Speaker 6: Very surface level, and they're getting caught in these surface
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  Speaker 6: level disagreements. Right. It's these behaviors that happen over and
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  Speaker 6: over again because we're not taking the time to dig
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  Speaker 6: deeper to understand what's actually going on, Like what Doug
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  Speaker 6: just said, because That's how you build empathy for one another.
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  Speaker 6: You may not agree with the way your partner approaches it,
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  Speaker 6: but if you don't even understand why they feel the
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  Speaker 6: way they feel, you're never going to get past those
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  Speaker 6: squabbles over spending or about what you're saving for and
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  Speaker 6: being misaligned on your goals unless you're taking that extra
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  Speaker 6: step to really understand. Empathy builds that bridge in people communication.
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  Speaker 3: Doug, you want to say something.
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  Speaker 4: Yeah, I like putting examples and stories behind that. You
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  Speaker 4: have someone who does the shopping in a household. They
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  Speaker 4: come home with an extra bag of rice or we
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  Speaker 4: already have that item. The other partner gets very upset.
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  Speaker 4: We already have four chicken broths and you bought two more.
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  Speaker 4: Maybe you know, is it that they spent the money
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  Speaker 4: on two more boxes of chicken broth? Or is it
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  Speaker 4: because there were some issues with food security growing up
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  Speaker 4: and that is plaguing their identity around money, so they
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  Speaker 4: fight about the chicken broth.
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  Speaker 6: We did interview, Yeah, we interviewed someone who came from
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  Speaker 6: and I think it's a great example. Came from extreme
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  Speaker 6: adverse childhood experiences. They experienced homelessness.
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  Speaker 3: Abuse, living in the car, living in.
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  Speaker 6: The car, and one of the ways that played out
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  Speaker 6: in his young adult life was always over stalking his
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  Speaker 6: fridge and always overstocking his pantry because you never wanted
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  Speaker 6: to feel the safety. You feel safety and being overconsumptive
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  Speaker 6: as an adult.
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  Speaker 5: So just one example of how that shows up.
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  Speaker 2: I'm not a prepper, but we had plenty of paper,
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  Speaker 2: toils and toilet paper heading into the pandemic, which you
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  Speaker 2: write about. One of the things that shocked me in
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  Speaker 2: the book was the whole debate about joint accounts, separate accounts,
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  Speaker 2: hybrid I mean, to me, this is partnership blasphemy. I
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  Speaker 2: had to ask my wife this morning, hey, when did
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  Speaker 2: we set up our joint account? And she's like, don't
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  Speaker 2: you remember we were leaving for our honeymoon. We got
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  Speaker 2: married on a on a Sunday afternoon, We got home
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  Speaker 2: a Sunday, and then we got home at like six
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  Speaker 2: seven o'clock. We signed all the checks, gave it to
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  Speaker 2: our neighbor to deposit. That was our opening deposit and
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  Speaker 2: our joint account. Anybody I know that doesn't have. Everybody
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  Speaker 2: I know who's married disproportionately has join accounts if they're
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  Speaker 2: still married, and we went over the other day talking
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  Speaker 2: about this. Over all the couples we know that are divorced,
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  Speaker 2: how many of them did not have joint accounts, and
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  Speaker 2: a disproportionate number that we knew about because she's usually
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  Speaker 2: friends with the wife. I'm friends with osband, and sometimes
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  Speaker 2: we after divorce, you inherit.
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  Speaker 3: One side or the other.
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  Speaker 2: I don't understand how you can get married and not
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  Speaker 2: pull your assets pulled the fire financial responsibility, or at
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  Speaker 2: least the discussions about what are we spending, how much
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  Speaker 2: is a vacation, what are we spending on shoes or
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  Speaker 2: watches or whatever? And I'm genuinely shocked.
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  Speaker 3: That's a debate. What did you guys find.
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  Speaker 5: I would start with the caveat that.
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  Speaker 6: I think that there are legitimate reasons why people are
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  Speaker 6: apprehensive to join and pool all of their finances together.
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  Speaker 6: If it's a second marriage, or if somebody came from
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  Speaker 6: maybe an abusive family like there could be legitimate reasons why,
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  Speaker 6: or come from a lot of money, or come from
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  Speaker 6: a lot of money, which you know they.
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  Speaker 2: May have a separate trust or a separate account, but
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  Speaker 2: at the very least, isn't there a household account you're
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  Speaker 2: paying the mortgage, your rant, you're paying for vacations, clothes, food.
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  Speaker 6: Oh, we completely agree, completely agree with you on this
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  Speaker 6: that having a joint account puts you in the best position.
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  Speaker 5: To work as a team.
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  Speaker 3: You're partners, right, yes, communication.
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  Speaker 6: And also just the transparency right of being able to
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  Speaker 6: see what comes in and out and save for joint
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  Speaker 6: goals together.
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  Speaker 5: I mean, we talk about this.
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  Speaker 6: There's, of course there might be reasons why you don't,
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  Speaker 6: but there's no question that all that's gonna work.
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  Speaker 4: It's going to work at all the data points too,
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  Speaker 4: that your relationship will work out better in general and
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  Speaker 4: financially if you are taking a team approach to your finances. Imagine,
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  Speaker 4: you know, playing the same game on two separate fields.
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  Speaker 4: That's insane. What are you doing here? But there is
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  Speaker 4: one thing regardless of how you set it up, and
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  Speaker 4: I think in practice we always encourage clients to do
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  Speaker 4: what works for them. But the thing you need to
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  Speaker 4: have is transparency. You want to have your own individual count.
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  Speaker 4: You want to have your own individual count. You want
• 14:38
  Speaker 4: to chop up the expenses. By the way, that's scales
• 14:40
  Speaker 4: horribly when you start bringing family into Yeah, what are
• 14:44
  Speaker 4: you gonna do? Hey twenty five percent of the formula
• 14:46
  Speaker 4: because they make twenty five percent of the household income
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  Speaker 4: for the baby. This isn't this is crazy stuff. But
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  Speaker 4: if you have transparency and everyone has access to each
• 14:55
  Speaker 4: other's bank accounts, and you're doing these reviews and everyone
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  Speaker 4: knowes where everything is, sure, I could see pathways for
• 15:01
  Speaker 4: that working. But again I don't, and we would all
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  Speaker 4: agree this is not the most effective way to manage
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  Speaker 4: a household financial situation.
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  Speaker 6: And what we found in speaking to so many relationship
• 15:11
  Speaker 6: coaches and couples therapists and psychologists is that this money,
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  Speaker 6: this money topic actually translates to couple's therapy as well.
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  Speaker 6: The idea of yours, mine and ours. No one is
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  Speaker 6: saying that you need to come together as some homogeneous
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  Speaker 6: blob and now you're just one person and all your
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  Speaker 6: assets are.
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  Speaker 4: All your goals are the same.
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  Speaker 6: Cold you are supposed to maintain your individuality and have
• 15:34
  Speaker 6: individual goals whatever that may mean. If that could mean
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  Speaker 6: individual financial goals, we take no issue with that. Yours,
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  Speaker 6: mine and ours, it's the same in couple's work.
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  Speaker 2: Coming up, we continue our conversation with Heather and Doug Bonaparte,
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  Speaker 2: authors of the book Money Together, talking about writing a
• 15:52
  Speaker 2: book as a team.
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  Speaker 3: I'm Barry Rittults.
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  Speaker 2: You're listening to Masters in Business on Bloomberg Radio.
• 16:15
  Speaker 3: I'm Barry rid Halts.
• 16:16
  Speaker 2: You're listening to Masters in Business on Bloomberg Radio. My
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  Speaker 2: guests today are Heather and Doug Ponapart. They are the
• 16:22
  Speaker 2: authors of the book Money Together, How to find Fairness
• 16:26
  Speaker 2: in your relationship and become an unstoppable financial team. So
• 16:32
  Speaker 2: communication and transparency pretty straightforward and with a little hindsight obvious.
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  Speaker 2: What was the biggest surprise? What did couple say to
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  Speaker 2: you where you kind of looked across each other and said,
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  Speaker 2: what the hell is that about? Like?
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  Speaker 3: What shocked you?
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  Speaker 4: Heather would always say, and I would agree with her.
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  Speaker 4: Often the things that shocked us were the things that
• 16:52
  Speaker 4: were not being said. For example, you would ask a
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  Speaker 4: very forward question, or rather you would pick up do
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  Speaker 4: a lot of this so zoom, you'd pick up body language.
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  Speaker 4: You would see one partner zoning out or spacing out
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  Speaker 4: or not engaging. So those were all tells that there
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  Speaker 4: was something greater going on on that particular topic.
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  Speaker 2: So sort what sort of topics in gender that sort
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  Speaker 2: of response? Is it the full spectrum? Or were there
• 17:20
  Speaker 2: things that were like I could imagine credit card debt
• 17:24
  Speaker 2: and reckless spending being an issue, that's obvious.
• 17:31
  Speaker 3: What surprised you.
• 17:32
  Speaker 2: You know.
• 17:33
  Speaker 6: Where I saw this come up and I and I
• 17:35
  Speaker 6: it always caused me to kind of tilt my head
• 17:37
  Speaker 6: and want to know more was when you would see
• 17:40
  Speaker 6: one spouse it was typically a man who was running
• 17:45
  Speaker 6: his own business or an entrepreneur, and it really felt
• 17:48
  Speaker 6: like it was his show and the risks that he
• 17:53
  Speaker 6: were to be taking, and this happened more than once.
• 17:56
  Speaker 6: Felt like they really did not consider the family as
• 17:59
  Speaker 6: a whole. It fell very very much like, well, this
• 18:01
  Speaker 6: is my plan and if it doesn't work, burn it
• 18:03
  Speaker 6: all to the ground.
• 18:05
  Speaker 5: And you could.
• 18:05
  Speaker 6: See his wife sitting next to him like a ghast
• 18:10
  Speaker 6: but silent le aghast, Like you could see that it
• 18:13
  Speaker 6: was like she's like, you're right, like this this is
• 18:15
  Speaker 6: his ride and we are all I would say, along
• 18:18
  Speaker 6: with it, but being held hostage by it.
• 18:20
  Speaker 3: Wow.
• 18:20
  Speaker 6: And that that was where we saw this, the silence
• 18:23
  Speaker 6: and the body language play in. And I've said, Doug,
• 18:25
  Speaker 6: like we interviewed a couple folks who like had been
• 18:28
  Speaker 6: in bankruptcy for business ideas of theirs and that's fine,
• 18:32
  Speaker 6: but like the just the the lack of accountability to
• 18:36
  Speaker 6: the rest, to his partner and to his children, and
• 18:39
  Speaker 6: just saying well, and I'll try again, and and I'll
• 18:41
  Speaker 6: keep trying again.
• 18:42
  Speaker 5: Like what kind of roller coaster are you bringing your
• 18:44
  Speaker 5: family on?
• 18:44
  Speaker 6: If she doesn't feel like she has a voice to
• 18:47
  Speaker 6: even be part of this discussion that we're happening to.
• 18:49
  Speaker 4: Seeing someone without agency is not a good thing to
• 18:53
  Speaker 4: look at. It doesn't look good. And you can see
• 18:56
  Speaker 4: it if you're asking the right questions or you're a
• 18:58
  Speaker 4: financial professional and looking at that situation. Yeah, it's pretty ugly.
• 19:04
  Speaker 2: And I have to ask about this, since we were
• 19:06
  Speaker 2: talking earlier about dividing some household work and responsibility.
• 19:11
  Speaker 3: How did you do this work together? How did each
• 19:15
  Speaker 3: of you contribute? You work together as writing together a
• 19:19
  Speaker 3: different experience.
• 19:21
  Speaker 6: It's a journey, It was a journey barrier something. So
• 19:25
  Speaker 6: writing is a huge part of my life. I was
• 19:27
  Speaker 6: a journalism major in undergrad There was a very long
• 19:31
  Speaker 6: time of my life where I had only hoped to
• 19:33
  Speaker 6: get back to a moment like this where I could
• 19:35
  Speaker 6: use my words and my storytelling ability and my question
• 19:39
  Speaker 6: asking ability, which was hone three years as a lawyer
• 19:42
  Speaker 6: to write something like this, to find a way to
• 19:44
  Speaker 6: help people through my writing. So we always kind of
• 19:47
  Speaker 6: knew that I would be taking the lead when it
• 19:49
  Speaker 6: came to writing the words on the page of this book.
• 19:51
  Speaker 5: But Douglas and I.
• 19:52
  Speaker 6: Sat together on ninety percent of these interviews of the couples,
• 19:56
  Speaker 6: many of the experts, and the way that we would
• 19:59
  Speaker 6: do this is we'd have like a big picture meeting.
• 20:02
  Speaker 6: We would talk through different chapters. Eventually they all fell
• 20:05
  Speaker 6: into the five sections of the book, and then I
• 20:07
  Speaker 6: would draft it and I would put it to him
• 20:09
  Speaker 6: and I would say, does this one make sense.
• 20:12
  Speaker 5: From a practitioners standpoint?
• 20:15
  Speaker 3: Like?
• 20:15
  Speaker 6: Are we covering enough of the basis from a practitioners standpoint?
• 20:18
  Speaker 6: And two from a male lens. We wanted to write
• 20:22
  Speaker 6: a book. I think one of the greatest challenges in
• 20:24
  Speaker 6: writing this book was not us working together. We've worked
• 20:27
  Speaker 6: together in many different ways over the course of our careers,
• 20:30
  Speaker 6: but how do we write something that resonates with all genders.
• 20:35
  Speaker 2: So I know Doug's voice, which is kind of snarky
• 20:38
  Speaker 2: and funny, and I got the sense that you did
• 20:41
  Speaker 2: most of the writing in this at least in terms
• 20:45
  Speaker 2: of I don't want to say feminine, but it's a
• 20:48
  Speaker 2: gentle sensitive, the right word like empathetic, empathetic tone, which
• 20:55
  Speaker 2: I don't get from Doug's tweets. No, but here's the
• 21:00
  Speaker 2: the more interesting question. When you guys went through the
• 21:04
  Speaker 2: whole process of drafting and editing and writing.
• 21:06
  Speaker 3: The book, did it change it all?
• 21:09
  Speaker 2: How you guys talked about money with each other, how
• 21:11
  Speaker 2: you thought about it, Like reading the book might affects
• 21:15
  Speaker 2: on people. How did writing the book affect you too
• 21:17
  Speaker 2: as a married couple.
• 21:18
  Speaker 5: Oh, my goodness, in profound way, in profound ways, in
• 21:21
  Speaker 5: so many ways.
• 21:22
  Speaker 6: I mean, I will tell you that some of the
• 21:26
  Speaker 6: couples we interviewed completely change my perspective on what it.
• 21:30
  Speaker 5: Means to have enough.
• 21:31
  Speaker 6: Yeah, really, and that it was these were perspective shifting
• 21:37
  Speaker 6: relationships that we've made with some of these folks.
• 21:39
  Speaker 3: Give give us an example.
• 21:41
  Speaker 6: Well, on one hand, we interviewed many couples who objectively
• 21:45
  Speaker 6: on paper, live a very different socioeconomic life than we do.
• 21:48
  Speaker 5: They live in a lower cost of living area, they make.
• 21:51
  Speaker 6: It work on a lot less, and they they have love,
• 21:55
  Speaker 6: they have family, they have faith, they have a roof
• 21:58
  Speaker 6: over their head and they have enough. We asked every
• 22:01
  Speaker 6: couple that we interviewed, do you have enough? And the
• 22:03
  Speaker 6: answer said so much. And they gave us such perspectives,
• 22:07
  Speaker 6: so like, there are couples that on paper are living
• 22:11
  Speaker 6: a very different life than we are, you know, objectively
• 22:14
  Speaker 6: of less privilege. And they just were so happy and
• 22:18
  Speaker 6: content and proud of where they were. And I think
• 22:22
  Speaker 6: sometimes when you're an ambitious I'm dune and I are.
• 22:24
  Speaker 4: Both we'll flip it around. Right. We interviewed a lot
• 22:26
  Speaker 4: of people who are highly successful entrepreneurial building their second
• 22:30
  Speaker 4: maybe third business, and we asked that same question, don't
• 22:34
  Speaker 4: have enough? It was never enough. Tears really too when
• 22:39
  Speaker 4: they realize like, hey, we just reflected on all this
• 22:42
  Speaker 4: amazing stuff you did. You know, you're telling us you
• 22:45
  Speaker 4: don't have enough. And then kind of that moment that
• 22:47
  Speaker 4: pause where they realize like, oh my god, what is
• 22:50
  Speaker 4: my enough? Or they look at I mean, it ran deep.
• 22:53
  Speaker 4: Sometimes the family they didn't start the second child, they
• 22:56
  Speaker 4: maybe didn't have the time, they didn't get with their
• 22:59
  Speaker 4: spouse to enjoy something in their life.
• 23:01
  Speaker 6: I think that maybe one of the greatest things we
• 23:04
  Speaker 6: learned in it, and it made its way into the book.
• 23:07
  Speaker 6: Not only through those conversations, but we had conversations with
• 23:09
  Speaker 6: folks who were dealing with life threatening sickness or terminal illness.
• 23:14
  Speaker 6: And we realize that time is the greatest currency that
• 23:17
  Speaker 6: we have. Of course, and I know we can say it,
• 23:19
  Speaker 6: but to really believe it and feel it, and I
• 23:21
  Speaker 6: think that.
• 23:23
  Speaker 5: We embody that now in my life.
• 23:25
  Speaker 3: Let me float a theory at you about enough.
• 23:29
  Speaker 2: I think if you're in middle class or upper middle
• 23:31
  Speaker 2: class or lower middle class, the range is pretty tight.
• 23:36
  Speaker 2: Like upper middle class is a lawyer.
• 23:37
  Speaker 3: And accountant making a couple hundred grand.
• 23:40
  Speaker 2: Bottom of that group is somebody in civil service making
• 23:45
  Speaker 2: forty to fifty sixty grand. That's the range. Once you're
• 23:48
  Speaker 2: in the top ten to one point one percent, it's
• 23:52
  Speaker 2: from a million a year to billions. And no matter
• 23:56
  Speaker 2: how much money you have, there's always a tier above
• 24:00
  Speaker 2: it that seems to be gee. You know, if I
• 24:03
  Speaker 2: just made another million dollars a year, I could fly
• 24:05
  Speaker 2: private from succession.
• 24:08
  Speaker 5: Didn't Tom say that? In succession?
• 24:09
  Speaker 4: Yeah, Tom says it's a greg oh five million, you know, yes,
• 24:12
  Speaker 4: you know the worst kind of rich. There is not
• 24:16
  Speaker 4: enough to retire, you know, too much to do nothing.
• 24:19
  Speaker 4: You know whatever, too much to do nothing, not enough
• 24:23
  Speaker 4: to retire. Yeah, you know I love that show. But
• 24:27
  Speaker 4: going back to what this process did for us in
• 24:30
  Speaker 4: our relationship, you have tone, and I will chime in
• 24:34
  Speaker 4: and say for me personally and selfishly the amount of
• 24:38
  Speaker 4: work that needed to be put into myself in order
• 24:42
  Speaker 4: to Because this book is a product of major life
• 24:46
  Speaker 4: decisions Heather and I made three and a half years
• 24:49
  Speaker 4: ago to leave thirteen years of being a corporate attorney,
• 24:54
  Speaker 4: which was the very reason that stability, the benefits, the
• 24:59
  Speaker 4: sal That was the stability I needed to grow and
• 25:04
  Speaker 4: be the entrepreneur.
• 25:06
  Speaker 2: And I have to interrupt you. I have the exact
• 25:09
  Speaker 2: same experience. My wife was a teacher for thirty five years.
• 25:13
  Speaker 2: The firm launched in twenty thirteen. I didn't feel like
• 25:16
  Speaker 2: it was a risk, but at the very least, hey,
• 25:18
  Speaker 2: healthcare is covered.
• 25:20
  Speaker 4: Yep, all these.
• 25:20
  Speaker 2: Things you don't have to worry about. And I had
• 25:23
  Speaker 2: the conversation with my wife, are you okay? First of all,
• 25:26
  Speaker 2: changing careers from a lawyer to finance, but then hey,
• 25:30
  Speaker 2: I know I'm making a decent salary, but I want
• 25:32
  Speaker 2: to go do this on my own. I think there's
• 25:34
  Speaker 2: an opportunity here, and she was like, go for it.
• 25:37
  Speaker 4: Not to spoil the book, but I got very comfortable
• 25:41
  Speaker 4: after having reached certain goals in building the firm that
• 25:47
  Speaker 4: I probably would have kept feeling comfortable and having how
• 25:50
  Speaker 4: the continue being an attorney at her job forever.
• 25:55
  Speaker 6: Burying the lead here. Yes, that in that moment in
• 25:58
  Speaker 6: time was awesome. The time that we had two very
• 26:01
  Speaker 6: small children hit COVID hit, when we had an eleven
• 26:04
  Speaker 6: month old and a.
• 26:05
  Speaker 3: Four year old stuck at home.
• 26:07
  Speaker 4: That's full time.
• 26:08
  Speaker 6: I'm working a corporate job, corporate legal job in a
• 26:11
  Speaker 6: GC's office of a fortune hundred company from home, taking
• 26:15
  Speaker 6: care of our two children, and also moonlighting is Doug's
• 26:18
  Speaker 6: business associate for the firm which I've basically helped to
• 26:20
  Speaker 6: build from the ground up.
• 26:21
  Speaker 4: There's never been a day that I haven't done that.
• 26:23
  Speaker 4: She wasn't my co pilot helping me make critical decisions.
• 26:26
  Speaker 4: I was working, I was working three.
• 26:27
  Speaker 6: Jobs, and I was being stretched so thin that I
• 26:30
  Speaker 6: felt like I had completely lost myself in trying to
• 26:35
  Speaker 6: stay above water. And there was a moment where we said,
• 26:38
  Speaker 6: you know, we formed this whole cruise ship of our
• 26:42
  Speaker 6: life around servicing the risk that you were taking and
• 26:46
  Speaker 6: starting this firm.
• 26:46
  Speaker 5: But when is it about me again?
• 26:48
  Speaker 3: So let's let's talk a little bit about her, the
• 26:51
  Speaker 3: stories from your marriage.
• 26:52
  Speaker 2: And I have to ask, it's all narrative, no spreadsheets.
• 26:57
  Speaker 2: Why did you decide to tell this story in a
• 27:02
  Speaker 2: narrative format.
• 27:03
  Speaker 6: There's been too there's enough books on budgeting and spreadsheets tons,
• 27:07
  Speaker 6: enough people have tried to do it, and also.
• 27:09
  Speaker 4: Also also a perfect budget. It's not going to solve
• 27:12
  Speaker 4: much for the dynamics of your relationship with someone.
• 27:16
  Speaker 5: That's right.
• 27:17
  Speaker 6: There's a reason that folks have not read this book before,
• 27:20
  Speaker 6: and it's because doing this stuff is emotional work, it's
• 27:24
  Speaker 6: personal work. It requires understanding stories and hearing things you
• 27:29
  Speaker 6: may not want to hear. That goes way, way, way
• 27:31
  Speaker 6: deeper than the numbers. So we wanted to do something
• 27:34
  Speaker 6: that we felt like would really uncover the things that
• 27:37
  Speaker 6: weren't being said, Like, there was so many invisible moments
• 27:42
  Speaker 6: that I hope we made visible in this book.
• 27:44
  Speaker 3: So you bring a lot of therapists and psychologists and.
• 27:48
  Speaker 2: Couples counselors into the book. The question that was running
• 27:54
  Speaker 2: through my head as I was going through that is, Hey,
• 27:56
  Speaker 2: at what point should any couple get professionals will help,
• 28:00
  Speaker 2: be it working with a financial planner or go into
• 28:05
  Speaker 2: a couple's therapy or a shrink to help them work
• 28:08
  Speaker 2: out their emotional issues.
• 28:09
  Speaker 4: Yeah, so, you know, probably self serving statement here. I'm
• 28:12
  Speaker 4: all along on people using professionals to help them find
• 28:15
  Speaker 4: the time and the space and the agency to talk
• 28:17
  Speaker 4: about things that need to be discussed. But you know,
• 28:20
  Speaker 4: there's never a bad time. I think if you can
• 28:22
  Speaker 4: first recognize that you're going to need help finding the space,
• 28:27
  Speaker 4: finding the time right. Self starting is for me personally,
• 28:32
  Speaker 4: one of the hardest things that I struggle with, so
• 28:35
  Speaker 4: I'm always open to finding people who can help me
• 28:38
  Speaker 4: do that. But I think practically speaking, if you are
• 28:42
  Speaker 4: both wanting to improve and not being able to get
• 28:47
  Speaker 4: past step one, like every conversation you're having, Hey, let's
• 28:50
  Speaker 4: sit down and have our money date, our conversation, and
• 28:53
  Speaker 4: every time you've attempted to do that has resulted in
• 28:58
  Speaker 4: a fight or are.
• 28:59
  Speaker 6: You avoiding it for two months afterwards you didn't get anywhere.
• 29:01
  Speaker 4: Or you're not developed. What we want you to do
• 29:03
  Speaker 4: is develop a practice around talking about money with your partner.
• 29:07
  Speaker 4: To Heather's point, it's been eight months you were supposed
• 29:09
  Speaker 4: to talk three months after that first one. You're not
• 29:12
  Speaker 4: creating practice and discipline and consistency. If this is happening
• 29:15
  Speaker 4: you over and over again and the frustration, is there
• 29:18
  Speaker 4: time to start finding other solutions. Maybe outsourcing that to
• 29:21
  Speaker 4: a professional is the way to go. That could be
• 29:23
  Speaker 4: a financial professional, that could be a therapist, that could
• 29:25
  Speaker 4: be a marriage counselor or a financial therapist.
• 29:28
  Speaker 6: I mean, there are some folks that are carrying such
• 29:31
  Speaker 6: deeply rooted shame around money into their relationship. That's not
• 29:35
  Speaker 6: something your partner can unwind by themselves.
• 29:38
  Speaker 4: It's not their job to fix it. E.
• 29:39
  Speaker 3: You talk about money stories that people bring into a
• 29:43
  Speaker 3: marriage or relationship, what are some of the ones that
• 29:46
  Speaker 3: you know really resonated with you.
• 29:48
  Speaker 6: The stories that we heard, Yeah, you know, I think
• 29:51
  Speaker 6: stories that were steeped in people's culture, the cultural messages
• 29:56
  Speaker 6: that they brought into their relationship. There was a woman
• 30:00
  Speaker 6: from Taiwan who who received a higher education here in
• 30:05
  Speaker 6: the US, and she brought into her marriage these scripts
• 30:11
  Speaker 6: about what she could, what she felt like she deserved,
• 30:18
  Speaker 6: and what she was allowed to strive for in her life.
• 30:20
  Speaker 3: The woman who had to go home to settle her
• 30:22
  Speaker 3: father's estate.
• 30:23
  Speaker 5: No, no different woman.
• 30:26
  Speaker 6: We heard a little bit about her story in the
• 30:28
  Speaker 6: culture chapter of the book, but I just remembered her
• 30:31
  Speaker 6: talking to us about how she was always taught not
• 30:34
  Speaker 6: to live a small life, but to live like a
• 30:36
  Speaker 6: demure life, to not showcase her wealth, to not strive
• 30:40
  Speaker 6: for too much wealth. Perfect example, she graduated with a
• 30:44
  Speaker 6: grad degree from Columbia and she was waiting tables at
• 30:47
  Speaker 6: the restaurant down the street from her dorm, and she
• 30:50
  Speaker 6: was eating the leftovers off people's plates. She felt like
• 30:53
  Speaker 6: that was what she deserved. Like these are stories that
• 30:57
  Speaker 6: she carried into her relationship and trying to find a
• 31:00
  Speaker 6: way to like marry those messages with one somebody else's,
• 31:05
  Speaker 6: but to to like build a life that reflects both
• 31:07
  Speaker 6: of your values when you're kind of questioning what place
• 31:10
  Speaker 6: those values even have in your life, right, So somebody
• 31:14
  Speaker 6: one of the financial therapists that we spoke to, my
• 31:16
  Speaker 6: friend Asia Evans, I remember she said, people who carry
• 31:19
  Speaker 6: that into their adult relationship have to be asked, are
• 31:23
  Speaker 6: the circumstances in which you were taught those things actually
• 31:26
  Speaker 6: even present in your life today? And if you're answering
• 31:30
  Speaker 6: that question, No, well, there's stuff that needs to change.
• 31:33
  Speaker 2: So how do you have couples that have never really
• 31:37
  Speaker 2: had this money conversation? How do you have them take
• 31:40
  Speaker 2: the first step?
• 31:41
  Speaker 3: Where should they be beginning?
• 31:42
  Speaker 4: Yeah, so we are very long on We call them
• 31:44
  Speaker 4: money dates, you can call them whatever you like, but
• 31:46
  Speaker 4: you have to have a form in which you first
• 31:49
  Speaker 4: are sitting down to discuss things relating to your financial life.
• 31:53
  Speaker 4: And we talk about the best practices of having to
• 31:55
  Speaker 4: do this right. You don't start with the numbers. Typically
• 31:59
  Speaker 4: that's a great way to get someone to flee the
• 32:01
  Speaker 4: scene right then and there.
• 32:02
  Speaker 6: And that's why at the end of each section in
• 32:04
  Speaker 6: the book we offer a list of like eight to
• 32:06
  Speaker 6: ten conversation starters.
• 32:07
  Speaker 5: You don't need to do them all at once, you
• 32:09
  Speaker 5: don't even need to do them all ever, But the.
• 32:11
  Speaker 6: Point being conversation starters on how we start to learn
• 32:14
  Speaker 6: a little bit more about what's bothering the other person,
• 32:16
  Speaker 6: what they're carrying into the rem.
• 32:18
  Speaker 4: Sure, and what you do here instead of focusing on
• 32:20
  Speaker 4: numbers and talking about here's another one you don't want
• 32:23
  Speaker 4: to do, talk about what went wrong this quarter or
• 32:25
  Speaker 4: what's not working? Flip both those things around. What did work.
• 32:30
  Speaker 4: What are the wins you should be celebrating. We want
• 32:32
  Speaker 4: to build momentum here, talk about the goals that you
• 32:36
  Speaker 4: both share. I know if I say, hey, can we
• 32:38
  Speaker 4: talk about that vacation we want to go on. That
• 32:40
  Speaker 4: chair's pulling right up. We're sitting down, and I got
• 32:42
  Speaker 4: a nice way to then talk about the budget and
• 32:44
  Speaker 4: get into the numbers. Right. We almost do this categorically backwards.
• 32:49
  Speaker 4: And what we need to do is understand the rule
• 32:52
  Speaker 4: book for creating those consistent conversations that we need to
• 32:55
  Speaker 4: be having regularly. Little things, time and place matter right
• 33:00
  Speaker 4: at family rush hour, the time the kids come home
• 33:02
  Speaker 4: from school to just shy of going to bed, This
• 33:05
  Speaker 4: is probably the absolute worst time to conduct anything having
• 33:08
  Speaker 4: to do with our lives, let alone our financial lives.
• 33:11
  Speaker 5: You love that that was your favorite time to talk
• 33:13
  Speaker 5: about money.
• 33:13
  Speaker 4: I would one out of my three o'clock appointment when
• 33:16
  Speaker 4: we were marooned in our house, Heather, guess what, and
• 33:19
  Speaker 4: just like kids throwing food all over the place. One kid,
• 33:22
  Speaker 4: She's like, what do you got for me? Doug? This
• 33:24
  Speaker 4: is a great time to talk about this. It was
• 33:26
  Speaker 4: the worst geddy hanging out. Yes, she would return the
• 33:28
  Speaker 4: favor we're exhausted. It's ten thirty at night. She wants
• 33:32
  Speaker 4: to get into all the serious stuff. Where gas, I'm like,
• 33:35
  Speaker 4: I can't. I can't even keep my eyes open, let
• 33:37
  Speaker 4: alone follow along. So time and place matter. What do
• 33:41
  Speaker 4: you like to do together? Can you carve that out,
• 33:43
  Speaker 4: put it on the calendar, set the reminder, preschedule those meetings.
• 33:47
  Speaker 4: Do stuff you like to do. So I say, can't
• 33:49
  Speaker 4: wait to go do that? And you're not canceling that.
• 33:52
  Speaker 4: These are little things that when you build a practice
• 33:54
  Speaker 4: around them, go a very long way. Because if you're
• 33:57
  Speaker 4: doing this quarterly, and we suggest you do speak comprehensively
• 34:00
  Speaker 4: or not the data you're going to talk day to
• 34:02
  Speaker 4: day about money, week to week about money. We're talking
• 34:04
  Speaker 4: comprehensive view of your financial life on a quarterly basis.
• 34:08
  Speaker 4: That's not a lot of cracks at that. During the year, right,
• 34:10
  Speaker 4: you're getting four. Great, we now can divide by four.
• 34:13
  Speaker 4: So over multiple years, right, two years, eight, twelve, com
• 34:16
  Speaker 4: by four here, that's not a lot, but it's going
• 34:19
  Speaker 4: to take a very long time. These are long games.
• 34:21
  Speaker 4: Do you go to the gym one time after not
• 34:24
  Speaker 4: working out and find yourself in the best shape of
• 34:26
  Speaker 4: your life, No, you will be sore. Go to the
• 34:29
  Speaker 4: gym four times a week for six months. I can
• 34:31
  Speaker 4: almost guarantee you will be in the best shape of
• 34:33
  Speaker 4: your life. Do these quarterly meetings. Over three years, you
• 34:36
  Speaker 4: should have this figured out and you should be getting
• 34:38
  Speaker 4: there with your partner.
• 34:40
  Speaker 2: I love this quote from one of the chapter titles.
• 34:42
  Speaker 2: Being prepared is better than trying to predict what will happen.
• 34:46
  Speaker 2: Is that preparation, is that planning. Is this all part
• 34:50
  Speaker 2: of the same concept of getting people to talk having
• 34:53
  Speaker 2: them focus on this.
• 34:54
  Speaker 5: Absolutely.
• 34:55
  Speaker 6: I think that one of the hardest things for people
• 34:58
  Speaker 6: to do is except that we do don't know what's
• 35:00
  Speaker 6: going to happen, right, And I spent years dealing in
• 35:03
  Speaker 6: risk for work, and I think it's just really hard
• 35:08
  Speaker 6: to accept that you could do everything right and things
• 35:11
  Speaker 6: still may not pan out the way that you wanted
• 35:13
  Speaker 6: them to. But when we embrace that, we embrace that
• 35:16
  Speaker 6: there's ten different ways to get to the goal you want,
• 35:19
  Speaker 6: not just the one that you guys locked in on
• 35:21
  Speaker 6: five years ago and you hope this was the one
• 35:23
  Speaker 6: way we would get there, Because disappointment looks for space
• 35:26
  Speaker 6: closest to home, right, So if you're not making it there.
• 35:29
  Speaker 6: You're not those expectations aren't being met. We can't take
• 35:32
  Speaker 6: those five steps to get to that one financial goal.
• 35:34
  Speaker 6: I think you're taking it out of one another. You're
• 35:36
  Speaker 6: ginning to resent one another. But when you embrace this
• 35:38
  Speaker 6: idea that life is fickle, things are unexpected. We don't
• 35:43
  Speaker 6: know what's going to be required of us next year.
• 35:45
  Speaker 6: We don't know whose job is going to be stable
• 35:48
  Speaker 6: two years from now. Even though it feels great today,
• 35:50
  Speaker 6: everything's gravy today. We don't know two years from now.
• 35:53
  Speaker 6: When you embrace that idea of flexibility, fluidity, and being
• 35:56
  Speaker 6: nimble in your relationship, you're able to work better together
• 35:59
  Speaker 6: as a team and pick up slack for one another
• 36:01
  Speaker 6: when you need each other.
• 36:03
  Speaker 4: Do you want to know? You know when people say, oh,
• 36:05
  Speaker 4: enjoy the journey. You know you'll get to the end goal,
• 36:07
  Speaker 4: but enjoy the journey. The people that are capable of
• 36:10
  Speaker 4: actually enjoying whatever journey they're on are the ones that
• 36:14
  Speaker 4: have put themselves inflexible enough of a situation that when
• 36:17
  Speaker 4: life will never really hit you across the phase, I
• 36:20
  Speaker 4: guarantee you it will. It does it every single time.
• 36:23
  Speaker 4: Those who are more proactive in their response versus those
• 36:27
  Speaker 4: who are reacting and running around as if this is
• 36:29
  Speaker 4: the worst thing that ever happened. Those are the people
• 36:31
  Speaker 4: that are enjoying their journey. Hey, we knew something, you know,
• 36:34
  Speaker 4: something wild was going to take place. We have a
• 36:37
  Speaker 4: plan for that. Let's go well, great, change it up,
• 36:39
  Speaker 4: great example from our own lives.
• 36:41
  Speaker 6: We always knew that someday I had hoped to work
• 36:44
  Speaker 6: at the firm, and that we were going to do
• 36:45
  Speaker 6: our business together.
• 36:47
  Speaker 5: But the time in which that came about was because.
• 36:49
  Speaker 6: My corporate job very pretty suddenly wanted us back in
• 36:53
  Speaker 6: the office four days a week. It kind of came
• 36:55
  Speaker 6: out of the blue. We weren't prepared for it from
• 36:57
  Speaker 6: a childcare standpoint, and instead of you know, we could
• 37:00
  Speaker 6: have solved for it. We could have solved for it.
• 37:02
  Speaker 6: I could have gotten a babysitter, I could have gone back.
• 37:04
  Speaker 6: We looked at each other and we said, is this
• 37:07
  Speaker 6: the moment to accelerate this goal that we've always had?
• 37:10
  Speaker 6: Do we take this as a sign from the universe.
• 37:12
  Speaker 6: It was a little it was a little backwards from
• 37:15
  Speaker 6: what we were planning. We thought we had a couple
• 37:17
  Speaker 6: more years of runway before we would take this leap together,
• 37:19
  Speaker 6: but we took it and you know what, like it
• 37:22
  Speaker 6: was unexpected, but it worked out.
• 37:24
  Speaker 5: For now.
• 37:25
  Speaker 6: You know, everything's for now because we don't know what
• 37:28
  Speaker 6: two years from now will bring.
• 37:29
  Speaker 2: Huh, really really interesting. I mentioned there's a lot of
• 37:32
  Speaker 2: narrative letter storytelling in the book, but there was a
• 37:34
  Speaker 2: data point jumped right out of the book and grabbed me.
• 37:38
  Speaker 2: Fifteen percent or more of marriages today involve a prenuptial agreement.
• 37:44
  Speaker 2: Twenty five years ago that was less than five percent.
• 37:47
  Speaker 2: Oh yeah, that's a shocking change. What's behind it? Why
• 37:52
  Speaker 2: has this changed so much?
• 37:53
  Speaker 6: I think that there's lots of ways to obtain a
• 37:56
  Speaker 6: prenup now. I mean there's even companies now that are
• 37:58
  Speaker 6: offering more of a.
• 37:59
  Speaker 4: Prefect their platforms for this. Right, there are plots solid
• 38:04
  Speaker 4: for a prenup. But yeah, but now we've made it. Yeah,
• 38:08
  Speaker 4: we've made it frictionless.
• 38:10
  Speaker 6: You took the word out of my mouth. This has
• 38:11
  Speaker 6: become a frictionless process.
• 38:13
  Speaker 3: For app you through it.
• 38:16
  Speaker 5: Yes, yes, there's several but.
• 38:18
  Speaker 6: I think also the way that millennials feel about prenups
• 38:21
  Speaker 6: is that they're starting I think also this is anecdotal.
• 38:24
  Speaker 6: I don't have any data to back this up. But
• 38:26
  Speaker 6: I think a lot of us are products of divorce.
• 38:28
  Speaker 6: I think you have you have a generation, right, you
• 38:30
  Speaker 6: have a generation aging into adulthood and to marriages where
• 38:34
  Speaker 6: we've seen our parents.
• 38:35
  Speaker 4: Half millennials have watched their parents, you know, go through divorce,
• 38:38
  Speaker 4: and they're saying, well, I don't want to witness or
• 38:41
  Speaker 4: be a part of what I just saw them go through.
• 38:44
  Speaker 6: And I think so much now people understand that a
• 38:47
  Speaker 6: prenup is not setting your marriage up to fail. It
• 38:51
  Speaker 6: is outlining expectations for certain situations happening.
• 38:55
  Speaker 5: It's just a contract, right.
• 38:57
  Speaker 6: It can also outline certain expectations for during the course
• 39:01
  Speaker 6: of your marriage. It doesn't have to just be limited
• 39:03
  Speaker 6: to the dissolution of your marriage. And I think that
• 39:06
  Speaker 6: our generation in particular is very u is very keen
• 39:10
  Speaker 6: on opportunities to have our expectations managed, even with the
• 39:14
  Speaker 6: people that we love the most.
• 39:15
  Speaker 2: So there's a quote in the book that I've kind
• 39:18
  Speaker 2: of never really thought about, but you made me think
• 39:21
  Speaker 2: about it. Quote when you marry into money, the privilege
• 39:25
  Speaker 2: might come with strings attached.
• 39:27
  Speaker 4: Oh yeah, explain that absolutely. So speaking of expectations here,
• 39:32
  Speaker 4: So when you're married in the person who is marrying
• 39:35
  Speaker 4: in a family of you know, substance or wealth, right,
• 39:38
  Speaker 4: you're probably going to get to experience a number of
• 39:41
  Speaker 4: things that are a product of the family that you've
• 39:44
  Speaker 4: married into. It could be vacations, it could be here's
• 39:47
  Speaker 4: your house or a down payment on your house, and
• 39:51
  Speaker 4: you would think, well, that's really wonderful. Go give your
• 39:53
  Speaker 4: in laws, you know, a hug and a kiss for.
• 39:55
  Speaker 5: That, and it is really wonderful.
• 39:57
  Speaker 4: It is, yes, it is, it is, but I hear
• 39:59
  Speaker 4: a butt co But in many cases, this sets up
• 40:02
  Speaker 4: expectations now that this family has for this person. It
• 40:06
  Speaker 4: could be how they raise their kids. It could be
• 40:09
  Speaker 4: how you act and behave on vacations, how you spend
• 40:14
  Speaker 4: the idea that maybe your financial household isn't even your
• 40:18
  Speaker 4: financial household, it's there, So where's your agency? Where's your independence?
• 40:22
  Speaker 4: It sets up a lot of what ifs? Right, what
• 40:25
  Speaker 4: if this doesn't work out, where does that leave me?
• 40:29
  Speaker 4: What if I might lose my husband due to a
• 40:32
  Speaker 4: really sad state of affairs, then what am I going
• 40:36
  Speaker 4: to be supported? So setting expectations around this is critical
• 40:42
  Speaker 4: to the married and otherwise they're going to through the
• 40:46
  Speaker 4: entirety of their marriage, find themselves asking what if and
• 40:50
  Speaker 4: will I be okay? It's not a great way to
• 40:53
  Speaker 4: go into a long term committed relationship.
• 40:57
  Speaker 5: And I think some of this is really difficult to
• 40:59
  Speaker 5: talk because you're not just yes.
• 41:01
  Speaker 6: You can set certain expectations in terms of the mechanics
• 41:04
  Speaker 6: of some of these things, but like some of this is,
• 41:07
  Speaker 6: you have to observe how is your spouse with his parents.
• 41:11
  Speaker 6: How much have they financially supported him or her over
• 41:14
  Speaker 6: the years. What level of control have you observed them
• 41:19
  Speaker 6: trying to exert over that adult child of theirs in
• 41:23
  Speaker 6: exchange for the wealth and generosity that they're giving you.
• 41:26
  Speaker 5: Your family. We've seen it. We've all seen it. I
• 41:30
  Speaker 5: think you know you wrote.
• 41:31
  Speaker 2: Write in the book about and I have it all caps.
• 41:34
  Speaker 2: The family sort of a succession like wealthy family that
• 41:38
  Speaker 2: wants to control everything, control the relationship. They're holding all
• 41:43
  Speaker 2: the cash and they're manipulating everybody to get what they want,
• 41:48
  Speaker 2: not just outside in the world of whatever acquisitions are
• 41:51
  Speaker 2: going on, but within the family dynamics itself.
• 41:55
  Speaker 4: How do you deal with that? It's not easy. It
• 41:58
  Speaker 4: is not easy, And we keep coming back the obvious
• 42:00
  Speaker 4: answer of communication, transparency. It does require the person you
• 42:05
  Speaker 4: are marrying into the family member that you're marrying. You
• 42:09
  Speaker 4: have to find a way to become transparent and open
• 42:13
  Speaker 4: and honest about your relationship with them. This is not
• 42:17
  Speaker 4: the time to just sit there quiet and let this
• 42:20
  Speaker 4: happen to you. You have to be able to advocate
• 42:22
  Speaker 4: for yourself in some way because it is your life
• 42:24
  Speaker 4: and it's going to be a life that you share
• 42:26
  Speaker 4: together with someone. These are probably uncomfortable questions and conversations,
• 42:31
  Speaker 4: but what's more uncomfortable is when you don't address them
• 42:35
  Speaker 4: and something happens five ten years down the road, or
• 42:38
  Speaker 4: you have two three kids. You cannot put the toothpaste
• 42:41
  Speaker 4: back in the tube at this point.
• 42:43
  Speaker 5: And it's not to say that you should not accept
• 42:46
  Speaker 5: the generosity, right.
• 42:47
  Speaker 6: This is a wonderful thing, and there's many benevolent parents
• 42:50
  Speaker 6: that just want to see their child and their child's
• 42:53
  Speaker 6: spouse and their family succeed, and they want to offer
• 42:56
  Speaker 6: that generosity during the course of their life.
• 42:58
  Speaker 5: It can be a beautiful thing.
• 42:59
  Speaker 6: But having the conversations up front about what this means
• 43:03
  Speaker 6: do they want to have If they want to offer
• 43:05
  Speaker 6: to help you buy a house, do they believe that
• 43:07
  Speaker 6: they're entitled to help you look for that house. Are
• 43:09
  Speaker 6: there stipulations on around where that house needs to be?
• 43:13
  Speaker 6: Does it need to be in the town in which
• 43:14
  Speaker 6: you're the which the adult child grew up in? Are
• 43:18
  Speaker 6: there certain expectations that if they want to help pay
• 43:20
  Speaker 6: for the grandchild's college? Are there stipulations there as well?
• 43:24
  Speaker 6: But I think that one way to also, you know,
• 43:27
  Speaker 6: kind of pose and gauge how enmeshed the adult child
• 43:31
  Speaker 6: is with his parents is saying I would like for
• 43:33
  Speaker 6: us to have our own financial advisor. I would like
• 43:36
  Speaker 6: for us to grow our independent wealth as a family.
• 43:39
  Speaker 6: How do you feel about that? Say that to your spouse?
• 43:42
  Speaker 2: How do these big wealth gaps and it doesn't have
• 43:45
  Speaker 2: to be succession, it could just be reasonable wealth gaps?
• 43:50
  Speaker 2: How do they distort the power dynamics inside the relationship?
• 43:55
  Speaker 2: Forget the relationship of the couple to the in laws
• 43:59
  Speaker 2: or the parents within couples, How does that dynamic play out?
• 44:04
  Speaker 3: And what should be done about these sort of gaps?
• 44:08
  Speaker 4: Oh?
• 44:08
  Speaker 6: Well, I think that privilege cuts both ways, and that's
• 44:10
  Speaker 6: what we liked it. We write about privilege and the
• 44:14
  Speaker 6: many angles of it so that you can understand also,
• 44:17
  Speaker 6: like your socioeconomic conditions could have been great, but your
• 44:22
  Speaker 6: perception of them is what matters. We can't say, oh,
• 44:25
  Speaker 6: you grew up with more money than me, so you
• 44:27
  Speaker 6: had it easier, yet a silver spoon in your mouth
• 44:29
  Speaker 6: and your life was gravy and I had a terrible life,
• 44:31
  Speaker 6: and so none of your feelings around it with your
• 44:33
  Speaker 6: family matter.
• 44:34
  Speaker 5: That's something we dispel as well. Right, your story is
• 44:37
  Speaker 5: your story.
• 44:38
  Speaker 6: You don't know if you were partner who yes, may
• 44:40
  Speaker 6: have objectively grown up with greater privilege than you. You
• 44:43
  Speaker 6: don't know if they're carrying deep rooted expectations, like the
• 44:46
  Speaker 6: long shadow of the family name. It's that is a
• 44:50
  Speaker 6: heavy load to bear for some people. So I think
• 44:52
  Speaker 6: there are ways, like different ways this shows up in
• 44:55
  Speaker 6: a relationship. For another example would be like how that
• 44:58
  Speaker 6: privilege plays out in terms of your value use. You know,
• 45:02
  Speaker 6: what are you trying to accomplish together as a couple.
• 45:06
  Speaker 6: That may not be something that if you didn't grow
• 45:08
  Speaker 6: if you didn't grow up with privilege. Maybe your goals
• 45:11
  Speaker 6: and expectations are are I don't want to say, more limited,
• 45:15
  Speaker 6: but maybe they're more proximate, Like I want to build
• 45:17
  Speaker 6: a life that just involves not being strapped for cash,
• 45:21
  Speaker 6: us being able to afford at roof over our heads.
• 45:23
  Speaker 6: Then you have a partner who grew up with such
• 45:25
  Speaker 6: privilege they didn't even have to consider their salary when
• 45:28
  Speaker 6: they chose their career because they knew that there would
• 45:31
  Speaker 6: always be kind of this existential safety net available to them.
• 45:35
  Speaker 6: How do you marry those two, those two belief systems
• 45:38
  Speaker 6: together to kind of find a life that.
• 45:42
  Speaker 5: Can identify the meaning for both of you.
• 45:44
  Speaker 4: I would also add, in these situations, it's easier to
• 45:47
  Speaker 4: assume that these conversations will go down a road of
• 45:51
  Speaker 4: upsetting the family or something bad or negative. And I
• 45:55
  Speaker 4: just want for a minute to throw in the possibility
• 45:58
  Speaker 4: of it working out well, that a family would appreciate
• 46:03
  Speaker 4: the fact that their child and the person they're marrying
• 46:06
  Speaker 4: are forward thinking enough to make sure they're okay, that
• 46:10
  Speaker 4: everyone is comfortable. You know, the family isn't always ah
• 46:13
  Speaker 4: the evil rich family a lot of times. In fact,
• 46:16
  Speaker 4: I would argue, most of the times, this is all
• 46:18
  Speaker 4: out of love. This is all I love. And if
• 46:21
  Speaker 4: you don't approach and you don't ask, you'll never know.
• 46:23
  Speaker 4: We just assumed you were very happy with all this
• 46:26
  Speaker 4: wonderful stuff we've been doing for you and Ryan, we
• 46:29
  Speaker 4: didn't know it made you feel uncomfortable every time you
• 46:31
  Speaker 4: came on the cruise ship. Why didn't you say anything?
• 46:36
  Speaker 2: Coming up, we continue our conversation with Heather and Doug Bonaparte,
• 46:41
  Speaker 2: authors of the book Money Together, talking about writing a
• 46:45
  Speaker 2: book as a team.
• 46:47
  Speaker 4: I'm Barry Ritault.
• 46:48
  Speaker 3: You're listening to Masters in Business on Bloomberg Radio. I'm
• 47:05
  Speaker 3: Barry Ridults.
• 47:06
  Speaker 2: You're listening to Masters and Business on Bloomberg Radio. My
• 47:09
  Speaker 2: guests today are Heather and Doug Ponapart. They are the
• 47:12
  Speaker 2: authors of the book Money Together, How to find fairness
• 47:16
  Speaker 2: in your relationship and become an unstoppable financial teams. Last
• 47:22
  Speaker 2: pre nup question, I mean, it's a given that the
• 47:26
  Speaker 2: person who's marrying into the wealthy family should have their
• 47:30
  Speaker 2: own legal counsel. Is it fair for them to ask
• 47:35
  Speaker 2: the wealthy family to pay the bill for the lawyer?
• 47:40
  Speaker 4: Oh?
• 47:40
  Speaker 6: My goodness, I mean, I if you off the cuff,
• 47:44
  Speaker 6: I think it's fair. Okay, I think it's fair.
• 47:47
  Speaker 4: What's the worst that could happen?
• 47:48
  Speaker 5: What's the worst that can happen? In asking?
• 47:50
  Speaker 6: I think I think you prove a very good point
• 47:51
  Speaker 6: because again, like when we're talking about negotiating power.
• 47:56
  Speaker 3: And power diary can be giant.
• 47:58
  Speaker 6: You know, there's the lawyers who handle you know, Beyonce
• 48:00
  Speaker 6: and jay Z's prenup, and then there's Joe Schmoe down
• 48:03
  Speaker 6: the street and whatever. I don't think that it would
• 48:06
  Speaker 6: be unreasonable to ask that if we're entering into this
• 48:09
  Speaker 6: and that this is something that impacts not just me
• 48:12
  Speaker 6: and my spouse but also your family as well, that
• 48:14
  Speaker 6: maybe you'd be willing to subsidize.
• 48:15
  Speaker 5: A piece of this.
• 48:16
  Speaker 4: Heck of a way to broach the conversation by saying, Hey,
• 48:19
  Speaker 4: we've been doing all this work here pay the legal bill,
• 48:21
  Speaker 4: versus I want you to know we're going to do
• 48:24
  Speaker 4: some work here so everyone's comfortable we're taking care of
• 48:26
  Speaker 4: ourselves that you're comfortable. By the way, would you pay
• 48:29
  Speaker 4: the bill?
• 48:30
  Speaker 2: Very very different way you're phrasing it. So let's talk
• 48:33
  Speaker 2: a little bit about a state planning quote. People go
• 48:37
  Speaker 2: on a journey when they inherit money. I never really
• 48:40
  Speaker 2: thought of that, But explain what's the inheriting money journey?
• 48:45
  Speaker 4: Well, first and foremost, we love stats, right, Like, most
• 48:49
  Speaker 4: inheritances are five figure numbers.
• 48:52
  Speaker 2: Hey, grant yeah, book, the numbers you have, the median
• 48:56
  Speaker 2: was like forty five thousand dollars, but it's totally skew yeah,
• 49:00
  Speaker 2: by the very wealth inher.
• 49:03
  Speaker 3: One and the average person's inheritance is enough.
• 49:06
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 49:06
  Speaker 4: Yeah, So then you have to ask yourself, So, what's
• 49:10
  Speaker 4: really being inherited here? What's really being transferred from you know,
• 49:15
  Speaker 4: the decedent to the children or the heirs. And typically
• 49:19
  Speaker 4: it's obviously memory is and the experiences, both good and
• 49:23
  Speaker 4: bad that end up in the possession of the of
• 49:28
  Speaker 4: the child.
• 49:29
  Speaker 1: Of the air.
• 49:30
  Speaker 6: There's a quote and I it's slipping my mind, but
• 49:34
  Speaker 6: it's something like inheritance. Inheritances are the numeric symbolic delivery
• 49:40
  Speaker 6: of all you have left from someone.
• 49:42
  Speaker 5: And you wish you had more time, You wish you had.
• 49:45
  Speaker 6: More memories, You wish you had more moments and one
• 49:48
  Speaker 6: more chance for one more conversation. And so for people
• 49:51
  Speaker 6: that twelve thousand dollars as a bonus from your job
• 49:55
  Speaker 6: is very different from twelve thousand dollars from your mother.
• 49:58
  Speaker 2: So let's let's talk about what I think is the
• 50:01
  Speaker 2: most interesting trend I've seen in a state planning over
• 50:05
  Speaker 2: the past few decades, which is.
• 50:08
  Speaker 4: In giving the folks yep during lifetime.
• 50:10
  Speaker 3: Doing this while you're alive so you can enjoy it.
• 50:13
  Speaker 4: Yeah, I love it. I love it. That was a
• 50:14
  Speaker 4: big Wall Street Journal article a handful of years ago.
• 50:17
  Speaker 4: I absolutely love it. I see it show up and
• 50:19
  Speaker 4: practice quite a bit. Probably one of the nicer you know,
• 50:22
  Speaker 4: boomer mechanics in a state planning that I've seen happen
• 50:25
  Speaker 4: over the last few years. Yes, you should. You should
• 50:28
  Speaker 4: get to create these experiences while you're alive, you know,
• 50:31
  Speaker 4: and everybody can enjoy that. You see your hard working
• 50:35
  Speaker 4: millennial children dealing with the high cost of home prices
• 50:39
  Speaker 4: and they can't get ahead or settle down with their family,
• 50:42
  Speaker 4: and you want to step in and do some gift
• 50:43
  Speaker 4: things so they can afford it. I think it's probably
• 50:45
  Speaker 4: one of the most beautiful things out there, which that
• 50:47
  Speaker 4: happened to us here. It didn't happen all right. If
• 50:49
  Speaker 4: you know, guys, if you know anyone, let us know.
• 50:52
  Speaker 4: But you're seeing this trend emerge, and I'm seeing it
• 50:55
  Speaker 4: show up in practice. It's really a beautiful thing. And
• 50:59
  Speaker 4: also so sah. I don't know the particulars of these situations,
• 51:03
  Speaker 4: but good planning is good planning, you know, as a
• 51:05
  Speaker 4: financial advisor, where the rubber meets the road, and all
• 51:08
  Speaker 4: of the topics that we cover in comprehensive planning, estate
• 51:11
  Speaker 4: planning is the one. It's the biggest piece of all
• 51:14
  Speaker 4: of it at the end of the day. And what
• 51:16
  Speaker 4: you're doing here, it's about legacy. Right. So now you
• 51:19
  Speaker 4: have children and you have their parents creating these experiences
• 51:24
  Speaker 4: knowing they helped. Let me back up for a second,
• 51:27
  Speaker 4: just to give you an idea of how I truly
• 51:30
  Speaker 4: feel around the other way that this typically happens. It
• 51:33
  Speaker 4: is we're not going to talk to our children about money.
• 51:36
  Speaker 4: It's taboo. You know, you'll figure it out. Or the
• 51:39
  Speaker 4: worst one, we don't want to burden them today with this.
• 51:43
  Speaker 4: And it's so ironic.
• 51:44
  Speaker 5: That's really ones I really do.
• 51:46
  Speaker 4: Is it's so ironic because what you're going to do
• 51:49
  Speaker 4: xactly is the exact opposite of what it is. You
• 51:52
  Speaker 4: just said. You don't clue them into the estate planning.
• 51:55
  Speaker 4: Now you're dead, and not only did you leave a
• 51:58
  Speaker 4: burden too them.
• 51:59
  Speaker 2: The whole estate process, oh you're a beneficiary. Or by
• 52:03
  Speaker 2: the way, it's a lot of work. Even the best
• 52:06
  Speaker 2: plans are a ton of work.
• 52:08
  Speaker 4: And you see this all the time, like, oh man,
• 52:10
  Speaker 4: my dad did a really good job playing this out
• 52:12
  Speaker 4: five weeks of God, you know, it's it's insane while
• 52:17
  Speaker 4: all of that, all of this is happening here and
• 52:19
  Speaker 4: and it's just such a joke to take the line
• 52:22
  Speaker 4: that I don't want to burden my kids and then
• 52:25
  Speaker 4: literally burden them, you know, to no end, and you're dead.
• 52:29
  Speaker 4: You don't even get to see you know, think, thanks Mom,
• 52:33
  Speaker 4: thanks Dad. That was great. And it's a it's a disaster.
• 52:36
  Speaker 4: It's a disaster. So that's how I truly feel about it.
• 52:40
  Speaker 4: That's why these gifts during the lifetime I think are
• 52:43
  Speaker 4: just absolutely wonderful.
• 52:44
  Speaker 6: But it just goes to show that it works both ways, right,
• 52:47
  Speaker 6: Like we just spoke about the family where wealth, two
• 52:49
  Speaker 6: things can be true. Wealth can be used to control people,
• 52:53
  Speaker 6: and it can be used to show that you love
• 52:55
  Speaker 6: someone and to create legacy and and and deepen the
• 52:58
  Speaker 6: love that you have for your family.
• 53:00
  Speaker 5: Two things can be true.
• 53:01
  Speaker 2: So before I get to my favorite questions, I ask, well,
• 53:04
  Speaker 2: my guests, I just have to ask what what are
• 53:09
  Speaker 2: the other.
• 53:09
  Speaker 3: Red flags we haven't gotten to?
• 53:11
  Speaker 2: What do you think is the biggest issue that we
• 53:14
  Speaker 2: just haven't spoken about over the past hour.
• 53:16
  Speaker 6: Holding mistakes over your partner's head. A lot of people
• 53:21
  Speaker 6: do a lot of foolish stuff early in their adult life.
• 53:24
  Speaker 6: In your twenties, you make some mistakes. You carry a
• 53:26
  Speaker 6: little bit of consumer debt for you, but you know,
• 53:30
  Speaker 6: whatever happen, you yoload it in your twenties and you
• 53:33
  Speaker 6: had ten grand in credit card debt. Then you you
• 53:36
  Speaker 6: met your spouse. They helped you pay it off, and
• 53:38
  Speaker 6: now all they ever talk about is how you're not
• 53:41
  Speaker 6: good with money because because I helped you pay off
• 53:45
  Speaker 6: your debt. So I guess my point is not getting
• 53:47
  Speaker 6: over things that are just missteps, they're not mistakes in
• 53:50
  Speaker 6: your life holding them over your spouse's head, because what
• 53:53
  Speaker 6: that does is it erodes their confidence and it pulls
• 53:56
  Speaker 6: them away from being a meaningful participant in their financial lives.
• 53:59
  Speaker 3: Really really interesting.
• 54:00
  Speaker 2: All right, let's jump into our favorite questions we asked
• 54:02
  Speaker 2: all our guests, starting with and this is like our
• 54:05
  Speaker 2: speed round.
• 54:06
  Speaker 3: We only have five six minutes.
• 54:07
  Speaker 1: Love it.
• 54:08
  Speaker 3: Who were your mentors who helped shape your career?
• 54:11
  Speaker 4: Give you a hot take? You know, Heather and I
• 54:12
  Speaker 4: maybe to agree with me on this one. We really
• 54:15
  Speaker 4: had a lack of mentors in the beginning of our career.
• 54:18
  Speaker 4: We found ourselves really having to figure a lot out
• 54:20
  Speaker 4: for ourselves. And this isn't a flex er look out. Yeah,
• 54:23
  Speaker 4: look what a big boy.
• 54:25
  Speaker 5: We're in the market for mentors.
• 54:26
  Speaker 6: So if anybody listening would like to be our individual
• 54:29
  Speaker 6: mentors really love for me.
• 54:30
  Speaker 4: They came mid career into where we are today, friends
• 54:34
  Speaker 4: of ours for sure, but early on it was it
• 54:37
  Speaker 4: was lacking. I do view it as something where you know,
• 54:40
  Speaker 4: it built me up, it built some character here. But
• 54:42
  Speaker 4: if I'm being honest, I really wish I had someone
• 54:44
  Speaker 4: there to sit younger professional Doug down regularly and to
• 54:49
  Speaker 4: save some time and effort.
• 54:51
  Speaker 6: I had one woman, one female attorney who's was always
• 54:55
  Speaker 6: one grade level above me and has been a driving
• 54:59
  Speaker 6: force in my legal career and even brought me back
• 55:02
  Speaker 6: to a job in a soft landing after a tough situation.
• 55:05
  Speaker 5: So I had one mentor in my career.
• 55:07
  Speaker 3: So you give her name if you want to give
• 55:09
  Speaker 3: a shot.
• 55:10
  Speaker 5: Her name's Julia.
• 55:11
  Speaker 3: Julia. Let's talk about books. What are some of your favorites?
• 55:14
  Speaker 3: What are you reading currently?
• 55:16
  Speaker 5: You know, it's really hard I have to say, I
• 55:18
  Speaker 5: love to read. But this past year, when you're writing
• 55:20
  Speaker 5: a book, a book, it kills.
• 55:22
  Speaker 3: You other than the research you're doing, there's no pleasure reading.
• 55:25
  Speaker 6: Every book I read was a personal finance book. Although
• 55:28
  Speaker 6: I love cultural commentary because again like Journalist's Brain. I
• 55:32
  Speaker 6: read What Happened to Millennials by Charlie Wells, which I
• 55:35
  Speaker 6: really enjoyed as somebody who.
• 55:38
  Speaker 5: Oh it's he basically tells the story of.
• 55:42
  Speaker 6: Where we were post nine to eleven through the eyes
• 55:45
  Speaker 6: to present day through four different folks like and follow
• 55:48
  Speaker 6: them on their journey. It was just I thought it
• 55:51
  Speaker 6: was a brilliant commentary on where we were and where
• 55:54
  Speaker 6: we find ourselves, and it was it found a way
• 55:56
  Speaker 6: to like frame it all very positively on our future,
• 55:59
  Speaker 6: and I just I loved it. But I'm actually looking
• 56:01
  Speaker 6: forward to reading more nonfiction or more fiction this year.
• 56:05
  Speaker 6: And should I say it, I'm about to read the
• 56:07
  Speaker 6: heated rivalry books. Rachel reads Rachel reads books.
• 56:12
  Speaker 3: If you know you know I hear rivalry, I think
• 56:14
  Speaker 3: of Doris Karnes Goodman.
• 56:16
  Speaker 4: I don't know, Well, if you don't, if you know,
• 56:19
  Speaker 4: you know, last book I read, I have to go fiction.
• 56:24
  Speaker 4: I have to go sci fi. I have to escape
• 56:26
  Speaker 4: the world of business and final house. You know, we
• 56:29
  Speaker 4: write these books, and I know all our friends who
• 56:31
  Speaker 4: write them as well, but I like to escape. Like,
• 56:33
  Speaker 4: if I'm going to read, I'm going to enjoy it.
• 56:34
  Speaker 3: You're talking to a sci fi guy.
• 56:36
  Speaker 4: Hit me with long Overdue. I read snow Crash was
• 56:39
  Speaker 4: the last one I read.
• 56:39
  Speaker 3: Which, if you know, was the first read Neuromancer.
• 56:42
  Speaker 4: No, no, not yet, but a little gig here. It's okay,
• 56:45
  Speaker 4: I'm here for it, but you know your first uh
• 56:48
  Speaker 4: you know, I'll call in the metaverse before the metaverse
• 56:50
  Speaker 4: that that was really cool. Finally got it took me.
• 56:53
  Speaker 3: Can you remember which book the future is here? It's
• 56:56
  Speaker 3: just not evenly distributed? Is that snow Crash?
• 56:59
  Speaker 4: I don't think so. Okay, no, but that was great
• 57:02
  Speaker 4: for a video game guy who always dreamed of a
• 57:04
  Speaker 4: world that was, you know, alt reality. That was super cool.
• 57:07
  Speaker 3: And I read I'm assuming you read Ready Player one right, No.
• 57:11
  Speaker 4: I actually didn't have that. I haven't even watched the
• 57:13
  Speaker 4: movie because I wanted because I wanted to read snow
• 57:16
  Speaker 4: Crash before it.
• 57:17
  Speaker 3: So I was flying on a plane and sat down
• 57:21
  Speaker 3: with that book and we landed and I was done.
• 57:23
  Speaker 4: Yeah that, Yeah, I'm told that. I'm told that today
• 57:27
  Speaker 4: Simon for today, next flight Book?
• 57:29
  Speaker 3: Yeah, absolutely, thirty seconds. What are you streaming or listening
• 57:32
  Speaker 3: to these days?
• 57:33
  Speaker 6: Land Man?
• 57:34
  Speaker 5: Awesome show, you have to watch it. The Pit of course,
• 57:39
  Speaker 5: a little.
• 57:39
  Speaker 3: Too grizzly, fair enough, was like watching like this fall Out.
• 57:43
  Speaker 5: We watch a lot of sci fi.
• 57:45
  Speaker 4: Yeah, Fallout waiting.
• 57:47
  Speaker 3: Have you guys seen Three Body Problems?
• 57:50
  Speaker 4: I caught it?
• 57:51
  Speaker 3: I didn't.
• 57:52
  Speaker 4: We didn't go there. We love a lot of post
• 57:54
  Speaker 4: apocalyptic We watched a lot of pos Silo Fallout. Those
• 57:57
  Speaker 4: types of shows really really take us there.
• 58:00
  Speaker 3: Try Three Buddy Problems. I think it's Apple TV. I
• 58:02
  Speaker 3: don't remember that. It was really it was really worth seeing.
• 58:04
  Speaker 2: Final two questions, what sort of advice would you give
• 58:08
  Speaker 2: to a recent college grad interest in the career in
• 58:11
  Speaker 2: fill in the blank journalism, legal practice of financial planning.
• 58:17
  Speaker 4: Yeah, for talking personal finance and financial planning. You're playing
• 58:20
  Speaker 4: a long game here. Give yourself, Like, if you're going
• 58:22
  Speaker 4: to figure out how to get this career, going figure
• 58:24
  Speaker 4: out how to survive for like five to seven plus years.
• 58:28
  Speaker 4: It's just going to take that kind of time to
• 58:30
  Speaker 4: actually mature as a person in your life, So find
• 58:35
  Speaker 4: out how to do that. Play long game. This isn't
• 58:37
  Speaker 4: a one, two, three year learning curve. It's like a
• 58:39
  Speaker 4: five to seven year learning curve.
• 58:41
  Speaker 6: Keep a list of your wins, keep a running list
• 58:45
  Speaker 6: of everything good you do and all the value that
• 58:47
  Speaker 6: you bring to your organization. Carry that with you because
• 58:51
  Speaker 6: being your own self advocate is more important now than ever.
• 58:54
  Speaker 3: And I have heard women say that's especially important for them.
• 58:57
  Speaker 2: Critical versus men, blundering to things full of sale, undeserved
• 59:02
  Speaker 2: self confidence, and women often don't apply.
• 59:06
  Speaker 3: Let me man explain sexism to you. Women.
• 59:09
  Speaker 2: Also often, I've had a lot of women tell me
• 59:12
  Speaker 2: they haven't applied for things because they think I don't
• 59:15
  Speaker 2: check every box out of ten.
• 59:17
  Speaker 3: I have eight and a dude just like I have three.
• 59:20
  Speaker 6: But how hard I can't tell you how many men
• 59:22
  Speaker 6: I know have fallen up in their careers. Well, women
• 59:24
  Speaker 6: have told themselves that they aren't qualified for a positions.
• 59:27
  Speaker 6: So yes, keeping a running list and finding a way
• 59:29
  Speaker 6: to art to really articulate package that and show your value.
• 59:34
  Speaker 2: And our final question, what do you know about the
• 59:36
  Speaker 2: world of financial planning, investing, couples.
• 59:40
  Speaker 3: Money therapy today might have been useful. You know, back
• 59:45
  Speaker 3: in twenty years ago when you guys were really first ramping.
• 59:49
  Speaker 6: Up understanding that time and money are inextricably linked concepts
• 59:53
  Speaker 6: and how we spend our time is a currency when
• 59:56
  Speaker 6: we talk. So much of this work that we did
• 59:57
  Speaker 6: is about how we allow for up equity at home
• 1:00:01
  Speaker 6: to create greater sorry greater equity for women out.
• 1:00:05
  Speaker 5: In the world in particular, and the link between time
• 1:00:07
  Speaker 5: and money is critical.
• 1:00:10
  Speaker 4: I love that fair doesn't mean equal. Okay, yeah, okay,
• 1:00:14
  Speaker 4: solid fifty to fifty probably not a practical approach to
• 1:00:17
  Speaker 4: everything you do in life. Find out what your split is.
• 1:00:21
  Speaker 4: There are many couples out there who are happy with
• 1:00:23
  Speaker 4: eighty twenty seventy thirty. It works for them. What doesn't
• 1:00:26
  Speaker 4: work is when you're not talking about it. To find
• 1:00:28
  Speaker 4: out what fairness is in your relationship. That has helped
• 1:00:31
  Speaker 4: us out a great deal in the last fear.
• 1:00:32
  Speaker 2: Guys, this has been absolutely fascinating. We have been speaking
• 1:00:36
  Speaker 2: with Heather and Douglas Bonaparte, authors of the book Money Together.
• 1:00:41
  Speaker 2: If you enjoy this conversation, well check out any of
• 1:00:45
  Speaker 2: the six hundred we've done over the past twelve years.
• 1:00:48
  Speaker 2: You can find those at iTunes, Spotify, Bloomberg YouTube, wherever
• 1:00:53
  Speaker 2: you get your favorite podcasts.
• 1:00:55
  Speaker 3: I would be remiss if I didn't thank the Crack.
• 1:00:57
  Speaker 2: Staff that helps with these conversations to together each week.
• 1:01:01
  Speaker 2: Alexis Noriega is my video producer. Jean Russo is my researcher.
• 1:01:06
  Speaker 2: Anna Luke is my podcast producer.
• 1:01:09
  Speaker 3: I'm Barry Ridholtz. You've been listening to Masters in Business
• 1:01:14
  Speaker 3: on Bloomberg Radio