Latest / Specialty Matcha Podcast / Uji and Yame 2025 with Jacque & Matcha

Transcript

Uji and Yame 2025 with Jacque & Matcha · Specialty Matcha Podcast

0:00
Hello, and welcome to the Specialty Match Podcast.
0:02
My name is Ryan and this is Michael Ho Zangjun, who also
0:05
goes by Sam. Hello.
0:06
Hello. And we're the cofounders of
0:08
Sanko Matcha Products. Yeah.
0:09
We launched this podcast to discuss our learning journey,
0:11
Matcha, share startup stories and interview experts.
0:15
And today we have Jack joining us from Jack and Masha.
0:18
Welcome back, Jack. Hi, it's good to be back it.
0:21
Was great to finally meet you in person in Kyoto, that was
0:24
special. Yes, I really had a great time
0:27
you guys and thank you for everything, for even taking me
0:29
around. Our pleasure, our pleasure it
0:33
was, it was a fun day. Yeah, like because of that trip,
0:39
I really wanted to make sure that I get to visit every
0:42
harvest season. Just I feel like, wow, the city
0:46
is just filled with the people. Yeah, it is the number of like
0:51
matcha founders that we got to meet with over the course of two
0:55
weeks. I think we met like 8-9 or ten.
0:57
Like it's like everyone like descends on this place.
1:01
I which you know this, I don't know if it's a bad time for tea
1:04
farmers, but everyone to meet each other.
1:07
Everyone like has these like Internet like friendships but
1:10
like a new person that was that was special.
1:12
Yeah, and even like I met some of, I met a few people also.
1:19
I also started making new friends online, people that I
1:23
messaged me like, oh, you were in Kyoto too, but we didn't get
1:26
to see each other. And then now we're like, you
1:29
know, exchange messages online. So that was really good.
1:34
Nice. Yeah, and then I even told them,
1:36
I hope I get to see you the next time you guys come to Kyoto or
1:39
wherever because it's, I really like meeting new people,
1:43
especially in the tea industry. It's quite fun.
1:47
Yeah, me too. It's really special to meet in
1:51
person. So.
1:53
People are just in general are are great and it's rare because
1:57
something I realized both in like this podcast, but also
2:00
meeting people face to face is actually don't like a lot of us
2:05
don't get to have like inter industry friend conversations.
2:09
Yeah, they. All have the same problems, like
2:13
we're all like working to the same things.
2:15
And I, I know we all. We went to dinner with Brian
2:18
from Matsu Matsua. It was just a really special
2:21
conversation. I was even telling my my husband
2:24
about it, that dinner with Brian, I was like, it was so
2:28
great because we were just like geeking out about all things
2:31
Steve. We're talking about the business
2:33
side of things. We're talking about the farmer
2:35
side of things. And I'm like, I don't really get
2:38
to talk to a lot of people like that way just because I don't
2:43
see them in person. And like, everything that we
2:46
talk about on the Internet, like on Instagram, it's quite short.
2:50
Yeah. It's really nice to go like deep
2:54
and just like go crazy and go geek out about tea.
2:57
And I feel like that there's just a general lack of, how do I
3:01
say opportunity, like or occasion for people to like,
3:05
geek out with. Each other.
3:08
It's. Yeah.
3:10
Go to have those moments, you know, to to happen in in real
3:13
life. And I feel like that's the only
3:16
really occasion that we, we can have, you know, very naturally
3:20
geeking out against each other. Absolutely.
3:22
So how is your sourcing trip? I guess it wasn't sourcing like
3:26
learning trip and meeting farmers and also getting to
3:29
interact with a whole lot of other tea people on that journey
3:32
as you went from place to place in Japan.
3:35
Yeah, so I've visited these farms before and I've met like
3:39
other people in tea before, but it was in a really small scale
3:43
and it was like I was the only one who planned it.
3:46
But this one being introduced to like certain farmers and
3:50
award-winning farmers too was really life changing and I am
3:57
not exaggerating. There were so many points in the
4:00
tour or in the trip that made me tear up.
4:05
I was just, I was just in awe that I get to see and experience
4:08
all these things, like first hand things that I've only read
4:12
about before or like seen photos of before.
4:16
But actually stepping in that place, smelling things, pleasant
4:22
or not, you know, feeling the heat inside the processing
4:25
facility, that was something else.
4:26
Tasting the tea right in front of the farmer, that is just
4:31
quite special. I feel like a tour is a tour,
4:35
right? Like if you just go to like a
4:38
place, this is what this is what we do.
4:40
This is what happens here. But to have like a more personal
4:45
conversation with the people who are there, that's different.
4:49
I feel like to be able to ask the the farmers what they feel
4:53
about certain things or like have them share, have them share
4:57
about their craft. So even if we had an
4:59
interpreter, which helped a lot. So Machiko San helped a lot.
5:03
But I feel like there's Even so much more that I, I, I wanted to
5:07
understand, but I couldn't because of language barrier.
5:11
Like I feel like they could, they wanted to share more at
5:14
least the people who were talking to.
5:16
So yeah. What was really cool about it
5:18
because, you know, we weren't on the tour, but it's a really
5:21
unique time because the set and setting is specifically for
5:26
learning. Like anytime in like anyone in
5:29
the matcha industry goes to visit farmers.
5:31
Like it's not explicitly commercial, but there's like
5:34
this undertone of a buying relationship.
5:38
Yes. We're trying to set up, but like
5:40
in a setting where there's that expectation doesn't exist on
5:44
either side necessarily. You can probably ask and be a
5:49
lot more curious and direct with questions that maybe would feel
5:53
more uncomfortable in like other settings.
5:56
Did you get that sense and like the other people that you were
5:58
with, how did the group engage in that relationship with these
6:02
farmers and, and it's specifically when like trying to
6:05
learn things from them. Like a lot of like questions
6:08
were brought up. Definitely what's great is that
6:11
Mark also asked us like if you have any questions, you can
6:14
prepare it beforehand. You know, this is the perfect
6:16
time to ask questions. So we really did prepare or at
6:20
least like in the moment, right as we were going through the
6:22
conversation, like you would ask questions and it was really
6:26
great because it's really just like, so how do you do
6:29
fertilization? Like what is present in your
6:32
fertilizer or like how labor intensive is it to like take
6:37
down the scaffolding after, like after you do shading, All of
6:40
those things that I think you would just glaze over if it was
6:45
just like a business conversation of like buying and
6:48
purchasing. So I feel like we were able to
6:51
ask them about a lot more things that would have been skipped if
6:56
it was just like a transactional thing, if that makes sense.
7:00
Yeah. No, that makes sense.
7:03
Even as little as like them showing us the anatomy of a tea
7:06
plant. I mean, come on, it's right in
7:09
front of you. They teach you, they let you
7:11
touch it, they let you taste it. It's something else.
7:14
So because I can only compare it to the other time that I've
7:17
visited the farm and that was just literally, oh, you go, you
7:21
can go take pictures. It's great.
7:23
You're in a tea field, but it's not like, it's not like you
7:28
staying there for a few hours And like, think of that because
7:33
it's so funny because we, the farmers were generous enough to
7:36
let us do the picking. And I know how hard that is in a
7:40
sense that we're all newbies. Imagine having like 20 people
7:44
pick your tea and then zero experience, right?
7:48
I'm pretty sure they had to sift through the tea that we picked
7:51
afterwards. It's like, and it's like double
7:53
labor. But it was such a generous thing
7:57
to have us experience that. So we were there for like
8:00
probably 2 hours in one farm and even if it was hot, nobody felt
8:05
it. Like we were always having good
8:07
conversation while we were picking tea.
8:10
And that was such a great, great moment.
8:12
Like, I feel like, yeah, that was like one of the highlights I
8:17
feel because I was able to get to know like the other people in
8:22
the tour that I was with and also get to do this like really
8:26
special thing of picking tea that is like a very rare
8:30
cultivar. So that to me was just, this is
8:34
insane, you guys. I can't believe this is
8:35
happening. So yeah.
8:38
That's very cool. You know, it's very interesting
8:42
because Mark from Oheka is the organizer of this trip and and
8:47
doing his organization. He kind of positioned everyone
8:51
as students, which at a time I felt that that to be a little
8:55
bit strange, but turns out like this is a wonderful strategy.
8:58
Like turning this into a more of an educational tour versus like
9:04
a quote, UN quote sourcing tool like really helps the farmers
9:08
and the manufacturers to open up.
9:10
I feel I really feel the same way with some of my other tea
9:13
trips too, which are not like necessarily very transactional.
9:16
We were there to learn more about tea and you know, the
9:19
farmers are much willing to share more information in those
9:23
kind of scenarios. Yeah, to be that.
9:27
We felt that too in a sense that when we when he addresses us
9:30
like students of the tour, we were kind of like, what do you
9:32
mean we're students? Like, this is a tour.
9:35
You know, it wasn't, it didn't feel that way in the beginning.
9:40
But then he explained to us after that, you know, we're all
9:43
students. It's it's students of like T And
9:47
he was trying to explain that, you know, even I am still a
9:49
student. So it's like a continuous
9:51
learning journey. And that kind of changed the
9:53
perspective that, yeah, we are here to learn.
9:56
We are here to like, get to know what happens behind, like each
10:00
car that served to us, right. And so, yeah, it was really
10:04
educational and very hands on. I feel I bet there's a lot more
10:10
things that we could have done, like asthma, asthma activities
10:14
are happening. We could have done this.
10:16
We could have done that. But like, I guess it's just us,
10:19
like trying to seal the moment more or like be able to maximize
10:25
everything because we're like, we're here and it's very rare.
10:28
Yeah, I'm excited. Like if this happens again, it's
10:32
like definitely a lot of learnings from this store,
10:36
right? Everything will be smoother in a
10:38
sense because you don't like when things are done for the
10:41
first time, when you pioneer something, of course there's
10:44
going to be struggle. But at least in a logistic
10:47
sense, if that was done, like if it was just Mark going to all of
10:51
those places, I'm pretty sure it would have been an issue because
10:55
he is like very like by himself, very agile, can move to one
10:59
place in another. But when it's a bigger group,
11:01
it's kind of like harder to manage.
11:04
But we were still able to all have communication and
11:09
relationship with the people that we visited, which I
11:12
appreciate a lot. So yeah, 'cause like he would
11:16
always encourage us, like to keep asking or approach them or
11:20
like seal things, you know, like come up, touch the leaves, touch
11:25
the shading, like touch everything.
11:27
So. Yeah.
11:29
What was the group dynamic like? Because I, I feel like it's like
11:33
a huge part of the experience of doing something like this.
11:36
It's just like being surrounded at all times by other people
11:40
that have like the exact same interest and like are like
11:43
willing to set aside at what was it like over a week of the money
11:48
to to, to learn more about matcha in a really intensive
11:53
way. I'm, I'm very jealous of like
11:56
the, the, the possibility of like forming a community like
11:59
that because like it's, it's rare that you have the
12:02
opportunity to spend that much time with that many people.
12:07
Yeah. Over something so specific.
12:10
It was really great and I feel like that's one of the best
12:14
things that I got from this tour because these are different
12:19
people who are interested in the from different countries.
12:23
So it was really amazing. I know you met some of them
12:25
during your podcast with Mark. So like one guy is from Czech
12:29
Republic, one guy is from Bangkok, another couples from
12:33
Hong Kong, and then a lot of them are from Mexico City and
12:37
then different parts of the states.
12:40
And they were all just there really curious about tea.
12:43
And some are just tea enthusiasts, meaning they don't
12:46
own businesses, while the others are business owners.
12:49
So it was also nice to be able to have conversations about the
12:54
struggles and doing a tea business with different people
12:59
around the world because I feel like we even tried.
13:03
We even made a chat group so that we could, like, consult
13:06
each other after the tour. Oh, that's cool.
13:09
Because we feel like, yeah, it was really great because we were
13:11
all like, we should like keep in touch because I'm pretty sure we
13:16
go through the same problems. What are some of the common
13:19
difficulties around the world that people are facing in the TE
13:23
community right now after talking to them face to face?
13:26
A bunch of things I feel like #1 for sure, especially in the
13:30
season would be like finding supply that's quite stable.
13:35
That's all of us for exchanging notes as to who, who do you
13:38
supply? Who do you get your supply from
13:41
or like how much fee do you have to buy or stuff like that?
13:46
So there's a lot of exchanging notes and contacts as to who we
13:51
know can supply a stable matcha powder supplies.
13:56
And then also, I guess educating the consumer base because I
14:05
would ask them like how knowledgeable are your customers
14:08
about tea? Like are they very particular?
14:11
Do they look for certain things? So one of the guys, Peter from
14:15
Chicago, he said they're into batcha, but they're not yet too
14:20
specific, meaning they're not very picky when it comes to the
14:25
cultivars or whatever. They don't ask that kind of
14:28
questions yet. While while other consumers are
14:31
like a little more how to call this curious, like they know
14:37
they have a basic idea as to how matches produced or like what it
14:41
takes for you to produce proper matches so they can ask
14:43
questions. So they do ask proper questions.
14:46
So you would also talk about actually doing workshops, like
14:49
what do you teach? What is the contents of your
14:53
workshop and all of those things?
14:55
And even like just basic, I guess business problems in a
15:01
sense of how do like is it that when you operate like a shop,
15:05
like what happens if this happens or like when you
15:07
encounter HR problems that say staff training and education?
15:12
So all of those things kind of came up at different times or
15:17
even as basic as like when did you start and how is rent and
15:21
how is like, you know, building a new space or renovating.
15:26
So those things are those things are the ones that we talked
15:30
about or at least touched on. So, and even some, some of us
15:33
are also like very curious as to how we can do, of course,
15:38
milling outside Japan, right? It's such a like a big obstacle
15:45
that a lot of the people in the tour group actually wanted to to
15:49
be able to do in their countries.
15:51
Apparently there's like a shortage for the stone mills
15:55
that are crafted in Japan. So just like any other, I guess,
16:01
industry and art form that a family would usually focus on
16:04
one thing and do it really, really well.
16:08
But just like the chasms, the number of families who are
16:12
actually making the stone mills are like dwindling, I guess.
16:17
So that's one of the issues like you can't find like meals or
16:23
can't order them right away. And also there's like factor
16:27
about like learning how to mail and all those things.
16:31
Yeah, that is 1 big conversation that we we talked about with one
16:38
of the tour members because we were like, oh, we really wanted
16:40
to do milling, but like it's so hard to source and also so
16:44
expensive and then bringing it to our country.
16:47
Like what it what if something happens?
16:49
Like how are we gonna fix it? Do we ship it back?
16:52
Yeah so stuff like that. And and they're not far.
16:56
Technically I am one of the closest who lives like I'm from
17:00
the Philippines, so I'm I'm, I'm just like what 3 hours away from
17:03
Japan? Meanwhile they have to travel
17:06
like 1214 hours to get there. So yeah, that's like a bigger
17:12
issue. So, yeah, and also weird, you
17:16
know, even if like I can't personally relate to it, we also
17:20
talked about like tariffs and how it's affecting businesses in
17:24
the States and even like so all of those things that we're all
17:28
like, my gosh, what the time to start the tea business?
17:32
And this is all happening at the same time.
17:35
There's shortage, there's sirens, there's shortage of like
17:38
even tin cans. Like, it's crazy, but having to
17:43
meet and talk to a lot of people made me feel like I'm not alone
17:49
and we're all going through this at the same time.
17:53
And we would also like, encourage each other that even
17:57
if all of these problems are like coming up, that we just
18:01
have to push through with it, that it'll get better.
18:04
And when you do something and you're at the beginning of it or
18:08
like pioneering something, of course it's going to get tough.
18:12
But like it'll like, it can only get better from here.
18:15
Like, yeah, we're produ. We're we're supplying tea to
18:19
wherever we are based. And there's a shortage.
18:22
But because of the demand that's happening right now, for sure
18:25
the farmers will be able to put up infrastructures in the
18:29
future, but that'll take a while.
18:31
But it's also because of our businesses that kind of like
18:35
made that happen. So you just kind of have to ride
18:37
it out. So all of those things like it,
18:42
it's crazy and it's encouraging weirdly that because we were
18:48
able to talk about the same struggles, we are also just got
18:51
inspired and be like, hey, you know what, whatever, we can do
18:54
it. And also getting inspired
18:56
because of the trip. I think that helps a lot because
18:59
it put like it put like a purpose to what we're doing.
19:04
There's passion, there's purpose to it.
19:06
It's not just like, let's let's put up a business about
19:10
something that's really popular right now.
19:11
It's it's not that. What's great is that everyone
19:14
who was there in the tour genuinely wanted to learn more
19:17
about tea and wanted to study so that they could definitely
19:23
understand it and share it with their customers in a better way.
19:26
And I really, really appreciate that, that we're all in the same
19:29
mindset almost. I think, hey, there's so much
19:33
misinformation, you know, like it's best to learn.
19:37
It's best to learn like where the source is at so that, yeah,
19:41
we get get to share the right information to the customers or
19:45
to the servos that we belong in. Absolutely.
19:48
There's nothing like Johnny Macho.
19:50
I think his tagline is no the source I.
19:52
Think yes. Really like that.
19:54
I really like the spirit of that and like physically being there
19:59
and like talking and tasting and spelling.
20:02
It just really makes it all become very real and.
20:07
Like, I don't know, I feel like it makes everyone like a bit
20:09
more like emotionally invested, like in that culture and
20:14
producers in these people, relationships, the traditions.
20:18
It's it's really cool. Every time we go back, I feel
20:21
like that gets a doubly reinforced.
20:25
It's producers because you guys went to both Uji and Yame.
20:30
Did you? What was the vibe differences
20:34
between those two places? Like I feel like Uji has their
20:40
own thing going on. They're meaning not only thing,
20:42
it's more of like their own struggles that they have to
20:45
face. Definitely one of them is
20:47
defending the, the, the, the name Uji Mancha because we met
20:52
with the 10th generation farmer Taishi San from Shimizu Farm.
20:59
And I really what's great is that he speaks English.
21:03
The conversations with him were super like detailed.
21:07
And he was able to share a lot with us, not just with farming,
21:11
but also like being able to put up his own cafe in Uji City.
21:16
So from there we learned a lot already.
21:19
But yeah, like he would share about the different struggles
21:21
that farmers go through. Farmers have based in Uji go
21:25
through. Like of course there's one is
21:28
land, like a lot of the things are being developed around Ugi.
21:32
So that means less farm lands for for tea to be to be raised
21:38
and cultivated, I guess. And then also like protecting
21:41
the name because Ugi tea is quite special and popular.
21:46
But as you already know, like not all tea that's labeled UGI
21:51
tea is actually grown and produced in UGI.
21:55
Yeah, very little. So right, like, so things like
21:58
that, like, and it kind of made me realize that wow, some of the
22:03
struggles go beyond the shortage, go beyond, you know,
22:09
global popularity. Like some struggles can actually
22:13
just be within that circle and it's already so tough.
22:19
So I feel like they're going through so many things.
22:21
But yeah, that's that's what I feel like in Uji, they have
22:24
those issues, right? And then in Yama, it's also
22:29
quite different. I see, like Yama is a little
22:31
more chill. OK.
22:33
And I guess it's also the location because when we visited
22:36
the farm in Uji, it was literally in the middle of like
22:40
a highway. So imagine like walking into
22:42
like a hot blue shaded tea farm and then right when you go
22:48
outside it's the highway or there's like a fly over above
22:51
your head. So it was definitely a different
22:54
vibe. So that was in Uji.
22:55
It's more city like. And then when we went to Yamai,
22:58
it, it was a lot more laid back as we were in the mountains.
23:02
It was super chill, super cool. So I feel like that's the vibe a
23:07
little bit. It's more, how do you feel?
23:10
It's more industrious feeling in Kyoto and in Uji, and in Yeah
23:18
May it was more relaxed. Yeah, and chill.
23:22
I'd like to just our experience a bit too, because we were
23:25
walking around the Shirakawa region of Uji and Gokeshaw
23:29
region, and like it's so sad. Like you can tell that this was
23:34
once agricultural land. Yeah.
23:36
Families are trying to hold on. There's like house goes up here,
23:42
highway cuts right through here, like it feels like it's just a
23:49
vestige of a very different time.
23:52
And like it's really sad that there's this gigantic Hwy. like
23:57
and this is like not just like this is all over Uji, like
24:00
they'll just right through like T fields and it's really sad to
24:06
see. Yeah, the amount of development
24:08
happened astounding over the past over the past few decades,
24:15
and a lot of the tea feels just vanished.
24:17
It's very sad. So, yeah, because I know that in
24:22
Taishi San's experience, I feel like some of the land that they
24:25
used to own to be used for public use, right?
24:32
Like for for roads and for like anything that the city would
24:35
need. So that means smaller lands for
24:37
them to be able to grow their teens.
24:39
So like, that's, that's sad. Feels like they have more room
24:42
down in Yamai and like everywhere else too.
24:46
In Wazuka they have so much room.
24:50
So yeah, when we visited Wazuka, that's also like a different
24:54
vibe all together. It's quite industrious, just
24:57
like Ugi, but it's like rolling hills of T Bush.
25:03
So it's also like a different vibe.
25:06
So yeah, yeah. But I feel like a lot of the
25:09
farms in Yammer are like very small, at least the ones we met.
25:14
Like their business is not like the Super commercial exporting
25:19
time. It's more of like family owned
25:22
small businesses, you know, And it's that made it a lot more
25:26
special to me actually. So yeah.
25:29
Differences in the processing facilities like because you guys
25:32
visited Hoshino and right and down in Yamai and they're
25:37
processing facility versus like the traditional Uji ones because
25:42
like you know, they say it's like roasty, toasty and Yamai
25:44
and then like, you know, umami and deep and rich and and Kyoto
25:49
Prefecture and in Uji, like did you notice that in the
25:53
processing and when they were describing the processing
25:56
differences at these facilities? After Kyoto, at least the ones I
26:00
noticed is that they have, well, it's also was present in Yemen,
26:04
but like they have like red brick ovens that they used to
26:08
dry the tea leaves. So I know like we touched about
26:12
this when we were talking with Brian that red brick ovens, what
26:19
do you call this? What do you call it?
26:20
Does it reflect infrared and does it?
26:22
Take, yeah, it's like infrared medium energy versus like just
26:26
like convection hot air. Yeah.
26:30
It's the SO infrared. So that one, like I was so
26:33
surprised to see the red brick ovens in person when we were
26:40
talking about it. Our trip hasn't started.
26:42
So it was like, OK, I've only seen these same pictures, so I
26:47
didn't really notice it. Like I mean, I didn't realize
26:51
the effect. But then the ones that we went
26:54
to actually uses red brick ovens.
26:58
It's been with them for a while. Differences.
27:01
Indeed, it's quite differences in processes, not a lot
27:05
different. OK.
27:07
What do you call this? I forget which area you're at.
27:11
Wait, can I check my notes? Yeah, sure.
27:14
Because there was 1 farmer that shared that he they make their
27:19
tea, they process their tea with a different temperature.
27:24
This was in Hoshino. OK.
27:27
Let me check OK, there I found it.
27:30
What they use they they called it that smell, that smell of
27:34
roastiness. They called it cowrie or
27:36
hikowrie. So in Yame, one of the yeah, one
27:42
of the producers shared that they actually like in, in I
27:45
think in Kyoto, they do like a process of drying, right?
27:49
But in Yami they do like a second, like they say that they
27:52
heat it again. OK.
27:55
So I feel like it goes through a second round of drying.
27:59
The second round of drying, he said, adds aroma to the to the
28:04
tension. OK.
28:05
So that is something that I took note of like when he shared it,
28:08
of course, like explaining it could have been better if we
28:12
understood Japanese, but that's what he said, that it goes
28:17
through like a second round of heating to add a rope.
28:22
So that's what's different from what was shared when we went
28:26
through like the processing facility in Uji versus the one
28:29
in in Oshino. OK.
28:32
Yeah, if they go through like 4-4 rounds of drying, like they
28:38
slowly dry it, right, because it's like a not conveyor belt.
28:41
Yeah, So it goes through four times for it to dry into our
28:45
Racha. And then, yeah, they add, I
28:48
guess another level of heating when it comes to Yami and
28:52
mushino. I wonder if the extra step of
28:55
drying has anything to do with the local temperature and
28:58
humidity because when we had the experience of seeing some of the
29:01
processing, tensile gets like wet very quickly if you just let
29:06
us sit in the open air And depending on the, you know, the
29:10
humidity inside the facility and also, you know, in the local
29:14
environment. I wonder if that would have been
29:17
the cause in the beginning of why Yame has has that extra step
29:22
of drying. That could be a possibility
29:25
because of of course it's a totally different there are and
29:28
they're in the mountain. So probably the humidity level
29:32
is quite different. So in the beginning, in order to
29:35
preserve it not through with the tea, they had to do like an
29:38
extra sack of drying right? And then it contributed to like
29:43
it being nutty and toasty and then distinct to the reject.
29:46
Yeah, that's interesting. Yeah, that'd be be cool to find
29:51
out because something we've noticed in doing all of our meal
29:53
testing too, like we're we're developing in the mill in the
29:56
Guangzhou, Shenzhen area, which is super humid.
30:00
You know, we if we leave Tensha, I sit out for too long or like
30:03
don't pay attention to resealing the bag perfectly.
30:07
I remember we we can't, we left and then we came back two months
30:10
later and we realized our Tensha bag wasn't perfectly sealed.
30:15
The color went from like that beautiful, like dark green, like
30:21
you know, like the with the slight bluish hue, like a really
30:24
high quality tension look to this like really disgusting,
30:28
more pale and we touched it and it was like soft.
30:32
Slightly damp. Yeah, it.
30:33
Was like absorbing water from the air.
30:36
That is super possible. Like tensha is really sensitive
30:42
to humidity and moisture which made me think.
30:45
I think This is why matcha just degrades like that.
30:49
Really. Fast open the can.
30:51
It's because now imagine you've like exposed all this surface
30:54
area. It is like hungry for that
30:56
moisture and it probably pulls it right out of the air and like
31:00
the moisture is like what really accelerates the the degradation
31:06
and oxidation reactions. What's going on?
31:09
And think about the places that you end up opening.
31:12
That kind of matcha is in the cafe countertop, it's in your
31:16
kitchen. It's like really the most moist
31:18
place that you can think of. Yeah, and it's near a water
31:22
supply, right? It's probably near a kettle or a
31:25
sink. Yeah, but yeah, I totally agree.
31:28
Because like when we touch tensha, it was almost
31:31
translucent. Like some of the tea leaves are
31:33
translucent, right? Because they're like young
31:36
leaves and then they're dried and then their veins and stems
31:39
are removed. That when you put it in your
31:42
tongue, it kind of like goes soft really fast.
31:46
So I can just imagine it being exposed to humidity and then
31:49
like, slowly absorbing all of it.
31:51
It's yeah, it really degrades fast.
31:54
Yeah, such A and so many ways, like matcha just shouldn't
31:59
exist. Like the amount of work, how
32:02
quickly it degrades. Even if you just make a cup and
32:05
you let it sit in a glass, it'll settle to the bottom.
32:07
It's just like it's such a transient, fleeting thing at
32:11
every stage and how much work it is to just get it to come to
32:16
life. And I guess solidifies the idea
32:19
of it being the tea of choice in tea ceremonies, right?
32:23
Because they teach you to be present and in the moment and
32:26
enjoy what's going on. So probably that's one of the
32:29
things as to why matcha is what it is.
32:33
Yeah, very much Ichigo Ichi. A Right, like it's a fleeting
32:37
thing. You open a tin of matcha for the
32:40
very first time and it's all this complex flavors and stuff,
32:44
and then a week later, 2 weeks later, it's totally different
32:48
from the first time you open it, Yeah.
32:51
So. Yeah, can never be replicated.
32:54
Nope. I will forever remember my first
33:00
experience spelling the Cowley coming from Tanju and how
33:05
drastically it changed. It changed like 2 days later.
33:08
I almost thought that Ryan slapped the tea and trying to
33:12
take the good tea for himself. But we're hoping fresh milling
33:16
can help and the machine we're developing can help re
33:19
replicate, you know, the day one shelf life on demand, which it
33:26
should be able to help. It's the next step, right?
33:29
Yeah, I logically it feels like this is like the next evolution
33:33
because like you preserve taste, you preserve nutrition, just the
33:35
infrastructure has to catch up. Yeah, because like, it's very
33:39
similar to coffee, like when they discovered you can grind it
33:43
in your home. Like there's so many, like,
33:46
advancements that happen when it comes to the grinders.
33:49
Yeah. So now that people are paying
33:53
attention to Matcha, I feel like finally the infrastructure will
33:58
be better. Yeah.
33:59
And I think that in matcha it's even more important arguably
34:02
than in coffee. Yeah, I'd rather have pre ground
34:05
coffee than like, I'd rather have fresh ground matcha than
34:09
fresh ground coffee. Like it's yes, which might be a
34:12
controversial thing to say to some coffee people, but like
34:16
coffee is a very strong taste. Like matcha is delicate and like
34:20
it's like the moment like some flaw or something happens to
34:24
matcha, it just becomes so obvious and like it really
34:29
stands out in a way. Like or in coffee, I find it's
34:33
kind of gets covered up a little bit just because it's an intense
34:36
beverage. And I see like, you know how
34:38
coffee Brewers have certain recipes that still bring out the
34:42
best qualities of coffee, even if it's like past the ideal
34:46
roast date or grind date, Like they have those things in place
34:51
as to like matcha. You can't change a lot.
34:53
No, Yeah, you have very little control.
34:56
Right. You're lucky just if you get
34:58
some supply, it's a very in the hierarchy of needs, it's much
35:03
lower. It's like, oh, can we?
35:05
Buy it, right? Exactly.
35:08
Like for now, it's not the, it's not what people are like aiming
35:12
for or like looking for. Now it's just like I just need
35:15
to get my hands on so much and I'll be good.
35:18
And you also have all these sophisticated equipments to
35:20
preserve like coffee beans, like all these vacuum containers and
35:26
all that. And I wonder if in the future as
35:28
we are moving into more fresh ground matcha like storing
35:32
tensile is going to be a problem and properly storing tensile
35:36
especially. Yeah, yeah, definitely.
35:39
And I can see that fact. I can compare it so easily just
35:42
because I also have access to like how coffee is produced just
35:47
because like my my husband, they we also have like a roasting
35:50
wing. So imagine the comparison.
35:53
It's so easy to make, like all the struggles, let's say, when
35:56
it comes to tea and having it fresh ground versus like coffee.
36:01
But there's still so many things that you have do right now at
36:04
least, yeah. Yeah.
36:07
They have like what they call it, protocols in place for
36:11
coffee already, which doesn't exist in just yet.
36:15
Not yet it will. Yeah, well.
36:18
Did you have any like, like, what were some of the more like
36:21
inspirational moments, you know, meeting with these tea farmers
36:24
or with your fellow travel partners in your time in Japan?
36:27
One of the things that stood out to me, I think is when you were
36:31
talking to one of the tea farmers in Yame, Kurizumi San.
36:36
So he's actually an award-winning tea farmer, not
36:40
for matcha, but for Via Coro. But he, he also produces A
36:44
matcha. And so we were talking to him.
36:46
This guy has a really great sense of humor, by the way, just
36:51
goes through language barriers, I swear.
36:54
So we were talking to him and then at first it was just like,
36:57
you know, really funny replies or something.
37:00
And then eventually we asked him what he thought of the shortage.
37:04
And I believe I posted about this on my social media account
37:07
also. But like, we asked him what he
37:09
feels about the shortage or just the increase in demand
37:13
worldwide. And then he answered that he was
37:16
scared. And then he paused.
37:18
And then he said, I'm scared that because of the demand, not
37:23
a lot of people will be able to taste real much of.
37:27
And I kid you not, that made me clear up and our translator,
37:31
magical son, noticed it as well. And you were like, Oh my gosh,
37:35
you're making me cry because I feel the effort that they do
37:40
right. They they put in so much work to
37:43
be able to produce such great teams, high quality teams, only
37:50
to, I don't know, be overtaken by like someone who has bigger
37:55
supply. I don't know, or like a country
37:58
that can provide something similar.
38:00
I understand that fear. So I guess I was really affected
38:04
by it. So that's one of the things that
38:07
kind of like, Oh my God, I guess that's the reason why I am extra
38:13
affected and vigilant when I see something that's being presented
38:18
online that's not supposed to be, especially when it comes to
38:21
tea or matcha. Because I've talked to farmers
38:25
like Razumi San who has that fear and I can't help but feel
38:29
it so deeply. Even if it's technically not my
38:32
immediate responsibility, I feel like I should be able to do
38:36
something about it. So that's one of the the
38:40
highlights for me or one of the things that like stuck to me.
38:44
That's a powerful moment. Did she offer any like remedies
38:50
or like ideas of how like some of that can be solved or was it
38:59
just an expressed emotion and, and you know, it was then it
39:05
then it was kind of a concluded thought.
39:07
What's great with him is that he actually owns his own processing
39:12
facility, not to grind much, but to be able to turn it into
39:17
tensha or aracha, OK, Aracha and then they can do tensha.
39:22
But not a lot of farmers have that.
39:25
So it's either they share a tea processing facility.
39:27
It's like a Co-op thing. While Kuruzumi San he owns, he
39:33
owns his own tea facility, processing facility and he
39:38
renovated it actually. So Mark was sharing that when he
39:42
was there last year, the facade wasn't great.
39:45
It was like a really old place. And then when we came like last
39:49
month, he fixed it. And I feel like that is, and he
39:53
also shared that that is him trying to keep up with the
39:56
demand and be able to like shoulder, I guess the the labor
40:02
of processing the tea instead of just having it sent to a full
40:05
up. And then there's like a
40:06
bottleneck that's happening. So in his end, like he, he is
40:11
doing something to be able to, to help.
40:16
Yeah. Absolutely.
40:18
A lot of agencies. Because it's not, it's not
40:20
cheap. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
40:21
It's not cheap to be able to like put up your own facility
40:26
and have it renovated and like all of those things.
40:29
It's not cheap because they're already spending so much on the
40:34
tea fields, like labor and like all the materials that's needed.
40:37
So yeah, it's a big race, but a lot of the farmers are now
40:42
starting to do it. I feel, Yeah, the best way is to
40:45
really support those farmers. Did the farmers you interact
40:49
with express what they want the future to look like?
40:53
Because it's, it's a weird opportunity for them.
40:56
Like if you flip around the perspective, because you have
40:58
people like, as you said, from Mexico, from Hong Kong, from
41:02
Philippines, from the US, from from Czech Republic, from all
41:06
over the place, who have just spent all this money to come to
41:10
your doorstep specifically to learn because they're, they love
41:14
this product that much. That must have been
41:17
incomprehensible to, like, their grandparents or something.
41:23
It's such a weird thing that that happened.
41:27
And like, the consumer base has shifted so radically.
41:31
Did you get a sense of, like, their thoughts on how much a
41:35
culture is being spread, the new consumers that are consuming it?
41:39
And like what they want to see is this moves into the future.
41:45
Well, like a lot of the farms that we visited there, you
41:49
weren't really open to a lot of foreigners, which made it extra
41:53
special just because like they usually wouldn't open their
41:57
space or their homes to like people who are not Japanese or
42:02
like outside of the tea industry all together.
42:06
So that was great. And I feel like that was just
42:08
the first step that they are actually not the first step, but
42:12
like they're realizing the effect of their product across
42:17
the globe. So that's one thing that people
42:19
are actually coming to them and seeking them out and wanting to
42:23
learn from them. And definitely they are working
42:27
hard to be able to on keep up with the demand.
42:32
And it there's also like government help for it.
42:35
Now they're giving incentives, right, to help these farmers be
42:39
able to produce tea. A lot actually are shifting from
42:45
doing loose leaf teas that they're now trying to do tensha
42:49
just to be able to produce matcha.
42:51
So they're there, They are understanding the gravity of it.
42:55
But I don't know if this is in the right context, but like, I
42:58
don't think the price increase has reached the farmers yet.
43:03
Does that make sense? Like I don't think the amount
43:05
that they're paid for, for the tea that they produce has
43:08
increased as compared to how much it is being bought by the
43:12
consumers now. So there's still a lot of things
43:15
that need to be worked out, but they are very aware of the
43:19
sudden boom. And I, I'm kind of getting this
43:22
feeling of like, just be patient with us kind of thing, you know,
43:27
because he also, I know that there's a huge demand, but they
43:31
can't just keep producing things just so they can keep up with
43:34
the demand, especially if they are, especially that they're the
43:39
type that values like quality and values like doing things in
43:42
a traditional way. So that's, that's one thing.
43:45
That's why I felt like, I feel like they're also asking for
43:49
just a little bit of patience, you know, so that yes, we can,
43:53
we can supply to you, but like you gotta, you gotta be patient
43:57
with us too because they're also having a hard time.
44:01
Yeah, they've you have a lot of responsibility to bear.
44:05
And not only their own, but the reputation of their family in
44:09
the region. And yeah, and like the the
44:12
gentleman you spoke of, you know, it's he's a tea farmer,
44:15
but he also has to coordinate with like a bunch of like people
44:19
to come pick the tea. But he's also a factory owner
44:22
and a factory operator. And like, he also has to deal
44:26
with probably an export department and sales
44:29
distribution. And like, it's a lot of hats to
44:32
wear. He probably has more agency than
44:36
a lot of small farmers. A lot of the smaller farmers
44:41
probably got really sheltered away by the larger tea houses or
44:46
tea brands that, you know, by the end of the day, you know,
44:50
who sells the product makes makes the most money, right?
44:54
And the prophet hasn't necessarily trickled down to
44:57
them yet, which is kind of cool to see.
44:59
You know, like all of us are slowly, you know, venturing into
45:04
all these, not necessarily the Super traditional regions like,
45:08
you know, Fuji or like Gamma, but also like to all the areas
45:14
around it. And I think, you know, there's,
45:18
it's going to be soon that, you know, all of these will trickle
45:20
down and spread to all the all of these smaller regions and
45:24
smaller farmers. Yeah, it's really a shame that
45:27
foreigners can't participate in the commodities market, right?
45:30
Because everything just gets sold or the auction market.
45:33
Yeah, yeah, it's super like private.
45:36
Because in every other industry, like in chocolate, you can form
45:40
direct relationships. But I mean, you can also buy
45:43
from cooperatives. You can buy at auction.
45:46
Same thing with coffee. I mean even specialty coffee has
45:49
its own like commodities market where like we can have access to
45:54
these things at lower prices and then do our own value add like
45:57
either quarter a minute milling facility to get it milled and
46:02
then onwards. Or if you have the capacity to
46:04
mill it yourself, mill it yourself or do some of like the
46:07
end processing yourself. And the fact that like it's very
46:10
hard to buy from these farmers unless they have like very
46:15
vertically integrated from like the the tea plants all the way
46:19
through tensha. If they don't have that
46:22
infrastructure, like we don't have access to it.
46:25
But if we had access to it, we could get way more money to
46:29
smaller farmers that would directly go in their pocket.
46:33
And maybe it would, you know, 1 downside is probably really
46:37
raises the price for the traditional players.
46:39
All the chashi's and the blend houses that are, are really part
46:43
of the ecosystem. But the other benefit is that it
46:46
probably would make it a much more attractive profession.
46:50
Yeah, for the younger generation.
46:52
Yeah, exactly. As I was listening to the Global
46:55
Japanese Tea Association did some videos of interviewing some
46:59
farmers and Shizuoka, and they were talking about, yeah, we're
47:03
switching to yuzu and shiitake mushrooms.
47:06
Tea is too much work. The price is too low.
47:11
And it's like, it's like, that's a real thing.
47:14
And I think if foreigners had access to the commodities or the
47:18
auction market, we could really raise the price for these people
47:22
that we don't have access to. A lot of structural change.
47:25
I don't think it can happen. And also the fact that you're
47:30
giving money directly to the farmers, not only making them
47:34
rich, which is very nice, but also you're making these farmers
47:37
much more risk resilient and probably will be more risk
47:41
taking in terms of investing for larger productions or more
47:47
processing facilities. And you know, one thing that
47:50
we've been talking to the farmers and they have shared the
47:52
concerns is that investing for production, investing for
47:57
equipment, investing for upscaring the garden is very
48:01
time and capital consuming. And a lot of farmers just do not
48:04
necessarily have the cash flow to be able to do that.
48:07
Yeah. And, you know, the fact that we
48:10
can, you know, give them a lot of cash flow will probably make
48:13
them much more willing to take the risk and expand their
48:17
production. That's true.
48:19
I don't know. I hope that happens right, that
48:22
they open these things up to foreigners.
48:25
But even this even like in Japan, they're quite private
48:30
about it. It's almost like a secret
48:32
society that you can't step in an actual option for tea.
48:37
And unfortunately, women can't really make a stand too, even if
48:42
you're Japanese. Yeah, I went to.
48:44
It's mostly male. I went to a talk in Toronto from
48:50
someone who started AB2B matcha business in Canada and it was a
48:55
Japanese woman, but I think she grew up in Canada and she didn't
48:59
internship at the Shizuoka Tea Auction, which I think is the
49:02
largest tea auction house in Japan.
49:05
And apparently she was the first woman on payroll ever.
49:10
She was an intern. And this was like, I don't know,
49:12
it's like 8 years ago. Like it was very recent.
49:16
Like Japan has a very long way. Like Siri.
49:22
Like it's crazy. Because I saw this like in a
49:25
video documentary or something. It follows a Japanese woman's
49:30
family tea business. His father is the one who does
49:33
all the blending and is still chooses all the teas to be
49:36
bought in the auction, right? Even if she is technically the
49:40
second in command because she's the one being trained to do it,
49:44
she can't make much decisions, especially during the auction.
49:48
It's still her father and like another male colleague that's
49:54
not family, the second parent, they really still value this
49:58
role to be filled by a male versus it being taken up by,
50:03
like, a woman. And that video was literally
50:06
like, a year and a half ago or something.
50:08
So it's still happening, Yeah. Yeah, it's like every, the whole
50:13
society is complicit in it. I mean, that's the other benefit
50:18
to opening it up to foreigners too.
50:20
Like someone who really wants to pursue this, it can open it, add
50:23
the value by get access to the commodities market and then like
50:27
create these products like outside of the system.
50:30
The problem is you have to be in the system to participate in
50:33
that system. Sexist.
50:35
Opening it up to foreigners is also opening up the system to
50:38
everyone in theory, where you don't have to be in the system.
50:44
So it's because like, imagine like, like your family coffee
50:47
business, like, like your roastery.
50:49
Like, it would be wild if, like, they didn't have access to green
50:53
coffee and like, being able to buy that on the market at the,
50:56
like, the prices that all coffee roasters can.
50:58
Like, imagine they had to go to like, Blue Bottle or something.
51:02
Yeah. Yeah.
51:03
Yeah, egg someone for like some finished product, right.
51:06
Then the the whole business is predicated on adding value in
51:10
the value chain, right? Like the, the roasting, the
51:13
curation and the preparation, the cafe space.
51:16
And like we, there's very few people who have access to add
51:21
any value other than matcha education and, you know, selling
51:26
on products that like have, there's no, there's very little
51:30
value left to, to do unless you're milling matcha fresh.
51:33
And it's very, very frustrating. We lost them, but Japan has a
51:37
whole way to go. Yeah, I feel like they're so
51:42
advanced, but not really in a lot of other aspects.
51:45
They're super advanced, but a part of them, like some of the
51:51
practices, I feel like it's still quite native and they're
51:54
resistant to change, right? Like they're not as comfortable
51:58
when it comes to change so. Did you encounter very many
52:02
women in the tea industry when like just in all of your
52:06
sourcing trips in Japan? One of the one of the families
52:10
that I get tea from people, gotcha.
52:14
What do you call this? The one who's handling all of
52:18
the exporting and all the outward communication.
52:22
She's the daughter. So she's a woman, which is great
52:26
and even her mom is really active in the business.
52:33
That was actually that they're the first family that I actually
52:36
met. And then I was, I wasn't
52:41
surprised that they were women, right.
52:42
I was more surprised to find out later on that that's quite rare.
52:46
Yeah. Yeah.
52:47
It's like after realization, once you like meet more people.
52:51
Like all the other all the other communications that happened
52:54
afterwards, I was talking to a female, OK?
52:58
So Jack, I saw your recent collaboration with the Westin
53:03
that that looks like really cool.
53:05
Congrats on that crossover. That's like like really cool.
53:08
I'd love to learn more about like what that is and how that
53:11
came about. Yeah, it's really exciting.
53:14
Like, to be honest, it did not sink in to me in the beginning.
53:19
It's it felt like, oh, OK, perfect.
53:21
I found like a space where I can do it a lot more regularly.
53:25
And then I realized that I am partnering with like an
53:28
international company. So it's like it's really in
53:32
vain. So that was really great because
53:36
they reached out to me and the Western Manila, their focus is
53:41
about Wellness. OK.
53:43
So they were really trying to look for different activities
53:46
that, you know, power powering that message through.
53:50
And one of the things that they were looking at was matcha.
53:52
And of course, matcha has its health benefits, right?
53:56
So they wanted to do activities related to it that they can
54:01
offer not just for their customers and clients, but also
54:04
like to people outside who were like really interested in
54:08
getting to know this Japanese feet.
54:11
So it was just a great, like, collaboration because they gave
54:14
me like, they were just very open.
54:18
So like, OK, you can teach like everything about matcha, like up
54:23
to you tell them about the health benefits, tell them about
54:26
the processes. And I'm like, really excited to
54:29
do it. Nice.
54:30
So yeah, yeah, the creative freedom and they're so
54:34
supportive. So we're going to be doing that
54:37
once a month until October. Wow.
54:40
That's cool. Yeah.
54:44
So we're doing it every Saturday, like one Saturday per
54:47
month. So the first one is going to be
54:49
in July. And it's really exciting because
54:52
like when I started doing workshops, there's not a lot of
54:57
workshops happening yet. At least let's focus on matcha.
55:00
There's probably one or two. And then when I started doing
55:03
it, of course, like that was a year ago.
55:06
And I've learned so much since the first one that I kind of
55:12
feel like, Oh my gosh, is there like a certain injustice to the
55:15
first people who participated in my workshop?
55:17
Because all the all the ones who will be able to attend the
55:21
following ones, or at least the upcoming workshops will
55:24
definitely have have a lot more access and information because
55:29
of everything that I've recently learned.
55:31
But I also had to, I guess, make peace with the idea that it is a
55:36
constant learning journey, not just for me, but for everyone
55:39
who's interested in Matcha antique.
55:42
So I just hope and pray that the previous participants kind of
55:46
had this like passion and curiosity that sparked in them
55:50
that allow them to like seek out these information themselves,
55:54
you know, or. You could get some advanced
55:56
course. That's Oh my gosh, I wish, I
56:00
wish I could do something like that.
56:02
But sometimes I feel like I have this thing that I have to make
56:05
sure that I equip myself first before I'm able to do something
56:09
and share it with others because it's quite yeah, right.
56:13
Like it's quite hard. I can't just like, you know, I
56:16
can't just gather stuff from the Internet and like teach it.
56:20
So it's really valuable to me that I was able to travel, I was
56:24
able to able to talk to different people, not just the
56:27
farmers and tea processors and tea suppliers, but also you guys
56:30
like different people from the tea industry, from different
56:33
parts of the world. All of those things add up to
56:37
the stuff that I get to share with the participants in the
56:40
workshop. So yeah, it's really exciting.
56:43
That's awesome. And imagine from the first like
56:46
the podcast that we did last December was it and it came out
56:49
like early 2025. We were talking about pop ups
56:54
and that just like that part of like my, my tea journey I think
56:59
has ended. I think just now it's all about
57:03
like workshops and like, and I feel honored to be able to do
57:09
that, to be able to share everything that I learned,
57:12
especially now that I'm so I guess I don't want to share the
57:17
right information. So, yeah.
57:22
So it's, yeah, it's it's a privilege to be able to be given
57:26
a platform, to be able to share. Yeah.
57:29
I'm really, really grateful. Yeah.
57:31
I it's crazy. I really did not picture myself
57:35
to be in this journey. I would say I was.
57:39
I'm just, I just like to read stuff, research stuff, watch
57:45
stuff and talk to people and learn more.
57:48
And it led me here and I'm just really thankful that I get to
57:51
share it. That's awesome.
57:53
We are too and really appreciate you coming on the podcast again.
57:57
Well, thank you guys. It's an honor to like be able to
58:01
be part of the podcast. It's, you know, it's crazy.
58:04
Some people from the tour group, the first few days you'd
58:07
introduce ourselves, right? And then let's say like 3 days
58:11
in or four days in, one or two of them would be like, now I
58:14
remember you. I know you said that they knew
58:19
my voice before they knew my face because they listened to
58:23
the podcast. And it's crazy that I because of
58:28
it's amazing that because of this podcast, I was able to
58:31
connect with other people far beyond my reach.
58:36
It's crazy. And even meeting Pao and Obooboo
58:39
Farms. Yeah, yeah.
58:42
So that was like, amazing. Now we're we're really happy
58:45
with the the podcast is kind of evolving into a community space
58:49
because the more we like progress along in our own
58:53
company and T learning journey, the more people I meet that like
58:58
are very like minded and just like people don't know each
59:01
other. Like it's really great to have
59:04
a, a platform where people can be introduced to other people in
59:07
the industry. As even I was talking with
59:09
someone just yesterday who is doing a collaboration with Oh
59:12
Boo Boo. When we get chatting, like the
59:14
conversation just like lasted for 1/2 an hour.
59:17
We were like, fascinating so deeply about like specialty
59:22
matcha and like, promoting what the farmers are doing and like
59:26
different consumer behavior patterns and how like, people
59:30
are developing healthier relationships with caffeine.
59:34
Yeah. Really interesting and we're
59:38
really happy that the podcast can be for a way to to help
59:42
cross awareness that like other people exist and what their
59:45
focus is and their experiences. And so something that really
59:51
personally very satisfied that it's evolved that way.
59:54
Super, like, just the amount of people I've met because of your
59:58
podcast, it's insane, yeah. Like even Johnny John from
1:00:02
Johnny Macho, Brian from Matsu. I met Marcel briefly in person.
1:00:08
Yeah, I mean, right. Like we bumped into him.
1:00:11
So that was great. I talked to Dee of Homecoming
1:00:14
Macho online. So like, it's, it's really nice
1:00:19
that you're able to do this and, like, connect people.
1:00:22
Yeah, I hope you get to do those dinners when we, when we all
1:00:26
like go to Kyoto all at the same time and have like a community
1:00:30
meet up. Yep, that's our the goal is in
1:00:33
person community dinner. Well, I think it's a great place
1:00:37
to stop. Thank you so much, Jack, for
1:00:39
coming on again. Thank you.
1:00:42
Really, we're really excited about your work.
1:00:43
We need to make a trip to the Philippines to go to one of
1:00:46
these western workshops. That's a that's super cool
1:00:48
crossover and Congrats. It's a huge.
1:00:50
You know, thank you. And to our listeners, so if you
1:00:54
enjoyed this podcast, please consider sharing it with friend
1:00:57
and we'll see you in the next one.
1:00:59
Thanks. See you in the future.