Latest / Sword&Spade / Don’t Let Homeschooling Emasculate Your Son w/ Adam Taylor, Thomas Fickley & Patrick Faus
Transcript
- Jason M. Craig (00:33.196) Welcome, friends, subscribers, members of Fraternus, subscribers to Sword and Spade magazine. my name is Jason Craig. I'm the executive director of Fraternis. I am recording on location at the Kingfisher Folkfest, where the only reason I would miss my daughter and my son being on stage with a fiddle and a bass is to talk to these guys, and I pray that they forgive me later. But Thank God for recordings, because I'll get to see it later. today I have with me Adam Taylor, Dean of Magistry at St. Martin's Academy, educator, former Marine, maker of men, Thomas Fickley. He's the founder and headmaster of St. Dunstan's Academy. He has personally helped me and my sons cut down a tree and he gave us thorough instruction on how to do it well. And we laughed because it was too thorough, but then we did it without him the other day and we did it wrong. So and that's after years of experience. and we're we're dedicated to not making fun of Thomas for being an Anglican. And Patrick Faust is an educational consultant, an author with the children's tradition. And our and and and among other things. But we have so many guests today, I wanna go ahead and jump in. Our our our topic has the possibility of even as a YouTube video being what they call the hot take, it's what the kids call a hot take, which is how to make sure your home school does not emasculate your son. The men we have here, I can tell you, they are they are makers of men. They're they're well learned. I'm particularly excited though having Patrick on here is great because he is with his wife consulting and helping homeschool families. Jason M. Craig (03:00.773) so he knows what this looks like, especially from a mother's perspective, and thinking about it from that perspective, because we need to face the fact that most homeschools are run by mom. As much as dad likes to say he's the principal, he's usually just supplies the capital. Adam and Thomas, though, I would suspect have had already plenty of run-ins of what it means to try to educate a homeschool boy. and that's that almost sounds like a an insult, homeschool boy, into into good men. so maybe I would just open this, Adam. the I'll I'm gonna open up with you. the title itself of our conversation, you guys all jumped on it. No one had to explain the need for it. but why do we need to have this conversation about homeschools emasculating their sons? Adam Taylor (03:36.438) Mm-hmm. Adam Taylor (03:56.566) Yeah. I think I would just start with going back to the tried and true phrase of anthropology determines education or formation. Right? It's just go back to the root of the thing. And so there's the the one context where there's the general view of what the human person is, right? The anthropology of the human person is created by God having a soul and having a a final purpose that rise resides back in him. But then we also have to remember that God created man and he created woman and each of those has its distinct representations of his image and likeness as well and they're very different and intentionally different. And so school itself, you know, for a ver variety of reasons, some of them nefarious, some just very well intentioned or some very practical, the necessity of, kind of tends to forget that that there's that two different charisms, two different aspects of the human person that are at play. and again, as you say, with homeschooling, and God bless mothers, my mother homeschooled, my stepmother homeschooled, my wife is homeschooled, my sister homeschools. there's so many good homeschool parents out there, mothers out there. But you know, at some point, the boy has to learn from a man. and if he does not, then he does not receive the completeness of what God intends for him to be based on his anthropology and how God's created him. Jason M. Craig (05:26.155) So Adam maybe this good question for Adam and Thomas. Dan, you know, one of the one of the ways that we got even connected, Adam, was that Dan started using my book, Leaving Boyhood Behind. And he told me that the reason was and I I had no intention of that book having anything to do with boarding schools. It doesn't mention boarding schools at all. Adam Taylor (05:36.887) Yes. Jason M. Craig (05:45.856) But I know that it's I think that's how Thomas and I became acquainted. So it's a book about it's an anthropological book that educators are using. Dan, he told me, I use it because th the mothers need this to read this book. and when I went to your graduation this past year, I I had no less than half dozen mothers come up. and and say, thank you for helping me see what I needed to see. So why is why is the message or I'll let Thomas answer this one maybe. I don't know if you've encountered this, maybe you haven't quite as much. I St. Dunstan's his newer, but what is it that you're convincing the mothers of? What are you trying to tell them without and and Adam just did a great job of this, without throwing them under the bus and saying that you've done something wrong, there's still like this message that that seems to be need to be communicated to the mothers. Thomas (06:37.55) I I think it's important to note the difference in different stages of homeschooling. I homeschool my kids, which you know means my wife mostly homeschools our kids. I do what I can. and I was homeschooled for a good bit growing up as well. The the topic that we're talking about today really isn't about sons in general. It's about sons once they've reached a certain age. you're not really worried about emasculating your nine year old by having him primarily taught by mom. and and other moms in the co op, right? the issue at hand is that Boys start to change around you know 12 to 14 years old. And they're not at the same developmental stage and they have a new need once they hit their adolescence. And that need is to be in a company of good men who are handing down masculinity to them. A lot of the moms that I've been talking with for the last couple of years, we're we're building our campus right now and running a gap year program for for guys who are just out of high school who already have their high school diploma. They're learning the building arts and spiritual direction and some wilderness skills with us, but we just opened up. Up our application for high schoolers for the fall of 27. And so we're having a lot of conversations with prospective parents right now. And most of the moms that I'm talking with, they have a sense that their their son needs something new, that there's some some kind of role that mom is not able to fill at this particular juncture. And they're trying to figure out what is the right time to send my boy out on his adventure and ask him to start growing up. And in our culture, we for whatever reason, over the last 100 years, I have some ideas about why. We've said 18 is the right age. To launch the young man and let him transition from his boyhood into adulthood. Traditionally, that's that's not been the case. It was much more normal, say around the time of the American founding, for a young man to set out on his adventure around 14 or 15 years old. Some just brief examples there. By the time John Quincy Adams was 15 years old, he was the de facto ambassador to Russia because he knew more French than anybody else in the American government. George Washington, by the time he was 15, 16 years old. Jason M. Craig (08:28.801) Mm-hmm. Thomas (08:42.68) Old was getting shot at by Indians past the Virginia frontier because he was surveying the state for the governor. You know, he's he's 15 years old when he's doing this kind of stuff. that was that was the norm. And so what we've done as a culture is we've held our young men back for longer. And so now when people think about their 14 to 18 year old son, they think about him being in the house as still part of very much part of the domestic sphere that he grew up in. And so part of our conversation is helping people reevaluate what is the right time to ask your son to turn into a man. And I think in pretty much every traditional culture, this is Jason, why your book has been so helpful to us, it hasn't been done at 18 years old. That initiation has started much earlier. Jason M. Craig (09:13.151) Mm-hmm. Jason M. Craig (09:22.943) Yeah, that's interesting. So even even though I wrote the book though, we're you know, my oldest son is fifteen. 'cause you know, again, that's an anthropological book. Wasn't speaking from a ton of experience, which makes me nervous that people are reading it. but you know, my I just it just occurred to me, I was reading a a book on architecture and this guy was just he was he was ripping on schools, high schools, the it's called the pattern language. I can't remember the name of the author, but beautiful Adam Taylor (09:24.629) Mm. Adam Taylor (09:48.951) Yes. Thomas (09:50.022) Christopher Alexander. Jason M. Craig (09:51.212) Chris for Alexander, there you go. I was reading his commentary on high schools. and what's interesting, it's very, it's very close and related to what to what do you think he calls the teenage cottage. And if anyone hasn't read the book, he's he just simply looks at Adam Taylor (09:51.543) Yes. Jason M. Craig (10:07.871) The the fact of the architecture, like the physical infrastructure of our country in the West, and just shows you this is not human. It doesn't allow humans to flourish. And he looks at places where humans do and have flourished and just like we should do these things, which it sounds simplistic. The book is very thick. but he makes the observation: one, high schools are industrialized co-ed nonsense. This is impossible to do. and then he proposes a couple things that schools should be shopfront schools within the community, essentially. But then he proposes something that I came down after reading, I said, we have to do this. He took calls it the teenage cottage, which is we because we homeschool our kids. And he's, you know, in traditional societies, the girls would have been sort of a in some sort of quarters like Mickey Mouse off the, you Mickey Mouse ear off the house. So it's connected, but still enough space to develop their own individual, you know, realities. And then the boys would be have a cottage outside of the house. And it just like it just hit me. I'm like, sweetie, they can't we can't homeschool them. They can't be surrounded by the same walls of their boyhood and and and become men. So like we we've got to figure out how they can stop living with us. so anyway, I'm it's it's amazing how yeah, knowing that it's even the the physical infrastructure of our homes and and you know, we need to consider that. Patrick, I'd ask you a question then, 'cause you I'm sorry, go ahead, was that Adam? Adam Taylor (11:29.311) It's Well just yeah, one one quick follow on thing there, just another anecdote is you know, early days at Saint Martin's, you know, Dan and I would talk about and we would talk with parents about this, almost this idea that like the boarding school idea is somewhat unnatural. You know what I mean? Like it's like people ask why boarding school? Why do you send your kids away, your sons away? and it seems unnatural. Like, yeah, maybe it is. Maybe it's kind of unnatural because we're having to like reclaim these things you write in your book and what we're talking about on the podcast today. But What we found out over the next couple of years, thinking about it as you have, and what that anecdote you just shared is actually it is natural for boys. It's very natural. It's just that most parents and most families don't have a space for a teenage cottage, right? They don't have that and for no fault of their own. It's just it's not part of our society that we have now. and so in a strange kind of way we've come back full circle in that like the boys boarding school in particular, but I think any boarding school is actually perhaps even somewhat necessary. Jason M. Craig (12:32.201) Yeah, I I I've wrestled with that because I know you I got all you guys that are my boarding school friends and I realized I'm not the reason I'm not sending my sons yet, maybe we'll change, is that I need them on the on our farm. So we have a practical need for them and then I and I realize they have men around them that are forming them. I think the other reason that the boarding school becomes whether it's natural or necessary, maybe that's what we're debating, It's not just that the boys don't have anywhere to go to sep to separate. They actually don't have a company of men and a brotherhood of men that's doing the intentional formation. I mean it's even belongs to the local brotherhood of men to to decide what are what are the signs of honor, what are the the the things of honor and then we will bestow the honor. So if there's not those men, then what do you do? all right, I'll go get my question with with Patrick, 'cause cause ya I know that you consult broadly within just education, like What happened? What is what is going on? Like are we getting boys wrong? I mean, public schools, Catholic schools, home schools. Like is there something in the whole educational mindset you think that is missing this boat that maybe 'cause we might even if if our anthropology is right, we might still be you know missing some important points about forming our sons. Patrick Faus (13:49.842) Right. Well, egalitarianism and the lack of a masculine image is not just a homeschool problem. Right. This is not just a homeschool issue. This is a culture wide issue. Right. I I was a public school student. I I was not somebody who was raised within a homeschool paradigm or frame. I was somebody very much raised in a progressive utilitarian education. And I could tell you there was a lack of masculine presence. and it was fundamentally, like I said, pervasively egalitarian. that's what I received, that's what I knew. Really y young men, particularly around that, you know, thirteen to fourteen age as we were discussing, I was very much trained almost to be effeminate in terms of how I sat. and for for the young girls, obviously who who are across from me, that was just very consistent with their nature in terms of the arrangement and the setup and all of that. But I found for for young men like myself who are very active, who very much want to be outside and all of that, it was very, very difficult. And and so Jason M. Craig (14:35.115) Mm. Patrick Faus (14:46.017) This type of issue really, like I said, is not just exclusive as we recognize, just to the homeschool, private school, but it really, like I said, it is a it is a modern problem. And I think so much for us is we're trying to recover. So much of education as Milton Wright talked about, it's it's the rec it's right, a recovery of what has been lost, right, in terms of ruins and things of that nature. And so we're trying to figure that out, but not only for our our sons. But for us, even as fathers, as men, we're trying to understand what does it mean to be normatively and consistently human? What what does that mean? And so I think even for us as as the, you know, the we we talk about just this kind of classical homeschool renewal towards education and understanding it away from merely a kind of vocational careerism approach to okay, it's formational of what it means to be a human. We're still trying to understand, wait, part of my formation as a human. Has been hindered, has been negated in some ways. And so I'm still trying to cover that. So we're also what we're tending to do is we almost have this buffet style for our own sense of well, what archetype do I need? is it the man who's chopping down the tree, right? Which I wish I I I would love to go chop a tree with you guys. That'd be nice. We just have a lot of palm trees here in California. Jason M. Craig (15:55.297) Mm-hmm. Adam Taylor (15:58.389) Mm-hmm. Jason M. Craig (16:06.442) Yeah. Patrick Faus (16:06.453) And so but but it'd be a great skill to learn. what does that look like though? What what sort of image? Is it the John Wayne type of picture? Is it the the the guy sitting on the couch with with the cigar and the glass of wine? Is it a combination of both? What does that look like? And I think so so much for many of us, we're trying to even recover what that looks like. And and I think what what I have found with kind of a consistent response with a lot of fathers, a lot of husbands, has been sort of the kind of default approach to delegate that to the mom. Delegate to the wife that I don't really study educational philosophy. I don't really study pedagogy. And so I'm gonna defer that to my wife. And it's almost like the expert culture. She kind of becomes the pseudo-expert. And so therefore, I'm here, right? Maybe I'll provide some finances, I'll give some feedback, but that really isn't my domain of expertise. And I think so much of that is just logistical. A husband's working 40 to 50 hours a week, he's sort of out. So but therefore, just kind of by necessity. That kind of becomes the paradigm. That becomes the s the sense of arrangement. but it is the issue. And I and I can tell you so many moms who both me and my wife talk to, we have a a tutorial program of what we do locally, where it's a one-day-a-week program where we meet from roughly about ten to three o'clock and we're focusing on families. It functions very much like like a more of a of an organized, formalized co-op, you could say, is how it's arranged. And the For the kids, for the for the young boys, so for the moms who have young boys who are hitting that ten, eleven, they're already starting to see those signs of resistance at home. And they're already kind of having just that spirit of prudence to recognize what are we gonna do to overcome this? What does this look like? Because I'm already recognizing once we get to thirteen, fourteen, fifteen, it's just not gonna work. so what do we do? So that is a common sentiment that is expressed again and again that both me and my wife here. Jason M. Craig (18:01.055) Yeah, I so I'm a public school kid, you know, there's the and I remember researching this and experience experiencing and saying that is it. You know, the the boys that do best in school are the ones that act the most like girls, right? They tend to get in trouble less, sit still longer, don't get in fights, don't wanna do any you know, don't wanna do any actually do their homework, which is not something I can relate to. when I was in when I was in school my my wife's like, How did you graduate? I'm like, I bought all the teachers biscuits on the way to school and I just slipped. Adam Taylor (18:26.015) Yeah. Patrick Faus (18:29.569) I I yeah, I said bribery was a great friend. Adam Taylor (18:30.123) Yeah. Jason M. Craig (18:31.009) Yeah, property I bribed my t was brilliant. It's just that's how the world worked. I learned it early. but the yeah, they they well I think the the educational error that you're bringing up to is that is that we treat them the same and then we create a system that we want this androgynous word called children to go through. and it becomes the same you know universal applied to a p to particulars that doesn't fit. and Adam Taylor (18:57.076) Mm-hmm. Jason M. Craig (19:01.267) It's it just it seems to me, I'll just gonna throw it out there, it seems to me that that happens quite easily in in the homeschool world that that they can be very much just treated that way and just not recognizing things that the boy needs, even in his boyhood. so I so that here's here's my next question. Anybody can jump out if i if if a a thought comes to you. I know there's a risk that we have our boys in the home school read about heroes but never become one, because they're they're inside in the books all day. so what maybe maybe in the spirit of John Sr. Who, by the way, we all I think we all share a love of John Sr. He did not like homeschools, which is an interesting thing, that all of us in the homeschool world all everyone loves to talk about John Sr., but his opinion was that homeschools were bad. So if anybody here knows or he did not like the idea of it, I'll put it that way. So because he's so beloved in the homeschool world, he also is the inspiration behind so many things that do take the formation of boys into men seriously. does anybody have a a take on why, maybe John Sr.'s perspective against the home school in relation to this topic? Adam Taylor (20:20.713) Yeah, I can jump in because I heard him say the words myself when I was young. It was kind of shocking. and my dad actually my dad my dad actually took the the the same thing. And and it's so ironic because my dad's arc with homeschooling went from that same kind of approach with John Sr. of like, nope, it's not good. that way, you know, leads to eventually I mean it sounds good at first, but eventually leads there, but he went the full arc and eventually became like Jason M. Craig (20:25.153) Hmm. Yeah, okay, you talk then. You talk then. Thomas (20:29.866) Ha ha ha. Adam Taylor (20:50.237) a guest speaker at homeschooling conferences all over the country. Right? So it's kind of ironic. But I think if if you know, through my dad and before I remember from John Sr., his main thing about the homeschooling thing was I think this part of it was that one, how you know, at a at a certain age, again we all have to call like stages. I think Thomas, you talked about that earlier, right? There's a certain stage where all children, the mom, what she does for formation for their children, you could almost take out any curriculum, formal curriculum and structure. And if a mom is just a good, you know, you have a liturgy of the home, right? Then that is the form that's all the formation necessary, right? But then after you get past that point and you really start to na wrestle with more the intellectual and abstract ideas of perhaps a little philosophy and humanities and theology and some of these other areas, like if you if you haven't you yourself been sort of steeped in it and and and trained in it, those become difficult to do well. And so I think that was part of his early concern is that if it's not done well and also the children become somewhat sheltered and don't have to sort of wrestle and tangle with other ideas and perspectives outside the home, that they could get that kind of, you know, I think a lot of people have in their head the kind of the the LARPy sort of stereotype, right? Of coming out of homeschool, right? Where you know you get the 19 year old kid who's in a bow tie and suspenders and smoking a pipe, right? And crossing his leg at the knee. And like, no, you don't rate that yet. You're not a man, right? so I think that was that was one of them, right? He was just concerned about the wholeness and the fullness of the human person and their educational development. And then I think second, you know, is a way only senior can, it's just this deep, profound insight that at a certain point, like mom's focus really her her. Jason M. Craig (22:22.987) Yeah. Adam Taylor (22:44.511) best thing that she can be doing is that again that formation of the younger children, right, to a certain age. And anything she does in homeschooling is naturally going to overwhelm and detract and stress her ability to do that to the younger children that are really the sweet spot for her. And I can tell you that from my own sister, who's an amazing homeschooler, right? but she struggles with that big time. Right. And a lot of parents do. So I think that was John Sr. my dad's kind of first take on it. But then my dad, like I said, came full circle. Because I think what what happened is you go out into the the the real world sphere and you see what's out there and it's like, well, homeschooling may not be the best, but dear lord, it's as an alternative, if we don't do this, we may lose, you know, several generations. And so that was kind of the the arc of things there. Jason M. Craig (23:25.281) Mm-hmm. Jason M. Craig (23:34.985) Yeah. Well it's interesting. go ahead. Thomas (23:35.429) Yeah, you you I was just gonna say with each one of your children and with your family as a whole, you have to be asking the question, not what is the perfect solution for education, but given the options that are actually feasible for me from both a sort of lifestyle and financial perspective and what's available in your area, you say what's what's the the least bad option? and oftentimes homeschooling is the least bad option, but that doesn't mean that it's perfect. And I do think one of the risks Adam Taylor (23:58.645) Yeah. Thomas (24:05.306) When you get into that adolescent period for young men, is that they can be a little bit more sheltered. there is, I think, the risk of failing to transition the boy into his young manhood because he's still with the person who's been taking care of him since he was born. As long as the adolescent is in his mom's house, he's gonna feel more like a boy. And mom's tendency is to take care of him. one of the primary differences between a boy and a man is a boy is someone who is provided for, and a man provides for others. So as long as you keep that boy in his mom's care for most of the day, it's going to be harder for him psychologically and in his routine to start acting more like a man. And it's going to be harder for mom to treat him like a man as well. And there's a simple way of thinking about this. When you're thinking about your son, and I would say this to moms, are you thinking about your 15-year-old more as an old boy or a young man? And depending on how you you label him, there are different needs you're going to be attending to. Jason M. Craig (24:58.187) Mm-hmm. Jason M. Craig (25:04.351) Yeah. Yeah this Patrick Faus (25:04.929) There there's something there's something powerful about two when somebody leaves, like when somebody actually goes on some type of excursion, some type of quest, right? You know, the the Odyssey is fresh on everybody's minds right now. And I think of Telemachus. Well, while he was at home in Ithaca, the suitors did not see him much as a threat. But the moment he takes off to Pylos and to Sparta, that's the moment they start to take him more seriously. That's the moment they start to say, wait a second. He's now becoming a man. Adam Taylor (25:30.664) Patrick Faus (25:33.036) Now, this is a potentially of a threat here that we actually need to pay attention to. And even his mother Penelope starts to actually take him with a little bit more gravitas, a little bit more weight. But it needed, he needed to have actually to go on that type of quest. He needed to go out and he needed that inspiration by Athena to actually go out. And you're right, I I think what happens so often, and I and I've seen this play out too many times, is we can get too sheltered, and it's actually a stifling of the nature. Adam Taylor (25:39.572) Mm-hmm. Patrick Faus (25:59.032) Where for the female nature, this is more consistent, especially a domestic type of formation. But for the man, right, there is a sense they need that. It stretches them, it challenges them. And they need that. And so we need to find that. And and Senior was spot on with that. And it's funny, Adam, me and Amanda were just literally having this conversation about what is the ideal, right? And so even Thomas, to your point, right? There is the ideal, but there's This almost kind of pragmatic compromise, not compromise, that may be a bit, but it this is at least better in terms of the hierarchy of what's available and what's present. But to me, the the larger issue of this really comes down to of what I see. Obviously, we've talked about the anthrop anthropological issue o of all of it, but it's the idea of almost like we're so severed in terms of families and all of that, even from unifying with the church on this. And once we surrendered that to the government and the state education. We've all been trying to sort of figure this out again. And this is why, with our tradition, with our parishes, having that sense of reinforcement with our pastors, with our priests, that allows us to have that that really that support that has been eradicated for a long time. And more churches are seeking to do this, more parishes are trying to do this. But this really becomes really such a such a needed resource again that has been severed for the last hundred years. Jason M. Craig (27:23.327) Yeah. I think an inter interesting point I like to make to people is when coeducation, which was the state's idea, never the church would have no or or ancient edu educators in the ancient world, when coeducation, you know, was first debuted, I believe it was Pius the Ninth, condemned it as obviously unnatural and stupid. Have you not seen that the world men is divided between men and women and they don't mix very well except in marriage, so why would we Adam Taylor (27:24.424) Yeah. Adam Taylor (27:47.086) Ha ha ha. Adam Taylor (27:52.244) Yeah. Jason M. Craig (27:52.374) put kid why would we put especially under the guise of education. that's the worst reason to put together. that's that that's just a matter of efficiency or ideology that thinks that well we can treat them the same 'cause they are. Or even worse now, they're interchangeable. to to everyone's point though, what is interesting is we we do want to, you know, give de 'cause Giving talks like this, it's yeah, there's no like it's hard to tell the mothers, you know, there's no such thing as as spothering, right? Smothering that can happen because a mother's natural desire, her her her nature itself gathers things in. This is why the church as a mother, the the the St. Peter's Square, those are arms bringing the world into its bosom. That's what she does. And to become a man for others, like Thomas says, to be able to provide, to be priestly, that's to be separated out. from the mother and there are many mothers that don't let that happen. and this is where I think what's coming up or they don't want that to happen. It might be they that pride, I can do it, I can make my son into a man. It might be ignorance. I didn't know that I couldn't educate them all the way up to 18. I thought because it was so sweet in the early years, what the hell's going on now? or they actually don't like men in masculinity and they would rather their s they they prefer their son be effeminate, honestly. They prefer him to be emasculated because then she can maintain control of him. you know. Mothers that do things to not let their sons, in a sense, you know, blossom, as they say, which I don't think that's the word for boys, but they don't let their sons go on their adventure. It's because they they they like their boy and they would like to keep you know, and this comes out especially if that boy finally breaks free and gets married, you know, then she's in competition with for the affection between the wife and the poor boy in the middle is trying to keep everybody happy. That being said, it seems like what we're bringing up when it comes to the homeschool, because the context of homeschool versus different Jason M. Craig (29:49.714) types of school, boarding school or public school, is that it's in the context of the family itself. because it's not as if homeschooling is not doing school at home. right. That everybody discovered that during COVID. Like homeschooling and school homing is not the same thing. it is it is recognizing, as you guys are saying, that we are actually choosing the context of the home to be a place of education, which it already was. We're just we're just on purpose about it, right? 'Cause the home is always formational. We're just we're gonna just read more books now and we're not gonna send you off to this other thing. That means that we have to recognize the nature of the family and the nature of the relationships of the family and recognize Adam Taylor (30:29.085) Mm. Jason M. Craig (30:30.483) what the mother and what the father ought to give properly. And if if you guys would agree, you can riff on this, but I think a lot of the problems is that there actually is it's it's not a problem of curriculum method or anything. It's actually the the conversation and understanding between the mother and the father is not there. And I think the father is shocked to find out that he has some sort of role. His and because a lot of moms are the ones that want to do it. And he's he was accustomed probably by his like my own upbringing that school is what you send your boys to. But we're now saying that home it sounds like what we're getting to is that if the mother and the father don't understand that and this is not a competition. This just like both sides of the brain do different things, but for different reasons, with different emphasis. I'm on an Ian McGilchrist kick right now, but Adam Taylor (31:09.737) Mm-hmm. Jason M. Craig (31:17.907) So the mother and the father, it doesn't make it one equal or unequal at any moment, but the mother oversees the nurturing of the body and the young flesh. And the man, the father, oversees bringing about the completion of the boy into a man. And it seems like what we keep getting back to is this it's it's not because I think a lot of moms will listen to this and go, what am I doing wrong? Here's what moms are, right? my son, my son's has a sickness. It's cause I took antibiotics when he was in utero. You know, they blame themselves for everything. it really sounds like the fathers are not recognizing their role if if the kid's not being sent to a St. Dunstan's or a St. Martin's Academy, that maybe they're just they're I think fathers are shocked when they're asked for help and mothers are exacerbated when they don't get it. So how though a as men, and maybe Patrick has had to deal with this, I think a father needs to understand Adam Taylor (32:07.049) Mm-hmm. Jason M. Craig (32:16.159) When he accepts homeschooling as the form of education for his for his children, that he too is accepting responsibility. You know, so if our our first if our first message is you know, the mother can can can nurture and she can make that decision, you know, and she needs to hear that okay, there comes time to let go. What's some advice you guys might give a father, you know, who only has maybe he only has two hours a day with his son. Jason M. Craig (32:46.901) What do you do with two hours? Adam Taylor (32:47.721) Yeah. Yeah, I beautifully said, Jason, and and great question. and I think your point about the father and having a tendency to be like, hey, I work, I provide for the family, I put food on the table, I'll get the money to pay for the school, I do these things, I'm being a good man. And they're not wrong. But it's not complete, as you say, it's not the fullness of what they should be doing. and and you know, some of this is just generational culture, right? That's what you do. Right. We've been taught like by a couple generations now, like that's what the dad does. and so a lot I I think a lot of it is just unawareness. but then I think some of it's a little bit intimidation. I remember you know, Patrick and Amanda have this wonderful, you know, resource that goes along with the children's tradition called the tool shed, where you just got these message boards and forum boards and all sorts of questions come up. But one that just kind of keeps coming up over and over and it came up during the conference, the annual conference was like, How do I get my husband engaged? Like I'm doing all this work, but the husband's not really bought in. And it's, you know, take your pick. It's, well, I never studied philosophy. I never studied these things. I don't know how do it. Or, you know, all these, well, mom's got it, right? Take your pick. But I think, I do think here, right, that there's the piece of like the understanding of a mother needs to understand what a young man must be and must become and how he gets there. And her role in letting him go to do that. But then the other half of that coin is fathers saying that I own at the end of the day as the head of the family, the patra familias, ultimately I am responsible for the formation of my children, just as I would be for the formation of my family. And I think that's where, quite honestly, I think a lot of men have abdicated that role or just compartmentalized that off. And so I think one is it just a clarion call, men get engaged. Adam Taylor (34:48.37) Two, own it, right? three, you don't have to actually do much, but be a man, right? So if you have two hours, you can read a book, surely, even if it's a simple book like Farmer Boy or Huck Finn or Tom Sawyer or something. Like you could read a little bit to your kids. You could do nothing more than say, hey, let's just go find the nearest woods and just go run around in the woods for an hour or two. Let's just go outside and I don't know. Jason M. Craig (35:19.777) Wait, Adam, can you can you still run for two hours? That's I can't run for two hours. Whenever we see a dad at the park where he's running very energetically with his kids, I always tell my kids that's that's that's a divorced family. Because a a a dad who's gotta be home all week, he knows he knows he can't do that all week. He's just cramming it all in, really. yeah, that I think go keep going up. Adam Taylor (35:24.39) No, the father kind of does, sits there and the kids run around for two hours. Exactly. Right? Adam Taylor (35:38.793) He's overcompensating. Yeah. Yeah. But I mean, my I I guess, yeah, I guess my my just to to put a button on it, my point there is is there's so much fathers can do just by being present, even if it's short periods of time. Right. And it's just simple things, but but are things that are distinctively provide either the male half of something like reading the story or telling the story. Or something distinctly male, like making things, breaking things, figuring out how they work, digging in the dirt, playing around, rough housing, whatever else it is, that they don't have to dive into philosophy, they don't have to deep dive into Augustine or Boethius or any of these things to really like give that. And I think they should be encouraged by that. and that they should jump in. Jason M. Craig (36:26.561) Yeah. Thomas (36:26.99) Yeah. Absolutely. And and Jason, part of the key there is recognizing what you said that homeschooling is not school at home. If you're thinking of it as school at home, then you're gonna run through a list of subjects in your mind and be like, Well, I can't teach Latin and I'm you know, high school math is beyond my reach. Yeah, I'm not doing this, right? but homeschooling i is the whole context of the family home economy is the place where the soul is formed. and dad has plenty of opportunities taking care of a household to invite his young man into a place of responsibility and risk. And those are two really important ingredients for a young man leaving his boyhood behind. Sorry to rip your title off there, Jason. It's a Yeah, it's it's a great title. If if any of the listeners have not read it, they should buy it right now. the but the the one of the vital needs of a boy. Jason M. Craig (37:04.629) No, keep keep repeat keep repeating it. Yeah. Thomas (37:16.794) if he's going to realize he's not a boy anymore, he is growing into his manhood, he needs to know he's got what it takes, right? He needs to know that he can face challenges and make it through the other side. And what that means is he needs real risks. And real challenges put in front of him in a way that most of the time mom is not likely to do it. Mom is not likely to put her son in a place of physical danger. And so I think dad needs to be thinking through how I can invite my son into risky things that allow him to grow in competence and confidence so that he realizes he can provide for other people and take care of himself in the process. And that that takes a little bit of creative thinking from dad, but a couple of easy things. the outside is your friend when you're dealing with boys. Like take your guy into the woods. Jason M. Craig (37:34.337) Mm-hmm. Thomas (37:58.937) Yes, to run around, but think about like can I take my son camping or backpacking and take away the comforts and conveniences of his normal life and force him to start learning how to improvise and innovate in an unusual setting? Can I take him to a place where he is actually counted on to get something done for other people? I think building things is great. Anytime you can take your son on a building project where his budding physical strength provides something useful for other people, that's great. But all that to say, you to get outside the confines. of a a sort of strictly speaking curriculum of studies and start thinking about what does our whole life entail and where can I bring my boy to my elbow to do those things with me. I like Jason, you're saying with your boys on the farm. Jason M. Craig (38:38.463) Yeah. Yeah, I think you guys well one thing you're identifying or it's it's between the lines here is that for a father to help with homeschooling, or a mother to ask for help, the thing you ought not do is ask for a second mother. So if the mother is the primary implementer of a curriculum, I and I would say to Adam's point, yes, all right, read read the book in the evening. But A lot of times her exacerbation might just be with the the actual homeschooling, so she just wants him to do some of what she's doing. And that probably isn't the answer because if we're gonna say that there's a dis a distinct thing that the man is offering and providing, it's masculinity. and I would propose, I mean, what we do, so we're we're fraternist members, and so fraternist men, they they basically make a commitment that every day I'm gonna train in virtue. I'm gonna check in on that once a week with my sons or my brothers, and I'm gonna go on adventures or I'm gonna go take risks, do something a couple times a year. That's it. There's three things. And it's what's funny is It's the training in virtue when my sons and I were doing it every day. It's a and it it's interesting it needs to be quick and doable, like an actionable thing. Because if we do it, it takes two minutes. You do it in two minutes, and it's an act of self. But it this is this is particular to forming virtue. And I think if fathers could just take on that. understanding of responsibility and virtue because virtue is not the same as a as a a topic of study. It's not a curriculum, right? It's actually the cultivation of the person. And I think Aquinas is teaching if if we if we con contextualize it right, he's actually virtue is not it's not a self, it's not even really self-mastery. I don't think that that's not a very good definition. It's maturity. Jason M. Craig (40:26.709) Virtue is the powers that are within you perfected. Because when you're young and you lack those virtues, it's not because you are sinful or inadequate, it's because you're young. It's like that's we it's like it'd be like getting mad at a at a a young sapling for being weak in the trunk, right? would be like getting mad at a boy that doesn't yet have fortitude, right? Later though, that for the maturity of that tree, that's where the father should recognize I don't this isn't a thing of study, it's not a matter of control, it's not a matter of expertise. It's a matter of I am meant as a father to help guide him into that. So again, I think what you guys are I and I wasn't expecting I was expecting different angles, but it's this sort of handoff to the mother and between the mother and father, it really is him getting the satisfaction of learning to become a man and us defining that as as being vertical. virtuous, gaining these virtues that are that are potentially there in you. They need to be matured. and let that let that be understood as part of the homeschooling so that when dad comes and he has a day off work and he says, no, we're not doing class today. We're going on a hike or we're or we're changing the oil, moms need to hear that as I'm teaching a class today, right? And not get overwhelmed, you know, with Adam Taylor (41:47.291) Yes. Jason M. Craig (41:48.502) 'Cause everything you guys were listening, none of them were teach a class to him, to to your kids. You know, it was take it take him and do what only you can do and and the context of what you will do will help form him. 'Cause the context of the house alone is not enough, is what we're saying. Adam Taylor (41:53.519) No. No. Adam Taylor (42:02.236) Yeah. Patrick Faus (42:05.434) My my old mentor used to tell me what you do, your children will do in excess. And so with with with as fathers, the best place to start is be present and attend. That that's the best thing you can do. And and it's the little thing. So often what we're looking for the larger type of scope of of activity, but it really is the more informal that actually becomes the most sharpening and the most shapening. and it could be as something as simple, yes, being outside, being oriented towards the outdoors is essential, right? 'Cause you you're teaching men actually how to be in the soil, in the dirt, right? And to have that proper disposition in that way. But it's it's little things, even just take why I take my son and we're going to the g we're going to the gas station and I'm teaching him how to do it. I'm d I'm you know, I'm teaching him actually i if if I'm going to the grocery store and I'm teaching him how to buy goods. Jason M. Craig (42:48.075) Yeah. Patrick Faus (42:53.4) And different things like that. I I I'm teaching them just all these kind of different as I'm going, right? that's even the principle if you look at the the Deuteronomy principle of as parents, right, as covenant heads as they're shaping their children, it's as you walk. Deuteronomy six, seven, as you're going, you're training. as you're leaving, it's not just confined to the household or to a room and to a desk, but it's as you're living life, you are training, you are teaching. So a father has to be present. Adam Taylor (43:10.107) Mm. Patrick Faus (43:23.33) And he has to attend to that. And and I think what what we we get a lot of moms who will call us because there's a frustration. And there's a frustration for a number of levels, right? that that can be there. And some of it can be just exasperation that they're tired, right? They're they're they're really trying, they're doing things. And their overall orientation, I would say, is is good. There can maybe be bents towards control, maybe manipulation, different things like that that would definitely be maybe presents as A vice, but f let's just kind of go maybe with the paradigm and just generally, hey, their orientation is good. The thing that we have tried to tell the wife, the worst thing you can do is nag. Nag where they the where they have to prompt their husband to try to say, Hey, study educational philosophy, read the restoration of Christian culture, read the death of Christian culture. Great books. I love to read that. But the best thing that they can do, what with someone like John Sr., right, or the great James Taylor. Jason M. Craig (44:06.742) Yeah. Patrick Faus (44:17.592) Right, we're talking about poetic knowledge, right? Which is something that so often what we talk about the children's tradition is cultivating the right sensibilities. And there's multiple ways to recover your humanity. And a father may have that maybe just more in different ways. What the wife needs to find is what those poetic sensibilities are and lean on those. Lean on them and encourage him to excel in those things and infuse those into the home. We so deduce education to Jason M. Craig (44:39.083) Mm-hmm. Patrick Faus (44:46.35) Book reading and data collection. And that's not what education is, right? It you could say it's a part of course we're forming the moral imagination and literature is a part of that. But there's so many ways to recover one's humanity. And so finding those poetic connections, that's what the wife needs to do, and ha and and encourage the husband to fly with them, those are great starting points. Jason M. Craig (44:50.806) Yeah. Jason M. Craig (45:07.145) Yeah, I am I I'm I'm so glad and it's providential you use the word attend 'cause sword and spade, the next issue we're working on, I can go ahead and reveal it's attention. and I'm working on a an article about siblings and how different the like everybody's a child development expert 'til they have their second kid, you know, that Adam Taylor (45:13.073) If it Adam Taylor (45:16.463) Mm. Jason M. Craig (45:27.945) We we we don't know what we don't know. I mean that actually one of the wisest homeschooling dads I know, he said, I used to think that my my job was to bring discipline and order and provision to the home, but I realize now, like a God, the thing that I need to do the most is to know them. Patrick Faus (45:28.76) so true. Jason M. Craig (45:44.806) to n and this this is not in just like an effeminate emoting kind of way. It's actually just to know so that when you understand them. And I I was thinking about the scene and putting this in like sort of virtue ethics, it's well it's to be just, right? That 'cause from a siblings perspective, you know, you don't treat us all the s you don't treat us equally. It's like, yeah, I don't treat you like a seventeen year old girl, right? Son. the to Adam Taylor (46:09.495) Yeah. Jason M. Craig (46:11.263) What what happens is that we and they want equality, but they don't actually want equality. They want to be known. So if you want justice, which is what not is the type of equality we want justice, what's preceded by prudence, which deals with particulars, and to de-abstract that, you remember that scene in the Sound of Music where the captain is being confronted by Maria, who's and and he is like, Don't tell me how to talk to about my children. Adam Taylor (46:19.758) Mm. Jason M. Craig (46:41.055) And in that instance, he's he universalizes his children. And what does she do to try to get his attention? She says, Little so-and-so needs this, little so-and-so is that. She keeps particularizing the children in their needs. And I think what fathers do is we try to universalize all of the individuals into children, because it can be overwhelming to know and care for all those people. And you go and they say things like, Aren't I providing enough for this house? Right? And what they're asking is not for you to provide more. Adam Taylor (46:58.95) Mm. Jason M. Craig (47:10.005) They're asking you to know them. You know, and that is again, this goes back to that age of adolescence because they're really knowable now. Little kids, they're a lot more of the same. I mean, they're, you know, they got their differences. But you start, those differences really come out when the character of of a young man or young woman is forming. And you know what they want from their father? They don't want an education, they want to be known. Adam Taylor (47:20.858) Mm-hmm. Adam Taylor (47:30.661) Yeah. Jason M. Craig (47:30.921) It would have been known by him. And that itself is an education. I think if a father can say that that's my j ask them about what they're learning without making it about you. Like, well, I didn't read philosophy, so I can't talk to him about it. Well, hell, your kids are learning it. Why don't you ask them about it? You know, learn something that they're learning. because the big error, I'm the big problem, a big blind spot, I think, in the classical education movement within the homeschool context is well, the classical world was a culture that was passed on that you were initiated into to ask a father to Thomas (47:43.886) Mm. Adam Taylor (47:45.668) Yeah. Jason M. Craig (48:00.788) To be a part of passing on something he doesn't have, well, he can't. We need to ask them to bring we the mothers need to allow this. We need to just allow, challenge the fathers to say, you need to bring your sons into your world. And we in the homeschool infrastructure needs to allow that to happen. So to Patrick's point, I think that's great advice. I think it was Patrick that said it, like, let your the in the sense of poetic knowledge, your husband is good or or something about him, hopefully you married him, is is worth imitating and knowing, let your kids know that. Let him do that with them. And and if but if fathers don't have something that's manly to bring their they're gonna have to cultivate. I mean if you I'm you know, I guess the extremes would be the the video game dad or the you know the just total passive dad like you that that you can't you cannot play video games with your son and make him into a man. I think we should just say that. That doesn't count. That's not man time, right? That's boy time. Adam Taylor (48:52.11) Mm. Adam Taylor (48:55.386) Correct. Patrick Faus (48:55.47) You real quick, you you bring up the point about con about wanting to be known and the idea of a a son, even if the father's a bad, crappy father, he still wants to be known and have a connection with his father. And there's a sense of identity that's cultivated through that. Like there's this sense almost like of a a baton passing onto them, right? So your masculinity, right, establishes the very foundation and cornerstone. And you're passing this baton on them to to in other words to carry that on. And again, I don't mean to keep going to the Odyssey. It's again, it's so fresh in my mind, obviously, with the film and everything that's going out. But it makes me think of again of Telemachus, who's going through this identity crisis. But the moment he's told by King Nestor in book three that he is the son of Odysseus, there's this sense of orientation it creates for him. And there's this sense of grounding and gravitas that he recovers the moment he is told he's the son of Odysseus. Jason M. Craig (49:45.121) Mm-hmm. Patrick Faus (49:51.385) His identity is captured by that. He is known, and that gives him that again, it instills that level of confidence that that's really what young men want. They want confidence is was what we want for them, not arrogance. Adam Taylor (50:00.497) Yeah. Jason M. Craig (50:02.688) Mm-hmm. Adam Taylor (50:03.428) Yeah, the i if I go ahead. Thomas (50:03.75) Yeah, and who and who sends Odysseus on the or t sorry, sorry Adam to interrupt there, but you know, who sends who sends Telemachus on his quest to go and find out, you know, who his father was? Well, e e even even the goddess, when she wants to come and help the young man, can't do it in female form. She has to become mentor. She has to become in the guise of a man. Because masculinity has to be passed down from man to man. that's a that's a really good point. Adam Taylor (50:08.378) No. Jason M. Craig (50:11.859) Not a woman. Well, it's kind of a yeah, not a woman, kinda. Patrick Faus (50:22.02) Right. Yep, has to be a mentor. Right. That's right. That's right. Adam Taylor (50:25.114) Yes, exactly. Patrick Faus (50:28.74) Right. Yep. Adam Taylor (50:32.42) Yep. Well it's it's I'm glad you brought that up, Thomas, because it dovetails kind of what I was gonna riff on Patrick. Is and and this is by way of another sort of encouragement for fathers. and is something I've been rattling down in my brain for about a couple years now is like I think wherever possible, men whose wives homeschool should form their own men's co-op. Right? And call it. I mean fraternis would be a great option, wouldn't it, Jason? Right? Join Fraternus, right? Or whatever else it is. But like if like homeschooling dads got together and said, Hey, individually I may lack these things, I may lack these things, you may have this thing. But if they got together and just said, Hey, once a week, once a month, whatever, on top of what dad may be already doing, we're gonna go and do something with our boys. And and and it dovetails on both these things, and it's kind of an inverse thing. It's beautiful about the Odyssey, right? Because Jason M. Craig (51:01.323) Yeah, do it. Yeah. Adam Taylor (51:26.318) What is it about the suitors in Telemachus? They don't know him. And they refuse to know him, which is why, you know, part of their sin is so great and terrible. But how comforting is it to then be known by those? And so it makes me think of, you know, say what you will about Jordan Peterson, but you know, he's got some some neat ideas. But I I went to one of his talks, I don't know, three, four years ago, and he was on this riff of talking about young men in particular, but I mean all children, but especially young men, young boys, is that they just like all the legends, right? So you go back to the Egyptian mythology, you go to Greek mythology, you go kind of all the rest, typically in there you'll find something where there's this father-son handing off and all these things. But along with that is this notion that the son should be able to receive and try on and play with many father figures. Right? And and that like they should be in a proper, better ordered society. You should have your older brothers, your uncles, your older cousins, your priests, your teachers, your male teachers, your mechanics, your shopmates, or whatever it is. Start with the family, expand it out. But that you know, I've watched my own son do this. I remember doing it as a kid. Is what do we do? today I'm gonna dress up as fireman Joe. Tomorrow I'm gonna dress up as Father Tim. This day I'm gonna dress up, I'm gonna be like Uncle Bob because he's an airline pilot, right? And what he he says, what that does. Jason M. Craig (52:43.605) Mm-hmm. Jason M. Craig (52:49.525) Mm-hmm. Adam Taylor (52:51.853) Is it allows you to, you know, get your own father's perspective, but then get all those other different flavors of manhood and masculinity. And what it does is a couple things. One, it actually beautifully reinforces the books that they're reading because they're abstract. But then now I can start to relate those to actual human beings, like, that guy's like Odysseus, or that guy's like Achilles, or that guy's like so and so, that I know in the flesh, really. and then the second thing it does is allows them to play, the boys to stretch and play with all these different things, and by doing having this sort of panopoly, right, they can then start to figure themselves out better in the context of who they are with their father and themselves. And so, like, like I think that's a a much needed thing in the homeschooling world is for for fathers just to band together whatever they can, two or three dudes, two guys, whatever, and get together and just Come up with ways to provide their boys those different flavors of things, I think that would be a godsend. Jason M. Craig (53:51.913) Yeah, we go ahead, go ahead, Thomas. Thomas (53:52.251) Yeah, I've I've got two two real quick examples of that. I we got some guys working with us this summer here at St. Dunstan's who can come from this great community in Boone, North Carolina. And two of the ideas that I thought were great that that they had growing up from guys in their church, one of the guys started a Bible study, one of the older guys who was in his 40s and and later on fifties, he called it Christ in Kilos. And he would get together all these homeschooled boys once a week to lift weights early in the morning. And you'd teach them how to navigate the weight room and then they'd have a Bible study right afterwards, before the dads had to go off to work. and then the same group, the dads liked to get together and smoke pipes and talk about books. And they started inviting the young men, the 14, 15-year-old guys, to come and be part of this group that they called the coal biters. So they would they had this men's thing that they did because the men liked to do it together, and they said, Hey, we should we should be inviting the young men into this and bringing them into that company. It's not like most people wouldn't look at that and say that's school. But that was actually a really formative part of these young guys' lives that it you know, continues ten years later to be really meaningful to them and they they talk about it still. Jason M. Craig (54:56.501) No, this is the I mean, I it's funny I'm well, we're wrapping up here, guys. I'm telling you, 'cause we need to end on this point. Not that because we've actually arrived at what is what what the father is actually missing, right? When he thinks it if he feels inadequate to to the raising of his sons, brotherhood, we and this is just something we have discovered. Well, one, and when I was researching the rites of passage and writing that book To to have an initiation requires a body exists to be ish initiated into, right? Because it's sort of trying to do formation, education formation is the ni initiation into something. Trying to give them this rigor of formation without brotherhood on the other side of it is like having boot camp without an army. It's like, well, why'd we do that? And for the men themselves, Adam, that that yeah, we so for fraternists is a we we say we we buck the trend of the schools. This is where we the the where I think the educational system has also made an error, which is you essentially enter kindergarten And then stay with that class of people until college. Like you your entire worldview is primarily shaped with this class. Like you enter kin it's like I call it the kindergarten of all your formation, which is hugely unnatural. And this is where the homeschool actually offers a benefit that true education should be multi-generational. Because one way you make a boy instead of because your choices are you make a boy into a man or you let him become a teenager. And a teenager in that modern sense is somebody who is not responsible for For anyone under him and not responsive to anyone above him, right? So he's he's just with his kindergarten class. They can just now get cigarettes purchased for them by their buddy, right? It's it's totally immature. It's it's it's cosplaying adulthood, it's ridiculous. and the key, the thing to break them out of that is that multi-generational brotherhood amongst men. So that's what we we try to say so hard. When you're starting a fraternist chapter, please God. Jason M. Craig (56:52.351) Do not become a bunch of men coordinating a boys youth group. That's gay. Don't do that. What you need to have is a brotherhood amongst yourselves, right? That you're bringing those those men into. And if you don't have that, then just shut down because that's what you're doing. So those we we created and fraternity something called the Ways of the Fathers. It's just a six week study. We kinda had homeschooling and and dads in mind when we when we put it together. And it's basically like look, you guys can do this. If one of you knows how to change brakes Do you know how great it is to learn how to change brakes? Right. That's gonna and that gives him initiation. That gives him fraternity with other men. And if you don't know how to do it, Dad, it's okay. Bob does, right? Let Bob do it. Now he's got a skill that's actionable. He's got competence and confidence. And when he if if he's smart, he'll be the neighborhood guy that goes and change brake pads for cheaper than mechanic down the road, and he can make some money. So anyway, you y'all's that does not get discussed. at all that perhaps one of the most important things for the completion of a man in the homeschool world is not the mom co-op, maybe not even the dad co-op, because that's still the dads running the sort of a school. I think it's actually the dads have a have a life. Have a l if you have a bunch of guys in your backyard every every week on a Wednesday to smoke and drink and talk and laugh, you know who's gonna want to be there? Your son. So you're not gonna have he's gonna be so when the men have brotherhood, the boys beg to come to be a part of it. That they want to be there. Adam Taylor (58:23.726) Yes. Huh? Absolutely. If could I could could I sorry, could I just throw out a real quick book recommendation before I don't I I just anybody's listening. My dad got for us when we were young a book called Two Little Savages by Ernest Thompson Seaton and like gave it over to us boys and he would jump in every now and then. My brother broke, made, burnt more stuff that you can think of, but we learned a ton along the way. Patrick Faus (58:28.621) Wha w what so what you're saying what Adam Taylor (58:51.65) And then the other one would be The Common Arts Education by Chris Hall. is fantastic. Just it's just chock full of ideas, right? Like just soup stupid simple ideas to just go do with your voice. So sorry, Patrick, I didn't want to forget those. Patrick Faus (59:04.952) No, no, I I I was just gonna I I I to me this really is the key of I I even think of about my own father and where my father wasn't the most religious pious me, he's a very secular man, but my father understood what it meant to be a good friend to other men. And that itself imprinted on me of what it means to have other manly friends and how that self how that image itself becomes a type of teacher, a type of educational guide. And I think if you can know what it means to have other male friends and actually modeling that to your son, 'cause then you're teaching your son how to actually relate to other men and what that looks like in a just naturally organic, masculine way, that that itself is significant of of how it trains and teaches your son. Jason M. Craig (59:50.901) Wow. Well, well I'm I'm delighted this conversation has gone in this direction because I think when we started from the title there can be a tension what the mom is gonna hear is another reason why I'm I'm gonna blame myself for now I'm great, now I'm emasculating my son. We've identified that it is there is the potential of that happening. We also now this could also be fearful, like great, now my wife's gonna get something else to nag me about or that I have to pay for. from the dad's perspective. But no, it's actually and I I agree with all of you, man, and I I'm glad to share a friendship with you over the years too, that our friendship and brotherhood with men is actually the best thing that we can do for our for our son's sake. So that that's a if that's not hap if anyone listened to the whole thing and you wanted some some happy advice at the end, come on, we just told you to throw a party. and if anybody does, I'm just gonna plug it because this is this is what we do. If if you want to band together with men and have a form a framework for that fraternity but still have the the freedom to be who you are locally and to not be controlled but particularized, we would love to have you as members of of fraternists and get get the magazine and get the tools that we use for for building virtue and getting outside Adam Patrick Thomas, I can't believe how good this has been. Thank you so much for your time and your wisdom and for for everything you do. maybe we need to keep in touch and just plan on making this a a regular thing. Thomas (01:01:21.21) That sounds great, Jason. Thank you. Adam Taylor (01:01:22.424) I'd love that. Thank you, Jason. Thank Patrick and Thomas. Patrick Faus (01:01:24.142) Thank you. Thank you guys. Jason M. Craig (01:01:29.066) All right. I don't know if he said at the beginning, but you need to keep your windows open while it uploads if you don't know how that works. Thomas (01:01:34.972) Yeah.