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Why can't we all just get along? | Maintaining Frame 160 · Honey Badger Radio

• 0:00
  Speaker 1: Hello everybody, and welcome to Honey Badger Radio. My name
• 0:03
  Speaker 1: is Brian. I'm here with Alison and this is maintaining
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  Speaker 1: frame number one sixty. Why can't we all just get along?
• 0:13
  Speaker 2: Why can't we all get along?
• 0:16
  Speaker 1: Yeah, so we're going to be reacting to a video.
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  Speaker 3: Psychology Today article, not this video, not the video.
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  Speaker 2: No, no, I apologize.
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  Speaker 3: I put it through later like what we were going
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  Speaker 3: to react to, but I guess it didn't go through.
• 0:34
  Speaker 1: I'll do it again. No, you said, I got the
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  Speaker 1: link to the article too, but I thought they were
• 0:38
  Speaker 1: related things.
• 0:39
  Speaker 3: They probably are, But I figure we could start with
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  Speaker 3: the call for Psychology Today to the manosphere to just
• 0:48
  Speaker 3: stop doing what you're doing and become feminist.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah wait, no, are you serious?
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  Speaker 2: I'm kidousy, I'm serious.
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  Speaker 3: So that's how we're going to solve the divide between
• 0:58
  Speaker 3: the sexes.
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  Speaker 1: For men concede, please just surrender exposing our hypocrisy and
• 1:06
  Speaker 1: criticizing us, and just join us, and then everything.
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  Speaker 3: Will be fine, exactly exactly. So I figured we could
• 1:13
  Speaker 3: take a look at that first before we get at
• 1:15
  Speaker 3: I have, like a little I've been again gathering some
• 1:18
  Speaker 3: nuts related to this topic to look at what the
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  Speaker 3: femosphere is up to lately, because I'm I'm just gonna
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  Speaker 3: start calling them. We have the manosphere, I'm gonna call
• 1:28
  Speaker 3: it the femosphere. So the themosphere is u n the economist,
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  Speaker 3: pretty much all NGOs related to gender based issues and
• 1:36
  Speaker 3: all of that stuff. So we'll read the Psychology Today
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  Speaker 3: article which is basically telling the manosphere to shut up
• 1:43
  Speaker 3: and toe the line. Let's be honest, and I'll tell
• 1:46
  Speaker 3: you why that is. We'll deconstruct it, and then we'll
• 1:48
  Speaker 3: look at the current femosphere initiatives. It's because so called equality. Sorry,
• 1:55
  Speaker 3: what did you say.
• 1:56
  Speaker 1: I said, it's because they're losing why. Yeah, it's because
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  Speaker 1: they because they are wrong and everyone knows they're wrong,
• 2:05
  Speaker 1: and everybody's figuring this out. Yeah, like, that's that's what
• 2:09
  Speaker 1: this is. Not.
• 2:10
  Speaker 4: This is this is panic, that's all it is.
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  Speaker 1: They're panicked and they're like, like, the power we have
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  Speaker 1: over all of society is slipping through our fingers. And
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  Speaker 1: it's started with men, started in particular with young men,
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  Speaker 1: and they're like, oh no, if we lose the men,
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  Speaker 1: we may lose the women because the women may follow.
• 2:29
  Speaker 3: So for once, Yeah, all right, it's a legit into it.
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  Speaker 2: Oh wait, let me do the things.
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  Speaker 3: things like that's an excessive number of things to think about.
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  Speaker 2: It's all in the low bar.
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  Speaker 1: It's a decent number.
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  Speaker 2: It's a it's a substantial.
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  Speaker 3: Okay, So I'm having an issue with my camera.
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  Speaker 4: Your camera frozen again? Yeah, it looks like yeah.
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  Speaker 2: I'm old hat at this now. Okay, this should uh
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  Speaker 2: all right, let's get this. Oh it won't be yet.
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  Speaker 2: I have to reset it and then I have.
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  Speaker 1: Okay, you're good. Now, you're good now, Yeah, I know
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  Speaker 1: I'm good.
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  Speaker 3: I just need to zoom in a little bit so
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  Speaker 4: All right, So we're gonna get into the article.
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  Speaker 1: Yep, all right? Should I read it? Yeah?
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  Speaker 3: Sure?
• 4:34
  Speaker 1: All right?
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  Speaker 3: Thank you prefer your dulcet tones to my squeaky squirrel voice.
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  Speaker 1: All right, So this is from Psychology Today, and it
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  Speaker 1: is written by Nafez Alam, PhD. Apparently he works in
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  Speaker 1: pop culture mental health, which completely makes him absolutely relevant
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  Speaker 1: and the expert on the topic. And it's the title
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  Speaker 1: is Feminism and the Manosphere Beyond the Gender Divide. How
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  Speaker 1: feminism and the Manisphere reflect modern gender tensions? Okay, can
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  Speaker 1: I make Can I make a prediction about this? I
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  Speaker 1: haven't read this article? You read No, I have not.
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  Speaker 1: I have not. I have not read this article, don't
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  Speaker 1: know anything about it. I'm just too busy this morning.
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  Speaker 1: Oh I'm just going to go out on a limb
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  Speaker 1: and say that this is it's going to be predictable
• 5:26
  Speaker 1: because they always do the same thing. They don't really
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  Speaker 1: have like a new script. They haven't figured it one
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  Speaker 1: out yet, because ultimately it's all about rhetoric and how
• 5:34
  Speaker 1: they their words make you feel. So the most charitable
• 5:39
  Speaker 1: interpretation of the Manisphere, the most charitable is going to
• 5:44
  Speaker 1: be something along the lines of the Manisphere is the
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  Speaker 1: mirror image of the worst aspects of feminism like it
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  Speaker 1: is is. I haven't read it, but I'm guessing that
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  Speaker 1: and that the manisphere is just extremely misin formed because
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  Speaker 1: they're under the delusional idea that feminism is not actually
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  Speaker 1: just about equality, and if they knew that it was
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  Speaker 1: just about equality, they'd be feminists.
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  Speaker 3: M I think you're I think you're getting really close
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  Speaker 3: to what's going on in this.
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  Speaker 2: There might be a few tweaks here and there.
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  Speaker 3: Before we do, like, I want to remind everyone that
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  Speaker 3: feminist academics premise is that men use rape and domestic
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  Speaker 3: violence to uphold their privileges in patriarchy. Now, before we
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  Speaker 3: get into this article, I just want to point that
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  Speaker 3: out because that is the kind of rhetoric you direct
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  Speaker 3: at something you want to destroy. So, from the very start,
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  Speaker 3: first principles, feminist purse principles, and again they have never
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  Speaker 3: proven this. They've attempted to cook the books to make
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  Speaker 3: it seem like it's true. But feminist perse principles is
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  Speaker 3: that men's relationship to women is one of using extreme
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  Speaker 3: violence to enact their privileges, to enforce their privileges, that's
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  Speaker 3: the feminist position, and it resembles the position of every society.
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  Speaker 2: They assume this narrative.
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  Speaker 3: They take on this narrative when they want to destroy
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  Speaker 3: the thing they are targeting this narrative at. So you
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  Speaker 3: would say this narrative. If you want to go kill
• 7:25
  Speaker 3: tribe BE, you would say things like they are a threat.
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  Speaker 2: They're going to rape.
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  Speaker 3: And torture our women, So going we kill tribe B.
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  Speaker 3: You want to enslave tribe C. They're a threat to
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  Speaker 3: raping and beating our women unless we enslave them. You
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  Speaker 3: want to destroy something it promotes raping and beating our women.
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  Speaker 3: So this is like the ultimate command threat narrative, and
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  Speaker 3: feminists have targeted this at men, and.
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  Speaker 2: This is first principles.
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  Speaker 3: This is like I got into a conversation with Michael
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  Speaker 3: Flood on Twitter and I pointed when he when someone
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  Speaker 3: was saying that feminism is indistinguishable from Nazism towards Jews.
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  Speaker 3: He pushed back on that, and I pointed this out
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  Speaker 3: and then didn't He didn't say, oh, we don't do that,
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  Speaker 3: because they do feminists. Do feminists one hundred percent feminist
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  Speaker 3: in academia promote the idea that men use rape and
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  Speaker 3: domestic violence to oppress women.
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  Speaker 2: He didn't push back on that part.
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  Speaker 3: He pushed back on saying that's like Nazi propaganda towards
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  Speaker 3: the Jews, and yet it one percent is because one
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  Speaker 3: of the first things that they did was present Jewish
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  Speaker 3: people as being criminals, as being a sexual threat to
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  Speaker 3: Aryan women and children, as being desiring to torture and
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  Speaker 3: disenfranchise Aryan women and children. Now be it as it may,
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  Speaker 3: what you think of that, this is how you target
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  Speaker 3: a group of people for destruction. So one hundred percent
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  Speaker 3: feminism has borrowed from war propaganda in the past, as
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  Speaker 3: has borrowed from the narratives around groups of people you
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  Speaker 3: want to target and remove from society and directed that
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  Speaker 3: at men. And they want to say, they want to say,
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  Speaker 3: there is some form we can find a common ground
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  Speaker 3: with that. What's the common ground? Like, how do you
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  Speaker 3: find common ground with that? But I just wanted to
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  Speaker 3: point that out. Let's let's let's let's find out.
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  Speaker 2: Let's find right, Let's.
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  Speaker 1: Let's find out. Yeah, all right, so let's get the
• 9:26
  Speaker 1: key points. In recent decades, we've witnessed an increasing polarization
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  Speaker 1: and discourse about gender roles, rights, and relationships. On one
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  Speaker 1: side stands feminism, with its various waves and branches advocating
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  Speaker 1: for women's equality. On the other side has emerged what's
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  Speaker 1: commonly called the manosphere, a collection of online communities focused
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  Speaker 1: on men's issues sometimes characterized by anti feminist statements, understanding, how.
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  Speaker 2: These what women's equality?
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  Speaker 1: Okay, yeah, no, he he poisoning the well right off
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  Speaker 1: the bat, because.
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  Speaker 3: Right off the bat.
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  Speaker 4: No, there's a lot of ways he's doing it.
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  Speaker 3: There's a lot of way and of what academic feminists
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  Speaker 3: and by extension, all feminists actually are promoting. It's just equality, folks,
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  Speaker 3: just like Nazism was just about saving Germany.
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  Speaker 1: Well, let's let's let's break let's break down this paragraph. Okay, yeah,
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  Speaker 1: so all right, on one side stands feminism with its
• 10:26
  Speaker 1: various waves and branches. So when he says waves and branches,
• 10:32
  Speaker 1: this is going to give him plausible deniability. So if
• 10:35
  Speaker 1: you point out anything crazy the feminists believe, he gets
• 10:38
  Speaker 1: to say, oh, well that's probably wave X or branch y,
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  Speaker 1: So it's not feminism. It's just this crazy fringe thing
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  Speaker 1: over here. So that's why this is. This is them
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  Speaker 1: planting the seeds. They're getting ready to have the conversation,
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  Speaker 1: and they're setting up the minefield. Okay, so first off,
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  Speaker 1: it's got all these branches, it's kind of all over
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  Speaker 1: the place. Who knows what it really means? And then
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  Speaker 1: it says advocating for women's equality. So for sure, it
• 11:03
  Speaker 1: believes that. For sure, equality for sure across the board,
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  Speaker 1: no matter what branch or wave it is, it's all
• 11:09
  Speaker 1: about equality. But if you mention anything that actually flies
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  Speaker 1: in the face of that, you know, that contradicts equality
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  Speaker 1: in some way, then he gets to.
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  Speaker 4: Say, no, no, no, no, no, that's not feminism.
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  Speaker 1: That's a branch, that's a wave, that's something else that's
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  Speaker 1: out there in the fairy dust, you know. On the
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  Speaker 1: other side, has emerged what's commonly known a manosphere, a
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  Speaker 1: collection of online communities focused on men's issues, sometimes characterized
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  Speaker 1: by anti feminist statements. When he's already said that feminism,
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  Speaker 1: for sure advocates for women's equality, so when he says
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  Speaker 1: anti feminist, he means anti equality, which, of course being
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  Speaker 1: anti equality is bad according to the guy who wrote this,
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  Speaker 1: when I would just say, well, there is no such
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  Speaker 1: thing as equality. It's just about like people as they are,
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  Speaker 1: and that's kind of like a thing we have to
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  Speaker 1: wrestle with.
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  Speaker 4: But that's I'm just saying.
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  Speaker 1: That's the first pair of rought off the bat, poisoning
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  Speaker 1: the well, setting up the traps, and all of that.
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  Speaker 3: Good, good point, good point, they're already making the framework,
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  Speaker 3: so it's just about women's equality. Of course, what they
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  Speaker 3: mean is at least equality for women, and if it's
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  Speaker 3: it's supremacy for.
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  Speaker 2: Women, that's counted as equality.
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  Speaker 3: As we'll find out when we look at this supplemental material,
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  Speaker 3: when we look at the FEMO spheres, the FMO spheres actions,
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  Speaker 3: let's least keep going.
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  Speaker 1: Understanding how these movements relate to each other and how
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  Speaker 1: they might find common ground requires examining their origins, their
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  Speaker 1: legitimate concerns, and the ways their more extreme elements have
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  Speaker 1: contributed to an increasingly divisive conversation. Now this is all
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  Speaker 1: this also, i believe makes another mistake. It makes the
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  Speaker 1: mistake of assuming that you have like two armies or
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  Speaker 1: two tribes or two teams, and they're all and they're equal,
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  Speaker 1: and they have the same amount of leverage and the
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  Speaker 1: same amount of political power and the same amount of funding,
• 13:02
  Speaker 1: and then you're and you're figuring out where they line
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  Speaker 1: up in that way, which is just not true. As
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  Speaker 1: feminism obviously, like occupies, like all the institutions, it's in
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  Speaker 1: the zeitgeist of the Western world, and it and the
• 13:17
  Speaker 1: Eastern world. It's it's global. It's everywhere. Everyone presumes it
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  Speaker 1: like just by default, and anything that goes against that,
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  Speaker 1: you know, like is basically anathema to it is the
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  Speaker 1: enemy of it. While as the manosphere is just like
• 13:32
  Speaker 1: you know, pockets of online communities, who knows, like if
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  Speaker 1: it definitely doesn't have any political influence. It doesn't have
• 13:39
  Speaker 1: lobbying power, it doesn't have governments under its heel, it
• 13:42
  Speaker 1: doesn't get like billions of dollars from three letter agencies.
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  Speaker 3: So we started because men are starting to realize that
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  Speaker 3: they need to advocate for their own interest yeah, but.
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  Speaker 1: They don't have But they don't. It's still nowhere near
• 13:55
  Speaker 1: where feminism is basically a business.
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  Speaker 3: I mean, yeah, fhear only maybe has clout because it's
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  Speaker 3: convinced the voters, male voters, that they need to advocate
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  Speaker 3: for their interests. And the only thing that really the
• 14:10
  Speaker 3: the I would say, I don't want to say the left,
• 14:12
  Speaker 3: but like the statists really have is this idea that
• 14:16
  Speaker 3: if men toe the line, they'll get women. And I
• 14:19
  Speaker 3: think men are waking up to the bullshit of that
• 14:22
  Speaker 3: that they that they'll appeal to women and women will
• 14:25
  Speaker 3: like them. Because you see a lot of these articles
• 14:28
  Speaker 3: of you know, statist women says I won't have sex
• 14:31
  Speaker 3: with men until they agree with statism, you know, and
• 14:35
  Speaker 3: I'm calling it status because this is the thing that
• 14:37
  Speaker 3: the dividing line seems to be whether or not you're
• 14:39
  Speaker 3: justifying government debt, taking out debt that we have to
• 14:44
  Speaker 3: labor to pay the interest on.
• 14:46
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, all right, next paragraph. The evolution of modern
• 14:51
  Speaker 1: gender discourse. Modern feminism's journey from early suffrage movements to
• 14:55
  Speaker 1: contemporary intersectional approaches has transformed society and profound ways. The
• 15:01
  Speaker 1: second wave of feminism in the nineteen sixties and seventies
• 15:04
  Speaker 1: brought issues like workplace inequality, reproductive rights, and domestic violence
• 15:08
  Speaker 1: into public discourse. These movements achieved significant legal and cultural
• 15:12
  Speaker 1: victories that fundamentally change women's opportunities and social positions. So
• 15:18
  Speaker 1: this is more arguments that are being made that are
• 15:20
  Speaker 1: sort of like, let's say beyond reproach, you know, like
• 15:23
  Speaker 1: they're like, well, you can't criticize and any lists like
• 15:26
  Speaker 1: suffrage and workplace inequality, reproductive rights, and domestic violence, Well they.
• 15:31
  Speaker 3: Started like the first principles. Instead of the first principles,
• 15:35
  Speaker 3: they're allowing feminism to use their slogan and say and
• 15:40
  Speaker 3: uncritically accept feminist slogan as their genuine first principle right,
• 15:46
  Speaker 3: that they are for women's equality. I noticed that, you know,
• 15:49
  Speaker 3: men's equality is not even in the picture, but regardless,
• 15:53
  Speaker 3: they are for women's equality, which means that ultimately feminists,
• 15:56
  Speaker 3: if they see any situation where women are more than equal,
• 15:59
  Speaker 3: they're superior. That's fine, because it's not a situation of
• 16:03
  Speaker 3: women's inequality. So everything has to be pushed up into
• 16:06
  Speaker 3: women being in a better.
• 16:07
  Speaker 2: Position than men.
• 16:08
  Speaker 3: Fine, that's their advocacy. They're fairly open about it. I'm
• 16:13
  Speaker 3: not sure why people think that there's a common ground
• 16:16
  Speaker 3: to be found between advocates who think that women should
• 16:19
  Speaker 3: everything should be women's focused on women's equality, and never
• 16:24
  Speaker 3: look at the situation for men, because that's right in there.
• 16:27
  Speaker 3: So that first principle is actually, when you poke it,
• 16:29
  Speaker 3: when you look into it, pretty corrupt already.
• 16:33
  Speaker 2: It's basically the situation.
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  Speaker 3: All we have to care about is the situation for women.
• 16:37
  Speaker 3: All of thing you have to care about is the
• 16:38
  Speaker 3: equality for women. We're just going to assume. We're never
• 16:40
  Speaker 3: actually gonna look at the situation for men. We're just
• 16:42
  Speaker 3: gonna assume it's better than women, So we can continue
• 16:45
  Speaker 3: to completely focus our efforts on improving women's equality everywhere
• 16:50
  Speaker 3: and never look at men's. So right from the start
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  Speaker 3: that although that first principle seems benign, it isn't. It
• 16:58
  Speaker 3: is already corrupted. And then when you go in and
• 17:02
  Speaker 3: that is feminism's best face, you know, it's feminism's best
• 17:06
  Speaker 3: face is already sort of horrifying when you think about it.
• 17:09
  Speaker 3: Then when you get into it, when you get into
• 17:12
  Speaker 3: what academic feminists are trying to prove or assert that
• 17:15
  Speaker 3: men use rape and domestic violence to subjugate women. And
• 17:19
  Speaker 3: if you want, if you want the proof of that,
• 17:22
  Speaker 3: I will find it for you and I will read
• 17:24
  Speaker 3: it out. I don't have it right at this more moment.
• 17:26
  Speaker 1: Is it that document that did I keep posting that
• 17:30
  Speaker 1: text that text thing that you sent me?
• 17:33
  Speaker 3: No, that's just the additional links, all right. So feminists
• 17:37
  Speaker 3: are okay. Feminists are dominant in the field when it
• 17:39
  Speaker 3: comes to getting funding and recognition for surviving sexual assault,
• 17:43
  Speaker 3: of sexual violence, and domestics assault, as mc fail confesses
• 17:47
  Speaker 3: in his paper, Feminist theoretical perspectives are dominant in the
• 17:51
  Speaker 3: field of domestic violence and sexual assault and feminist theoretical
• 17:54
  Speaker 3: perspectives focus on the link between men's violence against women
• 17:57
  Speaker 3: and patriarchal structures of power, considering that male violence against
• 18:01
  Speaker 3: women is both the result of historical differences in the
• 18:03
  Speaker 3: power between men and women and a tactic for maintaining
• 18:06
  Speaker 3: women's subordination. That's McPhail at Alton and seven, which is
• 18:10
  Speaker 3: the evolving feminist perspective on intimate part and violence. It
• 18:13
  Speaker 3: sets out the feminist framework for how patriarchy is maintained.
• 18:19
  Speaker 3: I mean, there are other softer things that they include,
• 18:22
  Speaker 3: but ultimately, you know, everything comes down to violence for them.
• 18:27
  Speaker 3: So men use rape and domestic violence to uphold patriarchy,
• 18:32
  Speaker 3: and we're supposed to find common ground with that. We're
• 18:35
  Speaker 3: supposed to find And the nice way to put it
• 18:37
  Speaker 3: is that we always always have to focus on women
• 18:40
  Speaker 3: because men are evil and they have these incredible powers
• 18:43
  Speaker 3: to always subjugate women. So we don't look at the
• 18:45
  Speaker 3: situation for men, because we know they're evil and we
• 18:48
  Speaker 3: know they have tremendous powers. We only look at the
• 18:50
  Speaker 3: situation for women. So and that's the nice phase. That's
• 18:53
  Speaker 3: the only we We're we're about women's equality, not demonizing men.
• 18:58
  Speaker 1: That's the most charitable way to y yeah. Yeah, yeah.
• 19:01
  Speaker 4: So I want to break down this paragraph too.
• 19:03
  Speaker 1: So when they say again, like I say, modern femine's
• 19:06
  Speaker 1: journey from early suffrage movements, so that right there is
• 19:10
  Speaker 1: suggesting that you know, right off the bat, suffrage is
• 19:14
  Speaker 1: you can't criticize it like it's obviously good period, Like
• 19:17
  Speaker 1: there's no nuance. It's like history starts with women being
• 19:20
  Speaker 1: oppressed and then getting the vote and by the skin
• 19:23
  Speaker 1: of their teeth, and there's no context, there's no story
• 19:26
  Speaker 1: around that, there's no idea that like mostly women were
• 19:29
  Speaker 1: against it and all of the things that that were
• 19:31
  Speaker 1: being considered. No, none of that matters because suffrage was
• 19:34
  Speaker 1: just good and you can't criticize that full stop. Okay.
• 19:38
  Speaker 1: So when they put that in there, they're saying, you
• 19:41
  Speaker 1: can't criticize this because this is just good. Okay, now
• 19:44
  Speaker 1: we're going to move on to the other things that
• 19:46
  Speaker 1: are just good that you can't criticize. So when they
• 19:48
  Speaker 1: say the second wave of feminism in the nineteen sixties
• 19:52
  Speaker 1: and seventies brought issues like workplace inequality, workplace inequality, pretty
• 19:56
  Speaker 1: sure that first of all we'd have to ask the
• 19:59
  Speaker 1: question was it really unequal to begin with, Like, ever,
• 20:02
  Speaker 1: is that even a thing that was a problem or
• 20:04
  Speaker 1: was that just something that was said to be a
• 20:06
  Speaker 1: problem that we are just supposed to accept again, you know, whole.
• 20:10
  Speaker 4: Cloth, without challenging.
• 20:12
  Speaker 1: And if if it is something that supposedly the Second
• 20:15
  Speaker 1: Wave you know, addressed, then why are women still complaining
• 20:19
  Speaker 1: about it today? That means that it's either like never
• 20:22
  Speaker 1: had the intention of fixing it, or it's completely ineffectual
• 20:26
  Speaker 1: and couldn't have fixed it, which means the sixties and
• 20:28
  Speaker 1: second seventy second Wave couldn't take credit for something it
• 20:31
  Speaker 1: didn't do. Right. So there's that reproductive rights again, what
• 20:36
  Speaker 1: does that even mean? You're using like this is like
• 20:39
  Speaker 1: a very slippery language, because what one person's reproductive rights
• 20:43
  Speaker 1: is somebody else's baby murder depending on how you look
• 20:47
  Speaker 1: at it.
• 20:48
  Speaker 4: That's the truth.
• 20:48
  Speaker 1: And also even if we left it in the realm
• 20:51
  Speaker 1: of reproductive rights, we're still not talking about them in
• 20:54
  Speaker 1: men's context, Like women got reproductive rights, whatever that means,
• 20:58
  Speaker 1: but men did not. They have no choices, And even
• 21:01
  Speaker 1: to this day, feminists will defend that. They'll say, well,
• 21:03
  Speaker 1: they made a choice when they had sex with them,
• 21:06
  Speaker 1: which means only men get that agency and women don't
• 21:09
  Speaker 1: because if they get knocked up, it's not their fault. Right.
• 21:12
  Speaker 4: And then domestic violence, again, this is another very misleading
• 21:17
  Speaker 4: thing to put in there, because men also suffer domestic
• 21:20
  Speaker 4: violence and women not only are they the initiatives of
• 21:25
  Speaker 4: domestic violence, but they're the champions of domestic violence if
• 21:28
  Speaker 4: you look at lesbian relationships. So when you say this
• 21:31
  Speaker 4: is an issue, you are specifically saying this is something
• 21:34
  Speaker 4: that men do to women, which again the second wave
• 21:37
  Speaker 4: feminist movement can't take credit for because apparently it's still
• 21:41
  Speaker 4: something that feminism is trying to address.
• 21:43
  Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, yes, Okay, well I think we should wait.
• 21:48
  Speaker 1: And last thing. Then it says these movements achieved significant
• 21:50
  Speaker 1: legal and cultural victories, but they didn't because none of
• 21:53
  Speaker 1: these things have changed in the eyes of feminists, so
• 21:56
  Speaker 1: they didn't like your second waivers are losers by your logic.
• 22:01
  Speaker 3: Yeah, we're still living in the worst patriarchy ever. The
• 22:04
  Speaker 3: patriarchy has only gotten worse, guys, as a result of
• 22:08
  Speaker 3: these feminist initiatives. And I wanted to say, even if
• 22:11
  Speaker 3: you regard voting women voting as a positive or a neutral,
• 22:17
  Speaker 3: the history around that is so distorted. Feminists didn't get
• 22:22
  Speaker 3: women the vote. Male lawmakers did, and probably in conjunction
• 22:26
  Speaker 3: with the suffragists. And it actually, honestly, when, for example
• 22:31
  Speaker 3: the UK, which is when I've studied a bit more,
• 22:34
  Speaker 3: when they decided to do universal suffrage, it was a
• 22:36
  Speaker 3: result of men's sacrifice in World War One, and then
• 22:39
  Speaker 3: they couldn't argue that women didn't deserve the vote if
• 22:42
  Speaker 3: they're going to give it all to men, like all men,
• 22:44
  Speaker 3: they couldn't say, well, let's just keep women not having
• 22:46
  Speaker 3: the vote. So it was like men's sacrifice in World
• 22:49
  Speaker 3: War One got women the vote as well as them themselves.
• 22:53
  Speaker 3: It's like it's and again, like what Brian just alluded to,
• 22:57
  Speaker 3: the whole argument between the vote over the vote was
• 23:00
  Speaker 3: not women versus men. It was a majority of women
• 23:03
  Speaker 3: who didn't want women to have the vote and a
• 23:06
  Speaker 3: majority of men who did. Like, it's completely distorted. So
• 23:12
  Speaker 3: even if you think it's neutral or good, at least
• 23:15
  Speaker 3: know the facts about how it happened. All right, let's
• 23:18
  Speaker 3: say I'm terrible, but we should try to maybe read
• 23:24
  Speaker 3: a whole section.
• 23:25
  Speaker 2: And then speak.
• 23:26
  Speaker 1: This is kind of long, Okay, Yeah, I'll try not
• 23:29
  Speaker 1: to stop but just like pay attention to.
• 23:30
  Speaker 2: The way I will try not to stop.
• 23:32
  Speaker 4: That's all.
• 23:33
  Speaker 1: I'm asking that you guys that are watching this be
• 23:36
  Speaker 1: very attentive to the way this article is being written,
• 23:39
  Speaker 1: because there's a lot of manipulation happening as I read it. Okay,
• 23:43
  Speaker 1: So anyway, as feminism evolved and gain cultural influences, some
• 23:47
  Speaker 1: men began to feel that their own challenges and perspectives
• 23:50
  Speaker 1: were being overlooked. The manisphere emerged primarily in online spaces
• 23:55
  Speaker 1: during the early two thousands, encompassing, sorry encompassing diverse communities
• 23:59
  Speaker 1: from men rights activists concerned with issues like family court
• 24:03
  Speaker 1: biases and male suicide rates, to more controversial groups promoting
• 24:07
  Speaker 1: traditional masculinity or expressing outright misogyny. Are we going to
• 24:12
  Speaker 1: controversial traditional masculinity that's controversial?
• 24:16
  Speaker 2: Are we going to.
• 24:17
  Speaker 3: Go over all of the horrific crap that feminists were
• 24:21
  Speaker 3: beaking off about on I mean, not just the basic
• 24:24
  Speaker 3: premise of feminism, which is equality for me and not
• 24:27
  Speaker 3: for THEE. And that's the nice space. The ugly face
• 24:31
  Speaker 3: is equality for me and not for THEE because you
• 24:33
  Speaker 3: men are demons and you don't if we give you anything,
• 24:37
  Speaker 3: then we're basically giving sucker to Satan. But but regardless,
• 24:41
  Speaker 3: are we going to go into all of the subgroups
• 24:43
  Speaker 3: of feminists that take that to its logical conclusion of
• 24:47
  Speaker 3: eradicating me. And they're not even subgroups hidden on the internet.
• 24:50
  Speaker 3: You can find them on talk shows and in parliament
• 24:54
  Speaker 3: and in mngos just beaking off about this horrific crap
• 24:58
  Speaker 3: when nobody's saying, hey, but you know there where there
• 25:00
  Speaker 3: might have been subgroups of misogynists on the internet. Incidentally,
• 25:04
  Speaker 3: I've been in a lot of during that time. I
• 25:07
  Speaker 3: was in a lot of men's issues forums. Yeah, there
• 25:10
  Speaker 3: was no let's remove women down to ten percent of
• 25:13
  Speaker 3: the population or have it so that you put them
• 25:16
  Speaker 3: in libraries. And this is a feminist thing, so I'll
• 25:19
  Speaker 3: say it the feminist way, so I'm not taken out
• 25:21
  Speaker 3: of context. There was a feminist that asserted that men
• 25:24
  Speaker 3: should be reduced down ten percent of the population and
• 25:27
  Speaker 3: the remaining men should be put installed in like man
• 25:31
  Speaker 3: libraries where women could check them out for a night
• 25:33
  Speaker 3: and then return them. And I have never heard that
• 25:36
  Speaker 3: from any group of men. Yet.
• 25:39
  Speaker 1: Sounds like a dystopian young adult novel. Okay, I'm not
• 25:44
  Speaker 1: gonna say anything. I'm just going to keep going. But
• 25:46
  Speaker 1: traditional masculinity being seen as fringe is kind of wild,
• 25:49
  Speaker 1: but makes sense parallel grievances and reactive formation. Well, it
• 25:54
  Speaker 1: might be tempting to view feminism as having birthed the
• 25:57
  Speaker 1: manosphere at a simple cause effect relationship. The reality is
• 26:00
  Speaker 1: more complex. It's nuanced, guys. Both movements respond to genuine
• 26:05
  Speaker 1: social pressures, though in different ways and from different perspectives.
• 26:09
  Speaker 1: Michael Kimmel, sociologists and author of Angry White Men, which
• 26:14
  Speaker 1: a title that this totally should get you wanting to read,
• 26:17
  Speaker 1: observes what we're seeing isn't simply reactionary politics, but competing
• 26:22
  Speaker 1: responses to rapid social change. Both movements contain legitimate grievances
• 26:27
  Speaker 1: about how gender expectations can harm individuals.
• 26:30
  Speaker 2: Michael Kimmell for a while.
• 26:33
  Speaker 4: No, I hear it every so often.
• 26:35
  Speaker 3: Yeahly discredited because he did something supposedly, but I guess not.
• 26:40
  Speaker 1: His book is still out there, Like it doesn't really matter, right,
• 26:44
  Speaker 1: if you like what's her name, Naomi Wolf, he's like
• 26:48
  Speaker 1: highly discredited too, but I bet her feminist books are
• 26:51
  Speaker 1: still like in colleges and circulating in common libraries. Everywhere,
• 26:56
  Speaker 1: so continue.
• 26:58
  Speaker 3: So I actually actually confronted him during one of the.
• 27:01
  Speaker 4: I know we had the screening of The Red Pill.
• 27:04
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I actually called him out on some of his crap.
• 27:08
  Speaker 1: Remember he was the guy that was involved with the
• 27:10
  Speaker 1: film The Mass You Live In which we.
• 27:12
  Speaker 2: Know that I believe, not both of them, It was
• 27:15
  Speaker 2: both both of them.
• 27:18
  Speaker 1: It was Michael Flood, Michael Kimmel, and there was another guy,
• 27:21
  Speaker 1: one of the Good Men Project guys. I think anyway. Oh,
• 27:26
  Speaker 1: new movements contain legitimate grievances about how gender expectations can
• 27:29
  Speaker 1: harm individuals. Some key parallels and these movements include number one,
• 27:33
  Speaker 1: both respond to perceives injustices and systemic biases. Number two
• 27:39
  Speaker 1: both contain moderate and extreme elements. Number three both address
• 27:44
  Speaker 1: genuine difficulties faced by their respective genders, and number four
• 27:49
  Speaker 1: both sometimes define themselves in opposition to the other. The
• 27:53
  Speaker 1: minisphere didn't emerge simply as a reaction against feminism, but
• 27:56
  Speaker 1: rather as a part of a broader response to changing
• 28:00
  Speaker 1: gender dynamics, economic pressures, and cultural shifts that have transformed
• 28:04
  Speaker 1: traditional masculinity.
• 28:06
  Speaker 3: So both sometimes define themselves in opposition to the other. Okay,
• 28:11
  Speaker 3: feminism from the start defines itself in opposition to men.
• 28:15
  Speaker 4: Equality is not to the manisphere.
• 28:17
  Speaker 2: Yeah, equality yeah, not to the manisphere.
• 28:20
  Speaker 3: Equality is something that men withhold from women, which is
• 28:23
  Speaker 3: why we don't have to actually look at situations where
• 28:26
  Speaker 3: men are not equal, because they're the ones in power
• 28:30
  Speaker 3: and withholding equality from women. So if they have if
• 28:34
  Speaker 3: they have a problem, I mean it's it's there, they
• 28:36
  Speaker 3: have the power to fix it.
• 28:38
  Speaker 2: This is how it. This, This entire narrative.
• 28:40
  Speaker 3: This command narrative, command and control narrative, feminist command and
• 28:44
  Speaker 3: control narrative, completely negates any ability to address or recognize
• 28:49
  Speaker 3: men's issues. And that's just the nice phase, that's just
• 28:52
  Speaker 3: that we advocate for women's equality.
• 28:56
  Speaker 2: Phase.
• 28:57
  Speaker 3: The ugly phase, I mean, that's just the face of
• 29:00
  Speaker 3: discrimination and who cares about men? The ugly face is
• 29:04
  Speaker 3: the active demonization of men with narratives like men use
• 29:08
  Speaker 3: rape and domestic violence to subjugate women.
• 29:10
  Speaker 2: And I invite.
• 29:11
  Speaker 3: Anyone who is like, what that sort of makes sense?
• 29:15
  Speaker 3: Do you have a son, are you teaching him to
• 29:18
  Speaker 3: use rape and domestic violence to subjugate women? If the
• 29:21
  Speaker 3: answer is no, why do you think anyone is doing that?
• 29:25
  Speaker 3: Why did you ever agree to this nonsense? And it
• 29:28
  Speaker 3: is nonsense. It's unproven nonsense. Feminists never had to prove
• 29:33
  Speaker 3: anything that they assert nothing, None of this is proven.
• 29:37
  Speaker 3: It's all just bullshit they pulled out of their ass.
• 29:40
  Speaker 3: Like I could just imagine these these feminists sitting in
• 29:43
  Speaker 3: a circle, how do we do we frame men is evil?
• 29:47
  Speaker 5: And they're like, oh, they used domestic they use beatings
• 29:49
  Speaker 5: and rapes to have all the society it's like, and
• 29:53
  Speaker 5: nobody said, wait, that sounds like either you have a
• 29:56
  Speaker 5: fetish or you just hate men, and that neither of
• 29:58
  Speaker 5: which makes good scholarship.
• 30:00
  Speaker 3: Nobody, well, they just they just let them sit in
• 30:03
  Speaker 3: their their wide open space and say whatever they wanted,
• 30:07
  Speaker 3: with no oversight, no no genuine peer review, no actual
• 30:12
  Speaker 3: calls to scientific grigor They just sat there and did
• 30:14
  Speaker 3: whatever they wanted, said whatever they wanted, promoted whatever they wanted,
• 30:19
  Speaker 3: and everybody had to swallow it. And finally people are
• 30:23
  Speaker 3: stepping up and saying, now, honestly, most of the people
• 30:26
  Speaker 3: who are who are one lasering in on the bullshit
• 30:30
  Speaker 3: that feminism is pumped out since it was inception, are
• 30:34
  Speaker 3: small channels like ours that are heavily censored, are heavily
• 30:38
  Speaker 3: pushed away.
• 30:39
  Speaker 2: I mean, we're not.
• 30:39
  Speaker 3: Censored because we, you know, say all the bad words,
• 30:42
  Speaker 3: all of them that maybe one or two, and so
• 30:47
  Speaker 3: the algorithm doesn't like us. But the algorithm also doesn't
• 30:49
  Speaker 3: like us because feminist groups have told YouTube, yeah, make
• 30:52
  Speaker 3: the algorithm not like them, and we have receipts on that.
• 30:55
  Speaker 3: And also we're targeted by Homeland Security. Why because we
• 30:59
  Speaker 3: are actually taking aim at the true narrative. At the
• 31:02
  Speaker 3: heart of what I would term statism and to define
• 31:06
  Speaker 3: state ems is the belief that the state can just
• 31:09
  Speaker 3: write itself a blank check that all of our asses
• 31:12
  Speaker 3: have to pay. Right there, you go, little long grant there.
• 31:19
  Speaker 1: All right. So I want to talk a little bit
• 31:21
  Speaker 1: about this because I think it's weird about these parallels
• 31:24
  Speaker 1: that they can kind of apply to anything. So like
• 31:27
  Speaker 1: any any response to any movement that maybe has gone
• 31:32
  Speaker 1: off the rails or is not taking you know, all
• 31:34
  Speaker 1: of the factors into account could be put through this
• 31:37
  Speaker 1: lens and dismissed, which is I think what the goal
• 31:40
  Speaker 1: of this is. So both respond to perceive injustices or
• 31:43
  Speaker 1: systemic biases. So I want to focus on the word
• 31:46
  Speaker 1: systemic because that's the I think that men's issues advocates,
• 31:53
  Speaker 1: and I think that men's issues advocates are probably the
• 31:56
  Speaker 1: most politicized part of the manisphere. Like the pways and
• 32:01
  Speaker 1: like the you know, they're just trying to find different
• 32:03
  Speaker 1: ways to like use the current modern paradigm to like
• 32:07
  Speaker 1: attract women. There's nothing like that has anything to do
• 32:10
  Speaker 1: with like legislation or laws. That's just guys and the
• 32:14
  Speaker 1: migtaw guys, well, they're they've just migtowed. So like there's
• 32:17
  Speaker 1: you can't put them in a box, like they've they've
• 32:20
  Speaker 1: left the box, like they're gone.
• 32:22
  Speaker 4: You can't shame them into submission.
• 32:24
  Speaker 1: The only ones you can really confront with this are
• 32:27
  Speaker 1: the people who are like, these laws are unfair. Okay,
• 32:31
  Speaker 1: So the systemic biases that feminists complain about are largely
• 32:36
  Speaker 1: imagined and made up. The but the legislation that goes
• 32:41
  Speaker 1: in as a result of this made up crap like
• 32:44
  Speaker 1: Title nine, the Dear Colleague Letter, thet the absolute state
• 32:48
  Speaker 1: of the welfare state, the divorce laws, the way that
• 32:51
  Speaker 1: we handle child custody, the way that we handle false
• 32:55
  Speaker 1: rape allegations, and the list goes on. Those end up
• 32:59
  Speaker 1: becoming systemic problems. Now, I don't think MRAs cry systemic
• 33:04
  Speaker 1: because it's sort of like this overused term by intersectionals,
• 33:08
  Speaker 1: but there is a systemic aspect to it because we
• 33:12
  Speaker 1: have accepted this kind of like feminist framework that we've
• 33:15
  Speaker 1: been living under for like the past one hundred years
• 33:18
  Speaker 1: or so. So when this person says, oh, look, they
• 33:21
  Speaker 1: both are seeing this, they're doing a both sides thing
• 33:24
  Speaker 1: when one of these things is imagined and the but
• 33:27
  Speaker 1: the outcome of it, like the imagined slights against women
• 33:32
  Speaker 1: that have gone into law and policy, have become real
• 33:35
  Speaker 1: obstacles for men. And the only place, like if you
• 33:38
  Speaker 1: don't if you're new to this and you're trying to
• 33:40
  Speaker 1: figure out how that could be observed, just look at
• 33:43
  Speaker 1: the black population and look at how the welfare state
• 33:46
  Speaker 1: and all of the incentives that have been put in
• 33:49
  Speaker 1: place has absolutely demolished their communities and families. That's that
• 33:54
  Speaker 1: is something we could call systemic, but it's not something
• 33:57
  Speaker 1: that's happening on both sides. It's something that is specifically
• 34:01
  Speaker 1: impacting men. And the solution is not more statism. The
• 34:05
  Speaker 1: solution is actually to remove the state from that so
• 34:09
  Speaker 1: that men could find their proper place in their communities,
• 34:13
  Speaker 1: raising their children, in their homes, right as one example. Right,
• 34:18
  Speaker 1: so when they talk about systemic biases, they're not only
• 34:21
  Speaker 1: misidentifying the problem, but they're also suggesting the solution should
• 34:26
  Speaker 1: also be systemic, because these people are statists. So all right,
• 34:30
  Speaker 1: and then.
• 34:30
  Speaker 2: Two points I wanted to make before we continue.
• 34:32
  Speaker 3: Un pickup artists literally are enacting the one form of
• 34:38
  Speaker 3: pro social identity that feminists have left for men, which
• 34:42
  Speaker 3: is to please women using their penises. All right, that's it.
• 34:47
  Speaker 3: Astounding feminists say that patriarchy objectifies women when feminist scholarship
• 34:52
  Speaker 3: removed all of the traditional values associated with men and
• 34:56
  Speaker 3: left one possible avenue for a pro so interaction with
• 35:01
  Speaker 3: women as men, and that is using your body to
• 35:03
  Speaker 3: please women. Talk about objectification, huh, Like you remove everything else,
• 35:09
  Speaker 3: every spiritual positive quality, every emotional positive quality of men.
• 35:13
  Speaker 3: The only thing that men can do is be pleasing
• 35:16
  Speaker 3: sexual partners for women. That's their last positive way of
• 35:19
  Speaker 3: being in a relationship with women. Absolutely sickening, but regardless,
• 35:23
  Speaker 3: I just want to point out again, even the nice
• 35:27
  Speaker 3: face of feminism equality for me but not for thee
• 35:31
  Speaker 3: there is a huge incentive these people take money, or
• 35:35
  Speaker 3: these institutional call grifters they take money to give the
• 35:40
  Speaker 3: impression that they're resolving harms done to women. So inequalities
• 35:44
  Speaker 3: that women are facing. How can you trust them to
• 35:48
  Speaker 3: even recognize inequalities facing men when that is going to
• 35:53
  Speaker 3: reduce their paycheck as the NGO, the leader of the
• 35:57
  Speaker 3: NGO National Coalition or National Organization against Domestic Violence. I
• 36:02
  Speaker 3: don't remember the specific name. Her first name is Ruth,
• 36:05
  Speaker 3: but I forget her last name. I apologize, but she said,
• 36:11
  Speaker 3: I don't know, I don't know. No, she said that
• 36:15
  Speaker 3: the reason why the Andrew ate so the Amber heard sorry,
• 36:20
  Speaker 3: and the Johnny Debt trial was not good for her
• 36:24
  Speaker 3: organization was because they didn't get the donations that they
• 36:28
  Speaker 3: usually get from high profile me too allegations.
• 36:32
  Speaker 2: So it is one about money, and you're.
• 36:37
  Speaker 3: Asking people who to take a cut in their paycheck
• 36:40
  Speaker 3: in order to recognize and advocate for men's issues. They're
• 36:43
  Speaker 3: not going to do it. They're going to continue to
• 36:46
  Speaker 3: use their platform to silence groups like ours that advocate
• 36:51
  Speaker 3: for men's issues, and it's working for them. So why
• 36:54
  Speaker 3: the he and Yeah, you're right, you start at the
• 36:56
  Speaker 3: beginning that this presumes there's equal power between the men
• 37:00
  Speaker 3: sphere in the femosphere and in a previous episode, I
• 37:03
  Speaker 3: describe the man like the the if the femosphere is
• 37:07
  Speaker 3: Mount Everest in terms of power and clout, the manosphere
• 37:12
  Speaker 3: is a Yert in terms of power and clout, except
• 37:16
  Speaker 3: that they men starting to wake up to their issues
• 37:19
  Speaker 3: seem to have made the election not go the femosphere's way.
• 37:24
  Speaker 3: So yeah, that's something that's a big thing.
• 37:27
  Speaker 2: But keep doing it.
• 37:28
  Speaker 1: Keep why are these Yeah, why are there people scrambling
• 37:33
  Speaker 1: to like try to grab hold of the narrative. I
• 37:36
  Speaker 1: think the last election really put people un notice So anyway, Okay,
• 37:40
  Speaker 1: So the other thing I wanted to respond to is
• 37:42
  Speaker 1: just briefly, both contay moderate and extreme elements. I mean,
• 37:45
  Speaker 1: any group of any kind have agreemis in it. That's
• 37:48
  Speaker 1: kind of a pointless thing to say. Both address genuine
• 37:51
  Speaker 1: difficulties faced by their respective genders. Well, I don't know,
• 37:54
  Speaker 1: does feminism actually address anything or does it complain about shit?
• 37:58
  Speaker 1: And does like complain is not addressing, it's just complaining.
• 38:02
  Speaker 1: But the MRAs I think, and I can only speak
• 38:04
  Speaker 1: for them, because again I don't think migtale's or PUAs
• 38:07
  Speaker 1: or like red pillars are trying to like change the system.
• 38:10
  Speaker 4: I think they're just like.
• 38:12
  Speaker 1: Making do there are making small gains, but it is,
• 38:17
  Speaker 1: you know, it's not easy, Like they're like, it's obviously difficulties.
• 38:20
  Speaker 1: Both sometimes define themselves in opposition to the other. I
• 38:24
  Speaker 1: think that the thing with with MRAs is so like
• 38:28
  Speaker 1: I don't want to find myself constantly like fighting with feminism.
• 38:32
  Speaker 1: But the problem is is that the only way that
• 38:35
  Speaker 1: I think men's issues can be addressed is if the
• 38:39
  Speaker 1: mythology of feminism dies first. When it does, then it's like, Okay,
• 38:44
  Speaker 1: now we all know this is bullshit, So let's talk
• 38:47
  Speaker 1: about the real issues and try to find real solutions
• 38:51
  Speaker 1: and have real conversations about this. And the problem is
• 38:54
  Speaker 1: is that feminisms create a mythology, a whole pantheon of
• 38:59
  Speaker 1: fall gods that are all like, you know, variations on
• 39:03
  Speaker 1: how to worship women and how to prioritize them and
• 39:06
  Speaker 1: how to.
• 39:06
  Speaker 4: Make men expendable.
• 39:07
  Speaker 1: And I just don't think it's a any way to
• 39:10
  Speaker 1: live your life.
• 39:11
  Speaker 3: I will say this men's rights activists, I don't know
• 39:14
  Speaker 3: if they've made a hell of a lot of movement
• 39:16
  Speaker 3: in the laws, although apparently the advocate managed to get
• 39:19
  Speaker 3: some laws or help get laws changed, so good on her.
• 39:23
  Speaker 3: I don't know if she if she identifies probably what
• 39:25
  Speaker 3: might identify as a men's issues advocate.
• 39:28
  Speaker 2: And I know Justin Trattier.
• 39:29
  Speaker 3: Is making gains as well in terms of service for men.
• 39:32
  Speaker 3: So there are bits and pieces moving along in defiance
• 39:36
  Speaker 3: of the femospheres fem Star. They're always moving the fem
• 39:42
  Speaker 3: Star into position to annihilate any male issues or any
• 39:46
  Speaker 3: incentives to to do.
• 39:49
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean my far. Just imagine Andrea the Hut
• 39:52
  Speaker 2: saying that.
• 39:54
  Speaker 3: The but and we have the receipts for this as well,
• 39:57
  Speaker 3: like they are the ten men eempted to start up
• 40:01
  Speaker 3: on a men's issues organization I believe in the UK.
• 40:04
  Speaker 3: I can't tell you specifically where again nuked for morbit
• 40:08
  Speaker 3: by the fem Star, the fem death Star, you know,
• 40:12
  Speaker 3: and I've heard countless.
• 40:13
  Speaker 2: Stories of this.
• 40:15
  Speaker 3: Justin Tratcher has managed to break in and refuse to
• 40:19
  Speaker 3: be moved, which is great. So he's continuing to push
• 40:23
  Speaker 3: in services for men. Actually, Karen has said to him,
• 40:25
  Speaker 3: you know, part of the reason why the.
• 40:27
  Speaker 2: Flag is pulled off you is because we.
• 40:29
  Speaker 3: Exist, being the bleeding edge of all of this. But regardless,
• 40:33
  Speaker 3: there is movement. But on a personal level, what I've
• 40:38
  Speaker 3: seen is that these issues actually have benefited individual women
• 40:43
  Speaker 3: more than anyone. I know that sounds really weird, but
• 40:46
  Speaker 3: I've seen women be able to maintain relationships and evolve
• 40:51
  Speaker 3: them to the next stage because they're part of this community.
• 40:54
  Speaker 3: And the big thing that kills relationships is resentment and
• 40:59
  Speaker 3: expectation from women in their partners. And when they let
• 41:02
  Speaker 3: that go and they understand that men are trying to
• 41:04
  Speaker 3: do the best they can almost always, then their relationships
• 41:08
  Speaker 3: improve and they're able to move on to the next stage,
• 41:11
  Speaker 3: which is, you know, becoming a wife and mother, which
• 41:13
  Speaker 3: is what they wanted. Like look at Cassie j through
• 41:17
  Speaker 3: her interaction with the men's rights community. She let go
• 41:21
  Speaker 3: of the resentment and the expectations and the desire to
• 41:25
  Speaker 3: be right that was reducing her own life satisfaction. Because
• 41:31
  Speaker 3: she was having she was introducing a combative quality, a
• 41:35
  Speaker 3: combative note into her relationship. And because it was introducing
• 41:39
  Speaker 3: that combative note, she never felt the security and the
• 41:42
  Speaker 3: sense of trust necessary to I'm assuming here I'm saying
• 41:46
  Speaker 3: more of a she general she. From what I've seen
• 41:48
  Speaker 3: of all of the women that I've talked to about this,
• 41:50
  Speaker 3: they don't have that sense of security and trust in
• 41:54
  Speaker 3: their partner, so they don't feel like they can really
• 41:57
  Speaker 3: have a strong enough relationship to move on to the
• 41:59
  Speaker 3: next day age, you know, which usually for for relationships
• 42:03
  Speaker 3: is having children.
• 42:04
  Speaker 2: And then that's correct it. I don't know.
• 42:06
  Speaker 3: We're seeing, at least in our community, very high rates
• 42:10
  Speaker 3: of childbirth, so you know, And and like I said,
• 42:15
  Speaker 3: I think one of the big things ultimately, and this
• 42:18
  Speaker 3: sounds horrible because I don't like this necessarily, and it's
• 42:21
  Speaker 3: not that I don't like it, it's just I don't
• 42:22
  Speaker 3: think the focus is But I think the things that
• 42:25
  Speaker 3: men's rights talks about men's rights talk about really helps women.
• 42:29
  Speaker 3: And it really helps women because it allows them to
• 42:32
  Speaker 3: have the best relationships they can with men. It's the
• 42:35
  Speaker 3: relationships with men that generally determine how.
• 42:38
  Speaker 2: Good woman's life is.
• 42:41
  Speaker 3: No offense, ladies like you can go being part of
• 42:44
  Speaker 3: your femtopia and marry a woman and then divorce her
• 42:48
  Speaker 3: after she beats the shit out of you, like, go ahead,
• 42:51
  Speaker 3: try it, Okay, let's let's uh, let's at least see
• 42:55
  Speaker 3: the polarization intensified.
• 42:57
  Speaker 1: Polarization intensifies. Several factors have contributed to the growing divine
• 43:03
  Speaker 1: between these movements. Media amplification of extremes, news outlets, and
• 43:09
  Speaker 1: social media algorithms tend to highlight the most provocative voices
• 43:12
  Speaker 1: from both sides, creating distorted perceptions of what most feminists
• 43:16
  Speaker 1: and men's advocates actually believe. Should we like to address
• 43:19
  Speaker 1: this now?
• 43:20
  Speaker 2: Sure?
• 43:22
  Speaker 1: I mean you want to so, like, Okay, so this
• 43:25
  Speaker 1: is a you're only hearing from the most extreme voices
• 43:29
  Speaker 1: or whatever that even means. So, first of all, my
• 43:32
  Speaker 1: issue is is that this person is deciding where the
• 43:36
  Speaker 1: edges are at when it.
• 43:37
  Speaker 4: Comes to one constitute's extreme.
• 43:39
  Speaker 1: So I can't I can't determine anything from that because
• 43:44
  Speaker 1: we're not mainstream. Does that mean that we're too like
• 43:48
  Speaker 1: normal because we're not being put in the spotlight.
• 43:52
  Speaker 4: I don't think that's the case. I think that we're pretty.
• 43:54
  Speaker 1: Like I don't know. I don't want to say radical,
• 43:57
  Speaker 1: but like, I don't think that there.
• 43:59
  Speaker 4: I don't think this content.
• 44:00
  Speaker 1: Is as agreeable as like the the softer sort of
• 44:04
  Speaker 1: Warren Ferrell stuff like Warren Ferrell gets to go on
• 44:07
  Speaker 1: you know, big name podcast. He was on Doctor Phil
• 44:10
  Speaker 1: stuff like that, Right, So I wonder and sometimes I
• 44:14
  Speaker 1: think some of the more provocative voices are amplified because
• 44:19
  Speaker 1: it can be used to color like our whole you know,
• 44:22
  Speaker 1: our whole side of things. Right. This is why, like
• 44:25
  Speaker 1: the you know, they'll promote or they'll talk about the
• 44:28
  Speaker 1: manisphere and immediately bring up Andrew Tate in Pearl because
• 44:31
  Speaker 1: Andrett and Pearl are the biggest names, and they're also
• 44:34
  Speaker 1: the best examples of the straw man they'd like to
• 44:37
  Speaker 1: tear down, even though I don't think Andrew Tate has
• 44:40
  Speaker 1: ever advocated for a single men's issue, and Pearl isn't really.
• 44:44
  Speaker 4: That radical, Like I've watched her content.
• 44:46
  Speaker 1: It's pretty like milk toast in my opinion, But to
• 44:50
  Speaker 1: these people it is extreme. Meanwhile, on the other side,
• 44:53
  Speaker 1: no matter what feminists you're talking about, they all believe
• 44:56
  Speaker 1: the same thing at the root, the same foundation, So
• 44:59
  Speaker 1: like it doesn't me matter what their crazy views are.
• 45:02
  Speaker 1: But like, is you know Briar ny Claire, who's just
• 45:06
  Speaker 1: basically a communist that wears panties? Is that an extreme
• 45:09
  Speaker 1: voice or a mainstream voice? Because she's pretty popular? Is
• 45:12
  Speaker 1: the queer.
• 45:13
  Speaker 4: Kiwe what about Hannah Cox?
• 45:15
  Speaker 1: Like there, and the thing is these two would these
• 45:18
  Speaker 1: women would probably all disagree with each other on different things,
• 45:21
  Speaker 1: but they agree on one thing. They agree on that
• 45:24
  Speaker 1: women have historically been impressed by men and it was
• 45:26
  Speaker 1: on purpose, and men have always done it throughout history
• 45:29
  Speaker 1: and are still doing it now, and that's really the
• 45:31
  Speaker 1: main point.
• 45:32
  Speaker 3: Yeah, well, yeah, yeah, I would. I honestly, I think
• 45:36
  Speaker 3: we are more extreme because, like I say, I blame
• 45:39
  Speaker 3: women and I'm going to do so until we're as
• 45:42
  Speaker 3: comfortable blaming women as we are blaming men. And I
• 45:44
  Speaker 3: think that feminism was absolutely rancid from the start, Like
• 45:50
  Speaker 3: you don't start with then the news rape and domestic vounds.
• 45:54
  Speaker 2: Where do you go from there?
• 45:56
  Speaker 3: Let's like starting at sixty, not even one to sixty,
• 45:59
  Speaker 3: it's just starting a sixty. Just you're like subatomically accelerated
• 46:03
  Speaker 3: to sixty instantly, and there's nowhere else to go. It's
• 46:06
  Speaker 3: already an dreamist, hate a hatefully extremist position. And even
• 46:11
  Speaker 3: the nice face, oh, we advocate for women is still
• 46:15
  Speaker 3: a bigoted position, right because you know, at least I
• 46:20
  Speaker 3: guess that we advocate for women allows for men to
• 46:23
  Speaker 3: serving women's so called equality, but it's still basically is
• 46:28
  Speaker 3: outlining that we look at equality for women.
• 46:31
  Speaker 2: Do you look at equality for men. Do you actually
• 46:33
  Speaker 2: even ask yourselves, how.
• 46:35
  Speaker 3: Do we know what equality is when we don't measure
• 46:37
  Speaker 3: the side for men. No, they just look at whatever
• 46:41
  Speaker 3: issue they can frame as disenfranchisement of women and then
• 46:45
  Speaker 3: they construct a osmotic money pump from it. Okay, let's say,
• 46:52
  Speaker 3: all right, continue to the next one.
• 46:53
  Speaker 4: Might echochamber echo chamber effects.
• 46:57
  Speaker 2: Cat I need to deal with, but I'm listening.
• 46:59
  Speaker 1: Echo chamber effects online communities can reinforce and radicalize views
• 47:03
  Speaker 1: when people are exposed only to those who share their
• 47:05
  Speaker 1: perspectives and grievances. Again, I don't worry about that on
• 47:09
  Speaker 1: the men's issue side, because we have to contend with
• 47:12
  Speaker 1: the reality of the feminist narrative being the narrative, so
• 47:17
  Speaker 1: that puts us necessarily outside of the echo chamber, whatever
• 47:20
  Speaker 1: that even means, so that we can address these things. Honestly.
• 47:24
  Speaker 4: Feminists, on the other hand, do everything they can to
• 47:26
  Speaker 4: avoid man.
• 47:26
  Speaker 1: I mean, look at Blue Sky, Like blue Sky is
• 47:29
  Speaker 1: getting so bad that people on Blue Sky are being
• 47:32
  Speaker 1: driven out of Blue Sky because there's too much hatred there.
• 47:34
  Speaker 1: So you know, it's way worse than X. And that's
• 47:37
  Speaker 1: saying something pain and trauma many drawn to either movement
• 47:40
  Speaker 1: have experienced genuine suffering related to gendero dynamics, making emotional
• 47:45
  Speaker 1: responses more likely the nuanced dialogue. Yeah, fair enough, but
• 47:49
  Speaker 1: I mean I don't think that that dismisses people who
• 47:51
  Speaker 1: are making rational arguments. So maybe we should listen to
• 47:55
  Speaker 1: the arguments and not dismiss people who hurt you. You know,
• 47:58
  Speaker 1: I don't think that justified. Like I learned that Naomi Wolf,
• 48:01
  Speaker 1: who's like a who was at least a very very
• 48:04
  Speaker 1: prominent feminist, she did an interview or discussion with Jordan
• 48:07
  Speaker 1: Peterson years ago, and Peterson was like, I understand where
• 48:11
  Speaker 1: it comes from because she had this horrible experience when
• 48:14
  Speaker 1: she was young, and he was very sympathetic. But I
• 48:16
  Speaker 1: was like, yeah, but she's taking it out on everybody else,
• 48:20
  Speaker 1: Like that's not our problem, that's yours. Get therapy, like,
• 48:23
  Speaker 1: you know, like if you're gonna be able to say, well,
• 48:26
  Speaker 1: my daddy left me when I was little, or my
• 48:29
  Speaker 1: mom kicked my daddy out and I never got to
• 48:30
  Speaker 1: know him, so now I hate the world for it. Well,
• 48:33
  Speaker 1: guess what. You shouldn't probably be listened to by people
• 48:36
  Speaker 1: you're probably not in your right head space. But this
• 48:39
  Speaker 1: pain and trauma thing. I mean, yeah, the people are abused,
• 48:43
  Speaker 1: most people come from some kind of childhood trauma, and
• 48:46
  Speaker 1: that they should deal with that. But again, if somebody's
• 48:49
  Speaker 1: trying to, like, you know, create law and policy based
• 48:52
  Speaker 1: on the childhood trauma, we should probably look at it
• 48:54
  Speaker 1: rationally and decide whether or not we should listen to
• 48:56
  Speaker 1: that person. And I think that so this can just
• 49:00
  Speaker 1: be thrown out because I don't really see the point
• 49:03
  Speaker 1: of bringing it up.
• 49:04
  Speaker 4: Identity formation.
• 49:05
  Speaker 1: For some identification with these movements become central to their
• 49:08
  Speaker 1: sense of self making criticism feel like a personal attack.
• 49:13
  Speaker 1: I don't think that's a problem with MRAs. I think
• 49:15
  Speaker 1: that's a problem with feminists because when you know this,
• 49:19
  Speaker 1: because when someone criticizes men's issues, I've never heard an
• 49:25
  Speaker 1: MRA say you're criticizing men like They'll just be like, well,
• 49:29
  Speaker 1: let me allow me.
• 49:30
  Speaker 4: To retort to the criticism you have of this issue.
• 49:33
  Speaker 1: But when you criticize feminism, if you say I'm anti feminists,
• 49:36
  Speaker 1: you're presumed to be anti woman. So that's how you
• 49:41
  Speaker 1: know it's a personal attack. So yeah, that exists, but
• 49:43
  Speaker 1: that's not here, that's over there.
• 49:46
  Speaker 4: Least a way sociologists is.
• 49:50
  Speaker 3: What's a really good point, like when you do when
• 49:53
  Speaker 3: you actually say, hey, feminists, let's look at the situation
• 49:57
  Speaker 3: for men when you're asserting something, and don't just use
• 50:01
  Speaker 3: feminist cook statistics. If we all agree that men have
• 50:05
  Speaker 3: difficulty revealing sexual assault and domestic violence, let's look at
• 50:09
  Speaker 3: the let's look at the studies where they have revealed
• 50:12
  Speaker 3: the most amount, right, and look at the let's do that.
• 50:16
  Speaker 2: Even when you do that, they're like, why do you
• 50:18
  Speaker 2: hate women? It's like what does that have to do?
• 50:21
  Speaker 1: Right? I mean, I've been in conversations where feminists have
• 50:25
  Speaker 1: led with well, first of all, I'd like to know
• 50:27
  Speaker 1: why you hate women so much.
• 50:30
  Speaker 4: And it's like I.
• 50:31
  Speaker 1: Can't even, like I feel sick to my stomach to
• 50:34
  Speaker 1: even have to say, well, actually i'm married to one,
• 50:37
  Speaker 1: because I find that to be so disingenuous it's not
• 50:41
  Speaker 1: worthy of a rational response, because like we're not having
• 50:44
  Speaker 1: a conversation anymore. You're putting me in a position where
• 50:46
  Speaker 1: now I have to somehow justify to you that I'm
• 50:49
  Speaker 1: not the person you just frame me out to be.
• 50:52
  Speaker 1: And it's just like you're just making a pointless ad
• 50:54
  Speaker 1: hominem attack on me, and the purpose of that is
• 50:58
  Speaker 1: to shut me up. It's not to have a conversation. Yeah,
• 51:00
  Speaker 1: it's that's why I won't apologize for, you know, for
• 51:05
  Speaker 1: your perception of my opinion. Like if you think I
• 51:09
  Speaker 1: hate women, that's a you problem, that's not a me problem.
• 51:13
  Speaker 1: So exactly, Yeah, all right, lease away. Sociologist notes what's
• 51:19
  Speaker 1: particularly troubling is how the legitimate concerns of both movements
• 51:23
  Speaker 1: on both sides gets obscured by the most extreme rhetoric.
• 51:27
  Speaker 1: Most feminists don't hate men, and most men concerned about
• 51:30
  Speaker 1: men's issues don't hate women.
• 51:32
  Speaker 4: Okay.
• 51:33
  Speaker 3: The problem is whatever feminist rhetoric is already extreme. It's
• 51:37
  Speaker 3: already extremely radical, Like I don't know how they managed
• 51:41
  Speaker 3: to assert this crap, and now it's everywhere in the
• 51:45
  Speaker 3: sociology around domestic violence and sexual assault, to the point
• 51:49
  Speaker 3: where a lot of there are people who work in
• 51:51
  Speaker 3: those fields who are absolutely despise feminists because they are
• 51:55
  Speaker 3: using their colonizing the field in order to enforce their
• 51:58
  Speaker 3: ideological perspective of the world, and they're actually making it
• 52:02
  Speaker 3: worse and worse and worse. There's I think some cities
• 52:05
  Speaker 3: in Canada where the police have quietly tried to remove
• 52:10
  Speaker 3: feminist theory from their guidelines around dealing with domestic violence,
• 52:15
  Speaker 3: because feminist theory makes everything worse. It makes sexual assault
• 52:19
  Speaker 3: and domestic violence worse and more difficult to deal with
• 52:22
  Speaker 3: because they're not looking at it as a issue that
• 52:26
  Speaker 3: needs to be solved through reasonable interventions. They're looking at
• 52:30
  Speaker 3: it as a cash grab, and they want to reframe
• 52:34
  Speaker 3: it in a way that makes that makes that cash
• 52:36
  Speaker 3: grab easier and quicker, which honestly, most people respond to
• 52:41
  Speaker 3: situations that they feel or you know, if you say
• 52:44
  Speaker 3: the women are in trouble, everybody drops everything and has
• 52:47
  Speaker 3: to save them, and then the feminists say, put up
• 52:50
  Speaker 3: the women are in trouble banner. Everybody rushes towards it,
• 52:54
  Speaker 3: and they say, ah, how about you give us a
• 52:56
  Speaker 3: bit of a tithe and we'll deal with it, right,
• 53:00
  Speaker 3: understand it, because we're experts, right, and that's what they're doing.
• 53:03
  Speaker 3: That's the point. But the point is, ultimately, if you
• 53:07
  Speaker 3: remove half of the data of any particular issue, you
• 53:10
  Speaker 3: are not going to make a solution. You're just going
• 53:12
  Speaker 3: to construct an ideological narrative around the problem. And it
• 53:17
  Speaker 3: just so happens that that ideological narrative coincides with people
• 53:22
  Speaker 3: coughing up more dough. Like, so right from the start,
• 53:28
  Speaker 3: how do you find middle ground? Like, how do you
• 53:31
  Speaker 3: find how do men find middle ground? With men use
• 53:34
  Speaker 3: rape and domestic violence to subjugate women? How do you
• 53:38
  Speaker 3: find middle ground with that?
• 53:40
  Speaker 1: Yes?
• 53:41
  Speaker 2: The middle ground?
• 53:43
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean you have to basically, I feel like,
• 53:46
  Speaker 1: well sometimes they do. Like no, I mean, like there,
• 53:49
  Speaker 1: That's what I'm saying, Like, if you if you're launching
• 53:52
  Speaker 1: from an awful premise, there's no and this this article
• 53:57
  Speaker 1: is calling for let's all like just get along, let's
• 54:00
  Speaker 1: all just find the middle ground here. But the problem
• 54:02
  Speaker 1: is is that the men's issues side is not straw
• 54:07
  Speaker 1: manning women. It's not like it's it's not ultimately it's
• 54:11
  Speaker 1: not even all that concerned with women. It's mainly just
• 54:14
  Speaker 1: looking at the areas that are, you know, where injustice
• 54:19
  Speaker 1: is happening, and they're looking for something that remotely approaches
• 54:22
  Speaker 1: reason and evidence. And the feminist side is just like
• 54:26
  Speaker 1: you know, it's it's like the worst examples and then
• 54:29
  Speaker 1: it takes that and makes it into the typical example.
• 54:33
  Speaker 1: So now you have to like contend with that, and
• 54:35
  Speaker 1: now you're asking you to come to the common ground.
• 54:39
  Speaker 1: Of that.
• 54:40
  Speaker 3: Yeah, they're asking, Okay, you're gonna find common ground with
• 54:43
  Speaker 3: someone with the feminists who've already declared like pissed all
• 54:46
  Speaker 3: over the territory and declared it theirs. Okay, so what's
• 54:50
  Speaker 3: your common ground to agree with them? Don't try to
• 54:52
  Speaker 3: find common ground with feminists, guys.
• 54:54
  Speaker 2: Don't try to find here's here's here's a clue.
• 54:57
  Speaker 3: If a group of people tells you that the a
• 55:00
  Speaker 3: group of people you belong to use rape and violence
• 55:02
  Speaker 3: to subjugate women, there's no common ground to be found.
• 55:05
  Speaker 2: The only common ground is to jail all men.
• 55:09
  Speaker 1: Yeah, okay, so finding common ground despite the polarization, there
• 55:13
  Speaker 1: are promising pathways towards more productive dialogue, recognized shared goal.
• 55:18
  Speaker 4: Both movements ultimately seek freedom from restrictive gender expectations.
• 55:23
  Speaker 1: Then it's fight against stereotypes limiting women, while many and
• 55:27
  Speaker 1: men's movements resist narrow definitions of masculinity that damage men's
• 55:31
  Speaker 1: well be.
• 55:32
  Speaker 3: What they mean by narrow definitions of masculinity is recognizing
• 55:35
  Speaker 3: that men have any value. Yeah, I mean, there's there's
• 55:40
  Speaker 3: a difference between expecting men to justify their existence by
• 55:45
  Speaker 3: sacrificing for state. But that's not like what the feminists
• 55:51
  Speaker 3: did is they took an issue that men face, which
• 55:54
  Speaker 3: is that they are expected to sacrifice in order to
• 55:57
  Speaker 3: earn their value as men. And then and they said, well,
• 56:01
  Speaker 3: if you just sacrifice your manhood instead, then everything would
• 56:06
  Speaker 3: be fine. If you just sacrificed any desire to be
• 56:09
  Speaker 3: viewed as being good, that would be fine. And then also,
• 56:14
  Speaker 3: you know, assume the mantle of being the criminal gender
• 56:17
  Speaker 3: that's evil and uses rape and domestic violence to engage
• 56:21
  Speaker 3: in or uphold patriarchy. And it's not just that men
• 56:25
  Speaker 3: are convicted of these things more, which, by the way, guys,
• 56:29
  Speaker 3: conviction means who we are empowered to punish for their actions,
• 56:34
  Speaker 3: who we want to punish for their actions. It doesn't
• 56:36
  Speaker 3: mean who's actually taking those actions, because there's a lot
• 56:40
  Speaker 3: of sexual violence directed towards men that never ever will
• 56:44
  Speaker 3: see the light of day in a police station, like
• 56:47
  Speaker 3: they'll never be reported. But regardless, like it's so, convictions
• 56:51
  Speaker 3: only represent the fact that men are willing to hold
• 56:54
  Speaker 3: other men accountable, and unfortunately, it doesn't look like women
• 56:58
  Speaker 3: really are consistently willing to Otherwise you'd think that someone
• 57:02
  Speaker 3: like me wouldn't be universally ostracized by the Sisterhood.
• 57:05
  Speaker 2: The Sisterhood would.
• 57:06
  Speaker 3: Say, oh, of course you hold other women accountable, you're
• 57:09
  Speaker 3: a sister in good standing because we all do that. No, instead,
• 57:13
  Speaker 3: I seem to be target target a number un for
• 57:17
  Speaker 3: a lot of shit from the Sisterhood. But anyway, let's
• 57:20
  Speaker 3: let's keep going.
• 57:21
  Speaker 1: All right, Well, I think that one thing that I'll
• 57:25
  Speaker 1: just say about this is that when it says many
• 57:27
  Speaker 1: and men's movements resist narrow definitions of masculinity that damage
• 57:31
  Speaker 1: men's well being, I think that they should be asking
• 57:34
  Speaker 1: who is defining masculinity in this context, because it's not
• 57:40
  Speaker 1: other men.
• 57:41
  Speaker 4: Like that's the thing.
• 57:43
  Speaker 1: Like when they'll say they want to be free from
• 57:45
  Speaker 1: the gender restraints, and it's like, yeah, it sounds good,
• 57:48
  Speaker 1: then you go, well, ladies, what do you want? And
• 57:50
  Speaker 1: the women will basically say, no, I want a big,
• 57:52
  Speaker 1: strapping lumberjack guy with a beard that works like a
• 57:56
  Speaker 1: fucking you know, like has big ass hands, Like they
• 57:58
  Speaker 1: want a manly man. Like no, there's no getting around that.
• 58:03
  Speaker 1: You can't like come up to a woman and say, well,
• 58:05
  Speaker 1: how about this guy that's like, you know, he's little
• 58:07
  Speaker 1: on the slim side, like eats a lot of soy
• 58:09
  Speaker 1: and like he's really polite and kind and you know,
• 58:12
  Speaker 1: and all of these other qualities. The truth is is
• 58:16
  Speaker 1: that men are not really allowed to define what masculinity
• 58:21
  Speaker 1: is if they want to pair up with women like
• 58:23
  Speaker 1: we have to like and this is what feminists have
• 58:25
  Speaker 1: been trying to do.
• 58:25
  Speaker 4: That's what the whole toxic masculinity thing is about.
• 58:28
  Speaker 1: It's about trying to find a way to make men
• 58:30
  Speaker 1: into the social man, which is basically the subservient man,
• 58:35
  Speaker 1: the man that you know works in this sort of
• 58:37
  Speaker 1: like you know, stateless communist utopia and he's very agreeable
• 58:42
  Speaker 1: and all of that, and then pretending like women are
• 58:46
  Speaker 1: just gonna like that without ever asking women what they like.
• 58:49
  Speaker 4: And that's the problem.
• 58:50
  Speaker 1: It's like it is a conundrum that can't be answered,
• 58:54
  Speaker 1: and that's why feminists will never answer it.
• 58:56
  Speaker 4: They'll just insist that men do it and then just
• 58:59
  Speaker 4: pretend like women are just going to.
• 59:00
  Speaker 1: Agree when women that are regular are going to be like,
• 59:03
  Speaker 1: I don't like that. And we've seen this over and
• 59:05
  Speaker 1: over again, like this is not something that you can
• 59:09
  Speaker 1: make an argument against, like, oh, well men should be
• 59:12
  Speaker 1: liberated from that. Well yeah, maybe, But like the thing
• 59:15
  Speaker 1: is that if those men want to attract a women,
• 59:17
  Speaker 1: a woman that might not work for them. In fact,
• 59:20
  Speaker 1: in most cases it won't. So this is the thing
• 59:23
  Speaker 1: that we have to contend with, is that.
• 59:28
  Speaker 2: Desires.
• 59:29
  Speaker 1: You got to change women's desires. You got to make
• 59:32
  Speaker 1: men desirable to women the average man. And the problem
• 59:35
  Speaker 1: with the feminist project is that it is not making
• 59:39
  Speaker 1: men attractive to women if men follow those rules. And
• 59:42
  Speaker 1: I don't think it's meant to I think it's meant
• 59:44
  Speaker 1: to make men disgusting to women so that they won't
• 59:48
  Speaker 1: want to date them well.
• 59:49
  Speaker 3: And in regardless of the attraction that whether or not
• 59:52
  Speaker 3: feminism actually makes men attractive to women, it's a repulsive
• 59:57
  Speaker 3: narrative on its face.
• 59:59
  Speaker 1: It is because it means that men need to like
• 1:00:02
  Speaker 1: shed that about themselves. Yeah, even if you even if
• 1:00:05
  Speaker 1: you like even if you accept that framing that idea
• 1:00:10
  Speaker 1: that men should be liberated from their and their narrow
• 1:00:13
  Speaker 1: definition of masculinity, you're not accounting for the fact that,
• 1:00:16
  Speaker 1: first of all, maybe it's not that narrow, So that's
• 1:00:19
  Speaker 1: kind of a straw man. But the other side of
• 1:00:21
  Speaker 1: it is is that maybe like in that range of
• 1:00:23
  Speaker 1: masculinity where men feel comfortable, it's also a place that
• 1:00:27
  Speaker 1: women feel comfortable. Yeah, maybe you're going.
• 1:00:30
  Speaker 3: Against that, Yeah, and yeah, it just it basically, well, honestly,
• 1:00:34
  Speaker 3: it just comes down to this. They don't want any
• 1:00:37
  Speaker 3: recognition that men in masculinity have unique traits and unique
• 1:00:41
  Speaker 3: value propositions to give women and society, full stop. They
• 1:00:45
  Speaker 3: just don't want to recognize that because that means that
• 1:00:48
  Speaker 3: women don't have those things, or at least don't have
• 1:00:51
  Speaker 3: them as much. Right, And I can tell you there's
• 1:00:54
  Speaker 3: a lot of things that I'm seeing that women obviously
• 1:00:58
  Speaker 3: don't have, like, for example, some kind of innate desire
• 1:01:01
  Speaker 3: to police the opposite of their own sex for their
• 1:01:05
  Speaker 3: behavior towards the opposite sex. And I know that for
• 1:01:09
  Speaker 3: a fact because if there was that desire, someone like
• 1:01:13
  Speaker 3: me who is actually policing women's behavior towards the opposite
• 1:01:18
  Speaker 3: sex wouldn't be so universally reviled. So that's one thing
• 1:01:23
  Speaker 3: that men do and women don't. They're willing to hold
• 1:01:26
  Speaker 3: other men accountable for their behavior towards women, and people
• 1:01:30
  Speaker 3: are like, oh my god, you don't. What about Gislaine
• 1:01:34
  Speaker 3: or Gizelle, the.
• 1:01:35
  Speaker 2: Woman in.
• 1:01:37
  Speaker 3: France. Well, if it weren't for a bunch of male
• 1:01:41
  Speaker 3: policemen who investigated when she when she wasn't even aware
• 1:01:47
  Speaker 3: she was losing like three to four days a week.
• 1:01:50
  Speaker 3: They investigated, and they found out what was happening, and
• 1:01:53
  Speaker 3: they protected her. So why aren't you looking at that
• 1:01:57
  Speaker 3: the state, which is supported by men's efforts to hold
• 1:02:02
  Speaker 3: women accountable, the whole justice system protected her when she
• 1:02:07
  Speaker 3: was apparently unable to protect herself because she was the
• 1:02:10
  Speaker 3: type of person who could lose three to four days
• 1:02:13
  Speaker 3: worth of time a week and not really be not
• 1:02:16
  Speaker 3: really noticed. So you know that men protected her. And
• 1:02:20
  Speaker 3: if it weren't for men, this would still be happening.
• 1:02:22
  Speaker 3: And believe me, if it wasn't a femtopia, it would
• 1:02:25
  Speaker 3: still be happening because she would have found some sexually
• 1:02:28
  Speaker 3: aggressive woman to be in a relationship with, because that's
• 1:02:32
  Speaker 3: the way it usually goes. You usually find the same
• 1:02:36
  Speaker 3: kind of partner that you left. That woman would be
• 1:02:39
  Speaker 3: raping her unconscious body with a bunch of others sexually aggressive,
• 1:02:43
  Speaker 3: like sexually monstrous women, and that would never have been
• 1:02:47
  Speaker 3: found out because there would have never been a woman
• 1:02:50
  Speaker 3: a police force to investigate the crimes in the first place.
• 1:02:54
  Speaker 3: And if she ever found out, she'd probably be more
• 1:02:56
  Speaker 3: likely to be shamed by the sisterhood and be told, oh,
• 1:03:00
  Speaker 3: you're just trying to trying to make the sisterhood look bad.
• 1:03:03
  Speaker 2: Okay, So the ultimate goal ultimate.
• 1:03:04
  Speaker 3: Point of that is men engage in altruistic punishment towards
• 1:03:08
  Speaker 3: other men. And this is even statistic, This is even
• 1:03:11
  Speaker 3: in studies that men are more prone towards altruistic punishment
• 1:03:15
  Speaker 3: that I mean sacrificing in order to uphold the laws
• 1:03:18
  Speaker 3: of society, sacrificing themselves in order to uphold the laws
• 1:03:21
  Speaker 3: of society, and they have an instinct towards it, and
• 1:03:24
  Speaker 3: it's not something I see in women.
• 1:03:27
  Speaker 2: Okay, all right, running out of time, So that's okay.
• 1:03:30
  Speaker 1: Step two or bullet point two, focus on research based approaches,
• 1:03:35
  Speaker 1: grounding discussions and empirical evidence rather than anecdotes and stereotypes
• 1:03:40
  Speaker 1: can help bypass ideological divides. Good luck with that, I mean,
• 1:03:46
  Speaker 1: So okay, when you say research based, are you saying
• 1:03:48
  Speaker 1: that we should only be citing academic papers that are like,
• 1:03:52
  Speaker 1: peer reviewed and not ideological, signed by feminists that already
• 1:03:56
  Speaker 1: agree with each other like they're all like. Because that's
• 1:03:59
  Speaker 1: the problem with academia is that most of the work
• 1:04:02
  Speaker 1: there is like cited by feminists and co signed by
• 1:04:06
  Speaker 1: other feminists, and other feminists write papers based on the
• 1:04:10
  Speaker 1: papers that other feminists wrote, and it just goes. It's
• 1:04:12
  Speaker 1: a giant circle jerk of content that all just happens
• 1:04:15
  Speaker 1: to agree with itself. So if we're gonna do research
• 1:04:19
  Speaker 1: based empirical evidence, then maybe we should be open to
• 1:04:22
  Speaker 1: new evidence and also like analyzing the evidence presented, because
• 1:04:28
  Speaker 1: like just going with whatever academia says is how we
• 1:04:31
  Speaker 1: got like the you know, Title nine and dear Colleague
• 1:04:34
  Speaker 1: letter and Mary costs and which and the wage gap
• 1:04:38
  Speaker 1: and these other things that just won't die, these myths
• 1:04:41
  Speaker 1: that just won't die.
• 1:04:42
  Speaker 3: Yeah, Okay, I just I'm running out of time, So
• 1:04:45
  Speaker 3: let's do it.
• 1:04:46
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I know, I know, Okay. Acknowledge complexity. Gender issues
• 1:04:49
  Speaker 1: aren't zero sum. Improvements for women aren't necessarily come at
• 1:04:52
  Speaker 1: men's expense, and vice versa. Many issues like mental health stigma,
• 1:04:55
  Speaker 1: family court reform, and workplace flexibility would benefit all genders
• 1:04:59
  Speaker 1: when addressed.
• 1:04:59
  Speaker 3: Thought, Oh isn't that Yeah, they would, but they never
• 1:05:02
  Speaker 3: will be because that will require challenging the movement that's
• 1:05:06
  Speaker 3: all about women's equality and only women's equality. Yeah, okay,
• 1:05:10
  Speaker 3: promote moderate voices.
• 1:05:12
  Speaker 1: Platforms that elevate moderate, solution focused thinkers from both movements
• 1:05:16
  Speaker 1: can help counterbalance more divisive content.
• 1:05:19
  Speaker 3: You guys decide which which You didn't even quote anybody
• 1:05:23
  Speaker 3: from the men's rights community on this. You decide who
• 1:05:26
  Speaker 3: you focus on. God, this is such a bunch of
• 1:05:29
  Speaker 3: mealy mouthed bullshit.
• 1:05:31
  Speaker 1: Yeah, moderate, what's moderate? Like you mean people who are
• 1:05:35
  Speaker 1: like kind of feminist, Like you're gonna you're gonna bring
• 1:05:40
  Speaker 1: on the guys with the softest voices that don't have
• 1:05:43
  Speaker 1: like that are like more agreeable, and then you're gonna
• 1:05:46
  Speaker 1: call that progress.
• 1:05:48
  Speaker 4: I mean, maybe you'll make some baby steps.
• 1:05:50
  Speaker 1: Maybe, but I'm kind of done with the mealy mouthful.
• 1:05:55
  Speaker 2: Yeah I'm not.
• 1:05:56
  Speaker 3: I'm never going to find common ground with a group
• 1:05:59
  Speaker 3: of people that assert that men use rape and domestic
• 1:06:02
  Speaker 3: violence to uphold society. Yes, that's what they mean with
• 1:06:06
  Speaker 3: prop Like, what common ground can I find with them? Well,
• 1:06:10
  Speaker 3: I guess it's okay to jail them all for the
• 1:06:13
  Speaker 3: horrible harms that they've done to the world. Just jail
• 1:06:15
  Speaker 3: all men, but you know, can let them out on
• 1:06:17
  Speaker 3: Saturdays or we can. Where do you go with that?
• 1:06:21
  Speaker 3: It's already extremism of the most foul and depraved sort. Okay,
• 1:06:27
  Speaker 3: let's see what they say about the path forward?
• 1:06:29
  Speaker 4: Right?
• 1:06:31
  Speaker 1: The path forward? Psychologist Terry Reel suggests the most productive
• 1:06:35
  Speaker 1: approach is one that holds space for both men's and
• 1:06:38
  Speaker 1: women's struggles without minimizing either. We need a both and
• 1:06:42
  Speaker 1: approach rather than an either or thinking. Promising examples of
• 1:06:47
  Speaker 1: bridge building already exists. Organizations like Promundo work internationally to
• 1:06:51
  Speaker 1: promote gender equality by engaging men and boys alongside women
• 1:06:55
  Speaker 1: and girls. Their research demonstrates that programs addressing harmful masks
• 1:07:00
  Speaker 1: the norms benefit everyone, reducing violence and improving relationships. Oh weird,
• 1:07:04
  Speaker 1: only stuff addressing harmful masculine norms. Ah, that's interesting. Similarly,
• 1:07:09
  Speaker 1: some feminist scholars have incorporated men's issues into their analyzes,
• 1:07:13
  Speaker 1: recognizing that patriarchal structures hurt men too, though through expectations
• 1:07:18
  Speaker 1: of emotional stoicism, pressure to pre primary breadwinners and other
• 1:07:23
  Speaker 1: restrictive norms.
• 1:07:25
  Speaker 2: Are you fucking kidding me?
• 1:07:26
  Speaker 3: Do you really think emotional stoicism, pressure be breadwinners and
• 1:07:30
  Speaker 3: other restrictive norms is worse than Shawnny? You use rape
• 1:07:35
  Speaker 3: to uphold patriarchy on your sister, like the shit that
• 1:07:40
  Speaker 3: me that feminists say about men, getting rid of all
• 1:07:43
  Speaker 3: of the positive recognition of men's traits in society, teaching
• 1:07:48
  Speaker 3: generations of kids that men are our boys are actually
• 1:07:52
  Speaker 3: girls being suppressed by patriarchy, all right, and that when
• 1:07:56
  Speaker 3: boys behave in ways that aren't like girls, you can
• 1:08:00
  Speaker 3: get in there and dope them up with things that
• 1:08:03
  Speaker 3: are actually causing things, like them to lose an inch
• 1:08:06
  Speaker 3: of growth and have more psychosis, because obviously they should
• 1:08:11
  Speaker 3: be acting like girls. Like, there is nothing that patriarchy
• 1:08:16
  Speaker 3: has done to men except maybe conscription, all right, but really,
• 1:08:21
  Speaker 3: feminists some more puss supported that with the white feather campaign.
• 1:08:25
  Speaker 3: There's nothing that patriarchy has done to men that compares
• 1:08:28
  Speaker 3: to the absolute loathsome shit that feminism does to men's
• 1:08:33
  Speaker 3: identity when it promotes the idea that men are primarily
• 1:08:37
  Speaker 3: defined by oppressing women and being criminals. Right, So, okay,
• 1:08:44
  Speaker 3: patriarchy is like, yeah, be a bit stoic when things
• 1:08:46
  Speaker 3: go wrong in your life. Feminism's like, you want to
• 1:08:50
  Speaker 3: use rape to make the world go round, which is worse,
• 1:08:53
  Speaker 3: which is worse for men's mental health, And how do
• 1:08:57
  Speaker 3: you freaking find common ground with that crap.
• 1:09:00
  Speaker 2: Okay, yeah, all right.
• 1:09:03
  Speaker 1: Conclusion, the relationship between feminism and the manosphere reflects broader tension.
• 1:09:08
  Speaker 1: This is written by AI reflects broader tensions in a
• 1:09:12
  Speaker 1: society undergoing rapid change. While some elements of both movements
• 1:09:16
  Speaker 1: contribute to polarization, their core concerns often stem from legitimate
• 1:09:20
  Speaker 1: experiences and grievances. By recognizing the humanity and valid perspectives
• 1:09:25
  Speaker 1: on all sides, focusing on evidence based solutions, and creating
• 1:09:29
  Speaker 1: spaces for nuanced dialogue, Oh this makes me cringe, we
• 1:09:33
  Speaker 1: can begin to move beyond polarization towards a more collaborative
• 1:09:37
  Speaker 1: approach to gender issues. The way forward lies not in
• 1:09:40
  Speaker 1: declaring one movement right and the other wrong, but in
• 1:09:43
  Speaker 1: developing a more inclusive conversation about how gender affects everyone's
• 1:09:47
  Speaker 1: well being and how we might build a society that
• 1:09:50
  Speaker 1: allows all people to thrive, regardless of gender.
• 1:09:53
  Speaker 3: Okay, that's nice. You know, the rebels need to just
• 1:09:57
  Speaker 3: surrender their guns to the Empire and all will be well.
• 1:10:00
  Speaker 3: The Empire will genuinely consider their issues. Now, I just
• 1:10:04
  Speaker 3: I have my grab bag of nuts. We can go
• 1:10:06
  Speaker 3: through really quick here. Sure, so the first.
• 1:10:10
  Speaker 1: Thing, send me the links individually, because you just.
• 1:10:12
  Speaker 2: Said and individually.
• 1:10:16
  Speaker 3: So let's look at what the femosphere has been up to.
• 1:10:20
  Speaker 3: Let's look at this the economist. Maybe you guys will
• 1:10:25
  Speaker 3: notice something a little bit crazy. There you go, there's
• 1:10:28
  Speaker 3: the link.
• 1:10:29
  Speaker 2: I'm gonna cue up the second one.
• 1:10:32
  Speaker 1: I'm bringing it up right now. Just give it a
• 1:10:34
  Speaker 1: second load.
• 1:10:35
  Speaker 2: All right, here we go. All right, what no, the
• 1:10:40
  Speaker 2: economists go ahead.
• 1:10:41
  Speaker 4: Yeah, I got it right there.
• 1:10:42
  Speaker 1: For decades, a big story on education has been the
• 1:10:44
  Speaker 1: ascent of girls. They now outperform boys in most subjects,
• 1:10:48
  Speaker 1: but one subject remains a problem. So wait, a problem.
• 1:10:52
  Speaker 4: Girl so falling behind in math?
• 1:10:54
  Speaker 1: So so wait, women are killing it.
• 1:10:57
  Speaker 4: But because boys are doing better in math, that's a problem.
• 1:11:00
  Speaker 3: Yes, ok, yes, nomen are doing Girls are doing better
• 1:11:04
  Speaker 3: in every other subject. But the only problem one is
• 1:11:07
  Speaker 3: the one in which boys are doing better. And what
• 1:11:09
  Speaker 3: they're gonna do is they're gonna get it so that
• 1:11:11
  Speaker 3: girls are doing better, and then they're gonna forget the
• 1:11:13
  Speaker 3: whole thing. Equality. Equality, This is what happens.
• 1:11:17
  Speaker 4: Gender issues aren't zero.
• 1:11:18
  Speaker 2: Some yeah, no, they're not zero some.
• 1:11:21
  Speaker 3: Oh no, We're just only gonna look at the situation
• 1:11:24
  Speaker 3: when girls are disadvantaged. We're never gonna look at the
• 1:11:28
  Speaker 3: situation with boys are disadvantage because you know, we got
• 1:11:31
  Speaker 3: that lovely theory about how boys are privileged by patriarchy,
• 1:11:35
  Speaker 3: and any disadvantage is uh is a patriarchy hurting men too.
• 1:11:39
  Speaker 3: And also if they complain about it, it's backlash. You're
• 1:11:41
  Speaker 3: not gonna get anywhere with men's issues with these talking
• 1:11:45
  Speaker 3: points that feminists use and also their focus, and this
• 1:11:48
  Speaker 3: is just egregious, like it's it's unjustifiable. And this is
• 1:11:53
  Speaker 3: the attitude of the femosphere right, and this is the
• 1:11:56
  Speaker 3: at and the femosphere again compared to the manosphere. The
• 1:12:00
  Speaker 3: memosphere is Mount Everest and the manosphere is a yurt or.
• 1:12:04
  Speaker 3: The femosphere is the dark death star and the manosphere
• 1:12:08
  Speaker 3: is e Walk village. There's no comparison. They control media,
• 1:12:14
  Speaker 3: or at least they have more significant influence in media.
• 1:12:17
  Speaker 3: They have significant influence in academia. These are an uncontrovertible, uncontroversial,
• 1:12:22
  Speaker 3: uncontroversial statements. You just have to look at academia, Look
• 1:12:26
  Speaker 3: at the women's department. Where's the men's department? Look at
• 1:12:29
  Speaker 3: the government. There is the women's organization, where's the men's organization.
• 1:12:34
  Speaker 3: Look at UN women, But where's the UN men?
• 1:12:36
  Speaker 1: No?
• 1:12:37
  Speaker 3: Right, Look at all the stuff that's taught in schools.
• 1:12:39
  Speaker 3: Do they ever teach about men's issues. They sure as
• 1:12:42
  Speaker 3: they'll teach about patriarchal oppression of women. Right, it's everywhere.
• 1:12:47
  Speaker 3: It's institutional. And the femosphere is the death Star, and
• 1:12:51
  Speaker 3: the manisphere is an ewalk village in the sides of
• 1:12:55
  Speaker 3: the death Star. And if we ever win, it's only
• 1:12:58
  Speaker 3: because they come to our territory and stay stupid ship,
• 1:13:04
  Speaker 3: and we defeat them easily with logic and reason and
• 1:13:07
  Speaker 3: research that they haven't actually corrupted entirely. And also like
• 1:13:12
  Speaker 3: logs on ropes.
• 1:13:14
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I was gonna say, don't forget the pungy sticks
• 1:13:16
  Speaker 1: and the and the.
• 1:13:17
  Speaker 2: Logs, yeah exactly, okay, and the song.
• 1:13:21
  Speaker 1: At the end and the cannibalism. I don't know, but yeah,
• 1:13:26
  Speaker 1: you don't know that.
• 1:13:27
  Speaker 2: Maybe they're.
• 1:13:30
  Speaker 1: The Jedi, the you know, huh.
• 1:13:32
  Speaker 2: There. They were chiropractic. Their their their ritual.
• 1:13:35
  Speaker 3: Practices involved extreme forms of chiropractice, and they were yeah,
• 1:13:40
  Speaker 3: you know, they were.
• 1:13:41
  Speaker 2: I don't okay, sorry, you and women, all right.
• 1:13:45
  Speaker 4: You and you and women.
• 1:13:47
  Speaker 1: Men's rights groups say they support men, but often blame
• 1:13:50
  Speaker 1: hashtag feminism for male quote disadvantage end quote, framing men
• 1:13:55
  Speaker 1: as victims of hashtag equality. See how they fit into
• 1:14:00
  Speaker 1: the hashtag manosphere. And then there's a link with a definition.
• 1:14:03
  Speaker 1: I guess let's find out if they're right. This is
• 1:14:06
  Speaker 1: un women men's rights activists often take an academic tone
• 1:14:10
  Speaker 1: to claim that feminism and women's rights to vote, to education,
• 1:14:15
  Speaker 1: to leadership positions have disadvantaged men. Mr A. Preachers suggested
• 1:14:20
  Speaker 1: aliety is ginocentric, that is dominated by feminine interests.
• 1:14:26
  Speaker 3: Like we say that that what the economists just did,
• 1:14:30
  Speaker 3: which is to say, well women are but girls are
• 1:14:34
  Speaker 3: killing it in every single subject except math, and we
• 1:14:36
  Speaker 3: need to focus on math because all we care about
• 1:14:38
  Speaker 3: is girl's equality. You know, we don't look at the
• 1:14:41
  Speaker 3: whole sphere, a whole landscape. That's what we call out,
• 1:14:45
  Speaker 3: and we aren't even You don't even need to use
• 1:14:47
  Speaker 3: academic rigor to do it. You just have to say,
• 1:14:50
  Speaker 3: how is that equality? How are you promoting equality here?
• 1:14:54
  Speaker 1: Already you're really ready to ask the question what is equality?
• 1:14:57
  Speaker 1: Because you're still using it wrong?
• 1:15:00
  Speaker 3: Yeah, but MRA Preachers, so you and women casts our
• 1:15:05
  Speaker 3: side of the our side of the not even a
• 1:15:08
  Speaker 3: side of the conversation, right, because there is women's issues,
• 1:15:12
  Speaker 3: and then there is believing that men use rape and
• 1:15:15
  Speaker 3: domestic violence to uphold their privileges, which aren't the same thing. Okay,
• 1:15:21
  Speaker 3: There is an ideological view of the world in which
• 1:15:24
  Speaker 3: all we have to care about are women's issues because
• 1:15:27
  Speaker 3: the patriarchy means that men's issues don't need to be addressed.
• 1:15:30
  Speaker 3: And then there are the actual issues that women face, right,
• 1:15:34
  Speaker 3: and there are actual issues that men face, okay, and
• 1:15:37
  Speaker 3: we actually can't deal with either if we're using them
• 1:15:41
  Speaker 3: to promote an ideological narrative. So last, last, last one, I.
• 1:15:45
  Speaker 1: Got a super chatch.
• 1:15:47
  Speaker 2: I read that later, Yeah, sure.
• 1:15:53
  Speaker 3: It uh read it now? All right?
• 1:15:57
  Speaker 4: I got Dan de Philippo.
• 1:15:58
  Speaker 1: Thank you. Dan gives ten dollars and says feminism has
• 1:16:02
  Speaker 1: three fundamental ways it can be understood. One party of
• 1:16:05
  Speaker 1: single women. Two women are entitled to veto power of
• 1:16:08
  Speaker 1: what is permissible masculinity and not reverse. Three women have
• 1:16:12
  Speaker 1: no agency. They have all the power and yet have
• 1:16:15
  Speaker 1: no power. All right, So next, thank you for that, Dan,
• 1:16:20
  Speaker 1: And if you guys want to send us a message,
• 1:16:22
  Speaker 1: you can do a super chat or you can go
• 1:16:23
  Speaker 1: to feedbagel dot com force slash just a tip to
• 1:16:25
  Speaker 1: send us a super chowt my eyes on those in
• 1:16:29
  Speaker 1: the event that they may show up. So anyway, all right,
• 1:16:33
  Speaker 1: here is the next one. Of course, this is from
• 1:16:36
  Speaker 1: ZME Science Doctor, how the manisphere is radicalizing young men.
• 1:16:41
  Speaker 3: Okay, but this is just one example of an absolute
• 1:16:44
  Speaker 3: fuck ton of articles calling out the manosphere. And they're
• 1:16:48
  Speaker 3: choosing apparently that according to the Psychology Today an article,
• 1:16:53
  Speaker 3: there are moderate voices in the manisphere, right, but this
• 1:16:57
  Speaker 3: is what they choose to focus on, how the manisphere
• 1:16:59
  Speaker 3: is radicalizing young men, radicalizing them to what to push
• 1:17:04
  Speaker 3: back on the feminist assertion that young men use rape
• 1:17:09
  Speaker 3: and domestic violence to uphold patriarchy, pushing back on the
• 1:17:13
  Speaker 3: feminist assertion that only ever looking at women's issues, women
• 1:17:17
  Speaker 3: and girls' issues is actually equality.
• 1:17:20
  Speaker 2: Like what are they pushing back on?
• 1:17:21
  Speaker 3: And this is this is the funny thing, like we
• 1:17:24
  Speaker 3: see this everywhere in the media, this kind of stuff.
• 1:17:27
  Speaker 3: So what is the Psychology Association going to do about that?
• 1:17:32
  Speaker 3: I mean, they're saying that both sides have a point,
• 1:17:35
  Speaker 3: we both need to talk to each other. Are you
• 1:17:37
  Speaker 3: going to call out the mainstream media on one taking.
• 1:17:41
  Speaker 2: A side on this.
• 1:17:43
  Speaker 3: Are you going to recognize the power that they have
• 1:17:46
  Speaker 3: to shape the narrative around these issues? Are you gonna
• 1:17:50
  Speaker 3: Are you gonna acknowledge the fact that, yeah, sure we
• 1:17:53
  Speaker 3: exist and we continue to exist incidentally because you guys
• 1:17:57
  Speaker 3: support us, feed the badgery dot com slash support.
• 1:17:59
  Speaker 2: But we exist and we continue to push back.
• 1:18:02
  Speaker 3: But we sure as hell aren't privileged by any platform
• 1:18:05
  Speaker 3: in terms of our message. Okay, And it's because we
• 1:18:09
  Speaker 3: take aim directly at the heart of the monster, like
• 1:18:13
  Speaker 3: directly at the heart of the command and control narrative
• 1:18:16
  Speaker 3: at the.
• 1:18:17
  Speaker 2: Bottom of all of this, which is feminism.
• 1:18:20
  Speaker 3: I've said, because I call out feminism, sometimes people are like, oh, communism, communism. Okay,
• 1:18:26
  Speaker 3: Russia was communist, Russia is now not communist, feminist, the
• 1:18:32
  Speaker 3: human race is feminist. We may not be feminist in
• 1:18:36
  Speaker 3: the future because we won't be. Feminism is going to
• 1:18:40
  Speaker 3: make us extinct. We can recover from communism, we cannot
• 1:18:44
  Speaker 3: recover from feminism. And I don't mean equality or economic
• 1:18:50
  Speaker 3: opportunities for women or not liking women being beaten. I
• 1:18:53
  Speaker 3: mean narratives like men use rape and domestic violence to
• 1:18:58
  Speaker 3: uphold society. How long do you think we're gonna have
• 1:19:02
  Speaker 3: a society when we promote that to everybody in it?
• 1:19:06
  Speaker 3: How long are we gonna have a future, and how
• 1:19:08
  Speaker 3: are we gonna get men and women together to produce
• 1:19:10
  Speaker 3: babies to make that future under this kind of shit?
• 1:19:14
  Speaker 3: And again, what happened was there was a bunch of
• 1:19:18
  Speaker 3: feminist academics. They found a wide open field when it
• 1:19:21
  Speaker 3: came to the relationship between.
• 1:19:23
  Speaker 2: Men and women and what it means.
• 1:19:25
  Speaker 3: They've squatted in that field and they brought out a
• 1:19:28
  Speaker 3: whole bunch of shit that has never been properly peer reviewed,
• 1:19:32
  Speaker 3: never been held to any standard of rigor, and honestly,
• 1:19:36
  Speaker 3: was just the nastiest crap that they could possibly conceive
• 1:19:39
  Speaker 3: of to pin on men identical inform and content to
• 1:19:44
  Speaker 3: the kind of propaganda we direct against an enemy nation
• 1:19:48
  Speaker 3: or enemies within our own borders.
• 1:19:52
  Speaker 2: And nobody has.
• 1:19:53
  Speaker 3: Called them out until now, and they continue to not
• 1:19:57
  Speaker 3: listen to us, to ignore us. We're not i talk
• 1:20:00
  Speaker 3: to psychology today. We're not invited to talk to these
• 1:20:04
  Speaker 3: media outlets because they're afraid of what we have to say,
• 1:20:10
  Speaker 3: because we destroy the entire underpinning of all of their bullshit. Okay, Okay, yeah,
• 1:20:17
  Speaker 3: that's true. Okay, so I will do the things unless
• 1:20:20
  Speaker 3: Brian wants a few more minutes to do a conclusion.
• 1:20:23
  Speaker 1: Well, no, I mean, like I think we pretty much
• 1:20:27
  Speaker 1: got to it. I mean yet at the end of
• 1:20:29
  Speaker 1: the day, like feminism doesn't have solutions, it just has
• 1:20:33
  Speaker 1: goals that grasping more power and money and sort of
• 1:20:35
  Speaker 1: like cementing itself. I think the reason why these articles
• 1:20:38
  Speaker 1: are coming out is because they are losing men. And
• 1:20:41
  Speaker 1: it's not you know, I know that you brought up
• 1:20:43
  Speaker 1: like the Democrats spending like twenty million, but this is
• 1:20:46
  Speaker 1: bigger than that. This is bigger than a political party.
• 1:20:48
  Speaker 1: This is like a vibe shift everywhere and it's men
• 1:20:53
  Speaker 1: all over the world like waking up. And that's what
• 1:20:56
  Speaker 1: they are afraid of. And I think that they should
• 1:20:59
  Speaker 1: be because because they're going to lose control over the narrative.
• 1:21:03
  Speaker 1: The myth, the historical myth of feminism is going to die.
• 1:21:08
  Speaker 1: And I think that it's just a matter of time.
• 1:21:11
  Speaker 2: Yep, hopefully.
• 1:21:13
  Speaker 1: Well, yeah, I know people are not as optimistic as me,
• 1:21:17
  Speaker 1: but I don't see how it can go anywhere else.
• 1:21:20
  Speaker 3: A human race has gotten through worse things. I think
• 1:21:23
  Speaker 3: it can overcome feminism. And again I'm not talking about
• 1:21:26
  Speaker 3: you know, educational opportunities for women or economic quality. Like,
• 1:21:30
  Speaker 3: women have always had educational opportunities, maybe not the same,
• 1:21:35
  Speaker 3: maybe it was different kind of education. They've always had
• 1:21:38
  Speaker 3: economic opportunities. Women have always been able to find a
• 1:21:42
  Speaker 3: place in a society that was reasonable.
• 1:21:44
  Speaker 2: They've always be to negotiate that.
• 1:21:46
  Speaker 3: From every society that I've seen, women have been able
• 1:21:49
  Speaker 3: to negotiate a good position for themselves. You know, what
• 1:21:52
  Speaker 3: a surprise, they're the mothers of that society. But you
• 1:21:57
  Speaker 3: know what I'm talking about is delicitly the hatred. You
• 1:22:01
  Speaker 3: know what, It could be indifference to women asserting that
• 1:22:04
  Speaker 3: men use rape and domestic violence to uphold patriarchy. That
• 1:22:07
  Speaker 3: could just be indifference. That could just be making alarmist
• 1:22:11
  Speaker 3: statements in order to sell something, but it's still, at
• 1:22:14
  Speaker 3: the end of the day, is pretty hateful to assert.
• 1:22:17
  Speaker 2: So that's what I call out.
• 1:22:19
  Speaker 1: Yeah for se all right, so I got a rumble rant. Wow,
• 1:22:25
  Speaker 1: rumble rant from Nova Pan twenty one gives a dollar
• 1:22:27
  Speaker 1: and says, remember when chewe had promoted communist men claiming
• 1:22:31
  Speaker 1: they are positive for men? What a joke? Well, that
• 1:22:34
  Speaker 1: rumble rant can I.
• 1:22:35
  Speaker 2: Say something about that.
• 1:22:36
  Speaker 3: There's something I think conservatives need to understand this, because
• 1:22:39
  Speaker 3: when I talk to communist men and communist women, I
• 1:22:41
  Speaker 3: get completely different attitudes. Communist women want a freebee, they
• 1:22:46
  Speaker 3: want a free ride, they want someone else to do
• 1:22:48
  Speaker 3: things for them, and they want more cushioning when they
• 1:22:51
  Speaker 3: make they fuck up their lives. Like I was just
• 1:22:54
  Speaker 3: recently listening to a video where a bunch of women
• 1:22:57
  Speaker 3: who have almost one hundred thousand dollar student debt are
• 1:23:01
  Speaker 3: calling out capitalism about how and I'm like listening this
• 1:23:04
  Speaker 3: and I'm thinking, you're using that word wrong. You don't
• 1:23:07
  Speaker 3: mean capitalism, you mean accountability, right, you don't want accountability
• 1:23:11
  Speaker 3: for your choices. And then you find out that these
• 1:23:14
  Speaker 3: women who are all against capitalism are using their money
• 1:23:18
  Speaker 3: to go on like European vacations and do expensive events,
• 1:23:23
  Speaker 3: self promoting events, and it's like, okay, right, women who
• 1:23:27
  Speaker 3: are communists are communists because they want freebies, they want
• 1:23:33
  Speaker 3: to have their They don't want to have to make
• 1:23:35
  Speaker 3: an effort or take responsibility. In my experience, and this
• 1:23:38
  Speaker 3: is not true about all men, but it's more likely
• 1:23:41
  Speaker 3: that when a man is a communist, he wants a
• 1:23:42
  Speaker 3: purpose you know, he feels defeated by the confusion of
• 1:23:46
  Speaker 3: the world and he wants a purpose, something to work for.
• 1:23:49
  Speaker 3: It's very different attitude, and I think maybe to really
• 1:23:53
  Speaker 3: understand how to heal people from communism, you have to
• 1:23:57
  Speaker 3: understand the difference. Men need a purpose, women need a
• 1:24:00
  Speaker 3: slap in Rynecraft.
• 1:24:04
  Speaker 1: Okay, So basically Nazi men are just looking for a purpose. Yeah, okay,
• 1:24:11
  Speaker 1: all right, as long as we're on the same page,
• 1:24:12
  Speaker 1: because that's basically the same kind of statement, it doesn't
• 1:24:15
  Speaker 1: make anymore controversial there.
• 1:24:17
  Speaker 3: But yes, they're looking for a purpose. Is LAMI perris
• 1:24:21
  Speaker 3: are looking for a purpose. All of these men who
• 1:24:24
  Speaker 3: engage in violence are using violence to find a purpose.
• 1:24:29
  Speaker 3: They're they're they're using the monopoly, of course, to find
• 1:24:32
  Speaker 3: a pose.
• 1:24:34
  Speaker 4: They're looking for meaning.
• 1:24:35
  Speaker 2: They're looking for.
• 1:24:36
  Speaker 3: Meaning, and which is why you know, you you talk
• 1:24:39
  Speaker 3: about Nazis, you talk about white nationalists, but there's a
• 1:24:41
  Speaker 3: lot of those men, as you've brought up yourself, that
• 1:24:45
  Speaker 3: are multiple things that are self contradictory. So they'll be
• 1:24:50
  Speaker 3: a part of I don't know.
• 1:24:51
  Speaker 2: These Lama nations.
• 1:24:52
  Speaker 1: They'll be in the KKK for a week and then
• 1:24:54
  Speaker 1: they'll be an Islamo fascist for a week and then
• 1:24:57
  Speaker 1: they'll be a Black Lives Matter Antifa.
• 1:25:00
  Speaker 3: Yeah, sure, yeah, And it's all because they have These
• 1:25:04
  Speaker 3: young men have one thing, and that is the monopoly
• 1:25:07
  Speaker 3: of violence that men have, and they are attempting to
• 1:25:10
  Speaker 3: use that.
• 1:25:10
  Speaker 2: One thing to find a purpose.
• 1:25:12
  Speaker 3: And we don't want that. So yes, if we could
• 1:25:15
  Speaker 3: fix that, we would also fix the extremist white nationalists
• 1:25:22
  Speaker 3: fix it all because their purpose should be in helping
• 1:25:26
  Speaker 3: create a society that is functional, comfortable, safe, and you know,
• 1:25:30
  Speaker 3: has a bit of an edge, so there's something adventurous
• 1:25:32
  Speaker 3: to it, but it's not. It's going out and destroying
• 1:25:36
  Speaker 3: shit in every capacity. Every single one of the extremist.
• 1:25:41
  Speaker 2: Narratives that have young men going out.
• 1:25:43
  Speaker 3: Into destroying shit is exploiting the same problem, which is
• 1:25:46
  Speaker 3: that young men are not finding purpose in participating in
• 1:25:50
  Speaker 3: civil society. It's all of them, all right, all right,
• 1:25:55
  Speaker 3: So if you want to send a comment at any
• 1:25:57
  Speaker 3: time after the show is over, you can do so.
• 1:26:00
  Speaker 3: Feed Badger dot com slash just the tip. If you
• 1:26:02
  Speaker 3: want to support us, feed the Badger dot com slash support.
• 1:26:05
  Speaker 3: It's all in the low bar as well, And if
• 1:26:07
  Speaker 3: you want to join our community, Badger Nation dot Online.
• 1:26:09
  Speaker 2: It's discords. You've got to be able to do that again.
• 1:26:12
  Speaker 3: All in the low bar and I'll hand it back
• 1:26:14
  Speaker 3: to you Brian to take us out.
• 1:26:15
  Speaker 1: All right, Well, if you guys like this video, please
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  Speaker 1: Yeah? Yeah, So anyway, and please share this video because
• 1:27:02
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• 1:27:03
  Speaker 1: on today's episode of Maintaining Frame and we will talk
• 1:27:06
  Speaker 1: to you guys in the next one.
• 1:27:07
  Speaker 6: Men's right activists are machines, dude. Okay, they are literal machines.
• 1:27:13
  Speaker 6: They are talking point machines. They are impossible to fucking
• 1:27:17
  Speaker 6: deal with, especially if you have, like, especially if you
• 1:27:19
  Speaker 6: have like a couple of dudes who have good memory.
• 1:27:21
  Speaker 6: On top of that, too, holy shit, you're fucked