Latest / Equine Assisted World with Rupert Isaacson / EP3: Terri Brosnan - Childvision - Dublin, IRE

Transcript

EP3: Terri Brosnan - Childvision - Dublin, IRE · Equine Assisted World with Rupert Isaacson

• 0:00
  Rupert Isaacson: Welcome to Equine Assisted World.
• 0:02
  I'm your host, Rupert Isaacson.
• 0:03
  New York Times bestselling author of the Horse Boy.
• 0:07
  Founder of New Trails Learning Systems and long ride home.com.
• 0:11
  You can find details of all our programs and shows on Rupert isaacson.com.
• 0:16
  Here on Equine Assisted World.
• 0:18
  We look at the cutting edge and the best practices currently being developed and,
• 0:23
  established in the equine assisted field.
• 0:27
  This can be psychological, this can be neuropsych, this can be
• 0:33
  physical, this can be all of the conditions that human beings have.
• 0:38
  These lovely equines, these beautiful horses that we work with, help us with.
• 0:43
  Thank you for being part of the adventure and we hope you enjoy today's show
• 0:47
  welcome back to Equine Assisted World, where we talk to people, who are in
• 0:52
  the world of therapy therapeutic, stuff that is just pl flat out good for you.
• 0:59
  working with horses in a way for the body, for the mind, for the soul.
• 1:05
  what's the cutting edge of this?
• 1:06
  It's, it's a rapidly developing field, and the point of this, podcast is
• 1:12
  to make people aware of some of the people who are out there really at the
• 1:17
  cutting edge, doing amazing work with this on the neuroscience end, on the
• 1:21
  practical end, on the horse welfare end, or putting it all together.
• 1:26
  So I have today somebody absolutely fabulous.
• 1:30
  you can always rely on me to find people who are absolutely
• 1:32
  fabulous, and this is one of them.
• 1:34
  She's called Terry Brosnan.
• 1:36
  If you don't know who Terry Brosnan is, you should, Terry Brosnan is
• 1:41
  in Dublin, and she runs the, equine program at the Child Vision, school,
• 1:49
  which is in the middle of Dublin.
• 1:51
  I don't mean on the edge of Dublin with some fields, I mean in the
• 1:54
  middle of Dublin with horses starving kids from, poor backgrounds.
• 1:59
  And, it's a school for the visually impaired, which has a really, really,
• 2:04
  really large collegiate intake.
• 2:06
  But it's also, a school that has large amounts of people with autism, other
• 2:11
  neuropsychiatric related, conditions and physical conditions, some of them quite
• 2:15
  severe and visually impaired altogether.
• 2:18
  It's a really, it's tough job, , in a tough place, and Terry makes it work.
• 2:27
  but Terry doesn't just do that.
• 2:30
  Terry has been somewhat of a newcomer to the equine assisted world,
• 2:37
  meaning within the last decade.
• 2:39
  And one of the things which she identified, which I thought was very
• 2:43
  interesting, was that there was a lot of factionalism and a lot of
• 2:48
  division between the different areas of equine assisted stuff, whether it
• 2:54
  was Path International or R d a or Hippotherapy or I gala or Horse Boy or
• 3:01
  Dead, all of which are great things.
• 3:04
  But they were all existing very much separate from each other.
• 3:07
  And people, having an idea that somehow they were in competition with each
• 3:10
  other or, you should do one but not the other, which of course is not true.
• 3:15
  all the best practices combined.
• 3:17
  So, Terry really saw this problem and she's one of the few people I've run
• 3:22
  across who were proactive about it, and I was lucky enough to be sitting in a, in a.
• 3:28
  Meeting about three years ago in Dublin, where an idea came up to create, an
• 3:35
  organization called Equine Assisted Ireland, a national association
• 3:40
  that would put together all these modalities, all these paradigms,
• 3:44
  and, look for the best and look, look for the best practices within them.
• 3:50
  This then went on to something else rather extraordinary.
• 3:55
  And this is what I'm gonna ask Terry about.
• 3:57
  So Terry, just introduce her.
• 3:59
  Who are you?
• 3:59
  What do you do?
• 4:01
  Why are you here?
• 4:02
  Terri Brosnan: I'm Terry Brosnan.
• 4:03
  I have grown up around horses and fascinated by the way that we
• 4:08
  interact with them all of my life.
• 4:10
  I got the opportunity, just over seven years ago to work
• 4:14
  in, a therapeutic setting.
• 4:18
  and to take it on and make it work cuz it was sitting there.
• 4:21
  It wasn't quite working.
• 4:23
  and they didn't know what was, why this couldn't work in a situation
• 4:29
  that had been set up specifically for it and it still wasn't working.
• 4:33
  and so I came in and, one of the big problems that I found was that
• 4:38
  there was a lack of communication between all of these different groups
• 4:43
  that were setting themselves up within the equine assisted areas.
• 4:49
  There was a lot of what we would call here in Ireland, snobbery, and just difference
• 4:54
  between groups, and a feeling that certain groups were better or less than others.
• 5:00
  from my understanding of it, because I was coming in from the
• 5:03
  outside, I could kind of see that all of these groups were fantastic.
• 5:07
  All of them offered really good connections with the people
• 5:11
  that they were working with.
• 5:12
  They were all coming from a really good place, and all of them wanted to learn
• 5:18
  more than they currently knew, and wanted this practice to move forward.
• 5:24
  so I think that when I, when I see common goals, I'm, I'm somebody who kind of goes,
• 5:29
  oh, well, let's group all these people together and see, see where this can go,
• 5:33
  because we're always better together.
• 5:35
  We're, you know, human beings, we're better in a tribe, you know, we're
• 5:38
  always better when we have support, and we're not trying to go it alone.
• 5:43
  and so I thought, right, if I can get all these people in a room and we can
• 5:48
  say, actually, look, we have so much to offer each other, we can go send so many
• 5:53
  more places together than we can apart.
• 5:55
  , and that was where the idea was born out of.
• 5:58
  , we have a great relationship with I Gala because, you know, their
• 6:03
  practices are so high standard here.
• 6:06
  Their, their, their people are really well trained and, and
• 6:09
  fantastic, , at what they do.
• 6:12
  And when we looked at the R D A I, which it is in Ireland, which is the
• 6:16
  equivalent of PATH or the R D A in the uk, these guys had been working
• 6:20
  at this since, in Ireland, I think since the seventies and the eighties.
• 6:26
  all with really good backgrounds.
• 6:27
  They, a lot of these women coming from horsey backgrounds, knowing
• 6:31
  their, their good Irish horses, knowing all these attributes, and
• 6:35
  desperate for more information and not really having a way of connecting
• 6:41
  in with the wider world and wider developments and EQU assisted activities.
• 6:46
  And, and so bringing everybody together was a way of trying to, establish
• 6:51
  connections to the likes of Hetty I, Ohio, the larger organizations where research
• 6:57
  was being done where, like Horse Boy where people could actually just say,
• 7:01
  oh yeah, I can see how I can apply this to my work and improve what I'm doing.
• 7:06
  So that was how we started that.
• 7:09
  Rupert Isaacson: So, just for the listeners who aren't familiar with
• 7:12
  Heti and I Ohio, can you just tell us a little bit about what they're,
• 7:17
  Terri Brosnan: so I'll start with I Ohio, cause they're a
• 7:19
  really interesting organization.
• 7:21
  They're the International Association of Human Animal Interaction Organizations.
• 7:26
  So they look after things like, you know, human animal interactions with dogs, cats,
• 7:31
  farm animals, horses, elephants, whale.
• 7:34
  Everything.
• 7:35
  Everything.
• 7:36
  Yeah.
• 7:36
  And they're interested in studying how humans and animals interact with each
• 7:40
  other, and they very involved in research and looking at this across the globe.
• 7:47
  Then, I suppose Hetty is the horses in Education and Therapy International,
• 7:52
  and they would be a member of Ohio.
• 7:54
  Okay.
• 7:55
  They would be one of the members of Iowa, Ohio, but they specialize in horses alone.
• 8:00
  And so they would have originally been made up of the rda, the Riding for the
• 8:06
  Disabled Association, path International.
• 8:09
  those would've been the original founding groups of Hetty.
• 8:12
  and it has evolved now, and it includes Al in various countries.
• 8:17
  It includes, horse boy practitioners, it includes therapeutic riding coaches, OTs,
• 8:24
  physios, everybody who's coming into this field, can become a member of if Hetty.
• 8:30
  , and they're looking at trying to ensure great welfare for their horses, welfare
• 8:35
  for clients and, and a kind of standard, professional standard across the board.
• 8:42
  Rupert Isaacson: And so I, I, I was there with you.
• 8:45
  That's kind of when I more or less first met you.
• 8:48
  Yeah.
• 8:48
  and we were, you were, putting forward, an island based national association,
• 8:53
  which has since gained ground.
• 8:56
  Called Equine Assisted Ireland, bringing all of these diverse groups together,
• 9:00
  which I thought was a brilliant idea.
• 9:01
  and now several years on, I now see that you're doing something else on a
• 9:08
  national level, which I find intriguing.
• 9:11
  so what, for the listeners, what, what Terry's done is she, so
• 9:17
  she, she has, well, tell us, you involved Horse Sport Ireland, right?
• 9:22
  Yes.
• 9:22
  She managed to get the sport horse organization, which would be the
• 9:27
  equivalent of the US Equestrian Federation or the British Horse Society to back
• 9:35
  a really interesting project that, so what have you managed to do, Terry?
• 9:40
  Terri Brosnan: So, I think, you know, we recognize the need for
• 9:44
  therapeutic riding across every society that we've come across.
• 9:49
  and what's happening is people are turning up on riding school
• 9:53
  doors and going, knocking there and saying, hi, can you see my child?
• 9:58
  and the riding instructors that are there have all this horse knowledge.
• 10:03
  They've learned how to give a flat work lesson.
• 10:05
  They've learned how to give a lunch lesson, lead rain, jumping, all of this.
• 10:10
  But they've never learned how to give a therapeutic session.
• 10:15
  and.
• 10:15
  They didn't have that skill, that toolbox, that skill group.
• 10:19
  and so horse Sport Ireland, came to us and said, look, we have this
• 10:24
  demand, we have this enormous demand.
• 10:27
  How are we going to fill it?
• 10:29
  How, how can, what can we do?
• 10:31
  How can we allow the people that are there who have all of this horse knowledge
• 10:37
  to expand it and have a toolbox to work with children with, autism, sensory
• 10:43
  processing issues, disabilities, all sorts of, in a regular riding school
• 10:48
  environment, in a regular riding school.
• 10:50
  Right?
• 10:50
  And
• 10:50
  Rupert Isaacson: I guess this would also include people with eating
• 10:52
  disorders or anxiety or D H D or just the stuff that shows up, right?
• 10:57
  Terri Brosnan: Everything across the board.
• 10:58
  So, I mean, they're, these people are the type of people who are, are
• 11:02
  knocking on the doors of writing centers all over Ireland anyway.
• 11:06
  and there was a huge demand, but no qualified staff.
• 11:11
  and so horse board Allen said, look, we need to provide qualified people here.
• 11:16
  How do, how are we gonna do it?
• 11:18
  And they came to, our team and, where I work in television, they said, look, you
• 11:22
  guys all started as riding instructors.
• 11:25
  You guys all came from a horse background system is working and
• 11:31
  you're providing this amazing service.
• 11:33
  So how can we, how can we become you?
• 11:34
  How, how can we make ourselves, how can we provide this information to.
• 11:40
  All of, the, people around, excuse me, there's a ghost in the background here.
• 11:46
  Large dogs, but a four-legged one.
• 11:47
  Yeah.
• 11:48
  A four-legged one.
• 11:49
  Yes.
• 11:50
  So, we proposed that we would sit down, examine our practices and
• 11:55
  see what it was that makes ridings instructors really good at this work.
• 12:02
  And I think we're uniquely qualified.
• 12:03
  Actually, horsey people are uniquely qualified because our day-to-day
• 12:09
  colleague is a large non-verbal colleague.
• 12:14
  We work with non-verbal people, inver commas, horses,
• 12:19
  Rupert Isaacson: with a lot of anxiety.
• 12:20
  A horse with a prey animal,
• 12:22
  Terri Brosnan: absolutely.
• 12:22
  With high cortisol levels.
• 12:25
  So, I mean, these are our, these are our, best friends and our,
• 12:28
  and our colleagues every day.
• 12:30
  And so we are used to reading body language.
• 12:33
  We're used to not having to communicate with words, and we're used to doing risk
• 12:40
  assessments on a very, very quick basis.
• 12:43
  so we, we have lots of skills within our armor that we can add to, to,
• 12:49
  allow people to really provide good quality researched, Sessions that
• 12:56
  will meet goals for people, okay.
• 12:59
  Meet goals for the children and adults that they're seeing, and improve lives.
• 13:03
  So that was what we did.
• 13:04
  We put together a course, we wrote it over lockdown.
• 13:08
  and then we, they, they, they came to us and, and said,
• 13:11
  look, we'll fund it with you.
• 13:13
  If you apply for funding with us, we'll, we'll go for it.
• 13:16
  We applied for funding.
• 13:17
  We were successful.
• 13:19
  And that financed the setting up writing and, rolling out of this course.
• 13:26
  So I, last year, between actually November, 2021 and November, 2022,
• 13:35
  we had had about 50 people on our course, but qualified about 35 of them.
• 13:42
  They all had the right qualifications to get certified within the process.
• 13:47
  Rupert Isaacson: So when you say the right qualifications, this, this means that
• 13:50
  these were people, for example, who'd already done their B H S A I, that would
• 13:54
  be the British Horse Society assisted instructor basic level thing, that they
• 13:58
  had to at least have something like that,
• 13:59
  Terri Brosnan: or Absolutely.
• 14:01
  They had to have some coaching ch or teaching qualification.
• 14:04
  They had to have a good horse background.
• 14:08
  and they also needed, because of the, the, the setup with the Horse,
• 14:13
  port Island and the Association of Irish Riding establishments.
• 14:16
  Who really pushed for this to go through, they had to be a member
• 14:21
  of the Association of Irish Riding Establishments or be, an employee of a
• 14:26
  member of the Association of Irish Riding
• 14:28
  Rupert Isaacson: establishment.
• 14:29
  So there's something here that's blowing my mind.
• 14:30
  I'm used to the large horse associations, being closed priesthoods
• 14:38
  that perhaps, act like gatekeepers and this can, like any bureaucratic
• 14:44
  organization, make change a slow thing.
• 14:47
  You said that horse Sport Island came to you, you didn't go to them.
• 14:55
  No.
• 14:55
  That's unheard of.
• 14:56
  How did this happen?
• 14:58
  Terri Brosnan: well, I think they had, I, I knew a lot of people who were working
• 15:02
  in the industry have done all of my life.
• 15:05
  and they were interested in, when I started into therapeutic writing,
• 15:11
  they were interested because they know the way my mind works.
• 15:14
  I need to have facts.
• 15:16
  I, I'm very logical, I like things to, to progress in an order.
• 15:22
  and they know that for me, the horse knowledge is where I want to come from.
• 15:27
  I always wanna learn more.
• 15:29
  I want to interact with my horses in the best way that I can.
• 15:34
  and I'm not afraid to say there's lots of things I don't know, and
• 15:37
  I'm always willing to learn if there's a better way to do something.
• 15:41
  and so we started this.
• 15:43
  I got a lot of help from people within the organization that I work from.
• 15:48
  I have an amazing team.
• 15:50
  Everybody came with ideas.
• 15:52
  We were lucky enough to be introduced to you, Rupert, and we, we absorb,
• 15:57
  we have a team that absorbs ideas and we will find the best principles and
• 16:01
  we'll take them and run with them.
• 16:03
  I'm a magpie.
• 16:04
  I will take anybody else's idea if I think it's good enough, and I will run with it.
• 16:09
  And that's really what happened.
• 16:11
  We learned a lot very quickly from our OTs, our physios from the
• 16:16
  experts in orientation and mobility, disability experts learned a lot
• 16:22
  going back to basics of horsemanship and going, okay, so what can we do?
• 16:27
  How do we marry this all together?
• 16:29
  The final linchpin for me was the horse boy experience.
• 16:33
  So that marries the, the, the two aspects really well together.
• 16:38
  And it showed me the place of the horse at the center of the work that I'm
• 16:43
  doing, which really sat well with me.
• 16:46
  and so when I'm doing something like that and I'm all enthusiastic,
• 16:49
  I'll, I'm very evangelistic.
• 16:52
  I'm, I'm talking to everybody about it.
• 16:54
  so I, you know, I was, I was letting, people that I knew in the industry
• 16:59
  know about this, the work that I was doing, and they said, this sounds
• 17:03
  just like really good horsemanship and that's what we want to promote.
• 17:10
  and you're, you're really preserving your horses at the center of the
• 17:14
  work and you're doing good work with the clients that you're seeing.
• 17:18
  So that's what we are interested in.
• 17:20
  We're interested in coming from a horse perspective.
• 17:24
  I think the difficulty is for the, the governing horse bodies around the world
• 17:34
  is that the horse isn't always the center of therapeutic riding or therapeutic or
• 17:42
  equine-assisted activities, whatever the
• 17:45
  Rupert Isaacson: terminology of sport riding as well, I mean, or, or of sport
• 17:49
  Terri Brosnan: riding.
• 17:49
  Exactly.
• 17:51
  Rupert Isaacson: Horse is often neglected as even, yes.
• 17:54
  Yeah.
• 17:55
  Terri Brosnan: So, so they're really are starting to move towards a
• 17:59
  system where the horse is the center.
• 18:03
  Okay.
• 18:03
  And everything else needs to come from that.
• 18:07
  The, you know, because if we're looking at having.
• 18:12
  Other professions wanting to join us in the arena, they need
• 18:17
  to have a horse person there.
• 18:19
  I think the analogy I like to use is, you know, when you're a healthcare
• 18:23
  professional and you're working with parents, they are the expert on their
• 18:26
  child and they will tell you all of this amazing information about their
• 18:30
  child and they know more about their children's needs than anybody else.
• 18:36
  And that's equivalent.
• 18:38
  You know, there doesn't make them a professional, a healthcare professional,
• 18:42
  because if they had seen a thousand children at that level, that makes them a
• 18:46
  horse care pro or healthcare professional.
• 18:48
  And I would feel the same about horses.
• 18:50
  Somebody who owns one horse and knows it well may be an expert in that horse, but
• 18:55
  it doesn't make them a horse professional.
• 18:57
  Mm.
• 18:57
  But when you've had hundreds of horses through your hands and working with
• 19:02
  them on an ongoing basis, that makes you a horse professional, hopefully
• 19:06
  you're a horse professional who puts the horse at the center of your work.
• 19:10
  and I think we need to be really, enthused that horse.
• 19:14
  People want to get involved in this because they need to protect the horse
• 19:17
  and keep it at the center of this work.
• 19:19
  I want
• 19:19
  Rupert Isaacson: to come in a few minutes to how exactly you are putting the horse
• 19:25
  first, and what are you doing for the horse body, mind, spirit wellbeing as
• 19:30
  part of this work and policy force.
• 19:32
  But before I go there, what's been the response?
• 19:35
  From the equine, these young equine professionals that you're reaching out to.
• 19:39
  Cause you're basically saying to them, if, if I understand it correctly,
• 19:42
  look, there's a career path here.
• 19:44
  whether you do actual therapeutic modalities or whether you want to
• 19:49
  just be, , a writing instructor, but knowing that you're gonna get
• 19:53
  these people coming in now more and more with diagnosed conditions or
• 19:58
  maybe undiagnosed conditions, but still needing a more sensitive hand.
• 20:03
  what's been the response from these people?
• 20:05
  Because horse people are famously bossy and like, well, they
• 20:07
  should just get up with it and, you know, pull their socks up.
• 20:09
  And so how, how have you managed to, to get through that bossy horsiness that
• 20:15
  so many of us were brought up with?
• 20:18
  Terri Brosnan: I, I, there are two aspects to this.
• 20:20
  I think the overwhelming response has been relief, interesting from people.
• 20:25
  Interesting.
• 20:26
  They have been looking for a way to deal with these clients that they're seeing.
• 20:32
  Either they know and they're being told these clients have autism or A
• 20:37
  D H D or they're not told and they're still having to try and put them
• 20:42
  on a horse and teach them riding without any skillset or toolkit.
• 20:48
  so on that basis, there was overall relief and that was added to by the idea that.
• 20:57
  Yes, you already have a huge number of the skills that are required.
• 21:02
  We're not gonna teach you to suck eggs.
• 21:05
  You know, we're not going to reinvent the wheel here.
• 21:08
  All of the skills that you have around horses are all valid, and this is
• 21:14
  how you utilize them better to put the horse at the center of your work.
• 21:19
  and I think it's really important for, particularly in Ireland, because
• 21:23
  we're the land of the horse and nobody wants to be talked down to here.
• 21:26
  We're all very prickly about, you know, we know what we're doing.
• 21:30
  so it, it leads to that idea of, you know, if you're gentle with people
• 21:36
  and assume that they're coming from a place of knowledge, they can always
• 21:41
  ask if they, if they want to fill in any gaps, and we leave that space open.
• 21:46
  But we're saying to them, okay guys, this is stuff you have.
• 21:50
  How do you want to evolve it?
• 21:54
  You know, we're gonna give you everything you need.
• 21:57
  What are you looking for?
• 21:59
  So we're asking them to feed back into it, and that takes away the bossiness.
• 22:04
  We all need to be a little bit more curious, a little bit more vulnerable,
• 22:08
  a little less, you know, on edge when we, when we meet with other
• 22:12
  professionals, who might, it might seem quite threatening, you know, here's
• 22:16
  somebody going to tell you how to run your life or how to run your horses.
• 22:20
  And that's not what we're about at all.
• 22:22
  We're about.
• 22:23
  Saying, look, we were curious.
• 22:25
  We, we found this great system and we found other great systems and
• 22:30
  we've implemented them all together.
• 22:32
  or as much of the, the best practice with a human and the best practice
• 22:36
  with a horse that we could find for various different reasons.
• 22:39
  I mean, our specialty is visual impairment and it's a very unique slot.
• 22:45
  And we found all the experts in that.
• 22:46
  And we, we look at that very particularly.
• 22:49
  but we have lots to learn from our students as well.
• 22:53
  And we're not above saying to them, look, what is your experience?
• 22:57
  Tell us your experience.
• 22:58
  Bring your personality into the situation.
• 23:02
  Trust the
• 23:02
  Rupert Isaacson: experts, basically.
• 23:03
  The experts being absolutely, yeah.
• 23:04
  With the condition.
• 23:05
  Yeah.
• 23:05
  Yeah, that makes perfect sense.
• 23:08
  So, I'm gonna ask you actually a bit in a mi in a moment about the
• 23:11
  specifics of working with people with visual impairments, and particularly
• 23:14
  when there's visual impairments are combined with say, autism or
• 23:19
  say, a serious physical condition.
• 23:22
  but let's talk about this horse welfare aspect.
• 23:25
  so if you were saying that the, horse sport island, and then professionals
• 23:29
  within the horse industry there were reacting well to what you were including
• 23:38
  in this course, for professionals, not just about how you work with people with.
• 23:42
  Special needs of one kind or another, but also on how do you prioritize
• 23:46
  the welfare of the horse in this?
• 23:49
  Can you tell us a bit about how you do prioritize the
• 23:51
  welfare of the horse in this?
• 23:53
  Cause you, you're in a unique position there in the middle of the city.
• 23:56
  Terri Brosnan: Yeah.
• 23:56
  So it there, there's a couple of interesting aspects to this.
• 24:00
  Yes, we are in the city center, so that means that we actually
• 24:05
  don't have access to daily grazing.
• 24:08
  We don't have access to some of the things that in an ideal world, we would
• 24:14
  want for our horses on a day-to-day
• 24:17
  Rupert Isaacson: basis.
• 24:17
  Well, that many people take for granted.
• 24:19
  Terri Brosnan: Yeah, absolutely.
• 24:20
  Horses and humans live have and will always live hand and gel for the last
• 24:26
  God knows how many thousand of years.
• 24:27
  So we've found a way of prioritizing the most important things,
• 24:33
  which are our horses, welfare and happiness on a daily basis.
• 24:38
  why, why would I be interested in this?
• 24:40
  Well, originally when I, went and, and talked to the guys in Ohio, I,
• 24:48
  I was talking to them from a horse perspective and a lot of their.
• 24:51
  Practitioners were coming from psychological perspectives and working
• 24:55
  with horses, but, but not necessarily always from a horse background.
• 24:59
  And they were really interested to work with people who were just
• 25:02
  coming from an equine background.
• 25:04
  And so one of the things that I got involved in early on was a, an
• 25:09
  equine welfare task force, or an equine task force, not just welfare.
• 25:13
  One of the modules we worked on was welfare and training of the
• 25:18
  horse and best practices within equine assisted activities.
• 25:22
  It was a group from all over the world, and everybody was coming at
• 25:26
  it from their own unique perspective.
• 25:31
  You know, people from South Africa, from Australia, from
• 25:34
  France, Germany, the states.
• 25:37
  And everybody's situation was different, but the core tenants of
• 25:43
  best welfare practice were the same.
• 25:45
  and so that was an interesting group to work with.
• 25:49
  And it, it, it, it fed into a lot of what I knew, what I'd learned,
• 25:53
  what I was going to go on and learn.
• 25:55
  and I'd always been interested in, Andrew McLean and Paul McGreevy's
• 25:59
  work on equitation science.
• 26:03
  I'd always been interested in how horses learn.
• 26:06
  And then having worked with you guys in Horse Boy , it's applying that learning.
• 26:11
  To keeping horses interested, keeping them happy, not letting them go
• 26:17
  still, cuz in Ireland, I don't know.
• 26:20
  I, I can only speak from my own perspective.
• 26:22
  We have a situation where we break horses around four years of age.
• 26:25
  We teach them a lot between four and six, maybe seven years of age.
• 26:30
  And then we just stop, we stop their education.
• 26:36
  Mm-hmm.
• 26:36
  Unless they're very, in a very tiny number of elite horses
• 26:41
  that are doing, progressing with dressage or venting, we stop.
• 26:46
  And it's just so devastating for horses.
• 26:50
  They're such intelligent beings.
• 26:52
  They love to learn.
• 26:54
  and they, they'll learn anything.
• 26:55
  They'll learn lots of bad habits as well as good habits if you let them.
• 26:59
  and I think that's inevitably what often happens to, to, horses in the
• 27:03
  long run is that they get so bored, that they, they learn bad habits
• 27:07
  Rupert Isaacson: instead of I agree.
• 27:08
  I mean the, the, the, a lot of what people say, I think when they're saying,
• 27:12
  oh, this horse is bad to behave, or it's just bored and, and that horses
• 27:16
  are essentially playful animals and the one thing they're often so often
• 27:19
  not allowed to ever do is play.
• 27:20
  And certainly that, that play can't come into the working environment.
• 27:24
  Can you tell us how that, given that you are in these, this really
• 27:30
  constrained environment, what is your week to week program?
• 27:37
  For your horses that keeps them happy, involved, fit and body and
• 27:41
  mind that others could follow.
• 27:43
  What, what, what's your formula?
• 27:44
  What do you do at Child Vision?
• 27:46
  Terri Brosnan: Okay, so it's a real mix.
• 27:47
  across the board.
• 27:49
  There are play times, there's loose schooling.
• 27:51
  most of the weekends we, we don't work at the weekends.
• 27:54
  We're in a very luxury position with horses.
• 27:57
  Unlike most people.
• 27:58
  We, we are, our horses are off every weekend, so we encourage
• 28:03
  lots of loose schooling over our weekends, loose jumping, little
• 28:07
  bit of lunging, but nothing where there's a human on their back.
• 28:11
  If we can possibly get away with it over the weekend, Monday to
• 28:15
  Friday, then we'll work in hand.
• 28:17
  We'll work long reigns, we'll work lunging, and we will school our horses.
• 28:22
  We don't have a huge amount of time.
• 28:24
  We see an awful lot of people.
• 28:25
  How many do you see Between 80 and 120 every week.
• 28:30
  Okay.
• 28:31
  And we have a, we have a staff of, of four at the moment.
• 28:34
  80
• 28:35
  Rupert Isaacson: to a hundred people a week.
• 28:37
  Staff of four.
• 28:38
  And you said lunging in hand and long reigning during the week.
• 28:43
  When you're seeing these hundred people, how do you avoid there being a time
• 28:47
  conflict between what you gotta do for the horse and what you gotta do for
• 28:51
  Terri Brosnan: the people?
• 28:52
  So this was, this was the really interesting thing working
• 28:54
  with you guys was just where, how could we find the time?
• 28:58
  Where would we find the time?
• 29:00
  Because it seemed like, you know, you needed time for in hand work, you needed
• 29:04
  time for this, you needed time for that.
• 29:05
  And where were we gonna see all these clients?
• 29:08
  so we, we combined the two where, where possible, you know, we give lunch
• 29:12
  lessons, we'll give in hand work with our clients, we'll teach them how to
• 29:16
  do it, we'll teach them how to lunch.
• 29:18
  We will, you know, work with them in long reigns.
• 29:21
  We will in use side rains and we'll use market harbors.
• 29:26
  We'll use v e side rains to give our horse contact to work into, so
• 29:30
  that they can continue the work that they've done on the lunge or in the
• 29:33
  side rains as they progress around.
• 29:35
  Rupert Isaacson: Oh, that's clever.
• 29:36
  So you, you sessions, they can build their muscles at the
• 29:38
  same time as working with the
• 29:39
  Terri Brosnan: kids.
• 29:40
  Absolutely.
• 29:41
  Cuz we don't have enough time to do it outside of sessions.
• 29:44
  We have to incorporate that work into when the horses are actually moving.
• 29:49
  Rupert Isaacson: okay, so you, you, for example, would have an autistic
• 29:51
  or blind child on the horse while doing the in-hand work with the horse?
• 29:55
  Absolutely.
• 29:56
  Terri Brosnan: It gives them amazing feel.
• 29:58
  Rupert Isaacson: Ah, okay.
• 29:59
  Okay.
• 30:00
  No, this makes sense.
• 30:01
  And then do some of your, older.
• 30:05
  Clients who maybe are getting to adolescent, can you bring
• 30:08
  them in as part of the team?
• 30:09
  Can you then hand over some of the lunging, long reigning and in hand
• 30:13
  Terri Brosnan: work to them?
• 30:13
  Yeah, I mean, we, we would have, we would have volunteers and we would
• 30:17
  have older clients that come in and do work experience with us and volunteer.
• 30:22
  And we would try, and this is not rocket science, and there is very little
• 30:28
  gatekeeping within, our organization or our team within the expertise we have.
• 30:35
  We have this expertise, do you wanna come and learn?
• 30:37
  Let's do this.
• 30:39
  You know, we'll give, we'll pitch it at the right volume, we'll
• 30:42
  pitch it at the right level.
• 30:44
  but we are not saying, you can't do this or you can't learn this.
• 30:48
  There's far too much of that in horses.
• 30:50
  It's like, I have this knowledge and you need to give me all
• 30:53
  your money so you can have it.
• 30:56
  so we try and just say, look, you know, what, what part of this, do
• 30:59
  you wanna help us train these horses?
• 31:01
  Would you like to, to learn how to lunge them?
• 31:04
  Would you like to learn how to do in handwork?
• 31:06
  And we keep it fairly basic because, you know, it depends on how we
• 31:11
  don't wanna overwhelm people either.
• 31:13
  You want to set them up for success and make sure that they're, you're, you're
• 31:17
  providing them with accurate training that's going to allow them to do the work
• 31:21
  that th that you're doing with them and improve what the situation and, and make
• 31:26
  it all happier for them and the horse.
• 31:28
  Rupert Isaacson: From the listener's point of view, I can really attest to this.
• 31:30
  I had the, honor of going to the, Royal Dublin show, which
• 31:35
  is the big Irish horse show.
• 31:37
  If you haven't ever gone there, you really should.
• 31:39
  It's one of the great cultural experiences in the world, I think.
• 31:42
  and, I saw you Terry and Lucy, Lucy, Dylan, your right hand, who's amazing, and
• 31:50
  David, , tell me David's surname again.
• 31:53
  David Mole.
• 31:54
  David Mole, that's right.
• 31:55
  David Moore, who comes from a show jumping background, but is
• 31:57
  now working in the autism field.
• 31:59
  I saw you guys do a, a demo of the work, and one of the things that I
• 32:06
  found very amusing was that the horses looked so good, that, and you listeners
• 32:12
  will get a chuckle out of this.
• 32:13
  So, basically the reason why a lot of people bring their horses
• 32:16
  stubborn and show, obviously try and sell their horses, right?
• 32:18
  So the, the horses had to look fabulous, you know, huge top
• 32:21
  lines, huge muscles, da da.
• 32:24
  And so the, the child, we saw the child vision team go in to do their
• 32:29
  therapeutic riding demo on horses.
• 32:31
  That looked so good that people came up who had no idea what they
• 32:36
  were doing and said, oh, which showing class are these horses in?
• 32:39
  And are they for sale?
• 32:42
  And these were like donation throwaway horses that you guys had.
• 32:47
  Totally turned around, and looked frankly magnificent.
• 32:50
  and this of course, I was, I'm not used to seeing in the therapeutic riding world.
• 32:53
  What do you think, we can do or you can or one can do mm-hmm.
• 32:58
  To get their therapeutic places, getting their horses into meta horses like this.
• 33:07
  Because I saw how these horses arrived with you and they Yeah.
• 33:10
  Didn't look like that.
• 33:11
  And then I saw how they were a year later, while having been trained
• 33:15
  and rehabbed while serving the kids.
• 33:17
  It wasn't like you had the time and the luxury to take them out
• 33:21
  of work and build them, and then you've done it at the same time.
• 33:23
  What would you say to, people who are running therapeutic riding or even
• 33:28
  just regular riding, establishments who are, you do have this time
• 33:32
  crunch to get their horses like this?
• 33:34
  What, what's your advice?
• 33:36
  Terri Brosnan: Well, first of all, on a very basic business economic level,
• 33:41
  this is just a no-brainer for me.
• 33:44
  you know, up until, you know, a couple of years ago, people are spending money,
• 33:49
  massively on equine chiropractics.
• 33:52
  you're, you know, you're spending money on spas, equine spas.
• 33:56
  You're, you're trying to find time to school your horses there,
• 34:01
  your insurance is going through the roof because your horses are.
• 34:05
  Switched off.
• 34:07
  And accidents happen when horses are not paying attention and
• 34:10
  they're not engaged with the people that are working with them.
• 34:13
  so from a very basic economic perspective, I have a very low insurance, rate.
• 34:18
  I have really good feedback from my clients.
• 34:22
  They love being on my horses and looking up my horses.
• 34:25
  They want to be with them.
• 34:27
  I don't have big chiropractic bills.
• 34:30
  I have very small spa and chiropractic bills for my horses because they have
• 34:34
  good core strength and they are stable.
• 34:37
  So from, if you leave everything else aside, you know, if I leave all of
• 34:42
  the therapeutics, by the way, that's a
• 34:43
  Rupert Isaacson: dog in the background, everybody, sorry.
• 34:44
  It is
• 34:46
  Terri Brosnan: a very, very large dog with high heel spot clip
• 34:49
  clapping across the wooden floor.
• 34:51
  if you leave all of, if you leave the therapeutics aside, but you were in a
• 34:56
  horse business and you want your horse to turn out and be, you know, look amazing
• 35:03
  and behave amazingly, and be interested in what they're doing, then the work
• 35:10
  that we do with them is how that happens.
• 35:13
  It wa they, as you say, they weren't like that when we got them.
• 35:17
  but putting these horses together not only improves their physical
• 35:22
  attribute, but they're mentally much.
• 35:25
  More engaged.
• 35:26
  They really have a trust bond with the people that are
• 35:30
  working beside them every day.
• 35:32
  You know, they'll look to Lucy and David and myself, and they'll, you know, they'll
• 35:37
  trust us over whatever is happening on their back, which means that we
• 35:42
  can use them for very compromised kids because they're not listening to this.
• 35:47
  They're listening.
• 35:48
  They're not listening to the sky monkey, they're not listening
• 35:50
  to the person on the back.
• 35:51
  They're listening to the person at their front, at the side who's, who's
• 35:54
  going to mind them, and who's the person who puts all the work into them.
• 35:58
  and so from that basis, it's, it really is a no-brainer.
• 36:03
  and I couldn't go back to producing horses for anything in a different way, because
• 36:09
  it just wouldn't make economic sense.
• 36:12
  Rupert Isaacson: So for you, the, the, the secret is in the, the play time, loose
• 36:16
  schooling, and then also the lunging in hand and, and in, and, long reigning work.
• 36:22
  Yeah.
• 36:22
  But combining that with the clients now, can they come to you and learn this?
• 36:28
  Terri Brosnan: Absolutely.
• 36:29
  you know, we're, we're happy, happy to teach people what we're we're doing.
• 36:33
  because it's, I think when you find something that works so
• 36:37
  well, you want to pass it on.
• 36:39
  You don't want to keep it to yourself.
• 36:41
  You wanna spread the word, and you know, We're an open door.
• 36:46
  People can come in and shadow us.
• 36:49
  They can come and do courses with us.
• 36:51
  they can learn about what we do.
• 36:53
  we're, we're happy.
• 36:54
  We're really are very open campus.
• 36:57
  because the, we've nothing to hide.
• 36:59
  I think that's one of the things as well.
• 37:01
  It takes away that whole anxiety.
• 37:03
  You know, people, how do you train your horses?
• 37:06
  Is there some secret?
• 37:07
  There's no secret.
• 37:09
  This is science.
• 37:10
  This is basic good horsemanship, teaching your horse new tricks, keeping them
• 37:16
  engaged, doing with your horse is what you would love people to do with your kids.
• 37:21
  Yeah.
• 37:22
  Keeping them interested.
• 37:24
  Learning, moving, supple, happy, engaged.
• 37:30
  Rupert Isaacson: So this what this sounds like, you, you, you, you, there's some
• 37:35
  sounds like conflict resolution to me.
• 37:37
  so you've got, you've got time conflict resolved.
• 37:42
  Yeah.
• 37:43
  You've got a seeming conflict between the sport or performance horse aspect
• 37:50
  and the therapeutic aspect result.
• 37:53
  Mm-hmm.
• 37:53
  You've got, can we have horses in a city versus country seemingly resolved?
• 37:59
  and also looking for resolution through what you're doing through equine assisted
• 38:02
  island and the, these courses for young professionals with horse sport island.
• 38:09
  I know that you have a bit of a background in conflict resolution,
• 38:15
  that's a little bit unusual.
• 38:17
  Would you tell us, cuz it, because I think those stories would really help
• 38:22
  inform people of how you've managed to come up with this rather revolutionary.
• 38:30
  Yeah, yeah.
• 38:31
  Terri Brosnan: I have, I have a brain that is tuned to conflict.
• 38:35
  I suppose I grew up, , in the north of Ireland, between, I was born in
• 38:40
  1969, just after the trouble started.
• 38:44
  and I lived there until I was 10 years old, 11 years of age in 1981.
• 38:48
  Now,
• 38:49
  Rupert Isaacson: just before you go on, not everyone who's listening knows
• 38:52
  what the troubles were and that's, it doesn't sound like a very big word.
• 38:57
  Terri Brosnan: It's, it's a very small word to describe an apartheid system.
• 39:03
  Okay.
• 39:03
  so in the north of Ireland, there were two opposing, factions.
• 39:09
  Very divided between what was seen as the Catholic Irish Republican, faction and
• 39:16
  the Protestant unionist with, that's a union with the uk, and wanting to still
• 39:22
  be part of the UK government and monarchy.
• 39:25
  these were people who had originally been, asked to come and settle
• 39:30
  the land in Northern Ireland, from Scotland, from England.
• 39:33
  they had been given this land to settle and to organize, centuries before.
• 39:39
  So they were at odds with each other because the people who had come
• 39:42
  in, been given the land, had taken it off the existing inhabitants.
• 39:47
  they had organized all of the businesses, and the economics so
• 39:52
  that they benefited only and that the indigenous pop, indigenous
• 39:57
  population couldn't benefit from it.
• 40:00
  and, and that obviously leads to conflict.
• 40:04
  however, you also have a situation where people have to live side by
• 40:10
  side, and they've defined a way of, regardless of their internal politics
• 40:16
  or even their external politics, of finding a way of smiling and nodding
• 40:20
  at people across the counter in a, in a, in a day-to-day situation.
• 40:25
  and.
• 40:27
  I have great observation skills, so I, I spent my childhood watching these
• 40:31
  interactions, and watching people who I knew were in opposition to
• 40:38
  each other, having to go about their day-to-day lives in some somewhat of
• 40:44
  a hand in glove way, and yet being at very opposing ends of the spectrum.
• 40:50
  And it was fascinating how that
• 40:52
  Rupert Isaacson: might turned.
• 40:52
  Well, that makes it sound like sort of village or o office politics.
• 40:57
  This is not what was going on.
• 40:58
  The, the, the, the troubles for tho for those listeners who, dunno, what happened
• 41:02
  was it erupted into enormous violence.
• 41:05
  Yes.
• 41:05
  and not, not
• 41:06
  Terri Brosnan: British army were sent in to the British Army,
• 41:09
  were sent in to qam the violence.
• 41:11
  It started with, peaceful marches, people looking for, civil rights,
• 41:16
  effectively, the, the Catholics
• 41:18
  Rupert Isaacson: looking for civil rights
• 41:19
  Terri Brosnan: effectively.
• 41:19
  Catholics looking for civil rights.
• 41:21
  and, the English government going, oh, well, we can't have them taking over.
• 41:25
  Because the English government had a vested interest in supplying the unionist
• 41:30
  population, the, the Protestant population with money and jobs and keeping the
• 41:35
  governing Northern Ireland, keeping it all of their income in the UK tax coffers.
• 41:41
  and so they said, look, we will support you guys.
• 41:44
  We'll send in the Army to keep the peace in inverted commas.
• 41:47
  and so in 1969, they sent paratroopers onto the streets of Belfast, and
• 41:53
  violence erupted on a grand scale, because, Catholic, people were
• 41:59
  already living in enclaves and, very poor economic and, situations.
• 42:05
  They were at the end of their tether, tether.
• 42:07
  They could not earn a living, successfully.
• 42:10
  They couldn't get out of the situation they were in, because all
• 42:14
  of very, like a apartheid in South Africa, all of the, power was in the
• 42:19
  hands of the unionist population.
• 42:21
  tell
• 42:22
  Rupert Isaacson: us about the violence.
• 42:23
  How did the violence manifest itself?
• 42:24
  What, what happened?
• 42:26
  Terri Brosnan: Oh, So, yeah, this is a, it's a, it's a thing.
• 42:29
  It's funny to to think about it now.
• 42:33
  It's, there were bombs all the time.
• 42:36
  There were bomb scares every day.
• 42:39
  So you might be in a shop and just be asked to leave, put down everything
• 42:43
  you've, you've done and walk out the door.
• 42:46
  you got searched every time you went into a public building.
• 42:49
  Any public building, could be a library, could be a shop, anywhere where other
• 42:55
  people went into the door as well.
• 42:57
  You could be, bodily searched at every entrance to the shop.
• 43:03
  your handbag was looked in.
• 43:05
  your shopping bags were examined every time you went into a shop.
• 43:09
  and
• 43:09
  Rupert Isaacson: bombs were going off, right?
• 43:10
  Yes.
• 43:11
  Bombs were actually exploding.
• 43:13
  Yep.
• 43:13
  And killing
• 43:13
  Terri Brosnan: people.
• 43:14
  Yep.
• 43:15
  People were being kidnapped, people were being shot, people were being disappeared.
• 43:20
  and it may, it was happening and it didn't always happen so close to home,
• 43:27
  but it was happening all around you.
• 43:29
  The funny thing that always springs to mind when, when I talk about this
• 43:33
  is there was an announcement used to be made around about six o'clock
• 43:37
  or seven o'clock in the evening.
• 43:38
  It would just come on in the middle of TV programs on your tv and it would,
• 43:41
  people would say, will all key holders in a certain area please return to their.
• 43:47
  Shops.
• 43:48
  And that was because there had been a fire bomb or there had been,
• 43:52
  there was a bomb scare in the area.
• 43:54
  And, and my, my father was a business owner, so he would often have to get up,
• 44:00
  drive back into Belfast, go and open the shop or do whatever was required of him.
• 44:07
  And people lived like this all the
• 44:09
  Rupert Isaacson: time now.
• 44:10
  Okay.
• 44:10
  So your father was a business owner through Yes.
• 44:13
  So you, and you were a child through this thing with bombs going
• 44:16
  off, people targeting businesses.
• 44:18
  And one of the things I know happened, was that both sides ended up behaving
• 44:24
  somewhat criminally and Yeah.
• 44:26
  And getting protection rackets going where they would go and say,
• 44:31
  well, we will burn your shop or we'll bomb your shop or whatever.
• 44:35
  or we'll kill you if you, you don't pay us protection money.
• 44:36
  You don't pay us protection money, which we'll use to supposedly
• 44:39
  for our, our, our cause.
• 44:42
  Our cause.
• 44:42
  But actually we're gonna, you know, use to, yeah.
• 44:44
  yeah.
• 44:45
  What happened to your dad?
• 44:47
  Was he caught up in this?
• 44:49
  Terri Brosnan: Yes.
• 44:49
  So he had an off license.
• 44:51
  Rupert Isaacson: what's an off
• 44:51
  Terri Brosnan: license for those who are not British?
• 44:53
  Oh, , where you sell beer and wine.
• 44:55
  A liquor store?
• 44:55
  yeah.
• 44:56
  Liquor store, exactly.
• 44:57
  In the States, the liquor store.
• 44:58
  In, in, in, in Australia it's an an offie.
• 45:02
  So
• 45:04
  Rupert Isaacson: license to sell alcohol off premises.
• 45:06
  Absent off, off license.
• 45:07
  Okay.
• 45:07
  Off
• 45:07
  Terri Brosnan: license.
• 45:08
  And so, he had been in the wine trade all of his life.
• 45:13
  really enjoyed that end.
• 45:15
  Had a barn restaurant in a, in a village.
• 45:18
  And he knew instinctively that actually the area that he was looking at to
• 45:24
  set up this off license would be, was a developing up and coming area.
• 45:28
  And he thought, I know that needs an off license.
• 45:31
  And he was right, it did, maybe just not at that time.
• 45:35
  So he, he put this off license in what was effectively an old part
• 45:40
  of the markets area of off Belfast.
• 45:42
  and, it was right between two areas.
• 45:46
  one was Protestant, one was Catholic.
• 45:48
  So both factions would come, knock on his door, hold ho, hold him up with guns,
• 45:53
  bombs, and demand money with menaces.
• 45:56
  and so he had, he had three or four bad incidences, where he
• 46:04
  just avoided being seriously hurt.
• 46:07
  Rupert Isaacson: there's one you told me about.
• 46:10
  Terri Brosnan: About, oh, the guys with the, with the barber, the ceiling.
• 46:13
  Rupert Isaacson: Please tell us that story so solicits can get
• 46:17
  an idea of how extreme this was.
• 46:19
  Terri Brosnan: So they came in, one had a gun.
• 46:21
  So he hold, holds my dad up and he says, you know, just don't make any false moves.
• 46:25
  Don't ring anybody, don't shout.
• 46:27
  and he sent the other guy up to plant an incendiary device, which obviously
• 46:31
  a bottle shop is a great place to plant an incendiary device cuz you're
• 46:34
  gonna have lots of, you're gonna have lots of glass flying everywhere.
• 46:39
  and so he sends them upstairs into the, store area, and there's this and the
• 46:47
  floor, the ceiling literally comes down near the floor and goes back up again.
• 46:52
  Really
• 46:52
  Rupert Isaacson: it's obvious that this, the ceiling goes,
• 46:54
  goes down, it comes back up.
• 46:56
  Yeah.
• 46:56
  Most people never see that in, in their life.
• 46:59
  I know.
• 46:59
  It
• 46:59
  Terri Brosnan: just go and the, the, the reaction from the floor back up again.
• 47:04
  So it just, and, and the guy who's holding my dad up says, walk.
• 47:08
  Don't run to the guy upstairs.
• 47:12
  He's s scuffling out.
• 47:14
  The incendiary device had gone on under his arm, got off under his arm
• 47:18
  and it, he, he was missing part of his limb and the other guy grabs him.
• 47:23
  The two of them make it out onto the street and they get away.
• 47:26
  And this guy's
• 47:27
  Rupert Isaacson: like holding it his seven arm.
• 47:28
  Yes.
• 47:29
  Yeah.
• 47:30
  Blood spurting
• 47:32
  Terri Brosnan: never caught.
• 47:34
  Rupert Isaacson: Incredible.
• 47:35
  Got into, and this was just, this was just one of several incidents.
• 47:38
  Terri Brosnan: One of several incidents.
• 47:40
  so yeah, it wasn't a place to have a successful business in the seventies.
• 47:45
  It just wasn't possible.
• 47:46
  Now
• 47:47
  Rupert Isaacson: how were you getting into horses mm-hmm.
• 47:51
  While you were living effectively in a war zone in Belfast during the troubles?
• 47:56
  What, what, what was happening that you could do that?
• 47:59
  So,
• 47:59
  Terri Brosnan: it's interesting, you know, my dad had, he has this
• 48:03
  vision for, an amazing place.
• 48:05
  he wanted to set up a hotel that also had a riding stables, along
• 48:10
  a river, in a beautiful place called Newcastle and County down.
• 48:15
  And he had bought the hotel sale, ended up falling through 1974.
• 48:20
  but he had this vision and he, he knew that this was what something
• 48:23
  that people would love to do.
• 48:26
  and he said, you know what, you, you would love to be on horses.
• 48:30
  And at the age of five, I was sent, onto the back of this little Shetland
• 48:35
  pony with my brother, and he hated it.
• 48:38
  And he fell off the first day.
• 48:40
  And I loved it and I couldn't get enough of it.
• 48:43
  and so it was a priority.
• 48:44
  My dad just went, yeah, do you know what you're gonna do this?
• 48:47
  So he sent me every week, And it, you know, it was one of the, the, it was the
• 48:52
  light in my life, in the maddest of times.
• 48:56
  It was the thing that kept me going.
• 48:58
  Right.
• 48:58
  Because
• 48:59
  Rupert Isaacson: Belfast itself as a city was not so big.
• 49:01
  So you could get out of it to the countryside relatively quickly.
• 49:03
  Absolutely.
• 49:04
  Terri Brosnan: Yeah.
• 49:04
  Really, really easily.
• 49:06
  Rupert Isaacson: and so this craziness is going on where you are living.
• 49:10
  Terri Brosnan: Yeah.
• 49:11
  And you need to get away from
• 49:12
  Rupert Isaacson: it.
• 49:12
  Okay.
• 49:13
  That makes sense.
• 49:14
  But it's not just
• 49:15
  Terri Brosnan: going on, it's not just going on where you're living.
• 49:17
  It's going on around the families that you're living with.
• 49:21
  Mm-hmm.
• 49:21
  The people you're in school with, you know, it may not be happening in your
• 49:26
  home, but it's happening in their home.
• 49:27
  It's happening in your family.
• 49:29
  Extended families lives.
• 49:31
  It affected everybody.
• 49:32
  It's a very small area.
• 49:34
  I mean, we've less than a million people at the time in Northern
• 49:36
  Ireland and over six counties.
• 49:40
  and so, you know, a dispersed population, very few of them in the city.
• 49:45
  Rupert Isaacson: So obviously, this is not really a healthy environment, if you can
• 49:49
  possibly get out of it, to bring up kids.
• 49:51
  what did your dad do?
• 49:53
  How did he handle that dilemma?
• 49:56
  Terri Brosnan: So in interestingly, he had, through, through all of this trouble
• 50:01
  in, in the off license, he'd ended up, one of his bank businesses had gone bankrupt.
• 50:05
  He was working for other people.
• 50:08
  And it was 1980s, , Thatcher government in the uk.
• 50:13
  lots of economic hardship across the uk.
• 50:17
  so he had lost a job that he had.
• 50:20
  and during the day when he was unemployed, he used to go down to the library
• 50:23
  and look at all of the newspapers that they had for possible jobs.
• 50:28
  And one of them was for a job on a stud farm in county temporary.
• 50:33
  and he clipped it out, brought it home, and he said, oh my goodness, look at this.
• 50:38
  Wouldn't this be amazing?
• 50:39
  and on a whim, he applied for the job.
• 50:42
  It was a job of, effectively, house manager butler to an American
• 50:48
  multimillionaire who ran a stud farm.
• 50:51
  In the most beautiful county in Ireland, in temporary, and in
• 50:55
  Rupert Isaacson: Southern Ireland.
• 50:56
  Not in Northern Ireland.
• 50:57
  In Southern Ireland.
• 50:57
  Terri Brosnan: Away from the troubles.
• 50:59
  Away from the troubles.
• 51:00
  And he got the job.
• 51:03
  and he went down to try it out for a couple of months,
• 51:06
  and things were escalating.
• 51:09
  The hunger strikes were ongoing in, Belfast at the time.
• 51:13
  These were political prisoners, hunger striking for political, political
• 51:17
  prisoner status and recognition by the uk, which was not happening.
• 51:22
  they had been on dirty protests and they had gone on
• 51:24
  to, , starvation, hunger strike.
• 51:27
  and so tensions were incredibly high, and we couldn't really wait to get out.
• 51:35
  it was getting closer and closer.
• 51:36
  My, my parents were really concerned.
• 51:38
  My older brother was at, you know, he's 13, 14, very vulnerable age
• 51:45
  when you're seeing all of this tension around you community-wise.
• 51:48
  and we had arranged to leave in May of 1981, and the day we moved house
• 51:57
  was the day that Bobby Sands died.
• 51:59
  Rupert Isaacson: One of the may.
• 51:59
  Tell us who, yeah.
• 52:00
  Tell us who Bobby Sands was and why that was important.
• 52:03
  He
• 52:03
  Terri Brosnan: was one of the main hunger strikers.
• 52:05
  and on the Catholic end, on the, yeah, Catholic end.
• 52:08
  He, he was in the Mays prison and he was, Protesting peacefully for political
• 52:16
  prisoner status of recognition that these people were not just, were not criminals.
• 52:22
  That they were there because they were engaged in, conflict.
• 52:28
  That a political conflict with, the current regime in the north of Ireland.
• 52:34
  and it wasn't being recognized.
• 52:37
  so they'd been arrested.
• 52:38
  A lot of them had been interned without trial.
• 52:41
  and then they took things as far as they could.
• 52:46
  They stopped wearing clothes.
• 52:47
  They started, stopped using toilet facilities.
• 52:51
  and they smeared their excrement on the walls in the, in the, the prison
• 52:55
  in order to highlight their plight.
• 52:57
  and eventually the only thing they could resort to was hunger strike.
• 53:00
  and so they did.
• 53:01
  and several of them died, and Bobby Sands had stood as an MP for his
• 53:09
  area, and it was unheard of that a member of parliament, parliament
• 53:15
  of the UK parliament would be on hunger strike and then subsequently
• 53:19
  die, from that hunger strike.
• 53:22
  And it was just insane.
• 53:25
  The place went up like a Tinder kick.
• 53:28
  Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
• 53:28
  So then it really erupted the violence.
• 53:30
  I remember this.
• 53:32
  yeah.
• 53:33
  Cause bombs were going off.
• 53:33
  I was brought up in London.
• 53:34
  Bombs were going off in London at that time as well.
• 53:37
  Terri Brosnan: I remember we're driving, we're driving outta Dodge
• 53:40
  with all of our stuff on our back.
• 53:42
  Rupert Isaacson: Literally.
• 53:42
  So your dad gets this job?
• 53:44
  Yeah.
• 53:44
  In the south hundred.
• 53:45
  150 miles or more away from Yeah, all of this.
• 53:49
  Terri Brosnan: We leave the day that this all erupts.
• 53:51
  We're leaving.
• 53:52
  Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
• 53:52
  Leaving as literally the buildings are burning around you.
• 53:54
  You are driving out.
• 53:56
  It's
• 53:56
  Terri Brosnan: an interesting Yeah, it was an interesting day.
• 53:58
  Good lord.
• 53:58
  and we arrived to a very rural, very bucolic, south County
• 54:04
  temporary stud farm, you know, three or four miles from any town.
• 54:10
  It's all very quiet, and very different lifestyle.
• 54:14
  Very different lifestyle.
• 54:15
  Rupert Isaacson: And that's where your horse career really took
• 54:17
  Terri Brosnan: off.
• 54:18
  Yeah, absolutely.
• 54:19
  I had the most amazing luxury of these fun, fantastic people
• 54:24
  who had stunning horse knowledge and who wanted to pass it on.
• 54:29
  and this was the crim Carol family.
• 54:31
  Amazing family in temporary, me under their wing and taught me everything.
• 54:35
  I know.
• 54:36
  They were incredible.
• 54:37
  and I was like a little sponge.
• 54:39
  I just couldn't wait to learn more and more and more.
• 54:41
  and, yeah, it was an amazing education.
• 54:45
  So
• 54:46
  Rupert Isaacson: you then grow up and go through your adolescence, become, get into
• 54:52
  the horse world, become a professional, , something is intriguing me here though.
• 54:57
  Okay.
• 54:58
  We've talked about your, your background with conflict and looking for resolution
• 55:03
  within conflict, and perhaps that being something of an instinct, because you
• 55:07
  would've, as a kid, been having to negotiate that whole system of in school,
• 55:14
  in the shops in family while all this stuff was going on in Northern Ireland.
• 55:19
  then suddenly you find yourself in horse paradise.
• 55:22
  Yes.
• 55:22
  but something else that I'm dictator, detecting rather down in, in what you've
• 55:29
  been doing within the equine assisted world is there's a system to it.
• 55:35
  Like you, you identified a problem which was fragmentation, factionalism
• 55:41
  people from one area of therapeutic writing saying, oh, there's not
• 55:47
  so good to the other people.
• 55:48
  Which I guess if you're coming out of the troubles in Northern Ireland, if you can
• 55:52
  put it in perspective and say, well, yeah, at least you're not planting a century
• 55:55
  bombs in each other, in each other's.
• 55:57
  Yeah.
• 55:57
  This is small potatoes, guys.
• 55:58
  You get over yourself.
• 56:00
  Right.
• 56:00
  I get, I mean, you useful, a useful perspective to come from.
• 56:03
  and then, but this thing about, you know, looking for the system of, you know,
• 56:07
  lunging in hand long reigning to, and play to get the, keep the horses happy.
• 56:13
  Yeah.
• 56:13
  Muscled and supple and.
• 56:15
  And then looking for how to incorporate that into the session
• 56:19
  so there's no time conflict.
• 56:21
  And then looking at, you know, how to create these courses with Horse Sport
• 56:24
  Island, this is all very systematic.
• 56:26
  Where does your systems thinking come from?
• 56:30
  Terri Brosnan: Oh, so interestingly, although my dad had this amazing
• 56:33
  idea that I would get to involved in all these horses, he didn't
• 56:37
  want me doing it as a job.
• 56:39
  He was like, you know, there's no money in horses.
• 56:41
  Don't, don't ever work with horses.
• 56:43
  There's no money in it.
• 56:44
  Unless you have a lot of money to start with.
• 56:47
  You're gonna end up with absolutely no money.
• 56:49
  You're not gonna get paid for the work that you do.
• 56:51
  and in lots of ways, he wasn't wrong.
• 56:54
  particularly in Ireland, you know, you, you need to come for money
• 56:58
  in order to have and continue to have horses successfully over time.
• 57:03
  it's something that eats at your money rather than earning you money on,
• 57:06
  unless you're at the very high end.
• 57:08
  And then it kind of produces money for itself.
• 57:11
  so he said to me, look, you know, you're, you have a brain, like a steel trap.
• 57:16
  It just wants to learn new things.
• 57:18
  He said, why don't you go to college and do something useful?
• 57:21
  So I went, and I did, management because why that?
• 57:25
  Oh, you could have done anything very systematic, very logical.
• 57:28
  I have a very logical brain.
• 57:29
  You know me well, Rupert, I love logic.
• 57:32
  I love maths.
• 57:33
  I'm a big maths person.
• 57:35
  and so for me, the appliance of mathematics is structural engineering.
• 57:41
  and really that was what I wanted to know, but I'm, I'm also.
• 57:46
  I'm a problem solver.
• 57:47
  I, I can't just know one thing.
• 57:49
  I have to know how that one thing fits in with the next,
• 57:52
  it's like little cogs and wheels.
• 57:54
  So engineering was a perfect fit for me.
• 57:56
  and so not only engineering, but project management within construction
• 58:01
  was the area I wanted to go for.
• 58:04
  So you had to learn a little bit about architecture, a little bit, lot
• 58:06
  about structural engineering, quantity surveying, finance, economics, maths.
• 58:11
  You know, you had to, you had to have an overview.
• 58:15
  And I love an overview.
• 58:17
  I'm no good on small picture.
• 58:18
  I'm all about the big picture.
• 58:20
  and so that fascinated me.
• 58:22
  and I learned how systems went together.
• 58:25
  I learned how reliances worked.
• 58:27
  You know, if you want something to move along that you've gotta rely on other
• 58:30
  people to come in and help you out.
• 58:33
  the best practices around realizing that everything is
• 58:37
  just a part of a growing wheel.
• 58:41
  So, you know, nobody's gonna be amazing on their own.
• 58:43
  If I send you out to build a bridge, you know, over a large river and you're one
• 58:49
  man, no matter what idea you have, you're not gonna be able to make that work.
• 58:54
  You might be, but it's gonna take you an awful long time.
• 58:58
  and so I love the fact that all of these different skills could come together
• 59:03
  and make everything work much quicker.
• 59:06
  Yet they kept, you know, they kept professional boundaries.
• 59:10
  They kept, quality control going.
• 59:12
  Huge part of it.
• 59:14
  You know, you can't build a building without making sure that
• 59:16
  everything hits the quality control.
• 59:19
  and all those aspects were respected and valued on site.
• 59:24
  And I loved working in that direct, in that way.
• 59:27
  that the T boy was more important sometimes than the chief engineer,
• 59:32
  you know, cuz you can only feed an army on its stomach, like, you know.
• 59:36
  So it was really important that everybody had their role and it was valued.
• 59:42
  And I think it's something that I really value in my team as well.
• 59:47
  you know, when I have an amazing team where I work, and, and they would be an
• 59:53
  extraordinarily amazing rider and riding instructor in David Moul, but on the
• 59:59
  other end you have Lucy who is just this incredible horse, woman and a brilliant
• 1:00:06
  educator, like an extraordinary educator, and person extraordinarily brilliant
• 1:00:13
  and talented at working with children.
• 1:00:16
  And everybody brings their strengths and weaknesses to the team.
• 1:00:18
  And nobody has to do everything.
• 1:00:21
  It doesn't matter if I'm not the best rider or I'm not the best horse
• 1:00:25
  person, or I'm not the best lunger.
• 1:00:28
  We have those skills within the team.
• 1:00:30
  So it doesn't really matter.
• 1:00:31
  We can.
• 1:00:31
  Pick and choose where it works best.
• 1:00:34
  but I think that's my system's
• 1:00:36
  Rupert Isaacson: brain.
• 1:00:37
  Did you got a chance to put this into practice, I presume?
• 1:00:39
  Did you go out and work on building sites and, and Yeah, I did build
• 1:00:43
  Terri Brosnan: projects.
• 1:00:44
  I was involved in the building of a, a bridge over the
• 1:00:46
  rivers Laney in hy in Wexford.
• 1:00:49
  so this was one of the last ever, I love this, this, this work.
• 1:00:53
  It was one of the last ever cast in situ do bridges, which meant that
• 1:00:56
  we poured the concrete every day.
• 1:00:58
  We didn't, didn't just bring in, pieces that had been precast
• 1:01:02
  elsewhere and went together like Lego.
• 1:01:04
  we actually had to do a huge amount of problem solving on site.
• 1:01:07
  and we had to actually pour the concrete and deal with this
• 1:01:11
  active substance on a daily basis.
• 1:01:14
  It was fascinating.
• 1:01:15
  And you only have
• 1:01:16
  Rupert Isaacson: one chance to get it right.
• 1:01:17
  Absolutely.
• 1:01:18
  And the whole county is watching
• 1:01:21
  Terri Brosnan: every, everybody on site that day and every, the whole town is
• 1:01:25
  watching, so you don't get it wrong.
• 1:01:27
  Yeah.
• 1:01:28
  Yeah.
• 1:01:28
  That's
• 1:01:28
  Rupert Isaacson: great.
• 1:01:29
  okay, so then how did you then, you, you seem to have moved away from horses there.
• 1:01:34
  Did you keep horses going as a parallel
• 1:01:35
  Terri Brosnan: career?
• 1:01:37
  Yeah, I, I, I, I was trying to move away and go and have this career, in
• 1:01:43
  engineering and I kept being dragged back.
• 1:01:46
  so I.
• 1:01:47
  I, I, I thought, you know, I miss horses.
• 1:01:49
  I might like to ride occasionally at a weekend.
• 1:01:54
  That is a hobby.
• 1:01:55
  I know you're laughing now.
• 1:01:57
  And I, I went, literally went, rang a riding school and I said, do you, do you
• 1:02:00
  have a ride out on a, on a Sunday morning?
• 1:02:03
  and they were like, yeah, do you have much experience?
• 1:02:05
  And I said, oh, a little bit, you know, and said, what kind of experience?
• 1:02:09
  Well, I used to teach, but I, I haven't done it in a while.
• 1:02:11
  And, and they were like, oh, well, do you wanna come up
• 1:02:15
  and, and, and stay for a bit?
• 1:02:17
  so I arrived up on the Sunday morning at about 10 o'clock and left
• 1:02:20
  there like nine o'clock that night.
• 1:02:22
  And, I was immediately hooked back in.
• 1:02:24
  Within weeks I was leaving my job and going back to horses.
• 1:02:28
  So, so my dad's plans went astray and I went back to working with horses.
• 1:02:32
  And you
• 1:02:32
  Rupert Isaacson: went into the sport horse industry at that point, I presume.
• 1:02:35
  What, what, what did.
• 1:02:37
  Terri Brosnan: Mostly it was riding schools actually.
• 1:02:39
  and teaching riding, riding out, taking trekking in the Phoenix Park
• 1:02:44
  in Dublin, which is this amazing huge park, where, you know, it's beautiful.
• 1:02:49
  On a sunny day, you ride out onto this 15 acre field with people behind you.
• 1:02:55
  There are deer in the background.
• 1:02:57
  It's all very lovely until you're there in September and the deer are
• 1:03:02
  rotting, in the little gap that you have to go out into this 15 acres where
• 1:03:06
  you exercise your horses and it all becomes a little bit more problematic.
• 1:03:11
  And you learn a lot in those days.
• 1:03:13
  and you've to bring new horses on you, you know, you're having to risk assess
• 1:03:19
  people who've never been on horses before.
• 1:03:22
  Japanese tourists were an experience for me.
• 1:03:25
  Mm-hmm.
• 1:03:25
  we, we had a group of Japanese tourists.
• 1:03:26
  None of them ever held a re while they were out the entire time.
• 1:03:31
  We relied on the goodness and kindness of our horses who were amazing.
• 1:03:35
  but those kind of experiences show you where the gaps are, particularly if you
• 1:03:40
  have a brain like mine that loves to find out where, where, where the gaps are,
• 1:03:45
  what, what, what went wrong, and why, and how you could redo it a better way.
• 1:03:49
  How did you
• 1:03:49
  Rupert Isaacson: make it safe for these people who'd never been on horses to
• 1:03:52
  go out among all the rutting deer?
• 1:03:54
  Terri Brosnan: So, yeah, interestingly, and, and, and I didn't
• 1:03:57
  know as much as I do now, but our horses were really intelligent.
• 1:04:02
  Really, they trusted us.
• 1:04:04
  We worked with them day in, day out.
• 1:04:06
  So they trusted the people who worked on the ground with them.
• 1:04:10
  And we, you know, we schooled them out on the, in the Phoenix Park
• 1:04:13
  when we weren't taking tres, and they would follow nose to tail.
• 1:04:17
  They knew not to pass the lead rider.
• 1:04:20
  or they'd get growled up by the lead rider and they would stay behind us.
• 1:04:25
  They were incredibly well trained, without having a huge amount of training.
• 1:04:30
  Right.
• 1:04:30
  And they incredibly well intentioned horses
• 1:04:33
  Rupert Isaacson: actually.
• 1:04:34
  No, but you said, okay, this is effectively trekking.
• 1:04:37
  Yeah.
• 1:04:37
  But I know, I know for a fact that you, you said for example, that you
• 1:04:41
  grew up with the Kreme Carroll family.
• 1:04:44
  Yeah, yeah.
• 1:04:45
  They're they're an iconic Yeah.
• 1:04:47
  Family in the Irish horse world.
• 1:04:48
  So they, they must have taught you way beyond this.
• 1:04:52
  Absolutely.
• 1:04:53
  What was the education you went through with them?
• 1:04:55
  Terri Brosnan: So, very classical, who would've taught me most, was, would've
• 1:04:59
  been I think the first I in Ireland, BHS I, which is the full instructor
• 1:05:04
  level of the BHS exams British Sure.
• 1:05:06
  Society exams.
• 1:05:08
  and we were just really lucky to not only have that family, but again, they were
• 1:05:17
  amazing women, who wanted to learn more.
• 1:05:20
  And Michelin was never happy with, just that's the way it is.
• 1:05:24
  She wanted to know why all the time.
• 1:05:25
  So if she didn't know, if it was something she didn't know and she
• 1:05:28
  couldn't teach me, she would then look outside and she would go and learn it.
• 1:05:34
  So she did a lot of classical dress with, a Dutch rider living in Ireland
• 1:05:38
  and around Kilkenny Carmel at the time.
• 1:05:41
  van Dvar was based there.
• 1:05:44
  and, the Lum family were down the road.
• 1:05:47
  and she worked with them.
• 1:05:48
  Tell us about them who were there.
• 1:05:50
  well, William Lum is the, the person most people would associate, with them.
• 1:05:54
  Now William is the one of the sons, his dad was an amazing horseman.
• 1:05:58
  They were Dutch family living again outside of, Tom Allen Re,
• 1:06:03
  and fantastic horse knowledge.
• 1:06:05
  Rupert Isaacson: What discipline were they, were they in?
• 1:06:07
  Mostly dressage
• 1:06:08
  Terri Brosnan: and show jumping.
• 1:06:09
  Okay.
• 1:06:10
  but, but you know, really well-rounded ac I think a lot of the people I was lucky
• 1:06:16
  enough to come across at that stage, started off as three day Advers, knew
• 1:06:23
  that the whole, picture of your horse depended on, you know, you wanted to
• 1:06:29
  have a horse who could do everything.
• 1:06:31
  And who was fit,
• 1:06:31
  Rupert Isaacson: I guess.
• 1:06:32
  Terri Brosnan: Yeah, absolutely.
• 1:06:33
  and so those were the days of eventing, did roads and tracks.
• 1:06:36
  Mm-hmm.
• 1:06:37
  So, you know, you did, you did steeplechase roads and tracks,
• 1:06:40
  you also did cross country.
• 1:06:42
  You did dress out and your horse had to be supple, collectible, expandable,
• 1:06:47
  jump, do everything speed up, really go fast, come back, you know, so they
• 1:06:53
  trained their horses for that work.
• 1:06:56
  and they didn't want to just train, show jumpers.
• 1:06:59
  I think there wasn't a market for pure show jumpers at that stage.
• 1:07:02
  Mm.
• 1:07:02
  In Ireland.
• 1:07:03
  Definitely.
• 1:07:04
  So they had to produce these really well-rounded horses that would do whatever
• 1:07:08
  the market demanded them to, to do.
• 1:07:11
  Mm.
• 1:07:11
  So we learned everything so versatility, basically.
• 1:07:14
  Absolutely.
• 1:07:15
  Yeah.
• 1:07:16
  I mean, we were looking at that time at Irish draft horses and Irish sport
• 1:07:20
  horses, which came from the idea of having a horse that would drive you to mass.
• 1:07:24
  You could, you know, ride, , afterwards and it was, you
• 1:07:29
  know, it would also plow your
• 1:07:31
  Rupert Isaacson: fields and then you go hunting on it at, on a Saturday.
• 1:07:34
  Absolutely.
• 1:07:35
  Right.
• 1:07:35
  Yeah.
• 1:07:35
  Up all the big banks.
• 1:07:36
  Absolutely.
• 1:07:36
  Terri Brosnan: Yeah.
• 1:07:37
  Yeah.
• 1:07:38
  It had to do everything and that, that ethos permeated the entire
• 1:07:42
  equine industry here in Ireland.
• 1:07:44
  Mm-hmm.
• 1:07:45
  Was don't specialize, generalize, we're too small to specialize.
• 1:07:49
  Mm-hmm.
• 1:07:51
  You know, so we need to produce these horses that can do
• 1:07:53
  Rupert Isaacson: everything.
• 1:07:54
  So now let's just jump ahead to Child Vision, where you are now.
• 1:07:58
  fitness is a really interesting thing because o obviously, you know, for many of
• 1:08:01
  us, we'd say, okay, well that's hill work.
• 1:08:03
  Or that's, you know, a lot of, trail riding at the trot.
• 1:08:06
  You know, get your horses fit, get them hard fit in the tendons as well.
• 1:08:10
  Da da da da da.
• 1:08:12
  Well, you can't really do that where you are.
• 1:08:14
  You're, it's just for li No, we have no room, no.
• 1:08:17
  For listeners who, dunno where she's, you think Drumcondra in, in Dublin.
• 1:08:21
  It's not greenfields and leprechauns if, or there might be leprechauns.
• 1:08:25
  No, but they're living in, in tower blocks.
• 1:08:27
  It's Sydney Center, right?
• 1:08:29
  It's, it's, it's the city center of a, of a large European city with
• 1:08:34
  a couple of million people in it.
• 1:08:35
  So,
• 1:08:36
  Terri Brosnan: and it's, it's not the Hyde Park end of a city center.
• 1:08:40
  Right.
• 1:08:40
  It's not the Shali end of the city center.
• 1:08:43
  No, it is in the real core.
• 1:08:46
  Rupert Isaacson: Right.
• 1:08:47
  It's not the Phoenix Park that she was talking about.
• 1:08:49
  Yeah.
• 1:08:50
  It's, it's no, like I said, if there's leprechauns, they're
• 1:08:51
  living in tower blocks.
• 1:08:53
  Absolutely.
• 1:08:54
  How are you keeping your horses fit there?
• 1:08:58
  Terri Brosnan: We're, we're working them.
• 1:08:59
  We're lunging them, we're riding them.
• 1:09:01
  We are we working them in hand and long reigning them.
• 1:09:04
  We don't have the space.
• 1:09:05
  Everything has to be done on a micro basis.
• 1:09:08
  Mm.
• 1:09:09
  You know, so you've gotta be
• 1:09:10
  Rupert Isaacson: free.
• 1:09:10
  So they're better in the gym
• 1:09:11
  Terri Brosnan: the whole time.
• 1:09:13
  Absolutely.
• 1:09:14
  You've gotta find the smallest amount of space that you
• 1:09:16
  can do the most amount with.
• 1:09:18
  So we don't even have, you know, we don't have a gallop track.
• 1:09:21
  We don't have, yeah.
• 1:09:22
  We've had to make, do amend.
• 1:09:24
  I recently had a visit from, a college in Northern Ireland coming down to
• 1:09:28
  see what we were doing, and they said, when we talk to you and you tell us
• 1:09:33
  about what you do, it, it, we thought we were coming to this huge place.
• 1:09:37
  And you, you, it's so tiny.
• 1:09:39
  It was like,
• 1:09:40
  Rupert Isaacson: yeah, it's really tiny.
• 1:09:40
  Yeah, it's really tiny.
• 1:09:42
  So even within this tiny postage stamp that you've got, I know that you have
• 1:09:46
  a trail around a sports field as well.
• 1:09:49
  Yeah.
• 1:09:49
  which you've gotta share with the rugby players and the Yes, we do.
• 1:09:53
  but honors today, yeah.
• 1:09:55
  I've seen your horses and they are muscled and magnificent.
• 1:09:59
  So would you be available, for example, if there are, if there are people
• 1:10:05
  listening saying, well, gosh, you know, I, I don't really have a lot of space.
• 1:10:09
  what absolutely, what can I do?
• 1:10:11
  Would you be able to mentor them in, in a program of fitness and
• 1:10:14
  lunging and, and that sort of thing that you can use a small space
• 1:10:18
  Terri Brosnan: for?
• 1:10:19
  I, I mean, realistically for, for us, the big key to this
• 1:10:24
  was the in-hand work that yoga.
• 1:10:27
  I mean, you know, if you have a bathroom that is only as wide as
• 1:10:31
  your arms, And as long as your body, you have enough space to do yoga in.
• 1:10:37
  and, and we would feel the same about the horses.
• 1:10:39
  So the in-hand work, the suppleness work, that all happens
• 1:10:44
  in a relatively short space.
• 1:10:46
  You don't even need a 20 meter circle to do this work in,
• 1:10:51
  you can do it in the yard.
• 1:10:53
  you know, up and down between the boxes.
• 1:10:55
  We can, we can work in a very small space with this.
• 1:10:58
  and actually sometimes it really helps to work in a small space because it helps
• 1:11:02
  the horse to have a direction to move in.
• 1:11:04
  but yeah, all that supple work, it's yoga for horses.
• 1:11:08
  and so our horses are supple.
• 1:11:10
  When they're supple, it's easier.
• 1:11:12
  They're building muscle because they're relaxed.
• 1:11:16
  There's no tension, there's no stress in the body.
• 1:11:19
  and they're able to, they're, they're getting, they're feeling better.
• 1:11:23
  So they're feeling like they can move their shoulders a little bit more.
• 1:11:27
  They're feeling like they can move their hindquarters a little bit more.
• 1:11:30
  When they feel like that and you put them on the lunge, they are starting to get
• 1:11:35
  that hind leg further underneath them.
• 1:11:37
  They're starting to feel good about themselves the way we do when we
• 1:11:41
  are more supple and more agile.
• 1:11:44
  and you get the same response.
• 1:11:45
  They're more willing to take a leap to go and, and and go that
• 1:11:49
  extra mile cuz it feels good.
• 1:11:51
  It doesn't feel hard.
• 1:11:53
  Rupert Isaacson: How do you avoid, I mean, horses still need to get
• 1:11:56
  out there and eat grass, you know?
• 1:11:57
  Sooner or later.
• 1:11:58
  And I, I remember when I was a kid in London, when, 500 years ago, there
• 1:12:02
  were actually quite a lot of horses in the city then, rag and bone men.
• 1:12:06
  the, the, the, all the breweries had drays delivering the barrels of beer pooled
• 1:12:12
  by magnificent, teams of shy horses.
• 1:12:15
  They obviously all the police horses, but they're also, like a lot of the
• 1:12:19
  old cab drivers came from families that had, had ha had, had hackney cabs.
• 1:12:24
  Yeah.
• 1:12:24
  and still had a tradition of carriage driving in their spare time and kept their
• 1:12:28
  horses in muses, you know, urban stables.
• 1:12:31
  Yeah.
• 1:12:31
  in the middle of the city.
• 1:12:32
  So interestingly that, that was how, but they, they, they would
• 1:12:35
  send their horses out, yeah.
• 1:12:36
  For grazing a certain amount of time in the summer to the counties around.
• 1:12:40
  What do you do for your horses for this?
• 1:12:43
  Well,
• 1:12:43
  Terri Brosnan: well, were we in the same situation here in, in Dublin when
• 1:12:45
  I moved, into Dublin from Tip Prairie.
• 1:12:48
  and actually the horse industry in Dublin was full of those guys who
• 1:12:53
  were, carriage drivers, dray drivers, and they, they were some of the first
• 1:12:58
  people that I got to know in the city center, around horses in the city center.
• 1:13:03
  And so when I had this problem of working in a stables in the middle
• 1:13:07
  of the city center, no turnout or very limited turnout, I went, what?
• 1:13:12
  How do I get my horses outta grass?
• 1:13:14
  and I went back to these guys who, you know, and I said, you
• 1:13:17
  know, guys, what, what do you do?
• 1:13:18
  What are you doing?
• 1:13:20
  And I remembered, one, one particular family, the good family.
• 1:13:23
  and, and they would always, they were big into their horses, went outta grass.
• 1:13:28
  The minute they weren't being used, they went outta grass, you know,
• 1:13:31
  if they weren't interacting with humans, they went out, got downtime,
• 1:13:35
  got to be horses away from humans.
• 1:13:38
  And so that was, you know, I I, I spoke to Ben and Val about this, Ben and Val.
• 1:13:42
  Good.
• 1:13:43
  And I said, where were they?
• 1:13:44
  Where can I, who were Ben and Val?
• 1:13:45
  Good.
• 1:13:45
  The, these are, these are the guys that I'd met who were carriage
• 1:13:48
  drivers in Dublin City Center.
• 1:13:50
  Okay.
• 1:13:51
  Values used to drive the Guinness carriage.
• 1:13:53
  Ben used to drive the Lord Mayor's carriage.
• 1:13:55
  So they were great men to us.
• 1:13:57
  They were great mentors.
• 1:13:58
  and so, you know, they said, go to me because that's the place for
• 1:14:03
  the best grass nearest to Dublin.
• 1:14:04
  And it's the next county up.
• 1:14:06
  and the soil is fantastic.
• 1:14:08
  And that was where they had put their horses.
• 1:14:11
  and so we went to Ashburn in meth and we rented land.
• 1:14:15
  It was one of the first things I did when I moved into, working in that
• 1:14:18
  yard, in television, in Dublin, because they just didn't have enough grass.
• 1:14:23
  Okay.
• 1:14:23
  and there was no way I could sit there with these horses and look at them never
• 1:14:29
  getting out for a really good grass.
• 1:14:32
  Rupert Isaacson: And how far are these pastures that you rented?
• 1:14:35
  In county me from drum condra, where in the city center,
• 1:14:38
  Terri Brosnan: they're about 35 kilometers away.
• 1:14:41
  so it's a sh you know, it's, it's not even an hour with the Horsebox.
• 1:14:45
  and so we, we, we take them out as often as we can.
• 1:14:50
  Rupert Isaacson: Do you have a sort of a pattern to it of rotation?
• 1:14:53
  Yeah, we,
• 1:14:53
  Terri Brosnan: I mean, we have two weeks in the summer, two weeks at Christmas.
• 1:14:55
  We'll go for a week at Easter and a week at Halloween as well.
• 1:14:58
  Around October, no, September, October time.
• 1:15:01
  and more if it becomes available, if any horse is not doing well, we stop
• 1:15:06
  the work and we put them outta grass.
• 1:15:08
  If they're for any reason, they're not going to be working,
• 1:15:12
  we put them out to grass.
• 1:15:14
  so it, it's our default place.
• 1:15:15
  It's our rest home, it's our downtime if we get a long weekend, and it's
• 1:15:20
  more than just the Monday off, we might have the Friday off as well.
• 1:15:23
  Horses go to grass.
• 1:15:24
  Okay.
• 1:15:24
  So it's, it's, it, it's where we possibly can.
• 1:15:27
  and we'll rotate them as well.
• 1:15:29
  So to give one rest and bring one in so that they're coming in fresh all the time.
• 1:15:34
  I had a horse out last week, because he just needed some downtime.
• 1:15:39
  he needed to just lie in the sun and be a horse.
• 1:15:42
  and he's come back in great form.
• 1:15:44
  you know, and a week of that is really good.
• 1:15:48
  It's like ourselves when we go on holidays.
• 1:15:50
  You don't necessarily need two months holidays cuz you enjoy
• 1:15:54
  your work, but you do need to get away from it on a regular basis.
• 1:15:58
  Yeah.
• 1:15:58
  And you need to know that you can come back into it.
• 1:16:00
  Lots of short
• 1:16:01
  Rupert Isaacson: breaks rather than Yeah, absolutely.
• 1:16:02
  Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 1:16:03
  No, I, I, I, I think that's very, very important.
• 1:16:06
  You know, I, I've, I've, in the course of the horse boy work, I've
• 1:16:09
  been lucky enough to work with some people who work in, urban settings.
• 1:16:13
  Obviously you, a a great go Mandy in, in Amsterdam, who is in a, again, a
• 1:16:19
  very small patch, other, other places.
• 1:16:22
  And of course they always battle to find the areas outside of
• 1:16:26
  the city where they can get to, but all of them prioritized it.
• 1:16:30
  and it seems to be, as you say, the magic formula.
• 1:16:34
  obviously you need all that good type of work you were talking about, but Yeah,
• 1:16:37
  just for, for the brain and the, and the nervous system and the gut, you know,
• 1:16:40
  just to be able to go out to grass and, as you say, not deal with humans for a bit.
• 1:16:45
  Well, I, I think until they present themselves at the
• 1:16:47
  gate and say, no, I'm ready to
• 1:16:48
  Terri Brosnan: come back.
• 1:16:49
  Yeah, absolutely.
• 1:16:50
  We, we, I mean we, we mustn't forget our horses work.
• 1:16:54
  They are working horses.
• 1:16:56
  They're not leisure horses.
• 1:16:57
  They do a job.
• 1:16:59
  and it's really important that they get downtime.
• 1:17:01
  Like us.
• 1:17:02
  They can't, you can't give from an empty cup, and our horses
• 1:17:05
  can't give from an empty cup.
• 1:17:07
  So you've gotta have that ethos across the board for your team, for your horses.
• 1:17:12
  Our horses are our team.
• 1:17:13
  So as far as our, we were concerned, it was a no-brainer,
• 1:17:17
  Rupert Isaacson: you know?
• 1:17:17
  So, so tell us a little bit more about the work you do at Child
• 1:17:21
  Vision with the visually impaired.
• 1:17:23
  how is that specific within the equine assisted world?
• 1:17:28
  I know you're not only working with that population, but it's,
• 1:17:31
  it's a population that I, that I'm intrigued, by for many reasons.
• 1:17:35
  Talk, talk us through a
• 1:17:36
  Terri Brosnan: little bit.
• 1:17:37
  Oh, this is my, my, my pet subject.
• 1:17:39
  You might not ever get me off this.
• 1:17:41
  So
• 1:17:42
  Rupert Isaacson: grab a bottle of whiskey guys.
• 1:17:43
  Yeah.
• 1:17:43
  Terri Brosnan: carries off.
• 1:17:44
  We'll be back in a while.
• 1:17:45
  no.
• 1:17:45
  we have the most amazing setup because we have preschool children with a
• 1:17:51
  visual impairment coming into our service at, from the age of 18 months.
• 1:17:57
  And so 18 months.
• 1:17:58
  18 months, yeah.
• 1:18:00
  So we can have him up on the horse
• 1:18:00
  Rupert Isaacson: at 18 months.
• 1:18:01
  Absolutely,
• 1:18:02
  Terri Brosnan: yes.
• 1:18:03
  Okay.
• 1:18:03
  That's interesting.
• 1:18:04
  So we can even for a few minutes And, and, and, and remember at that age they're
• 1:18:09
  physically not able to take a huge amount and it would only be supported riding.
• 1:18:14
  Rupert Isaacson: So are you riding with them in front of you in
• 1:18:16
  Terri Brosnan: the saddle?
• 1:18:17
  Absolutely.
• 1:18:18
  Back riding and for a few minutes just to help encourage head control, you know,
• 1:18:23
  body control, all those kind of things.
• 1:18:25
  we are so lucky to have this population to work with because it's interesting.
• 1:18:31
  None of the children we see are just visually impaired nowadays.
• 1:18:36
  Somebody with just a visual impairment is considered very mainstream.
• 1:18:41
  And so the children and adults that we see have visual impairment and another okay.
• 1:18:48
  Number of issues.
• 1:18:49
  So they may have autism, which is the most kind of straightforward group of
• 1:18:54
  kids that we would see from our services.
• 1:18:56
  They may have cerebral palsy, they may have a number of syndromes
• 1:19:00
  associated with premature birth.
• 1:19:03
  They may have cortical visual impairment where their eyes are
• 1:19:06
  perfect, but their brain can't process.
• 1:19:10
  The visual information from the eyes.
• 1:19:12
  And this is a really interesting one for you, Rupert, because neurologically
• 1:19:17
  the older part of the brain, not the newer part of the brain, is still
• 1:19:22
  getting some visual information that high contrasts black and white.
• 1:19:28
  Even with people with visual impairment, the kinia cells are still sending
• 1:19:32
  signals across the brain, but not in the visual neural pathways that we
• 1:19:38
  currently associate with color vision.
• 1:19:41
  And
• 1:19:42
  Rupert Isaacson: so how are those, so kinia cells for those, or kin cells
• 1:19:45
  as we should kin them Kinney cells?
• 1:19:46
  Yeah.
• 1:19:46
  For those people that Dunno what those are, those, those are cells,
• 1:19:49
  produced in the, cerebellum mm-hmm.
• 1:19:52
  That when you move and problem solve, your brain produces this protein called bdnf,
• 1:19:56
  brain-derived neurotrophic factor that makes your brain produce more brain cells.
• 1:19:59
  Yeah.
• 1:20:00
  And among these brain cells are these things called bikini cells, which govern
• 1:20:03
  motor skills and social skills and act like an internet within the brain.
• 1:20:07
  How are those, that's just sort of so people understand what you mean by that.
• 1:20:11
  But my question is how are those cells, you said those cells
• 1:20:16
  are picking up and transferring information through the brain.
• 1:20:18
  That's visual, but it's not being interpreted by the brain as sites vision.
• 1:20:24
  Absolutely.
• 1:20:25
  How is, how is the brain interpreting that information?
• 1:20:28
  Terri Brosnan: So the, the, the motor pathways and the old kind of contrast,
• 1:20:35
  very basic, In the, in, in the really old part of the brain though, that's still, so
• 1:20:41
  what we associate with modern sight is all this, you know, rods and cones is color,
• 1:20:45
  high color, high definition vision that we associate with being fully rec sighted.
• 1:20:50
  But there's an older vision right in the back, which is still about, you
• 1:20:55
  know, high contrast, black and white.
• 1:20:57
  that, that is really closely linked with motor pathways.
• 1:21:01
  And we're currently looking, we're doing some research at the moment into the
• 1:21:06
  effect of rapid movement on, vision and orientation because we can move people
• 1:21:12
  on a horse much faster than they're ever gonna move on their own two feet.
• 1:21:17
  And it makes them solve problems faster, it increases their thought process
• 1:21:22
  speed, and it is giving them new ideas so that it's, that's just one of my
• 1:21:27
  hobby horses on, on the end of, and it's something that we're working on
• 1:21:31
  at the moment of paper we're working on for Denver, actually for the, vision
• 1:21:34
  2023 conference in Denver in July.
• 1:21:38
  But, so there's a lot of, there's a lot of similarities.
• 1:21:42
  Vision impairment is a sensory processing issue.
• 1:21:45
  If you're having an issue with your vision, you are having an
• 1:21:49
  issue with one of your senses.
• 1:21:51
  So, All of the things that apply for sensory processing issues and autism and
• 1:21:58
  ADHD all apply for visual impairment.
• 1:22:01
  and so we've got this amazing crossover, and we've got people with absolutely
• 1:22:07
  no vision cantering on horses, and they're able to turn, turn the
• 1:22:13
  corner independently, independently.
• 1:22:15
  We are not even on lunch line.
• 1:22:18
  They are riding independently encountering these horses.
• 1:22:21
  and you know, their vision would be very, very poor in
• 1:22:26
  comparison to the main population.
• 1:22:28
  they might have some light or you know, some color maybe, but not necessarily the
• 1:22:34
  Rupert Isaacson: two.
• 1:22:35
  But they're getting, they're getting down the road with a stick.
• 1:22:38
  They're, they're sorry, what?
• 1:22:39
  They're getting down the
• 1:22:40
  Terri Brosnan: road with a stick.
• 1:22:41
  Absolutely.
• 1:22:42
  Yeah.
• 1:22:43
  They're walking with a cane.
• 1:22:44
  Rupert Isaacson: So what do you think is allowing these, these people
• 1:22:47
  to be able to guide their horses?
• 1:22:50
  So we've, through independently in the
• 1:22:51
  Terri Brosnan: arena, we've been asking this question actually at
• 1:22:54
  orientation and mobility conference.
• 1:22:56
  Yeah.
• 1:22:56
  Rupert Isaacson: What do they say?
• 1:22:57
  Have you asked them?
• 1:22:58
  Terri Brosnan: Well, they've come up with loads of ideas.
• 1:22:59
  They've come up with this whole idea of echolocation and they've
• 1:23:03
  come up with the idea of, you know, The feedback from the horse.
• 1:23:08
  they've, you know, maybe if, if they, they're mapping the arena
• 1:23:12
  somehow, but these are people who are not on their own feet.
• 1:23:14
  They're not at the same height they're normally at, they're, you know,
• 1:23:18
  moving faster than they normally move.
• 1:23:20
  Right.
• 1:23:20
  So actually the secret is that this old part of the brain that isn't
• 1:23:26
  processing vision as we know it, as they move in space, is telling
• 1:23:32
  them about what's coming up.
• 1:23:34
  It's giving them a map of the arena or of the space that they're in.
• 1:23:40
  Rupert Isaacson: So, so they're getting a brain and body map.
• 1:23:43
  Yes.
• 1:23:44
  That's extending beyond the horse.
• 1:23:46
  Because those of you who know what brain and body maps do, let's say
• 1:23:50
  you're holding a pen, your brain creates the pen as part of your body, or the,
• 1:23:56
  you're going through a doorway and it creates the hype between your head
• 1:23:59
  and the doorway as part of your body.
• 1:24:01
  So you duck Yeah.
• 1:24:01
  That sort of thing.
• 1:24:02
  but to, to, to say, to make the whole arena Yes.
• 1:24:07
  Out of a brain and body map, they
• 1:24:08
  Terri Brosnan: can map the whole place.
• 1:24:10
  Do you think that
• 1:24:11
  Rupert Isaacson: this is therefore like a bit of a superpower that you might get?
• 1:24:14
  Absolutely.
• 1:24:15
  If you are visually impaired, because you've gotta overcompensate in another way
• 1:24:19
  because I, I can't map the whole arena.
• 1:24:22
  Well, these are my, and I spent my life riding in arenas.
• 1:24:24
  I don't map, hold on.
• 1:24:25
  My, my circle's always.
• 1:24:26
  Shit.
• 1:24:26
  You know, these are,
• 1:24:27
  Terri Brosnan: these are called Magnocellular Pathways.
• 1:24:31
  Rupert Isaacson: Magnocellular Pathways, cellular Pathways
• 1:24:33
  in Magnocellular Pathways.
• 1:24:35
  Tell us about these, please.
• 1:24:37
  Terri Brosnan: I, I, I, I'm currently in my research, mode.
• 1:24:40
  and I, I have, coming back with more, but I spoke to an ophthalmologist
• 1:24:44
  today and she said, oh yes, the magnocellular pathways in the brain
• 1:24:49
  are along the movement pathways.
• 1:24:51
  They go back into that ancient part of the brain and they're giving an impression
• 1:24:56
  of what's in front of that person.
• 1:24:58
  So it's not vision as such, but is an impression of where
• 1:25:03
  things are in space around them.
• 1:25:06
  Okay.
• 1:25:07
  So that's fascinating for me.
• 1:25:08
  Absolutely.
• 1:25:09
  but yes, and it's that bdnf, the more you create the bdn f the
• 1:25:14
  brain-derived neurotrophic factor, the more you grow those brain cells,
• 1:25:17
  the more information they're getting.
• 1:25:19
  The more they come across this, their thought processors are
• 1:25:22
  just getting faster and faster.
• 1:25:24
  It's like learning to drive a car, because when you get in first you're like, oh,
• 1:25:28
  everything's coming up on me so quickly.
• 1:25:31
  And then you're like, oh, faster, faster going on motorways.
• 1:25:33
  You're fine.
• 1:25:34
  You know, you get, become used to it.
• 1:25:36
  You never step back that pace.
• 1:25:39
  You never unlearn thinking at that speed.
• 1:25:43
  Mm-hmm.
• 1:25:43
  So if we can put them on the horse, they learn to think faster.
• 1:25:47
  Than they have
• 1:25:48
  Rupert Isaacson: previously.
• 1:25:49
  So optimal, optimal cognitive function, basically.
• 1:25:52
  Terri Brosnan: Absolutely.
• 1:25:53
  Yeah.
• 1:25:54
  Interesting.
• 1:25:54
  Horses moving at 24 kilometers an hour at Cantor, it's, they're
• 1:25:58
  moving at two and a half to three kilometers an hour on their feet.
• 1:26:02
  Mm.
• 1:26:02
  This is 10 times the speed.
• 1:26:04
  Mm, sorry.
• 1:26:06
  It's just a,
• 1:26:08
  Rupert Isaacson: it's so fascinating to me.
• 1:26:09
  What, what, what, what's fascinating to me there too is that, well,
• 1:26:12
  obviously if it's a car, if it's a machine, it does your bidding.
• 1:26:16
  Yes.
• 1:26:17
  A horse, of course, has many variables.
• 1:26:20
  It's gonna take that corner differently depending on your body weight, depending
• 1:26:24
  on if it's either a bird over there, depending on if there's the, the, how
• 1:26:28
  the ground is, any number of factors.
• 1:26:31
  So you could do 10 circles and each of those circles, presumably,
• 1:26:35
  if you're visually impaired, could feel very, very different.
• 1:26:38
  Yet you can map that circle time after time on an animal that is
• 1:26:43
  reacting itself to that circle.
• 1:26:45
  To the circle.
• 1:26:46
  Yes.
• 1:26:47
  What's going on there?
• 1:26:48
  Is that more bdf?
• 1:26:49
  What's, what's that?
• 1:26:50
  Terri Brosnan: It's, it's, it's something that's still under research
• 1:26:52
  that we're looking at at the moment, but it's, ah, it's just a joy to look at.
• 1:26:56
  and what we're we're seeing is that, you know, when somebody is on the back of the
• 1:27:00
  horse, part of their body is supported.
• 1:27:03
  So, you know, if you're visually impaired, you spend a lot of your concentration
• 1:27:09
  on keeping your body upright in space.
• 1:27:11
  Mm-hmm.
• 1:27:13
  Just moving one foot in front of the other is a difficult
• 1:27:17
  Rupert Isaacson: task.
• 1:27:17
  Right.
• 1:27:18
  This is on foot, not even on before you even think about a horse.
• 1:27:21
  Terri Brosnan: No.
• 1:27:22
  But if you take away some of that concentration, the horse is
• 1:27:26
  supporting you from the waist down.
• 1:27:31
  You've got more brain power to think about other things.
• 1:27:35
  Rupert Isaacson: This makes sense.
• 1:27:36
  And I guess something that's spraining to mind while you were talking there.
• 1:27:40
  You know, we all, those of us who ride all sort of aspire to, to
• 1:27:44
  that center feeling, you know?
• 1:27:45
  Yes.
• 1:27:45
  And sometimes we, we really have it where it feels like our, our
• 1:27:49
  own legs sort of basically become the front legs of the horse.
• 1:27:51
  And, you know, we're really at that optimal melding
• 1:27:56
  shapeshifting really, you know?
• 1:27:57
  yes.
• 1:27:59
  And of course, one of the ways many of us who teach riding get people to do
• 1:28:02
  that is by Shark 10, shut their eyes.
• 1:28:03
  Right.
• 1:28:03
  You know, go down the long side, take a certain number
• 1:28:06
  of steps with your eyes shut.
• 1:28:07
  You always, your feel improves.
• 1:28:10
  Do you think that if, if these people are riding effectively with
• 1:28:14
  their eyes shut the whole time?
• 1:28:17
  Terri Brosnan: Well, one of the things that stops us from realizing
• 1:28:19
  our dream of being sent to us is that we open our eyes and we look and we
• 1:28:22
  see that we're not part of the horse.
• 1:28:24
  Okay.
• 1:28:25
  Okay.
• 1:28:26
  You know, so there's, there's that visual aspect of you're sitting and
• 1:28:30
  suddenly you're moving through space.
• 1:28:32
  Your body is moving through space elegantly and beautifully,
• 1:28:37
  and you don't have this visual.
• 1:28:40
  Signal say it's not all you.
• 1:28:45
  That's
• 1:28:46
  Rupert Isaacson: brilliant, Terry.
• 1:28:47
  That's something I hadn't considered at all.
• 1:28:51
  so perhaps the visually impaired experience of riding a horse is
• 1:28:57
  truer to what we're all seeking.
• 1:29:00
  I hope so.
• 1:29:01
  The visually, I hope so.
• 1:29:03
  Terri Brosnan: They love it.
• 1:29:04
  What what a
• 1:29:04
  Rupert Isaacson: what a what a joyful it is a joyful thing.
• 1:29:08
  Concept.
• 1:29:09
  I mean, fantastic.
• 1:29:09
  I just feel my heart lifting as you say that.
• 1:29:12
  Terri Brosnan: So yes, I have the best job now, and we can start
• 1:29:16
  them from when they're quite small so we can give them this
• 1:29:19
  Rupert Isaacson: experience.
• 1:29:20
  Right.
• 1:29:20
  So yes, if someone starts with this at 18 months and then is doing this from there,
• 1:29:25
  by the time they're 20, it's just there.
• 1:29:29
  So, and, and do you really observe a cause I know you've been there seven
• 1:29:33
  years now, so you've presumably seen some kids go from, you know, through
• 1:29:37
  that seven years trajectory with you.
• 1:29:39
  Yeah.
• 1:29:39
  What have you observed in their cognitive function,
• 1:29:42
  Terri Brosnan: of that time?
• 1:29:43
  They are, I mean, so the, the difficulty is because I see all of our children
• 1:29:49
  as being bright and beautiful and amazing, and, and having their own towns.
• 1:29:53
  But you do see huge leaps actually in cognitive function, in their ability
• 1:29:58
  to interact with you in their wanting to interact, follow instructions.
• 1:30:04
  Concept
• 1:30:05
  Rupert Isaacson: development in, in their academic life, in the school away from.
• 1:30:08
  Terri Brosnan: Absolutely.
• 1:30:09
  so I mean, we would work towards sort, sort of things,
• 1:30:12
  pattern recognition, academics.
• 1:30:14
  We're always working towards that end of things.
• 1:30:16
  So yes, we can, and we do do academics with some of our
• 1:30:19
  children on the back of the horse.
• 1:30:20
  but it's all around initially it's often around concept
• 1:30:25
  development with visual impairment.
• 1:30:27
  Concept development is even harder than it is for somebody with autism.
• 1:30:32
  so, you know, what are you sitting on?
• 1:30:34
  I have no idea.
• 1:30:35
  I can't see this horse.
• 1:30:36
  Interesting, interesting.
• 1:30:38
  So we work on concept development around everything.
• 1:30:42
  you know, where they are, what the field looks like, how trees
• 1:30:46
  are, they can feel them, they can touch them, they can reach up.
• 1:30:50
  yeah, so we work a lot on concept development initially with them.
• 1:30:53
  And then we work around movement and then onto academics and all
• 1:30:57
  Rupert Isaacson: that.
• 1:30:57
  When you're teaching academics, okay, so let's say your concept development
• 1:31:00
  is good and they're now understanding the environment they're working in, what
• 1:31:04
  they're on, and the brain is developing.
• 1:31:07
  Could you give us an example of how you would.
• 1:31:10
  Do an academic exercise in the saddle.
• 1:31:12
  So we
• 1:31:12
  Terri Brosnan: very simple because you know, we, we are a small charity.
• 1:31:15
  We don't have massive amounts.
• 1:31:17
  We're not an international charity, say for example.
• 1:31:20
  So funding is not enormous.
• 1:31:22
  so we, we have defined really interesting ways of doing things.
• 1:31:26
  and one of the things we found, her foam dice are an amazing tool.
• 1:31:31
  and we hide them in our trail, in boxes and we get the children
• 1:31:35
  to collect them, find them, and then we might throw the dice.
• 1:31:39
  and the sum of the dice might be the number that of steps that we taught for,
• 1:31:45
  or it might be a multiple of the number
• 1:31:48
  Rupert Isaacson: on the dice.
• 1:31:48
  Oh, so they, they would, they would take the foam dice throw.
• 1:31:52
  Can they feel, can they feel the, the dots on it?
• 1:31:54
  Can they feel vi, is it a bit like braille?
• 1:31:56
  Can they feel the dots of the number?
• 1:31:58
  We, we have,
• 1:31:58
  Terri Brosnan: we have wooden ones that have holes Yeah.
• 1:32:00
  That have holes in so that they can use those visually impaired.
• 1:32:03
  Okay.
• 1:32:04
  Can, can use those.
• 1:32:04
  Rupert Isaacson: But we, yeah.
• 1:32:05
  So then they would throw it.
• 1:32:07
  Yeah.
• 1:32:07
  A number would, they would feel that number.
• 1:32:10
  Give them up, put the horse into that number of trot steps.
• 1:32:13
  Yeah, absolutely.
• 1:32:14
  And that's a sort of cellular way of becoming a, what
• 1:32:17
  would you then do with that?
• 1:32:18
  How would you then turn that into a arithmetic?
• 1:32:21
  Terri Brosnan: So we might say if, if we, if we are doing it in groups,
• 1:32:24
  there might be two people with five.
• 1:32:27
  So we've gone for five and we might say, well, we'll add the second
• 1:32:30
  five steps onto the first five.
• 1:32:33
  So we might say, right, we're going to talk for.
• 1:32:36
  5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 5 and five more is 10.
• 1:32:43
  So we might, we might do it that way.
• 1:32:45
  We might work on getting them to, you know, add the subtract one from another.
• 1:32:51
  Well, depending on what we're working on that day, we'll make it very physical.
• 1:32:55
  We'll make it very practical.
• 1:32:57
  so that, could you, could
• 1:32:58
  Rupert Isaacson: you take it beyond addition and subtraction?
• 1:33:00
  Could you take it to multiplication and division?
• 1:33:02
  Abso Absolutely.
• 1:33:03
  Terri Brosnan: How would you do that?
• 1:33:04
  Two times.
• 1:33:04
  Five is 10.
• 1:33:05
  Two times five is 10.
• 1:33:06
  Okay, so we've got two of you.
• 1:33:08
  So we've had five and five, that's two times five.
• 1:33:10
  Okay.
• 1:33:11
  So how are we gonna, and then if we were to take five away from what we
• 1:33:14
  did, we'd have only gone for trot.
• 1:33:17
  We'd have only trotted one time for that first five.
• 1:33:20
  So 10 minus five is five, you know, so we would in, in that way, we
• 1:33:25
  develop those concepts over time
• 1:33:27
  Rupert Isaacson: and all of that is being felt through the body
• 1:33:30
  Terri Brosnan: completely.
• 1:33:31
  And it's much more motivational.
• 1:33:33
  They're getting all of that oxytocin, they're getting that lovely
• 1:33:36
  movement, and they're having fun.
• 1:33:38
  They're getting proprioceptive feedback.
• 1:33:40
  They get everything's involved, their vestibular systems activated, because
• 1:33:44
  they're moving, and, and they're moving in a rapid movement on the back of the
• 1:33:48
  Rupert Isaacson: horse.
• 1:33:49
  And they're, what, what you're really doing there.
• 1:33:50
  What you're really talking about, it seems is applied neuroscience.
• 1:33:53
  Absolutely.
• 1:33:54
  Yeah.
• 1:33:55
  That just happens.
• 1:33:56
  Enjoyable.
• 1:33:56
  Four legs.
• 1:33:56
  This,
• 1:33:57
  Terri Brosnan: he's applied neuroscience as a systems girl, I need to be
• 1:34:01
  working with the main computer.
• 1:34:03
  You know,
• 1:34:07
  everything else comes from that.
• 1:34:08
  Let's make that the, the center of where you're gonna work from.
• 1:34:11
  Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
• 1:34:12
  It's fascinating.
• 1:34:13
  if you were giving advice to somebody starting up now in the therapeutic
• 1:34:21
  riding world, or somebody who was, had been in it for a while, Yeah.
• 1:34:26
  But was looking for new horizons, you're obviously developing all of this.
• 1:34:30
  Yeah.
• 1:34:30
  What would your first advice be?
• 1:34:34
  Terri Brosnan: My first advice is be professional.
• 1:34:38
  Think about the best practice that you can achieve within whatever space you're in.
• 1:34:45
  It doesn't matter if, if you're 50 horses or you've two horses, do
• 1:34:50
  the very best that you can at every aspect that you can afford to do it.
• 1:34:58
  So for me, you know, I like to learn about everything.
• 1:35:03
  I'm, I just like, I love knowledge.
• 1:35:05
  I, I'm curious.
• 1:35:07
  I wanna know, am I doing the right thing?
• 1:35:09
  And if I'm not, is there something better?
• 1:35:12
  What makes it better?
• 1:35:13
  Why is it better?
• 1:35:14
  How can I improve what I'm doing?
• 1:35:16
  Because we develop as humans and we want to always, there's no point in, isn't
• 1:35:22
  what they say about failure is doing the same thing, you know, time after time
• 1:35:27
  and never learning from your mistakes.
• 1:35:29
  Well, that's
• 1:35:29
  Rupert Isaacson: insanity actually is what
• 1:35:32
  Terri Brosnan: True.
• 1:35:33
  But you know, so for me it's about what can I learn in this situation?
• 1:35:37
  Mm-hmm.
• 1:35:37
  Stay curious.
• 1:35:38
  Always stay curious, and then go and find the mentorship that you need.
• 1:35:43
  That's,
• 1:35:45
  Rupert Isaacson: go ahead.
• 1:35:46
  I didn't want to interrupt you that.
• 1:35:47
  Yeah.
• 1:35:47
  Terri Brosnan: So, so, so just never just say, oh, I don't know
• 1:35:50
  how to get that information.
• 1:35:53
  Ask the people who are doing it, because if they're anything like
• 1:35:56
  me, I will happily tell you forever.
• 1:35:59
  so, you know, just go and ask.
• 1:36:02
  People really want, if they're doing something well, they
• 1:36:07
  want to share that information.
• 1:36:09
  If they're doing something poorly, they'll want to hide it.
• 1:36:12
  So if, if they're doing something well, they want the world
• 1:36:15
  to know about it, you know?
• 1:36:17
  so they will happily tell you, I've never met somebody who does
• 1:36:20
  a really good job, who's not happy to say, do you wanna learn?
• 1:36:24
  Mm.
• 1:36:25
  And it may be you have to spend three months doing it this way, or you spend
• 1:36:29
  a year doing it this way to learn.
• 1:36:32
  You give your time or you give your money or whatever it is that makes it work.
• 1:36:35
  Find the mentorship, go and find the people who can do it.
• 1:36:39
  Rupert Isaacson: That seems to me the key word about that's run through
• 1:36:42
  your whole thing here is mentorship.
• 1:36:44
  Right.
• 1:36:44
  So, you were mentored by the Kreme Carroll family.
• 1:36:48
  Mm-hmm.
• 1:36:49
  you absorbed all that, Yes.
• 1:36:52
  Good equine practice.
• 1:36:53
  Then when you were getting into systems stuff, you mm-hmm.
• 1:36:59
  Went to be mentored in that mechanical engineering.
• 1:37:03
  Yeah.
• 1:37:03
  you went, when you got into the therapeutic riding side, you
• 1:37:08
  went off for mentorship Yeah.
• 1:37:10
  For some years.
• 1:37:11
  And then now you offer mentorship.
• 1:37:13
  Absolutely.
• 1:37:14
  I think, I think one of the, the problems in the, in the horse world frankly,
• 1:37:18
  is lack of curiosity and people being afraid to be judged as a beginner.
• 1:37:30
  Whereas of course, one always is a beginner.
• 1:37:33
  Whenever one learns a new skillset.
• 1:37:35
  Yes.
• 1:37:36
  So therefore, don't go learn a new skillset.
• 1:37:38
  Just defend forever what you do, rather aggressively and
• 1:37:42
  be really grumpy about it.
• 1:37:44
  If anyone suggests any change, And, and yeah.
• 1:37:47
  The mo, you
• 1:37:47
  Terri Brosnan: know, absolutely.
• 1:37:48
  And, and that has traditionally been the mindset here.
• 1:37:51
  But for me, mentorship doesn't just come from experts.
• 1:37:57
  And I have had amazing mentors in my life, John Watson, who was a, an Olympic rider.
• 1:38:03
  I got to work with him when I was a very small child.
• 1:38:05
  He used to do pony club rallies.
• 1:38:08
  I mean, you know, but fantastic mentorship.
• 1:38:11
  but it isn't always these people with this huge knowledge up here.
• 1:38:16
  I get mentorship every day from my colleagues.
• 1:38:19
  Mm.
• 1:38:20
  I get mentorship from the kids that I see.
• 1:38:24
  Mm.
• 1:38:25
  If you're curious, you will find mentorship everywhere you go.
• 1:38:29
  Are you
• 1:38:30
  Rupert Isaacson: actively asking your children for their feedback?
• 1:38:32
  What do you think?
• 1:38:32
  Yes.
• 1:38:33
  What could we improve?
• 1:38:34
  What's working, what's not working?
• 1:38:36
  Rather than ask our parents, shut up and put this, throw this dice
• 1:38:39
  so that we can do this exercise.
• 1:38:40
  Terri Brosnan: Yeah.
• 1:38:41
  No.
• 1:38:41
  What do you want to do?
• 1:38:43
  We give them of the autonomy.
• 1:38:44
  We ask them where they want to go with it, because it's not about us.
• 1:38:49
  This, this whole thing is not about, it doesn't matter.
• 1:38:53
  If I go out there every day and it's about me, then nobody else benefits.
• 1:38:59
  I can't benefit anybody else unless I give, get their feedback, unless
• 1:39:03
  I ask them how they want to do this.
• 1:39:07
  Because it's not about me.
• 1:39:08
  It's not about my experience of equine assisted therapy or I.
• 1:39:13
  Any interaction with the horse, it's about I ask my horses what they want to do.
• 1:39:19
  You know, so I, I I need to be not the center of this situation.
• 1:39:26
  I need to ask what is best for you?
• 1:39:29
  How am I best serving you?
• 1:39:31
  If I'm not serving them, I'm not doing my job.
• 1:39:34
  I am not there to be served.
• 1:39:37
  Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
• 1:39:37
  If something's not working, what can I change?
• 1:39:41
  Yes.
• 1:39:42
  Rather than absolutely it's the, the fault of that person, or it's the fault of that
• 1:39:46
  Terri Brosnan: horse.
• 1:39:46
  It's, no, it's never, it's, we need to change something in the situation.
• 1:39:50
  It's not something is wrong or somebody has done something wrong.
• 1:39:54
  It is just, we need a change.
• 1:39:58
  And people, I, I'm not great with change.
• 1:40:01
  I'm not always brilliant with change.
• 1:40:03
  People are great with change, but I've found that change is what works.
• 1:40:08
  If again, you know, repeating the same mistake over and over again,
• 1:40:12
  it's, it's no good for anybody.
• 1:40:14
  So, you know, there are amazing people out there.
• 1:40:18
  and I'm really lucky in an, I work in an organization where people
• 1:40:22
  have lots of different skills and I don't have to have their skills.
• 1:40:27
  I can just go to the people who have them and say, what do I do now?
• 1:40:31
  Rupert Isaacson: So you're, you're going to occupational therapists, you're
• 1:40:33
  gonna physical therapists, you're gonna
• 1:40:35
  Terri Brosnan: speech and language therapists, o and m specialists,
• 1:40:38
  orientation and mobility specialists, disability specialists, nursing staff.
• 1:40:43
  We have nursing staff on campus, which is incredible godsend.
• 1:40:47
  But even in terms of research, I have library staff, I
• 1:40:50
  have hr, so I'm very lucky.
• 1:40:52
  I have an unusual situation because all of the things that you would want to
• 1:40:56
  have as a business, if you're setting this up, I actually have, and I have
• 1:41:00
  lots of expertise in that in other areas within the building that I work in.
• 1:41:05
  And I don't have to do all of that.
• 1:41:07
  And yes, I have run my own yards and had to be, you know,
• 1:41:10
  chief, washing, bottle cleaner.
• 1:41:13
  Everybody.
• 1:41:13
  I, I did all the jobs, you know, where you're, you're mucking out,
• 1:41:16
  you're answering the phone, you're teaching the lessons, you're pulling
• 1:41:19
  the mains, you're doing everything.
• 1:41:22
  I, I, I've, I've done that and of things.
• 1:41:24
  And it's not joyful.
• 1:41:26
  Mm-hmm.
• 1:41:27
  It's not joyful when you, everything comes on, falls on one person.
• 1:41:32
  It is joyful to work in harmony with others.
• 1:41:35
  Tribal, whether it's Yeah.
• 1:41:37
  Tribal.
• 1:41:38
  Exactly.
• 1:41:38
  Extended family.
• 1:41:39
  Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
• 1:41:39
  Clan.
• 1:41:40
  Yeah.
• 1:41:41
  And that's where the joy comes.
• 1:41:43
  Interesting.
• 1:41:44
  Yeah.
• 1:41:44
  I, I think that that's always the central theme here is that if you are,
• 1:41:50
  if you are not having wellbeing, if the horse is not having wellbeing, how can
• 1:41:55
  you and the horse transmit wellbeing?
• 1:41:57
  To some someone else, you, it's not possible, right?
• 1:41:59
  It's impossible.
• 1:42:01
  and you're so right that, that the team tribe call it what you will aspect of
• 1:42:07
  it, brings joy because that's of course how humans are supposed to to be.
• 1:42:11
  But we know so many people in the horse industry exists in isolation.
• 1:42:17
  It's just me in my yard doing my thing.
• 1:42:18
  I don't want any outside interference.
• 1:42:20
  I don't want, and this is certainly true in the therapeutic
• 1:42:22
  Terri Brosnan: world, but it's just fear.
• 1:42:24
  It's just fear.
• 1:42:26
  We, I think particularly in the horse industry, there's an awful
• 1:42:30
  lot of cases of, imposter syndrome.
• 1:42:34
  Mm.
• 1:42:35
  So we hide what we don't know under, a facade of bluff.
• 1:42:41
  Mm.
• 1:42:42
  and, and, and brusqueness rather than saying, actually, can you show me how that
• 1:42:47
  Rupert Isaacson: works?
• 1:42:48
  Right.
• 1:42:49
  No, I, I couldn't agree more.
• 1:42:51
  and I think it's a sickness within, obviously it's not just the horse world.
• 1:42:54
  One, one
• 1:42:55
  Terri Brosnan: part.
• 1:42:55
  No, it's everywhere.
• 1:42:56
  No.
• 1:42:56
  Rupert Isaacson: it's, it's somehow, particularly a
• 1:42:58
  little bit in the horse world.
• 1:42:59
  And one of the things I, I find fascinating about you, Terry, is
• 1:43:03
  that you, you are one of those few people I've run across there who just
• 1:43:09
  go into this forever student mode.
• 1:43:12
  because you could say, look, I'm working for this.
• 1:43:15
  Really cutting edge, organization, child Vision in Dublin.
• 1:43:18
  We're doing a fantastic job.
• 1:43:20
  We really know, think, I know that you're getting invited to
• 1:43:22
  conferences around the world.
• 1:43:23
  I know you just got back from Warsaw.
• 1:43:25
  I know you're off to Colorado, as you just said, to present in Denver.
• 1:43:28
  Denver.
• 1:43:29
  there's a neuroscience conference coming up, next year in, in Virginia, which
• 1:43:32
  I know you're gonna be invited to.
• 1:43:34
  so, you know, you're, you're in demand, so you could rest on those laurels, but
• 1:43:41
  you don't, you, you still go out and look.
• 1:43:43
  Yeah,
• 1:43:45
  Terri Brosnan: so my brain needs input all the time.
• 1:43:48
  I have that brain that needs constant, you know, it needs to problem solve.
• 1:43:54
  I need my vestibular problem solving, brain needs input all the
• 1:43:58
  time, and I love to solve problems.
• 1:44:01
  a pattern recognition is my, it's my little, it's my
• 1:44:05
  specialist area of interest.
• 1:44:08
  So,
• 1:44:10
  Rupert Isaacson: so tell us, sir, how can people get in contact with you?
• 1:44:12
  How can they find out more about your work?
• 1:44:14
  Terri Brosnan: Okay, so I'm, I'm working in child's vision
• 1:44:17
  in Interim Contra in Dublin.
• 1:44:18
  And anybody is welcome to drop in Monday to Friday, nine till
• 1:44:23
  five into our yard and say hello.
• 1:44:26
  Where they could
• 1:44:27
  Rupert Isaacson: just public, they could just Google Child
• 1:44:29
  Vision is one word, absolutely.
• 1:44:31
  Terri Brosnan: Ie.
• 1:44:32
  Child Vision, ie.
• 1:44:34
  And they can rock up on the campus.
• 1:44:36
  It's open to the public, so, All, all year round and we'll be there.
• 1:44:41
  so on a very physical level, you can get your ass into television
• 1:44:45
  and, and we'll be there.
• 1:44:46
  and on an internet level, you can find me at terri@equigeek.com,
• 1:44:51
  so E Q U I g e e k.com.
• 1:44:55
  and or Terry brosnan@childvision.ie.
• 1:44:58
  Rupert Isaacson: Just repeat those a couple of times so people
• 1:45:00
  run off and get their pens.
• 1:45:02
  Just yeah.
• 1:45:02
  So it's say them slowly so people can write them
• 1:45:05
  Terri Brosnan: down.
• 1:45:06
  The Irish disease of speaking really quickly.
• 1:45:09
  so it's Terry Brosnan, T e r, yeah.
• 1:45:13
  R i b r o s n a n at Child Vision, ie.
• 1:45:19
  That's c h i l d V I S I O n, ie.
• 1:45:25
  or Terry, t e r r qui geek e q ui g e e k.com.
• 1:45:35
  Alternatively, you will be able to get me at Terry Horse, ie.
• 1:45:43
  in the next couple of weeks.
• 1:45:44
  Okay.
• 1:45:45
  yeah, so I will answer emails if you send them through to me, I'll,
• 1:45:49
  I answer any questions or I will put you in touch with somebody who
• 1:45:52
  knows more about this than I do.
• 1:45:55
  Rupert Isaacson: and specifically for people who are interested in, in this,
• 1:45:58
  course that you're doing, for equine professionals wanting to look at the,
• 1:46:04
  the various ways of getting involved in a therapeutic world professionally.
• 1:46:07
  Yeah.
• 1:46:07
  I could imagine that this goes beyond Ireland.
• 1:46:09
  that if people from other countries wanted to look at the model that
• 1:46:14
  you've produced and look at some doing something similar, can they get with
• 1:46:18
  you and talk with you about that?
• 1:46:19
  Can they book themselves on one of your courses?
• 1:46:22
  Terri Brosnan: Absolutely.
• 1:46:23
  we will have a course coming up at the very end of August, beginning of
• 1:46:27
  September, in Dublin in Child Vision.
• 1:46:31
  there would be a four day therapeutic writing coaching
• 1:46:33
  course, on the last week of August into the first week in September.
• 1:46:39
  it's the Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday of that week, and we, there
• 1:46:43
  will be one in Northern Ireland in cre, in Enki, in the college, the
• 1:46:49
  agricultural and equine college in Enki.
• 1:46:54
  Sometime over Halloween holidays.
• 1:46:57
  I haven't got exact dates yet, but there's, there's definitely one coming
• 1:47:00
  up in Northern Ireland for that date.
• 1:47:02
  Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
• 1:47:03
  And obviously I'm gonna say because the internet is timeless,
• 1:47:06
  this is 2023 we're talking about.
• 1:47:08
  Yeah.
• 1:47:08
  if you're listening to this, in later timeframes, just contact Terry for
• 1:47:14
  Terri Brosnan: absolutely when there's gonna be more and we'll continue to
• 1:47:17
  run these courses, for as long as Horse Board Island will continue to fund us.
• 1:47:23
  Rupert Isaacson: Fantastic.
• 1:47:24
  well, listen, Terry, it's been an absolute treat to check in with you.
• 1:47:30
  the work you're doing is stalking, as we say in Okay.
• 1:47:35
  and it gives me great gladness because as a dad of an autistic child who
• 1:47:45
  found his way through horses, but in an unconventional way, I just know that with
• 1:47:51
  people like you out there doing this sort of thing, there's gonna be more kids like
• 1:47:55
  mine helped, and this makes me happy.
• 1:47:58
  I want to thank all the listeners.
• 1:48:02
  Mm-hmm.
• 1:48:02
  Or, tune in.
• 1:48:03
  Please do contact Terry directly.
• 1:48:05
  Yes.
• 1:48:05
  She really will get back to you.
• 1:48:07
  She will help you.
• 1:48:08
  I've, I've seen her do this time and time again.
• 1:48:10
  It doesn't matter if you're in the USA or Japan.
• 1:48:12
  She can help you, particularly if you are trying to put something together in
• 1:48:16
  a smaller space, particularly if you're looking at how to look at all these
• 1:48:21
  various, apparently conflicting modalities within the, the therapeutic horse world.
• 1:48:25
  How do you marry them all together?
• 1:48:27
  She's the lady to talk to.
• 1:48:29
  if you are interested in, what we do at Horse Boy, please go to, n ntls.co.
• 1:48:37
  ntls.co.
• 1:48:38
  That's for new Trails Learning Systems.
• 1:48:41
  that's Horse Boy Method Movement Method, and Athena, which is
• 1:48:44
  our trauma based modality.
• 1:48:46
  Or if you're interested in the horse training and personal
• 1:48:48
  development, go to long ride home.com and you'll find us there.
• 1:48:53
  and please tune in for the next equine assisted world.
• 1:48:58
  As you can see with Terry here, the people that are coming on this
• 1:49:02
  are, are doing extraordinary work that we all need to know about.
• 1:49:05
  I have one last little sneaky question.
• 1:49:06
  Yes.
• 1:49:07
  Okay.
• 1:49:08
  You and I, I'm sure everyone was wondering this, your surname is Brosnan and you're
• 1:49:13
  Irish and you're living in county.
• 1:49:16
  Me?
• 1:49:17
  Yes.
• 1:49:17
  We're to know that Pierce Brosnan.
• 1:49:20
  Pierce Brosnan is a Navan man, right?
• 1:49:22
  I believe he, yes.
• 1:49:23
  Right.
• 1:49:24
  Any, yeah, any relation?
• 1:49:25
  Are you relation?
• 1:49:25
  Terri Brosnan: Yes.
• 1:49:26
  They're all actually Kerry men.
• 1:49:29
  Oh.
• 1:49:29
  And apparently there was a family feud.
• 1:49:32
  About a hundred years ago over a farm somewhere in Kerry, on the other side of
• 1:49:37
  Ireland, on the other side of Ireland.
• 1:49:40
  so our side of the family doesn't actually know his side of the
• 1:49:43
  family, for some bizarre reason, but apparently he's a lovely man.
• 1:49:48
  and yes, his family are from just up the road, so they're
• 1:49:51
  Rupert Isaacson: okay.
• 1:49:51
  Yeah.
• 1:49:51
  So what that really means, our listeners, is if you get in touch with Terry, she'll
• 1:49:55
  sort you out with a date with Pierce.
• 1:49:56
  So, excellent.
• 1:49:57
  Or, or the more reason to, to contact.
• 1:50:00
  Terri Brosnan: I, I'm only married to his, lovely cousin, so,
• 1:50:05
  Rupert Isaacson: and, and Nile, Nile Brosnan.
• 1:50:07
  For those who don't know, Terry's husband is a very, very lovely man.
• 1:50:10
  He's what you would really call a polymath.
• 1:50:12
  , computers, mathematics, music.
• 1:50:14
  Brilliant man.
• 1:50:15
  If you ever find yourself lucky enough to be around a table with that man
• 1:50:19
  with a glass of whiskey in Terry's kitchen, so, so if you sign up on
• 1:50:24
  one of Terry's courses, you might find yourself in that situation.
• 1:50:27
  Terri Brosnan: You may well find yourself in my kitchen.
• 1:50:31
  Ruth, thank you.
• 1:50:31
  It's
• 1:50:32
  Rupert Isaacson: been such a pleasure.
• 1:50:32
  Oh, thank you so much.
• 1:50:33
  Thank you very much.
• 1:50:33
  All right.
• 1:50:34
  I can't wait till the next time.
• 1:50:35
  Okay.
• 1:50:35
  Okay.
• 1:50:36
  Talk to you soon.
• 1:50:36
  See you soon.
• 1:50:37
  Bye-Bye.
• 1:50:38
  All.
• 1:50:38
  thank you for joining us.
• 1:50:39
  We hope you enjoyed today's podcast.
• 1:50:41
  Join our website, new trails learning.com, to check out our online
• 1:50:46
  courses and live workshops in Horse Boy Method, movement Method, and Athena.
• 1:50:52
  These evidence-based programs have helped children, veterans, and people
• 1:50:57
  dealing with trauma around the world.
• 1:50:59
  We also offer a horse training program and self-care program
• 1:51:03
  for riders on long ride home.com.
• 1:51:06
  These include easy to do online courses and tutorials that
• 1:51:10
  bring you and your horse joy.
• 1:51:13
  For an overview of all shows and programs, go to rupert isaacson.com.
• 1:51:18
  See you on the next show.
• 1:51:19
  And please remember to press, subscribe and share.