Latest / Mythmakers / Come Back, Saruman! - LOTR: An Author's Journey, Bk 3 Ch 10

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Come Back, Saruman! - LOTR: An Author's Journey, Bk 3 Ch 10 · Mythmakers

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  Hello and welcome to Mythbakers. Mythbakers is the podcast for fantasy fans and fantasy
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  creatives brought to you by the Oxford Centre for Fantasy. My name is Julia Golding and
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  today we are continuing our author's journey through Lord of the Rings and we have reached
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  chapter 10 in the two towers which is the chapter called The Voice of Saraman and it pretty
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  much describes the main part of this chapter in that title. It's an unusual chapter because
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  it's really dedicated to one single conversation with a very short top and tail and there's
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  also a couple of interesting things in this chapter revealing Tolkien's method as a writer,
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  particularly the unexpected gift of the Palantir but more of that later. Okay so we start
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  with the friends so we are in the presence of Paragon, Gimli, Legolas, Mary and Pippin going
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  through the archway and looking out upon what is a post-battle landscape, no doubt familiar to
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  many people in Europe at the time of writing both from the first and the second world war.
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  I noticed for example the detail he picked out about being gloomy pools remained covered with
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  scum and wreckage which sounds like the sort of landscape left by the battle of the sun.
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  So again that presence, the haunting behind Lord of the Rings of the two great world wars
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  continues in this chapter and Gandalf is the one who sets out the agenda he says I must pay Saraman
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  a farewell visit dangerous and probably useless but it must be done. So when you've got a chapter
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  like this with a defeated enemy where is the tension going to be? After a battle the actual
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  negotiations to conclude a war are less exciting aren't they? So what do you do? And what talking
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  does in this case is he inserts some tension by saying there still is a risk and Pippin is the
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  one who puts the question he literally says what's the danger and this is on page 182 if you're
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  following in a three volume version. What's the danger? Would he shoot at us and pour far out
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  the windows or can he put a spell on us from a distance? So that could be read in a number of ways
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  maybe if he's being a bit lighthearted because Gandalf immediately claps back by saying the last
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  is most unlikely if you ride to his door with a light heart but there is no knowing what he can do
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  or may choose to try a wild beast cornered is not safe to approach. The idea of him being a wild beast
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  is picked on a bit later where Gandalf talks about him gnawing over the ends of his old plots
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  and he's also described as a serpent reeling to strike and then there's another image of
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  wormtunk and Saraman gnawing at each other so this idea of him turning feral bestial is running
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  through this chapter and then Gandalf concludes Saraman has powers you do not guess beware of his voice
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  so that's the main danger. So going forward we got the representatives of the nation to actually
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  step forward to speak to Saraman. Mary and Pippin stay behind feeling out of it and very often
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  talking does this so that you get a sense of spectators on the events of great people that's really
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  the stance of the hobbits in this whole drama they are the little people looking at the events
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  of the great people around them though of course they have a key role to play themselves
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  but it's summed up in the sentence Mary and Pippin sat on the bottom step feeling both
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  unimportant and unsafe keep on playing that note of tension. Okay so there's been a big build-up
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  to Saraman and his voice so what do we actually get when Saraman comes on the scene? So this is the
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  introduction to the voice suddenly another voice spoke low and melodious it's very sound and enchantment
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  so it's a lot of space given to the effect of this voice on those around them a whole paragraph
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  I was reminded by of a line in the film The King's Speech the one starring Colin Firth where
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  Colin Firth is watching the King in that case is watching a news reel with his family of
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  Hitler speaking and I think it's the young Queen the young Elizabeth says what's he saying Daddy
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  and the King says I don't know that he's saying it very well and I think that's what's going on
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  with Saraman it doesn't really matter what he says it's the way he says it that's hypnotic and powerful
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  so unfortunately we do have real world examples of people who have the voice that cast a spell
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  but here it's super charged with magic but there is a weakness in it and this is explored in the
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  introduction to the voice which is when he turns his attention elsewhere he becomes sort of you
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  can see through him it's a juggler's trick but the key thing is that none rejected it's please
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  in its commands without an effort of mind and will and I think this is a major theme in Lord of
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  the Rings that really the battles here aren't happening by people sacrificing themselves on the
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  battlefield though that is part of the greater picture the most important victories of those
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  where mind and will prevail most importantly of course over the ring but here is another example
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  of when it's important to stand up so what does Saraman say well he does that classic thing
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  of someone who's in the wrong he blames everybody else for causing that problem remember he sent
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  out his army but now it's as though he he was just they were just taking a Sunday walk
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  everybody else is thought and he also pretends that he really wanted an alliance with Theoden
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  his speech here has a weird echo actually he says much have I desired to you know speak to you
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  Theoden and that much of I desired echo's gladriel with the ring strangely but another thing going
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  on here is theoden is silent so going back to that point about tension we may have decided
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  that Theoden is actually quite a good egg by now but we need to plant some doubt and how talking
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  does it is he shows the effect of the speech on the weaker men around Theoden so other men of
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  Rohan are falling under this spell they are susceptible and Theoden is silent so we as a reader
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  are left thinking oh no don't tell me he's going to fall at this last fence and so we wait to find
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  out his verdict before we hear his verdict we've got two interventions we've we've got gimli's
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  plain speaking so gimli is not at all interested or listening to these poisoned words
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  and up he stands it was gimli the dwarf who spoke in broken suddenly the words of this wizard
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  stand on their heads he growled gripping the handle of his axe in the language of all thank help
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  means ruin and saving means slaying and that is plain but we do not come here to beg
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  he's absolutely right the words are standing on their head and Simon when you get his first hint
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  of a crack it builds up this talking is doing that rule of three where there's like one intervention
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  done another then third and and see how it builds there's a little crack here but he pulls himself back
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  he so there's a fleeting moment when his voice was less suave and then he flatters gimli
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  and turns back to Theoden and Emma who is now proving himself to be the leader he's going to
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  become he also proves Jew hearted he says so with the trapped wolf speak to the hounds if he could
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  idea of this sermon turning into a beast is even found here in Emma's words
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  and the crack is bigger now so Simon snaps back with an insult young serpent obviously you know
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  insulting is that projection thing of insulting someone else with what you really are
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  and he also adds in the answers of threat saying you are you better be friends with me because
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  the answer on your doorstep and then he goes on to say you know you're no better than me in fact
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  you're worse because you come here stained with murder you in your houses you're always fighting
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  and so do do many a politician who blame those who they have wronged
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  this look around around the world and you will see it happening even today
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  so we get here Theoden's answer comes next and it is heavy and deliberate and you get the sense
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  of the weight is shifting through the repetition of we will have peace comes three times
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  and he says we will have peace yes we will have peace and again we will have peace you hold out
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  your hand to me and I perceive only a finger of the claw of Mordor he doesn't even add up to a
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  single hand he's just one claw and that's when Simon really loses his temper he's no longer the
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  great wizarding control of himself he is afraid battered version of his old self and he shows his
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  colours and he sets off into this dire tribe about what is the house of ale when he says it is
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  a little band of gallipers and so on where their brigands drink in the reek and their brats roll
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  on the floor among the dogs a thatched barn now I think that line reads really well it's got some great
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  sort of sounds in it insulting someone listen to the sound of what you say as well as the content
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  thatched barn where brigands drink in the reek and their brats roll on the floor among the dogs
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  so he's he's quite good at coming up with insults is Saruman Gandalf is now Saruman's next
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  that target and Gandalf's really not having much truck with this attempt by Saruman he says I've
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  you got things you want to on say to me and Saruman has only one throw of the dice left if he can't
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  persuade Gandalf to his side he knows that his situation is dire and so he gives this greatest
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  exertion of the power and how talking conveys this because the actual words themselves are hard to
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  wait with that he tells you what the effect is on other people listening and even Theoden is
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  driven to doubts everybody else feels like they heard the gentle remonstrance of a kindly king
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  with an airing but much loved minister Saruman is here still trying to assert he's the head of the
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  council and Gandalf is in a way his supplicant final throw turns up no no dice because we get this
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  classic thing Gandalf laughed remember we were talking in other chapters about how the laughter
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  of Gandalf the laughter of the good is a very important power of its own and it breaks the spell
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  here it's not a sneering laughter it's a laughter founded on kindness and goodness and we get
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  Gandalf laughed the fantasy the fantasy that he would give into Saruman vanish like a puff of
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  smoke he makes Saruman into the king's jester so he's no longer the king he's but a fool
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  and he reverses the offer rather than come up he says won't you come down
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  and we see here one of those key moments golem has a moment where he pivots maybe he will choose
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  the good there is a spreef moment here for Saruman we see the anguish of a mind in doubt and he
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  hesitates but unfortunately for him the beam goes down on the other side pride and hate
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  for conquering him he is now unable to reach for self control that's all gone shot
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  and the thing here is she's what Gandalf is saying because Saruman is unable to trust
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  the good can imagine how evil feels about their situation but the evil can't imagine that the good
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  might be merciful they can't send them mind that way as Gandalf says the treacherous are ever
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  distrustful and he tries to give reassurances but Saruman who would not stand by those reassurances
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  himself he refuses to believe it this is where we see what he's actually thinking he says oh
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  you're so very kind yes Gandalf is actually being kind because Gandalf's key quality is mercy
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  and he goes so far as to tell Saruman what I'm offering you is freedom you can even go to
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  Mordor if you want and this totally sends it's the heaping the burning coals on the enemies head
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  by being kind to them if you think he about it in biblical terms Saruman's voice becomes a scream
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  so it's lost all swarveness and even in the screamed comments he betrays himself because he
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  mentions a small ragtag at Gandalf's back he's been looking at the hobbits trying to work out
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  what they're doing there so he's about to storm off and then we get this very big moment for
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  Gandalf a moment of assuming power he says come back Saruman and he's still looking at the fall as
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  if he is pitiful he's still even at this moment of command he's pitying him but he does give
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  one of those sort of great statements which is I am Gandalf the white who has returned from death
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  there is no getting away from it that this is a biblical echo the great I am statements that
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  go through John's gospel Tolkien is well aware that he is doing this subcreator fragments of
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  or reflections of what he regards as the true myth of the story of Christ and of course coming back
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  from the death there is a resurrection theme he's been sent back to complete his work
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  Tolkien would explain this as being an echo of the trueer story which he believed in sincerely
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  but he's sort of reflecting those values throughout his work and this is one of the things I found
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  very helpful as a creative so if you've got some kind of deeply held faith or belief or worldview
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  you don't have to do a sort of didactic version of it you don't have to go even as far as C.S. Lewis
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  where you're doing a sort of almost he calls it a supposal but it's clearly more closely plotted
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  on the the resurrection story with Aslan being a kind of Christ figure here Tolkien is doing
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  similar but it's it's further removed he's still telling that story but it's in a different echo
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  chamber it's a different version so he's not trying to set up a new gospel at all but he's just
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  saying in this world which is still ruled by the kind of God and mercy that I believe in this is
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  the kind of thing that would happen so you can put what you care for dress it up in a new way
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  but it's still fundamentally is holding to it the same hope and love and charity all those things
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  in the form of Gandalf who is a new creation under in Tolkien's world so I found that really helpful
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  for myself because being a person who has belief that I didn't want to be stuck doing sort of you
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  know wanted to feel creatively free and this is a way I found that opened that door to be creatively
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  free to invent my own sorts of myths that reflect a true myth that I believe in moving on from
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  that Gandalf cements everything that's probably not a very wizardly word he backs everything up by
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  breaking the staff the staff here is a signal of office but it's also something he channels his power
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  through so the two things it's like removing someone's weapon breaking somebody's sword it's a
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  similar kind of thing but within the wizardly world of course it is a staff now this is where we
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  get another little final flourish that's of interest in this chapter one tongue throws an object
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  out of the window a palantir which is notable we get essentially being different from everything else
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  because it manages to chip and damage or thank on its passage down unlike the ends who are barely
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  able to do anything to that building so that if you're thinking about what might be able to
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  damage that building it's sort of maybe the it comes from the same kind of people who built it
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  or even an older older generation so that sort of thought might be planted also we get a glimpse
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  of it having a heart of fire now fire doesn't sound good does it that sounds hot it sounds
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  potentially wicked not a wicked object of itself but it's been turned to wicked purposes as we
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  later find out but the funny thing about this and the way that Tolkien's world seems terribly
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  well worked out is that he allows ideas to come to him in the process of writing and he will
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  fold it into the wider story so that it feels as though it should always have been there and he
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  goes back and he rewrites or threads it through so it feels as though it was always there in the history
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  I find that when I'm plotting if I'm plotting a murder mystery for example which I write quite a
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  lot of I will sometimes look back through the manuscript and find things which I hadn't thought of
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  as a clue but I turn them into a clue by reading back and looking for how they'd been placed
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  so just picking up what Tolkien thought about the planter he says in a letter to W.H.
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  Auden poet I knew nothing of the plantery though the moment the author's stone was cast from
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  the window I recognised it and knew the meaning of the rhyme of law that had been running in my mind
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  seven stars and seven stones and one white tree these rhymes and names will crop up
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  but they do not always explain themselves it's as though he's in a way not exactly a passenger
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  in his own story but it is that one full moment in creativity where you do feel like you're riding
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  a horse that's rock-bolting away with you and of course that little ditty will come not long after
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  it's in another book but yeah it's in in terms of the timescale it's a night or so later
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  where Gandalf is reciting this little rhyme to Pippin when they're riding for Gondor
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  we also should just note that there is an off note buried here which bears fruit in the next
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  chapter which is Pippin is the one who picks it up and Gandalf's quite quick to say I didn't
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  ask you to touch that Pippin has been notable for dropping stones and doing things when he
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  shouldn't he is the curiosity that killed the cat type character so it is right that it's him and
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  it sets up some problems for the next chapter unusually here Gandalf spends some time explaining
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  himself do you remember that when he rode in a great haste to get the horns from Tribid when
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  the hobbits ask him where he's been he says you know I'm back that's that's all you need to know
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  where I've gone now I'm back and rides off clearly he was at haste but here he actually stops and
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  explains his strategy and he also explains the mindset of Saruman he says he will not serve only
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  command so going back to Tolkien's Catholic faith again a very important image about Christ is
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  that he's a servant king the washing of the feet of his disciples and so on
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  Gandalf himself has come to serve not to command he says I do not wish for mastery so it's another
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  reason why Gandalf is a fragment of a Christlike figure in this book and Saruman is like a fallen
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  angel if we're looking for biblical parallels he's like the Lucifer in this book once was good
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  and has fallen into evil and then we get some other little notes as a way of winding up our
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  surgeon with the ends we get quite a chatty legolas you know he's he doesn't say very much
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  quite often but he he starts chatting to Tribid and he makes the bargain that he will come back and
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  visit Fangorn Forest after the end of these events but with Gimli and there's this
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  the obviously Tribid isn't that keen on someone who carries an axe but he's reassured when
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  legolas says his axe is not for trees but for organics so already Tolkien is looking to
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  beyond the end of the story to have that friendship with its post end of the ring section which
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  we'll see in the final chapters and we get some comedy so the the atmosphere is lightning up
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  if you watch the extended edition of Lord of the Rings what they do here was Saruman
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  he Saruman was a bit muffed in the film because they didn't have time for him and I know that
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  annoyed Christopher Lee greatly but at this point Saruman falls is pushed off roof by worm tongue
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  and falls onto a sort of um like a piece a device a sort of wheel with spikes and it I don't
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  like that I mean okay you need to get rid of your bad guy if you're not going to go back to the
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  shire at the end but how much better is it to have this idea of Saruman sort of lurking behind
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  his doors being slight a bit of a threat and we find out that he remains a threat and that he is
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  his death is in a way the last of them anyway so I can see why you do that as a filmmaker but
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  give me Tolkien's version of this so going back to the we haven't got somebody spiked on a
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  horrible um engine thing here we've got Saruman going back in doors and his punishment being having
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  to live with worm tongue Tolkien puts here a sort of sweet moment with the ence where tree beard worries
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  that he's getting hasty because he's made friends and he has very sweetly put his rhyme of law
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  about the hobbits right next to the ence so you get the tall people the tall creatures and the
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  small creatures together which sort of shows their bond which is rather sweet and the ence are left
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  as the jailers of Saruman um they're going to keep him contained for the moment but of course he
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  still does have what his one tooth left he does have his voice and we'll see that that has a final
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  bite in it at the end of the third part of well at the end of return of the king anyway so that's
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  the end of that chapter and we've got planted in here the seeds of what happens in the next
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  because we have the palantir on our hands and we'll find out what happens next very soon thank you very
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  much for listening thanks for listening to myth makers podcast brought to you by the oxford center
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  for fantasy visit oxford center for fantasy dot org to join in the fun find out about our online
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