Latest / Brandon Fogal Evolution / #195 - Tucker Carlson vs Michael Knowles | Protestant vs Catholic Salvation Debate

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#195 - Tucker Carlson vs Michael Knowles | Protestant vs Catholic Salvation Debate · Brandon Fogal Evolution

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  Tucker Carlson and Michael Knowles sat down together, had a lengthy conversation,
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  and they got into Catholics versus Protestantism, and Tucker represents the
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  Catholic viewpoint and Michael represents the Catholic viewpoint.
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  Are we going to solve this in a day or in a conversation? I think both of them
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  made some good points, but I wanted to take a look at this because it gets to the heart of it,
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  of the salvational issue, but I wanted to start off with, here's
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  tucker bringing up the exclusivity of christianity
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  and michael takes it in a little bit different direction and
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  almost opens the gate is salvation available for
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  everyone even outside of christ let's take
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  a look at this the at the core of christianity is a claim of exclusivity every
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  human being every human being on earth reaches god only through jesus yes period
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  yeah doesn't matter like nothing else matters that's it that that's the one
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  that's your ticket you can't board the train without it.
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  Did that change? No. Okay. The answer is no. Some of the confusion of this is
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  there's quite a bit of confusion about that.
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  Part of the confusion is there's the claim in Latin, extra ecclesiam nulla salus.
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  There's no salvation outside of the church.
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  The church does not change her view on that. However, people are always asked
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  this question, you know, what about my, you know, Protestant grandpa or my,
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  I don't know, my atheist dad or my Jewish or my Hindu or my Muslim or my whatever.
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  One of these is not like the others, but that's my view. The Protestants. Yeah, I would say, yes.
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  No, but if you take a really rigorous exclusive claim here, you say,
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  no, sorry, you're all, you know, you're all totally without any hope.
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  And I guess what the council clarifies is that, you know, we pray for these
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  people. There is no salvation outside of Christ.
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  There is no salvation outside of the church. Salvation subsists within the church.
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  However, it allows for some, as a pastoral matter, some greater dialogue in
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  this modern world. Wait, what's the difference?
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  Okay, so right there, the Protestant view and the Catholic view,
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  there has been a clash for the last 500 years.
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  At the end of the day, it's who is in Christ and who is not.
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  And what gets you into there as opposed to any other religion is,
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  because we are judged on works in a sense, But it's based on none of us are
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  going to make it to heaven by the things that we do.
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  None of us is going to do enough good ever to make it into the pearly gates.
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  So we are based on works in a sense that Jesus's work has to be the final thing
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  that can get us across the finish line. He has to be the ones to do it.
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  Now, and I've heard like a number of different people out there view Christianity
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  and they see it as it is exclusive, which it is by nature, very exclusive.
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  But even like C.S. Lewis, he had the viewpoint that people like the Muslims
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  that are out there, people that are praying to a God, an idol,
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  they are unwittingly praying and worshiping the true God.
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  They're just coming at it at a different angle.
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  I mean, if we take this all the way back to, I mean, before we had the Bible,
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  I mean, I'm talking early, early history, Abraham, Noah, and all the patriarchs
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  in the Bible, they didn't have it.
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  They didn't have scripture written down like we do today. They didn't have full revelation.
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  We think that they were reaching out to God, they were doing the right thing.
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  Rather, God reached out to them and grabbed them.
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  God reached out to Abraham when he was worshiping false idols.
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  He was a pagan, just like everybody else.
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  So salvation is God's work beginning to end.
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  So how you get in there is, now they're talking about Vatican councils that
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  have been had recently, pretty recently in the last century that kind of opened
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  up this gates because the Roman Catholic Church were just coming out of World War II.
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  They're having to deal with the Jewish situation and recognizing that the Jews
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  have an election and a calling that didn't just.
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  Disintegrate when the church came along. So they had to recognize God's election
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  and calling are irrevocable, as it says in the book of Romans.
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  Where we stand on the Protestant view and the Catholic view,
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  to be honest, I wouldn't call myself either one of them.
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  And I don't know about you. I know people, they're tied to this thing that we
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  have manufactured and artificially created ourselves.
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  We have made these drawing lines.
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  We have said, oh, you're a part of this church. You're a part of that church.
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  You're a part of this church. You're a part of that church.
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  But even the Catholics, you have to get very specific and say Roman Catholic,
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  because even in there, there's disagreement within their church, within their church.
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  And I think these are things that Satan has used to divide the people of God,
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  that we are biting each other and devouring each other over issues that we,
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  I don't even think we know the issues anymore.
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  We don't even, we're coming to these things. We haven't even really actually dived into the text.
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  What scripture says, if we're dividing over things that I think do not make
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  sense, that do not matter, would not have mattered to Christ and to the apostles.
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  We're dividing over these things and we're just making these things and assigning
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  other people to hell and saying, because you're not a part of my church,
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  you're going to hell. You're not really going to make it.
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  But what Michael does, and the Catholics do, and I would even say everyone does
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  to an extent, we want to think that everybody is all feeling out for God and
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  reaching out to God in their own way, and they'll get there somehow. And in a sense.
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  If God is the one, I think we are all on the same level field.
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  We are on the same playing field.
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  There's no one better in a better spot than somebody else. Because at the end
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  of the day, God has to change your heart.
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  You could be going to church seven days a week, you know, twice on Sunday, and it doesn't matter.
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  You could be sitting in a pew and still on your way to hell,
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  as opposed to somebody that is out in the jungle that's never heard of Christ.
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  At the end of the day, God is the one who has to change that person's heart.
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  Whoever it is. God is the one who has to awaken someone.
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  And you can find Christ in the stars. You can find Christ wherever you're at,
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  because you think Abraham knew about the cross?
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  I mean, you think Abraham knew about everything that we know about the Messiah, about Jesus?
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  He didn't know half of that as much as we do today.
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  But he was still, because he looked forward, He trusted in the true and living
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  God, and the creation just exclaims that there's a God out there that made us.
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  Our own moral nature that we have, we know we're going to be judged because
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  we feel bad about the things that we know we do is wrong.
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  But I want to continue just a little bit further of what they're talking about,
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  because they really get into this pretty heavily. It's between Jesus and the church.
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  Well, Christ founds the church, and Christ is the bridegroom,
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  and the church is the bride.
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  So Catholics, the official church position is, unless you're a member of the
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  church you don't go to heaven well.
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  This is something that would be
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  sort of clarified at the Second Vatican Council, or maybe not clarified.
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  Maybe it just leads to more ecumenical dialogue or something like that.
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  I love Catholicism. I do actually like it a lot.
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  I'm so drawn to it because I love the, like he says, the sacramental nature
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  of it, the ritualistic, and you kind of know things, what's right and wrong.
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  Everything's laid out for you very specifically. And I'm a person that likes
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  it. Some people gravitate towards that.
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  Some people don't. in my heart of hearts, I would want to become a Catholic.
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  I've all, and I've said that many times in my life, but I don't agree with everything
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  about them. I don't agree with all the positions.
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  And even if I became a Catholic, I wouldn't think I'm no longer a part of Christ.
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  You know, I think there's Christians that are Roman Catholics.
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  There are Christians that are Orthodox and Protestants, Messianic.
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  There are, of all the denominations, the millions out there, God knows his people.
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  So that doesn't change. I believe there's Mormons that are true believers,
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  that are true Christians, but once they understand the falsehoods of Mormonism,
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  they will come out of it, but they might be unwittingly, they might be calling
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  out to Jesus because they hear Jesus's name in Mormonism over and over,
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  and they reach out to him because he's there, whether you know it or not,
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  and they might be really saved.
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  But then Mormonism, it's so deceitful because it's so close to the truth, but yet so far away.
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  The closer a counterfeit is, the harder it is to distinguish,
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  but it still doesn't make it better. That religion doesn't make it better.
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  Good intentions don't make it better. But both of their viewpoints and when
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  they were getting into this, it was very interesting because,
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  like I said, I'm not Catholic. I wouldn't even claim myself as a Protestant
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  because I don't even really agree with that.
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  I don't agree with anything of all of them. I think all these things that we're
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  just making people think, and their faith becomes, well...
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  My faith is in this particular church, as opposed to your faith is in Jesus, in Christ, in the Bible.
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  You know, I think what the Catholics have right is they have,
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  because they are so close to Judaism.
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  They are so close to Judaism and following that and just making it like almost
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  the Gentile identical version of Judaism, because like they have priests,
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  they created things out of that.
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  And there's so much that is like that, but it's divorced itself from the Jewish nation. It has.
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  It has made itself a replacement theology. So it has went off in a wrong direction.
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  I won't say like terrible, but it's Gentiles doing the best they can and figuring it out.
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  But we have severed ourselves from the Jewish people.
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  They severed themselves from us because they're not, for the majority, embracing Jesus.
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  But there's so much there. There's so much going on.
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  At the end of the day, you reach out to Christ, you know, a particular church isn't going to save you.
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  Being baptized isn't going to necessarily save you.
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  Jesus saves you. Jesus is the one who saves you, you know?
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  So, all right, we'll leave it at that. There's so much more that could go into,
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  but I would love to hear your thoughts, whether you are a Catholic,
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  whether you're a Protestant, if you are fiercely tied to that,
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  and that's your identity, I would
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  say it's, it's the same thing as what's happened in the early church.
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  Paul had to say, there's people that are saying, I'm a, I'm of Apollos. I'm of Cephas.
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  I'm of Christ, you know, and there was division happening even in that, that early on.
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  And I think that's the same thing that's just been happening and that's unfolded the last 2000 years.
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  All right. Follow me on X and Instagram at Brandon Fogle. Have a great day.