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ep2 Grant Lawrence is my DJ · Almost Famous Enough

• 0:24
  Glen Erickson: The year 2000 was a big year for me.
• 0:27
  Glen Erickson: It didn't hurt that major career and personal transitions aligned with the change of a century and a millennium.
• 0:33
  Glen Erickson: I had just drained the 90s for all it had in reframing my own musical influences and inspirations, and the velocity of this pivotal transitional era was immediate.
• 0:44
  Glen Erickson: I needed something or someone to help fill in the path in front of me.
• 0:48
  Glen Erickson: So enter two primary figures.
• 0:50
  Glen Erickson: First, John in the Morning, foundational DJ for KEXP in Seattle and their early technology online access, which was awesome.
• 0:58
  Glen Erickson: And then, shortly after, in the line of late 90's program Brave New Waves by the publicly funded CBC, came Radio 3.
• 1:08
  Glen Erickson: A fully online format championing Canadian independent music and its anchor afternoon host, Grant Lawrence.
• 1:16
  Glen Erickson: In short, Grant Lawrence is an award winning writer, musician, broadcaster, and live event host.
• 1:22
  Glen Erickson: He's the author of four best selling books for adults, most recently his latest number one bestseller, Return to Solitude, in 2022, and his first children's picture book, Bailey the Bat and the Tangled Moose.
• 1:34
  Glen Erickson: Following his success with breakout 90s indie band The Smugglers, Grant translated his frontman persona into endearing host and tastemaker with Radio 3 and all of the spinoffs, including creation of some of the earliest podcasts.
• 1:49
  Glen Erickson: And he continues his public hosting work with CBC Music currently.
• 1:54
  Glen Erickson: This is Almost Famous Enough.
• 1:56
  Glen Erickson: I'm your host, Glenn Erickson, and thank you for spending your time with us today.
• 2:00
  Glen Erickson: This is Grant Lawrence.
• 2:23
  Glen: But it is what it is.
• 2:25
  Glen: But how are you doing?
• 2:26
  Glen: Are you how you
• 2:26
  Grant: I'm great.
• 2:27
  Grant: It's great to see you, and thank you so much for having me.
• 2:31
  Glen: Oh, thank you so much for taking the The time to jump on here you know, in all the people I know in the industry, you have a very unique character and history and story in it.
• 2:42
  Glen: It weaves into a lot of other people.
• 2:44
  Glen: I know their story.
• 2:46
  Glen: I've always been very interested in it.
• 2:48
  Glen: I think there's Lots of little insights and lots of little things I'd love to talk with you about, um, in the life of what people pursue, whether it be music or adjacent.
• 3:01
  Glen: Um, so I was hoping we could just, like, dig into some of that stuff.
• 3:05
  Grant: Sure.
• 3:07
  Glen: of course I greatly appreciate that, you know, you're wearing, That great little flannel underneath, which, uh, just feels
• 3:14
  Grant: MAC jacket.
• 3:15
  Glen: so Canadian.
• 3:16
  Glen: And you've always had, such stuff, by the way, I wore this for you.
• 3:21
  Glen: My, uh, my family got me this.
• 3:24
  Glen: I love black on black.
• 3:26
  Glen: And, uh, and so they,
• 3:29
  Grant: Oh, yeah, I see there's a CBC
• 3:31
  Glen: that's the CBC logo, black on black.
• 3:33
  Glen: And it's
• 3:34
  Grant: picking it up.
• 3:35
  Glen: literally my favorite hoodie.
• 3:36
  Glen: So, I had to wear it today.
• 3:39
  Glen: so I might as well just ask you the question right off the bat.
• 3:41
  Glen: You've, through different eras, you've always had some iconic fashion element, like the rubber boots when you were in a band and then, the sweater.
• 3:53
  Glen: And I, I get, I know that there's a great Canadian debate on which term to call it a Cowichan sweater or a siwash or, you but you have that custom sweater with the
• 4:03
  Grant: Yeah.
• 4:04
  Grant: Yeah.
• 4:04
  Grant: I, I haven't, I have that sweater and I haven't worn it in, in years.
• 4:09
  Grant: It's in my office at the CBC.
• 4:11
  Grant: Um, I remember, yeah.
• 4:14
  Grant: Wearing that sweater.
• 4:15
  Grant: You learn, uh, like I, I just grew up, you know, that's the, one of the great things, CBC features we did, which I think you guys.
• 4:25
  Grant: took part in.
• 4:26
  Grant: We, we had a feature called the Canadian Dictionary and um, the, we learned that this country is so big and so wide that, you know, you can grow up with a certain set of vocabulary or vernacular, whatever in say BC where I grew up and Where, you know, this is a Mac jacket that I'm wearing, that sweater that you're referring to, we grew up calling it a Cowichan because that's a West Coast term.
• 4:55
  Grant: Cowichan First Nation on Vancouver Island, famous for weaving those wool sweaters.
• 5:00
  Grant: And then we found out that in the prairies, siwash.
• 5:06
  Grant: And then I found out that in the East, it's just called a curling sweater.
• 5:11
  Glen: They just call it a curling sweater.
• 5:13
  Glen: Oh, that's,
• 5:13
  Grant: They just call it a curling sweater, but it's the same thing with, you know, cottage cabin camp, uh, another one, you know, what you're wearing right now, which has, you know, I think it's an American term is hoodie, but in Saskatchewan, they call that very specifically a bunny
• 5:29
  Glen: hug.
• 5:30
  Glen: Yeah.
• 5:30
  Glen: Because of, because of the pouch.
• 5:33
  Grant: I guess
• 5:33
  Glen: So I grew up Saskatchewan.
• 5:35
  Glen: So yeah, I'm familiar with that term.
• 5:36
  Grant: Yeah, but I mean, when I was a kid, those were called kangaroo hoodies.
• 5:41
  Grant: Uh, yeah, because of the pouch.
• 5:43
  Grant: So there's all this different, and I love that about Canada.
• 5:46
  Grant: And I think the, um, we did a Canadian.
• 5:51
  Grant: Dictionary with your old band, The Wheat Pool, and I'm pretty sure you got it.
• 5:56
  Grant: I got you guys to tell us about like the phenomenon of the grain elevators across the
• 6:01
  Glen: Y'all, you know what?
• 6:02
  Glen: I was, I was, you said that and I'm like, did we?
• 6:05
  Glen: But now that you say that I do remember, my great grandfather was a part of, it was like a union movement essentially, kind of what, what happened with grain elevators.
• 6:16
  Glen: And he was a part of, uh, about getting that going.
• 6:21
  Glen: So,
• 6:21
  Grant: Yeah, and now there are these, you know, these iconic landmarks, you know, across the flatlands of our, of our country that are somewhat endangered, but are definitely classic and, uh, loved your band, loved the, uh, anthemic nature of your songs, still, uh, love them.
• 6:42
  Grant: And, uh, I, yeah, it's funny that I only just thought of that feature for the first time in a long time, just as we chatted.
• 6:49
  Glen: Oh, that's great.
• 6:50
  Glen: Well, I know like a funny story for me.
• 6:54
  Glen: So in the work I'm doing right now, I have had to go to the island a few times and, and one time I landed in Victoria and then rented a car to get up to Nanaimo.
• 7:06
  Glen: And so I literally went to stop for lunch and there's like the great big sign about Cowichan.
• 7:15
  Glen: For the road sign and like right underneath it was an unhoused fellow with his signs and his paraphernalia and he was wearing a Cowichan sweater like right underneath and I was like okay I'm gonna say Grant is right and it's a Cowichan.
• 7:31
  Glen: It's not, I grew up in Saskatchewan we called it Siwash but uh it totally makes sense when you see it in context.
• 7:38
  Glen: Uh, but it is a pretty great thing about the country and Uh, I do appreciate you saying that, about the band and your interest that you had.
• 7:50
  Glen: I think that's, I don't mind jumping in even right there.
• 7:53
  Glen: Like our introduction is, probably goes all the way back to 2007 2008, um, when we released our first record.
• 8:05
  Glen: So I've already, I've had an interview with Dan Mangan.
• 8:08
  Glen: We've talked, for the podcast and Him and I share this really similar story, but in a different way, where kind of at the top of the list for us right at that time was getting your attention.
• 8:22
  Glen: And, um, and then, so in 2008 in January, I think, you released a podcast about the ones to watch for that year or something and we were both on it.
• 8:34
  Glen: So that's how we discovered, him and I, that's how we discovered each other and each other's music.
• 8:38
  Glen: And
• 8:39
  Grant: That's really nice.
• 8:40
  Glen: there we ended up crossing paths all the time across the country, playing shows and festivals and, and, uh, being at conferences and
• 8:48
  Grant: I, I'm, I'm still really good friends with Dan.
• 8:50
  Grant: He's, he's coming over for dinner tomorrow night with his, with his family and his kids, and we travel with'em and we, you know, we're, they're like pretty close family friends now.
• 9:02
  Glen: That's pretty great.
• 9:03
  Glen: It's pretty great to be able to look back and have.
• 9:07
  Glen: Those things evolve the way they have and have relationships
• 9:10
  Grant: I mean, that, that's, that's something that I, I really hold dearly is.
• 9:15
  Glen: That's
• 9:17
  Grant: you know, I was in a band, my own band, The Smugglers, there's some paraphernalia behind you there, um, or behind me rather, but, uh, you know, you can sell a bunch of records and you can, or not, or, and you can tour the world or not or whatever, but what I really think is the most valuable thing that I take away from career is the friends, you know, and the connections made.
• 9:44
  Grant: And I know there's no money in that, but really at the end of the day, I value the friendships that, uh, I've made through music.
• 9:55
  Grant: Uh, you know, I love the music and I love having a roof over my head and all that kind of stuff, but obviously, but the friendship thing is just so important to me.
• 10:05
  Grant: And I really value it a lot.
• 10:07
  Grant: And, uh, and I have friends that You know, like we're, my wife, Jill is a touring musician.
• 10:15
  Grant: She's, I don't think this is announced yet, but she is going to be playing in Japan in the summertime.
• 10:22
  Grant: And I still have friends in Japan, Japanese musician friends from when the Smugglers toured there, you know, like 25 years ago, still friends with them.
• 10:32
  Grant: And my son who's 11 is really into punk rock now.
• 10:35
  Grant: And, uh, and we're going to go up to You know, Tokyo and check out some of the punk rock culture that that's still around in that, in that massive city.
• 10:47
  Glen: That's got to be pretty exciting feeling to start sharing those experiences with your son now.
• 10:53
  Grant: Oh yeah, yeah.
• 10:54
  Grant: And I haven't just started.
• 10:55
  Grant: I mean, he's fully entrenched.
• 10:57
  Grant: Like he has his own band.
• 11:01
  Grant: he has his own band called Blue Jay Valley.
• 11:04
  Grant: They have their own record out.
• 11:05
  Grant: He's 11 years old.
• 11:08
  Grant: Um, it's original songs that, that him and his friends write, you know, is like the whole deal, blue vinyl.
• 11:17
  Grant: Um, and they play shows and they make their own posters.
• 11:21
  Grant: And so it's, it's very much like the way I grew up with, with Nardwar.
• 11:27
  Grant: And the smugglers and the evaporators, but we did all this when we were teenagers, like 18, um, doing the all ages shows and the post string and the records.
• 11:39
  Grant: And my son is doing it at a very, like, like he's doing it at a very, very young age.
• 11:45
  Grant: But, you know, they charge 10 bucks for tickets.
• 11:48
  Grant: They do all ages shows.
• 11:49
  Grant: I help them out a lot.
• 11:52
  Grant: Uh, you know, I, I kind of helped Josh design the posters for shows, you know, making sure like it's readable and you know, the date is really important and, uh, you know, but nowadays what they do, I mean, when, back when me and Nardwuar were putting on all ages shows, We'd make a poster and it would say at the bottom tickets available at track records capers grocery store Harry's market whatever and now you just put a qr code on there and all you have to do Is the kids or the parents scan the code with their phone and boom you can buy tickets Standing right there in front of the poster On the telephone pole and boom you have tickets.
• 12:34
  Grant: So uh, i'm enjoying the uh You The technological advances in rock and roll show promotion that didn't exist when I was a teenager.
• 12:46
  Glen: Yeah, I mean, it's not like there's a difference.
• 12:50
  Glen: Unless you think there is, you're welcome to tell me.
• 12:52
  Glen: I don't think there's a difference in the level of hustle required.
• 12:55
  Glen: It's
• 12:56
  Grant: No, there's not.
• 12:57
  Glen: you had.
• 12:58
  Grant: about energy.
• 12:59
  Glen: Yeah, but before what you were describing for us, you put all that hustle in and then you had no idea what you were doing.
• 13:08
  Glen: Like whether it would work, you know what I mean?
• 13:10
  Glen: Like it was just a poster on a telephone pole or or if you got lucky up in the local record store, right?
• 13:17
  Glen: but but
• 13:18
  Grant: Well, all those old school methods still work.
• 13:22
  Grant: Um, the biggest discovery that I've made, uh, and it's a happy discovery and, uh, you know, I, I can't believe it.
• 13:31
  Grant: Um, it's just simple mathematics is when you're a kid band.
• 13:38
  Grant: Uh, people tend to buy tickets in groups of four because of families, you know, so like the kid points at a poster, I want to go to that.
• 13:48
  Grant: And then they're like, okay, well then the sibling goes and the parents go.
• 13:51
  Grant: And so they buy tickets four at a time, as opposed to when we would sell tickets to gigs, we're often selling, you know, one ticket at a time or two tickets at a time or three, if we're lucky.
• 14:05
  Grant: So there are shows.
• 14:07
  Grant: Sell out quickly because they're the tickets are selling in multiples of four And I I was saying the nar I was telling Nardwar to this telling Nardwar this i'm like we started way too late We were selling tickets to individuals.
• 14:20
  Grant: We should have been selling tickets to families But uh that has been a revelation for me But all the old methods, you know, making a paper poster, putting it up, all that still works.
• 14:35
  Grant: I swear to it, you know, in my shows still too, like I always insist, um, I do, uh, a touring show is kind of like my retirement project.
• 14:46
  Grant: I do my own touring show now that isn't very rock and roll.
• 14:50
  Grant: It's, um, it's called Grant Lawrence and Friends, an evening of stories and songs.
• 14:54
  Grant: And it's, Kind of inspired by the Vinyl Cafe.
• 14:57
  Grant: So I tell stories from my books and, uh, and podcasts and stuff like that.
• 15:03
  Grant: And then, um, my favorite musicians, BC area musicians, musicians will play songs often acoustically.
• 15:11
  Grant: or solo between my stories and we still do old school, you know, of course there's Facebook and of course there's Instagram and all those annoying things, but we still poster towns.
• 15:26
  Grant: We still put up posters in the local cafes.
• 15:29
  Grant: We still put up posters at the community center.
• 15:31
  Grant: We still put up posters on poles.
• 15:33
  Grant: And if it's a tour, we always try to have someone on the ground in that city.
• 15:39
  Grant: Or town some, we do a lot of tours to small towns and islands in BC.
• 15:45
  Grant: And I always get, I always say, Hey, could you please put up some posters at the cafe or, you know, the library or whatever it's still matters.
• 15:53
  Grant: That on the street publicity still matters and works.
• 15:58
  Grant: It's not all online yet.
• 16:00
  Glen: Yeah.
• 16:01
  Glen: I mean, this is great.
• 16:02
  Glen: This is what I knew would be fun is that already in like 10 minutes, we've jumped around your entire
• 16:08
  Grant: We jumped around a lot.
• 16:09
  Glen: from the very back to the front to stuff, which is exactly
• 16:13
  Grant: know if you, I don't know if you, you, you probably have like an order you want to go in.
• 16:16
  Grant: So
• 16:17
  Glen: Well, no, I mean, I,
• 16:18
  Grant: me
• 16:19
  Glen: No, I, I, you've done this for a lot of years, you know, you, you try to prepare if you make sure that you don't get lost if you're supposed to anchor something, that's all.
• 16:30
  Glen: But, but when I was preparing, uh, I always look for what sort of stands off the page to me.
• 16:38
  Glen: So what stood off the page to me was like, Essentially, we're gonna, if we're gonna talk like a timeline, we're talking like the Grant Lawrence era's tour, like, and so tell me if I'm right, but it feels like your band and the Smugglers was, that basically took up your 20s, and then you
• 16:58
  Grant: and
• 16:58
  Glen: then you transitioned over, and there's overlap, don't get me wrong, but you know, then you transition over to CBC radio, which eats up most of your 30s, and you release.
• 17:11
  Glen: You write your first book and publish it in 2010, and you're basically ushering in your forties.
• 17:17
  Glen: So in some ways,
• 17:19
  Grant: it right.
• 17:20
  Glen: of distinct eras, but a lot of overlap.
• 17:23
  Glen: And I guess for me, I'm interested in the overlap and how somebody moves through the business, so to speak.
• 17:32
  Glen: But, um,
• 17:33
  Grant: Yeah, I mean, a lot of it, a lot of it is by necessity.
• 17:37
  Grant: You know, like, um, uh, by financial necessity.
• 17:41
  Grant: I mean, Smugglers, I always thought I was going to be, I knew I was going to be in the entertainment industry in some way, shape, or form from a very, very early age, but I thought I was going to be, I was, my dad really got me into movies, old Hollywood classic films, and I thought I was going to either be an actor, or a director or a writer for films.
• 18:04
  Grant: And then in high school, Rock and roll took over in a big way.
• 18:10
  Grant: Uh, you know, got really, really into music.
• 18:12
  Grant: Very, very fortunate.
• 18:14
  Grant: You know, I've told this story before, but very fortunate to have Nardwar be a couple of years up on me in high school and him being a major leader.
• 18:22
  Grant: And our, our high school was supposed to be this athletic high school, but we had all sorts of great bands.
• 18:28
  Grant: Uh, Spirit of the West went to our high school.
• 18:30
  Grant: Barney Bentall went to our high school.
• 18:32
  Grant: And then more in our era, uh, Uh, we had Nardwar and the Evaporators and bands like She Stole My Beer and Nardwar, um, started, the real pivotal thing was he started booking, uh, live bands.
• 18:49
  Grant: We, we would have canned DJs and he said, no, there's so many amazing bands.
• 18:55
  Grant: In downtown Vancouver right now, we got to bring them out to our suburban high school.
• 18:59
  Grant: So he started booking the Grapes of Wrath and DOA and the Enigmas and, and Art Bergman and Skaboom and all sorts of different genres, but all alternative.
• 19:11
  Grant: And that was hugely influential for myself and basically a generation of kids.
• 19:19
  Grant: There's so many musicians that came out of that school.
• 19:22
  Grant: And so the Smugglers formed out of that.
• 19:25
  Grant: And that was when we were, you know, we formed when we were about 16, 17 years old.
• 19:31
  Grant: And that just ruled my life, as you say, like in my late teens and all of my 20s.
• 19:38
  Glen: Did you think that that was it?
• 19:39
  Glen: Like that was gonna be the thing?
• 19:41
  Grant: Yeah, I thought that was, that was it.
• 19:42
  Grant: I'm like, okay, it's music.
• 19:43
  Grant: This is it.
• 19:45
  Grant: Um, I'm going to be in this band forever.
• 19:48
  Grant: Uh, because we really did have a lot of longevity and we had a lot of success.
• 19:51
  Grant: We were on Mint Records in Canada.
• 19:54
  Grant: Our records, you know, we, we put out a string of records.
• 19:56
  Grant: Some of them are up here on the wall.
• 19:59
  Grant: All those records would go to number one.
• 20:02
  Grant: Every single one of them would go to number one on campus radio in Canada, like one after the other, after the other, after the other.
• 20:09
  Grant: Now that does not really add up to, you know, uh, financial success, but we were, we did well, you know, we, we would do well in, in the clubs, which we were totally happy with.
• 20:21
  Grant: We were, We were absolutely 100 percent satisfied with a three, a full 300 person club, uh, because we believed that if once you started getting bigger than that, you started losing the, the, the magic of compression.
• 20:36
  Grant: So I, I call it rock and roll compression and the perfect, in my opinion, the perfect, and the Beatles knew this too.
• 20:42
  Grant: Like when they played small places like, um, the, the cavern club.
• 20:48
  Grant: In Liverpool or the Rathskeller in, in Hamburg, they were long and they were narrow and they had low ceilings.
• 20:55
  Grant: And that's what keeps the compression in and makes it sound really, really good.
• 21:01
  Grant: And so when we would walk into A club that was designed like that.
• 21:07
  Grant: We go, Oh, this is going to be a great show.
• 21:09
  Grant: It's going to be a sweat box.
• 21:11
  Grant: It's going to be awesome.
• 21:12
  Grant: But when we'd walk into some place like in we'd play like an air airport hanger in, in Italy or something like that.
• 21:19
  Grant: And the ceiling is way, way up and it's a hundred feet long.
• 21:22
  Grant: It's like playing.
• 21:23
  Grant: It's like a football field.
• 21:24
  Grant: We go, Oh man.
• 21:25
  Grant: This is going to sound terrible.
• 21:27
  Grant: This is going to be a bad show.
• 21:28
  Grant: So that I'm sort of going off on a tangent, but that, uh, that was basically what I thought I was going to do.
• 21:36
  Grant: Then in the, I was working at Mint Records as my day job between touring, uh, our Canadian label.
• 21:45
  Grant: And I was working a lot with Lookout Records in Berkeley, California, who put out our, our American, you know, our, the, they put out the American versions of our records and everything was going great.
• 21:55
  Grant: And then, uh, there was a crash.
• 21:59
  Grant: There was a, uh, an industry crash.
• 22:03
  Grant: Around 1998 and a lot of people don't remember this crash, but it was kind of like a boom bust echo.
• 22:13
  Grant: So the boom was like Nirvana and Green Day in the early 90s.
• 22:18
  Grant: That was kind of like.
• 22:20
  Grant: Almost like our version of the Rolling Stones and the Beatles in North America, you know, like grunge and punk Came roaring back alternative Uh in the early 90s, that was the boom and then there was the inevitable bust.
• 22:37
  Grant: Uh, everyone kind of overextended themselves, putting out too many records.
• 22:42
  Grant: Uh, distributors were overextending their credit lines.
• 22:46
  Grant: And then the big, the big part of the crash in Canada was that cargo distribution went bankrupt and they held a ton of, uh, of mint records and, and they owed all sorts of labels, all sorts of money and they couldn't pay it.
• 23:05
  Grant: And so that was a extremely devastating for mint.
• 23:09
  Grant: And all of a sudden they looked at me because the two owners looked at me and said, I don't know, man, I was the publicist there.
• 23:16
  Grant: I don't know if we were going to be able to pay you.
• 23:18
  Grant: How do you feel about volunteering?
• 23:20
  Grant: And I'm like, well, I got to pay my rent too.
• 23:23
  Grant: So I started looking for another job in the late nineties.
• 23:27
  Grant: And I had a friend, CBC, who did a show called Real Time.
• 23:33
  Grant: And she said, yeah, you might be able to, we might have a researcher's job for you.
• 23:38
  Grant: Which was the lowest rung on the CBC ladder.
• 23:41
  Grant: And, uh, she got me in, in 98, as a researcher at the CBC.
• 23:49
  Grant: And I worked for a show called Radio Sonic, with two of my broadcasting heroes, David Wisdom and Leora Kornfeld.
• 23:55
  Grant: They were the hosts.
• 23:55
  Grant: My job was to you know, research the rheostatics, they're coming in, you know, what are we going to talk about?
• 24:01
  Grant: And all those bands of that era, of the late 90s in Canada.
• 24:06
  Grant: And then, uh, I just stuck.
• 24:08
  Grant: And I went from, things moved really quickly.
• 24:12
  Grant: I, I became a host of the Late Night Overnight show in, in around 2000.
• 24:19
  Grant: And then by 2001, I, both David Wisdom and Leora Kornfeld, somewhat quickly moved on.
• 24:28
  Grant: And I became the host of this show called Radio Sonic, which was Saturday night, primetime live across Canada.
• 24:36
  Grant: And I remember fatefully my first show, uh, the radio season started in September and go to basically June and very much like the school year.
• 24:49
  Grant: And, uh, my first ever Radio Sonic broadcast was the Saturday after the school year.
• 24:58
  Grant: the Saturday immediately following 9 11.
• 25:01
  Grant: Um, so
• 25:02
  Glen: that.
• 25:03
  Glen: Like,
• 25:03
  Grant: yeah, 9 11 was, was on a Tuesday.
• 25:06
  Grant: September 11th, 2001.
• 25:11
  Grant: And my first primetime hosting slot was on that Saturday, whatever that would be, you know, a few days later, four, four days later.
• 25:21
  Grant: And, uh, I remember being completely nervous about it and, uh, very, I'm like, how am I supposed to do this?
• 25:30
  Grant: You know, the world is in shock.
• 25:32
  Grant: The world is in mourning.
• 25:35
  Grant: most of the world anyway.
• 25:36
  Grant: And, uh, I didn't know what to do.
• 25:38
  Grant: I thought people were going to start reading into every single song and every single lyric and a really sage producer.
• 25:45
  Grant: Who's no longer with us.
• 25:47
  Grant: Susan Engelbert said, you know what?
• 25:49
  Grant: Just entertain.
• 25:51
  Grant: People just need a break.
• 25:53
  Grant: Just music is therapy.
• 25:56
  Grant: Just play the music, be yourself and provide people with music.
• 26:03
  Grant: the break, the entertainment.
• 26:05
  Grant: And that was excellent advice.
• 26:07
  Grant: And it is really the role of the entertainer.
• 26:11
  Grant: And that stuck with me for my whole life.
• 26:14
  Grant: It's the role of the entertainer to this day.
• 26:17
  Grant: You know, we are, we are the therapy.
• 26:20
  Grant: We are the court jesters.
• 26:22
  Grant: We are the, you know, the minstrels.
• 26:25
  Grant: We, we provide the break.
• 26:27
  Grant: We provide the laugh.
• 26:29
  Grant: It's entertainment.
• 26:30
  Grant: And so that's what I have always believed.
• 26:32
  Grant: And I thank that producer for giving me that advice.
• 26:35
  Grant: So that's how I transitioned into CBC and you know, I've, I've now been there.
• 26:40
  Grant: I mean, 98 to 2024 that's, what is that 20, 20, yeah, 26 years.
• 26:52
  Glen: half your life Grant
• 26:54
  Grant: Yeah, and, and now these days I host the CBC Music Top 20, which is the most mainstream thing I've ever done in my entire life.
• 27:02
  Grant: You know, like playing songs by Beyonce and Chappell Roan and, and, you know, uh, all sorts of the cure have a new comeback album out right now.
• 27:13
  Grant: And so I'm talking about all these artists that I'm like, man, I'm used to talking about, you know, The Wheat Pool and The Weakerthans and Joel Plaskett.
• 27:20
  Grant: And now I'm talking about Beyonce.
• 27:23
  Glen: Yeah.
• 27:24
  Glen: So I'm interested in.
• 27:26
  Glen: like your takeaways in your, at this stage of your life, looking back on that, your twenties era in the band, cause you identified something I had wanted to ask you about as well, which is just the explosion of indie music.
• 27:39
  Glen: I feel like, and I, this is why I really like talking to you about this, cause you have such a great observation on scenes and the music industry.
• 27:50
  Glen: I feel like Canada had like two, kind of explosions of indie and the one in the 90s and then the early 2000s with the Arcade Fire and
• 27:58
  Grant: yeah, you got it.
• 27:59
  Grant: Like, so, so basically going back to that boom bust echo theory, uh, in the nineties, there was the boom and it all goes in waves, right?
• 28:08
  Grant: So in the early nineties, there was that boom, then there was the bust and then there was the echo.
• 28:12
  Grant: What is the echo?
• 28:13
  Grant: Well, the low point was the late nineties, but out of ashes grow sprouts.
• 28:19
  Grant: Right.
• 28:20
  Grant: And so what we saw.
• 28:22
  Grant: There was a couple of down years in those, those late nineties, but what we saw, you know, this record right behind me, uh, The Weakerthans, Left in Leaving, all time classic.
• 28:32
  Grant: It's their second album and it came out in the year 2000.
• 28:36
  Grant: So in the year 2000,
• 28:38
  Glen: hmm
• 28:39
  Grant: bubbling of the echo.
• 28:42
  Grant: And then, uh, we had the New Pornographers, uh, who, who were a bunch of sort of middling musicians in the Vancouver scene.
• 28:51
  Grant: Uh, that, that we're having sort of so, so success in a bunch of different bands all come together and become greater than the sum of their parts and explode into this bombastic, you know, kind of Fleetwood Mac through a distortion pedal bliss, and that record came out in 2000 as well.
• 29:10
  Grant: And, and those records were the foundation of the next major boom, which May never be replicated of Canadian independent music in the early to mid 2000s, where you had some of the biggest exports on the alternative level that we've ever had, you know, the classic story.
• 29:34
  Grant: of the Rheostatics or the Tragically Hip as they were not able to break in the States.
• 29:38
  Grant: Well, in the early to mid 2000s, all of a sudden we see bands like Hot Hot Heat on sub pop breaking internationally, uh, England, and, and the United States.
• 29:50
  Grant: We, of course, had, uh, another, uh, vict, uh, Victoria band, Wolf Parade, uh, exploding, and then Montreal becoming, you know, the new Seattle, and And Arcade Fire and Stars and then Toronto blowing up with Broken Social Scene and the Hidden Cameras and Metric and Death From Above and the, the, the one thing that all these bands had in common is that they were breaking internationally.
• 30:17
  Grant: So they were, they were becoming like the unicorns, whatever.
• 30:20
  Grant: They were like the it band of South by Southwest.
• 30:24
  Grant: Or they were breaking in Europe or they were breaking in Japan.
• 30:28
  Grant: And, and really the, the country that, that, that is always the one that, that a lot of musicians want to crack is the United States.
• 30:39
  Grant: And every single band that I just mentioned, did and still do phenomenally in, in the United States.
• 30:46
  Grant: I mean, stars just did a sold out us tour for the 20th anniversary of set yourself on fire, you know, sold out in New York, sold out in San Francisco.
• 30:57
  Grant: This is amazing, right?
• 30:59
  Grant: 20 years later.
• 31:00
  Grant: And so that was that major, major period.
• 31:04
  Grant: Feist was right in there as well.
• 31:06
  Grant: And, you know, these, a lot of these careers are still.
• 31:12
  Grant: Writing that period of success in from 20 years ago and right in the thick of all of that, uh, by.
• 31:22
  Grant: by pure luck slash stroke of genius slash whatever you call it was the cbc radio 3 podcast which was the first ever original podcast from the cbc created by my visionary boss steve pratt i had nothing to do with it but this you know just talking into a microphone and talking about the songs i got i wasn't even pegged as the original host they they had a host in there that didn't click they brought me in And I, this was when it was all like, all this music was just coming from everywhere, all over Canada, you know, every single week there was like Deadly Snakes, Cuff the Duke, you know, The Wheat Pool, Dan Mangan, Said the Whale, Two Hours Traffic.
• 32:05
  Grant: It was like nonstop Wintersleep and it was all good.
• 32:09
  Grant: You know, Joel Plaskett breaking out.
• 32:11
  Grant: I mean, it was, it was from all It was from all over the country and it was all good and hip hop was having a moment too at that time.
• 32:20
  Grant: Really great independent hip hop out of places like Brandon, Manitoba and Halifax, you know, not Toronto.
• 32:28
  Grant: Uh, I mean, there was always great stuff coming from Toronto, but it was so interesting to see this.
• 32:33
  Grant: this weird hip hop scene rising out of out of Brandon and Winnipeg, the Peanuts and Corn Crew with McEnroe and Bird of Prey and all those guys.
• 32:42
  Grant: And Halifax, you know, Classified.
• 32:44
  Grant: I mean, you know, a hero to many to this day.
• 32:48
  Grant: So that was very, very exciting.
• 32:50
  Grant: And the podcast was able to provide a soundtrack to that revolution of Canadian music.
• 32:56
  Grant: And so, right time, right place.
• 33:00
  Grant: And that was I don't know, like that, that scene did have its own kind of bust, maybe, uh, in my opinion, around maybe around 10, 8 to 10 years later when, uh, Indie rock really started moving into kind of more of a, It was still popular like, uh, you know, I don't want to throw him under the bus, but you know, that sort of Mac DeMarco style of a little lighter, a little more electronic, a little more yachty.
• 33:31
  Grant: And, uh, but because Mac DeMarco did incredibly well too.
• 33:36
  Grant: Um, but.
• 33:37
  Grant: You know, being from Canada, Tegan and Sarah, another example of a real breakout from that period.
• 33:44
  Grant: I mean, they're celebrating the 20th anniversary of So Jealous right now, which was their breakout record with Walking with a Ghost and all that on it that The White Stripes covered.
• 33:55
  Grant: So it was a very, very good time to be a Canadian band.
• 34:00
  Grant: We were very, very red hot exports.
• 34:05
  Grant: Arguably, for the first time since, I don't know, the Guess Who and Neil Young.
• 34:10
  Glen: Well, that's how it got
• 34:11
  Grant: of just one or Yeah, Guess Who, Neil Young, Joni Mitchell, that era, the band.
• 34:16
  Grant: But they often didn't really identify that strongly.
• 34:22
  Grant: I mean, I guess the Guess Who did.
• 34:24
  Grant: But, um, you know, they often, Gordon Lightfoot, they often moved to the States.
• 34:30
  Grant: I guess.
• 34:30
  Grant: didn't come back.
• 34:32
  Grant: Uh, a lot of them are back now, but a lot of the musicians that I just mentioned are still living in Canada, still living in Vancouver, Montreal, Toronto, Halifax.
• 34:43
  Grant: And
• 34:44
  Glen: Well, that boom was pretty like for me, like that was extremely formative.
• 34:48
  Glen: Uh, I mean, there were
• 34:49
  Grant: I mean, you were part of it.
• 34:51
  Glen: well, even prior to that though, I think it was, I guess I'll say it was probably the beacon for me in my desires, right?
• 35:00
  Glen: That like, even prior to discovering radio three, I had discovered brave new waves, right?
• 35:06
  Glen: Which
• 35:06
  Grant: Right.
• 35:06
  Grant: Yeah.
• 35:07
  Grant: I mean, Brave New Ways was huge in the 80s and 90s for a generation
• 35:12
  Glen: and it was the like the indie version of video hits for me to see
• 35:17
  Grant: mean, it was the first place I heard, you know, yeah, first place I heard No Means No, first place I heard Shadowy Men on a Shadowy Planet, you know, those, those types of bands and yeah, Radio 3 kind of became like the daylight version of that.
• 35:32
  Grant: Now, some hardcore Brave New Waves fans would argue that, but I think we took it, we took what Brave New Waves did late at night.
• 35:45
  Grant: And we brought it to the daylight and we brought it to a much, much, much larger audience.
• 35:52
  Grant: Uh, that was global.
• 35:54
  Grant: And, I mean, the podcast became so global that we put up a huge map on the wall at CBC Radio 3.
• 36:03
  Grant: And, and we got a, we used to get just a ton of mail for that show.
• 36:07
  Grant: And we would get mail from far flung Canadians all over the world.
• 36:11
  Grant: And every time we got a letter from someplace, we'd put a pin in the map.
• 36:15
  Grant: And within a couple of years, that, that map was just had little pins all over it.
• 36:21
  Grant: It was
• 36:21
  Glen: Well,
• 36:22
  Grant: very, very exciting
• 36:23
  Glen: Isn't that a delicious irony that it was so groundbreaking?
• 36:28
  Glen: To me when I look back right now so groundbreaking as this online format delivery it was like nobody else hardly anyone was using the word podcast for
• 36:39
  Grant: No, I didn't know what the hell it was.
• 36:41
  Grant: And I thought it was a
• 36:42
  Glen: but here you're getting like physical mail still delivered to you by
• 36:46
  Grant: Oh, no, that, that was, I'm talking to email.
• 36:48
  Glen: Oh, okay.
• 36:49
  Grant: I mean, there was some physical mail, but it was, it was like primarily email.
• 36:53
  Glen: Well, I mean, I'm curious what your perspective in the middle of that time was because yeah, there's this incredible boom in the music community happening and just around the world globally.
• 37:06
  Glen: And we had this unique flavor that we were delivering, which I felt really exciting.
• 37:11
  Glen: So as an aspiring musician, I had all the inspiration in front of me that I needed, right?
• 37:16
  Glen: Of people that were in, that I could relate to, right?
• 37:20
  Glen: Carving a path for me, people from our own neighborhoods.
• 37:23
  Glen: And But this to do this show that was online and then you created this community that would like log in while you were live and basically it was like a chat forum.
• 37:38
  Glen: I try to explain this to people now.
• 37:40
  Glen: I said like it was a chat forum when nobody was really using chat forums commonly.
• 37:45
  Grant: and amazingly enough, it was polite and respectful.
• 37:48
  Glen: it would open when your show opened, right?
• 37:51
  Glen: And then people would talk and I remember logging in, there'd be 650, 850, a thousand people online at any given time.
• 37:59
  Glen: Um, I'm just curious, you know, somebody had to be pretty visionary at CBC with all of
• 38:08
  Grant: Steve Pratt.
• 38:09
  Glen: Is it all Steve Pratt?
• 38:10
  Glen: And,
• 38:11
  Grant: I mean, I
• 38:12
  Glen: have the license from a corporation.
• 38:14
  Grant: I, I, I, I, we had an amazing team of developers as well.
• 38:19
  Grant: You know, I think of John Palazzi, who, who ran that blog.
• 38:23
  Grant: And I think of Phil Rabin, who was very creative Scott mock.
• 38:27
  Grant: There was a lot of extremely Nicole Goodman, a lot of extremely creative people behind the scenes.
• 38:33
  Grant: Who are creating the engines.
• 38:34
  Grant: So what you're referring to here is when, you know, the podcast was, it was a hit and it spawned other podcasts like the R3 Top 30 and Lisa Christensen had a talk podcast called Appetite for Distraction.
• 38:49
  Grant: And then what we moved into was when satellite radio came along, uh, CBC Radio 3 got its own channel.
• 38:57
  Grant: And so we were simultaneously broadcasting live on Sirius Uh, so that's North America and then also just live on, on the web.
• 39:08
  Grant: And so we would be live, we would have a live blog post going where I would put up some topic for the day and some article I'd write every single, every single morning I'd write some little think piece and then put it up there.
• 39:24
  Grant: And then as you say, people will get into the comments and they would literally have a live chat.
• 39:30
  Grant: In the comments, uh, throughout the entire show and this would go into Lisa's show and it would go into Craig's show and all the other shows, but it was, I was right in the middle of the day.
• 39:41
  Grant: And so people could just like, you know, keep the wind, the radio three window, like, just like I'm doing now with my ratty old headphones.
• 39:49
  Grant: I see here.
• 39:50
  Grant: Um, they can, They would be at work and they'd be on a computer just like we are now and they'd be doing their work, but one of the windows would be Radio 3, so they'd be listening to the show, and then if something struck them, they'd just close the window of their work, go to the Radio 3, and put in a comment, uh, you know, just to be part of the discussion.
• 40:09
  Grant: Now we had, uh, like a, a front of house.
• 40:13
  Grant: Like diehard group of fans that would be there every single day.
• 40:17
  Grant: I'm still friends with a whole bunch of them.
• 40:19
  Grant: There's a Facebook group still dedicated to it where a lot of them communicate and, um, and I would liken that experience in my life, that live period on radio three to the television show cheers, where I was like, you know, Sam or Woody or whatever the bartender and the people.
• 40:42
  Grant: The characters that would sit around the bar were like our regulars on Radio 3, like Cliff and Norm, whatever, Frasier.
• 40:51
  Grant: And then the people that you would see that never got any lines, that, that they were filling the bar and the seats around, The, you know, basically the, the extras on the show.
• 41:04
  Grant: Well, those were kind of our background listeners.
• 41:07
  Grant: So we had the, you know, the, the, the people that, that listened but didn't engage.
• 41:11
  Grant: So we had, and there were far more of them than there were the front of house people.
• 41:16
  Grant: And so we had this very, very, very active audience where essentially almost characters would be created.
• 41:24
  Grant: Um, Like famous Lee Howard down in Sacramento, California, uh, or Christine McAvoy in Vancouver or, you know, uh, Rebby out in St.
• 41:33
  Grant: John's Newfoundland.
• 41:34
  Glen: Who's the guy?
• 41:34
  Grant: become like,
• 41:35
  Glen: it Winnipeg or Brandon the guy the
• 41:38
  Grant: Oh yeah.
• 41:38
  Grant: There are people
• 41:39
  Glen: I forget that
• 41:39
  Grant: who Cody, Cody Labrow.
• 41:42
  Grant: Yeah.
• 41:43
  Grant: Still friends with him too.
• 41:45
  Grant: And, um, and they all had their little blog names and everything.
• 41:48
  Grant: And, uh, But they created a network of friendships and that, again, lasts to this day.
• 41:55
  Grant: They, they started online and they moved into, quote, real life or whatever you want to call it.
• 42:01
  Grant: And that was, and what formed was a community, a community with the central, love of Canadian music, music in general.
• 42:11
  Grant: And, uh, that was a very, very special time.
• 42:14
  Grant: A lot of people look, a lot of people that were involved look back on it as a magical time.
• 42:21
  Grant: And I do as well.
• 42:22
  Grant: I mean, there were times where, like, I did that show Monday to Friday, live, every day.
• 42:28
  Grant: And sometimes I'd be like, Oh man, it's the same people day in, day out.
• 42:32
  Grant: But I, by the time we were wrapping up that show, because all things end, and I believe I did the last live broadcast, maybe 2017, something like that, it was like a, it was like a sob fest.
• 42:47
  Grant: Like everyone was crying.
• 42:48
  Grant: I was crying.
• 42:48
  Grant: The listeners were crying.
• 42:49
  Grant: The musicians that we had on special guests were crying.
• 42:53
  Grant: It was just, it was, we, we, Kind of realized it was the end of an era and that was when CBC Radio 3 sort of morphed into the larger more mainstream platform of CBC music which still exists to this day Which is what I'm involved in now.
• 43:12
  Grant: I now identify as You know Grant Lawrence from CBC music But yeah that that was an emotional time and I think when it did end that's when you realize oh, this is actually You incredibly special and a real honour.
• 43:28
  Grant: A lot of the hosts felt this way.
• 43:31
  Grant: It was such an honour to be able to have that platform, to rock out, you know, to Matt Mays, or Cadence Weapon, or whatever, full volume in our little studio, and have guests come in all day long, musicians on tour, and then have our audience be in constant conversation.
• 43:49
  Grant: So it was, it was just fluidity.
• 43:51
  Grant: It was just fluidity.
• 43:53
  Glen: Well,
• 43:53
  Grant: You know, emails, blog comments, phone calls.
• 43:56
  Grant: We did it all on that show and it was a
• 43:59
  Glen: and I think the community that was built and the way you sort of characterized it.
• 44:03
  Glen: There is pretty key because I think I'm not really a historian type, but I always try to draw threads.
• 44:11
  Glen: To the present, um, I mean, if I were to earmark one thing, I think it's interesting that in commercial radio right now, at least the ones I see around here, they're all thematically, the ones that are succeeding, the hosts are creating a program and they start a conversation.
• 44:30
  Glen: I'm using air quotes for anyone who's
• 44:32
  Grant: Yeah.
• 44:32
  Grant: Yeah, because sometimes it sounds
• 44:34
  Glen: But it's just like what you described was 25 years ago, 20 years ago doing exactly that with your show online.
• 44:42
  Glen: You would just go online and you would find a topic.
• 44:45
  Glen: You would let a group gather around that topic or around what was happening in the music.
• 44:49
  Glen: I
• 44:50
  Grant: Yeah.
• 44:50
  Grant: And you know, what's, what's interesting, Glen is, is a lot of the ideas, I don't know if I've ever told anyone this, except for maybe producers that a lot of the ideas that I, uh, employed or whatever, or, or that I used on radio three, I got from sports radio.
• 45:11
  Grant: You know, like poll, poll question of the day, you know, uh, you know, cause sports radio is filled with all these little segments here and there.
• 45:21
  Grant: And I got so, because you know, I'm a, I'm a big, big hockey fan.
• 45:26
  Grant: And so I would listen to sports talk radio.
• 45:30
  Grant: And I got so many ideas and people didn't even realize that they were, that these ideas were basically being poached from sports radio and then applied to music, but it worked just as well.
• 45:43
  Glen: That's pretty great.
• 45:45
  Glen: Like, I, I love talking about that community from the perspective you have.
• 45:50
  Glen: Like, my perspective, because I, like you identified earlier, was part of a band.
• 45:54
  Glen: I was the one doing most or sometimes all of the dirty grunt work of trying to get attention and find ways.
• 46:03
  Glen: Like, so, like I said earlier, Dan and I both felt like we were trying to get your attention at one point.
• 46:09
  Glen: Like, one way was Uh, our band played in a beer league here, so I got us to go to the Exclaim Cup because I knew that you'd be there.
• 46:18
  Glen: And, and a couple other people, but I'm like, I want to talk to them in that context and build a relationship.
• 46:23
  Glen: Or, when we released our second record, to the chagrin of, uh, Ken Beattie, wonderful publicist, Killbeat, um, I was going to Vancouver to pick up the physical copies, and I sussed out whether you would have me on the air and you did like pretty spur of the moment.
• 46:43
  Glen: And of course, Ken was like, that doesn't fit the publicity plan, uh, to go get it played already ahead of the advance.
• 46:50
  Glen: But I'm like, I don't care.
• 46:52
  Glen: Like I need this time and I need this conversation.
• 46:56
  Glen: Um,
• 46:57
  Grant: yeah.
• 46:57
  Grant: Ken's great.
• 46:58
  Grant: I love him.
• 46:59
  Grant: He, basically, I consider him my publicist, too, for my books and stuff like that.
• 47:03
  Grant: Um, but, you know, I think with your band, I was just really interested in the Canadiana of the name.
• 47:09
  Grant: You know, like, you hooked me with your band name, which, um, you know, because I was always being, you know, at the CBC, we're always on the lookout, um, for better or for worse, of anything
• 47:21
  Glen: content.
• 47:21
  Glen: Yeah.
• 47:22
  Grant: Strikes as Canadiana because that way we can, you know, reflect ourselves back We can reflect Canada back on to the listeners and the listeners are into it So yeah that it wasn't wasn't to eat wasn't too hard to hook me with you guys Dan.
• 47:38
  Grant: It was harder because You know, there's only one band called The Wheat Pool But Dan Mangan, there's a there was you know at the time You bands were really what was hot and singer songwriters, singer songwriters dime a dozen, you know, like, what is this guy Hayden?
• 48:02
  Grant: Like, who does he think he is?
• 48:03
  Grant: Like, this curly haired, who is he?
• 48:06
  Grant: Seth Rogen?
• 48:07
  Grant: Like, what is this guy?
• 48:08
  Grant: And, uh, what's his thing?
• 48:11
  Grant: And I don't know if he told you, did he tell you the, the story of, uh, when I first heard Dan?
• 48:19
  Glen: No, I I don't think he did.
• 48:20
  Glen: No.
• 48:21
  Grant: Okay.
• 48:21
  Grant: Well, this is a, this is a, uh, this story has been like been in like spin magazine and stuff.
• 48:28
  Grant: And I think.
• 48:29
  Grant: Dan's pretty sick of it.
• 48:30
  Grant: But I used to host a really infamous kind of musician's Christmas party every year at my apartment down on Beach Avenue in the West End.
• 48:40
  Grant: And it would just, it would be an apartment, but it would be packed with everyone from the music scene.
• 48:46
  Grant: And I would get a couple of bands to play acoustically, like beside the Christmas tree.
• 48:52
  Grant: And one year Said the Whale did it.
• 48:55
  Grant: And so I'd quiet everyone down, quiet the 120 people jammed in there.
• 49:00
  Grant: And I'd say, okay, here's Said the Whale.
• 49:02
  Grant: And they would play like three songs or something like that.
• 49:04
  Grant: And then.
• 49:05
  Grant: And that was it.
• 49:06
  Grant: And then the party would rage.
• 49:08
  Grant: And then, I remember this one year, Said the Whale played three songs acoustically.
• 49:13
  Grant: And then the party starts rockin Fully.
• 49:16
  Grant: Because, you know, after the live performance, it just sort of ramps up with music, and dancing, and drinking, and everything else.
• 49:24
  Grant: And Tyler Bancroft, still a really good friend, came up to me and said, Hey, there's a guy here.
• 49:32
  Grant: musician and I think you should let him play.
• 49:35
  Grant: I'm like, let him play.
• 49:36
  Grant: What do you do?
• 49:38
  Grant: What are you talking about?
• 49:40
  Grant: He goes, I think you should let him play the party right now.
• 49:42
  Grant: I'm like, are you nuts?
• 49:44
  Grant: The party is reaching.
• 49:46
  Grant: It's like apex of chaos.
• 49:49
  Grant: Like the last thing I'm going to have is some, you know, guitarists like the scene from animal house where, uh, Belushi smashes the acoustic guitar over the singer songwriter's head.
• 50:00
  Grant: You know, like my Love gave me a flower that had just That's what I like envisioned was was gonna happen and tyler was like trust me This guy's name is Dan Mangan.
• 50:16
  Grant: I looked over at him, I'm like, he looks like a, like a teddy bear or something.
• 50:20
  Grant: He's gonna be eaten alive.
• 50:22
  Grant: And, and you know, like there were punks there and you know, SERS and, but Tyler, which he says to me a lot to this day, said, just trust me.
• 50:34
  Grant: Trust me on this one.
• 50:36
  Grant: So I'm like, oh my God, this is going against all my instincts, but all right, fine.
• 50:42
  Grant: So Dan gets out his, very eagerly, gets out his acoustic guitar.
• 50:45
  Grant: I'm just like rolling my eyes, shaking my head.
• 50:49
  Grant: And he goes up, and To the Christmas tree in the living room and I quiet managed to quiet everyone down I had to do the wedding trick.
• 50:58
  Grant: I got like a fork and a wineglass and that has a Frequency that cuts above conversation that actually really works.
• 51:06
  Grant: So everyone quieted down.
• 51:07
  Grant: I said, hey, you know, I know you're all having a great time I'm just gonna interrupt that good time by Introducing this singer songwriter who I've never heard of but his name is Dan Mangan and Dan Mangan Floor is yours for a couple songs.
• 51:21
  Grant: So he did his first song and he had this like, as you know, he's got this, like, he doesn't use it all that much.
• 51:29
  Grant: I guess he still does time, but he has his baritone and he, what he did was from playing so many open my thankless open mics and cafes and et cetera, he had developed this, this vocal baritone style.
• 51:46
  Grant: Well, just like the wine glass, but the baritone style could cut through conversation and attract attention.
• 51:54
  Grant: And he did it at this party and everyone shut up.
• 51:57
  Grant: And I'm like, Oh my God.
• 51:59
  Grant: So he did one song, uh, Tina's glorious comeback or something like that.
• 52:04
  Grant: And then he followed up with robots.
• 52:08
  Grant: And I swear to God, I have, I was stunned.
• 52:13
  Grant: Uh, he not only played the song, but, and got this, this, this roaring party to pin drop silence, but he got everyone in the party singing along.
• 52:27
  Grant: Robots need love too.
• 52:32
  Grant: They want to be loved by you.
• 52:35
  Grant: And the whole apartment is, they'd never heard the song before.
• 52:38
  Grant: No, one's ever heard the song before the whole apartment is singing the song.
• 52:42
  Grant: I'm looking around.
• 52:43
  Grant: I look at Nardwar, Nardwar looks at me and we're like, who the, who is this guy?
• 52:48
  Grant: And it was an incredible moment.
• 52:51
  Grant: And it was pivotal for Dan because it was all sorts of Vancouver industry movers and shakers in that room.
• 52:59
  Grant: And all of a sudden, like, you know, the guy who booked the anthem singers for the Vancouver Canucks was at the party.
• 53:08
  Grant: And within a month, Dan was singing the anthem.
• 53:13
  Grant: for the Vancouver Canucks.
• 53:15
  Grant: And so it was, he, Dan was very, very, very smart, opportunistic guy.
• 53:22
  Grant: And, uh, that was my introduction to Dan
• 53:27
  Glen: Well, now that you tell it, he did tell me that story, but a very, very short version of it that just was about how Tyler advocated for him and you resisted.
• 53:37
  Glen: But,
• 53:38
  Grant: did.
• 53:38
  Grant: And so there's, see,
• 53:40
  Glen: a great, yeah, that's a great perspective.
• 53:42
  Glen: I, I, like one of the things, like when we're talking about.
• 53:47
  Glen: This incredible thing that happened with this online community.
• 53:52
  Glen: Um, Dan and I both sort of shared was the way we, we put our attention on that.
• 53:58
  Glen: Like I literally like The Wheat Pool for me, right?
• 54:01
  Glen: Like I, I learned later.
• 54:05
  Glen: that if I really wanted a lot of money and more success, I probably should have gone after an older and a different demographic.
• 54:12
  Glen: But the indie crowd meant so much to me.
• 54:15
  Glen: I spent all my energy.
• 54:16
  Glen: So I would log in.
• 54:18
  Glen: You probably don't even remember.
• 54:20
  Glen: Sometimes I would call in and try to be the one to answer your trivia prize.
• 54:23
  Glen: And I even was successful a couple of times, but anything because you were always so gracious as to be willing to like Put a plug in for like, I like your band, blah, blah, blah.
• 54:34
  Glen: But then we just do the bit.
• 54:36
  Glen: And, but I would go online and I was like, why don't I just start interacting with these people?
• 54:43
  Glen: Like, there's no pretension of, of, um, cooler than that as a band.
• 54:47
  Glen: I'm like, these are the people I want to know.
• 54:49
  Glen: And, and as a result.
• 54:52
  Glen: We started going across Canada and I wanted to play all the classic venues, right?
• 54:56
  Glen: I wanted to play the railway and I want to play the sidetrack here in Edmonton.
• 55:00
  Glen: I want to play the Dakota Tavern in, in Toronto.
• 55:02
  Glen: So I wanted to play these iconic venues.
• 55:05
  Glen: And the people that came and brought friends that I didn't know on those first tours were all Radio 3 people, right?
• 55:11
  Glen: They, they would come up and identify themselves.
• 55:14
  Grant: Or they would often be
• 55:15
  Glen: Or wearing some version of something they had got or won a
• 55:19
  Grant: a scarf
• 55:20
  Glen: and
• 55:20
  Grant: a t
• 55:21
  Glen: but.
• 55:22
  Glen: Um, I mean, the impact, I think it's great that you started this by talking about how you're still like your friends with Dan to this day and your families do stuff.
• 55:30
  Glen: And the most important thing to you is friends.
• 55:33
  Glen: I mean, the impact of that community, I don't know if you recall, well, you must recall this.
• 55:39
  Glen: It was pretty, but my side of this story is after the band, our brand broke up in 2012.
• 55:44
  Glen: Uh, I went to North by Northeast.
• 55:49
  Glen: that like three months later in June, maybe two months later from when we broke up.
• 55:54
  Glen: It was like still really raw for me, but,
• 55:57
  Grant: hmm.
• 55:58
  Glen: uh, my friend who's an artist now in Toronto, uh, Vancouver, originally Adaline, uh, Shawna, um, we were hanging out and she's like, you know the radio three years have a picnic at this thing every year you should go.
• 56:11
  Glen: And I resisted because I felt This weird, I don't know, shame or not shame or embarrassment, but the feeling of like, it's hard for me to go and talk and the band isn't together anymore.
• 56:24
  Glen: And I'm going to have to answer that question 50 times.
• 56:27
  Glen: And I was sort of just feeling too raw or I thought I was feeling too raw to do it.
• 56:32
  Glen: Anyhow, we show up at the picnic and you probably remember this.
• 56:35
  Glen: So you were there.
• 56:37
  Glen: Um, You were tapped to do this sort of faux wedding that you were
• 56:44
  Grant: Oh, yeah.
• 56:45
  Grant: That wasn't a faux wedding.
• 56:46
  Grant: That was a real
• 56:46
  Glen: Was that the, I thought they did the official papery stuff
• 56:50
  Grant: No, that was a real
• 56:51
  Glen: Oh, that was the real one.
• 56:52
  Glen: Okay.
• 56:52
  Glen: Well, there you go.
• 56:53
  Grant: was real.
• 56:53
  Grant: They got
• 56:54
  Glen: these radio three years, yeah.
• 56:56
  Glen: Who met on your show in the comment section.
• 57:00
  Glen: Um, we would go through, when we go through Windsor, he would come and see us all the time and bring us
• 57:06
  Grant: yeah.
• 57:06
  Grant: He's from Dearborn, Michigan.
• 57:08
  Grant: Russ Gordon.
• 57:09
  Glen: And, uh, he's an absolute beauty and Kath is an absolute beauty.
• 57:13
  Glen: And, and they're gonna do these vows with you officiating.
• 57:19
  Grant: Yeah, I didn't officiate.
• 57:20
  Grant: I was like a witness or something.
• 57:22
  Grant: Um, I'm trying to remember.
• 57:25
  Grant: There was, there was an officiant
• 57:28
  Glen: okay.
• 57:29
  Grant: uh, I think I can remember his blog name.
• 57:32
  Grant: It was X Canuck.
• 57:34
  Glen: Oh, that's, yeah.
• 57:35
  Glen: So, yeah.
• 57:36
  Glen: He's a good friend of
• 57:37
  Grant: he, he, he's also from the Detroit or Ann Arbor, I
• 57:41
  Glen: He was originally, he's moved around a bit since then, but
• 57:44
  Grant: Yeah.
• 57:44
  Grant: So he officiated, he got like a license.
• 57:48
  Grant: He officiated for them and he married them and I was like the witness or something
• 57:54
  Glen: And the opening line of Kathy's Vows were, uh, the line from our single from Hauntario.
• 58:02
  Glen: And it was one of the most emotional, probably deeply rooted, connected feelings I've ever had as a musician in the scene.
• 58:12
  Glen: To just randomly show up to these people.
• 58:14
  Glen: people that I knew who they were and have this thing get honored in that the importance to them.
• 58:21
  Glen: Now, fast forward when we did reunion shows like five years or seven years after we did our first reunion show, uh, Kathy and Russ and, and X Canuck, they all flew out.
• 58:34
  Glen: They all flew to Edmonton
• 58:35
  Grant: Amit.
• 58:35
  Grant: Amit is
• 58:37
  Glen: right.
• 58:37
  Grant: Yeah.
• 58:38
  Glen: They all flew out to our show too.
• 58:40
  Glen: Like, that's pretty incredible.
• 58:43
  Grant: Yeah, they flew out for the reunion at the Smugglers show too.
• 58:47
  Glen: amazing.
• 58:47
  Glen: So
• 58:48
  Grant: yeah, no, it's, it's very incredible the, the dedication and you're not the only musician that would wade in.
• 58:56
  Grant: I, I always thought it was a good idea to, um, you know, Dan would do it.
• 59:01
  Grant: Um, the guys from the matinee would do it.
• 59:04
  Grant: Uh, who's the, the, uh, Richard Aucoin from Halifax.
• 59:08
  Grant: We'll get on there and do it.
• 59:10
  Grant: I mean, people realized, Oh, here's a really dedicated fan base.
• 59:14
  Grant: I can just communicate directly with and, and they, yeah, you're right.
• 59:19
  Grant: Like they would just love you for it forever.
• 59:22
  Glen: Let me, let me ask you about your role in, in that, which I know it's changed in transition and maybe that's part of the explanation or story, but I've had a lot of conversations about curation.
• 59:36
  Glen: Um, and.
• 59:38
  Glen: And it's not just in the music world, but, you know, you are part of what feels like a golden era of curation, but you were handed an opportunity that I think even at that time, at least my outside perspective was people didn't sort of get to have that much control and say, which is really perhaps what elevates this idea of a curator, of somebody who's actually, uh, It's intentionally not using the word of a gatekeeper, right?
• 1:00:10
  Glen: It's like just a curator.
• 1:00:11
  Glen: It's somebody who is a tastemaker.
• 1:00:14
  Glen: like everything's been turned over to the algorithms as the curators is what it feels like in modern wise, but that was so It felt like literally the gate you needed to go through to achieve any version of CRED in the indie scene in Canada.
• 1:00:32
  Glen: In the time, did you actively feel like that's what you were doing?
• 1:00:38
  Grant: A little bit.
• 1:00:39
  Grant: I mean, it's funny.
• 1:00:41
  Grant: Uh, sometimes I think, like, for whatever reason, I've always been, you know, when I was at, you know, Mint Records, we would be deluged with demo tapes.
• 1:00:53
  Grant: And it would be like, Sign our band, sign our band, sign our band, please sign our band, please.
• 1:00:57
  Grant: Or when we did All Ages shows, Nardwar and I would be like, Can our band play?
• 1:01:01
  Grant: Can our band play?
• 1:01:02
  Grant: And then, at Radio 3, it would be, Play our music on the radio, play our music.
• 1:01:07
  Grant: And still, that is, happens to an extent.
• 1:01:11
  Grant: But, you know, so everyone's pitching everyone constantly.
• 1:01:14
  Grant: Life's a pitch.
• 1:01:15
  Grant: and it's all over the place and people are always pitching me and there's only so much that you can absorb and um, but I'm not sure if, I suppose we felt, I mean there were, there was a point at Radio 3 around maybe 2006 2007 where we were like, You know, we were, we, the first Polaris Prize came along and we were very much involved in that.
• 1:01:46
  Grant: And it was all the bands that were in rotation on Radio 3.
• 1:01:51
  Grant: So, that first Polaris Prize just looks like the year end list of Radio 3.
• 1:01:57
  Grant: It was like Sarah Harmer, The Deadly Snakes, Wolf Parade.
• 1:02:01
  Grant: Broken social scene metric, et cetera.
• 1:02:03
  Grant: New pornographers.
• 1:02:04
  Grant: I might be blurring the first two years, final fantasy.
• 1:02:08
  Grant: Um, so I suppose there was a little bit of that, but at the same time, my goal was simply to play the best music, let people know why they should care about the music and form community, form an audience.
• 1:02:25
  Grant: And that was it.
• 1:02:26
  Grant: Like I didn't, I didn't like.
• 1:02:31
  Grant: being any sort of like authoritarian or being a gatekeeper or anything like that.
• 1:02:37
  Grant: I just wanted to share the music, share why it was amazing and get people to hear it, like build up the audience.
• 1:02:47
  Grant: And the, the podcast audience was massive.
• 1:02:51
  Grant: It was out of control.
• 1:02:53
  Grant: It was like, you know, over a hundred thousand.
• 1:02:57
  Grant: weekly listeners and, um, which was caught everyone at the CBC by total surprise again, visionaries behind the scenes, not me.
• 1:03:09
  Grant: And then, uh, the web and live radio was a smaller audience.
• 1:03:17
  Grant: because it was live and on demand, you can listen whenever the hell you want.
• 1:03:23
  Grant: So, uh, that catered to the listening habits a little more than, than live appointment listening.
• 1:03:29
  Grant: The audience was smaller, but it was so dedicated and, um, so Interesting.
• 1:03:37
  Grant: And we learned all these stories from all these people and it was incredibly supportive.
• 1:03:42
  Grant: You know, I often, you see this sometimes on Facebook now, but, you know, if someone was having a bad day on that radio three blog, they'd come on and they would say like, oh man, I just got fired or, you know, I can't pay my rent or whatever.
• 1:03:58
  Grant: And I would call it the dolphin effect because, um.
• 1:04:02
  Grant: When a dolphin is struggling in a pod, like say there's a dolphin that's sick or whatever, the other dolphins, and this has been documented many, many times, the other dolphins will swim under the dolphin and take turns propping up the dolphin so the blowhole can be above the surface of the ocean so the dolphin won't drown.
• 1:04:25
  Grant: And that's the way it works.
• 1:04:27
  Grant: Metaphorically, what I saw on that blog is that other people would rush to lift the spirits of the person that was down.
• 1:04:36
  Grant: Gets me a little emotional thinking about it because, you know, the internet is a cesspool most of the time and it wasn't on that, on Radio 3 and that's what made it so special.
• 1:04:50
  Glen: Yeah, I I don't even know if I It would sound like mythical.
• 1:04:55
  Glen: If I tried to explain that to my kids right now
• 1:04:58
  Grant: Oh, there's a lot of, um, people that, um, Yeah, like you try to explain it now and people go like, what?
• 1:05:05
  Grant: Like, how does that even exist?
• 1:05:07
  Grant: And yeah, you're right.
• 1:05:08
  Grant: Like it's just so nasty now and but and and the interesting thing is, you know, there are many many many theories about why people are nasty.
• 1:05:17
  Grant: And one of them is most people point to that.
• 1:05:22
  Grant: You're anonymous.
• 1:05:23
  Grant: You can create a name.
• 1:05:25
  Grant: That's not your name.
• 1:05:27
  Grant: Um, you know, Timbit 3000 XOX, and you can say whatever the hell you want.
• 1:05:33
  Grant: What the reversal happened in the radio three community.
• 1:05:37
  Grant: People did create those, those funny names, but they didn't hide behind them.
• 1:05:43
  Grant: They shared and it was a very, very human experience.
• 1:05:49
  Grant: And there was none of the vitriol and none of the garbage that we see on, you stuff like that, um, uh, or some other sharing platforms.
• 1:06:00
  Grant: So, you know, I always point to it as, as even at the CBC, within the CBC, when they say, Oh, our comments, there's, they're terrible.
• 1:06:08
  Grant: And I always point, I say, build community, you build community.
• 1:06:13
  Grant: It's just like being in a friendly neighborhood, right?
• 1:06:15
  Grant: You say hi to your neighbors.
• 1:06:17
  Grant: That's what breaks things down.
• 1:06:20
  Grant: And that's what makes the neighborhood safer.
• 1:06:22
  Grant: When you build community, it's all about community.
• 1:06:26
  Grant: You know, love, family, community.
• 1:06:27
  Grant: There's those three words.
• 1:06:29
  Grant: That's what builds up society.
• 1:06:30
  Glen: Well, definitely something that doesn't feel like the algorithms are including in their, in their efforts to curate in modern day.
• 1:06:40
  Glen: So, Again, with the overlap of your eras, that starts to come to a close.
• 1:06:47
  Glen: You write a book in 2010 and it feels like the next 10 years are sort of more hallmarked by your books and your writing and stuff than, than your radio personality.
• 1:06:59
  Glen: Perhaps, I mean, maybe depends on who's watching, but I'm wondering like how, how long was that overlap?
• 1:07:07
  Glen: Was it?
• 1:07:07
  Glen: Did it feel like I know you talked about the tears and stuff of radio three ending, but personally, was that was the changes happening that time?
• 1:07:17
  Glen: Was that a risky or a scary time for you?
• 1:07:20
  Glen: Or did you have a
• 1:07:21
  Grant: It was a change is always scary for me, but I was ready for the change of radio three because doing a live show every single day, five days a week is totally exhausting and I, you know, the, the audience seemingly wasn't ready for a change, but I was ready for a change.
• 1:07:43
  Grant: And I, you know, I, my, I started really focusing on artistic pursuits outside of the CBC, you know, writing my books.
• 1:07:53
  Grant: I now have, I think, four books for adults and two books for kids.
• 1:07:59
  Grant: Um, and I started working on different projects at the CBC.
• 1:08:04
  Grant: We developed the Canadian Music Class Challenge, which still goes to this day, which is, it's happening right now, actually, where we, it's all still based in Canadian music lore.
• 1:08:14
  Grant: We put out a list of Canadian songs and we get teachers to, to bring the Canadian songs into the classroom and teach the kids so that kids are learning the Canadian songbook at a very young age.
• 1:08:28
  Grant: And a lot of the songs are plucked from those Radio 3 classics, you know, Bedouin Soundclash, When the Night Hears My Song or whatever.
• 1:08:37
  Grant: And, you know, Safe and Sound by Hoxie Workman and, and, uh, any song by Feist, but so That was occupied my time at CBC for a while.
• 1:08:48
  Grant: The top 20 I've been doing now for years.
• 1:08:51
  Grant: So, but yeah, I mean, I basically discovered the entire, you know, literary community and the book community and had success with that.
• 1:09:01
  Grant: In fact, uh, my first book, Adventures in Solitude to this day is still the most.
• 1:09:07
  Grant: And it was, again, one of those things where people are like, Oh, you're writing.
• 1:09:10
  Grant: I wrote that book about a place that.
• 1:09:13
  Grant: We have essentially a summer cabin, uh, a place called Desolation Sound in British Columbia.
• 1:09:19
  Grant: And everyone advised me not to, they said, publish the Smugglers Tour Diaries.
• 1:09:24
  Grant: You know, that's what everybody knows.
• 1:09:26
  Grant: You've got them all written, do that.
• 1:09:27
  Grant: But I was, I was like, Oh, why don't I just like, I've been in, I was in, I've been entrenched in music for so long that I really wanted to just break free of that and just write about something essentially, totally different.
• 1:09:40
  Grant: And so, I immersed myself in that desolation sound world.
• 1:09:45
  Grant: Thanks actually to a CBC lockout, uh, that happened in the mid 2000s.
• 1:09:50
  Grant: I ended up spending a lot more time up there and discovering a lot of the stories that I kind of knew as a kid, but they really started opening up for me, uh, with an extended period up there.
• 1:10:02
  Grant: And I wrote that book and it ended up becoming to this, to this day, the most successful piece of art that I've ever put out into the world.
• 1:10:10
  Grant: Uh, it was a kind of luck and happenstance.
• 1:10:13
  Grant: I didn't know.
• 1:10:15
  Grant: But the magical thing is that people could relate to it.
• 1:10:19
  Grant: So they related to a kid being dragged to a wilderness place that I wasn't really that comfortable in when I was a kid, then rejecting it when I was a teenager for rock and roll and bands and then rediscovering it as an adult and going, Oh my God, how could I have forsaken this
• 1:10:36
  Glen: Well, that's a pretty great arc by itself,
• 1:10:38
  Grant: Yeah, and apparently a lot of other people have gone through similar arcs because I cannot tell you over the, I mean, the book's been out for 14 years.
• 1:10:49
  Grant: I cannot tell you the amount of times that people have come up to me and said, Oh, that reminds me of my experience in Newfoundland or in Michigan or in Manitoba or wherever.
• 1:11:03
  Grant: And I'm like, Oh wow.
• 1:11:05
  Grant: And you know, my takeaway from that is people enjoy art that they can relate to, you know, uh,
• 1:11:13
  Glen: stories that stories cross.
• 1:11:16
  Glen: Stories
• 1:11:17
  Grant: Yeah.
• 1:11:17
  Grant: Yeah.
• 1:11:18
  Grant: But I mean, the tragically hip or a relatable band, because they would, They wouldn't drape a Canadian flag over their shoulders, but they would.
• 1:11:26
  Grant: sing about songs or stories that we could relate to growing up as Canadians, you know, Weakerthans, similar at their lyrics, and Joel Plaskett's similar, you know, he sings, sings about the collective experience.
• 1:11:40
  Grant: So, uh, I stumbled into that with my first book, and it's basically created a career for me.
• 1:11:48
  Grant: based around the stories of Desolation Sound.
• 1:11:51
  Grant: I, I've written about other things.
• 1:11:52
  Grant: I've written about beer league hockey and I've written about the Smugglers, but the most successful stuff that the stories that people want to hear time and time again at my live shows are, are always the Desolation Sound
• 1:12:06
  Glen: Well, I think that's, you know, and you know, you pair that with social media, which at that time it was still if we are looking back now.
• 1:12:16
  Glen: Relative infancy, right?
• 1:12:18
  Glen: Like 2010 and you were putting yourself out there like You you could see you on your boat You know what?
• 1:12:26
  Glen: I mean in desolation sound like for me It made it so easy because i'm of the age group that I could read that book And all I and I my brain could fill all the pictures in with the beachcombers
• 1:12:37
  Grant: Yes, exactly.
• 1:12:38
  Glen: I had this very canadiana Uh relativity like it made that It all made sense to me and, um,
• 1:12:47
  Grant: the beachcombers, I, I, you know, I grew up with the beachcombers.
• 1:12:50
  Grant: So many of us did in Canada.
• 1:12:52
  Grant: And, you know, my dad used to say, I, I, my sister and I would be like, why are we going here?
• 1:12:58
  Grant: And he said, it's the real life beachcombers.
• 1:13:00
  Grant: Okay, kids.
• 1:13:01
  Grant: So get in the car.
• 1:13:02
  Grant: Let's go.
• 1:13:03
  Grant: And I, you know, I, I definitely.
• 1:13:10
  Grant: played into that knowing that when I was writing that book saying, okay, this is, you know, this is like the Beachcombers and, and, and it was, it was, and still is really a lot like
• 1:13:23
  Glen: but it's like saying this actually has been preserved in time.
• 1:13:28
  Glen: What everybody looks at as a snapshot from a, a television program is actually preserved in time somewhere is very, that to me, feels so Canadian.
• 1:13:39
  Glen: Why That, for some reason that feels so important to us that it
• 1:13:42
  Grant: And in that first book, Adventures in Solitude, I actually purposely did not put dates in it to try to.
• 1:13:51
  Grant: kind of create a sort of a timeless experience, um, which kind of worked and kind of didn't.
• 1:13:57
  Grant: But, uh, I now put dates in because I kind of want to keep track of where I am and what's happening with stories.
• 1:14:06
  Grant: But yeah, so, um, it's been the writing side of the writing era chapter of my life has been extremely fulfilling and occupies a lot of my time.
• 1:14:18
  Grant: Now, and that Adventures in Solitude thing, like, we just put out a kid's picture book version of it.
• 1:14:24
  Grant: Myself and illustrator Ginger and Goh just put out it this summer.
• 1:14:30
  Grant: So, I mean, it's still going.
• 1:14:32
  Grant: Like, I'm doing a book signing for it, like, next Saturday or something.
• 1:14:35
  Grant: It's still going.
• 1:14:37
  Grant: I, I can't believe the longevity of it all.
• 1:14:42
  Glen: I'm a little interested and, you know, maybe it's, there's nothing in the well to go down after here.
• 1:14:47
  Glen: But, I mean, you have always been a super authentic guy, which is, I think, what also brought you respect alongside of just the good things that you were doing in the music scene.
• 1:14:56
  Glen: And people really appreciate that.
• 1:14:59
  Glen: But.
• 1:15:00
  Glen: I know personally that there's a big difference when you're sort of have a public persona, um, of being authentic and then when you have to choose to be vulnerable.
• 1:15:11
  Glen: And I feel like writing a book and even the way you just described, you chose to write a book that was about a very personal place to you that wasn't based on all the things you've built a career on.
• 1:15:22
  Glen: So who's gonna, who's going to read this book?
• 1:15:24
  Glen: Who's going to care?
• 1:15:25
  Grant: hmm.
• 1:15:25
  Grant: I don't know.
• 1:15:27
  Glen: But it's vulnerable, and I'm wondering if it's felt vulnerable to you to move into that stage of your life of writing and how sort of that's impacted you.
• 1:15:37
  Grant: Yes and no.
• 1:15:38
  Grant: I mean, I've always leaned on being self effacing and I've always leaned on self depreciating humor.
• 1:15:46
  Grant: Like, I always try to, you know, usually make myself the butt of the joke.
• 1:15:51
  Grant: Um, you know, like Radio 3, often I'd open the show or the podcast, you know, with a story.
• 1:15:59
  Grant: of, I remember the first time we played on the, maybe the second or third podcast, I said, we played a PEI band, might've been Two Hours Traffic.
• 1:16:09
  Grant: And I said, well, the only time I've been on Prince Edward Island, I got punched in the face and you know, people, I told the story, but it wasn't about, it was like a embarrassing moment for me.
• 1:16:23
  Grant: And, and it led to a ridiculous Series of events and, uh, and, and so I've always tried to kind of be vulnerable and open myself up, be myself and make fun of myself, you know, like I've always been a kind of a scrawny guy with bad knees and bad eyes and, you know, uh, make fun of it, you know, like I remember, you know, the band I loved when I was in high school was the gruesomes and I really wanted to have like the perfect mushroom, um, kind of mop top.
• 1:17:00
  Grant: kind of, uh, Ramones, Beatles haircut.
• 1:17:04
  Grant: And I tried really hard to get that, but, uh, my hair is a bit curlier.
• 1:17:08
  Grant: And so with my glasses, what I often say is I tried to pull off Joey Ramone and Bobby Beaton.
• 1:17:15
  Grant: And what I ended up looking like was a cross between Jimi Hendrix and Woody Allen.
• 1:17:20
  Grant: In high school, just a giant Afro and giant glasses didn't really work.
• 1:17:26
  Grant: So I, I think vulnerability comes fairly naturally to me and, uh, it's worked for me.
• 1:17:34
  Grant: And I just try to, you know, be honest, be funny.
• 1:17:38
  Grant: I try to be funny in almost everything.
• 1:17:40
  Grant: I do always try to entertain.
• 1:17:43
  Grant: I just want to entertain audiences.
• 1:17:45
  Grant: You know, when my hero and dear friend, John Mann from Spirit of the West lead singer, uh, when he was wrapping up Spirit of the West, someone said to him, like, what are you, what are you going to do next?
• 1:18:01
  Grant: And he said, I don't know, just as long as it involves applause.
• 1:18:05
  Grant: And I thought that was such a.
• 1:18:08
  Grant: honest and, and beautiful quote, because so many of us in the entertainment industry, we just want to entertain and we want to make people happy.
• 1:18:16
  Grant: And we, we seek out that applause and the applause is the recognition and the acceptance of the art that you're putting forward.
• 1:18:26
  Grant: Whether the applause is a good review or whether it's a couple of book sales or, or whether it's a nice comment or whether it's literally people clapping.
• 1:18:36
  Grant: in seats with tickets that they bought to go see you.
• 1:18:40
  Grant: That's, that's all I want to do, is keep those people
• 1:18:43
  Glen: I have a friend who likes to ask people if you'd rather be rich or famous, like just that real basic thing and was surprised that I, I'll pick famous every time.
• 1:18:53
  Glen: Like, uh, I used to, like I used to sit on a lot of grant juries and awards juries.
• 1:18:59
  Glen: Like there was one year when I think I probably saw a combination of 650 applications between everything from the to the JUNOS like the Western Canadian Music Awards and Factor.
• 1:19:12
  Glen: And there were all these people that and some of them had like pretty good List of accomplishments never heard of them And I remember saying to someone like i'm not interested in anonymous success So like i'm interested in applause too.
• 1:19:27
  Glen: I think so.
• 1:19:28
  Glen: What drives us at the validation part for sure
• 1:19:32
  Grant: And then the anonymity thing, uh, can, if you play it right, um, like Orville Peck, or The Weeknd, Uh, can also lead to huge success.
• 1:19:46
  Grant: So, you know, it's, it, there's all sorts of different ways to play it.
• 1:19:49
  Grant: And it's always interesting to see who can make it work for them.
• 1:19:54
  Glen: So how how is being a dad?
• 1:19:56
  Glen: You impacted like where you're at now with the writing.
• 1:20:01
  Glen: I know you've produced children's books and there's obvious influences in just opening a perspective there, but
• 1:20:08
  Grant: Well, it's funny you should ask because, um, a note just pinged up on my screen saying you got to pick up the kids in
• 1:20:15
  Glen: well, there we go.
• 1:20:16
  Grant: So, yeah, so, uh, that's how it impacts me.
• 1:20:19
  Grant: It, it limits my time to do stuff, uh, of my own nature like this.
• 1:20:25
  Grant: Um, but no, I mean, the, the kids are amazing.
• 1:20:28
  Grant: I love.
• 1:20:30
  Grant: Uh, you know, already my son, as you saw with the music, he's way ahead of where I was.
• 1:20:37
  Grant: He's way ahead of me on hockey.
• 1:20:40
  Grant: Um, he's a great little right winger.
• 1:20:43
  Grant: He, uh, you know, took a while to get going on his offense, but now he's scoring goals.
• 1:20:49
  Glen: a hockey dad and a band dad.
• 1:20:51
  Grant: A hockey dad and a band, band dad.
• 1:20:54
  Grant: My daughter is in Embers, which is the new Brownies.
• 1:20:58
  Grant: They've, uh, they didn't, that name got
• 1:21:01
  Glen: Yeah, my girl did all that as well.
• 1:21:02
  Glen: Yeah.
• 1:21:03
  Grant: Yeah.
• 1:21:03
  Grant: And you know, and she's in circus and gymnastics and hip hop dance and all that and, and they're both great artists and, and we are, um, are, primarily during the week, a screen free family.
• 1:21:20
  Grant: So the kids, we don't even, neither myself or Jill played video games when we were growing up.
• 1:21:26
  Grant: So there's no video games around our house at all.
• 1:21:30
  Grant: And so we, we, what's weird is that my kids are growing up with less screens in their lives in a screen generation than Me and my wife Jill had when we were growing up because we of course had the television and we had you know, I had get home after school and it would be like You know all the reruns right like three's company love boat brady bunch mash like all the way to dinner time And my kids don't do that.
• 1:22:01
  Grant: My kids do other things they do art and and it's weird like i'm like Jill we're like Amish over here like um, this this kind of
• 1:22:09
  Glen: But that'll be pretty interesting to see what that produces.
• 1:22:12
  Glen: I think that's
• 1:22:13
  Grant: Yeah, I mean, it could hopefully, I mean, they're 11 and 8, so hopefully they don't rebel like crazy hard and become super gamers when they're teenagers.
• 1:22:22
  Grant: But, um, yeah, so we've just never been into the video game thing.
• 1:22:27
  Grant: It has basically ostracized my son in certain ways because what we've realized is, um, A huge part of kid vocabulary, uh, Is is involves video games and tick tock and,
• 1:22:45
  Glen: The
• 1:22:46
  Grant: all that.
• 1:22:46
  Grant: And so he,
• 1:22:47
  Glen: on the lingo.
• 1:22:48
  Glen: So.
• 1:22:49
  Grant: so he doesn't know the lingo.
• 1:22:50
  Glen: Yeah.
• 1:22:51
  Grant: And he picks it up and he's like, what does that mean?
• 1:22:53
  Grant: And he's telling me, dad, what does Sigma mean?
• 1:22:55
  Grant: I'm like, I don't know.
• 1:22:57
  Grant: And, and, you know, and so I feel guilty in that regard, but my wife is always like, no, no, no, it'll be fine.
• 1:23:04
  Grant: And other parents who's of the similar age, whose kids are like addicted to video games or screens are always like, if, if, if,
• 1:23:12
  Glen: Yeah, they'll be fine.
• 1:23:13
  Grant: if, Yeah, don't, don't introduce it.
• 1:23:16
  Grant: Because it's hard to get the toothpaste back in the tube, you know, once a kid is like addicted to Fortnite or whatever.
• 1:23:24
  Glen: Yeah, they'll move into a social, more social era of their life and, and whatever comes with it will come with it.
• 1:23:30
  Glen: So,
• 1:23:31
  Grant: Yeah.
• 1:23:31
  Grant: And I, yeah.
• 1:23:32
  Grant: And I always tell Josh, you're going to find your, you're going to find your people.
• 1:23:37
  Grant: And, and he, he has, but, um, but I'm like, you, you put it out there, you know, he, you know, he's very shy and somewhat embarrassed that he doesn't play video games, but I'm like, there are other kids.
• 1:23:50
  Grant: And if you say it, Like, I actually, I don't play video games, so I don't really get that reference.
• 1:23:57
  Grant: There will be a kid in that group that will say afterwards, Hey, I don't, I don't play video games either.
• 1:24:02
  Grant: And then there's
• 1:24:03
  Glen: your people.
• 1:24:04
  Grant: you know, I mean, that's what alternative culture is all about.
• 1:24:07
  Grant: That's what like everything on this wall behind me is about, you know, is, is stepping out of the mainstream and going your own way and finding your own people.
• 1:24:17
  Glen: Yeah, well, that's beautiful.
• 1:24:19
  Glen: That's a great note to end on.
• 1:24:21
  Glen: You have places to go and, um, anyhow, let me, let me just look around by saying just how much I appreciate you taking the time to kind of pull, pull the veil back on a couple of these things.
• 1:24:33
  Glen: I think the way that your life kind of blended from one thing to the next is the part of your story that I think really matters to people who.
• 1:24:45
  Glen: You know, aren't sure of how to change lanes themselves and to see all the great things that have happened is just really cool.
• 1:24:54
  Glen: And I guess I would be remiss to ever say, because I never know when I'm going to bump into or see you again, that I always feel like I want to thank you for giving, like me, your attention and giving us your attention in a time when that was the highest currency.
• 1:25:12
  Glen: that I
• 1:25:13
  Grant: Oh, well, you know, but you're, you're, you're, you put out the art, you put the art out into the world.
• 1:25:19
  Grant: So, you know, it's my job to promote
• 1:25:21
  Glen: Well, that's the thing about what this is.
• 1:25:23
  Glen: It's, it's when everybody looks at it the same way about how we're working together on that, it can be really beautiful.
• 1:25:30
  Glen: So, uh, I appreciate
• 1:25:32
  Grant: what, what, I mean, I mean, I know, I know we're wrapping up, but one of the things that, that people forget, um, is that the media, it's a machine that needs to be fed.
• 1:25:43
  Grant: Yeah.
• 1:25:43
  Glen: yeah,
• 1:25:44
  Grant: And the, what we feed on is stories and in particular the entertainment side of media, we feed on new music and stories that we need your art.
• 1:25:56
  Grant: We need the new music.
• 1:25:57
  Grant: We need it.
• 1:25:58
  Grant: That is what we, that's, you know, we got to shovel the coal into the mouth of the furnace to keep everything going.
• 1:26:04
  Grant: And so sometimes people forget that it's like, I'm looking for music to new music to play every single week,
• 1:26:11
  Glen: Okay.
• 1:26:11
  Glen: Before we go, What's one new thing that you've discovered?
• 1:26:15
  Glen: What, like, what's the latest thing that you're like, Oh, people should hear this.
• 1:26:18
  Glen: Like,
• 1:26:19
  Grant: Cat Clyde.
• 1:26:21
  Grant: I love an artist named Cat Clyde.
• 1:26:25
  Glen: Okay.
• 1:26:26
  Grant: Cat Clyde is a performer from Stratford, Ontario, and she plays this super cool kind of roots country rockabilly, but it's, it sounds modern and it sounds throwback at the same time.
• 1:26:43
  Grant: She is one of the coolest musicians that I have discovered recently, and I think everyone should know and check out Cat Clyde.
• 1:26:54
  Grant: CC.
• 1:26:56
  Glen: Okay.
• 1:26:56
  Glen: I'm going to do it.
• 1:26:57
  Glen: Uh, what I love is that you, you're forever going to be my DJ and my curator Grant
• 1:27:03
  Grant: Well, thanks, Glen.
• 1:27:05
  Grant: been a, a, this has been a great, great conversation.
• 1:27:08
  Grant: I really appreciate you taking through, taking me through all these different stages of my life and, uh, stirring up all these memories and emotions.
• 1:27:17
  Grant: So, uh, it's, it's much appreciated.
• 1:27:19
  Grant: The last thing I'll tell you about are these glasses.
• 1:27:21
  Grant: They're also, um, they're the front here.
• 1:27:24
  Grant: This is a mate called Vinylize.
• 1:27:26
  Grant: Vinylize.
• 1:27:27
  Grant: And this is, uh, ACDC record.
• 1:27:30
  Glen: really?
• 1:27:31
  Glen: Oh, that's
• 1:27:31
  Grant: that's on there.
• 1:27:33
  Grant: You can see the
• 1:27:34
  Glen: Oh, I love it.
• 1:27:34
  Grant: the, there's the guitar fags on the side.
• 1:27:37
  Grant: But anyway, yeah.
• 1:27:39
  Grant: So, music, music, music.
• 1:27:40
  Grant: Rock on.
• 1:27:41
  Grant: Thanks for everything.
• 1:27:43
  Grant: And I'll go, uh, coach some baseball now.
• 1:27:50
  Glen Erickson: Hi, how are you doing?
• 1:27:53
  Glen Erickson: Um,
• 1:27:54
  alexi: How are you?
• 1:27:55
  Glen Erickson: I'm fine.
• 1:27:55
  Glen Erickson: Welcome to.
• 1:27:57
  Glen Erickson: Uh, episode two Grant Lawrence, and this is post fame, um, with you, my daughter, Alexi joining me to talk about the episode.
• 1:28:09
  Glen Erickson: So,
• 1:28:10
  alexi: Yes.
• 1:28:11
  Glen Erickson: before we get into the episode with Grant Lawrence, lots of new things going on.
• 1:28:18
  Glen Erickson: Um, when we recorded the first post fame, it was 2024
• 1:28:23
  alexi: True.
• 1:28:24
  Glen Erickson: and we decided to leave everything on the computer until 2025 and just start now.
• 1:28:31
  Glen Erickson: So we're into 2025.
• 1:28:34
  Glen Erickson: Um, what has been the most interesting new thing about 2025 for you?
• 1:28:44
  alexi: How many weeks in are we?
• 1:28:45
  alexi: Two.
• 1:28:46
  alexi: Two in a day.
• 1:28:47
  Glen Erickson: Two and a day.
• 1:28:49
  Glen Erickson: Yep.
• 1:28:49
  alexi: in a day.
• 1:28:50
  alexi: Um, a new semester is pretty exciting, but That's just such a boring answer.
• 1:28:57
  alexi: So I'll say starting going to the gym with you, that's a bit
• 1:29:00
  Glen Erickson: Oh, that's a great answer.
• 1:29:04
  Glen Erickson: That's an absolutely great answer.
• 1:29:05
  Glen Erickson: So we
• 1:29:06
  alexi: you
• 1:29:07
  Glen Erickson: decided to, yeah, it's a little on the nose, a little cliche to start on January, like it's a resolution, but Um It's a, it actually wasn't a resolution at all for us.
• 1:29:19
  Glen Erickson: It was, um, really an act of convenience and necessity.
• 1:29:24
  Glen Erickson: One is I'd been far too sedentary for a number of months and you kids.
• 1:29:31
  Glen Erickson: were concerned about your parents getting old.
• 1:29:34
  Glen Erickson: I don't know.
• 1:29:35
  Glen Erickson: But, um, and your schedule changed and
• 1:29:38
  alexi: Week two.
• 1:29:39
  Glen Erickson: demand for vehicles.
• 1:29:40
  Glen Erickson: So I think it's working well.
• 1:29:42
  Glen Erickson: We've had, this is, we're on week two of going the, um, the three days a week.
• 1:29:48
  Glen Erickson: First thing in the morning.
• 1:29:49
  Glen Erickson: So
• 1:29:50
  alexi: Just did number five together.
• 1:29:52
  Glen Erickson: yeah,
• 1:29:53
  alexi: Yeah,
• 1:29:54
  Glen Erickson: I think it's going fine so far.
• 1:29:57
  alexi: it's going good.
• 1:29:59
  alexi: Other than
• 1:29:59
  Glen Erickson: That's a great,
• 1:30:00
  alexi: fact that it's messed up my Spotify rotation because the
• 1:30:04
  Glen Erickson: you're playing workout mixes all the time.
• 1:30:06
  Glen Erickson: You change your, uh,
• 1:30:08
  alexi: my curation.
• 1:30:10
  alexi: and Grant Lawrence talk a lot about curation and DJ.
• 1:30:13
  alexi: My Spotify algorithm is terrible now.
• 1:30:15
  alexi: I need a new DJ.
• 1:30:17
  Glen Erickson: Oh, no.
• 1:30:20
  Glen Erickson: Oh, well, I'm listening to the same podcast mostly every morning while I'm working out.
• 1:30:25
  Glen Erickson: So,
• 1:30:26
  alexi: Really?
• 1:30:27
  Glen Erickson: yeah, so nothing's really changed for me.
• 1:30:29
  Glen Erickson: I wondered if it would change because I had built a playlist.
• 1:30:32
  Glen Erickson: I called muscle makers like over a year ago, uh, from basement workouts and it's got some real bangers in there.
• 1:30:39
  Glen Erickson: In fact, I should put a couple of songs on our playlist.
• 1:30:44
  Glen Erickson: On our podcast playlist from,
• 1:30:46
  alexi: Yes.
• 1:30:47
  Glen Erickson: from muscle makers at the bangers.
• 1:30:48
  Glen Erickson: But, um, like the one I discovered the other day was ageless beauty by stars.
• 1:30:54
  Glen Erickson: I think I played that for you in the car.
• 1:30:56
  alexi: In the
• 1:30:56
  Glen Erickson: Um, and I was like, why isn't this on my muscle maker?
• 1:30:59
  Glen Erickson: That's a banger of a song.
• 1:31:00
  alexi: Mm.
• 1:31:01
  Glen Erickson: ironically, it's from the era that Grant Lawrence kept talking a lot about.
• 1:31:05
  Glen Erickson: But before we get into Grant Lawrence, one more thing I was going to chat with you about, which was, I had a question for you because I came down here and this is 2025 so it's post Christmas
• 1:31:15
  alexi: Yes.
• 1:31:16
  Glen Erickson: mean, I meant to ask you this before what your thoughts were, but I might as well do it like live on the podcast.
• 1:31:21
  Glen Erickson: But so.
• 1:31:22
  Glen Erickson: My kind of my, one of my star gifts of the year was, um, from your auntie, auntie Nan, who,
• 1:31:30
  alexi: Nancy?
• 1:31:31
  Glen Erickson: uh, and this is a, I know there's people who are listening, not watching, but a Funko doll.
• 1:31:37
  Glen Erickson: Is that just what it's called?
• 1:31:38
  Glen Erickson: A Funko?
• 1:31:39
  alexi: Yeah, like the little plastic figurine, even.
• 1:31:42
  Glen Erickson: Yeah, I like these collectibles, right?
• 1:31:44
  Glen Erickson: And they have these giant dolls and I've seen people who have these in the typical collectible world.
• 1:31:51
  Glen Erickson: They never leave the packaging.
• 1:31:52
  Glen Erickson: So they catch with this one, which makes it such an amazing gift for everyone to know is, um, my sister in law customized it for me.
• 1:31:59
  Glen Erickson: It's called Glenroy.
• 1:32:01
  Glen Erickson: It looks like me.
• 1:32:03
  Glen Erickson: He's holding Guitar and wearing a black tuque and black shirt and all.
• 1:32:07
  Glen Erickson: Anyhow, so it's fantastic, this Funko doll.
• 1:32:09
  Glen Erickson: But I know it's in the world of collectibles, which means these amazing dolls never come out of the package.
• 1:32:17
  Glen Erickson: And people just have these giant shelves with their Funko dolls.
• 1:32:21
  Glen Erickson: But this, do I take it out of the packaging?
• 1:32:24
  Glen Erickson: Like, it's not given to me as a collectible.
• 1:32:27
  Glen Erickson: It's a personal customized one.
• 1:32:31
  Glen Erickson: And I, and I can't decide what I should do.
• 1:32:34
  alexi: I think it would be so cute just like,
• 1:32:36
  Glen Erickson: If I took a note.
• 1:32:37
  alexi: desk or just, even, I mean, how it is right now on your
• 1:32:40
  Glen Erickson: Yeah, I don't mind it in the box.
• 1:32:42
  Glen Erickson: I don't know.
• 1:32:43
  alexi: And it says your name, but you could always just rotate it.
• 1:32:46
  alexi: I mean, you're not checking
• 1:32:47
  Glen Erickson: That is the thing.
• 1:32:48
  alexi: soon.
• 1:32:49
  Glen Erickson: That is the thing.
• 1:32:50
  Glen Erickson: I don't know if those things even exist outside of the box.
• 1:32:53
  Glen Erickson: Maybe they cease to be anything if they come out of the box.
• 1:32:57
  Glen Erickson: But anyhow, that's the thing I was wrestling with.
• 1:32:59
  Glen Erickson: And then I came in here tonight and I looked at it again.
• 1:33:01
  Glen Erickson: So I thought I'm going to ask you.
• 1:33:03
  Glen Erickson: Um, okay, well, let's talk about the Grant Lawrence episode, uh, which was a lot of fun for me to do.
• 1:33:10
  Glen Erickson: Um, I don't know.
• 1:33:12
  Glen Erickson: You can tell me what your observations were, but I, I just have a lot of respect for Grant.
• 1:33:17
  Glen Erickson: He was a big part of sort of a very big phase of my own life in this, in the music business and it was fun to talk about it.
• 1:33:27
  Glen Erickson: I thought he, when I, when I've been editing and going back, he really, Became a historian for a large chunk of, of that time,
• 1:33:38
  alexi: hmm.
• 1:33:38
  Glen Erickson: um, going through really what was happening in the Canadian music scene.
• 1:33:42
  Glen Erickson: I thought that was pretty cool, but he was name dropping pretty fast for
• 1:33:46
  alexi: Yeah.
• 1:33:46
  Glen Erickson: an era that was partially before you were even born.
• 1:33:50
  Glen Erickson: So I'm just wondering what your thoughts were.
• 1:33:54
  alexi: Well, it's like I was saying to you earlier today when we were chatting.
• 1:33:57
  alexi: It's like, you know, I, I heard his name.
• 1:34:00
  alexi: He dropped quite a bit just when I was with like you or with you around, like kind of the music world, like even just growing up.
• 1:34:08
  alexi: and like, just from that, I knew he was kind of like a deal in that scene and in that world.
• 1:34:14
  alexi: but yeah, you guys were chatting away and like my little 19 year old brain was having some hard time catching up a little bit at points, just cause I didn't know some of the names and the programs and, you know, he, he talks about CBC radio and like CBC music.
• 1:34:30
  alexi: Those things and those have just never been like prevalent in my world because they aren't really just like a thing for I won't say like my like this time because I don't know but for people my age and like my world not really a thing I know what it is
• 1:34:48
  Glen Erickson: Well, I think two things.
• 1:34:50
  Glen Erickson: Do you think this, do you think it is partially because your generation doesn't rely on radio to curate your music for you is a big part of it.
• 1:35:00
  alexi: percent
• 1:35:01
  Glen Erickson: And so that role that CBC played in particularly the kind of unique thing that they were doing doesn't exist anymore.
• 1:35:09
  Glen Erickson: So that's got to be for sure part of that.
• 1:35:12
  Glen Erickson: But I think also, um, I think that one of the things that just doesn't feel, I'm guessing here, you can tell me what you think, but I'm guessing what doesn't feel also relevant when you say that's kind of not even on our radar anymore is, is that CBC itself isn't really taking a role in pushing or curating.
• 1:35:36
  Glen Erickson: Uh, I should say the indie music, they still have CBC music and they do a lot of really cool different things.
• 1:35:42
  Glen Erickson: Um, but it's definitely not the same version of, of them sort of helping essentially grow a very, not just a scene, almost like a set of genres or sub genres that could, But there is a, there is a great show on CBC called Q and it's not just music.
• 1:36:05
  Glen Erickson: The host, Tom Power, he's a fantastic at his job and great at interviewing.
• 1:36:10
  Glen Erickson: And I go and listen to the podcast samples about 20, 25 minutes long when he has artists on.
• 1:36:16
  Glen Erickson: So, um, so that's pretty cool on that show, but things have definitely changed.
• 1:36:21
  Glen Erickson: So,
• 1:36:22
  alexi: Yeah, I mean, I mean, at the same time, you guys were chatting about it, and, um, there was just a lot that, like, you know, one of you would be telling a story or describing, And then, you know, you guys kind of, like, could jump in back and forth and be like, Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, this guy.
• 1:36:36
  alexi: Oh, yeah, this is his name.
• 1:36:37
  alexi: Oh, yeah.
• 1:36:38
  alexi: And just, like, also listening to that conversation, I was like, wow, like, you could, it's really evident big that community was.
• 1:36:47
  alexi: And not in, like, size, but just, like, if you were in that scene, just, like,
• 1:36:52
  Glen Erickson: yeah.
• 1:36:52
  alexi: community meant.
• 1:36:54
  alexi: And it's, like, you know, the curation part, like, would be really interesting to have and it's like definitely like because of radio and However, you want to describe it like that's not really a thing anymore, especially for my generation And you know, it's never been something where i'm like, wow, I wish I had, you know cbc radio I wish I had the radio to listen to when I have like The convenience of like Spotify, for example, but then you guys like this like whole community you're talking about and like referring to
• 1:37:23
  Glen Erickson: Yeah.
• 1:37:24
  alexi: like people and like how there was like weddings and parties and barbecues and like it just like brought people together.
• 1:37:31
  alexi: And I was like, Oh, like that would be cool.
• 1:37:33
  alexi: And like, I think that's lost on my generation for sure.
• 1:37:37
  Glen Erickson: Yeah, one of my favorite moments when he was talking and he used that metaphor of the dolphins holding the sick ones up and then he got choked up because he really believed that that's what that community, it was a pure version of sort of online community, which maybe doesn't exist.
• 1:37:53
  Glen Erickson: And I thought that was, Pretty cool and great.
• 1:37:56
  Glen Erickson: I do think you miss out on curation.
• 1:37:58
  Glen Erickson: I think what's interesting about Spotify is, I mean, you started just casually joking about the algorithm has changed because of your workout schedule.
• 1:38:08
  Glen Erickson: And really it feels like most of us are treating the algorithm like our.
• 1:38:13
  Glen Erickson: Curator, right?
• 1:38:14
  Glen Erickson: Like,
• 1:38:14
  alexi: Yeah.
• 1:38:15
  Glen Erickson: um, I mean, and you know, the truth is, we all know like Spotify has playlists and, you know, most of us though only see the ones that, you know, they technically are using AI or whatever automations all from, you know, Your existing lists to create either genre specific or mood specific or whatever.
• 1:38:37
  Glen Erickson: They are playlists for us, right?
• 1:38:39
  Glen Erickson: But they have their own playlists.
• 1:38:42
  Glen Erickson: And yeah, it's a, it's a challenging thing.
• 1:38:45
  Glen Erickson: Like, so on the, on the music business side of it, if I'm an artist right now, right?
• 1:38:51
  Glen Erickson: Like.
• 1:38:51
  Glen Erickson: It makes all the difference to get on to some of the larger playlists.
• 1:38:56
  Glen Erickson: So the playlists that have massive amounts of subscribers, most of them are primarily by employees of Spotify.
• 1:39:05
  Glen Erickson: Whose job is it to put these things together?
• 1:39:07
  Glen Erickson: Right.
• 1:39:08
  Glen Erickson: And,
• 1:39:08
  alexi: Yeah.
• 1:39:08
  Glen Erickson: so getting on it has become a whole new.
• 1:39:13
  Glen Erickson: A whole new game to play.
• 1:39:15
  Glen Erickson: So back when it was Grant Lawrence and I, I made that joke near the beginning, I think of our conversation, how Dan and I were scrambling for his attention.
• 1:39:24
  Glen Erickson: Like that was a massive focus at that stage of our careers, right?
• 1:39:29
  Glen Erickson: And, uh, Dan Mangan is who I'm referencing So he was our attention because he curated the music and if we got on the thing, it was pretty, pretty huge.
• 1:39:40
  Glen Erickson: So, um, in the same way, I know, I know a lot of artists now, like a lot of, from that time I spent doing the development work with the country artists in the province, they, I see their posts now and, you know, and so if they get added to a list, they'll be very quick to share.
• 1:39:59
  alexi: and they're
• 1:39:59
  Glen Erickson: And if they, if they land the cover, like if they're publicists and that's, and again, that's.
• 1:40:05
  Glen Erickson: It's all part of the machine, right?
• 1:40:07
  Glen Erickson: Like you need maybe a good manager, a publicist who has got the right connections and trying to hound people to
• 1:40:14
  alexi: Yeah.
• 1:40:15
  Glen Erickson: get you that placement.
• 1:40:16
  Glen Erickson: Cause it does such a big thing for your career.
• 1:40:18
  Glen Erickson: So it's definitely changed, but it exists kind of the same way, but in a different way.
• 1:40:24
  alexi: I mean, definitely more machine driven now.
• 1:40:27
  alexi: Mm
• 1:40:28
  Glen Erickson: yeah.
• 1:40:29
  Glen Erickson: Did anything else?
• 1:40:30
  Glen Erickson: Stick out to you other than the curation part or other parts you understand Perhaps in your 19 year old brain and want to work out
• 1:40:41
  alexi: No, I mean, I, I understood Um, maybe I phrased that poorly, but I think the other thing that, like, really stuck out was, kind of less to do with music, but more just like when he was talking about the fact that his family and his kids don't have electronics and the fact that his son already has a band.
• 1:41:02
  alexi: I was like, I was honestly, I was living for that when I was listening, like, especially being in education.
• 1:41:08
  alexi: And I was like, yes, like someone's kids.
• 1:41:11
  alexi: Cause my generation really, it's like, we're kind of like one of the first to go through.
• 1:41:16
  alexi: Childhood and development with screens all the time in our faces, and then, you know, the generation, like, just above mine is starting to have kids now, and we're like seeing those effects, and even just being a waitress.
• 1:41:30
  alexi: I see the effects of children behavior all the time, but
• 1:41:34
  Glen Erickson: Oh, yeah,
• 1:41:34
  alexi: you know, I think it's just so interesting, um, creative his kids sound.
• 1:41:40
  alexi: And especially seeing his son, like, having a band in Eleven, having Grant Lawrence be your dad and be able to, like, help you put that together and have shows.
• 1:41:52
  alexi: I think that's just, that was the loveliest thing ever.
• 1:41:55
  Glen Erickson: yeah, I mean he didn't really Talk about it much, but I mean he's married to jill barber so jill barber is uh
• 1:42:03
  alexi: Also
• 1:42:03
  Glen Erickson: name as a singer.
• 1:42:06
  Glen Erickson: She's had some, uh, like award winning Juno type level, uh, jazz albums as well as, uh, and so she is a well known name around the country and incredible artist on her own.
• 1:42:20
  Glen Erickson: So you just know, That, you know, there's this sort of presence of that in the, in the household, I, but yeah, the thing with his son and the band, it made me think, you know, like, where's, where's the real version of the new punk rockers going to come from in our, in the new generation, right?
• 1:42:40
  Glen Erickson: If you need, because a lot of that kind of stuff comes from people that were trying to like, either break free of something or they were just kind of raised counterculture.
• 1:42:55
  Glen Erickson: And being raised without screens is as counterculture as it can possibly get at this moment in history, right?
• 1:43:01
  Glen Erickson: So, so I guess just what really shocked me is like, I wasn't surprised that his kids Wanting to play music
• 1:43:11
  alexi: No.
• 1:43:12
  Glen Erickson: the, you know, nature, nurture, whatever the environment is
• 1:43:16
  alexi: For
• 1:43:16
  Glen Erickson: pretty ripe for it.
• 1:43:17
  Glen Erickson: If, if the seeds are already there, but the age though, like 11 years old.
• 1:43:22
  Glen Erickson: And,
• 1:43:23
  alexi: years old.
• 1:43:23
  Glen Erickson: and I went to his socials and he had posted like a little bit about this.
• 1:43:28
  Glen Erickson: Gig that they were prepping for and showed these like 11 year old boys and stuff in a circle in a living room practicing.
• 1:43:36
  Glen Erickson: And I was just like, this is amazing.
• 1:43:38
  Glen Erickson: Like that's really young.
• 1:43:40
  Glen Erickson: Like at 11 years old, well, I don't even know what I was doing.
• 1:43:45
  Glen Erickson: And I think I was like trying to jump the furthest off a swing to impress girls when I was 11 years old,
• 1:43:52
  alexi: hmm.
• 1:43:52
  Glen Erickson: that that didn't pay off very well in my life.
• 1:43:56
  Glen Erickson: Playing in a band at 11, that's pretty great.
• 1:43:59
  Glen Erickson: So, I'm impressed.
• 1:44:02
  alexi: I thought so
• 1:44:03
  Glen Erickson: That's a great observation, actually.
• 1:44:06
  Glen Erickson: I think one of the great things about Grant that I appreciated in the interview, and a big part of, behind why talking and finding these stories and these conversations is important, uh, or at least the light, the spotlight that I want to start to shed more is All the different paths that you take over the long haul, that it's not a short game, it's a long game, and we usually think that we're in a certain lane in our life, and then things change, and then you end up in another lane, but there's still a big piece of the last lane in you, and to end up now where he's at, you know, uh, you know, at around 50, being primarily a hockey and a band dad and an author, you know,
• 1:44:55
  alexi: was gonna say
• 1:44:57
  Glen Erickson: but still connected to his music stuff and his roots that come in handy that now he's teaching his kid how to help book shows and he has to book his own book tours and then he brings his old musician friends along for these sort of evenings of music and story
• 1:45:16
  alexi: Mm hmm.
• 1:45:17
  Glen Erickson: and that goes back to the early days in his 20s when you have to kind of hustle again and it's kind of full circle and I think that's that was really Something I've reflected on afterwards that I thought was pretty great.
• 1:45:31
  alexi: And what a beautiful spot to be in, that he can be doing all that, like, I feel like every 10, 20 minutes in that podcast, it was like, oh, and you're doing this.
• 1:45:41
  alexi: Oh, yeah.
• 1:45:41
  alexi: And you did this.
• 1:45:42
  alexi: Oh, yeah.
• 1:45:43
  alexi: Like it.
• 1:45:44
  alexi: He has done a lot.
• 1:45:45
  alexi: He knows a lot.
• 1:45:46
  alexi: I think.
• 1:45:47
  alexi: Yeah, definitely a good source of knowledge for that.
• 1:45:51
  Glen Erickson: And he cares a lot, which is maybe what that, maybe that was really what's underneath why his ability to accomplish and do all those things is because he didn't half ass anything.
• 1:46:04
  Glen Erickson: I think it just reminds me that the people who really just.
• 1:46:09
  Glen Erickson: give themselves 100 percent to a thing tend to be able to do the thing and they get the thing back.
• 1:46:16
  Glen Erickson: So, um, playing it safe doesn't create the opportunities of a life like that, you know?
• 1:46:24
  Glen Erickson: So he's a great example.
• 1:46:26
  Glen Erickson: Yeah, I like it.
• 1:46:29
  Glen Erickson: Good stuff.
• 1:46:31
  alexi: Very good stuff.
• 1:46:34
  Glen Erickson: Okay.
• 1:46:34
  Glen Erickson: Well, thank you.
• 1:46:36
  Glen Erickson: Uh, thank you for this.
• 1:46:37
  Glen Erickson: Um, Is there any, I was going to ask you if there's any new songs I should be aware of or I'm missing and there was one that you've played a couple of times, darn it, and I'm using my phone as a camera so I can't go and look it up because I've been trying to go and find it.
• 1:46:58
  Glen Erickson: Oh no, I did find it.
• 1:46:59
  Glen Erickson: Is it the one I asked you about?
• 1:47:01
  Glen Erickson: Is it the Joe P song?
• 1:47:04
  Glen Erickson: I asked you the other day and you were like,
• 1:47:06
  alexi: that's Joe P when I'm listening to him so much right now.
• 1:47:09
  Glen Erickson: I know, but I need to know which song it was.
• 1:47:13
  Glen Erickson: Yeah.
• 1:47:13
  Glen Erickson: Darn it.
• 1:47:15
  Glen Erickson: Okay.
• 1:47:15
  Glen Erickson: I can't remember.
• 1:47:16
  Glen Erickson: Uh, I can't think of a single prompt to help you narrow down
• 1:47:20
  alexi: I was gonna say I can
• 1:47:21
  Glen Erickson: which Joe P song it was.
• 1:47:25
  alexi: here, I'm
• 1:47:26
  Glen Erickson: But I,
• 1:47:26
  alexi: out,
• 1:47:27
  Glen Erickson: but I specifically asked you and I'm like, is this, there's no judgment for you pulling your phone out right now.
• 1:47:34
  Glen Erickson: What do you mean?
• 1:47:34
  alexi: Screenager.
• 1:47:37
  Glen Erickson: I'm literally asking a question.
• 1:47:39
  Glen Erickson: It's like,
• 1:47:41
  alexi: Um, I think you're wrong.
• 1:47:46
  alexi: I don't think you Oh, um,
• 1:47:50
  Glen Erickson: I swear it would
• 1:47:51
  alexi: I think it's Don't Wanna Love You by Joe P.
• 1:47:55
  alexi: Cause that one doesn't sound like him, and I think this was our conversation the other day.
• 1:48:01
  Glen Erickson: Okay.
• 1:48:01
  Glen Erickson: Say the name again.
• 1:48:02
  alexi: you said, wanna love you by Joe
• 1:48:05
  Glen Erickson: Don't want to look.
• 1:48:06
  alexi: being said, I could be wrong right now.
• 1:48:08
  Glen Erickson: Okay.
• 1:48:08
  Glen Erickson: Well, I'm going to have to go look it up after this.
• 1:48:10
  Glen Erickson: So if it is,
• 1:48:12
  alexi: If it is.
• 1:48:13
  Glen Erickson: I'm going to put it on our playlist.
• 1:48:17
  Glen Erickson: And the link to our Spotify playlist for Almost Famous Enough is going to be in the show notes and liner notes, uh, everywhere.
• 1:48:27
  Glen Erickson: Plus on our social, I'm going to build like a little link tree thing for our social, um, And get that everywhere so that it'll be on the website thing too.
• 1:48:38
  Glen Erickson: So people can find the Almost Famous Enough playlist and we'll keep drawing it with music of people who visit us and guests and, uh, and bands that we talk about or drop or
• 1:48:53
  alexi: I was
• 1:48:53
  Glen Erickson: things.
• 1:48:53
  alexi: our fun mentions.
• 1:48:55
  Glen Erickson: Yeah.
• 1:48:55
  Glen Erickson: Everything that we get to share, it'll be fun to just keep pumping that playlist full.
• 1:49:00
  alexi: Perfect.
• 1:49:01
  Glen Erickson: Yeah.
• 1:49:02
  Glen Erickson: And I don't know what we do with a playlist like that.
• 1:49:04
  Glen Erickson: Do you take people out eventually?
• 1:49:06
  Glen Erickson: So it doesn't become like terribly huge or you wait until somebody gets canceled and then they get pulled off the list.
• 1:49:12
  alexi: I was going to say, wait until they mess up.
• 1:49:15
  alexi: I feel like it's so rude.
• 1:49:16
  alexi: I feel like if they've been on a podcast, you can't take them out.
• 1:49:19
  alexi: And that's like
• 1:49:20
  Glen Erickson: I don't know how this works.
• 1:49:21
  Glen Erickson: Yeah.
• 1:49:21
  Glen Erickson: Well, not the artists.
• 1:49:22
  Glen Erickson: No, just the mentions.
• 1:49:23
  Glen Erickson: I don't know.
• 1:49:23
  Glen Erickson: We'll see.
• 1:49:24
  alexi: mentions.
• 1:49:25
  Glen Erickson: Okay.
• 1:49:26
  alexi: what the
• 1:49:26
  Glen Erickson: Either way.
• 1:49:27
  alexi: is.
• 1:49:27
  Glen Erickson: Exactly.
• 1:49:28
  Glen Erickson: That's the point.
• 1:49:29
  Glen Erickson: That's the point.
• 1:49:30
  Glen Erickson: Okay.
• 1:49:31
  Glen Erickson: This has been fun.
• 1:49:33
  Glen Erickson: Thank you.
• 1:49:34
  alexi: Yes.
• 1:49:34
  alexi: Thank you for the ring light.
• 1:49:36
  alexi: I feel so much better
• 1:49:37
  Glen Erickson: Yeah, you're welcome.
• 1:49:38
  Glen Erickson: Mine's feeling good too.
• 1:49:39
  Glen Erickson: Okay.
• 1:49:40
  alexi: Love it.
• 1:49:41
  Glen Erickson: Thank you.
• 1:49:41
  Glen Erickson: Love you.
• 1:49:42
  Glen Erickson: Bye bye.
• 1:49:42
  alexi: Love you.
• 1:49:43
  alexi: Bye.