Latest / Booked On Rock with Eric Senich / [EP 409] Paul McCartney & Wings: Why 'London Town' Deserves Another Listen with Luca Perasi

Transcript

[EP 409] Paul McCartney & Wings: Why 'London Town' Deserves Another Listen with Luca Perasi · Booked On Rock with Eric Senich

• 0:00
  Speaker 1: The real issue was this personality clashes within the band.
• 0:05
  Speaker 1: That was the issue. But creatively speaking or arrangement-wise and stuff,
• 0:09
  Speaker 1: it's an album which, for me, I love Wings at
• 0:12
  Speaker 1: Speed of Sound, but if I had to choose between
• 0:15
  Speaker 1: Wings at Speed of Sound and London Town, I would
• 0:18
  Speaker 1: choose London Town. We're totally booked. Rock and roll! Wow!
• 0:23
  Speaker 1: I think I'll leave you to your reading. Little Hans
• 0:25
  Speaker 1: says it's time to rock and roll.
• 0:27
  Speaker 2: Rock and roll! We are totally booked. Welcome back to
• 0:35
  Speaker 2: Booked on Rock. Conversations with authors, musicians, and insiders revealing
• 0:39
  Speaker 2: the stories behind classic rock's greatest songs, albums, and artists.
• 0:43
  Speaker 2: And if you enjoy the show and you'd like to
• 0:45
  Speaker 2: support it, you can sign up for the Booked on
• 0:47
  Speaker 2: Rock Backstage Pass on Patreon.com. It's just $ 5 a month.
• 0:50
  Speaker 2: You'll get every episode commercial free. And before everyone else,
• 0:54
  Speaker 2: you can use the link in the show notes or
• 0:55
  Speaker 2: visit bookdownrock.com. Now on to the show. Released in 1978
• 1:01
  Speaker 2: as punk and disco reshaped popular music, Wings, London Town
• 1:06
  Speaker 2: found Paul McCartney embracing folk, synthesizers, sound effects, and the
• 1:11
  Speaker 2: unusual experience of recording aboard a boat in the Virgin Islands.
• 1:15
  Speaker 2: Luca Perassi's Wings, London Town, the story of an adventurous album,
• 1:19
  Speaker 2: explores the complicated circumstances, creative experimentation, and eccentric brilliance behind
• 1:25
  Speaker 2: one of Wings' most atmospheric and enduring records. Welcome back, Luca.
• 1:30
  Speaker 2: Great to see you again.
• 1:31
  Speaker 1: Thanks, Eric, for the invitation and for this introduction to
• 1:37
  Speaker 1: the album, which I... have to say it's my favorite
• 1:42
  Speaker 1: Wings album. So I have to admit it. I mean,
• 1:47
  Speaker 1: not because it's necessarily the best, but for the atmosphere.
• 1:52
  Speaker 1: As you were saying, it's the most atmospheric album. To me,
• 1:56
  Speaker 1: it is, partly because of the circumstances of its recording.
• 2:01
  Speaker 1: But that's what I like most of the album. I mean,
• 2:05
  Speaker 1: the feel, the mood... it's perfect for a sunny day,
• 2:10
  Speaker 1: but also I've experienced, um, uh, listening to the album, uh,
• 2:17
  Speaker 1: during a rainy day. And I think it's perfect also
• 2:20
  Speaker 1: for this kind of, uh, uh, of things. So, yeah, that's, uh,
• 2:27
  Speaker 1: that's really, uh, a good album, not consistent, but, uh,
• 2:32
  Speaker 1: you can find, uh, Lots of interesting things, both in
• 2:36
  Speaker 1: terms of arrangement, compositions, instrumentation. So there's lots to discuss.
• 2:44
  Speaker 2: And before we get into the songs, let's set it
• 2:46
  Speaker 2: up with where the band is at at the time
• 2:49
  Speaker 2: they start recording this. This is after the Wings Over
• 2:51
  Speaker 2: America tour. And Wings finally appeared to be a stable,
• 2:55
  Speaker 2: unified band. Had that stability always been more fragile than
• 3:00
  Speaker 2: it looked?
• 3:01
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, the Wings of America tour, as we know,
• 3:04
  Speaker 1: was a big tour, great success. I mean, the band
• 3:09
  Speaker 1: at its peak, everybody played great. Paul sang in an
• 3:14
  Speaker 1: incredible way. He was in perfect shape at the time.
• 3:18
  Speaker 1: So then after that, it came the album, Wings of America,
• 3:22
  Speaker 1: the triple LP, another smash success. And then, I mean,
• 3:28
  Speaker 1: things changed a bit because... Linda got pregnant and Wings
• 3:33
  Speaker 1: got back into the studio. And to people like Danny
• 3:38
  Speaker 1: Lane and Jim McCulloch, being again in the studio wasn't
• 3:44
  Speaker 1: exactly the best thing, the preferred thing. They loved to
• 3:50
  Speaker 1: play live, but they were forced to stop for a while.
• 3:57
  Speaker 1: So being back in in the studio wasn't the best
• 4:07
  Speaker 1: thing for the mood of the band, but it was required.
• 4:12
  Speaker 2: They returned to the studio just weeks after that live
• 4:14
  Speaker 2: album reached number one. Was Paul the kind of guy
• 4:17
  Speaker 2: who just wanted to keep things moving? Was he thinking,
• 4:21
  Speaker 2: we got some creative momentum here, let's get right back
• 4:24
  Speaker 2: to recording?
• 4:25
  Speaker 1: Yeah, typically Paul loves to record his demos at the time,
• 4:31
  Speaker 1: at least during summer. So that was the period where he,
• 4:37
  Speaker 1: you know, puts together all of his ideas he had
• 4:44
  Speaker 1: during the year or maybe during a couple of years.
• 4:48
  Speaker 1: And so he got a bunch of songs ready to
• 4:51
  Speaker 1: be recorded and it worked perfectly. with Danny Lane more.
• 4:55
  Speaker 1: In fact, we have five songs on the album out
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  Speaker 1: of 14 that are co-written by Paul and Danny Lane.
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  Speaker 1: I mean, the collaboration was not necessarily the Lennon-McCartney one.
• 5:12
  Speaker 1: I mean, writing together, but Paul said we were helping
• 5:17
  Speaker 1: each other arranging songs. So maybe one of the two
• 5:23
  Speaker 1: had an idea and the other could help a bit.
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  Speaker 1: But anyway, I mean, we know that songwriting and collaborating
• 5:32
  Speaker 1: on songs has different sides, could be developed in any way. So, yeah,
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  Speaker 1: that's basically it. I mean, let's go back into the
• 5:46
  Speaker 1: studio and record these songs. That's as simple as that.
• 5:51
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and let's talk about recording. aboard a boat in
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  Speaker 2: the Virgin Islands, right? That creates a relaxed musical atmosphere,
• 5:58
  Speaker 2: but it also frustrated members who wanted greater creative freedom.
• 6:02
  Speaker 2: Did the experience bring wings together artistically or did it
• 6:07
  Speaker 2: eventually just push them apart?
• 6:09
  Speaker 1: Well, I mean, it's hard to say, but they started
• 6:13
  Speaker 1: recording in Abbey Road, which was the, you know, I mean,
• 6:17
  Speaker 1: the greatest, one of the greatest studios in the world,
• 6:20
  Speaker 1: but To some extent, they were also a bit bored.
• 6:23
  Speaker 1: You know, the same environment, familiar environment. So at some point,
• 6:30
  Speaker 1: someone suggested, why don't we go in some other strange place?
• 6:35
  Speaker 1: And I think Geoff Emerick recalled his experience with America.
• 6:40
  Speaker 1: And they were recording in Hawaii somewhere. And so they said, well,
• 6:47
  Speaker 1: good idea. Can we hire boats and boats? go somewhere
• 6:54
  Speaker 1: in a distant place to record. And they did it.
• 6:57
  Speaker 1: I mean, they hired four or five boats. One of
• 7:02
  Speaker 1: them was dedicated to the recordings.
• 7:06
  Speaker 2: Is that the Fair Carol? Is that the one?
• 7:08
  Speaker 1: The Fair Carol was that. And so they installed all
• 7:13
  Speaker 1: the machines. It was not easy. There's an interview in
• 7:16
  Speaker 1: the book I had with engineer Tom Anderson. And he
• 7:20
  Speaker 1: goes in great detail about the equipment, the issues that
• 7:24
  Speaker 1: they had, because they got big equipment from studio, so
• 7:33
  Speaker 1: it was not improvised. But they tried recording while moving,
• 7:39
  Speaker 1: while the boat was moving. But in the end, they
• 7:44
  Speaker 1: preferred to record with the boat not moving, still. Standing still.
• 7:51
  Speaker 1: And yeah, there was a nice move. I think 20 days,
• 7:58
  Speaker 1: 25 days, something like that. The good thing was, well,
• 8:03
  Speaker 1: the good and bad thing, let me express this concept.
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  Speaker 1: I mean, they were completely isolated. So after a while,
• 8:14
  Speaker 1: it becomes difficult because Paul had Linda and his children.
• 8:19
  Speaker 1: but the other members of the band did not have
• 8:23
  Speaker 1: their girlfriends or wives there. So, you understand, after a while,
• 8:31
  Speaker 1: the band becomes focused on the music, very concentrated. There
• 8:36
  Speaker 1: were nice distractions like taking sun baths or... diving into
• 8:44
  Speaker 1: into the water all these kind of things so i
• 8:47
  Speaker 1: think it benefited the album but you can do it
• 8:51
  Speaker 1: for yeah three weeks is is enough.
• 8:55
  Speaker 2: There was a story in the book about on the
• 8:57
  Speaker 2: track with a little luck which is the biggest hit
• 8:59
  Speaker 2: from the album where paul ends up playing the drums
• 9:03
  Speaker 2: himself joe english struggled to find the drum part that
• 9:05
  Speaker 2: paul wanted is that an example of the problems developing
• 9:10
  Speaker 2: within Wings or was that always Paul's thing? Was he
• 9:13
  Speaker 2: just simply a perfectionist?
• 9:15
  Speaker 1: Yeah, he's a perfectionist. I mean, I think when you
• 9:21
  Speaker 1: work with McCartney, you got to be accustomed to this
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  Speaker 1: kind of things. I mean, and in the end, he
• 9:28
  Speaker 1: showed Joe what he wanted on the track. So you
• 9:33
  Speaker 1: got to be available and say, okay, I'm a drummer,
• 9:36
  Speaker 1: but if Paul McCartney wants this thing, I'd better listen
• 9:41
  Speaker 1: to his suggestion. But it was part of Wings. I mean,
• 9:47
  Speaker 1: Wings was not a band where you have a bass player,
• 9:51
  Speaker 1: a keyboard player, two guitars, and drums. You know, you're
• 9:55
  Speaker 1: rolling in wings. Let's take Danny Lane, for example. You
• 10:00
  Speaker 1: got to be available on playing bass because Paul was
• 10:04
  Speaker 1: maybe playing piano or guitar. So.
• 10:08
  Speaker 2: So it could change at any time based on what
• 10:10
  Speaker 2: the song... Yeah.
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  Speaker 1: Jim McCullough, you've got a great lead guitarist. I mean,
• 10:15
  Speaker 1: very rocky. He could play lots of acoustics as well,
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  Speaker 1: but sometimes it didn't play at all on this album.
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  Speaker 1: And even before it happens that there's no requirements for
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  Speaker 1: you because maybe McCartney has envisioned the arrangement in a
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  Speaker 1: different way. So if there's no guitar needed, you can
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  Speaker 1: be in the control room and just wait. Yeah.
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  Speaker 2: You know, what's cool with Paul is there are times
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  Speaker 2: when we've talked about albums where, He's really having a
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  Speaker 2: lot of fun in the studio with the technical aspects
• 10:52
  Speaker 2: and the advancements. But at the same time, if he
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  Speaker 2: feels like a song needs more feel than technical perfection,
• 11:00
  Speaker 2: he'll do it like on I'm Carrying. He and Denny
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  Speaker 2: recorded the vocals outdoors and Paul wanted to preserve the
• 11:07
  Speaker 2: details like the finger squeaks that you hear on there.
• 11:10
  Speaker 2: That's really cool. That just shows you that that's Paul's
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  Speaker 2: songwriting approach. It could be really whatever. So like I said,
• 11:16
  Speaker 2: they got to be ready to adjust with whatever he
• 11:19
  Speaker 2: sees as the final creation of a song.
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  Speaker 1: I've always found fascinating the fact that Paul loves to
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  Speaker 1: record outdoors sometimes because of the feel. That's it. I mean,
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  Speaker 1: why he had to record his guitar on the back
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  Speaker 1: of the boat for I'm carrying outside because it just
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  Speaker 1: wanted to do it. And just for, for change, just
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  Speaker 1: because the performance could be better or could be more
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  Speaker 1: inspired or, you know, let's try and see what happens.
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  Speaker 1: And the squeaking, I mean, it was, the engineers were
• 12:01
  Speaker 1: kind of worried about the squeaking because the guitar, well, the, yeah,
• 12:07
  Speaker 1: the guitar was, was quite new. So, you know, um,
• 12:14
  Speaker 1: They were worried about having too much noise. But Paul,
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  Speaker 1: in the end, said, well, it's just music, lads, so
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  Speaker 1: don't worry about it. I mean, for me, it's a
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  Speaker 1: nice effect. So let's keep it.
• 12:28
  Speaker 2: There was enough material for a double album, including songs
• 12:32
  Speaker 2: that resurfaced years later. Would a double album have been better?
• 12:36
  Speaker 2: Would it have revealed a clearer artistic vision? Or would
• 12:39
  Speaker 2: it have diluted it? Did he make the right call?
• 12:42
  Speaker 1: No, I think a single album is always better. I mean,
• 12:46
  Speaker 1: the double albums in rock history are satisfying a few.
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  Speaker 1: And you've got to accept when it's a double album
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  Speaker 1: that it's not consistent. Well, London Town is around 50
• 13:03
  Speaker 1: minutes of music, which for an LP, it's quite a
• 13:08
  Speaker 1: long LP. and 14 songs. So they got more material,
• 13:15
  Speaker 1: but I don't think they recorded necessarily this extra material
• 13:21
  Speaker 1: during the period. There were some demos and I mean,
• 13:26
  Speaker 1: the most popular unreleased songs from this period is Wardspout,
• 13:33
  Speaker 1: which is a great melody, a great pop track, could
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  Speaker 1: have been a nice follow up to Wither the Luck.
• 13:41
  Speaker 1: I mean, it's a pop song that comes to Paul
• 13:47
  Speaker 1: in his dreams, let me say. But I mean, I
• 13:51
  Speaker 1: love the album as it is, and I'm always keen
• 13:54
  Speaker 1: on thinking less is more. So 14 songs. And there's
• 14:01
  Speaker 1: a couple which are not necessarily great songs, As I said,
• 14:06
  Speaker 1: they work in the context, but better having a single album.
• 14:10
  Speaker 1: And after having a triple with Wings of America, a
• 14:14
  Speaker 1: double album in the context of the market of 1978
• 14:19
  Speaker 1: could have been a risky move.
• 14:22
  Speaker 2: Mull of Kintyre, that's one. That was a demo Paul
• 14:24
  Speaker 2: had from years before. And you talked about he and
• 14:26
  Speaker 2: Denny and writing songs together. He helped complete that one.
• 14:31
  Speaker 2: What did he bring to that song, musically and lyrically?
• 14:33
  Speaker 2: I think he also... contributed some lyrics to.
• 14:36
  Speaker 1: It lyrics yeah because if you if you listen to
• 14:41
  Speaker 1: Paul's original demo which is a piano demo and is
• 14:47
  Speaker 1: from 1973 well basically the melody is very similar to
• 14:54
  Speaker 1: the final version so you got the you got a
• 14:57
  Speaker 1: verse you got a chorus but then I mean the
• 15:02
  Speaker 1: lyrics are were certainly a contribution by Danny. And also
• 15:07
  Speaker 1: the folk feel to it. Danny said he suggested the bagpipes,
• 15:12
  Speaker 1: which is the most distinctive element to the song. I mean,
• 15:17
  Speaker 1: without bagpipes, there's no Moll of Kintyre. I mean, it's Scottish,
• 15:23
  Speaker 1: and you've got to have bagpipes. And that was a
• 15:27
  Speaker 1: suggestion by Danny. So a very important suggestion. So this
• 15:30
  Speaker 1: kind of interchange is what I was trying to explain
• 15:34
  Speaker 1: before when it comes to songwriting and arranging and stuff.
• 15:39
  Speaker 2: And a song that didn't end up on the album.
• 15:41
  Speaker 2: It's a song that's a standalone single, and that's very Paul.
• 15:44
  Speaker 2: We've talked about that before. He liked to have a
• 15:46
  Speaker 2: song to release separately from the album, something that goes
• 15:49
  Speaker 2: back to his Beatles days, right?
• 15:50
  Speaker 1: Yeah. I mean, he has talked about this many times,
• 15:55
  Speaker 1: and so very typical of him. I think at some
• 16:00
  Speaker 1: point he kind of regretted not having mode of Kintyre on, uh,
• 16:05
  Speaker 1: on London town. But, uh, I think it, it's a different, uh, song.
• 16:12
  Speaker 1: It's a different thing. Uh, better leave it as a,
• 16:16
  Speaker 1: as a single in my, in my opinion, it's, it's
• 16:20
  Speaker 1: perfect as it is. Although I understand that if you
• 16:24
  Speaker 1: take out two songs, uh, from the track list and, uh,
• 16:28
  Speaker 1: just throw in, World of Kintyre and Girls' School. That
• 16:34
  Speaker 1: could change the overall assessment of the album.
• 16:39
  Speaker 2: Danny was the one, according to the book, that believed
• 16:41
  Speaker 2: it worked better as a single. He thought that was
• 16:43
  Speaker 2: the right call. Luca Prasi, the author of Wings, London Town,
• 16:47
  Speaker 2: the story of an adventurous album. The details of the
• 16:51
  Speaker 2: Campbelltown incident are still unclear. It appears to have been
• 16:55
  Speaker 2: the final breaking point for Jimmy McCulloch, What can we
• 16:58
  Speaker 2: establish about that night? What was Jimmy's departure really about?
• 17:04
  Speaker 2: Was it that, something deeper? Was it building up to that?
• 17:07
  Speaker 1: I mean, the incident itself, probably it was something that
• 17:12
  Speaker 1: happened sometime before as well, because we know that Jimmy
• 17:20
  Speaker 1: loved to drink. He was a bit drunk that evening.
• 17:26
  Speaker 1: And so, I mean... when you're drunk, obviously not good
• 17:32
  Speaker 1: things come out of this. And it was a bit
• 17:37
  Speaker 1: frustrated for not being involved so much. I mean, in
• 17:43
  Speaker 1: the whole recording and in the recording of Mall of Quintana,
• 17:48
  Speaker 1: because there's no Jimmy McCulloch involved. So we can just
• 17:54
  Speaker 1: guess that he wasn't that happy. I mean, Tom Anderson,
• 18:01
  Speaker 1: the engineer I've interviewed, was clear in telling me that
• 18:05
  Speaker 1: Paul kind of instructed Jimmy on his guitar parts before
• 18:12
  Speaker 1: the recording sessions in the Virgin Islands. So again, Paul,
• 18:17
  Speaker 1: the perfectionist, you've got a great guitar player who doesn't
• 18:22
  Speaker 1: need to be instructed necessarily, but you've got certain ideas
• 18:28
  Speaker 1: of about your guitar lines and stuff. That's the first thing.
• 18:34
  Speaker 1: Then some of the tracks Jimmy didn't play. I mean,
• 18:39
  Speaker 1: with a little luck, we mentioned there's no Jimmy involved.
• 18:42
  Speaker 1: I'm caring. It's just Paul on acoustic guitar. So I mean,
• 18:46
  Speaker 1: the kind of material that Paul was offering, not necessarily
• 18:53
  Speaker 1: included guitars. And Mall of Kintyre was another track. So
• 18:57
  Speaker 1: without electric guitar, without any involvement by Jimmy. So it
• 19:03
  Speaker 1: was a bit frustrated. And then, you know, with the
• 19:06
  Speaker 1: help of some scotches, maybe, you know, there was a fight.
• 19:13
  Speaker 1: And in the end, the incident was not addressed immediately.
• 19:18
  Speaker 1: But after more or less one month, they just put
• 19:31
  Speaker 1: out a statement and say, okay, I'm leaving because of
• 19:37
  Speaker 1: the usual politics. But behind the scenes, there was something bigger.
• 19:47
  Speaker 1: And let's not forget that Jimmy was also planning having
• 19:54
  Speaker 1: his own career with his own band. So the White Line.
• 19:58
  Speaker 1: So he was just beginning to think about his own material.
• 20:04
  Speaker 1: So it's a combination of different things.
• 20:06
  Speaker 2: They were recording at a barn and he came back
• 20:08
  Speaker 2: and kind of, Louis Stack.
• 20:11
  Speaker 1: And yeah this has been discussed also in the past
• 20:17
  Speaker 1: that then someone say oh it's not true that he
• 20:22
  Speaker 1: threatened Paul I mean this kind of things verge a
• 20:27
  Speaker 1: bit into gossip and it's not my goal necessarily but
• 20:33
  Speaker 1: definitely something happened because on the 8th of September there
• 20:38
  Speaker 1: was this statement from Paul and from Jimmy. So, I mean,
• 20:45
  Speaker 1: the time was right.
• 20:49
  Speaker 2: The other departure was Joe English. He left soon afterward. Now, officially,
• 20:52
  Speaker 2: that was because he missed his family in America, but
• 20:55
  Speaker 2: he also expressed some frustration with the music. How much
• 20:58
  Speaker 2: of his departure was personal? How much was it just
• 21:01
  Speaker 2: dissatisfaction with his role?
• 21:03
  Speaker 1: I think mainly he was really missing his family in
• 21:06
  Speaker 1: the United States. And... Well, this criticism about the music was,
• 21:14
  Speaker 1: I mean, happened a bit later. I think there was
• 21:17
  Speaker 1: an interview of him around 1981. So I won't rely
• 21:24
  Speaker 1: on that too much. I understand maybe, you know, being
• 21:28
  Speaker 1: in the, I mean, a rock star is not for everyone.
• 21:33
  Speaker 1: So he saw he was well paid. He saw what
• 21:39
  Speaker 1: it means to be on tour, on a successful tour
• 21:44
  Speaker 1: with one of the biggest bands in the world. And
• 21:47
  Speaker 1: then maybe you just think, well, I don't want to
• 21:50
  Speaker 1: do this for the rest of my life.
• 21:53
  Speaker 2: Yeah, so with Jimmy and Joe gone, Wings goes back
• 21:55
  Speaker 2: to that trio that made Band on the Run. Was
• 21:58
  Speaker 2: that something for Paul? Do you think that was a
• 22:00
  Speaker 2: return to the creative freedom for Paul? Did he prefer that?
• 22:04
  Speaker 2: Or was he looking for other musicians to round out
• 22:08
  Speaker 2: the lineup?
• 22:09
  Speaker 1: Not immediately. I mean, he wasn't in a hurry of
• 22:13
  Speaker 1: doing replacements. So they just decided, okay, we're three. We
• 22:18
  Speaker 1: will finish the album as I did in the past.
• 22:23
  Speaker 1: And you mentioned Band on the Run. So it wasn't
• 22:26
  Speaker 1: a new situation. Then it was a bit frustrating for
• 22:32
  Speaker 1: Paul because it was an up-thin change of lineup. But
• 22:38
  Speaker 1: it took his time. He took his time and said, OK,
• 22:40
  Speaker 1: let's not rush in someone because I don't need a
• 22:45
  Speaker 1: guitarist to finish the album. So I will play the
• 22:49
  Speaker 1: parts myself. And he did it. So creative freedom. Paul
• 22:53
  Speaker 1: McCartney is always creatively free. Sure.
• 22:56
  Speaker 2: He's the guy in charge, ultimately.
• 22:58
  Speaker 1: So, I mean, for him, we can debate about this.
• 23:03
  Speaker 1: I mean, Wings or Paul McCartney and Wings or just
• 23:08
  Speaker 1: Paul McCartney. I mean, I'm not concerned about the fact
• 23:14
  Speaker 1: that Wings was not a band or it was a
• 23:17
  Speaker 1: real band. It was a real band, but with a
• 23:23
  Speaker 1: creative driver, which is Paul McCartney. I mean, 95% of
• 23:31
  Speaker 1: the compositions of the band were Paul's. So creatively, Paul
• 23:38
  Speaker 1: was a driver. And obviously you need a band for recording,
• 23:42
  Speaker 1: you need a band for maybe arrangement input. That's what
• 23:48
  Speaker 1: a band does, so no surprise. But no particular worries
• 23:52
  Speaker 1: for Paul to finish the album as a trio. Obviously
• 23:58
  Speaker 1: the mood worsened a bit, maybe before the end of
• 24:08
  Speaker 1: the recordings. it was quite a long and tremendous process.
• 24:13
  Speaker 1: So there was a bit of, they were a bit
• 24:17
  Speaker 1: bored about all of these happenings. But I think it
• 24:21
  Speaker 1: works in the end. And that's why I call the
• 24:25
  Speaker 1: book the story of an inventor's album, because of the
• 24:28
  Speaker 1: recording environment, because of the fact that these two members left.
• 24:33
  Speaker 1: I mean, it's quite adventurous.
• 24:35
  Speaker 2: The chart success on the album London Town, top five
• 24:40
  Speaker 2: in the UK and the US, With a Little Luck
• 24:43
  Speaker 2: was the number one hit in the US. So it
• 24:45
  Speaker 2: did really well. It failed to repeat the success of
• 24:48
  Speaker 2: the three previous albums, but it did very well. But
• 24:51
  Speaker 2: that leads to the question, where do you stand on
• 24:53
  Speaker 2: its range? I mean, we talked about it's got folk.
• 24:57
  Speaker 2: It's got some polished pop in there. It's got some
• 24:59
  Speaker 2: experimental synthesizers. Some listeners found that inconsistent. Some didn't. thought
• 25:05
  Speaker 2: it was adventurous. Which side of the fence are you
• 25:08
  Speaker 2: on on that one? I think, I think you're a
• 25:10
  Speaker 2: little bit more, you like the adventurous side of Paul.
• 25:13
  Speaker 1: I like this. I like this. I like the experimenting side.
• 25:17
  Speaker 1: I mean, recording on a boat, it's a, it could be,
• 25:22
  Speaker 1: it could be something, I mean, strange to do, but
• 25:28
  Speaker 1: this is exactly what, what the album, uh, feels I
• 25:37
  Speaker 1: mean recorded on a boat they could have every road
• 25:41
  Speaker 1: for them and they decided to change and I think
• 25:46
  Speaker 1: music is feeling mainly so it's all perfection and that's
• 25:53
  Speaker 1: what Paul does very often and I think his 70s
• 25:59
  Speaker 1: album Paul's 70s albums are more adventurous than maybe records
• 26:04
  Speaker 1: that came after. And people love this. The sales that
• 26:11
  Speaker 1: you mentioned, I mean, we're talking about an album about,
• 26:17
  Speaker 1: you know, four or five million copies worldwide. There's no
• 26:21
  Speaker 1: official worldwide sales, but we can guess quite easily based
• 26:26
  Speaker 1: on some certification and stuff. So it's not, it's not a,
• 26:32
  Speaker 1: blockbuster at the time where there were albums with maybe
• 26:38
  Speaker 1: 15 millions and stuff. But I mean, five millions is
• 26:43
  Speaker 1: not too shabby. No. So that is proof that people
• 26:51
  Speaker 1: love this kind of offer.
• 26:53
  Speaker 2: And people have always talked about how nobody writes a
• 26:56
  Speaker 2: melody like Paul, and With a Little Luck is a
• 26:58
  Speaker 2: great example of that. But what's interesting about that one,
• 27:00
  Speaker 2: he's got that long synthesizer passage inside this accessible pop single.
• 27:06
  Speaker 2: What does that tell us about Paul, his experimental instincts, right?
• 27:10
  Speaker 2: This is before McCartney, too.
• 27:12
  Speaker 1: Sure. I mean, obviously what he did... on the McCartney
• 27:16
  Speaker 1: two sessions with all synthesizers and stuff. It's just a fragment,
• 27:21
  Speaker 1: just a fragment of it is present on London Town.
• 27:24
  Speaker 1: But I think the interlude with synthesizer, which is quite
• 27:30
  Speaker 1: long because it's one minute and 30 seconds and the
• 27:34
  Speaker 1: song is almost six minutes. It's interesting. It's interesting that
• 27:38
  Speaker 1: they experimented also with synths on another instrumental cufflink So
• 27:45
  Speaker 1: he was thinking about using synthesizer in a different way.
• 27:50
  Speaker 1: He was just injecting a modern touch into his arrangements.
• 27:58
  Speaker 1: And I loved also the kind of symphonic feel to
• 28:06
  Speaker 1: this interlude of Withered in Luck because you got at
• 28:11
  Speaker 1: least three parts of synthesizer overlapping. And so you can
• 28:16
  Speaker 1: feel what he's thinking. He's thinking about different lines, superimposing
• 28:23
  Speaker 1: on top of each other. It has definitely a symphonic
• 28:29
  Speaker 1: kind of feel. And you will explore this on a
• 28:32
  Speaker 1: track on McCartney too, which is called Summer's Day Song.
• 28:36
  Speaker 1: And it reminds me a little bit of that track.
• 28:42
  Speaker 2: Yeah, that gives me, both sides of the Paul I love.
• 28:45
  Speaker 2: So it's the pop side, which I love. It's the
• 28:47
  Speaker 2: experimental side and you put them together. And that's why
• 28:50
  Speaker 2: I love listening to the whole thing. And I would
• 28:52
  Speaker 2: imagine radio stations probably cut out that long part of
• 28:56
  Speaker 2: the middle, you know, but I would rather hear the
• 28:58
  Speaker 2: whole thing. Give me the whole thing.
• 29:00
  Speaker 1: There was an edit for radio stations prepared, which is
• 29:04
  Speaker 1: three minutes and 15, something like that. But to me,
• 29:07
  Speaker 1: it's less fascinating, but I understand why, why they did
• 29:11
  Speaker 1: it because the melody and the, the, the, the poppy
• 29:15
  Speaker 1: side comes out better. But the full version, it's another thing.
• 29:21
  Speaker 2: What do you think of the songs Famous Groupies or
• 29:24
  Speaker 2: Morse Moose and The Grey Goose? I mean, these are funny,
• 29:26
  Speaker 2: they're sinister, they're deliberately strange. I mean, these are essential
• 29:30
  Speaker 2: to the album's identity, right? I mean, as again, we're
• 29:33
  Speaker 2: going back to the you never know what to expect
• 29:35
  Speaker 2: with each track.
• 29:36
  Speaker 1: I could not imagine London Town without them. famous groupies
• 29:41
  Speaker 1: and morse moves and the greg who's i mean do
• 29:44
  Speaker 1: very eccentric eccentric tracks but uh yeah essential to the
• 29:49
  Speaker 1: field that feel i was uh i was talking about
• 29:53
  Speaker 1: before i mean if you love this kind of songs
• 29:57
  Speaker 1: this kind of uh let me say, poetry, this kind
• 30:02
  Speaker 1: of lyrics, this kind of stories, very sinister, as I say,
• 30:12
  Speaker 1: about the feel I have for the album. Then London
• 30:18
  Speaker 1: Town is an unmissable record within Paul's discography. That's it.
• 30:28
  Speaker 2: And this came out during the vinyl era. So more
• 30:31
  Speaker 2: than 51 minutes, it's pushing the physical limits of vinyl.
• 30:34
  Speaker 2: You had to limit that. Is there a song that
• 30:36
  Speaker 2: you would remove if you were in that position where
• 30:38
  Speaker 2: you had to remove one song?
• 30:41
  Speaker 1: One song. One song. Difficult. Maybe. Well, also harmonically is genial.
• 30:51
  Speaker 1: I mean, it's great. maybe girlfriend, at times, I'm not
• 31:03
  Speaker 1: always in the mood for girlfriend. And it's four minutes
• 31:08
  Speaker 1: and 40 seconds, something like that. I mean, but there's
• 31:12
  Speaker 1: a couple of parts on girlfriend, which I love so much,
• 31:18
  Speaker 1: especially the instrumental interlude. So it would be not easy.
• 31:23
  Speaker 1: Or maybe something less intriguing harmonically. Are That Enough, which
• 31:35
  Speaker 1: is quite a rock and roll, standard rock and roll.
• 31:40
  Speaker 1: Maybe that, if you just force me to choose maybe
• 31:47
  Speaker 1: one of these two. But I mean, it's very difficult,
• 31:50
  Speaker 1: because then after a while, you are accustomed to the
• 31:54
  Speaker 1: album as it is. Just thinking about the album without
• 31:58
  Speaker 1: one track, it's kind of a difficult exercise. But I
• 32:02
  Speaker 1: don't know, maybe I've had enough. Let me pick up.
• 32:05
  Speaker 1: I've had enough.
• 32:07
  Speaker 2: Well, that's interesting because that was the second single. The
• 32:09
  Speaker 2: three singles, With Little Luck, I've Had Enough, and London Town.
• 32:12
  Speaker 2: After With Little Luck, the album kind of faded. It
• 32:16
  Speaker 2: sold around 4 million copies, but then the momentum faded
• 32:19
  Speaker 2: after With Little Luck. Was it the choice of singles?
• 32:22
  Speaker 1: Well, London Town is not necessarily an album made of
• 32:27
  Speaker 1: a single material. I don't know. Well, London Town is
• 32:32
  Speaker 1: my favorite song on the album, but I don't think
• 32:35
  Speaker 1: it's an incredible song in terms of structure and chords, harmonies.
• 32:44
  Speaker 1: The way it's built, it's incredible. But I don't think
• 32:48
  Speaker 1: it's particularly suitable as a single. And I didn't know if,
• 32:53
  Speaker 1: I mean, it's just, it's just a song. I don't
• 32:56
  Speaker 1: know if it's a single, uh, it, it did decently. Uh,
• 33:04
  Speaker 1: but it's not, it's not within the luck. That's why
• 33:07
  Speaker 1: probably what a spot would have helped more.
• 33:11
  Speaker 2: That is a great song.
• 33:13
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 33:13
  Speaker 2: I never heard that song until reading your book.
• 33:15
  Speaker 1: Yeah. The arrangement is very basic because there's no guitars.
• 33:18
  Speaker 1: I mean, there's lots of percussion. bass, and synths. But again,
• 33:25
  Speaker 1: it works. And it's, again, Paul McCartney, if you don't
• 33:29
  Speaker 1: need a guitar, why put a guitar? I mean, Waterspout
• 33:37
  Speaker 1: doesn't need a guitar part, in my opinion. You can
• 33:40
  Speaker 1: think the arrangement is quite rough, but it works.
• 33:45
  Speaker 2: And that has not wound up in any official release yet.
• 33:49
  Speaker 2: Am I correct?
• 33:50
  Speaker 1: It almost did. It almost did in 1987 when they
• 33:56
  Speaker 1: planned to have it in a compilation, all the best.
• 34:02
  Speaker 1: And the sleeves were printed, the covers were printed. But
• 34:06
  Speaker 1: at the last moment, they decided to remove the song.
• 34:11
  Speaker 1: And so it's still on release. And that's one of
• 34:13
  Speaker 1: the reasons why people are asking, give us a card
• 34:18
  Speaker 1: collection of... of London Town, because the One Waterspot is
• 34:23
  Speaker 1: remixed and remastered. That could be a great listening experience.
• 34:27
  Speaker 2: What do you think about the critics at the time,
• 34:29
  Speaker 2: their assessment of the album? Which ones have aged the worst,
• 34:33
  Speaker 2: I guess, is the question, because some of them were
• 34:35
  Speaker 2: saying that they only thought Paul and Wings were only
• 34:39
  Speaker 2: half trying, which is ridiculous to me. But what do
• 34:42
  Speaker 2: you think about those assessments by critics at the time?
• 34:45
  Speaker 1: The assessments on Paul McCartney's records in the 70s, especially,
• 34:52
  Speaker 1: were too biased. I mean, they were not necessarily listening
• 34:58
  Speaker 1: only to the music, but they were only judging a
• 35:04
  Speaker 1: bit Paul McCartney, his character, his personalities. It's not just
• 35:11
  Speaker 1: the music. Well, we can say that at the time,
• 35:16
  Speaker 1: critics were more free than now, because I cannot imagine
• 35:24
  Speaker 1: now someone, well, let's get rid of the fact that
• 35:29
  Speaker 1: Paul McCartney is a giant of pop and rock music.
• 35:33
  Speaker 1: But who now can say, if an album is not good,
• 35:38
  Speaker 1: let's take McCartney, let's take another of these big artists,
• 35:43
  Speaker 1: who has the courage now to say, okay, it doesn't
• 35:47
  Speaker 1: work that much. Well, if you look at the reviews nowadays,
• 35:52
  Speaker 1: generally speaking, they are so boring. And I must admit
• 35:57
  Speaker 1: that at the time, these reviewers were at least injecting
• 36:03
  Speaker 1: their personality in their reviews because, well, you can not agree.
• 36:10
  Speaker 1: And I remember Paul saying, I don't listen to the
• 36:17
  Speaker 1: critics because they are not necessarily understanding music. They are
• 36:25
  Speaker 1: good at writing words. They write good words. You know?
• 36:31
  Speaker 2: Yeah. They were almost putting themselves before the actual assessment
• 36:36
  Speaker 2: of the album, like a I don't know if it's
• 36:39
  Speaker 2: gonzo journalism, but they're inserting themselves into the review to
• 36:42
  Speaker 2: get a name for themselves. For some, not all, but.
• 36:46
  Speaker 1: Kind of, I don't know if it's the right word,
• 36:48
  Speaker 1: a kind of protagonism. Right. A kind of ego, the
• 36:51
  Speaker 1: ego thing was there. But today, it has disappeared completely.
• 36:57
  Speaker 1: So let me, you know, also point out this. Okay,
• 37:02
  Speaker 1: I do not agree with some of this review's But
• 37:09
  Speaker 1: at least they got personality, these reviews. Now, most of
• 37:16
  Speaker 1: the time when I read a review, again, I'm not
• 37:20
  Speaker 1: talking about McCartney specifically, but I don't think the level
• 37:25
  Speaker 1: now of journalism is that... I mean, it misses fantasy.
• 37:33
  Speaker 1: And music is fantasy. And At the time, these reviews
• 37:38
  Speaker 1: were certainly divisive. Today, it's very difficult to find a
• 37:46
  Speaker 1: divisive review because the way these reviews are built, it's
• 37:55
  Speaker 1: always the same. So you talk about the track, you
• 37:59
  Speaker 1: talk about the instrumentation, you talk about the length, the vocals, blah, blah, blah.
• 38:03
  Speaker 1: But there's no... Well, some... some magazines or some website
• 38:08
  Speaker 1: had even removed the votes, you know, seven out of 10,
• 38:16
  Speaker 1: eight out of 10, no votes at the end. So,
• 38:21
  Speaker 1: you know, we can say that at the time, these
• 38:25
  Speaker 1: critics could really change the commercial fate of an album
• 38:31
  Speaker 1: because of a review. That's partly the role of a critic.
• 38:38
  Speaker 2: Yeah. And in today's world, it's getting clicks. It seems
• 38:44
  Speaker 2: like the more negative the reviews, the more people are
• 38:46
  Speaker 2: going to buy copies of that particular magazine or newspaper,
• 38:49
  Speaker 2: whereas now it's pretty much the same. It's like the
• 38:51
  Speaker 2: more harsh you are, the more critical you are and
• 38:53
  Speaker 2: controversial you are, the more people are going to watch it.
• 38:57
  Speaker 2: They get emotionally involved in it. And that's not a
• 38:59
  Speaker 2: good thing necessarily. I mean, you have to be careful
• 39:03
  Speaker 2: with you know, your journalistic integrity at some point, you know,
• 39:07
  Speaker 2: when you start to sell your soul just to get
• 39:10
  Speaker 2: people's attention and say things that maybe you don't even
• 39:13
  Speaker 2: necessarily feel, but you're just like, I'm going to go
• 39:15
  Speaker 2: after this person and that's going to get me more attention.
• 39:18
  Speaker 2: But yeah, the final question for you, Luca, would be
• 39:22
  Speaker 2: your final assessment of the album. And more specifically, do
• 39:25
  Speaker 2: you see this album as the beginning of the Wing's decline?
• 39:29
  Speaker 2: Because you know there was a best of and then
• 39:31
  Speaker 2: back to the egg, and that was it. Was this
• 39:33
  Speaker 2: the beginning of The Wing's decline? Or do you look
• 39:35
  Speaker 2: at this more as a moment when the band became
• 39:37
  Speaker 2: most creatively interesting and something you would have liked to
• 39:41
  Speaker 2: see more of?
• 39:41
  Speaker 1: No, I don't think it represents a decline. The real
• 39:48
  Speaker 1: issue was this personality clashes within the band. That was
• 39:54
  Speaker 1: the issue. But creatively speaking or arrangement-wise and stuff, it's
• 40:00
  Speaker 1: an album which, I mean, for me, I love Wings
• 40:05
  Speaker 1: at Speed of Sound, but if I have to choose
• 40:08
  Speaker 1: between Wings at Speed of Sound and London Town, I
• 40:11
  Speaker 1: would choose London Town. Back to the Egg is just...
• 40:16
  Speaker 1: I mean, it's not a great album, very, very close,
• 40:20
  Speaker 1: in my opinion, to London Town. I mean, so you
• 40:23
  Speaker 1: have Wings, and the last two albums of Wings being
• 40:27
  Speaker 1: great albums. I mean, a different era, because we can
• 40:35
  Speaker 1: really say, okay, Paul McCartney and Wings reached their peak
• 40:40
  Speaker 1: in 1976. But I don't think... London Town and Back
• 40:47
  Speaker 1: to the Egg, you can hear or sense a decline. Now,
• 40:56
  Speaker 1: I mean, Paul in the 70s was always on fire
• 41:01
  Speaker 1: until the end. So I won't label London Town as
• 41:07
  Speaker 1: a decline. I would have liked to see more of that.
• 41:14
  Speaker 1: but in 1979, 1980, I think Paul got bored about
• 41:21
  Speaker 1: having a band. He just thought he needed something different.
• 41:27
  Speaker 1: He was not bored of the people, but he was
• 41:29
  Speaker 1: bored of maybe touring, doing the same old things, and
• 41:37
  Speaker 1: he wanted a change. That's perfectly natural. I mean, it
• 41:40
  Speaker 1: was 1980, Paul was... 38, so it was approaching 40.
• 41:48
  Speaker 1: Different age, different needs.
• 41:55
  Speaker 2: Wings, London Town, the story of an adventurous album. Another
• 41:58
  Speaker 2: great book, thoroughly researched. These books are so good. This
• 42:02
  Speaker 2: is all part of Lilly Publishing's series of books, right?
• 42:07
  Speaker 2: On particular albums.
• 42:08
  Speaker 1: Yeah, the Meister series.
• 42:10
  Speaker 2: Right, right. So it is out. You can find it wherever.
• 42:13
  Speaker 2: You get your books online or in person. You can
• 42:17
  Speaker 2: look for it at your nearest bookstore. Go to bookdownrock.com
• 42:20
  Speaker 2: to find your nearest independent bookstore. And look, people can
• 42:23
  Speaker 2: find you online.
• 42:24
  Speaker 1: Where?
• 42:24
  Speaker 2: I know Facebook is one of them. Where else can
• 42:26
  Speaker 2: people find you? Also, the Lilly Publishing website.
• 42:29
  Speaker 1: There's a Lilly Publishing website. There's my personal profile on Instagram, Facebook, Threads,
• 42:38
  Speaker 1: Blue Sky, and Next. I think that's all.
• 42:43
  Speaker 2: You know, I think our most popular episode, we've done
• 42:46
  Speaker 2: three or four, is the, I think it's the Elton
• 42:48
  Speaker 2: John one. I think so. But, you know, it's interesting.
• 42:52
  Speaker 2: Whenever I put up your episodes and they have to
• 42:54
  Speaker 2: do with Paul McCartney, they go up. The numbers go up.
• 42:57
  Speaker 2: People love Paul.
• 42:58
  Speaker 1: One of the reasons is, again, this one. Paul McCartney
• 43:02
  Speaker 1: has got such a diverse production that I felt, well,
• 43:09
  Speaker 1: I think it's worth dedicating time a book to every
• 43:14
  Speaker 1: single Paul McCartney album. Also because of the fact there
• 43:17
  Speaker 1: are people who were involved in the sessions. And I
• 43:21
  Speaker 1: think these contributions are really key to my book, more
• 43:25
  Speaker 1: than my opinions. There's more research and talking with these
• 43:32
  Speaker 1: people who were in the studio, who witnessed what happened.
• 43:36
  Speaker 1: So in the end, you can really deep dive into
• 43:39
  Speaker 1: these books and listening to the album and you've got
• 43:43
  Speaker 1: all the behind the scenes and then you can appreciate
• 43:46
  Speaker 1: even more all this, you know, the harmony of the songs,
• 43:54
  Speaker 1: the lyrical stuff, the little tricks they use in the
• 43:58
  Speaker 1: studio while we're recording. I mean, it's, there are fascinating
• 44:04
  Speaker 1: aspects of recordings and that you can learn a lot.
• 44:08
  Speaker 1: I've learned a lot. I mean, there's, Always something I
• 44:12
  Speaker 1: say when I write a book, I'm learning. I'm not
• 44:16
  Speaker 1: teaching others. I'm learning myself and sharing. Because also in
• 44:22
  Speaker 1: the case of London Town, I think I knew before
• 44:28
  Speaker 1: my interviews, before the research and stuff, I know maybe
• 44:32
  Speaker 1: 40% of people. what I'm going to write. The other 60,
• 44:38
  Speaker 1: or even more, it's discovering, it's researching. Yeah, isn't that great?
• 44:44
  Speaker 1: I have an idea in my mind, but then the
• 44:46
  Speaker 1: book is built through a process of maybe one year,
• 44:50
  Speaker 1: one year and a half, doing other things. And so
• 44:55
  Speaker 1: it's a learning process, and that's what I enjoy most.
• 44:59
  Speaker 1: If I've learned, and that means I've enjoyed writing, And
• 45:05
  Speaker 1: if I have enjoyed writing it, I know it's a
• 45:09
  Speaker 1: good book.
• 45:10
  Speaker 2: Absolutely, yeah. And it starts with genuine curiosity. And then
• 45:13
  Speaker 2: from there, it's the detective work. And you find out
• 45:15
  Speaker 2: all that stuff. Like I say, the 60% of the
• 45:17
  Speaker 2: book that you learn along the way. And I've become
• 45:20
  Speaker 2: a bigger Paul Solo fan just through your books. Yeah, Luca,
• 45:23
  Speaker 2: thanks again. We'll have you back on down the road.
• 45:26
  Speaker 2: And I look forward to what you have next.
• 45:28
  Speaker 1: The series continues. So I can say now... We are
• 45:33
  Speaker 1: approaching the next volume, which will be on Flowers in
• 45:35
  Speaker 1: the Dirt.
• 45:36
  Speaker 2: Definitely looking forward to that one. Thanks so much, Luca.
• 45:39
  Speaker 1: Thanks, Eric, to you, and talk to you soon. That's it.
• 45:50
  Speaker 1: It's in the books.